The Sabrina Zohar Show - 55: Inside the mind of a Narcissist- NPD, gaslighting, types of narcissist, and their cycle of abuse with Dr Jaime Zuckerman!

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by Dr Jaime Zuckerman! We go inside the mind of a Narcissit- NPD, gaslighting, types of narcissist, and their cycle of abuse and SO much more! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Okay, friends, episode two of this week, how do we like two episodes a week? I love it, but I'd love to hear how my squirrel friends are. So DM me, let me know how you feel. If I don't answer, it's not that I'm ignoring you, I just might not see it. But only DM me for this. Don't DM me asking me for advice.

You know, you guys know that if you have a question or want to work with me, you could do so in the link. And as you know this year, I've changed the way I work with people. You can still ask a question. You can still download the free guides. I added a new one. And you can still work with me, but it's not going to just be one-offs. It's going to be packages and programs.

And, of course, you can still book a one-off session with me as an intro. And then there's other ways. So if you guys want to learn anything, find it in the show notes, the link in bio, all of those fun things. But anyways, guys, I digress. I am so excited this week. I have Dr. Jamie Zuckerberg on. I love her. What a fucking gal.

And we talk about all things narcissists. narcissist personality disorder, gaslighting types of narcissism, the cycle of abuse, how do you spot a narcissist, characteristics of them, literally everything. I wanted to understand inside the mind of a narcissist more than I wanted to really understand anything else because this word is thrown around so fucking much that until you actually deal with a narcissist and you're like, oh shit, that's what they mean. Yeah, exactly. So I'm really excited.

And guys, as always, if you need anything, link in show notes. Thank you guys for everything. Thank you for rating the show. Please don't forget to rate the show if you haven't already. Thank you for sending it to your friends and posting on socials. You know, guys, I don't know if TikTok's going to be around much longer, so don't forget to follow Do the Work Podcast on Instagram because TikTok loves to not show my content, you know, all those fun things.

But y'all, without further ado, let's get right on into it. Hi, Jamie. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Oh, well, so for anybody who doesn't know, I've been following you for a minute. I love your teachings. love your practice. I love everything that you've created. And I'm so, so excited to introduce,

do the work audience to you. So could you just start us off with giving us like a little bit of background of you, who you are, what you do, and just specialties that you love to like focus on? Sure. So my name is Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. I have a private practice outside of Philadelphia. I work with adults, depression and anxiety. But my specialty lies in working with people who are either currently or trying to get out of or on the other side of a relationship with somebody who has narcissistic personalities that are anything from friends, romantic partners, colleagues, family members, and helping them navigate this very kind of complex landscape that is ahead of them. I'm really excited to have you on because I think

that's why I even wanted to focus this with you because I was like, I know, I know. that you really work with narcissistic personality disorder and not just a TikToker who's decided to say this word. But I would love, honestly, because that's why, truthfully speaking, that's why I don't do a lot of content on this, because I don't want to misguide people on something that's very clinical. So if we can just start off with like some highbrow understanding of like, what the fuck is actually narcissistic personality disorder? Because I think a lot of people misconstrue avoidant with narcissists and not understanding

one's a personality disorder and once in the attachment style. No, I like that you're kind of highlighting this because I agree with you. I think that many people have their doctorate and TikTok and misinform a lot of the population on narcissistic personality disorder, which is very damaged. Let me say, I'm actually very happy that in the last four or five years that it's become such a hot topic. I think that's great because it draws attention to it. It brings awareness to it, which is necessary.

However, at the same time, it also. comes with a lot of misinformation, people trying to diagnose each other incorrectly, people thinking that it's okay to stay in relationships as long as they're not a narcissist, even if they're a huge asshole. And so it just, it makes it really difficult. So I think it's really helpful to kind of identify exactly what it is. So narcissistic personality disorder is a pervasive style, maladaptive, unhealthy, toxic style of interacting with your entire world around you. It's not like you are just a narcissist with your significant other or you're just a narcissist with your friends or you're just a narcissist when you're anxious. If you have this personality disorder, it is in every domain of

your life, period, end of story. It is not just somebody who is an asshole. It is not just somebody who is abusive and we'll get into that. But it is somebody who is chronically, continuously, extremely toxic and abusive with very little insight, very little empathy. I'll just kind of go down the kind of check general checklist. Obviously, those books, you know, different for people. But generally speaking, somebody with narcissistic personality disorder has very little to know empathy whatsoever for how their behaviors impact those around them. Even if the people around them are crying in pain, they will look at it as not their problem. If you're upset, that's your fault. or I'm entitled to make you feel this way

because you did this, this, and this to me. They have an extreme sense of entitlement, which is why with infidelity in particular, which is very common with a narcissistic relationship with an intimate partner, they feel that they're entitled to do these things, that they don't have to abide by the rules because the rules don't apply with them.

They are unique, they are special, they are different, and they're just above the rules, which is why oftentimes, you know, I tell people, And narcissists may identify that they have these characteristics to somebody that's a narcissist, but they're above a label. I'm not going to put a label on themselves. They are extremely sensitive, like, over-sensitive to even the slightest thing they could perceive,

misperceive as criticism. So something like, I really like that black shirt on you, I think, better than the white one. I mean, we may look at that as a compliment or we may look at something as constructive. You know, maybe you should try this in your next interview. maybe you should try to do this in your next book. With a narcissist, it's immediately looked at as rejection, as this huge just crush blow to their ego, and they will respond with either extreme harsh reactions.

They will rage or they will cut you off, give you the silent treatment, but in some way you will be punished. They have these very grandiose ideas about themselves and their accomplishments. They feel that they are entitled to these high, positions are these, you know, financial or monetary gain without really having to put in much effort. They just should have it. They just deserve it for whatever their reason. They are extremely

manipulative. They will do whatever they need to do to have their needs met. If you are hurt in the process, you are in the way. Right. So I think one of the misconceptions is people sometimes thinks that narcissists will deliberately, and listen, don't get me wrong, they do. But a lot of the times the injuries that other people to stay in emotional, physical, whatever it is, through the narcissist, are because they are in the way of the narcissists getting their needs met, right? So they're kind of collateral damage. Justified, right. So it's more about that. Narcissuses are very big on power and control. They must be in control and feel powerful at all times. And even if they're not physically present, they want to have control of your emotions. They want access to your emotions, access to your

thoughts. They want you thinking about them when they're not present, which is why narcissists are notorious for ruining holidays, special events, birthdays, graduations, promotions, anything that gives you a sense of autonomy that they're not a part of. They will trash and they will ruin because they want you not only to not be in the spotlight, they want the intention on them and they want to be responsible for the change in your emotion. They want to be responsible for that downfall. And the other thing I will say is that as far as who they gravitate towards, there is a very large misconception that narcissists gravitate towards people who are weak, who are, you know, have no opinions, no backbone. That is not true. Narcissists.

oftentimes will gravitate towards people who are extremely successful, have very strong opinions. You know, they want their limelight. They like to have this really confident, attractive, successful person on their arm. It makes them look good. And the other reason is that it's further to knock them down. They get so much supply we hear from taking control and ownership of other people's accomplishments, of taking control of their emotions. So if you're up here, they like that sustainability.

breakdown of you until you feel this big. That's why people always think narcissists go for these weak-minded people because you see them when it got into that point already. Not in the beginning that you see the ship. That's actually, I'm really glad you brought that up because I think I was miss. I thought that was the misconception of like, yeah. Oh, well, of course, because like if you don't have boundaries or if you don't, you know, you allow this behavior, then other must say something about you.

Right. But it's funny, as you were talking, you literally described my. next to a tea, like every single bit. I'm just going through like, I remember when I was crying on the floor, I needed to go to the hospital. And my sister was like, I'll come get you. And I said, no, he's home. I'll just have him take me.

And I'll never forget. I fell to the floor and I was like, oh, my God. And he steps over me and said, get the fuck over it. You're not the only one who's ever been in pain. I have a meeting. Correct. So I'm sorry. And like no empathy.

And then his mother called to yell at me. His mom was mad at me. Yes. And then that grim. Oh, the moms of the narcissist. Ooh, boy. Ooh. And you know what's funny.

My father is one and his mother was overly involved. So it's all coming back. But it's like, but when you describe that, I'm sitting here being like knowing, okay, yes, my ex was textbook. It's not, oh, well, he was just a dick one night. He must be a narcissist. It's like, no, no.

That extremity, and I think for a lot of people listening, like, I'm sure you get this all the time on Instagram. I'll be like, my narc did this. And I'm like, I hate that. I hate that. You have no diagnosis for this person. You could say, hey, they're being a little more avoidance. Sure.

I don't care if you want to say, that there are, you know, because I know, correct me if I'm wrong, narcissists are avoidance, but avoidance are not narcissists. Like, when you say avoidance, you mean as far as not connecting to people? Avoidant attachment style, just obviously, like removing themselves, not wanting to deal with it. So, yeah, so yes and yes and no. Yes and no. The only reason I say that is because with avoidant attachment style, they, there's like an element of. wanting to be close, but they can't, right? Like there's this need or desire, but it's like they're incapable.

Like, it's uncomfortable. It's, it's, they, they avoid the discomfort of it. A narcissist, um, they don't, they don't have attachments to people and they don't want to. Right. Like they don't, they don't, they don't. So, so they will attach themselves to you if you start. serve a distinct purpose for them. Yeah, yeah.

When that purpose is up, you don't exist anymore. Yeah. Until they need you again. It's funny because my ex did an article. And I remember I sent it to my therapist. And I was like the and she even said she's like, it's palpable. You can, you can feel this narcissism. Because you had mentioned that one thing where the like they always want to have.

And he said on there, sometimes I'm in the cab alone coming home from big VIP events. Just wishing I had a beautiful girl next to me to enjoy this and wondering. hmm, when will that happen for me? And I'm like, you cry me a fucking river. Right. You had that with me. You had the arm candy. Correct. But your arm candy came with needs, wants, desires. That's exactly right. And yours wouldn't matter. Exactly. None whatsoever. They never did. Right. Now, I have a question for you because I think what I want to do is like, I really want to focus on understanding them. Like, I don't want to villainize them. I'm not trying to make them out to be the worst people in the world. But I'd be shocked how many people will say,

Listen, I always say this. I'm just describing symptoms. If it sounds that fucking bad, it's because it is that bad. Right. I'm just, I'm not villain. I get this all the time. You know, you're a psychologist. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You're demonizing these people. I'm not. I'm literally describing symptoms and describing experiences that people have. What you do with that, that's on you. I'm just describing symptoms. Right. No different than I would describe depression, depression, anxiety. It's the same with anxious attachment.

I'm like, if you don't like the way, way this sounds, then it's because you're embarrassed of what's... You don't like the behavior. Correct. But so for me, because like I really want people to understand the, like, the real understanding of a narcissist so that they're not going out, they're thinking that they're dating one every time. Yes.

What would be, if you have any, some really glaring flags, like, we're talking, these, a lot of the people are listening are new daters. And of course, the number one thing is, I don't want to get involved. Yeah. What can people look out for in those early stages of dating and like early warning signs? and then like things that people can implement to maybe deter to test. Yep. So in dating, in the dating world, what you will find is this not just deep connection suddenly

because that happens, right? Like that obviously happens. I'm talking like a tidal wave of connection. Like you feel like you have just been swept off your feet in this Disney fairy tale. okay and Disney could be a whole other episode I I 100% blame Disney for everybody screwed up relationships and expectations of relationship okay Disney fucked us you've Disney fucked us royally I could talk about that for hours and in their carton it's so disturbing when you look at it from that perspective I have to

like watch cartoons and explain them to my daughter's like no it is not right that Anna wants to marry the prince right away because they said same word sandwich at the same time right no no no and then he ends up of wanting to kill her. So no. But so, you know, things to look at for. So if you hear, and I'm not even joking when I say this, if you hear the word soulmate, you're my soulmate, in the first six months of dating somebody, run. I know it feels good and I know it makes you feel special and I get it. But there is literally, as wonderful as you may be, there is literally nothing that somebody can learn about you so quickly when they don't even know what medications you're allergic to, what your

favorite color is, like what you're like when you don't sleep and you wake up and you're miserable, they don't know anything about you yet. How the hell are they saying you're their soulmate? I know you're wonderful, but it's, no, there's that. If you find in the beginning of the relationship that you are divulging the most intimate personal details about yourself that you really don't talk to anybody about, and you're sharing this information really early on because the other person just seems to get you so well. You feel so super comfortable with them. That is a red flag.

It's a red flag that they are not organically developing this relationship. They are pushing you to talk about these things. They are making you feel comfortable. They are making you feel vulnerable only for them to take this information, store it away for later use, which they will, and use it against you. If you are talking constantly, They are texting you constantly. I feel like we, you know, I was just watching

Bad Vegan again the other night and I, you know, and he's saying to her in the beginning, you know, we have this language and I feel like I've known you from a past life. Run. Right. Like, just run. If you are seeing them a lot, and I mean a lot, okay?

I know it feels great and I know it feels amazing. And they're taking you on these lavish trips and they're buying you these gifts and they're taking you to gorgeous restaurants. And they're doing all the things that you tell them that you love. And oh my God, can you believe we have these same interests? And I don't just, again, I don't mean you're connecting on this really great level. That's not what I'm talking about.

Right. I'm talking about this like, oh my, like too good to be true type feeling. Yeah. Okay. That is a red flag. The pinch has to match the ouch. Like the amount of time, because you're describing love bombing right now, right? It feels like it just an overwhelming amount.

And the reason why it's so hard to look at it objectively is it feels really fucking good. Like, listen, I do this for a living. I'd still be at risk for it. It just feels good. And here's the thing, what a narcissist is really good at. So let's just say, you and I are experts in love bombing, right? And all of a sudden, you're on a date and they start doing these things. And you're like, oh, it's a little fast.

It's moving too fast to me. If there's a narcissist, they're going to adjust accordingly. So even if you know the signs of love bombing and you catch on and you start to put your walls up, they're very good. They're chameleons. They'll get that you're catching on to them and they'll start to shift a little bit to not be as much. Okay. So here's the, yeah, so here's what you can do early on.

You want to listen to how they talk to waiters and waitresses. You want to see if they're overly friendly and like outgoing and they're tipping extravagant amounts or they're just rude, short, and demeaning and condescending. You want to hear all they talk about their exes or all their exes crazy, right? Are they the victim and everything? If they have children and they don't have custody or they have very little custody, that's a red flag. Oh, that's my dad. Oh, that makes so much sense. My mom at full, he would just say, yeah, I have them once in a blue moon because he's. Yes. Yes. I actually never knew, because I know like a narcissist are hard to get to therapy. I asked my mom. I said, how did you? I said, how did you get him to? I said, how did you get him

And she said in Florida to divorce, you have to go see a therapist to get the divorce. She went and she, I never knew this. I never even told the story. She told me to me the other day. They were together. And my dad looks at the therapist and goes, okay, now you can tell her everything that's wrong with her and let her know why she's fucked up. And so my mom walked out and the therapist grabbed her and said, listen, I'm not allowed to diagnose him.

But boy, oh boy, are you dodging a bullet? I would want to get those paperwork signs. She's lucky she had that because most of the time family court does not support the women. and they don't support coercive abuse. They don't support the abuse you can't see. Yeah. It oftentimes makes the women look crazy. I do have a question because I know there's different types of narcissists or there's

malignant, there's covert. Because this is like such a fucking muddy water to walk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we talk about the difference types or whatever? Yeah, yeah. So you have like the malignant narcissist, which is like they're just arrogant assholes, just, you know, just very full of themselves and everything's this age. and it's just palpable, and it's obvious.

And they're like that to everybody outwardly at all time. Totally. They're where the highway, right? They can be violent. They get nasty. Then there are narcissists who oftentimes will portray themselves as the victim. So it's not as outward. It's more covert.

So it's more kind of like, you know, woe with me. Everything happens to me. Everything happens the worst to me. You don't care about me. no one cares about me and it's very draining and it's like they're so self-absorbed and they're always a victim victim role for everything um you know there's the narcissists that are so charming and outwardly they're like the life of the party everybody loves them behind closed doors they're absolute monsters abusive manipulative um just really horrible horrible

partners. You know, you see this with parents too. I mean, the same kind of thing. So it's like not just with intimate partners. It can also be with parents. The, the, I think the difference is that for the people that are involved with narcissists who are outwardly, they seem like these philanthropic, you know, fun and just lovable people. It's really hard for their partners to really place what's going on because they're the only ones that are going to see that side of this person, really one of the only ones. Children will, maybe some family members. So that plus gaslighting plus manipulating becomes really difficult for those people to see what they're dealing with because maybe it is that. Maybe they're the crazy one because this person's different. They're not

like this with other people. It's just you. So that's where you get a lot of my exes are crazy type stuff, right? That was my ex. The first day, that was my biggest friend. flag all of it. And I remember being like, the poor thing. He's out all these crazy exes. Now I learn. And same with my aunt. She was married to a doctor and he was the talk of the town. Same thing. No one believed her. She would always say nobody believed to this day. Now, I'm curious, can we talk a little bit more about the cycle of the abuse? I know that there is the cycle. There's like the admiration and then the discard. Can we talk a bit more of like, what does that look like? Because I think for a lot of women listening, there is this of what's why I'm a piece of shit and they just got rid of me.

And it's like, no, no, no, this is all part of it. And then I really quickly, another question that came to mind was, is it different men and women or is narcissism? Okay, cool. We'll get to that after. So let's first start with the process. So in an intimate relationship, and this also applies for friendships, this cycle, I'm going to leave parents aside for a second. But in, in like new relationships, right, whatever type of relationship it is, in the beginning, you have loved love. which is what we talked about. This just sucks you in, makes you really comfortable,

makes you feel like you can really connect with this person. And it's just amazing, right? It's a high. You're on this high. And it's very similar, this pattern of narcissistic abuse. The cycle is very similar to addiction. It's an addiction model,

which is why it's really difficult to, quote, just leave. It's like a leaky faucet that you just notice over time. And then before you know it, you're standing in the middle of your house and it's flooded, and you don't know how the hell you got here. It's very subtle. It's a very nuanced face.

So in the beginning, you get that love bombing, right? And it's constant, constant, constant, constant. And then what starts to happen is it starts to shift into this kind of devaluation stage, we call it, where the manipulation starts. Like, oh, you're going out with your friends, but I'm sick to test you to see, Are you going to stay home?

Or things like, you know, I don't know, Jamie. You know, I know she's your best friend, but like really see how you guys are friends. Like you trust her. Like I know you know we're best, but like I don't know. There's something about her or things like, you know, are your parents always doing this, this and this? Like don't you ever get annoyed at that? I feel like they run your life for you.

You should set some boundaries. And so they slowly start to plants in your brain, the seed that the people around you cannot and should not be trusted. And because this person came in and is so good to you, they are the only people that really should be trusted. They have your best interest in mind. They know you better than anybody. It's that me and you against the world bullshit. That's a very dangerous place to be in a relationship. It's deliberate. It's purposeful to get you separate from the people around you. So that two things. One, there's no one to tell about the abuse. Two, there's nobody to balance any ideas.

is off of so you are solely at the mercy of the narcissist gaslighting and then you've become dependent on them to define your reality. You don't know which end is up. And so you ask them which end is up. I've been there. I will never forget my ex sending me a letter saying, I think one of us loves you more than than you love you. And I remember reading it to my mom saying, but look how much he cares about me. And I'll never forget my mom just saying, no, oh no, no, no. Because she knew what he was doing. And sure enough, all of my friends, I started losing my friends. And then it was, but I thought you wanted to be with me. Like, why do you have to go do that? It was becoming slow and slow, but because I was so fucked up and I had, you know, my dad was like that. So I'm going,

yay, this is normal. Like you said, didn't see it until I was standing in a flooded house. I was almost lost, I almost lost myself. Like, that was it. Well, that's what happened. You lose something up. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any, salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. This is the part I think of my job that is probably one of the hardest things for me as a female, as a mother, just all of it.

And I always use the example of my best friend who was divorcing a very, very, now she's divorced, thank God, but was with a very abusive narcissist for a really long time, 20-thum years. And at the end of it, said to me, and it was the most, like, and I've heard this from many women about different things, and men too.

She was like, I don't even know what side of the bed I'm supposed to sleep on. And it's like, oh my God, like, I don't know what food I like because I was told I have to eat this and cook this. I don't know what my favorite music is because I was told, music's like you literally lose your sense of self and that's why leaving so scary because you are

you're a shell of your former self is this a trauma bond yeah so trauma yeah so trauma yeah so trauma yeah so trauma bond is where the person is basically yes dependent on them for so you get this intermittent reinforcement which is why it's an addiction model so you you you are used to this love bombing love bombing love me right but the person in the beginning never existed in the first place and the whole point of the trauma bonding is you get into this intermittent reinforcement where you just want to get it back to where it was, want to get it back to where it was, and you get sucked in, and then, but then they give you a little bit, but then they don't give it fully, and then you depend on them for the reality check, but then they depend on you to get their supply, and it becomes this very

icky bonding thing. You know, a lot of some people think trauma bonding has to do with both people have traumas, and they're coming together on the similarities of their traumas, that's not it. That's just having similar histories, right? Trauma bonding is when you literally become duck to the other person in a very sick, unhealthy way. The narcissism dependent on you for supply. You're dependent on the narcissists to define who the hell you are. Yeah. Which makes total sense.

Yeah. And so you get to that period where they start to throw those things your way, right? And let's say then you decide you're going to go out with your friends. right and then they get pissed at you and they stop calling you yeah right so i always say in the very beginning of relationship if you're questioning whether it's a narcissist break plans with them last minute and see what happens tell them you're sick or tell them you're just too tired and here's a thing a normal healthy-minded person will of course be disappointed if they want to see you there's nothing wrong with that but they're going to say okay no absolutely reschedule when you feel better or let me know if i can do

anything let me know if you need anything a narcissist is going to take that as a personal attack and they're either going to say, oh, that's cool, that's fine, and never call you again for maybe six months, or they're going to call you constantly and not respect your boundaries that you don't feel good, or they're going to flip out on you, or they're just going to show up at your house. Yeah. No, because they don't believe that you're sick, but because they want to let you, it doesn't really matter if you're sick. So it's so funny because that, I'm like, now as you're describing it, like, I remember my dad used to do that to my mom, when they would go through the breakups, he would show up at the house and he would demand.

things and I'd always look and I'm like, who the fuck are you? Narcissistic rage would just explode. And I think that's why when I hear people talk about narcissists now, I'm like, as a child of one and having been married to one, I don't take this shit lightly because it's not just a, oh, he's just a dick. This is, this is legit. It's different. Let me ask you.

So we know that because people ask, well, can they, you know, are they aware of it? Are they doing this out of malice? Can they change it? How the fuck does this happen? First of all, like, how do they be, how do you get this? personality disorder. And yeah, are they aware of it? Like, do they know what they're doing? So there's a couple ways that narcissists comes to be. There's research all different areas. You know, some will say there's, you know, brain differences. And, and listen, there are brain

differences. But does, do their behaviors come because the brain difference was there first? I don't know. I kind of am with the school of thought of they model that, which they see, or their behaviors are a compensatory strategy of something else. So I'll explain. So just because you have a narcissist as a parent does not mean that you're going to be a narcissist. Oftentimes, children of narcissists end up being extremely opposite, very empathetic, like overly empathetic. They can sense feelings. They can smell feelings of other people. They're people pleasers, right? They like walk on eggshells. They don't want anyone to be mad at them because they never knew what they were going to get because that's the model of a narcissistic blueprint, right? You never know what you're going to get.

Right. So there's that. Or what happens is let's say you have a parent that's so stupid. critical of you or you have a parent that's abusive and you develop this exterior shell of I'm not going to let anyone fuck with me ever and if anyone's going to get fucked with it's I'm going to control them by doing you know so it really depends on what strategies is a child you develop number one and number two do those strategies change and shift as your context changes so for example if you need to have this really tough exterior to deal with the abuse you're getting. When you're out of that abusive environment, does that top exterior kind of dissipate or do you keep it there? Because if you keep it there, when you're no longer in a

situation where people are offending you, that's when it starts to hit a wall. That's when personality source starts about because it doesn't jive anymore with your contacts. It's this glaring difference. So that's how narcissistic personality can develop in addition to golden child syndrome. We hear about this a lot. Children that have absolutely zero consequences for their behaviors and their actions. The law does not apply to them. School rules don't apply to them. Parental rules, they are above and beyond.

It is noticeable within the siblings. It is noticeable with the family members. They can do no wrong. Now, there's also a shit ton of expectations put on them that they need to abide by these rules and expectations that have of you to be this way, this way, and this way. And if you don't, I will not love you. So it's very contingent on, you know, this conditional love. And so the perfect example like him, even though he's more of a sociopath,

is Scott Peterson. Remember him he killed his pregnant wife and baby. And they interviewed his mother at the hearing. And she, like, was singing her son's praises. It, like, made the hair on the back of your neck stand up. And it's, like, more than just defending your child. It was, like, a stick level of that. And so kind of like, you know,

You see people growing up that just they get in trouble with the law and there's no consequences because whatever, the parents, whatever they need to do, or they are mean to siblings, but they don't set any consequence. So it's like this constant, I can do no wrong. And then they take that and they run with it. And, you know, and they really genuinely believe the rules don't apply to them. The golden child thing, that definitely resonates because I remember my sister years ago, she's like all these fucking kids, their moms are never telling them.

They're saying they never do anything wrong. And it's true. It's like, I look at my ex and my father. and I'm like, don't, mother is that everything. The kid didn't do anything wrong. The kid is always right. I mean, look at my ex. His mother calling me to yell at me for setting a boundary.

Correct. I'm the wrong one. Correct. So, of course. Listen, narcissistic men are married to their mothers. Plain and simple. There is always, as long as there is a narcissistic mother and a son, you will always, whoever is in that relationship, there's three people in that marriage.

Three people in that relationship, always. Every time. I didn't understand every other day having a phone call, having someone. My mom was said she's like, you're married to two people now. She's like, you have apparently a three. And it's shocking. So my other thing, so let's talk like the differences though male if you're female because I think I get a lot of, I understand the male not narcissist. Like I've dated so many of them.

Like you said that where you go on like I remember one and found out I talked to his ex years later. We're talking like 10 years later and I was like, holy shit, I didn't know you. you dated him. And then when she told me what he did, I was like, no wonder those first couple of dates were mind blowing. We're just, I couldn't even fathom. And it's like, that's the confusion where I'm always like, stop chasing the spark.

Stop chasing that. And it's hard because the sex is always mind blowing. But this is what happens. When they go into that, that, that, that next stage of the cycle, right? They, that's the stuff that starts to kind of dissipate, that you're constantly trying to get back. The problem is the way it was in the beginning, that person never existed.

No. That was on purpose, right? Right. So you're never going to get that, which is always a dangling carrot. And what happens with sex and a narcissist is then sex starts to become this manipulative, manipulative tactic where if you don't have sex with them,

they're going to keep you up all night arguing. If you don't have sex with them, they're not going to talk to you the next day, or they're just going to keep at you and at you until you, quote, give in, which is such a form of sexual abuse. Or in the beginning, the sex is mind blowing. And now they don't give a shit about your needs sexually. Yeah, it's definitely experienced it.

It's all about them, right? It's all about them. Financial abuse, right? They're going to do it on you, don't on, don't you, but then let you know, I'm going to take care of you and slowly start to take away your financial independence to the point where you now have no earning potential or you're the one that makes some of the money, but you don't know where it goes. You don't know where your assets are.

you don't have the account numbers, you don't have the passwords to anything. You are literally unable to leave. Yeah. You have no money. A crazy control. It's funny. I don't know if you watch 90-day fiancé. There is a girl on there with the guy.

And she keeps, even he was like, well, so he told me, like, I have to let him know what food we're going to have today. And I have to confirm with him what I'm going to wear. And she's like, but he gives me great advice. And you can hear the voice note. He's like, okay, so you do this. Sarper. You do this. Okay.

So if they give you this meat, you only. have this, you only have this and it's like, to her, I can understand where she's like, yeah, he loves me. He loves me. It's great advice. Until you have an opinion. Right. Then you're, who are you? God forbid. Why would you? Who are you? And of course, he's Turkish. So already we have a different way of handling things. So it's just a completely different environment. Yes. But now when it comes to like the female narcissist, how is it different? Like, what are the differentiating factors here? So female narcissist in intimate relationships. Oftentimes, there's a lot of, it's more emotional manipulation.

Not saying they're not physically violent, sexually, because they are, they can be, but it's more emotionally abusive, very demeaning, very emotionally controlling. They may come off as like very depressed and very anxious, but it's dramatic in nature. It's like without a basis almost. And it's used to manipulate people around them to feel bad. for them. There's a lot of like using their looks and using sex as a way to control. They oftentimes

will like take money for example and they will just spend without any consideration or concern for anybody's well-being. And they are very

they're very manipulative with again, the feeling aspect of things, the emotional aspect of things, condescending, passive aggressive behavior, like these very hard to pinpoint subtleties, if that makes sense. They definitely have rage episodes for sure. It's not, they don't have that. It's just a lot more of the appearing depressed, nobody loves me and, you know, everything, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Everybody take care of me. If you don't take care of me, you're abandoning me. How could you leave me? So, and then if you look at narcissistic mothers, for example,

different than narcissistic dads. Narcistic dad tend to be, you know, verbally abusive, but they're also totally checked out of the parenting. They're away. They never come home. No one knows where they are. And then when they do come home, everything has to stop and everyone's walking on eggshells until they leave again, whereas narcissistic moms are very, very intertwined, overly intertwined. Their children are accessories like handbags, their extensions of them. And any step towards autonomy is viewed as a personal attack or an abandonment or a rejection. Like, I gave up my life for you and this is how you repay me. I did everything for you and now you're just leaving me, you know, literally any sense of

independence and autonomy is is is not taken well at all it's it's you know that's why kids have when they leave for college when they start dating when they get married when they have their own kids narcissistic mothers in particular have a really difficult time because they feel like instead of looking at it like I raised my child well to be able to spread their wings of the fly and I joke about this with my son in particular I always joke I'm like still just live in my basement you can just go to a local school it's fine you're good you know I'm Obviously kidding, but like, I get it, right? Like the thought of like my son, like,

if he gets married and moves to California, oh my God. But, but you want that for them, right? Like you know that if they don't spread their wings and fly, like you fucked up, right? So I don't want that for them. What a narcissistic mother will actually do is everything she possibly can to keep her son from going nowhere.

Really. That's wild. Like what a dynamic to be able. And she'll sabotage their relationship. It's just really, It's upsetting. For me, the parents is the most upsetting patients that I work with the children of the narcissistic parents.

When they get to that realization of like, shit, like, wait, do they even love me? Yeah. Like, what? It's very upsetting. It's a really upsetting part of my job that I don't like it. I know. And I've had, I've definitely had clients like that will come to me. And it's like the way that they'll talk about their kids.

And I'm like, listen, this is above my pay grade first of all. And it's like, but I'll hear it. And I'm like, okay, there's. There's not a shock that your kids don't want to fucking talk to you. It's like listen to how you're, what is happening in this dynamic. And it's really fucking overbearing. And my sister, she went to some like quack fucking coach years ago. And she comes to me and says, she goes, you know, mom's a narcissist.

And I, this way, I, that with that point, I was like, okay, this I got to hear. But after my father textbook, I mean, fucking text book. Anybody that meets him is like, yeah, there it is. She probably looks like one because she enables. him, but she isn't one. The reason being, because like you said, it's the overbearing. My mom is as much of a mother, but she's not because she wants to prevent. We've all moved on and moved on with her lives and she's happy for us.

She's just, like you, worries about her child because she loves her kids. Right. And like even my mom the other day, I interviewed her asking about my dad and their marriage. I love that. And all she said was, I lost myself. And she's like, I'm still trying to find myself. Yes. And it's just a whole.

So it's like, of course, me growing up watching going, okay, so that's my dad. Oh, that's, I never knew. what the word narcissist was until a few years ago. That's what that is. Then I see my mom, people pleasing, no boundaries. Let's him get away with anything, of course. Breadwinner, my dad's the breadwinner. She didn't have a choice.

Literally, she says, where was I going to go? I had three kids that were under the age of six. What did you want me to do? I had no money. That's why I say when people are like, well, why can't they just leave? And I'm like, it makes me so angry. It takes on average seven times for somebody to actually leave somebody who's an abusive narcissist.

I mean, one, when you try to leave that is the most, that is the highest rate of violence that occurs, particularly towards women. So it's scary. They have no money. They have nowhere to go. They have no social support. It has been manipulated over years. Like they really genuinely feel if they leave this person and this is where the trauma bond is,

they don't exist. They cease to exist. It's so scary. It's just, I went through that. I mean, when my ex broke up with me because my mom's like, you're so strong. You left. I'm like, no, no, no. Let's not, let's not rewrite.

I was like, if you recall, he left me. I didn't leave him. I'm grateful. Don't get me wrong. And he did that to punish me. He said, well, fine. Exactly. He said he was like, you know what? I'm going to teach you a lesson. I'm leaving. And I was like, and then I kicked him out. And it's one of those things that like, yeah, I'm with you. I don't think I would have left had I not. Thank God I did. Thank God that happened. But I think for anybody that's listening, if you've either gone through this, you're coming out, you work with people all the time. What can they do to start like trusting themselves again and get back into dating? Yeah. So I would hold off in the dating for a little while, to be honest. I know it's going to feel lonely and I know it's going to feel really weird and scary being alone. Yeah. But you're not alone. I use this time. I tell people to reconnect with their social support network, not so much the dating. And, you know, first of all, you need to be in therapy.

You have to be. And you have to be in therapy with somebody who understands the nuances of narcissistic personality sort of impact it has on somebody else because you don't therapeutically go about it in the same way that you would with somebody who was in a still very troubling toxic relationship but it's still different than a narcissistic abusive relationship and you handle it therapeutically differently people coming out of a narcissistic abusive relationship have no sense of self They have no self-esteem. They have no income most likely.

They have no earning potential most likely. They have no friends. They have family that's pissed off at them. They have, if they have kids are being dragged through the family court system, they don't know which end is up. They are petrified. They are depressed, sometimes suicidal. They have extreme anxiety.

They're not sleeping. They're not eating. They may not even have a house to go to. So they're in a very delicate situation. My recommendation is, and I tell family members this also who are like, oh my God, my daughter is with such a narcissist or my sons with that. I don't know how to get to them. I don't care how mad you are at whoever it is that's in this relationship.

Still stay there for them as much as you can because they're going to need you at one point. So when you do leave, understand that you may have people that you think are mad at you, but I promise you and they are so worried about you and they are going to be so happy that you're contacting them. You have been trained to think that nobody loves you, except the narcissist, nobody understands you,

nobody's going to believe you, nobody wants you, you're utterly useless. You may feel that way and at the same exact time you need to connect with somebody that you think may possibly be mad at you. Because I promise you,

most likely, they're worried sick about you. Oh, I remember, so true. I remember when I left and calling my friends because nobody even knew like that what we had done And just them all living being like, we were waiting for this.

And just thinking everybody hated me and I was a shell of a human. And for me, what was huge for me, went right into therapy. First thing, tapping. Tapping was big for me personally because I had, all I kept saying, I'm such a piece of shit. I caused all this. Everything's my fault. Of course, duh. And after going, I remember just she kept saying, she was like, fine, say it.

And I kept, I'm such a piece of shit. And we kept going and she would repeat it. And I finally stopped. And I remember the first time I did it, I said, well, it can't all be my fault. to like. Right. You become objective to it. Exactly. And just and she even stopped and she was like, that's like this was the work that we got. And it took me fucking years. It took me a full eight months. Like you said to not date. I didn't date for about eight months of intensive therapy. I couldn't. And I think for anybody that's listening to this, whatever part of your journey you're on,

I hope that you can learn. One, some things to look out for. And two, the last thing actually I wanted to talk about was number two here. Crop or understanding of the verbiage. Because I get it every day. I don't get it. What is it like? Is it love bombing or are they just into me? Or what's gaslighting? How do I know? For me, love bombing.

I'm like, pinch mass to match the ouch. If I just met somebody, them saying, hey, I had a really great time with you. I really like you. Okay, that's just somebody showing you interest. Totally normal.

Yep. Totally normal. But if I have somebody that wants to take me on a vacation or is calling me every single day, all of a sudden I'm their soulmate or I'm the love of their life or that and the girl that they've been waiting for. Yes.

Or it's just when it comes in, like you said, I know you're amazing. You know you're amazing. But now, gaslighting, can we talk a little bit more about that before we round this out? Because I think it's a confusion of the tactics that narcissists use. And is gaslighting, I know love bombing is not just narcissists who do this, people that are insecure. But what about gas?

So interestingly, with love bombing, I'll say this too. It's not even just people that insecure. People with attention deficit disorder, right? Oftentimes in the beginning, we'll look with love bombing because there's no filter, right? They're just like kind of, it's that, right? And then they get bored and then it's stuff. And it may look like this, but it's actually not, right? So I like to throw it in there too.

But yeah, people love them all the time. They want to put their best foot forward. And sometimes it's extreme because they don't know. Or maybe they don't have social braces or social etiquette. Who knows? But love bombing alone is one thing. Love bombing in conjunction with devaluation and discarding and hoovering and gaslighting and all this. There's a very distinct blueprint for Narrowman.

narcissistic abuse. It's like you said, text, when you hear it and you know it, it's like, oh, my God, I cannot tell you how many people will say. And it's not because I'm so smart and I'm nailing this. It's just there's a distinct blueprint. And people are like, oh, my God, you're describing my life. Yeah. And it's not just like, oh, I think, are they a narcissist because blah, blah, when you hear

it and you know, it's like, oh, my God, like, wait, what? And when you have that moment of, wait a minute, wait, what? Once you see that blueprint, here's the one thing I will say, I love treating people in this. Once you see that blueprint, you can't ever unsee it. Nope. You cannot unsee it and you will see it every goddamn time. You won't unsee it. So, yeah, so gas lighting.

So gas lighting is different than lying. Okay. So for example, if you say to me, if we were supposed to go out and I told you I didn't feel good. Okay. And then you heard that I was out with other friends and you call and you're like, Jamie. like I thought you were sick and I like well no I wasn't out last night and you're like I know you were out last night. I'm like oh shit all right like that's lying I'm not trying to change your reality right even if I said I wasn't out no I wasn't no I wasn't no I wasn't that's still not

gaslighting because I'm just denying it I'm not trying to warp your perception of the world gas lighting would be if you said Jamie you were out last night like why didn't you just tell me And I said, I wasn't out last night. And you say, okay, but so and so took a picture of you. There you are. That's not me. That hell's wrong with you. Like, why are you even having your friends send pictures?

Why are you going through? Like, why are you going through my phone? Or why did you even call somebody? Like, what's wrong with you? You're crazy. You have trust issues. You know, I have trust issues? Because of your dad.

That's gas lighting. That's so different. That's why they asked you in the beginning about these little vulnerable things. They can store it away. Like, oh, I know Jamie has daddy issues. So I'm going to say, like, this is your dad. I'm not your dad, right?

Yeah. So it's like more than lying. It's literally trying to change your perception. And here's the thing, because it's so that shit crazy, because it's so like next level twisted, majority of people are good people. And so when they hear this, they're like, wait, wait, they can't be like, like, maybe it's not them, really? Maybe that isn't, maybe my friend was wrong.

Maybe it just looks like them. People look like people all the time. Maybe it's the lighting. because it's so ridiculous what they're doing that it can't possibly be that. And when it's constant and you have no one around you to come and be like,

all right, listen, they just showed me a picture and blah, blah, blah. And my friend saying, Jamie, he's lying to you. So I don't have that wall to bounce it off of. Okay. Gaslighting is,

my brother did that to me the other day. We were talking, and he just said, he was like, that's not what happened. And I said, really, then what day, he's like, here we go again. You're making a big issue. You're always,

dramatic. Here we go. You haven't done it. And I looked at him and I was like, that's you. I said, there you are. You're trying to manipulate my reality. And I was like, I know what happened. I have the proof. I'm with my partner who was there for it. I'm done. And then of course, it started with the victim. Will. And I was like, no, no, no. That's learned behavior. And I'm like, and I can understand. But it's so important to really stop in yourself to be like, no, I know my reality. And that can be so fucking hard. It's so scary and it's so hard. So hard. And that's why, like you said, the support system, being able to talk to your support system, go to somebody and say, hey, so this happened, whoa, whoa, that's not great.

Then to have another perspective, oh, Jamie, thank you so much. And it's purposeful. I mean, that's why they do that, so that you don't have anyone to go to. And that's what you have to. They know what they're doing. Yes, they do. They know what they're doing. They become the center of your universe. And then that way you have only them. But I'm so, thank you so much for, like, bestowing so much wisdom. It's such a muddy topic that I wanted somebody that works with people in and out dealing with this. So if anybody wants to find you, work with you, where can they find you? I'm on Instagram, Dr. Z psychologist.

I push a ton of stuff about narcissism, strategies to deal with it, ways that you know you'll be okay. And, yeah, Instagram and TikTok, same handle. My website's Dr. Jamie Zuckerman.com. Cool. And everything will be in the link in bio. So worse comes to worse. So they can't find you. They'll be in the show notes.

not link in bio, link in show notes. But regardless, I'm so glad. Thank you so much for being part of the community. And thank you for sharing this. Now, this was awesome. Anytime. Thank you so much.