The Sabrina Zohar Show - 48: Healing from a narcissistic marriage, inner work post divorce and how to navigate co parenting with a narcissist with Helen Zohar!

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by her mom Helen to go over healing from a narcissistic marriage, inner work post divorce and how to navigate co parenting with a narcissist. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Ah, guys, another week. Here we are. And this is a very special week because a lot of you guys know my journey personally. And this week we have my mom on. And, you know, like, this is kind of the beauty of the healing journey.

It's like my mom and I had a really tough relationship for a lot of years because of so many traumas and so many things that she went through that I went through with my dad. And we were able to work through it and have this beautiful relationship now. and I'm just so excited to share her story of being married to a narcissist, having three kids, moving through that. And just even the realities of dating that like dating has always been fucking hard. We just have new and different realities that we need to deal with. So just so excited. And again, guys, thank you for everything. Please don't forget to rate the show. Please, please, please. I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. You click the three dots at the top of Spotify or scroll to the end at Amazon or Google or Apple, whatever. And you can leave a rate of the show overall or just a star rating. and don't forget to auto download. It helps me more than anything, just like sharing it and

following along on the socials. So, you know, I'm super excited, guys. The podcast I know has a few more ads. Thank you guys for supporting the sponsors, including software, my clothing company. You get 20% off with the code, do the work at wear software.com. And it was, you know, company I created after my mom almost passed away. And I wanted to do something that was different and local and sustainable. So it's something that's near and dear to my heart. But just in general, the ads are how I can keep the podcast free for you. The ads are our way of being, able to at least continue on. And now we're going to have a subscription service that will be in addition to the podcast where you can get bonus content with me and Tech Guy doing Q&A's live

profile audits. You guys can call in and talk to us and ask questions. It's going to be fucking amazing. And it will be ad free as well. So hang tight in the new year. There's so many amazing things coming and courses. And I'm just over the moon. And I'm so fucking grateful for all of you. So thank you to the moon and back for all of the support. Thank you for rating. Thank you for being here. Thank you for just showing up as you. And thank you for allowing me to show up as myself. So without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it. Hi, friends. Wow, I can't believe another week has gone by. It feels like every time a new episode launches, we're out for another one. But this week is an incredibly special episode to me. I got my mom here. And my mom is my rock.

She's been through so much. I've learned so much from her. She's learned from me. It's such an incredible thing that we have going on. And I'm just so excited to welcome you guys to Heli, who has such an incredible life and history and experiences that I'm just so excited for her to share with us. So, hi, Mom. Welcome. Hi, Sabby. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you very much. Of course, ma. So, Mom, can you just start off with a little bit about yourself? Like, what's your name? What is your history? What's your background? And just so the folks at home can know a little bit more about you. Yes, of course. My name is Helen Zohar.

I currently reside in Ocala, Florida. I came to this country at a very early age, between 8 to 10 years old, if I could remember. Went to McGill University, majored in linguistics, and traveled extensively in my life before I finally decided to get married. What a fateful day that was. No, I'm kidding. But I think, you know, I think for a lot of people, like, you know, your social. story resonates with so many people. Marrying a narcissist, marrying somebody who is just toxic. Let's just call it what it is and who could literally hit your self-esteem and then now you're dealing with three children who all have trauma and your own trauma and things that you went through.

So I think, you know, I kind of just wanted to dive in and like some people wrote in some really incredible questions on Instagram. But I think kind of the first thing I wanted to ask was, you know, when you first met dad, like when you first experienced this grandiosity, and things like that. Did you ever, first off, let me even backtrack. When you were, what, 26 when you met dad, 25, did you have any idea what a narcissist even was? Did you even know, was it culturally even acceptable to speak in terms like that? Or was this all something that you discovered well into your marriage with him? Oh yeah, no, absolutely. The word narcissism was never utilized. I mean, it was just another word in the dictionary. No, there was no understanding at all

of about that. And regarding meeting him, it was quite uneventful, actually, when we met. I didn't think anything of him. I actually thought he was pretty boring and dull. And that was very uneventful. So it was quite surprising to me as he pursued me, how it turned around. And now I realize that that's one of the very, very important factors in being a narcissist, how they get you and how they approach you. And it comes on very, very strong to get that attention and to get you into it. But at the time, no, I can't say that it was a romance that was well, you know, wasn't a storybook. Not at all. Now, let me ask you, because I know it's true. It's like when we talk about, you know, let me also preface. Like, I am not going to, when I talk about narcissism, I'm not a, I'm not going to be a

clinician about it because it's not my place to diagnose people. But my father, as we know, has been diagnosed by almost every therapist we've ever spoken to and even one that he's, he had gone to many years ago. So it's not like this is a term that we're throwing around. But typically speaking with narcissist, in the early beginning stages, like the courtship stage, it's love bombing. It's this so charming and they come on. Everything is so doting to you. And then all of a sudden it starts to shift. Did you experience that onset of almost where you have to, like I know you said it was uneventful, but once you started to open up and let him in and say, okay, I'll date this person. Did you find that he was almost too perfect, too good to be true? Everything was

great. He was showering you with affection and love. Like, what was that courtship like that made you say, okay, I'll marry this man, truly? Well, it's a very good question. And no, I did not see it as it's too much or what have you. And the contrary, I saw it as I won the lottery. Here's a man who is giving me everything that feels good, that gives me the attention. No, it never occurred to me to question it. We didn't question those kind of things in those days. The better it was, the better it was. No, it wasn't, oh, well, why is he doing that and why is he coming on so this way? Not at all. I received it and I enjoyed receiving it. And it continued on. And at that particular point, it wasn't even when it started to fizzle out that I said, well, what's going on? No, on the contrary, I thought, what is it that I'm doing? What is it that I'm doing that is not allowing this to continue? And that's where you start. And this is where I say is the red flag for for most young people whether it's a guy or girl when you start to start to question yourself that's when you need to know I've got to get out of this yeah because I mean I think

knowing knowing the person you were married to gaslighting like and so it's like what is gaslighting gaslighting is making you question your own reality so like and I know like even jammy and I'm my sister we talk about this all the time and we'll do like where did we learn this from and even I think Jane and I were talking about how, you know, fights are very uncomfortable. Like she, when she was first married Ashton, she was like, I never wanted to open my mouth. And she was like, I learned that from mom. Because any time, I'll never forget, you even remotely opened your mouth. It was either storming off or screaming.

Like, when I think about dad as my childhood, I think about screaming, yelling, leaving, hitting the belt, always seeing the belt, and just seeing you having to walk on eggshells. simply to say, what do you want for dinner tonight? Now, obviously, I would struggle to believe that that's how he was from the moment you met him. So that makes sense. It's an alignment. But I think something that's really important that you hit on was it felt good in the moment because low self-esteem, you wanted to hear all of those things. You had so much shit in your childhood.

It doesn't surprise me. But then when he switched, notice how what did she say that was so fucking important to hit on? What did I do? because when that low self-esteem is so bottom of the barrel, this is where narcissism, that's how they get you. That's how they get you. Now, let me ask you, Mom, when you think back on those times,

if you had that version of you here, like if you saw that 27-year-old Heli pregnant with Joe and dad doing all the stuff that he was doing and being a fucking tyrant, what do you think she would need to hear from you in that moment that you're feeling now, that now that you've experienced all of these things, what do you think she needed to hear from you?

That's a very good question. And I think that going back in thinking that way, I would have to say that love is not enough. You know, my generation was, you know, and the old song of the Beatles, love is, all you need is love. Well, no, it's not the case. You need much more than love to make things work. And I was always told,

if you love somebody enough, you will get them to change. You will get them to see what the kind of person you are. And no love in this world will ever do that. I have to be honest with you, I was totally lost. I didn't understand what was going on. You asked me the question is, what would I would say? And I don't know. I don't know.

It's very traumatizing even up till now for me to be able to give you an answer. And I think it stems from shame. It stems from disappointment in myself, and it stems from, why is it that I didn't see it? Why is it that I have to be 68 years old and see my daughter having gone through the same thing for me to get it? And that is very difficult for me to even think that I have the right to go back. Amazon Presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Rojas. Or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.

Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. So that's actually a really great point that you made. Did when I, so for anyone who knows, I was married to my father pretty much. I was textbook. And I'll never forget when there was one instance that comes to mind after we, very shortly after we had kind of become a, like, really tied the knot. And I know you had your concerns about him from the beginning and you had always been questioning what was going on and talk about gaslighting. My ex had written me an email. Couldn't even talk to me in person, God forbid, saying that one of us loves you more than the other, meaning that he loved me more than I loved myself. And so of course, what is that complete gaslighting manipulation to make me think he can.

cares more about me than I even do. Oh, my God, everything he does then. And I'll never forget calling you and saying, oh, my God, he wrote me this email. It's so beautiful. And I'll never forget the moment you stopped. And I heard silence and you said, no, no, no, no, no. I want to know. Was my experience married to, you know who, I'm not going to say names here. Did that shed light onto you? Was that more of a moment where you were like, oh, my God, she's doing what I did? Like, was that at all any kind of realization for you, what you experienced? watching me go through it? Yes, and there's another factor of it.

Not only that, but it was also shame on me that I allowed it to happen to me and that I allowed it to happen to you again, because I should have really not have accepted you marrying this person. I get that, Hellie, but at the end of the day, I can't have you shame or blame yourself into things that happen because at the end of the day, I'm also a grown-ass woman. I wasn't, you heard, let's be honest, Do you think I was going to listen to you?

Really? You're knowing me who I am. You think I would have listened to you, even if you told me a million times not to do it. And you did. You did warn me a lot of times about this. How could that have been your responsibility, Ma? Well, that's the effect of having lived a life with a narcissist

that you feel that everything is your fault and you've got to take accountability for it. I mean, the remnants are still there. I mean, even as we're talking about it now, it's very painful. And I think that I've learned one thing from that that when you feel that pain and you feel that discomfort and you're feeling so, you know, not grounded, that that's a sign that you need to listen to. And I know it's an uncomfortable sign because we want what we want in life.

And we always try to feel that if we fight hard enough, we're going to get it. But sometimes that should be enough. That discomfort, that just that that that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, feeling that I'm not feeling who I should be and I'm not in a good place is enough for you to remove yourself. And I think that having seen that with you, yeah, of course it was it was very uncomfortable. It's, uh, you went through hell. Can I ask you a question? When you were going through, because I think there's so many people here, they're so unaware of what's going on. They're so unaware of what's going on. They're so unaware of things. Like when dad was in his worst, those heydays,

what was going through your mind thinking like, okay, I've got three fucking kids. I'm like, I'm dependent on this person because I mean, you guys got married in what, 86? 82. 82, Jesus. So you got, right, yeah, before Joe is bored, you got married in 82. So different than where we are now in 2023 where as a woman with, you know, a single woman with children, there's a lot more resources and opportunities to build, you know what, holy shit, this is not for me. But I feel like back when you got married to dad, it was, no, you stay with it. You stick it through.

make him a happy, happy wife, happy life, you make him happy, you do everything for him. Was there ever a moment? I actually have never asked you this, that you were going to leave. And like what happened in your mental state that you were like, I can't do this? Because you stayed for what? You guys were married for 20? 23 years. Yeah. It's a very good question. Yes, there were many times that I wanted to leave. There were many times. But you also have to remember, and this is one of the good things of today in that sense. Had there been, you know, the whole technology, I probably would have been able to get a higher degree, being at home and having gone through it. There were more limitations. And that's not, I'm not using that as an

excuse, but there were more limitations. You couldn't Google what the hell was going on. And therapy in those days was not as it is today. So I'm not going to use that as an excuse, but those are factors. So every time you kind of go around that. And also, I mean, you were three is small kids and not so easy. I was going to say with issues. We have jail with ADHD. A lot of, lot of issues. And in those days, also, divorce was not really much of an option because not only did you

have to love and hope that he would change with that, but you had to stick it out. You had to stick it out. You don't give up. You don't give up. You're in a marriage. You made a commitment. You need to see it through. And then there's that question of, do you stay and do the children pay the price for

that or is it better for you to stay because the children need that? So these are all factors. And I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it. And unfortunately, my other two sisters were in the same situation. So you kind of see a pattern here. Right. I had also my other two sisters who were married to two narcissists, full blown. Oh yeah. I mean, I was going to say, even knowing Grandma Lucy, Lucy's response probably would always have been, no, you stay. Because not because she's, there's something wrong. But, oh, no? What would Lucy? What did it? I know Lucy wasn't a fan of Yuri. Not at all. She never wanted me to marry him. She knew he wasn't right for me. And then it goes back to what you said. Would I, you know, I wouldn't have listened to her, so you wouldn't have listened to me. And you brought up a

very good point. But look at the pattern. You see the pattern here? And no, my mother was not. Lucy was not on his team. So she or not. She would have been okay with a divorce at any point? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think I was so. young. I didn't really even like have that connection with her to understand. She says if you need to leave, you need to leave. And what, let me ask you, when those moments would happen, what was going through your head to say, no, I need to stay? Well, I, at that point, I only had Joseph. I didn't have you and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and it was very important for me to have my kids all with the same father, because, um, I had been raised with my sister and my brother who were from

a different father and I love them dearly. But that to me was was very difficult. I wanted them, I wanted that unit with one, one father, one mother, the same ones with all my kids. Traditional. Very traditional. The white picket fence, the home, the one. Because I didn't have it. Right. And that's what I wanted to, that's what I was grasping for. Now let me ask you, now with all of this stuff, because you went into therapy, you've been working with a therapist that has specialized in narcissism, so I know that you're in phenomenal hand. Since all of this happened,

because you, let's see, you guys divorced when I was 14, so it's been, what, 18 years, which is fucking insane to even say as a, like, timeline. 18 years later, what is the biggest thing, I think, that you've, like, that you learned about yourself through this process of finding yourself now

and doing inner child work and things? What's the biggest thing that comes to mind? Well, that character is destiny. Who you are is what you'll always be. And when you meet someone that doesn't align with that, you will never be able to change them. That's who they are. And the very important factor is that you need to be with the person you will be for the rest of your life. And that's yourself.

You wake up to you and you'll die to you. So that relationship has to be the paramount relationship. You've got to love yourself and you've got to understand that it's not about being an egotist or self-absorbed when you love yourself is that you've got to be centered and you've got to know what what you want in life. And then after that, you can receive because in life, people are going to come in and out of your life. We don't know how long they will be. But if you're if you're if you're cord and you're centered within yourself, you will be the best version to everyone that comes into. your life. So if you're asking me that one thing, yeah, that who you are is who you are. Don't try to change for anyone. And don't expect people to change for you. You've got to find that

person that's going to align that with you. Totally. I mean, I think that's like your famous saying of you need to love yourself more than the need to be loved by others. And I've had people attack me on that. No. You know, because like there is, RuPaul says, you know, if you can't love yourself, how the hell is anybody else going to love you? And it's like, I understand the sentiment of that because it's true. It's like if you don't if you don't accept yourself and think I deserve this. I'm worthy of it. Then nobody I could say to you all day. You're not going to receive it. But I think when it comes to that saying, I love what you say. And I had to clarify this to somebody. And I was like, no one's saying that if you don't love yourself first, no one can love you.

What we're saying is if you're constantly seeking external validation and you don't give that to yourself, you're, it's always then here we go, going with a narcissist. Finding yourself in situations where you go, what the fuck is going on? How have I lost myself so much? Because you weren't connected with yourself to begin with, to be able to stop and say, wait a minute. Because I've told, we know and I've talked about this. If I had met my ex now, I wouldn't sit more than a four fucking second conversation before going fuck off, dude, get out of my face. But at the time, the version of who I was was so trauma-driven, was so I need the validation, I need somebody to love me. Oh my God, this guy is so amazing. Oh, my God, he's so much better than me. That was my perception of him.

that I needed that validation because I didn't love myself enough to walk away from something that wasn't in alignment with me. Oh, absolutely. It's the rescue syndrome, you know? Rescue me. To be saved. Yes. And if you don't find that within yourself, you're never going to have that fulfillment.

Forget about the word happiness. It's fulfillment, totally. And, you know, it's like you've said before and you played on it is self-abandonment. That's what that is. is when you don't have that core within yourself and love yourself, then why would you expect anybody else to? You know, we talked about it, Sabrina, when I said, why would you go into a store and say to the merchant, oh, you know, you have this for $5, but I think it's worth $15. I think it's actually worth $20. I'm going to pay $20 for it. Of course, that's ridiculous. If it's, if it's

there for $5, that's what the value is. So the value you put on yourself is what others are going to see. So you've got to shine. You've got to shine. And you've got to find it. Nobody can rescue you for that. And in that same token, no one's going if you, so I love that analogy, because if you're going to accept the breadcrumbs, why is someone going to go, you know what? She deserves a loaf now. Let me give her more. And on that flip side, I always make this analogy when I have my one-on-ones, I'm like, okay, so if I'm holding up this rock right now in my hand, and I tell you, it's worth $20 million, I've got a thousand buyers that are willing to pay this $20 million for this rock. And if you looked at me and said, what are you talking about? It's a rock. It's worth nothing. What am I going to go?

oh my god you're right fuck this thing forget it it's done it's trash no i'm gonna say that's your you don't see it that doesn't mean that the value is diminished because some external person and like the example i always used is right before i met ryan you remember the guy that i was seeing remember when i called you and came home crying saying he found all these reasons he didn't want to be with me i wasn't attractive enough he didn't like my personality and all those things but i never once said he was right all i said was fuck that guy because here's the beauty of it five days later i met a man that that not only saw that, valued it, loved it, and found me more attractive than most of the people

that he's met, probably not all, but here we are, but just saw all of those things within me because I didn't let someone else's opinion of me define who I am. I defined my value and my worth and who the fuck I am, and I only allowed people into my life that also saw it. Yes, and I could tell you also what you did is you became more tolerant of yourself and more intolerant of the bullshit outside of that.

And when you, and that's why you can't go backwards because it's a non-negotiable thing. Once you've reached that, that level, you will never be able to go back. And that's a very important factor. I do want to ask you. A lot of people had questions about, and I know that, you struggled with this, but I am curious, your experiences and then hindsight, co-parenting with a narcissist. As the child of the divorce, I can at least speak on how we received it. it was, how do I say this?

A living fucking nightmare. Because our experiences between, from my perspective, was when the divorce happened, we lost you. I know that you were so in your own world trying to process the ending of the fantasy and fairy tale that never actually even happened. You wanting this amazing marriage and my three kids and all of those things,

it actually crumbled quite to shit. And so I think you were processing not only the ending of the marriage, but also what you wanted it to be, what it never ended up happening. How we received that was a parent that was just not there. We had one guy, my father who was literally never there and was just kind of absent-minded. But on the contrary, he only ever shit talked, dragged you through the mud.

But what you did, you never did that. I have to say, you never spoke ill about him. Of course you had your moments where you would break down or I would see you talk with a friend and say, with a fucking piece of shit, I can't believe he's doing this. But rightfully so. But I was curious to hear your experiences like, how were you able to? I mean, we were older. Joe was in college. Jamie was in college and I was almost in, I was in high school. What was your experience co-parenting with somebody who is

close to impossible? Well, we didn't really have any communication if you remember. You know, if he didn't hear what he wanted to hear, then that conversation was shut down. So I was always doing a balancing app. And it was very difficult in the sense because, you know, it's very easy for a parent to bring in their, their, their, their emotions with a child. And a child should not be put in that position. You know, we're two adults and we need to work it through. So at that particular point, there was no, there was no co-parenting. That's the only way I could say it to you.

I was solo on it. You know what I loved, though, that you did? You, because people ask, like, did you date after? And it's like, I know that we, you know, we as your children, we bought. you a match.com subscription and we really wanted you to get back out there. And what I really appreciated was you never, my dad will literally introduce you to somebody that he's met four minutes ago and bring them to every dinner I can ever remember from 14 until, who am I trying to kid? My dad cheated on, he would bring women when you weren't there. But every situation after, every woman, to this day,

we'll go and I'm like, who is this person? You just met her a day ago and she's at a family fucking dinner. You never did that. And that's what I appreciated. because I get a lot of people that'll write in saying, when do I introduce my kids to the new person I'm dating? I'm like, nine months, minimum. Why are you introducing your kids to some person you just met? Well, it's because, you know, I'm not a performer. I don't need my props.

He's a performer and he needed his props. He needed his entourage. I didn't need that. And I didn't, you know, for me it was, I'm your mother. I'm here. And I don't need any external, you know, a validation for that, you know. I don't think he knew how to be anything, but a performer at that point.

So for me, and for me, even wanting to date afterwards, I wasn't ready to date. I think I actually dated because I needed to feel like I was a human being that I was a woman. I had lost that because he completely depleted me. You know, the betrayal of the betrayal was huge. And of course, it's very difficult when you're betrayed not to see it as being a refrable.

reflection on you, obviously, because, you know, you're standing as a woman, you're standing as an individual, but it never worked because I wasn't ready. And I don't think one of the things I would tell to a lot of women, at least my experience is don't, don't try to find that validation by thinking if you date and you go out with other men that's going to give you that kind of validation. It doesn't. It doesn't. If you're not ready, take the time. Take the time. work through your therapy. That's more important. Get the relationship with yourself back. Don't go looking for another relationship that's external of yourself. And I think that is a very big factor that when a woman goes through something like that, she needs to grieve. She needs to feel it.

And she needs to also know that the most important relationship would have to be with herself first. Now, let me ask you. Another question I had was, you know, dad cheated on you for, I knew that. I knew that. my entire childhood. I remember when you went out of town and I said, oh, second mom is coming and dad did don't ever fucking call her that again. Her name is blank. I don't want your mother to ever hear anything like that. And I remember thinking, yeah, we're going to dad's business partner's house and we're sleeping there. He's sleeping in the room with her and I have to be in the guest room when you were just thinking as a child because what do I know? How the fuck am I supposed to know that this isn't normal? Honestly, really with me, candidly, you had no fucking clue the entire time that he was

cheating on you? Well, first of all, I want to, my heart breaks, and I want to apologize that you had to go through that. No, no, seriously, it breaks my heart. I appreciate that. And I'm going to be as brutally honest. No, I did not know. Never an inclination. Never an inclination.

You just thought he was just an asshole because he's an asshole? No, you have to understand something. From the moment that I met your dad, he was an alcohol. Excuse me. He was a workaholic. Please forgive me. Yeah. Jesus. He was a workaholic and he would work from morning tonight. So he was always out.

So when you said to me, you didn't see it. No, because he was very good at it. If one thing I have to say he was good at is that. I mean, in all due fairness, true. You guys, you were married in New York. He had the clubs. He had the theaters. Yes. So my dad's history, he had porn theaters in New York in the 80s. He had a gay club. It's like, we have a colorful. So I can imagine, you know, know, like that it, that was the childhood. That's what we were raised around was lots of freedom, lots of, you know, who get, you could be anything you want, you can do anything, like, whatever. So I can understand how him going out in the middle of the night, like, I remember, it's so wild. I remember being in school. I was maybe it was in the Boyton House. And somebody said, my dad, like, we were talking about like our parents being home for dinner. And I was like,

oh, my dad leaves in the middle of the night all the time. Just thinking that was no, or like, 10 o'clock a night, my dad would just go out. And people were like, what the fuck do you mean? And I was like, that's not what your parents do? It was. It was. so normalized to me that, you know, I grew up in a household where my father saw, I'm a successful parent because you have food and you have a roof over your head. Yes. I don't need to give you emotional needs. What the fuck are emotions. Stop being a little bitch about it. Come on. Toughen up. Even to this day, my love, get over it. Move on. There's no compassion. There's no feelings. There's no understanding. But then I have you who is so in your feelings. So express

yourself. Like I say this all the time. If we didn't have you and we had, let's say, two dad, two of dad, oh, we'd be fucked up. Shits Creek without a paddle. but because we had such a heart from you. My thing is, how on God's green earth? I mean, I understand you're a people pleaser. You were used to just always making other people comfortable. How was that, like, were you that disconnected from how you were feeling that you couldn't even, like, express yourself to this person ever?

No, fear. Fear. You made a mention before in saying, I don't want to rock the boat because I, you know, I'm afraid to lose him and what. And that really was fear of repercussions. and they were big. Yeah. Because you never knew how he respond.

But also, I have to emphasize something. He had such a way, whenever you try to confront him or say something to him, he had such a way of turning it around that you finished the conversation and said, oh, my God, yes, it's me. What did I do? What did I say? I know it sounds crazy, but that's what I felt. No, Ma, that's called gaslighting.

Yes. That's the manipulation tactic of making you question, your own reality because you start to think, there's something wrong with me. Because they're so good at that. And somebody actually asked, which I thought was a really great question. Yeah.

Were the little things that you pushed under the rug in the beginning, ultimately the problems? Like when you really think back on some of those things in the beginning, do you ever really think that you're like, fuck, man, I really, I can't believe I just didn't see that. Or was it just, you just had no idea.

Well, if I have to be perfectly honest, there were no little things. There were big things. Yeah. They were huge things. Like what? The, um, the language.

He would belittle me in front of people and insult me. The indifference. To punish me by indifference. If I had the nerve to open up and say something and try to, you know, fight for myself, he would punish me by indifference. And it was deep. And it's to the point that everybody saw it but me. Yeah.

So, you know, and I fought. You know, when you start to be resistant to what people are seeing, you know you're in trouble. But I didn't see it as such because I wanted it to work. When you want something to work, it will really blind you to the truth to the point of really, you know, it ends badly. And it did in this case because I refused to see it. I mean, I think that's a great point of like when you want something so fucking bad, which is why I, like, my whole thing now with everything is like, can people please go slow? Can we for a second strip it away?

Because I hear this every day. Oh, my God, they were amazing for the first three months. They were incredible. They were da-da-da-da. And then all of a sudden they change. And that's the, that's the tactic. Yeah. And what is it that I said to you?

Be careful, Sabrina, because if you started 100, there's nowhere else to go, but down. Helly's favorite famous saying. Yes. To this day, people ask me how you supported me through my dating. Yes. Your little fucking sayings. Because it's true. When I would call my mom and be like, oh,

And we're texting every day and we're doing this. She would say, it's too sweet. Give me a toothache. You're starting at 100. Where else you're going to go? You got to start from the basics because you're getting to know each other. And it's got to be uncomfortable. It's got to be raw.

And then it just builds. And if it's not, it fizzles. It's not sustainable. It's not you can't be on a high plateau constantly. Because what goes up has to come down. Of course. And that's why it's like I love the kind of the three sayings. You got to love yourself more than need to be.

you love by others. They started at 100, where are you going to go? And then my other favorite one that you've really drilled into my head. Sabrina, you were good before this person. You'll be good after. Actually, even better. And I'll tell you why. Because we learn, we learn so much about ourselves and what we're able to, you know, to conquer. And the challenges make us stronger. So I'm going to re-change that and say, we'll make you better because you're learning. And learning is a good thing. You learned through so many different things. I don't know why. people believe that when they're in pain or whatever, that's not a good thing in the sense that because it makes you feel better. It makes you feel more about what you need to know for yourself.

So definitely I think you could turn out better. A hundred percent. I mean, and it's so funny because I'll say that saying and I'll get people's reaction going, well, I wasn't good before them. And I'm like, well, that's the issue. You're going into it thinking this person's going to heal you, save you, fix you all the fucking words. But what does that mean? I wasn't good before them. I mean, really, I, what does that mean? I mean, I'll give you an example. Me. Let's think of me.

The me, if we think back on, I would say probably not last year. I think last year was really when I started to get it, when I started to date different. You could start to see that I was like really learning. Let's go back to New York Sab. When I used to, I'll never forget when that fucking one dickhead, when he had, remember, I didn't do what he wanted, raging narcissist. And I called you crying hysterically saying, I fucked up what's wrong with me. And all he kept saying was, Sab, what do you do?

Sabrina, come back onto Earth. What are you talking about? All you said was one thing to him and he freaked out. That's what I mean by I wasn't good before this person. I so badly wanted this person to make me into the person I am now without realizing only I could do that. Only I could do that. Only I could go back to those parts and go, you know what, Sab, you so badly want dad to

change, which is why you keep dating people like him because you're hoping that because you didn't do it as a kid, that now you're going to be able to do it, that you can love somebody so much that you can fix them, that you can love somebody so much. that you'll make them into something. And you know what I learned? I learned this. Now, with my partner, the one that I love more than probably any person

I've ever loved on the planet as far as a partner that I've ever had, was I've become the best version of myself being with him and I feel like he is hopefully also doing the same, not because anybody changed the other person, but because we gave each other the space to actually be who we really are and start to explore safely triggers

and safely explore, things about ourselves because I always thought in my head, I'm going to be that woman that changes a man. I'm going to be the girl that takes the playboy and makes him into the most amazing man. And what fucking rom-com movie did I learn that from? Well, you learned it from me with your dad. I learned it from me. Because you always said to me, mom, you're not screaming loud enough. You have to, you know, dad only listens when you scream loud enough and you show him and you show your strength. But you really weren't showing your strength. You were showing your frustration. in screaming at that.

I wasn't being heard. No. And that's where I said about character being destiny. In other words, you know, you've got to start, you've got to, people always say, well, we're on the same page. You got to be even on the same line in the chapter because you both, you, you both accepted each other for who you are. And then you worked upon that.

You weren't trying, like you said, changed one another. You appreciated each other. So it's very important. That's why I say that who you are is who you are and who they are. who they are. And don't waste your time trying to change yourself or them because you just collide and you're wasting your time. I think like that's such a common misconception that it's like, I think people see relationships is just like, okay, so whatever, we like hang out and we go and do the same stuff. Like, cool, yay. And it's like, I think tech guy said it. We don't say his name. Tech guy said it

best when my friend asked him. Oh, by the way, I do like tech guy very much. I mean, he divest. But I think tech guy said it best when a friend of us asked, what is it, what is it relationship? And he laughed. He said, it's one giant conversation. And I couldn't have said it any better because I think there's this misconception of like, you know, especially when you're dating a narcissist or somebody that is, like,

super avoidant or somebody who's just not in a healthy frame of mind, that it's just constantly, you're always feeling in the triggered land. You're always living in the space of, I can't say anything and I don't want to say anything. I don't want to rock the boat. I can't open my mouth. to-da-da-da-da-da, without understanding, that's actually what's crippling you by not being able to have communication.

Like, let me ask you, Mom, did you ever even, do you even know what a boundary was when you were married to dead? Absolutely not. I was going to say, did you even know what the fucking word meant? I knew it in terms of a geographical location. That's about it.

But, you know, it goes back to what you said that I was so afraid to lose somebody and then what have I always told you? You can't lose somebody you've never had. No. You lost yourself more than anything. Absolutely. Thank you. Yes, I did. I lost myself. And that is that is the greatest loss, by the way. That's why I say you, that's where I say you've got to love yourself more than the need to have someone love you, is that you've got to be who you are. And if you're not, you're just, you're just floating. You're floating. And that's why you want to be rescued. You know, your podcast says it very well. You've got to do the work. You can't have somebody rescue and do it for you. They can't just, you're just floating. They can't just. you know, with the magic wand and you're all healed and better. You need to do that yourself.

Let me ask you, as a 68-year-old woman now, I think we got, there are a lot of listeners that are over 40, 50, 60, like, it's not like everybody in the audience is my age because I think I get this all the time. Like, I'll talk to clients. They'll go, I'm so embarrassed. I'm so old to be doing this. And I'll laugh and I'll say, well, my mom's doing the work. Now, as your age doing it, like, how does it feel now that you're finally saying, holy shit? Like, what is, what have, what have you learned in this process about like this exploration and like could you ever imagine not having done this? Oh no. It's it's what I what I think is so sad is everyone is so afraid to go into this exploration and I kind of say what is it that I was so afraid about it? It's so liberating.

It's the greatest gift you've given me that greatest gift. You know it's people think that just because you're 68 years old you can't learn from your children that are in their 30s. They're the greatest, they're the greatest treasures to learn from. I think that it was the most liberating, the most uplifting. I'm actually enjoying life more because you know what? I don't give a shit. Fuck you. I don't give a shit. Because it's true, it's like, you know, it's like Carol always says, are my sister's mother-in-law, other people's opinions of you is none of your business. And it's like, I kind of live like that now. I'm like, listen, you don't like me. That's okay. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me. I know that there are people that,

fucking love me and I know there are people that can't stand when I open my mouth. That's cool. They can go fuck themselves. Those are not my people. I don't need to. It's like when I get people on the on fucking Instagram or TikTok, it'll be like, you speak too fast. You need to slow your voice down. And my response is then go fucking unfollow. I don't need to change who I am so that you're comfortable. What that sounds like is that you need to learn, one, how to fucking communicate with people. And two, that you need to learn that not everything, that entitlement, you don't just get what you want. Just because somebody's not doing something how you want it doesn't deem that's, they're wrong and you were right, it just means that this isn't your fucking person.

And I implement that in dating as well. Just because you don't want to be with me doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me. Of course not. And that goes back again to another wonderful cliche. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. And that's a reality. Not everybody's going to like you.

Not everybody's going to hate you. And it's just finding your people. And if you go through life thinking that every guy you date has left you because there's something wrong with you or every guy or every woman who's dated a guy vice versa. No, it's just this is what it is in life you're going to like. It's the same thing with colors. It's the same thing with forms and shapes. We like certain things. Can I ask you a question before we kind of wrap it up? Yeah. I think a lot of people do the dating was easier back then. And I'm like, because oh, now we have dating apps with all this. And it's like, okay, so you obviously, you've dated now. Like you understand

what it is. It's not like you've seen me. You know about the apps and everything. And I think my My thoughts on that are always like, well, wait a minute. Back in the day, when I see my mom, what choices did you fucking have? Let me make it very clear. Dating has never been easy at any time, in any place, or in any era. Dating is dating. It's difficult. Finding the person that you want in your life is difficult.

And it's just a constant, you know, you got to keep trying. So, no, if you're asking me if dating was easier in my time, no, I don't think so. actually was even more difficult because you were very limited. Right. And I traveled a lot. Yeah. And I was with a lot of people. Never met anybody.

This is before texting where if you weren't home, you missed the phone call. You missed the phone call. That was what it was. You didn't have to sit. Like, you know, I think that's why I look with the high anxiety. I mean, you remember me when I wouldn't get a text. I'd lose my marbles. I would lose my shit.

And it had never had to do with the text. What it actually had to do with the fact was I just was scared that this person wasn't going to choose me. And I think that comment. misconception of like, oh, well, dating's different now. You're dating in the digital age. It's like, no, that just sounds like an excuse. It sounds like you don't want to just admit that dating is tough and it always has been. Always. And like, yeah, I do remember back in the day in New York when like dating apps had first been announced that, yeah, okay, could I go to a bar and meet someone?

I can still fucking go to a bar and meet someone now just because there are apps. You know what? I actually annoyed the living fuck out of Mima. I watched a Bumble commercial last night. And it's not my app. It's not my app. I don't like it. And the commercial was a girl at a party. she saw the guy was cute so she went on Bumble to match with him. And I sat there and I was like, this is the fucking problem. This is the problem.

God forbid, you just go up and talk to someone and get rejected like the good old days of, hey, great to have met you. Oh, it didn't work, didn't work. Well, are you talking about the good old days when there were matchmakers? When dating was set up for marriages, it wasn't even set up for you to date

and to have any experience, you were going to get married. Yeah. So, I mean, if you go from that to where we are now, okay. So take your preference. And there are some people who are going back to match me. Yeah. A lot of people. A lot of people because, you know, you kind of, some things do work. You know, we can't, we can't isolate one for the other. It's, it's, it's, there's so many ways one can meet. And everybody is different. Some people need that. Yeah. Now, Mom, this was, this was a really beautiful conversation. And it's, it's been something that I've been wanting to do for a while as an adult to talk to you about these things and not as a child and not as an angry child. But I think, just to kind of cap everything, with everything you've learned, with everything that we've gone through,

with everything, what advice do you have for anybody who is maybe post-divorce, is scared, is maybe leaving a narcissist? Like, you've been there. You understand that fear of holy fuck. Do you have any advice for anybody right now that's experiencing this kind of pain, whether they're post-divorce pre-doesn't really matter? Well, I think that at least I can just relate to how I felt. I always felt the need because everybody told me, you've got to move on, you've got to move on, that you've got to do this and you've got to do that. I think that you kind of need to feel the pain. You need to be in the moment.

You need to feel, if you're going to feel sad, you're going to feel the pain. You need to mourn it. It's a mourning. It's a loss of something that was huge because you're not just losing a partner. You're losing part of yourself in that. So I think you need to really be in that moment. And when you're ready and when you feel that comfort,

don't be swayed by other people who tell you, oh, you know, you've been in this too long, you need to get out. Let your body, let your soul, let your heart tell you when you're ready. You know what? Actually, I love that last kind of sentiment of don't be afraid to feel and mourn the part of you because the reality is, too, I've been mourning the death of the version of me that accepted it. I have been mourning the death of me that the girl that allowed it. I'm not angry with her. I'm not mad at her. I love her. I know that that version of me that was married to him was doing the best she could with the information that she knew.

But what I am mourning is letting go of that girl because I know that I had to step into a new version of myself. And that as scary as that was was also how exciting that was. So I'm hopeful that if anybody is listening right now, seeing two people that have gotten out of the depths of fucking hell, the lurches with you having children and assets, me, not lucky. Thank God I didn't have that. But being able to share the story and say, you can get through it.

Yeah, you can get through it. And it's ongoing. Don't be afraid of the remnants. It just gets better and better with time. But you're always going to have the moments where you kind of go back and you think about it. And that's normal. It's okay. It's okay to feel. It's a big transition. Now, have I, am I still experiencing? Yes, I'd have to be honest, I am. But I can handle it better. And I think that's the difference. I found a way to handle it better. I have better tools through therapy. And I understand that these are remnants that are part of a time in my life that I guess I still have to acknowledge. And I haven't fully warned it.

And that's okay. And I think it's just being good to yourself and acknowledging it. You know, I think that at the end of the day is very important. Mama, thank you so much for joining us. I hope that you had a good time. And I hope that anybody listening was able to learn so many amazing things. And I'm just so grateful that, you know, we almost lost you in 2017. and the universe, God, whatever it is, that it's not your time and you're here.

And I just couldn't be more grateful to have you by my side as I've been, all of the things that I've learned, I get to implement now and share with you. And I'm just so grateful that I could be able to experience this with you. So thank you. Oh, the thanks is mine for you. I mean, you've shown yourself to have been, to have done the work and to live it and in an authentic and very real way. So thank you for this opportunity.

You are an amazing young woman. Thanks, Mama. Love you. Thank you guys to everybody for listening. And thank you guys for another amazing week. And thank you for holding space for a very special week. And until next time.