The Sabrina Zohar Show - 47: Conflict/ resolution in dating and why the cool girl doesn’t exist with Matthias J Barker and Masha Kay!!

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by Matthias J Barker and Masha Kay to go over how important conflict is in dating, steps for resolution and why the 'cool girl' doesn't exist. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work Podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, ah, another week, another week. I love podcast days. It's just my favorite. I have been fucking swamped this week, y'all. I was in L.A. and I recorded with John Kim, the angry therapist. I'm going to be on his podcast.

He's going to be on Do the Work in a couple of weeks. I am so amped about that. I ended up hanging out with a bunch of other people. I did two more podcasts. So I'm just so excited to see. the community is growing and I'm just as always so fucking grateful to you guys. Thank you, thank you, thank you, everybody so, so, so much for all the support. Thank you to everybody for rating the show. Please don't forget if you haven't rated the show, it takes about all of two seconds. You just go to

the top of Spotify and you press the three buttons. It says you post rate show, leave it five stars. And that's it. And you can auto download it so it shows up on your feed every week. And then same with Apple. You go to the bottom. You can read it. It just helps me so much because then I can keep doing this. And again, I know that we have ads. I know that this is new, but that is how I can continue to show up for you guys and give you episodes every week and make them free for you. I'm starting in 2024, which is fucking crazy to say. We're going to have a subscription base. So you're going to get ad free and two to four bonus episodes a month.

It's going to be amazing. And I can't wait to share more about it as it comes closer. But for now, I'm teasing it and we're creating courses. I'm revamping everything, guys. So 2024 is going to be huge. So don't forget, join the email list. follow along on all the socials. Everything's in the show notes.

And yeah, you could be part of it. So today, guys, we have a really fucking incredible, like one of my favorite episodes probably ever. I have Matthias J. Barker and Masha. We did a trifecta episode on conflict, conflict resolution, and why the cool girl doesn't exist. Because I think it's such a huge fallacy these days of, like, conflict is a bad thing. And you shouldn't be angry and you shouldn't have a fight with people.

And it's like conflict is one of the quickest ways to grow intimacy with somebody. is if you can move through things effectively, I'm not saying you should have a conflict relationship, but if you do have it, there's nothing to be scared of. This is a place of growth and a place of, you know, learning yourself, learning your voice, and I'm so excited. So the episode is Meet Tea. And we're going to have Matthias back for a solo with me and him,

just the two of us. But I just was so excited to have Masha part of it because the nervous system is such a huge part of conflict. And Matthias is such an incredible psychotherapist, so I think it's going to be amazing. Now, guys, don't forget, do the work. is the discount code if you go to software wear software.com is my baby it's my clothing line i started after my mom got sick it literally feels like a cloud and you guys get 20% off your first purchase at wear software

com and if you use the code do the work it's sustainable it's made in the u.s completely 100% made in los angeles um it's the softest thing you'll ever feel it's a fabric nobody has and it's something that is my heart and fucking soul and i am so so grateful thank you to everyone who's ordered sales have been through the roof and it's just my heart is so full because i you guys all get a piece of me And I'm just so grateful. So without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it. And guys, as you always know, anything you ever need is in the show notes. If you want to work with me, ask me a question.

I'm going to be doing that until the end of the year. Like I said, next year, everything is changing. So if you want to work with me, this is the time because one-offs are not going to be as available and readily accessible. It's going to be packages. So all right, guys, everything in the show notes as usual. Without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it. Oh my God, Matthias and Masha. This is literally my dream come true to have you.

both here. Welcome to do the work podcast. I am so excited. Masha already on audience knows you. Matthias, our audience may or may not, but I am just so excited. Thank you both so much for being here. Yeah. Thank you so much. Of course. All right, Matthias, can we go first? Can you introduce yourself who you are, what you do, and just share with our audience how amazing your work is so that they can start to really listen because I think they need to. Oh, that's kind. Well, yeah, I'm Matthias. I'm a psychotherapist, um, licensed in Washington living in Tennessee right now. And, uh, yeah, I specialize in working with trauma and really the two things I focus in on the most are healing relationships and healing trauma. And those really often go hand in hand. I specialize in something called complex trauma,

which are the kinds of wounds that we gather when we're young kids. And so that could be because of like shame in school and bullying and like trying to be included and figure out who we are amongst friends. Um, often that has to do with parents and our attachment relationship. to mom and dad, also sibling trauma. So, I mean, that's where I spend a lot of my time, especially in my clinical work with clients, but also my public work. I talk about things all mixed in throughout all that. So, yeah, that's what I do.

Sweet. Yeah, I'm so excited because I think today what we're going to talk about is just so important, which is like conflict, resolution, repair, having a voice, being able to feel safe with your partner and understanding the difference between conflict and toxicity in a relationship. So I'm excited to hear your thoughts. And then, Ms. Masha, if you want to just introduce yourself for people that haven't listened to you up to this point. Yeah, I honestly, before I introduce myself, I know you guys kind of know me a little bit.

I have to fan girl like a tiny bit, Matthias. When Sabrina told me I was going to be talking to, I think I lost it for like, for like a day. I was like, Sabrina, I need, I need a moment. Please leave me. But truly, truly like what I do, you are such a huge inspiration. I just had to say this before. I was even on the phone, my mom before this and her and I love you. We send your videos back and forth.

She's like, are you going to tell him that you've sent me like a thousand of his video? I'm like, yeah, my husband said the same thing. He's like, dude, should I show us? him how many videos of him? You're like, no, we're good. I'll leave that. But I just have to say, I hope you don't mind me too long to do this. I just have to say there is something so incredible about your content and like, yes, you're incredibly intelligent and you speak so eloquently. But there is, there's a warmth and a compassion in your content that truly, like, I feel like you watch a video and you're like, well, I feel, I feel seen. Yeah. I feel really understood. And like,

I feel loved. And I said this to my mom and she's like, yes. Yeah. That's. it that's really and it's so special and it's so unique and in like what we're doing I feel like it's so important so I just have to say that I'm so just thankful you shared that it just warms my heart I'll second that I will just gonna piggyback because Matthias you are the people that we need you are the people that this world needs to understand you can come up from a place of compassion and understanding but also setting boundaries and understanding yourself and I think what your work is is beyond important now because there's too much clickbait, there's too much bullshit, there's too much do this to get that.

All that's doing is avoiding what you're trying to have people do. And so that's why we're both just so grateful to have you here. Well, I'm so grateful. What a kind and just encouraging things to say. To be honest, so much of the content online has been born not just out of my client's lives and just like the conflicts I've seen them navigate, walking them, you know, through stuff as a therapist, but also just my own life. Like, I just know firsthand how stressful and exhausting, like really important relationships in disarray are, whether it's a spouse, whether it's a parent, a sibling.

Like, these are the kinds of things that linger in the back of our minds and distract us from everything. We're trying to hang out with our kids. We're trying to, like, work at our job. We're trying to just, like, enjoy a Saturday night. But we can't because there's this thing weighing over the top of our heads. And so, yeah, the, I don't know, the opportunity to get to speak into this in people's lives is an honor, certainly. Masha, can you introduce yourself, though? I'm sorry, I was back.

I totally took the conversation. Oh, Chuck. My name is Masha. I'm a nervous system and breathwork coach, and I tend to work with high achievers, helping them to move towards their goals and to having more fulfillment in their lives. And really, in my own journey, recognizing the role the nervous system played in that, in achieving your goals and being the creator of your life, these beautiful things that everyone talks about, not realizing the role of the nervous system.

And once I dived into that, realizing the role of trauma and relationships in that, And so that tends to be the bulk of my work and why I'm so honored and excited to be here on this episode. Well, you guys both, I mean, single-handedly, the two of you have helped me more than, like, most things have because I came from a place of not understanding the nervous system, not understanding my childhood traumas, having the traditional therapists. So how do you feel? Oh, okay, well, thanks so much for sharing. But not really understanding for so long. I was truly just like on repeat, dating my dad, dating my dad, gaining the validation, not understanding what was going on, being so disconnect. from myself being so triggered, I couldn't even get through my days, and now understanding

so many aspects of, oh, wait, this is how the nervous system works into it. This is how I reparent myself. This is how I show up for myself. That has helped me more between the two of you more than probably anything. And so that's why I'm stoked to talk today about the importance of conflict in relationships, conflict resolution. And so it's like there's this one coach, I don't poo-poo people specifically, but I will just say there's one specific coach. And in her bio, It says like 17 years married, not one fight. And whenever I look at that, the first thing I feel is that's fucking bullshit. That's inauthentic.

That can't be real because I love my partner. Don't get me wrong. Tech guy and I have been together a year now. We don't have fight. I've never cursed at him. I've never screamed at him. But we have very serious conversations that have sometimes been, hey, like, are we breaking up? Like, what are we doing here?

Can we have a conflict? Can we resolve that conflict? Can we talk about it? And so, Matthias, I'd love to hear your thoughts. And then, Masha, after I want to hear how the nervous system also plays into this. But the importance of conflict in a relationship of, can we like normalize that it's okay for one partner to be upset with somebody and say, hey, I don't love the way you said that. That actually really hurt my feelings. Could you next time say that like this?

And that would make me feel a little bit more supported. But I'd love to hear your thoughts of working with people and seeing ignoring conflict or facing it and how that really does impact a security. healthy relationship. Well, I mean, the first thing I think of when I'm talking to a couple, like in my clinical practice, who's like, yeah, we don't really fight, we're doing fine, but we're not feeling distant. Sorry, we are feeling distant. We're not feeling really connected. We feel like the romance has left our life. But, you know, we don't fight. I just think about the role of vulnerability and how vulnerable and scary it can be to bring up really tender emotions like loss and sadness, shame, fear, anger, like these sorts of things that are often kind of what arouses a fight, what kind of

increases volatility, people have lots of different experiences with, like something I like to start out sessions with sometimes with couples. It's just like, tell me how your parents expressed sadness, shame, or fear. Tell me how people in the family expressed those emotions. And then what was the consequence? Was that like received and warm and like you could have helpful dialogue around it? or was that something that got you rejected that kind of got you like the silent treatment was that something that increased volatility maybe even to the point of violence like what was it like when your parents expressed it if they ever did and then when you expressed it and what i usually find with not just other people but myself it's like man we usually fall in one or two camps it's either

they're shut down and there's like we push it all underneath the surface like there's some sort rejection or pushing away, or there's volatility and attack and insults and tearing each other down. Like, our negative experience has fallen to one of those two camps. Either it left us further apart or it left us in harm's way. And so when I'm talking to couples like, oh, I don't want to bring up the fight. I think first thought is like, well, yeah, we're nervous about things for a reason because we've seen how things go wrong. And so then we have to kind of rewrite the script.

We have to get back down to the basics to the root and be like, all right, what is conflict meant to do? Like, what is the overall goal here? Like, no one's going to sign it up for therapy and feel really excited just to like learn some conflict resolution skills without zooming out even a little further and being like, what's the overarching goal? Like, why go through all the hassle of this? And, I mean, people would answer that question differently. I think for a lot of folks, it's to feel genuinely intimate and close. and excited to be around my partner, to feel like, I don't know, life is full of hard things and it's full of suffering and frustration and exhausting difficult puzzles and being able to bring

that to your person to feel like you don't have to hold all this alone is part of the quality of what makes up a good life. And that's worth fighting for, not fighting them for, fighting together for. And it's you and your partner against whatever obstacle is getting in your way. It's not you and your partner against each other. So that's 10,000 feet up

how I start to approach it. One day, you're negotiating with suppliers. The next, you're installing a shelf in the back room. Running a business means moving in many directions all the time. TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human.

How are you both? Oh, I love that because I think for me, my sister and I spoke recently about, where'd you learn this? And that was kind of every time I'll say something, she'll be like, where'd you learn that from? And it took me a long time to be like, dad, growing up, what did I see? Narcissistic father, people pleasing mother. Any time my mom would go to my dad of like, even, hey, Yuri, that was it. Just any need went, that's it. So what did I learn?

You'd be a good girl. Don't you open your mouth. You're going to get hit. You're going to get screamed at. Dad's going to leave you. So I automatically went. Every single person's going to leave me if I have need. So let's just omit everything.

I have no issue. The cool girl. I have no issues. I have no problems. Then you get into a relationship. And it's because like Mosh has been with her partner since they were in high school. So she's been with her partner for a long time as an extensive understanding of conflict and resolution. I'm now been with my partner for a year learning, just understanding different conflict.

And now have learned to your point, we're a team together. And if I can't come to you and say, you told me to relax and I really didn't appreciate that because that actually triggered me to feel like I. was not valid for having emotions because you were trying to quell me. Next time, I'd love it if you say regulate. And his response has always been, thank you for telling me. If I didn't know, I would have to read your mind. I appreciate the clarity. Yeah, yeah.

Wow. Beautiful way to just be able to communicate. Masha, your experiences as well with the nervous system, that I think, because especially we have to remember a lot of the people listening to this are in the early dating phases. Some people are in relationships, but a lot of people are, you know, like in that world of, I just met this guy and, you know, it's only been five dates. I don't want to say anything. how does that affect the body throughout?

Yeah, I think that's a great point. But everything both of you said, I think, is so important to think about. But I think with the nervous system, and maybe I'll back up and I'll speak for myself first and like kind of how I got there because sometimes the nervous system could feel so technical and like disconnected from what we're actually talking about, which is relationship. To me, it's interesting. So yeah, I have been with my partner since high school. So we're 15 years, which is kind of wild to think about.

But I will say that I think even only over the last three to four years, are we really understanding the power of conflict and how to work through it? Because I will say, if we're talking about we fall into one of two camps, we both probably fell into more of that, like, sympathetic fight than the shutdown. Because of our parents. So now that's kind of we both understand that. But because of that, we wouldn't really understand what was happening in the conflict. to like we would go into the conflict, not really understand where we're going, then we would repair, yes, to some degree, come back together, be like, no, we want to be here, we want to work through this.

But we weren't actually using conflict to go deeper to understand one another a little bit further. And it's interesting, like how long it's taking us, you know, the journey of realizing when we are engaging in conflict, there's needs that we're not expressing. We're trying to express them, but often expressing them incorrectly. and then the other person is an understanding and getting defensive. And so that's something we've really had to work on over the last five years. And it's interesting, as I say that number, that's how long I've been, you know, had my business working for myself. And so it's interesting how the growth in my relationship has really supported the growth

in supporting other people in my business in my life. It's really taught me so much about myself. And when I started learning about the nervous system, it gave like an additional layer of context for what is actually happening. Why do I feel so much energy in my body when he says something I don't agree with, right? Why does he feel that energy? He was like, he was just telling me the other day. He's like, oh, I noticed they started feeling shaky. Like, I literally start shaking, right? And it's so interesting. I'm like, okay, that's the nervous system. And we were starting to understand, you know, your nervous system has these different states

and these states aren't there to mess with your day or ruin your relationship. They're actually your nervous system, self-protecting. It's coming in trying to protect you and it's protecting you based on what happened in your childhood, in your past, right, the ways that you protected yourself then that probably worked to some degree. And by works, I mean, they kept you safe, right? And so we often revert back to those. And so I think it's so interesting to A, understand what are the different ways your nervous system might react in conflict in order to protect you, not to ruin the relationship, not to ruin your day. And then B, to start to understand what is that for your partner? I think becomes a love language, really, to really understand what's happening for them when they're

getting that reactive, what trauma is coming up, what wounds are being exposed in that moment. And I think understanding that has given us a much deeper understanding of one another. And it's created real intimacy that I think for the longest time we really wanted. And I think we tried to find in arguments funny enough. Yeah. But actually realize it's on the other side of it's worked out through that. Yeah. So well put, Masha.

That is incredible. Yeah. Yeah, this is why she does what she does, because she articulates it. You're like, thank you. But that's, I think, the quote that we had here was like, the relationship you long for is in the conflict that you're avoiding. And I, for so long, I didn't understand that because I looked at it as, again, no, I'm going to be punished.

And for probably 29 years, I'm 33, so probably 29 years of my life, I kept going with, okay, so what, dad hit us when we were kids? Like, come on, get over it. Who cares? Not understanding, wait a minute. I want this ride or die. I want somebody who loves every part of me, who accepts every part of me. Now, if I go about that, especially in the dating world, by trying to do the, let me put the mask on and let me be this girl that you want me to be, right?

Because like, I have no problem doing that. Then when the start to scratch of like, hey, so sorry to bother you, but I have a need, it felt like I was being punished for doing so. Then when I met my partner and I had to accept, wait a minute, vulnerability is a superpower. If I can't tell somebody, hey, I don't appreciate what you did or that really wasn't cool for me. I don't need to put you down. I don't need to scream at you. I don't need to belittle you. I can with confidence respond, not react and take that beat to stop and say, wait a minute, like Masha taught me, where is this in my body?

What's coming up for me? Because for a while time, and I think a lot of people, I don't know, Matthias, if you have this experience, Masha either as well, a lot of people that come to me are, I have no idea what happened in my childhood. I know, everything was fine. And usually what I'll just say is, how did you see your parents? to love each other when your mom had a need how did your dad react so you can understand because then they're like you know my mom never said anything and it's like okay cool so can we at the very least start to acknowledge that you learned this early on we're not villainizing them because they did the best they could with the information they knew but that doesn't discredit your experience yeah so good

I've just become more and more convinced over time that a relationship can only be as intimate as both people are willing to be vulnerable. Yeah. And that really is fundamentally what we're getting at is the fight is when we're almost kind of defensively concerned that if I open up in this way, I'm going to be attacked, I'm going to be used, I'm going to be rejected, I'm going to be shamed. And in large part, the reason all of that comes up is because when we have been vulnerable in the past, maybe we have experienced some of that.

Or we watch someone open up, like you're saying, like your mom, mom just shut down. Mom wasn't open and vulnerable at all, at least not, you know, front-facing to us kids. And so it kind of teaches the lesson implicitly. If you open up, you're going to threaten the relationship that you love most rather than the opposite, which is actually true, which is its opening up, it's going to bring about the relationship that you want most. But opening up in a way that is wise, that is paying attention, that is attuned, that is in proportion with someone's trustworthiness, right? So it's not just like open up the floodgates and just kind of dump all the feelings and needs on somebody and then all your wildest dreams will come true. It's not just, you know, as simple as that. It's building kind of brick by brick this relationship that's attuned to the very deep parts of both of us. And step by step, when we do kind of fumble and we do kind of preemptively get defensive or, I don't know, kind of dismiss somebody or kind of offer a judgment that's preemptive, we repair.

And that is something that we often don't see modeled as well. It's like when the toxicity does come out, as it does in all relationships, what do we do to repair? And something that I tell, especially parents of adult kids that are like, well, I just made all these mistakes, you know, for this kid's growing up and now they're adults and I've just messed them up. And I'm like, oh, well, here's the thing. Like trauma can be healed. That's the good news about all this. It's like nothing's permanent. Like you can absolutely repair, not just the internal wounds, but the relationship.

if both people are willing to be vulnerable and take responsibility for their part in offering that mutual vulnerability. I love that. Can I ask you both a question because I think it's perfect about what you're talking about? So now we understand like cognitively totally got this. But now let's say there's somebody that is early in dating and you know, we see a lot of these things of like I see whether it's clickbait or not of like people say follow your gut, follow your intuition. But if your gut is anxiety and you don't trust yourself. It's like, what do both of you advise for people if they're early in dating that are saying, I don't know what my, I don't know the difference between my gut and my anxiety. So my partner said something. The guy I'm dating said something. They'll ask for validation from other

people. Do I have the right to be angry? You know, texting 4,000 of their friends to be like, hey, does this bother you like it bothered me? I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on how can somebody that's so early in on this phase learn to trust themselves of, it's okay to speak up and have an issue with your partner versus Matthias, like you just said, of like, trombing all over them and being like, blah, everything is because of you? Is there a fine line that people can understand my needs matter and these are my needs to be able to express that versus I'm just so anxious and I can't, I don't even know how to identify what a gut reaction is versus my anxiety? Masha, do you have thoughts on that right off the cut? I actually love to hear your thoughts on that because that's why. I do. I just, I, you're the nervous system.

I just a person, but I was thinking of the system right away. I'll tell you, I'll tell you this little piece. Maybe you can expand it for me and help me get my head around it. But when I, when I think about intuition, I think like there's a few different things happening. There's arousal, you know, that's happening in the body. There's like hormonal responses. There's what's called instincts. These are like things that just happen without us even choosing for things to happen.

Like they'll happen, you know, if someone throws a baseball at you, you'll dodge, not because you thought, oh, what baseball's coming. I should lower my head. It'll just happen. And I think we have relational reflexes that are programmed into us because of experiences we had as kids. But then there's these intuitions where we're getting information from the body. And then we're trying to make sense of it in the head. And we're like, okay, I'm getting all these signals. Some of them say run.

Some of them say stay. Some of them say try to approach it and push in. Some of them are saying retreat. Which of these voices in this inter-conflict do I listen to? And which of these voices in the body are trustworthy? immature and which of them are kind of trauma-based. I have thoughts around how to, I don't know, distinguish some of those things, but does something come up for you? Yeah. No, that's a really great point. And I know, Sabrina, you and I kind of did an episode a little bit on this, but I think

you're right. There's all these conflicting parts. There's these conflicting responses within you. And I think it's very difficult to really, in that moment, be able to take, this is intuition, this is good, follow that. This is my authentic self. And this, this is my nervous system. This is my wounds, this is my trauma. And I think we kind of want it to be very black and white and very clear. And I think for most of us, especially early on and in relationship and when we're healing, and I would say we're all healing. Like in every relationship, there's like a new layer of healing that really happens. I think there's a process of understanding yourself and trusting yourself that is happening. And it's happening kind of, it's a dynamic process. Meaning it's almost like

you move towards, you notice what's happening. You get curious about it. Yeah, you might get a little disregulated. And at that point, I would say, okay, what can we do to regulate? What can we do to provide a little bit of safety for you in that moment so that your executive function, it could turn on a little bit and you could start to analyze a little bit more critically. But it's this like back and forth. And I think most of us want it to be very clear and I don't think it's clear. And so I always say it's like in that moment, you can't really know if it's intuition if you're dysregulated. If there's dysregulation happening, there might be a hint of intuition. But it's it's cloudy. You can't see it. And so I would always say, okay, what can you do to bring a little bit more safety, a little bit more, get a little bit more regulated before trying to analytically make a decision. This is right. This is my trauma.

This is my dad. This is the right person. You know, so that's kind of what I always recommend. And in that, you learn something about yourself, right? Like once you regulate and come back and kind of really sit with it, like, what was that? Was that a little bit of those past traumas kind of coming up again, that same pattern? What if that was of the past and what of that is new? What of that is just unfamiliar?

And I think in that process of pulling that apart after you regulated, I think is where you learn about yourself. And again, I also think that's kind of the magic of relationships that you get to learn about yourself in this continuous process. I can say personally, like I experienced this yesterday where my partner and I had like a rupture. It was a it was a rupture of me getting curious with him about something that's very, very, very, very, you know, know, near and dear to my heart that I needed to make sure we were on the same page about. Like, I'm talking very true non-negotiable. And I was scared to probe deeper. And what I felt in that moment, the difference for me, there's my personal experience

for to be able to differentiate between, wait, is this like a validity to this bothers me versus that anxiety thought was when he said it, instantly my thought went, no, I don't like that. That didn't make me feel good. I instantly went to, huh? And I probed further. I said, wait, wait, before I respond. can you explain to me what you meant by that statement? Because I really wanted to get cured.

Then he went on and I was like, nope, still feeling like this, still not feeling good about this comment. Then I said, just to recapitulate, really, really quick me, before I give you my response, is this what I'm hearing you say? And in that moment versus I know it's my anxiety when instantly I get completely flushed and my first response is, fuck you, I'm done. I'm out. I can't take this anymore. That child reaction, because that's my dad.

My dad was the scream, narcissistic rage, blow up and walk out of the house. And for years, I did that. You don't want, fuck you. I'm done. I don't need this because if I walk away from you, you're not going to hurt me. And that was how I've been able to differentiate between when he says, you know, hey, babe, do you want to go do this? No.

In my head, I'll be like, oh, my God, he doesn't like you. And I'm like, no, Sabrina, this is anxiety. This isn't your intuition. And I'll probe deeper. But I wanted people to at least just be able to understand, even if you've never said, hey, how does this feel in my body? Sometimes when I'm with my partner, I'll just be like, I need to use the the restroom, can you give me a second? And I'll remove myself. I did that with my brother when

we are having a fight. And I just said, okay, this is where I'm feeling it. Let me at least come back down to earth before I go out there because I don't want to say something I'm going to regret. And I think people feel like as if they're not allowed to say that, as if they have to handle the situation in the moment and they can't just say, hey, can I have a moment? Yeah. Without understanding that one moment could literally be the difference between the relationship that has a future and ending it in that moment by saying something you didn't mean to say. What you were recommending is so wise. This has actually been tested in the data, too.

So the Gottman's, there's one of the largest marriage research institutes in the world, if not the largest. They essentially, when they were looking at people arguing and going through these big, high-intensity conflicts, the best communication relationship conflict skill that came out of that study was just taking a break. And a lot of people are nervous to do that because it's like, well, if we don't talk about this now, that we're never going to talk about it. And I don't want to avoid it. I don't want to push it under the rug. And then it's like, okay, well, if you're the one who takes the break, you can, you can just assume I'm the one who needs to bring it back up.

That's fun. And I think that having a conversation with your partner before you're in some high intensity conflict and almost just laying that down as a ground rule, you know, is essentially saying, hey, it's, if we get to a place where we feel flustered, where we don't know how to react, I don't want to respond in any other way, but thoughtfully and intentionally in some of these high intensity moments. And so if I'm having trouble doing that because I'm feeling activated, because I'm feeling, right, so the language of trauma responses, of triggers, is withdrawal and volatility. That's the language of triggers. Withdraw volatility. So if I'm noticing that my instinct is withdrawal volatility, that means I need to take a break. And I need to let that simmer down.

And then what just to underline what you both saying was get curious. Where did I learn this? What's this reminding me of? And then, and I like the analogy of this kind of emotional. sobers us up because I think fear is intoxicating in the same way that taking a drink, it's like things feel bigger, things feel woozy, things feel smaller than they are. Like it distorts our vision. And so to emotionally sober up, which is to let the cortisol in our bloodstream come back

down and simmer down to a normal level to let our heart rate and our blood pressure come back into normal places, then to re-engage with something like I have a mentor. His name is Frank Anderson. His word for this is calm power. He's like the internal dial, the true north that he's looking for, is calm power. And I like that. I think that feels nice. And it's like, okay, I can come back calm but yet sturdy, principled, you know, grounded in values, not flimsy, but calm and power.

And so being able to bring that presence back into that conversation. And that on a technical level, an hour later the next day, I mean, depending on the intensity, where they looked at and tried different times between 30 minutes and an hour's enough time for, you know, the front part of your brain to come back into normal levels of activation, which typically lowers an activation when we're really flustered. And that's the part of the brain that, as you both know, that is doing things like problem solving and empathizing and trying to see from someone else's point of view, all the things you need to do in an argument, you know, so, yeah, that's that simple little, if anyone's

going to take anything from this talk today, that's what I would circle is like, take a break when you're noticing volatility or withdrawal. Yeah. Honestly, it's, you're so, you're both so right because I'll be honest in our relationship, taking a break has been the biggest game changer by far because you're right. When we're so activated, there's nothing really you can do. You can't think your way out of it. Like everything we're saying now, no one's going to be able to access when they're activated. I'd love to think like we're saying very wise and helpful and applicable things. But like the kind of analyzing and the logical component they're not going to be able to access the most they could probably access in that moment is can

I just take a break can I just pull away and I love that analogy of like sober that is I am going to be using that I'm saying you know I'm stealing that because I think that's the best way to describe regulation like when you're just regulated you are basically drug like that's what it feels like you are not in control you are not thinking you are acting in ways that you would never act when you're regulated it's so true it is sober is the perfect word for and i think pulling back taking some time and in that moment processing what's mine and what's actually us right like what am i bringing based on my past what am i projecting onto this situation how's my nervous system projecting the past into the present and then what is you know this relationship this this situation yeah and i loved how

sabrita you said that like it was this dynamic process where you're like wait let me check let me pull back I that's so wise and like me 10 years ago would be like that's impossible oh that's silly I would never in a billion years think to be like I know exactly what he meant you know I was so convinced and it's so funny I think I thought that was intuition yeah years ago I think I thought that was intuition I'm like yeah I know yeah I think a lot of us would would concede that like trying to have a big important fight about a really important topic when you were like drunk on alcohol would be a terrible idea we can all like look at oh yeah that's bad but drunk on cortisol all or like it is not as obvious. And it's really taking the time the solution is true in both cases sober up and re-engage because you need clarity. A lot of us think that what's going to solve this fight is us fixing the problem, us deciding who's right, us figuring out the solution. That's not what's going to fix it. What fixes it is building trust. Yeah, 100% landing on some sort of approach where I feel seen, heard, validated. And even if I don't get the solution that I would have just handpicked if it were just up to me, I'm like, wow, they really get where I'm

coming from and they get what's important to me. That is what's underneath every argument back right there. And like also too, I think something that is, it took me a minute personally to realize was yes, I built trust with my partner. But like even yesterday, I remember there was one moment where he said one thing. That was it. I felt my bond. I literally, you feel that. You feel that wave, almost like the drunk, as if that just hit. And I got up and I said, no. And I just screamed. And I said, no. And I just kept saying. I was like, no. And he just stood there. And he just stood there and looked at me. And I just like, took a, and I sat down and we just needed a second. And he looked and he was like, can you explain what the no meant? And I had to say, I was like, give me a second.

And I just needed to take a moment to realize, wait a minute, you're not against me. You're with me. We're a partner. We're a team. If they're, if we were being ambit. If we were being. if this entire neighbor was against us. We're the team. We're the ones. We're not against each other. And for a minute, I kept trying to say, no, I need to prove my point to you. I need you to get it. I need you to validate. And I see that usually when I see a lot of people with conflict. You know, you start to see it. It's like, I don't know you watch. I mean, my trash TV is 90-day fiance. And you'll watch it. And you know you're watching it. And you're seeing the conflict. And you're like, okay, she doesn't feel heard. This person feels. The other person doesn't feel.

You can kind of see. Then you start to see the layers of the fight happen. And you're like, wait a minute, this has nothing to do with even what we started. Now you're adding all of these other things that are getting you further away because you're coming in with ego. You're trying to defend yourself. One person is instead of stopping to say, can I get curious about my partner's experience? Because spoiler alert to everybody that's listening. While I know, I teach people often about like, hey, can we get in touch with our own needs? Like, oh, fuck, are you going to do anything? What we also need to understand is when you get in a relationship, it's not all about your needs. You're not the only person that's a priority. So, if you see your partner, if you bring something to your partner, and they have a visceral reaction, it's so crucial to have to stop for a second and say, well, wait a minute, how am I also impacting you? It's not just about me understanding and being able to stop for just a second and say, well, hey, wait, where did that reaction come from? Because if I need to take ownership, did I say something that really hurt you? Please tell me. But that's always how we've de-escalated it, because instead of coming in at, no, I need to top you, I need to one-up you, I need to keep being right.

holy shit, wait a minute, you're also going through something. This is your experience as well. Can we talk about this together? Yeah. And if I could offer like three steps that kind of encapsulate everything that we're talking about right now? Please. You know, like, really abstract, like, oh my gosh, I have to remember all these different things. Here's like condensed down the three steps.

If you're taking notes watching this, you can write this down, memorize it. One, you're going to start with a gentle word. When you want to engage a conflict, bring up something that's making you frustrated, even if someone comes at you with an accusation, like you're being, you know, da, da, da, da, da, start or respond with a gentle word. And then you're going to move into listening to their experience. That's step two. You're going to listen. And then my favorite line for this is, what was it like for you when blank?

So when I left the dishes, when I didn't close the garage door, whatever, it's like, what was it like for you when blank? And you want to get to know not just the story, not just like the big, you know, like, well, didn't this happened and this happened. You want to get to know the feelings underneath, the lived experience of that moment. So step three, you're going to take responsibility for the facts. Now, this is different than taking responsibility for someone's story. Like, let's say that you're in an argument and like, I don't know, I got these big, heavy, clunky boots and I got frustrated talking to my wife the other day and I kind of sat them on the ground and it kind of made like this big boom. And she was like,

don't throw things. And I'm like, hold on enough throwing things. Like, you know, so you don't have to take responsibility like, oh, yep, you're right. I threw things. What you could take responsibility for is, oh, I should have set, should have set those down more carefully. Right. And I would find that taking responsibility for what you should have done is really a lot easier than trying to figure out what the agreed upon story is when someone's throwing an accusation at you. It's like, oh, you, you never listen to me. Okay, so how does taking responsibility look there? You say, hey, you know what? I should have made sure to go close the garage door. I should have made sure to text you back. And so if you're ever in doubt of like, how do I take responsibility?

Pay attention to what you should have done, maybe that you didn't do. That's going to be an easier kind of shortcut to getting there. And then the fourth step is find the longing. Like, what's underneath it? Like, it's more than just, ah, you should have closed the garage door. It's more than you should have texted me back or, ah, you were made a mean comment to my sister. No, I didn't. I wasn't mean to your sister.

What are you talking about? Back up. What was the longing? The longing is that you would have a positive relationship with her sister. or the longing is that you would, you know, hear them. When they have a request, when they're counting on you, they can feel like, oh, they're dependable. They listen to me.

I don't have to worry about X, Y, Z, because I know they got it. And then you affirm that longing. So four steps. I'll just say them again. One, a gentle word. Step two, listen to their experience. Step three, take responsibility for the facts, not the story. And the shortcut there is what should I have done?

And step four is find belonging. I hope maybe that could. I was bouncing things. Thank you. Thank you. It's incredible. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.

Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like Habinier Yes. Save the Everyday with Amazon. That's, well, this is the tools that we need. These are the things that we need people to, okay, thank you. Because I actually have a question for both of you. How do we, because it's like, okay, I think what we're learning now in our culture is very, don't communicate. No, no, just walk away. No, that person's not satisfying your needs. Just go, especially in the early stages of dating. And I used to do that because then I'd be like, well, fuck this guy. He didn't text me every day. I'm done.

Fuck, fine, I'm done. You're not meeting my needs. until I had to stop, like you said, what's under this? Okay, it's not the text. It has nothing to do with the fact that this guy didn't text me. What is it? I don't want to feel abandoned.

I don't want to feel like you forgot about me. So you texting me gives me the perception that you're thinking of me. Cool. Understand that. That's a me thing. Okay, I have to kind of work on that. But how do we, how are we able to differentiate,

especially in your experience working with couples when you're like, okay, what's the line between, yeah, we can work on this. Let's talk. Let's communicate. And this is not going to work. You guys are like wildly unhealthy. How can people in dating be able to understand between the two?

Because it could get so easy to just walk away. But I want people to learn how to converse and have conversations and try that, even if it doesn't work out. Such a good question. My answer is you need to find the common ground. And whether we can move forward together is really contingent on that common ground. Here's what I mean. So you might be arguing over finances and you think like, oh, my gosh, like, are we really even going to, like, you know, make this work at all?

like they spend a lot of money, like they want me to work, they want to stay home, they don't want to work a job, like da-da-da-da-da-da. You need to zoom out from just the individual argument and look at like, what's the larger value? What's the vision for our lives? What's like, what's kind of the trajectory that they want to set out on? And is that in common? Because it could be that you and I are just fighting over the best strategy to go to the same place. And in that case, we're set. We'll figure it out. It could take us a few months to chip through what the best strategy is. You know, that has some hope and promise. Or we might be going to two totally different places.

I want to be exclusive. They don't. Those are two different places. Well, maybe we could make it work. Maybe in time they would want to be exclusive. Like, hold on. You don't have common ground on like what your trajectory is going. That's more concerning.

Well, we really get along well. We laugh. We travel well together. Okay, but where's your trajectory? I want kids. They don't. You know, like I want to settle down near my parents. They want to be digital nomads.

Like, looking at these longer-term trajectories is going to be so much more clarifying than trying to figure out if the chemistry feels right. Because that's so up and down and can change depending on conflict. Yeah, Masha, anything you want to add? Because that was beautiful. And I think because there's so many people, there's so much conflicting advice out there. There's so many, like, you know, Matthias, I loved that video. I know the person personally that you stitched about the cool girl.

And I was literally howling while you were doing it. I sent to Tamasha and I was like, fuck, yes, because it's like, it's one of those moments we're like, thank you for finally saying that this is not how you're actually going to have, but what it is that you want. This is what the movies and when TikTok are telling us. But I'd love to see if you had anything to add to this for anybody that, you know, how do I know whether to stay or whether to go? Yeah.

I love what you just said, you know, that was kind of like a beautiful aha moment for me about like where you're going versus strategy. because now looking back of like so much of what we used to fight about was strategy. And I used to take that to mean of like, no, I'm going to extrapolate that to mean something bigger about this person. Meanwhile, we are trying to go to the same place. And I'd be like, no, this means it's all wrong. And in my head, I would start doing this like mental gymnastics to try and figure it out based

on differences in strategy because I couldn't sit in the discomfort of having different opinions, to be honest. Like you had said something earlier as well, which was something along the lines of like, It's not about being right. I mean, that's so simple, right? Like, I get it. I know that's like so 101. But I think not having to be right and being like, no, we're actually like bringing different

perspectives to the table and we have to sit in the discomfort of our differences, right? Being able to hold contradicting opinions, I think is so incredibly important. And so, you know. Good stuff, too. I'm sorry to cut you off. But it's a good point. I just want to underline it because it's like, that's why you want to be in relationship. If you were happy with all your own opinions, you'd be.

find by yourself. Right. The whole of relationship is to hang out with someone who's different than you. That's what's intoxicating in a good way about them. Yeah. So just so true. But yeah, you know, like I'll be, I want to be like totally honest. It was such a revelation for me. When I really got this like years into our relationship, like I said, we're together for 15 years, but I got this years into our relationship. But I'm realizing I'm trying to make him meet. And I likes him in the first place because he wasn't me because he had a different view. on the world and that was exciting and inspiring. And now every view that is not mine, I'm annoyed by and I'm trying to make it mine. And then I'm wondering what's going on here. Why is there no intimacy?

Why don't I feel more connected? Why don't you feel closer? I'm like, oh, I'm trying to get rid of it. I'm literally trying to get rid of it. You know, and I, you know, to go back to your question about, you know, early on, I think there is something to be said for like, yes, we need to make sure we're going to the same place and that's not an issue of strategy. I think we also need to be aware of, okay, what is it we truly need? And are we communicating that? Because I think oftentimes we're not. I think I used to communicate a lot like, why didn't you do this or why didn't you say that or you should have done that instead of communicating, hey, this is the need I had. This is how that made me feel. This is what I was experiencing and this is what I'm craving and how do we figure out a way to

get those needs met with you being a different person and maybe seeing it slightly differently. You know, and I think that is such an important piece of that work early on as well. Yeah. And then I do, of course, think there is a point of, are we both willing to work on what comes up in the process? Meant, I'll get dysregulated. I'll be lying to you if I said, I'm going to be perfect. I think the chances of your partner being perfect and not getting triggered every once in a while

or doing something you like are very, very slim. Yeah. And so are we both willing to sit in that? discomfort own our part and continue to work towards that common goal that that we found totally i remember this reminds me yeah sorry sorry it's okay i just say we're talking to each other i'll go i'll go um i'm glad you brought that up i actually was going to ask you sabrida because something came to mind you know when masha was explaining that like i talked to so many people who are like hey i'm trying it's usually in this context, like, you know, a girl trying to get a guy to open up. It's like,

he won't be vulnerable. He won't talk about things. I want to have these deep intimate conflicts. Do you know about things? I just have conflict. He shuts down or retreats that doesn't want to have this mutual engagement. I was going to ask Sabrina, like, what's your advice for someone in that spot who's like, this guy isn't opening up? What do I do? I was, which thank you for asking because that literally was going to be the story. Because so my partner is super avoided by nature. Like, avoidant anxious. We're both incredibly secure in our partnership. but just what's that underbelly of like what the past was and i'll never forget on our first date i asked

my partner all the questions you know had your last relationship and what did it teach you about yourself like what is it that you wanted of a relationship and i'll never forget what he told me he said i want to co-create with someone i don't want to fit into your life and i don't want you to fit into mine i want to so in my head i went okay beautiful perfect that's what i want to and so my thing was i'm not just going to take you for face value i need to see the actions also align with this and he would show up And he would, you know, he'd answer questions if I asked. I remember it was probably about seven or eight weeks in. He asked me be his girlfriend. And one day I looked at him and I, like, I had to say it. And I said, you want me to be your girlfriend? But can I share something with you?

And he was like, yeah, what's up? I said, you feel connected to me? And he's like, I've never felt more connected to someone. I said, yeah, you want to know why? Because I fucking share everything. I was like, all I do is open up to you. All I do is tell you about myself. And I said, do you remember what you said to me on our first date? You want to co-create with somebody? And I said, unfortunately, because you're not really letting me in, I don't feel connected to you. So if that's our goal that we want to co-create and be in a relationship together, what I need from you is for you to at least open up to me. If it's going to take you time, I'm here. You need that safe space. I'm going to create it for you. But if you want me to be your girlfriend, which is my goal as well, these are what I need from you.

And instantly, he was like, cool, what does that mean to you? And I said, we've never spent more than 24 hours together. I'd like to spend two days with you to see if we can do that. That's what I would need from you right now. And he said, absolutely. And even yesterday, when I looked at him and I said, what was our pact with each other? We're co-creating a life together, right? So that means that you and I need to be a team. And here's what I need from you. And that was how, because we knew, like you said, the goal was the same.

We want the same goal. Maybe the plan just has to change a bit. But we're on our way to the same track. And if somebody is still saying, well, I can't let you in, then if he had said that to me, I would have said, okay, well, then this isn't going to work for me. Because I know that I want to co-create with somebody that's going to be open and vulnerable with me, not saying it has to be the second, but if you can't even at least make a step, well, then I just don't think this is the right partnership because I wasn't afraid to walk

away from something that wasn't able to be ultimately what I knew was going to work for me because I didn't attach to the outcome of that. I attached to me saying my needs matter. I'm going to ask for it. And if this person can't do it, that's okay. Not everybody will be able to, but he was and he stepped up. And to this day, he's, I mean, sometimes he'll just talk and I look and I'm like, this wasn't that person I met nine months ago. But I also played a part in creating a safe space of not judging, not ridiculing, not putting him down. When he'd express himself, I'd say, that might hurt me. But thank you so much for telling me that because I really did need to know.

Yeah. So good. And I love even that last thing you said, creating a space that wasn't judgmental, creating a space that wasn't breaking him down. I think that there's a common pitfall that some folks slip into where they actually attracted to the other person. because they're more stable emotionally or because like they don't have that high, high, high, low, low kind of vulnerability. And they're like, someone who feels like safe, comforting, warm and solid. And then they get a relationship and they're like, where's the emotion?

Where's the spark? Where's the vulnerability? And what sometimes we find out is that people just haven't developed the same skill set around vulnerability because they've been in an avoidant style for so long. And then you have that kind of confront. conversation. I want you to open up. I want you to share. And then, you know, let's say in this example, the guy looks back and is like, well, I don't really know my own emotions. I don't know what I'm feeling here. Like, I don't have a lot of thoughts about it. I'm just like, whatever. And then,

you know, in, you know, this example, the girl could look back and be like, well, what, he doesn't have any. Like, he's just not being real or he's lying. And I would say that, if you resonate with that circumstance, take baby steps. Because oftentimes those first initial steps in a vulnerability feel like, well, I don't know, that made me feel bad. And then you're like, what do you mean bad? But for him, that's a huge step. Right. And like that just even waiting into the vulnerable territory of that was negative is something really important. And if you, if he sees on your face that you're disappointed and that's not enough and that's not good enough for you, he's going to shut down more. But if you can be like, oh, I never want you to feel bad. Or

Or like, yeah, that was hard. That was bad. In just a genuine way, not in that condescending way, in a genuine real presence, that's going to open up the door for the intimacy you really crave if you're willing to be patient for it. You said that so beautifully. And I feel like you explained something that I've definitely experienced. You just said it so well. But yeah, how do you just explain that?

Like two things come to mind for me. I'm trying to decide which one to go with first. But the first being maybe, you know, Sabrina had said creating the safe space. And I think that's something I think people don't really look at. Like they don't hold that mirror up and be like, am I creating a safe space? Because I think a lot of times when partners are trying to get their partner to share more to be more vulnerable, that's often done in a critical way. And I did that.

Like I know I used to do that. It was done in a critical, maybe kind of cold way, not in like an emotional and vulnerable way. Right. And I think like there was a lot that I had to do to take ownership for what did I do to create that space where he didn't feel safe and he didn't get to develop those skills, specifically since we've been together so long, like he would have developed those skills with me. Had I maybe not approached it in that very critical way or made, I guess, more of an effort to create a safe space. Maybe I just didn't know what that was at the time, right? But like,

I think creating that safe space and asking what did I do to contribute to what it is now, like, am I creating a safe space is so incredibly important? And then the second phase of that for us was, and I think you just put it into words, that once you start doing that, it doesn't feel good for them. And you might be a little disappointed because to me being vulnerable feels really great. And I'm so proud of myself and I'm reading about it. I'm learning about it. And for him, he's like, oh, that was rough. I hated that.

Like, I felt really off for a few days. And I think for me not to be disappointed, took a lot of effort. And I didn't realize how important that was to, like, give him the space for that not to be like roses and butterflies the way I think we're taught. Vulnerability is the answer. But that doesn't mean it feels good in the moment. And for a while to learn that skill is really hard, like learning any skill. Yeah. I think that both like attachment styles, you know, for those who are familiar with that language, there's there's kind of the folks who are maybe higher up on the roller coaster, they have high, highs, low lows. For folks with an anxious attachment style, they're like superpower is this hypervigilant empathy that isn't the same thing as compassion. It's not the same thing as like deep, you know, empath awareness. But it's this overdeveloped awareness of what other people are feeling and what they're feeling because that's what they had to develop to survive. So sometimes you have almost these advanced like PhD skills and like emotional attunement

because you were you had to to get like connection and your needs met, you know. And so when you mature that, then it turns into this compassionate warm space where you can be like a really warm empath in a way that fills you up doesn't leave you feeling drained. Like you don't feel like a burden. You feel like you can really like be with people. On the other side, if you are this avoidance attached person, your like kind of dysfunctional superpower is resilience. And you can like not be.

phased and kind of shut down the emotion and stick with something that most people would probably cave under and most people would kind of like crumble underneath, but you can just like, you know, puff out your chest and keep going. And again, that's not like to say it's a good superpower. It needs to be matured and healed and grown. And then it turns into this resilient strength that can be just as vulnerable as they are strong. And that strength can be set to protect people and to set boundaries, not just to isolate and to withdraw and have self-preservation. But we often don't see the superpower and even the strength in the other person's temperament. We're like, oh, they're not vulnerable. They're not in touch their emotions. And we forget what attracted us in the first place

to them was their consistency. And maybe I actually have something to learn from their overdevelopment and awareness of what it means to kind of like pull it together and bear through. There's a little bit of grit there that has its own set of dysfunctions, but also if matured, it has its own set of strengths and incredible, like, you know, shiny wonderfulness. When you have both of that in view, it really takes some of that superiority and that judgment out of your voice. That is what's really creating that unsafe space for them to open up. I'm so glad you said that because I think the empathy thing has been for a long time we've talked about this because like, we have, I know a lot of people that it's like, well, I'm just an empath. And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

you're just super hypervigilant. You're feeling everything. And like I had a client, I love her, but it was, she was dating a guy and he was great. Like every time anything happened, he would listen to her, he would talk to her. And it was never enough. It was never enough. She was so hypervigilant of like, well, he said he was going to call me a 10.01. And he didn't call me until the next morning. And it's like, then I'd have to come to her and say, well, you're going to give him space to be a human. Maybe perhaps, and he would tell her, hey, sorry, foul, passed out last night. Everything became an issue. Well, I don't appreciate it. I said a boundary that if you say you're going to call me, you need to call me. So the guy kept saying, okay, I understand, I'll do my best. And he was a human. He would slip and fall. It got to the point where it was so many little nitpick, nitpick, nitpick, that even I had to stop and say, well, first of all, do you even like this person? Because it sounds like every single thing he does you hate. Second of all, are you going to take accountability because you're the boy who cried wolf? Because what ended up happening was a serious thing came up. And what happened when she expressed herself? He said, nothing I ever do is good enough for you. I just feel like I constantly get berated by you. So at this point, I have to just say, I

don't know if I can do this anymore. My heart broke because I knew that she was coming from a place of pain, but because it was so much of that hypervigilance and like, no, all of my needs have to be met and you're not doing all this without understanding. Well, wait a minute, how does it come off to them that I'm always finding a problem in everything that they do every step along the way? Yeah, so well set. So powerful. Guys, this was probably one of my favorite episodes. I am so, so grateful to have had both of you on. I don't know if there's anything last you guys wanted to bestow upon the wisdom of the audience before we hop off. But I'd love to just give you guys a second if there's anything you want to leave people with about conflict resolution and dating that you feel would be a good, like, helpful piece of information for people.

Well, I would just underline, I think, something we were talking about earlier, that the ultimate goal in these conflicts is not just to fix the problem. it's to build trust. And you build trust by how you navigate the conflict, not just the end point of the conflict or where you get to. So that's what I'd underline. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the part I'd underline is I really loved how you said the superpower, because I think

you're so right. There's something really beautiful about seeing our differences and maybe even our nervous system responses or trauma responses as superpowers and that we have different superpowers that we're bringing to the table and we could learn from one another and we could heal together. I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it. And I think that's what I love so much about your work. There's this level of compassion for ourselves and for the other person. And I think with that level of compassion, the opportunity for healing is really born. And the opportunity for deep connection and intimacy is born. And it really becomes possible. Totally. I think, yeah, if I could leave everybody off with something, I want to just normalize that.

It's okay to have conflict. It's okay to be able to tell your partner, you know, that really hurt me. it's okay and I understand there are some people that listen even when I'll speak and they'll be like wow don't stop yelling at me and I'm like hey I get it if when you were a kid someone always raised their voice you saw it as you getting in trouble but I can't own that for you that's something that you know I will lower my voice if that makes you feel more comfortable but I can't own your reaction to how I speak to you but I want people to learn that it's okay if you talk to your partner and that feels scary it's okay to say hey I'm just feeling a little overwhelmed right now I'm not saying that you're not right but this is a just a lot for me and I just need you to know I'm trying my best. It's okay to be vulnerable and share that something's hard for you. It's okay to share with your partner that you're struggling. It's the only way your partner can understand you because nobody can read the minds of the other person and I'll leave it off at this. Stop trying to play it cool because there's just the coolest thing you could do is just to be yourself and authentic and share that authenticity with your partner. Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Matthias, where can people

find you if they want to work with you? I'll put everything in the show notes. but just in general, where can people find you? Yeah, Matthias J. Barker. So, yeah, that's on Instagram, TikTok, anywhere else. I'm just building tools around helping people heal relationships and their trauma. So I'm just grateful, though, that you brought me on. What a great conversation. Gosh, this was just awesome.

Great chemistry, great questions, just really feel connected with both you. Thank you. Thank you. And Masha, where can people find you? Masha K on Instagram, and that's my website. And, yeah, guys, thank you so much for being here. It's been true. I mean, not from the bottom of my heart.

It's such an honor to speak with both of you. You guys are both incredible. And I'm just, this conversation was so beautiful. Thank you. Of course. Thank you guys. And like I said, everything will be in the show notes if anybody wants to find you guys. And until the next time.