The Sabrina Zohar Show - 49: Cheating, the mind of a cheater and debunking 'once a cheater always a cheater' with The Angry Therapist John Kim!

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by LMFT John Kim to talk about cheaters, cheating, debunking the myth 'once a cheater always a cheater' and how to move on from someone who cheated on you. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Friends, we have a very, very, very special episode this week because I am, I'm a little bit of a schoolgirl, if you will. I have John Kim on, who's the angry therapist, and for anyone who's familiar with him, I have read John's books. I have been following him for years, so, like, this was truly a dream come true, and I'm so excited. And today we talk about a really top, hot topic that you guys ask about all the time. Cheating. We go over it all. Once a cheater, always a cheater. We go into the nitty gritty about cheating, what causes somebody to do it, how to move on past it, the emotional versus the physical cheating,

everything. And I really wanted to talk to somebody who works with people, works with clients, works with others who understand the ins and outs. And it's not just these stupid fucking bumper sticker slogans that we are seeing on TikTok, but really get what brings somebody to cheating and kind of how to be able to move through this. So I am so, so excited. Guys, we got a lot of new things coming up for the new year. So I'm completely shifting my business in the way that I work with folks. I won't be offering the one-on-ones like we are. They're actually going to move into a subscription service model type thing.

So it's going to be a three-month commitment with me. You get two sessions a month plus the unlimited messaging Monday through Friday with me. And it's just something, a way that I can actually work with everybody more intensely and not just be taking. I was taking 40 new clients a month. So you can imagine it just was killing me. So starting January 1st, that's going to be an option. If you're interested in joining, there's nine spots left. So once that's it, it'll be booked up for three months.

You won't be able to start again until the March or the April spot if somebody even cancels. And that's if they don't continue. So you can always just email, DM, whatever, let me know you're interested. And we can get this by to you. But I am restructuring. I'm going to be adding courses. There's going to be just so much newness coming for next year because I want to be able to expand. We're going to have subscription service for the podcast where you'll get ad free and bonus content

with me and tech guy. So much in the works that I'm just so fucking excited and grateful to share with you. As always, don't worry. This podcast will remain free. but we do have ads. So please support, you know, share it with your friends. Please buy stuff from the sponsors that are so gracious that are making this episode for us happen for free, which is amazing. And yeah, and please support my clothing company software. So software is something I started when my mom got sick. She went to the doctor with a headache and they found six brain

enderisms. I can't even do math anymore. And I created this fabric that literally feels like a cloud. Sure, it's just a jogger in a hoodie, but it's the comfiest fucking thing you're ever going to wear that's made with heart, made with love, made right here in L.A. fully and it's completely sustainable. So if you're going to put your money somewhere, at least put it somewhere where you know it fucking matters. So guys, as always, thank you for everything. Link and show notes, if you need anything at all, don't forget to follow on the socials, do the work, Instagram, and Sabrina dot so are on TikTok and Instagram. And yeah, and please, last bit, do not forget to rate the show. If you go to Spotify, it's the three dots at the top, right in the bar. It says rate show,

or if you go to Apple and you scroll to the bottom, you claim a review. It literally means more to me than words can say. So I beg and plead, share it with a friend. and just leave a review. That's all I need. So guys, without further ado, let's get into an incredible fucking episode. And I'm so, so excited to welcome John to the Do the Work family. Awesome. John, welcome to Do the Work podcast. I am so excited to have you. Yeah, I just had her on my podcast and now I am in her house and we're going to have another party. Yeah. So for anybody, John, I would love if you could just even welcome, like introduce yourself. Yes.

Yeah, for everyone who doesn't know, we were just on the Angry Therapist podcast so you can listen to me on there. But John, I'd love you to introduce yourself to the album. 15 years ago, went through a divorce on my way to becoming a therapist and lived in two modes, dread, worry, grew up in Los Angeles, became a therapist. And then I realized I do want to help people, but I felt the clinical system was broken. And I wasn't, I didn't feel authentic with the DSM in a nondescript room with those shiny balls and the, you know, the waterfall. I just, I just didn't, I didn't want to wear sleeves. And so I said, I'm going to get on my motorcycle and I'm going to make house calls. I'm going to do a couple sessions in the park.

I did everything that you weren't supposed to do, except sleep with clients. So I called myself a coach to get around the rules. And ever since then, I've just been working my own way unconventionally. I love that. And I've read your books. I've been watching along in your journey. So I'm just so super excited to have you. And I think I wanted somebody who is experienced working with other people to talk about the topic

that we're going to talk about because I think cheating is such a, it's such a tough subject. Yeah. It's such a tough thing. It's very heated. Very heated. It's very like, I mean, I know at least, like I grew up as a child of the byproduct of having two parents. Like my dad, to the point where like, my dad cheated on my mom so often, I called her my second mom. Like, how did you know that he was cheating on her? Because she was in your house. When I was eight, my dad had a sleepover at the woman's house and I slept in the guest room and my mom's out of town. And it was, that was the first time. And I remember going to dinner going, dad is our other, is the other mom coming? And he looked at me and goes, don't you ever say that. This is her name. Don't ever tell your mother. And so I instantly knew.

And then years later, we found out my dad had been cheating on my mom the entire fucking time. But that. So as a child of that, I understand the impact of that. So I've never, I've emotionally cheated on somebody like, and then I break up with them a couple of days later, but I've never physically done it. But I'd love, I would want to even just start and dive into one, do you have any experience personally if you want to share? You knew I was going to go there. So I actually did a whole episode on this and I was so terrified. I'm really transparent about everything and this one scared the shit out of me.

So I've never cheated on anyone I've been with. But then I looked at it and I said, wait, have I? Because I met someone, I ran into an ex. It was early on. I was in my 20s. my first long-term girlfriend, three years. And we ended kind of mute. She ended it, but it was young love.

So it wasn't explosive. It was very calm. It was a great first experience. And then later she told me, like 10 years later, we ran to each other in a, I think it was a codependency. It was one of these meetings, because as a therapist, you have to go to all the AA meetings just to learn. And I ran into her.

And it was like a CODA meeting. And she said, hey, you know, I just want to say something. I hope this doesn't make you mad, but I cheated on you once. I kissed a boy at a concert right before we broke up. And, you know, I'm sorry, but I was just, you know, we're young and stupid. And then I said, you know what I did? I thought we were going to get married. And I didn't have a lot of experience with women.

So I thought I needed to get it out of my system. And I didn't want to break up with you. So I hired a masseuse. and I got some happy endings and a sex worker and all and I did it a couple times in the family restaurant, you know, when it was close

and my mom walks in with a spatula and she's like, what the fun? And so yes, so technically I did cheat on her. That is cheating, of course. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And what I love is that, thank you for her.

And she cheated on me too. Thank you for. And we were laughing about it. You know, because it's been so long. We're like, oh my God, we're 20s and we're stupid and it's so funny. And especially you're like, Kist a boy, you're like,

I did a little more than that. But one, I, thank you for the vulnerability and just sharing that because it's true. It's like, we've all done something. Like even if I almost did, but then I was like, no, I have a partner and I broke up with them. But like, yeah. But I think I love that you brought up. It wasn't because, oh, she wasn't satisfying me.

It was because of something within you. It was my own shit. It was your own shit. So I kind of wanted to start there. Yeah. It was like, typically speaking, obviously we can't like mass, you know, diagnose every single person, but typically speaking, like the psychology about cheating. Yeah.

I'd love to debunk that a little because I think the average human is going to go and say, I'm not good enough. What did I do? You know, we hit our core beliefs. And for anyone listening, John's a fellow former anxious attacher. So he's not coming at this from like some holier than now. He understands what we're all going through. But I'd love to hear a little bit of your like working with people.

What you've really seen is like the psychology behind like what kind of why people cheat. Yeah. I mean, so there's no blanket answer. Yeah. And also I got to say there's a difference. I don't want to minimize cheating is cheating. It's betrayal. Okay.

So that's, that's fact. There is a difference between, or at least in my opinion, your relationship is drifting, you're at a party, you know, wrong place, wrong time. You have a drink. There's a connection and you end up kissing or hooking up with someone and then you feel guilty and you regret it. There's a difference between that and someone intentionally having an affair. Yes.

For like your dad, for multiple years, having double lives. Yes, they're both cheating. but someone making a mistake because their relationship isn't good or because they're not in a good place and they happen to find an X or something or they feel undesired and someone on the plane made them feel really desired

and so they were weak and something happened is very different than the intention of I'm going to start something else with someone else, love that person and not break up with this person and then do that for a very long time. presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.

Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. And do you think It's like with murder It's like What is it called? Premeditated versus like Kind of yeah

manslaughter or whatever Do you think Like in your experience With working with couples If you've seen the difference Between the infidelities Let's say Is one necessarily like

Can you work with one Like the accidental Is this something that people can work through Because I think the number one question People asked was Once a cheater always a cheater? Yeah which is I hate it I hate

Well any generalizations is bad If you wanted to he would I hate the bumper sticker shit But the once a cheater, always a cheater. Was that? If you wanted to be would? If you wanted to, he would. Like that statement. I don't like the 140 characters are under trying to self-diagnose people.

But I think, yeah, I was like, the always a cheater, once a cheater, always a cheater, I think you're bringing up two really great examples of like, yeah, maybe in one example, this person that's been cheating for years versus the one-off. Is there something like as far as, like, the work that they have to do or things like that, like one versus the other? You know what I mean? Like, can you work through this? Yes, I, well, first of all, infidelity is one of the hardest things to work through.

It's just because what happens is someone will decide the person that didn't cheat it, didn't cheat will maybe decide, okay, you know what, I'm going to stay in this. You know, we've built a lot of, you know, it happened once, whatever. I'm going to forgive this person. And then when they fight, they pull that shit back out. Hey, remember that party? You owe me. And so it just never gets resolved. Yeah.

Two people have to see the infidelity as something that came in from the outside and both people need to take some ownership. Now, of course, the person who cheated, obviously they did something wrong, right? But if the person that was cheated on only stays in victim mode, it's just that dynamic is just not going to work. It's lopsided. They're going to use the cheating as leverage. it's always going to be like in their back pocket. And so if two people say this is what came into our relationship and now we both have to take ownership,

what is the ownership that you're going to take and what is the ownership I'm going to take? And maybe the person that didn't cheat, yeah, you didn't do anything wrong. But if you're 50% of any relationship. So if you look at the relationship, maybe you didn't speak up as much. Maybe there are things that you probably did or you let something go, you know, that led to cracks in a relationship and eventually the other person, of course, made their own choice. But if two people take ownership, then you're laying new tracks.

Yeah. And if only it's, okay, I'm going to forgive. And by forgive, they just forget, but they really don't forget. And they move on and they bury. It always comes back up. 100%. So it never gets healed, basically. Totally.

I mean, I think for me, like, I think I would personally struggle. Like, I've never, I mean, I've never knowing what they've been cheated. on if they did, I don't know where they found the time. But I think the trust issue is like that would be, I think probably the hardest thing for me because it's like, I think what is a lot of people kind of are struggling with too that I can hear is, you know, I can't trust people. I don't trust other people because they always hurt me or they cheat on me or things like that. And it's like, how can somebody work through that? Because in my world, I'm like, you got to trust yourself. You know, you got to like understand what's going on and be able to like to see what the dynamics are. But what is a way like, after you cheat and you come through this, like, how can you actually rebuild trust with somebody to feel like maybe they won't do it again? I think trust is on one side a decision and it's a daily choice like forgiveness, right? And some days it's easy, some days it's hard. But then also trust has to be earned.

So the person that cheated has to earn that trust back, you know? So whether that means, yeah, go through my phone or I have nothing to hide or, you know, whatever the effort is, right? And also, trust can be earned through something that has nothing. to do with what happened, meaning it can be the person is out communicating more or it's more present in a relationship or whatever. So trust has to be built that's foundational for two people to come back together and start healing from the cheating. And so yeah, you're right. I mean, trust is kind of the thing where once cracked, it's really hard to glue back together. Yeah,

because like somebody wrote in and she said, I don't understand why do I keep getting cheated on every time I'm in a new relationship, but keep going with partners. And so, So for me, I was like, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. I was like, okay, there's got to be something here. If you're consistently dating cheaters, every single guy you cheat. There's got to be some kind of disconnect here. Or are you just, are you attracting or attracted to a certain type of person? And that type of person just has a high chance of infidelity or cheating on you or being, you know, or lying or whatever, you know.

I mean, you know, every situation I think is different. But, you know, I think the biggest thing with cheating is we, we. put all the spotlight on the cheater, put that person on the cross, and the person that got cheated on, no responsibility. Totally. And so for it to work, for it to, you know, for you to rebuild something, both people have to take responsibility and ownership. It almost has to be like, okay, that happened.

If we don't change our dynamic, it's not going to work. Totally. And so what does it take? So the question isn't like, you know, how was it? Who did you cheat? Like what those? It's more like how are we going to change our dynamic? So we're now entering this round two as completely new.

Totally. Yeah. When I like that, that exploration of instead of it always being about the other person of like, well, what did she have that I didn't? It's like, what are you lacking in our relationship? What can I? How can I facilitate certain things?

And what do you need? What do I need? Because like I look at even like my dad, for instance, textbook narcissist, like it's all there. But his cheating, it's like it comes from a place of such insecurity. Yeah. Because that's how he gains his validation because he's the type that he'll go from woman to woman. I mean, I've seen it in a week.

I'll have seven different women. And he's just constantly like, and I hate to say it, but like he's a fuck boy, he'll say, like, why take him to dinner when I can get what I want after drinks? And I'm like, oh my God, you're the men I avoid. Like, thank you for being such a great example of this. But I think like. And he's doing it before apps. Exactly.

How do you find the time to go? The bars? Or where he's finding these girls? So my dad had a very colorful pass. He had gay clubs in New York and he had porn theaters for back in the 80s in New York. So like he had his social. He had his pond to fish from. Exactly. And like my mom had three kids that she's taken care of. So he's just kind of going off. But I think like, you know, I think from a long time, even my own mom was struggling of like, am I not good enough and that. And it's like even that dynamic, I'm like, okay, mom, you can't own all of this. It can't all be your fault. And I think as the person that, like you said, that victim mode of like as the person that gets cheated on, it's an automatic, I need to own everything. There must have been all of these things I did wrong. That's the other extreme that is also not good. Exactly. It's like we can't blame everything on them. But we also can't blame everything on us. So it's like it's really like. like you said, kind of finding that equilibrium and that balance of, yeah, I'm willing to take some ownership, but I'm not willing to take all. Now, I do have a question for you. For people, I want to do the both sides of the coin. For somebody who has cheated or somebody who has been, or somebody who's receiving the information. So let's say you're on a date. And like, I had a friend and she was like,

yeah, this guy was on a date with. He told me he had cheated on his past partner. And I even have a client like that. And it was a one time thing. It was just like a kind of like what you said. It was just like wasn't happy in the relationship, wasn't able to communicate to his partner, did one thing stupidly. They broke up shortly. They tried. It didn't work. They broke up.

How can it be like what's a good way, I guess, to, for anybody that's cheated on someone to be able to openly and authentically share that on a date. So like in case anybody ever asked, like, hey, well, you've ever been, you know, have you ever cheated or what had your last relationship end? How can somebody like say this with taking ownership by not blaming too much? And then on that flip side, the second question will be the person receiving it. How can you look between this is a red flag? Oh my God.

They had an affair for six years versus. They had one fuck up, you know, 10 years ago and they cheated on their partner. And that's why they divorced. If you were on a date, would you rather have that information? How would you like that information presented to you? Yeah. Does it need to be a huge announcement and like, hey, just to let you know, you know, I have herpes.

Just to let you know, I did this. Or is it a confession? Or is it like through banter, casual talk, hey, this happened. And yeah, it's happened. Like, how would you, I guess that depends on how many dates you, been on with this person. But how would you like that information presented? So personally, it's a funny to talk about the herpes thing because I've actually received that many a time. I live in New York. It's like, it was everybody in their mother fucking house.

Yeah. And you're like, you don't have to tell me this. I have it too. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure we all do. But it was kind of that same thing where it was, I loved it when people either would casually enter it into a conversation, especially if we were talking about intimacy or would text me like after because it's like, hey, I was uncomfortable saying this to your face. If you're cool, that great, let's go out again. If not, I totally get it. And I think with cheating, for me personally, I think what would, I think what would land on me because like this happened to my friend and she's like, is this a red flag? And I was like, well, let's hear what he had to say. I was like, he took ownership. He said, I fucked up. I've done a lot of work. I realized I was super insecure. I wasn't confident to talk to my partner about it. And I did something that I severely regretted in the moment and now. And he was like, and I've learned so much now how to communicate with my partners to avoid this happening again. Have you ever had a moment where you think, man, someone should really do something about this? Then you realize maybe that someone is you.

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That's gofundme.com. Gofundme.com. Yeah, so you said something that just the, what, hitting the nail on the head. So it's not about the information, right? If you just judge information, you're judging the person. You have to know the story. And also, you can tell by how someone discloses the information if they're taking ownership or if they had.

Right. If someone said, yeah, you know, I cheated, but she was horrible to me. And then, you know, I was, everyone would cheat on her. Like, you know, or is it like, hey, this happened, I cheated. And here's what I learned from it. And here are my things that I'm working on. And because I'm interested in you, I'm letting you know, this is where I'm at, you know. That to me feels trusting.

That to me, so, you know, the information is presented in a way where, oh, the person actually did an investigation of self, went somewhere and came back and here are their findings. Yeah. That to me is attractive. It's honest. You know, it's taking responsibility as opposed to here's an event that happened. Totally. Here's an event that happened. I mean, I think somebody had asked like, do I need to say anything?

And I was like, okay, well, let's reverse it. Exactly like you said. It's like, would you want to build a relationship with somebody who didn't tell you the truth? it depends. I don't think you need to say anything on the first date. I think it depends on when it happened. If it's literally your last relationship and we're talking about stuff like that,

it's like we can't avoid that. Like you said, if you cheated when you were 22, and it was something like you're like, I mean, it's like, no, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

But if it's within the last like year, I think it's important at the very least to share if somebody asks, I don't think you need to offer that information. Yeah. But I wanted to see your thoughts on it as like building trusting relationships. Like, yeah,

is there kind of like a fine balance here of being able to be clear and communicative while also like not oversharing. Yeah, because I think there's no, you know, cheating is such a personal, it's such personal information. There has to be some kind of runway where it feels organic.

Yeah. Because also there's something about information like that shoved in my face where it's like, well, it's too early. Yeah, I don't know you. I don't know you yet. Why are you telling me about, you know, what you, so I think you have to do what feels right to you, do what feels honest.

And obviously, if you are disclosing that the way that I would take it is if someone was telling me that and I was dating them, I'd be like, oh, this person's actually saying this because they're interested in me. Right. Why are they, why would they even say it? So it's almost a compliment. So if I judge that person, then it's unfair because they're being vulnerable with me and

sharing something that I may judge at the risk. They're risking that because they actually want to pursue something with me. Yeah. So that's how I would take it. I actually really like that you brought that up because I had a client and she was saying like that she went on a date with the guy and she's like, he told me a cheat on his past. And she's like, you know, he's going to do this to me and blah, blah. And I was like, or perspective shift. I was like, maybe he told you because he genuinely wants to be honest with you.

He wants to share those things. Because like I think there's a difference between if I'm on a first date and if somebody asked me out like a non-negotiable, if I said, you know, cheating. Like I was never, I'm never going to be with somebody that would do that. If someone's like, okay, well, then maybe this is a good time for me to tell you, I have done that. Okay, cool. That makes sense because you're literally talking about it. And you're kind of like, all right, well, hey, if that's a non-negotiable to you, if you don't want to be with anyone that's ever done this and let's like walk away right now, similar to the herpes thing.

It's like, hey, if that's not going to work for you, let's not go on 10 more dates to figure this out. Yeah, yeah. But I think if it's something, I always notice, it's like if you're wearing it like a scarlet letter and you're kind of coming in with shame, it's going to be received as that versus, yeah, I did it. You know, I did it. I've processed it. Like, I'm not ashamed of it.

If you're going to judge me for it. There's also, you just writing me, yeah. So there's something about the confession that can be taking not giving. Yeah. It can be something about like the person just unloading. on someone because of their own guilt, right? That can be happening as well. So you just have to sense it.

You know, where is it coming from and why? The other thing about cheating that I think happens a lot, and this is a generalization, but mostly women, internalization. Yeah. Your mom, a great example. What did I do wrong? Could I have, you know, wore more heels or had more sex or made more meals or, you know, whatever? And no, like maybe had nothing to do with you.

maybe he needed, like you said, validation approval constantly, or maybe he didn't have a strong sense of self. So he found it in, you know, someone else or didn't feel desired or whatever. And that isn't the partner's responsibility. Totally. And actually this kind of segues into what I wanted to talk about too is like what's going through the mind. Like if I mean, like I said, obviously not personal and this is not like a sweeping generalization, but specifically if you've worked with people that have gone through this. Like when somebody has either decided to cheat or like does it, do you, are they like, do you find at least with the people that you've worked with that like this is a conscious decision for the most part? Or I think we obviously know like between the affair of,

you know, 10 years. That's very conscious. You know what the fuck you're doing versus the one-offs. But I've always been just curious of like, what is going through the mind of somebody when they're doing this? Like are they just forgetting about everything and they're just in the moment? Are they feeling the guilt? I guess it's personal as well. But I think in your experience, with the people that you've worked with, what's happening? I mean, it's so hard to answer because there's no blanket statement. It depends on the relationship. Cheating can happen because you're unhappy in your own life.

Cheating can happen. Cheating can happen because it's not even an emotional thing, but just because there's just no sex happening. And maybe it's just skin hunger. Cheating can happen because maybe your partner isn't into like maybe kink or something that you're into that is a fetish. Cheating can happen because you don't want to disrupt house and family. Like you want your cake and eat it too.

Right. But then you also want to, you know. That's my dad. Right. Which is not, which is, I'm not saying that's good. That's very selfish, of course. Right. To me, that's the worst kind of cheating.

Yeah. You know. You want it both. Yes, because to me, that is living a double light. Yeah. To me, that is selfish because you're also holding other people hostage. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Instead of saying, okay, you know what, this isn't working for me. Let's break this up. It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard for the kids, whatever. Now I can, you know, go pursue what I want is honest to me. To me, I have more respect for that than let me try to spin the, let me try orchestrate this whole thing. 100%.

No one's going to know about it. And then the guilt that you carry. Also, the energy it takes to do that. It's like, Jesus, how do you even do that? When I hear people that are like, I had a double life and like, where did you find the, I can barely get the energy to put my shoes on half the time, but you had a whole other life? I'm exhausted thinking about that for you. No, and I appreciate, like, that's also the thing.

Like, I never like to make super sweep and generalizations, but I do try to answer questions at least to be like, okay, here's some ways, some reasons. But I think the one thing that I, like, most people asked is like two questions. one, signs. How do you kind of, are there signs that you're just kind of like, hey, there's something here? But then two, like, you know, what if this person denies it? Like, how do you even like handle something like this? If I, you know, I think for me, like, if I, if my partner came to me and told me he cheated,

my first question would be like, okay, what came up for you that you needed to do that? I wouldn't assume that I did anything wrong off the back because I'd be like, you tell me, because I'm not going to say, what was it? Because I'm not pretty enough. It's like, bitch, I know I am. You had your own things. But I think for other people, if you, like, are suspecting it or you don't know and they deny it.

It's like. How do you kind of navigate this? Well, you know, I think so if my partner cheated on me, the first thing I would do, of course, there would be, you know, hurt and some kind of reaction. But at the end of the day, I would want to know what happened. Yeah. From her point of view, like her internal, internal journey. Walk me through what happened. Because if it's because we base it just on the action.

Right. Oh, you fuck someone. Yeah. That's total betrayal. Let's pull the curtain back. Oh, your mom died three months ago. Right. Oh, we were in a bad place.

We just declared bank. Whatever. What happened for you to get there because I just want to understand it, you know? And then the other piece is, how are you telling me this? Meaning where are you at as far as, are you saying this as in, okay, I cheated, we're done? Or are you saying I cheated? I want to take ownership? Like, are you trying to earn it back?

Right. You know, and you could tell. Like, if someone is sorry and they want to take ownership and they want to use the cheating as a catalyst to their growth, that's very different than, hey, you weren't giving me enough attention. So look what I did. Right. You know, maybe you need to give me more attention. Like, whatever. It's a conversation.

Exactly. It's like understanding both parties. I think, like, one thing that I think a lot of people struggle with is, especially because a lot of the daters I have are still those early stages. I was like, of course, I have people that are in relationships that listen. But I think the point of contention that a lot of people find is the times, like, you know those, I mean, you've been with your partner for a while. But like, you're human and you know, those first like three, four months, you know, when you're kind of just establishing exclusivity. Are you on the apps anymore? Are you not?

And I get a lot of people that are like, he cheated on me or like, I found out that he's been sleeping with someone else. And it's like, okay. And then, like, I had one client and she, like, approached to the guy. And he was like, I didn't do it. I swear, like that. I did not send, like, I did not like that person's profile. And it's like, okay, listen, I have the proof for it in front of me and you're still fucking denying it. But I think that's where a lot of people are like, how can we look at signs or cues or like, if somebody's blatantly denying it?

It's like, what do you do? I actually don't even know. I'm like, follow your gut. What if your gut doesn't know? What are your thoughts? Well, I think things will unfold because I don't think it's, it's not even just about cheating. Their behavior patterns, if they're lying to you will show up in other ways, you know. Oh, I was actually in my friend's house or it'll just start to show up.

And then you kind of see them the whole cumulatively as a character and you assess their character traits. I wouldn't just put all the weight on if he liked a profile picture or, you know, because you could just go back and forth forever. It's like, you know. But as a person, as a whole person, yeah, I noticed he also treats the Valley guy shitty. Yeah. And he also lied to my brother about, it's a white lie, but he lied to my brother about how much he bench presses. And then he like, so you kind of like, okay, I don't, because for me, it's a guy. cumulative thing. I like the 360 of a person, not just on this one single thing they did or didn't do.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Totally. No, I like that you're looking at more holistically. It's not just one plus one equals two. It's like, no, no, no, let's see. How did we get to this two? Like, how did we get the one and the one here? But ownership is huge. Yeah. Ownership is everything. So if you're with someone who does, so whether it's cheating or they forgot to do the dishes or whatever they need to own, it could be very small. But if they never. take ownership. Yeah. Think about it because if they don't take ownership, what's going to happen is when you fight

and you're going to fight. It's not about how many times we fight, it's about how we fight, but ownership is basically probably the biggest thing when it comes to fighting. If people are not taking ownership, it's just nothing is going to get resolved, right? So to me, that's the bigger red flag than if the person, you know, like some hot guy or whatever, did something that would DM someone or whatever. I was going to say, actually, I wanted your thoughts on this because I wanted a male's perspective on this one specific instance that I get so many women that write in on. He liked another girl's Instagram photos and she had her boobs out and, you know, he's being, I think he's cheating on me and I noticed that they like each other's stuff.

And it's like, to me, I see that. I'm just like, are you trying to find a problem or is there a problem? How do we that balance and from a man's perspective. Yeah, and also I'm a 50 year old man. So I don't have anything to do with it. But I get it, I'll be honest with you. meant today. And, you know, the temperature with relationships and all this also with like monogamy being on trial and all these different types of relationships. People are now kind of

open and customizing everything. Yeah. Look, we're on this planet one time. Yeah. It's a very short time. Is it worth the fight that your partner likes? Here's the other thing. Your partner is going to find other people attractive. Yeah. Period. And so are you. That doesn't mean that they want to build a life with that person. Totally. And yeah, when I run it across people who are like, oh, they like this girl on Instagram or they're attracted to this famous person. Like, and?

Yeah, so am I. Yeah, exactly. And so if your partner says he's only attracted to you on this planet, he's lying. But there's a difference between loving someone, choosing to build a life with someone or being attracted. You're going to be attracted to qualities of other people. here it's we're human and that's okay. So if you happen to like someone's body

or you happen to like someone's humor or you happen to like, here's the other thing. If is it okay that someone likes a celebrity like Bright Pitt or Ryan Reynolds, but not okay if they like someone who's not famous because it feels more threatening, right? Why?

If they just like it because they just happen to like it, like they like motorcycles. And also it's on them. Right. It's on them. Let them go through their journey. Men are very visual creatures. And that's,

it's like, I remember I'll never forget. Like my sister and her husband have been together for 20 something years. Like they've been together since I'm like 18. And I was single and I went with my sister to a tattoo shop like in New York. And the guy was so hot. So gorgeous. And I remember her like me and being like, Jamie, don't you think he's hot? And she's like, yeah, he's a very attractive human being.

And that was the first time I looked at her and I was like, you admitted that. And she's like, just because I'm with my partner. They weren't married at the time. She's like, just because I have. a serious boyfriend doesn't mean I can't acknowledge this man is very attractive. She's like, but I'm not going to do anything about this. And that was me learning at a young age, like, too conflicting thoughts. So I can find this person attractive and like a photo, but also not want to fuck them. I'm going to show Sabrina, my Instagram. It's a hot take. What do you see?

You see? Motorcycles and babes. And lifting? Lifting and like, yeah. And a lot of butts and like, and a lot of butts and. Yeah, lots of motorcycle. Am I going to DM these women? No. Am I going to pursue a relationship. But I also like motorcycles. I also like, they're just, there's visual. They're just magazine. Exactly. My partner says all the time. He's like, yes, I like a lot of the girls. He's like, but they're fitness girls. He's like, I'm learning from them. And yeah, they're very good looking. He's like they're attractive. It's like, that's such a point of contention, especially because I think social media and dating is still so new. You know, like, you're like, you said you're 50. You're like, I've been dating for well before all of this. You dated before

fucking cell phones. You were dating before. You were texting all the time. So I think there has to be like a little bit of like come back to earth. But I get so many girls of like, Like, no, he's cheating on me or he's messaging or he's he's liking all these girls' photos. And it's like, all right, if you're uncomfortable that he has like 30 only fans models that he follows, it's like, then don't date this guy. Like, I don't know what to tell you. But for you to try to like start a fight or have a conversation with him, it's like. Here's what's important. How does he treat you?

How does he make you feel? What's the kind of space that he is creating for you? Yeah. What's his capacity? Those are the things you should put on the top shelf. Yeah. Not if he liked a pretty girl on Instagram, right? And also liking someone's photos very different than flirting with him at a restaurant.

Yes. Or engaging with them in person, right? And, you know, all that said, I'm also human. And Vanessa says bluntly, you know, someone comes on TV. Oh, look at Jared Leto. He's hot. Oh, yeah. And does it sting a little bit?

Yeah, a little bit. But does it mean that I love her less? Does it mean she's going to cheat on me? No, it's just. So it is human to be a little jealous. Yeah. I think that's normal. Yes.

But jealous behavior is where, you know, know, I'm not now telling her what to wear or, you know, stop putting, you know, devices on her car or tracking her, you know. Yeah, no longer allowed to watch Geroletto. It's like, yeah, I mean, like, I know my partner, he likes women that are like 10 times darker skin ton of I am. Like, that's just his type. So, of course, we'll be walking down the street and this beautiful woman will walk by and

I'll see his head turned. And it's like, don't worry, babe, because the guy behind her with a six pack that's tattooed and tall, my head's turning. Yeah. I used to get really kind of look. And then I started realizing, I'm like, wait, that's my own insecurity because I'm worried, oh, she has something I don't. Well, here's the other test. Well, if Vanessa and she does sometimes say, oh, that woman is hot. Yeah. Why is that okay? I do that all the time. Why is it? Yeah. And you know what? You're like,

oh, yeah, she is too. But it, but why can't, it's just a gender thing. Why can't you say, well, he's a babe? Yeah. Because it's threatening. I think that's, I wanted to, like, touch on it quickly because I think so many people put that into, like, cheating or they're being unfaithful. And I'm like, there's a very big difference between putting your penis and somebody else's vagina and liking a photo. Like, these are two very different experiences. One makes you human. The other one is a betrayal. Yeah. And like I think that's actually what I was curious about like, are there specific traits or are there specific behaviors that are like habitual with cheaters?

Like we obviously know lying, you know, certain things. But are there certain things to look out for especially if you're dating. Like if you are used to dating cheaters, like what can people look out for if any? So I like like I'm always about. cumulative and the whole person and how they're being. So like white lies about other things that have nothing to do with cheating, it just means that they had that capability. Yeah.

So then, yes, they may be lying about other things. I always bring it back to the relationship. So instead of the person, how is the relationship doing? So if it's me, you, and the relationship is its own living, breathing thing, how's the relationship doing? So instead of saying, I'm going to take a black light to you and your history and who you're like instead of the pointed finger examine their relationship because you're going to find holes in a relationship that's what that's what you should work on and repair not on if someone is liking bikini pictures you know what I'm saying so examine the relationship and then come

into it like hey I think these are just some things we should work on right and the cheating is a manifestation or behavior it's residue from usually from the unhappiness or the drift in a relationship I was going to say, I feel like a lot of it's probably like communication aspects of like. Yeah, of course. Usually I had one client, he was like, I just couldn't talk to my partner. He was like, she was really, really difficult to talk to. And he was like, so I just talked to somebody else and like created a new thing and felt safe with someone else. And it's like, I don't always even think that cheating is necessarily.

Okay. I'm not going to say cheating is a good thing. Like obviously we know that. But I mean, it's not always a bad thing in the sense where I know for me like when I emotionally cheated, which I don't know if like emotional versus physical. It's like, yeah, I mean, emotional sucks too. you find out that someone's been texting somebody for months and you're like, but you can't even talk to me. But when I had that, and it was like a two-week thing, it was not anything serious. What it did for me was it shed light. I'm having feelings for somebody else and not my partner that

I'm not able to have for my partner because this wasn't the person for me. And so I don't necessarily always think like it's the worst thing to happen. I think that sometimes that can put somebody, especially if it's like, if they acknowledge it, especially emotional cheating, if it happens quick and you tell your partner. But I also think that could shed some light on, wow, wait, maybe these are some holes and some issues in my relationship that I couldn't put my finger on that now I'm acknowledging. Sure, but imagine this. Okay, so you emotionally cheated.

You confess that. Let's say we're together. You confess that to me, right? So there's two roads. I say, what the fuck? You just cheated on me? And now I've got that card and blah, blah, blah, right? This whole thing, right?

Or I want to know what I can do better in this relationship because obviously there was drift. Right. There's something that you are not getting here. from us, from this relationship is why you are, you know, and also maybe something that's happening in your life. Now, if you got that, if I was able to hold that, and of course I would also, you know, be heard and whatever,

how much safer would you feel in this? Oh my God. How much more, you know what I'm talking about? Game change. Game changing, yeah. And I think that's, so it's a difference between soil, rich soil for growth and just, I mean, nothing, just weeds.

But I'm glad you actually brought up kind of like that victim mentality because I think there are a lot of the, especially women, you know, like guys, yeah, sure, but it's like there's, you know, most of the time we hear like the guy's cheating on the girl. Like, of course, it's women that cheat all the time. But I'm talking specifically the people I kind of talk to. And it'll be a lot of just like, I just don't understand. I'm just, everything is just the victim of like, how could this happen to me?

How could this happen to me? And it's like, then there's, I think like you said, there's a certain amount of accountability both people need to take. It can't always be that the other person did this, the other person did this. Because it's like at the end of the day, yeah, they did. But then what's our part in this as well? You weren't the perfect Pollyanna. Everything was incredible. But this person just so happened to veer off to the left.

It's like we, I think, still need to have a little bit of accountability because somebody actually asked, like, how do I differentiate between a genuine apology and somebody you trying to manipulate me? And it's like, that's also like me knowing myself and being able to look at my partner and be like, you're full of shit, aren't you? Not buying into the lies or not buying into it. But I actually was going to see kind of with you, like, when it comes to that rebuilding of trust and, okay, you know your partner is cheated or you found out.

And whether you have proof or not, you're going to go and maybe say like, hey, you know, I actually don't even know how I would start that conversation personally of like, I think you might be cheating. I don't know. But it's like how can someone differentiate between like somebody who's genuinely saying like I fucked up versus the manipulation of, let me just say this to her so that she'll, you know, be quiet. Oh, I think it's going to, you're going to know over time. Yeah.

You're going to, you're just going to, you're going to know if, well, first, if, you know, when someone says, hey, listen, I did this and I want to take some ownership. Ownership to me's action. Yeah. So I want to earn the trust back. if after the person cheated two days later you find another phone number you know i'm talking about another phone number so i think over time um consistent action but also if you've been cheated on one of the things that is kind of um that i think is ownership but it's more of an inner thing is

okay i've been betrayed what is what am i being active what's act besides the obviously cheated on me of course i understand of course anyone's going to feel you know betrayal and hurt and pain but even deeper than that what is it activating in me so for example you have a story. You have a story that your dad has cheated on her mom. That's a very specific story. Many have that story. So if someone cheats on you now, there's no way it's not going to activate stuff while you were growing up, which then is going to amplify what this really is. Right. And even though it, yes, I get it. Someone cheated on you. But in your mind, it may be the worst thing that you can do to me or, you know, it may be a very hot stove. And so ownership for you

would be to realize that and to share an example. express that to your partner, hey, this is my experience of it because of my story. So it's not just cheating, but, you know, my dad cheated my mom. And so for me, it's just like total abandonment or whatever. Yeah. And here's what I'm doing. I'm talking to a therapist about it. Right. And that's what's going to rebuild trust. And then he's like, oh, this is what's happening for her. And knowing that, here's how I'm going to adjust and here's what I'm going to do turn to trust back. So people have to talk about it in that way, not like you cheated, you know, no, you're not doing this, you can't wear that, you cheat it, you know, like that kind of thing.

Well, what you're saying is like a lot of vulnerability is required, which it's true. And it's like, yeah, it is going to require. I think people are, I'm not going to show that side. And it's like, all right, you're only hurting yourself if you're not going to be honest and up front. Did you, do you ever watch 90 day fiance or is that my trash? Oh, I've seen it. I've seen it. Yeah, yeah.

So they have the one's trash. But they had the last resort and it was like the couples that are kind of like falling off the the rails and trying to help them and they meet with therapists and everything. And there's just one couple. And the girl like, found out her partner was cheating because he had like a. you know, something on his mouth. And it was like a bacterial infection and it was, you know, clear that would happen. And it's like, you know, for a while and like everybody was, oh, poor thing, poor thing, poor thing.

But then came out that she had been, that after that happened, she had been having an affair with this other guy for like two months. And then she even had met with him while they were there. And what annoyed me was every time they'd go to the therapy session, she would just berate how he did. And it's like, I'm sorry. So because he did all of that, now all that. a sudden automatically you have a free ride to be able to fuck somebody else anytime you want because you cheated on me. So for me, like that example, it's actually less, the cheating is the color dye marker

showing other things and it's her character and not taking ownership, which to me is what's going to bring the plane down. Totally. Not the action of cheating. Totally. Yeah. And it turned out like what happened. He was doing anything.

He was like, I'll do anything to make this work. She ended up going with the other guy. Yeah. And so I was like, you know, that it just annoyed me because she came on so very. victim mode. The whole thing was poor me, poor me. And it's like, yeah, but you were also fucking this person over too. I'm not saying it's okay what he did, but you have a choice on how you want to respond or react to this. You have a choice on how you want to be. And what, like you said, what this showed me is you're just as bad as the other person in the sense of,

well, I'm holier than now. He cheated on me. It's like, yeah, you also did the same thing. Yeah. So it's really, those in glass houses shall not throw stones. Now shan't we. But I just, I think, I'm glad we got to kind of like debunk a lot of stuff on this because I think so many people are scared, you know, and I get it. Like you've been hurt, you've been cheated. But I was going to see, is there any like kind of last things that you want to leave people off with like, if they're scared or they're nervous and everybody always cheats on me or maybe like you said, like my parent, my dad was cheated, you know, blah, blah, blah.

So cheating is it's such a panic button for most of us because once someone cheats, you know, the sky has fallen, the legs are done. It's such drastic and I get it. you have to investigate. Yeah. What happened. Examine the black box of why the plane went down. Not just,

I'm not even talking about if you want to be in the relationship or not. You can, that's a whole different decision. Just for you. Yeah. What was your taking this? Right. You know?

And I think when you do that, it's like, it's not a monster anymore. Oh, because you humanize yourself and your partner and what happened. Um, if not, then it's this big, it's the asteroid hitting the earth kind of thing.

And it's a shadow cast by your own hand. Well, I like that too because what you're also saying is if you do that, then moving forward, it's not everyone's going to cheat on me and all men are trash. It's like, no, I know that this was circumstantial because we had these issues, not everybody's going to do this. So I think if you don't trust yourself, you don't trust what's going on in your judgment to be able to say, well, I need to take accountability. Then yeah, everybody's going to do this. You're going to just keep repeating the same.

Yeah. So play out what happens when you think everyone's going to do this. Now you are building a moat around your castle. You are now probably going to love from a distance. That stove is going to be hot even though it's not even on. You know, there's all the stuff that's going to happen to you because of that incident. It's going to have power over you forever. Yeah.

And like I think the last question I have for you is let's say there's somebody that has been cheated on. And they're trying to date. And it's like, I see this all the time. Like people, they're clearly not over what happened. What advice do we have for people that are trying to process this? Like maybe dating might not be the best option, like off the bat. Is there something that you have or you've seen that could help people that are struggling? Maybe they're trying to date and they can't.

How can they move through this without it letting them impact their future of dating? I don't want to sound so generic, but you have to, we have to process things. So with a therapist, I mean, whatever, friend, coach, you have to talk about and examine your inner journey so it just doesn't weigh you down. And through the conversations, you have revelations and insight. And it's those things that like rungs of a ladder that keep you moving up. And oh, I realize why. And then it creates distance and you heal. If you just hold on to it and you white knuckle it and you just,

all right, I'm just going to get on apps again. It's still there. Yeah. So processing, processing, processing, talking about it with people who you feel are safe, ultimately a therapist. But if you, you know, don't have access to a therapist, just holding it by yourself in your room and pushing feelings down is not the answer. Totally. Or like talking to your friend that has been cheated on and him,

her saying, men, trash, fuck this. It's like, that ain't going to help you either. That ain't going to help you either. That is only going to keep you perpetuating. Well, it's going to make you bitter. And making you bitter is going to make you feel like you're in lack and there's lack of good men. And that means that you're probably not going to find good men because that's what you believe. So you have to come from more of an abundant state. And that means let's investigate this. What happened in this, you know, incident? And what was my ownership? Yeah. Awesome. John, thank you so much for having me. Of course. Thank you for bestowing your wisdom. Where can people find you? It'll be on the show notes, but in general. Where can you find?

At the Angry Therapist and my podcast is called The Angry Therapist podcast. Yeah. Sweet. Awesome. All right. Well, until next time, y'all.