The Sabrina Zohar Show - 64: Avoidant attachment, how it shows up in dating and understanding why Avoidants retreat with Ken Reid!

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by therapist Ken Reid to talk about avoidant attachment, how it shows up in dating ,understanding why Avoidants retreat and how their triggers manifest in relationships! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Yay, bonus episode time. I love the bonus episodes because they're just, yay, we get another one in the month. I mean, who doesn't love that? And this month we are joined by Ken Reed. He is one of my favorite therapist. I love him.

He's a content creator. And honestly, he talks a lot about the avoidant. And that's what I wanted to talk about today was understanding what is it actually mean to be avoidant. What are the differences between somebody avoidant and versus just somebody who's being in a asshole? Is it your place to talk about this avoidance with them? How can we start to identify that? How long do you give this person space? Like all things avoidant is what we're talking about. And this high value woman versus man versus high value nonsense stuff that we hear so much about. Now, I know if you're saying Sabrina it's nonsense, listen to the episode and then you'll see what I mean.

So I'm just really excited about this one today. I love doing a bonus episode. And guys, if you want more, the bonus content's coming out. So that's going to be out, oh, so soon in the next week. And you'll get more. You'll get two episodes extra a month and add free. And so guys, please just look out for that. Everything you ever need is going to be in the show notes. If you want to work with me, ask me a question, dating up audits, free guides, whatever you need. It's in the show notes where it says work with Sabrina. And guys, please, please, do not forget to rate the show, rate the podcast, review the show. It means the world. It's how I grow. It's truly the only way I can. It takes all 10 seconds on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Google, anywhere podcasts are found. Just please show Mama some love. And don't forget to

show our sponsors some love because they are the reason that this podcast is free if you choose not to go for the ad free. So without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it, shall we? Hi, Ken. I am so excited to have you. Welcome to Do the Work podcast. Thank you. It's been very interesting watching you on social media, spouting phenomenal advice and wisdom with regards to dating. And I cheekily was like, I wonder if I'll ever get an opportunity to be on this podcast. So it's very exciting, especially considering the guests you've had on. So I'm very happy to be here. I'm excited to have you. And I think I love your content. I've been watching it for a while.

And I love how you break things down succinctly and calmly. And it's like there's not, there's not a bite or a tone. It's very direct. And like, I appreciate the way that you deliver content. And so I'm excited today to have you on to talk about a very hot top. topic of the avoidant. But before we dive right on into everything, can you share a little bit about yourself for our audience who might not know who you are? Sure. So I am a counselor based in Sydney, Australia, who does work with clients all over the world. And my focus at the moment is helping people to overcome relational grief, helping people work on their attachment styles, helping individuals overcome complex post-traumatic stress disorder, helping individuals to become more secure in themselves,

overcome midlife, quarter-life crises. And with my content, it's very specific at the moment in that I mostly talk about helping people to understand avoidant attachment, what the spectrum of that is like. I mostly fixate and talk about severe avoidant attachment, the signs, the behavior, the trends, the patterns that we see in dating in relationships

to help people better understand it. And also respect the wide variety of emotions that come up across a person's journey when navigating a situation, or relationship with an avoidant partner. Because, I mean, as we know, it's the realm of psychology. Human behavior is anything but simple. And it's one of those things where this is a topic which is very complex, yet we love to oversimplify it.

And that's why I'm all about trying to help people to better understand this. I have so many questions for you. Because I used to be her as the person that, You know, I think less about naming everybody as an avoidant. Like that was more so in the last couple of years, I'd say, that where it became, if like really prevalent of like my narcissist, my avoidant. And it's just interesting because I was talking to another therapist, like neuroscience therapist. And she was saying she was like, honestly, I don't really talk.

She's like, I won't take clients like that. But she was like because oftentimes when there's so much into the like, my this, my that, it's like, but where's the accountability? Where is the ownership? Like, yes, you have experiences. we've all, we've dated. But like when I get the comments of like, I'll never date another avoidant again,

it's like, cool, you're not really learning and growing from your experiences then at that point. You're just saying, well, I'm just going to write off this entire group of people because I don't understand it enough to really get into the nitty gritty. So today, we're going to lift the veil because I personally think that the avoidant has had such a bad rap. Like even Amir Levine, the author of Attached,

has openly said, I was way too harsh on them. Like, I did not study them enough to be able to give them a fair opportunity and there's that misconception of like, well, the anxious person at least I express myself. And it's like, no, bitch, no, you don't. You don't always express yourself clearly and succinctly. And so I really wanted to, we can already see how this episode's going to go. Can we start with what is an avoidant? Like, what is an avoidant? What are the root causes? Like, let's just start high brow on that. Okay. So let's do it really simple. I think we've all heard of attachment styles. And for those that haven't, let's go through the very beginning. So,

So once upon a time, attachment theory came out from some tests that scientists were doing to establish the relationship between babies to their caregivers. Kids who, you know, were more anxious at the departure of a parent were labelled people with an anxious attachment. Those that seemingly were cool and didn't really give much of a damn about what happened, avoidantly attached. And then finally, we had a mix in between where people were more, you know, still bothered, but not to the point where it was causing them grief, the securely attached. Now let's translate that to romantic relationships.

We know that there are actually not three, but four attachment styles. There's secure avoidance, well, I should say fearful avoidant or disorganized, dismissive avoidance and preoccupied anxious or just anxiously attached. And when we talk about an avoidant attacher, we're talking about someone, whether you're fearful or dismissive avoidant,

someone who has a conscious fear of intimacy and commitment and a subconscious fear of abandonment and rejection. So what this looks like, because I want to be very clear about this, is an individual who may actually say they want a relationship, they want love, but when they get close to another person, we're talking emotionally deep with another person, or even if it's like a great night of being physically intimate, you could have just had a night where you've had like a great date and you haven't done anything physical. There's something inside that person, it just sets them off. It triggers them.

It causes them humongous anxiety. And the way I often describe this to people is that it's like having a very quiet, internalized panic attack where the anxious attacher might worry about when am I going to get that next text. When am I going to hear from this person? Was I too much? was I, you know, too needy with this person, I'm never going to hear of them again. The avoidant attacher is going through their own separate anxiety.

They're often worrying about a whole myriad of things being like, oh my God, I don't think I can meet this person's emotional needs. I don't think that I'm going to be good enough for this person that if we date in the future, it's all going to go to shit and it's just not going to work out. This person's probably going to want to have children. I don't know if I'm ready to have children. And I should also make an asterisk here and say, the conversation of kids in marriage may never have actually come up between the two of you,

but for them, their anxiety has gone through the roof, and they're internalizing a lot of stuff, catastrophizing about a future that hasn't even happened. And the real horror for the avoidant attacher is that two things can be true. They can simultaneously love you and be shit scared of actually getting closer and committing to being in a relationship with you. And I'm sure we'll get into this. And there's lots of people who might say, oh, but hang on, if that's the case, why is it

they can seemingly get into committed relationships? Marry people and also have, you know, committed seeming relationships where they have kids. My answer is that is not the definition of commitment and intimacy. Because if they're getting with someone who they're committing with, but they don't have those same triggers where they have to be vulnerable, deep, lay down their armour, then they can be in a committed relationship. And we often find that they're in relationships or situations with people

where they'll go the distance with individuals who are as emotionally unavailable as they are, meaning that there's a lot of emotional distance. So usually we see two avoidantly attached people get together and that can cause a whole myriad of things. We can see avoidant attaches getting with highly, very severely, anxiously attached people and that forms a disaster of codependency

for both people, even though on the surface everything may look hunky, Dory and fine. And then we find that they have these short, fleeting experiences with people who are more, I don't want to say like they're all secure, but they're at least more, their self-esteem is perceived to be greater than the avoidant attacher, and it starts to cause a lot of that fear of intimacy for the avoidant, which causes this. Now, people might be wondering, well, why is it that they're sticking it out with these seemingly not-so-healthy dysfunctional relationships?

tips. I like to think of this, and this is something that my own therapist is to sit, because I think it's a really gentle way of describing it. I think attachment style is more of an adaption. I think that, you know, rather than being like, well, it's a diagnosis, which it is not, it's far better to look at this as like an adaption to maladaptive childhood environments. So for the avoidant attaches, we often find that they come from one of two extremes. Lots of emotional neglect, having very emotionally unavailable parents, or emotional incest, which means they've had overbearing caregivers where one of the parents has tried to force a relationship onto the child where that might sound like the mother or the father of the child is trying to have

an adult relationship with a child. It doesn't mean like physical incest. It means that they're trying to treat their kid like another partner, like a therapist. They're emotionally dumping and being like, oh, you know, my wife is terrible, but you're such a good girl to me. I love being with you or the mother who's like, you know, you're my special boy, you can't do anything wrong by me. And then that causes its own whole set of things too, which I won't go into too much detail now. But really, for a lot of these individuals, you know, they can be highly rational, fun, incredibly great to be around, evanescent, charming, charismatic, but often we find they don't. don't have the emotional resilience that say more of the anxious attaches might. I mean,

that's also something for conversation. But I often find that the avoidant attaches tend to be far more rational thinkers. They're not as big into their emotional stuff. They tend to suppress and not want to take a deep dive into their own emotional stuff because it hurts. It's very painful for them to go through that. And much of the time, they are suppressing years, decades of emotional stuff. And it's their way of coping through life. and much of the time we often find that these individuals are walking wounded, but on paper they can look absolutely put together. They're incredibly attractive individuals.

And I think they get a bad rap for a lot of reasons because, you know, on one hand, why are they going into dating apps if they're afraid of commitment? Well, I often say it's like the diver who is bit by a shark. Of course they're going back to diving because they want to learn to overcome their trauma, whether it's, you know, a conscious thought or not. So that is my little TED talk on the avoidantly attached person. which I thank you. I appreciate that because I think, you know, when we were, as you were talking, there was some things that you said so beautifully. And like, one, avoidance is a spectrum. Same with anxious

attachment. Same with any of these attachments. There is a spectrum. You could be so wildly avoidant that you can't even like literally say a sentence and you shut down when anybody even says anything. Or you could be like my partner that, yeah, it's uncomfortable, but he pushes through because he's like, all right, I know I need to do this. But like, it feels same with me. Like my anxiety could flare and I'm like, Zohar get a grip. But like, like, For other people, it's that. And I think to me, like, I'm excited because I want to talk about some myths. For me, I think the common misconception that I see when it comes to the anxious and avoided

is that there's this, oh, well, the avoided or the anxious, at least I'm expressing myself, right? At least I'm saying it, that person shuts down. They don't care. They don't feel. All of a sudden, we've created this narrative for them. So because somebody goes inward and feels overwhelmed, guess what? as an anxious person, I also do that. Sometimes I'm a human and I can't handle it and my body's like, hey, shut down. This is too much for her. And I'll completely retreat, not because I don't feel. And I think that was one of the biggest misconceptions was like, oh, the avoidant doesn't feel. It's like, oh, ho, whoa, whoa.

Avoidance are incredibly anxious. And guess what, to all of my anxious folks, you're also incredibly avoidant because you're so focused on the other person and what are they doing and what are, but we're not stopping to say, well, it's coming up for me. So we are being avoidant in our own ways, which is where I'll go back to saying there's no good or bad. There's no right or wrong. There's no one's better, ones worse. And that's where this like villainizing of, well, I'll never date another avoidant. It's like maybe instead of looking at that way, because what I hear from that is I don't feel equipped. I don't feel like I have the tools I need in order to handle this. I'm not saying to date somebody that is blatantly treating you like shit. But we can also look and say, well, maybe if I can hold compassion for other people, I'll be able to hold some space for myself and understand that. people operate differently, especially with the texting. But I wanted to see with you, really, how can we start to differentiate between like avoidant and like just blatantly bullshit behavior or like avoidant and narcissist? That was a question that people asked a lot. And I know you've talked about this. What are some, what are some major? I know for me one thing that I heard that like changed it was intent really changes the game. But I would love to hear from you like what are some differences

that we can look at between like, hey, that person might be avoidant. but that person's also just a fucking asshole. Or, hey, that's somebody who's avoidant, like, maybe we can work on this. You know what I mean? It's such a great question because this really gets into the meat and potatoes, the spectrum of people with this attachment style. And that's why I love using categorizations like severe versus mild,

because I think that's where it gets really helpful. So maybe let's even do with some examples. Let's go right to the deep end, shall we, in terms of describing someone who might actually be a narcissist with avoiding attachment. So we're talking the don't. Draper. We're talking the person who may look wildly successful on paper. They have everything put together. They're very aloof. They're very charismatic. They can be incredibly fun to go. So we're looking at like the Don Draperer of people who are very avoidantly attached and also narcissistic. So we're

talking about people who are cavalier, aloof, charming, people who have like a great, you know, external look to them. And individuals who really have a, a, very negative view of themselves and others and also a very exploitative, manipulative, gas-slidy, and it's chronic. And you're also dealing with the hot and cold dynamic of someone who is avoidantly attached as well too. So we're talking about someone who has, say, you know, taking you out for this amazing honeymoon period, but then you get too close and you don't hear from them for a while. And they might use work, but they'll do it in such a way where they make it seem like you're too much and too needy for asking why they're too busy and they're throwing it back

onto you constantly if you get into a deeper relationship with them they might find that you know they need to use cheating as a de-activation strategy and they'll do it in such a way where they'll excuse it and go well you know i just don't think that you were meeting my needs and i decided that it was best for the relationship to do this they'll have ways of craftily explaining their behavior without wanting take any ownership or accountability for themselves. Now that's like on the severe end of the spectrum. And we're also throwing in other things like maybe even financial control, you know, also maybe even suggesting that you need to go speak to a therapist because you're clearly too emotional around this. Like that's really exploitative stuff that is in like highly avoidant and narcissistic

sort of land right there. But then when we shift the spectrum to something a bit more mild, what we might be looking at is say an individual who clearly has great affection for you, but when they get too close, it's like that invisible line just got crossed, and then they back away for weeks, months. They abruptly break up a situation, of a relationship with you. They say things like, I just don't know if I'm ready for a relationship.

I just think that I'm, you know, not in the right headspace. I'm in a dark place right now. Oh, you know, if I'm feeling this way, maybe we're not going to be together. I just don't know if you're my type. I just think that maybe, you know, I'm not in the right headspace for this right now, the usual wines. And that is someone who, you know, on one hand we can say, no, you two got close together. You two definitely got close. But this person has just hit their threshold. And often we find these individuals, they'll give you everything in the beginning. They'll often, you know, I think we call it

love bombing for these individuals in the sense that they can often be incredibly curious, incredibly loving, incredibly full on, and it's genuine. They're not trying to fuck you around. They're not trying to muck your entire experience of dating around. They really mean every word of it. But what they're not often expressing is that simultaneous fear of where all this is going. For an avoidant attacher to be in a committed relationship is a hard thing. Like when it's with a person where they've got to get vulnerable and close, because that's an important component to this too, it can feel like forever. It can feel like my life. life is now coming to a close.

And for them, you were saying before, which I really appreciate, was how there's this myth that avoidant attaches don't have any emotions. I'd argue that the most hypersensitive individuals that are out there, because, again, they haven't built up that emotional resilience, and they're actually very sensitive souls who are capable of doing great emotional damage to people. You know, two things can be true with these folks. And I don't, and here's the thing, for the average avoidant attach are mild or severe, they are not trying to hurt, play, manipulate, gaslight you.

Much of this behavior is defensive. If you see them gaslighting you, if you see them, you know, doing this kind of behavior, often it's defensive. Whereas the more narcissistic people, it's a pattern where it's been very prolonged, often very exploitative, and you see it in other areas of their lives. It's not just exclusively you. And so I think that a lot of the times that real hot and cold feels like a bait and switch, they get deemed as players, narcissists, they seemingly don't care.

And you better believe in those moments, like when they shut down, they don't care a lot of the time about you because they're focusing so much about themselves. So that's very much like what I call like the severe not so narcissistic range. And then probably what you're describing with, you know, your partner, it's more mild, where it's kind of like they're discomforted by, you know, dealing with the emotions of others. They may find commitment hard because, again, it brings up their own triggers, but they can work through it. They're like, oh yeah, shit,

I actually know that I'm doing that thing where I get anxious about something that I don't need to worry about and I can work through this. I think the thing is, is that in this world of ours, particularly in heterosexual dating, I mean, I'd actually say

an LGBT dating as a representative of that, you know, like there's a lot of people with insecure attachment. We can't avoid it. I know everyone loves to be like, well, we have to avoid the avoidance. That is a strategy that's going to set you up for failure. You will never learn anything

and you're actually missing out on some great individuals who could actually work through this. 100%. I think if you're just going to, listen, you want to avoid a narcissist? Yeah, if you actually understand what that looks like, please do 100%.

But I think, you know, it was like, somebody had asked like, why do the avoidance jump into a new relationship? Like, do they not feel? And it's like, okay, let me break this down in a really succinct way. Emotions are fucking terrifying for these people and they feel really scary. So when something ends, get right into something new. because oftentimes a lot of the times with avoidance, they'll even look at it as like, well, it wasn't me.

Or it wasn't, it was she said something that I didn't really feel comfortable with. Oh, it's because I didn't find the right person, right? Without understanding. And it's the same with like an anxious person of like, well, this person triggered me. And it's like, well, yes, triggers aren't a bad thing. It's what we do with the trigger. I'm triggered all the fucking time. I love my partner, but I'm a human.

And like even sometimes like I saw when it really became clear to me, as he was being a bit of a dick and like a couple of months ago. And I remember just like, you know, you're kind of like, a day goes by. And you're like, maybe, listen, we're humans, right? We're allowed to have a bad mood. And it progressed. It was like three or four days. And I finally just like, was just like, yeah, what the fuck is your deal, man?

I was like, where is this attitude coming from? And I just looked over and I didn't see it at first. And his eyes were welled up with water. And he just lost it. And he was like, I'm fucking struggling. I didn't know how to talk to you about this. And it was something that had nothing to do. It was his sister's death.

And that was her anniversary. And he was just struggling through that and processing. And he was like, I've never really felt safe to express myself. and I'm learning that with you. It is safe. And he was like, and it's not that, look you. It was like, okay, wow, you regressed. You went right back into that moment. You're a human. I sometimes I'll cry like I'm a six-year-old because that's where my body feels like it is in that moment. And I really, the reason I wanted us to talk about this is because if we can have compassion for other people, we can have compassion for ourselves. I'm not saying go out there and start dating every avoidant.

That's not the point. But my point is, is if you're dating somebody and you see, hey, when I bring up topics, you shut down. Then maybe it just could be, hey, I notice that that caused a little bit of discomfort. Is there anything that you wanted to share? If not, like, we could talk about this in other times that makes you feel a little bit better. Or what can I do to make you feel more comfortable? Because if someone says, I need a little space, okay, no worries. How much space do you need?

A day? You want to talk about this tomorrow and take a minute? I think that works. That is working with somebody. The same with if I commission, my partner will come in and be like, hey, okay, this might not be what I want to handle right now. but I see that you need me. What can I do to show up for you? Even though I myself am dealing with a bunch of issues. Okay, you need that reassurance. It's the same, same, but different. But then where it starts to get into ridiculousness is like, how many avoidance I've dated? Where they'll be like, I need some space.

And three weeks go by and you're like, oh, you just use that as an excuse to end things. Got it. Okay, you just got overwhelmed, understood. But even then, I didn't take it personally about me. I was like, hey, that's your thing. Like, it's not that you don't see my worth. What do you mean you don't see my fucking worth. Like you just don't want to date me. That doesn't mean you didn't see my worth. That just means that you don't want a relationship in the same way that I do. And so for me, I really wanted to kind of talk to you about how do you support somebody who is going through who is a bit more avoided? Like what are what is it in a way, especially when we're talking about dating? What is acceptable of like, okay, this could be, you know, hey, we can handle this.

We can work with this kind of avoidant. And then where do we draw the line of like, this is just blatantly like not working for me and I can't, how long can I sit by and let you just deal with this bullshit? I think if I had to give a really oversimplistic example is when that breakdown of communication occurs and the avoidant partner is making all the decisions without explaining what's going on to the other partner indefinitely or making very abrupt decisions. Let's use your example that you gave before about more of like a severe avoidant attacher who's just like, I need space and declares that for themselves without having boundaries and parameters around that. That's destructive.

And when they do that, that's, you know, for them, that is their ticket out of a relationship and they know what they're doing. In those instances, I'm going to call it out. They know exactly what they are doing because for them, they're looking for safety and they are looking to try and make themselves feel better with the amount of anxiety they have because they can't handle it. And I get it. Like, in those instances, they may often lie and, you know, say things like, oh, you know, I've just been busy or I'm in a dark place. Hey, the dark place probably is true. but they might be using work as an excuse not to actually have the difficult conversation because they don't have the skill set for it. So I think if you're dealing with a partner

who can't articulate and express their triggers and their emotions and why they're doing the things that they're doing, they're making unilateral decisions on behalf of the relationship. Like, we need to end this. Like the really scary example, and I'm sure you've heard of this too, like the Boomerang avoidant attaches, the fearful avoidance, where it's like, you're in a cycle, then they decide to leave. They come back to you after a month. they leave again, they come back to you and on and on and on it goes. That is torture, frankly, for both people, because the person on the receiving end feels completely and utterly helpless,

and it becomes incredibly addictive because they can't feel like they can get a grip as to how to navigate the situation. And for the avoid and attacher, they're going through their own hell, because on one hand they're like, well, I know I like this person, but why the hell can't I even stick around with this person? But because they get so overwhelmed by those big emotions, it becomes really problematic for them. I think when it becomes more of a situation of like, okay, well, how do we work with the avoidant

attaches who can actually make this work? I'd say that even what you're describing with your partner, you know, which is amazing, is when they actually have, you know, they can be called out, there's a level of humility to themselves where they're like, yeah, I can see that I'm doing that thing. I can see that I'm behaving in a way, which is stopping us from connecting together and actually getting close and I'm going to apologize for that. And it's not something that we see every day and it should be praised because for these individuals to be able to do that, I've got to be honest. I know a lot of people be like, oh, well, you know, it seems so easy for the avoidant attaches.

Oh my God, no. Like I'd argue it's bloody hard for avoiding attaches to be able to do this work because they have to make the willingness to do this. And it's very hard for them to, you know, unlearn that adaptive style. So I think you know you're working with a team. player when they start involving you in their defense mechanisms and also are able to sustain that continued momentum to greater intimacy and commitment. And here's a reality too. Like, I love all that. And like, I think people can be how do I see this in the beginning?

How do I see this? And I was like, guys, maybe we need to stop playing detective. And maybe we need to start understanding like, hey, remember that whole anxious or avoidant things too? Because like, then I get, you know, well, why don't understand why won't they work on themselves? If they know it, why aren't they do? It's like, are you doing them? Because you identify that this person's maybe not out.

But yet here you are trying to get them to change without saying, hey, well, hey, yeah, like I said, avoidance to the spectrum. For some people, like, if somebody is just going to be like, hey, I need to remove myself, maybe for the first few weeks, I'll be like, all right, I'll give you the benefit for the death. Then after a while, you're like, hey, are we going to do this or not? But I think the reality is, is like, how are you going to get to know anybody over time? It's like, sure, I'd love to know the glaringly obvious. Like, I think we know it's like if somebody's just unwilling to talk

about emotions and feelings for you. They completely shut down. They remove themselves. They're disrespectful. It's like then I think those are pretty fucking obvious. But the reason I don't want to get too heavy into like, hey, look out for this to make sure they're not avoidant is because it's like, one, that can change. Because imagine if the roles were reverse and there was a bunch of guys out there, you know, if this were talking just male and female, but just people. There's a lot of women that are fucking avoidant too.

It doesn't matter. There's a lot of men that are anxious. It's six of one. But imagine if another group was like, how to a. avoid the anxious. This person's going to want that constant reassurance. Could you imagine we'd be like, wow, so we're the bad guy? So because I'm insecure, but yet it's okay when the avoidant does it. Then we have to villainize and put them down. And instead we just have to look at it as, okay, this person shuts down because they're terrified. They have fear. I'm shutting down because I'm scared.

Because here's a reality. The anxious attach are saying, well, at least I express myself, but you're not, though. You're giving projections and bullshit. You don't do this. I'm sorry. If we, I'm sorry, I, I love love is blind, and Chelsea and Love is the perfect example. Well, you never say I love you and you never do this. And it's like, whoa, whoa, now we're, that's not expressing yourself because that's not factual. None of that is coming. So just because somebody can't, it shuts down, you're doing that in another way. You're shutting down and you're not expressing yourself clearly and succinctly because you're also

disregulated. So just because you keep seeing the thing, but why won't you contact me? Why won't they text me? But that's not what this is about. And I had somebody actually right into the question box about eight why questions. And I was like, wow, here we go again. You're so hyper focused on why they're doing behavior, but yet you haven't stopped to reframe that and change why to I don't like. I don't like that they're hot and cold.

Great. What don't you like about it? I don't feel like a priority. I feel right now we're getting to something versus why is he being hot and cold. So if I came to you and told you, well, when he was a child, this happened, this. If I explained it, but is that still going to make you feel better? because like a child, you go, but why? But why? But why? And it's like because that's not the, that's not the question to answer. What we need to start understanding is, if somebody acts in a way

that is doesn't work for you and you have communicated that and they still act in that way, I don't need to create a narrative. What I do create is, this is no longer for me. That's it. I make a definitive decision of this doesn't work for me anymore and it's time for me to remove myself versus let me try to psychoanalyze them because suddenly that's going to make me feel better. You know, it's interesting that you say this because I think there, a level of psychoeducation on this is relevant to help people understand why this is happening. But that's where I see people get into a rumination cycle and a circle jerk where it's like, well, the avoidance always do this.

And it's like, hold up a minute. You are not helping anyone's situation here. And I've often gone on rants being like, listen, I know how frustrating this behavior is to be on the receiving end of it. But we can also be equally dysfunctional in our own ways. and at worst, frankly, we're not actually taking accountability for it too. You know, I think that there is actually value. I know this is going to cause people to write when I'm about to say this,

but there is actually value in getting your heart broken over and over again by avoidance because guess what? You then learn you have a type and you actually need to do something about it because you're not going to learn anything if you constantly think, well, they're the ones that need to constantly change. They're the ones that need to do all this stuff. Yeah, that may be true, but what are you doing to help yourself through this sort of stuff. Frankly, I can speak for myself and say, look, as someone who's exiting

team anxious attachment in an attempt to become more secure, there are so many things that I've avoided about myself, least of which is communication skills, amongst many other things. Like, I think that for many of us, anxious attaches, frankly, our biggest challenge is actually giving ourselves some form of selfish love that we haven't been actually giving ourselves for a while. We tend to over give. We tend to dwell in the realm of codependency far too much. We're putting our lives on the backburner. Some of us may actually be very independent, put together and actually have great communication

skills. But where we fall short is we're still replaying those old patterns from childhood where we're wanting to be chosen. We're wanting to have a family we never had. We're trying to have, you know, a greatest sense of being loved by a certain paternal figure or maternal figure as well. And it's like until those things are worked on, much of our lives are on a foundation of asbestos. And just like asbestos, if you keep that around for too long, it's going to cause a lot of toxicity for yourself.

And I think that it's only going to continue to cause you to have more of these sort of cycles. I'm okay with people having a season of frustration with avoidant behavior. I'm okay with avoidance having a season of frustration with severe anxious behavior. are. But it is a season, not an ice age. 100%. I did want to ask you a question. It's a loaded one. A lot of people ask this. Now, I've got my own opinion on it. But people asked, is it your place to tell them that they are avoidant?

I got this. How do you share this? Do I communicate? Do I tell them? And I was like, listen, as a receiving end of an anxious person, if somebody was telling me, by the way, you have anxious attachment. My response would be able, I'd be like, go fuck yourself. Like that would be my, even sometimes I'll say that to tech,

I'll be like, well, you're avoiding music. I'm not avoided. And I'm like, yeah, because it's true. It's like it is a, it's not something nice that you tell somebody, but I was curious like, you know, can we talk about, hey, those are avoidant tendencies? Or like, is there, is this an appropriate thing to talk about

if you're dating somebody and you see they're really avoidant? Like, do you bring it to their attention? Or do you just say like, hey, this isn't working for me. Such a great question. My answer is not going to be a straightforward one. I think nobody loves to be told that they have a thing. Like, you know, when you think about it,

why do you think so many people, when we think about sexuality, don't love to be told you're gay, you're bisexual, you're a lesbian, you're, you know, whatever it is. That's a part of ourselves, you know, because, oh, we don't necessarily like to be told who and what we are. And there's a lot of ego and stuff that goes into that as well too. Very valid. Now, when we also think about mental health, now industry hasn't exactly had the best reputation around. So could you imagine if someone says to you, you're avoidantly

attached? That is probably going to go about as well as, you know, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in the sense that it's going to probably cause a war. And it's not going to go very well. But on the flip side, there are things you could do that are both cheeky and also maybe supportive. You could, for instance, say, they, and this is, by the way, I'm doing this with an attempt. This is sort of like one of those things where I say, this is an attempt to try and bridge you closer together. You are not doing this with the hopes of changing the individual. And even then, bringing this awareness to the individual doesn't mean that they're going to necessarily change. If anything, there should be a tick in your box to be like, okay, if I've done this, if nothing else changes,

maybe I need to have radical acceptance over my situation. you could bring them together and be like, hey, I realize that sometimes when we communicate, sometimes when we interact together, things aren't necessarily as great as they could be, and I am owning my side of the street. I over communicate, I project, I'm expecting way too much of you, I have unrealistic expectations of our relationship. I was reading this stuff about attachment styles, and that's very consistent with an anxious attachment. Luckily, it's fixable and I'm trying to work on it because I want to make this relationship a safer space for you. I was wondering if maybe you thought that maybe, you know, this information book that I'm reading

might actually be something you're interested in too because I could see it really improving the way in which we relate to each other. If you do it like that, I don't necessarily think that's a problem because you're doing it in a very loving, kind way. Yes, you may have an ulterior motive to try and get them to, you know, wake up to their side of the street. I get that. But it's a gentle way of doing it. And the reason I recommend that is because there are a avoidantia creators like Tash from TikTok who've actually said something like that was done to me by my last partner. It actually was very cathartic and I really appreciated it. So that's why I'm going to say it's never always just they hate hearing about it or they love hearing about it. I think at the

end of the day, once again, they're all very different individuals, but it's how you go about it and what your intentions are 100%. I think there's there's a way that you can gently tell somebody like, hey, you know, I love what you said of like taking accountability. It's like for me, anytime I want to share vulnerability with somebody, I'm like, cool, surefire way to do that is like share something vulnerable. Like you want someone to open up. You want somebody, okay, well, then we need to create the environment of that. So let me go first. Hey, yeah, you're my shortcomings. Here's my shit. That way because it's like, then you don't want, you don't want somebody on the other side and be like, what is it all my fault? Like if you don't take accountability of like, well, by the way, so you're

this and you're this and you're this. First of all, are you a fucking therapist? I had no idea that you also are now, you can diagnose people. You can now, too. And like you said, I don't want to be told what I am. I don't want anyone to come. I've had people where I'll do videos and they're like, clearly you're an avoidant. And I'm like, you couldn't be further from the fucking truth. Like, you're making these assumptions because of my level of thinking, because of how evolved I've become as a human that, but now you've just made a deduction. And now I don't appreciate that because now you're just, I'm this. Cool. So with no information. information. But Sabrina, obviously you're avoided. Obviously. I must be. And the irony. And it's like, and so I think in that way, it's like, we have to look at it as this. If you're dating somebody and you say, hey, you know, I realize like our dynamic here might be a little anxious and avoidant. I have my anxiety. I get nervous when I don't hear from you. It makes me feel like you're going to leave me. And I've, I've had to sit and address, holy shit, that's my stuff to work on. That's not you. But this is what's coming up for me. And I've noticed that when I bring it up to you,

you kind of shut down a little bit. Does that feel uncomfortable for you? What feels uncomfortable for you? Is there, can I support you? Can I support you? And I'll ask my partner that. Like, we've talked about this many a times and he'll say, I need you to call me on my shit. He was like, I don't get angry. He was like, if you don't tell me, how am I going to know? And he's like, so I encourage it. Then when I do, and we have a conversation, like even he started therapy and I said, how's therapy? And he was like, do you not like the therapist? He's like, no, he's really good. And I was like, what? And he was like, I have to talk about my fucking feelings for an hour. And he was like, I hate this. And it's like he just has grown six, five human being grunting around the house.

And I look and I'm like, you sound like you're a fucking kid. And it's like, yeah, because he's human. And that's normal. And that's uncomfortable. And you know what's uncomfortable for my anxious ass sitting in it? Not getting the reassurance because healing is not linear. But if we're going to self-identify and self-diagnose everybody and you're this and you're this and you're this and you're this. Instead, what we can look at is, you know what? Here's a thought, too. Maybe they're avoidant, but maybe they're also really triggered by your anxiety. And that's a reality that people don't want to fucking face. And I had a client that did that. And she kept saying, my avoidin, my avoidant, my avoidant, and all that. And then when she would send me their interactions,

I'd be like, no wonder this guy shuts down. Look, you're a bull in a fucking China shop. You're going and going, going for the jugular. This guy didn't even get a fucking word in before you just declared everything. And then we wonder why they shut down. And I'm not saying that anybody has to take blame. This isn't a blame or shame game. This is a, wait, what, how am I showing up? Because if I see one more fucking TikTok or Instagram video of like,

match that energy, like we don't have time for that. If someone's going to be a voided and it's like, you know what? Let me know. How's your dating life working? Do you feel empowered? Do you feel like you trust yourself? Do you feel like you can make the determination? Hey, I don't care whether you're avoidant,

whether you're purple, whether you're green, or whether you're a fucking asshole, I don't appreciate this behavior. That is true empowerment of I know myself and I know how I feel and I know what works for me. Not if I understand them, then I'll understand myself better. You're just getting further away from you. Completely agree. And I want to add to that too by saying, I'm sure you've heard this. I get my gears in a grind when I hear people talk about you need to be high value for a high value.

I'm sorry to even have interrupted with a grunt, but I can think you can see how annoyed I get by this high value bullshit of your only high value because somebody took you to dinner and you're high value because you didn't sleep with a guy. Motherfucker, I wanted to hike on my first date and fucked my boyfriend right after and guess who's been together for almost a year and a half and we're looking at rings. You want to tell me that that's not, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just, that's a hill I'll die on. I hate this high value shit.

It was a grunt that was worthy of interruption because I think it's very relevant to say. Because, you know, when you were describing before about how, you know, you feel like you're getting further away from yourself. That's exactly it. I think for us, Anxataches, one of the hardest things, and by the way, I want to make it very clear for our audience, where Sabrina and I are talking, we're at a very different stage of our journey compared to a lot of people. There are probably going to be people who are Reddit keyboard warriors who are complaining about avoidance and I'm like, hey, you want to continue doing that for a period of time? I give my blessings to you, enjoy that. I personally have graduated from that because I'm like,

it's not for me anymore. I've been there, I've done that. I'm extremely grateful for every of a person I've had in my life. I know some people can't say that. They've been devastated by these breakups. They've had it really bad with certain individuals. And regardless of what we call them, the fact of the matter is the cost is too high and I get that. But when you're at a certain point in life with what we're talking about right now, one of the things that's really important in our journey of accountability, becoming more secure, is realizing how much we fended and twisted ourselves to try and please other people. I think one of the greatest issues that a lot of anxious Hatch's face, and I speak this for myself, is getting so obsessed on the vision of like

what we need to look like, where we're going with our future, it all needs to be a certain ideal image, and we can make it very, we can sort of bend ourselves like pretzels to try and please other people. Our goals aren't really for ourselves. They're actually to try and win another person over, to prove ourselves to our parents, to get the love of the mysterious stranger that we're trying to save us from our circumstances. And I think that when it comes to the high value stuff, the matching the energy sort of stuff, that is all ego stuff. And I think the danger of that sort of thinking is that it becomes, well, if I'm doing all

of this, then it means something about me. That kind of thinking really sets us up for a lot of chronic failure down the line as well, too, because the reality is this. I hate to break into all the high value coaches. I love to talk about this, but nobody cares about your value in dating. In fact, nobody thinks about it at all. Our attraction to one another is compromised of so, you know, consists of so many things where value is not one of them.

It's usually, you know, there's a lot of ego that sometimes goes into it. There's attraction. There's obviously a lot of the underlying stuff that we can't always equate for that creates that magical ingredient of attraction. And frankly, there's trauma. You know, I have to say like my type has radically shifted the more I've worked on myself to the point where now I can look at many avoidant attaches and think you are hilarious people that I would have hung out with way back when. But right now I'm moving into a different category

of people. I have many avoidant friends who I love dearly, but we may have different ways of relating now because I'm not constantly expecting them to meet my emotional needs. I even jokingly say to one of my mates who is very avoidant and I love him dearly and I say to him, you know, You are phenomenal at going to, you know, practical solutions, but I ain't ever coming to you for my emotional stuff. And he was like, thank you so much for saying that. I never want to hear your emotions or anyone else's. I'm fine, just giving you practical advice. And you know what? That radical acceptance is, man, we have a phenomenal friendship because I'm not asking for more. I accept it for what it is. And yes, there are avoidant attaches to act like they want more and seemingly want

to try and force a friendship, a romantic relationship, who honestly need a therapist because their loneliness is driving them to do, you know, very hurtful things to people. But circling back to all of this, I think one of the biggest problems that I see with a lot of us is we get so caught up in all of this advice of like how to be better for the other person and it's killing us. I thank you. I and I think that I'm glad you had that little PSA because I think at the end of the day like anything that we talk about, it's like, listen, I always say this. I'm like, if it's working for you, then go, go do it. Like if saying if you wanted to, he would. If that works for you, great. Good. If your mental health feels good about that, I don't give a shit. I'm not,

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I don't need to. I know my truth. I know what works for me. I know what I've seen. That's okay. And so if the high value stuff works for you, great. You have your coaches that you like to listen to like, great. But if we can even neuroplasticity, if we can even open a doorway of a mental thought of maybe this isn't the only way to think. Maybe this isn't the black and white. Is there a shade of gray? And maybe it's a, huh, you know, it's funny. Now that I think about it, listening to all, like somebody reached out to me and we were

a client, we were talking about it. And she said, I'm not going to say the name because I don't like to start like battles with people. But like there's a really big influencer and she's got shit advice. And she kept saying, well, like this person said, like this person said. And I stopped her and I asked her and I said, how is this advice been working for you? And she laughed and she goes, well, I'm here right now. And I said, okay. So then what are we even doing bringing this up? I said, you want me to validate what this person said of, well, they always come back.

And they come back even more miserable. And I was like, no, what happened was that guy was avoidant. He couldn't handle the situation that happened. He processed for a couple of months. He came back and took ownership of what happened and tried to have a conversation with you about it. one, that's not implying that he wanted you back. Some people are doing that because they just want to clear the air. I've had that. Guys were just like, hey, I wanted to apologize. And you're like, cool, thanks so much.

Take care. Two, you're making assumptions. Their life isn't as good. They come back because it's not better. It's like, I'm sorry, that comes from ego. That sounds like you're conflating yourself and saying how amazing you are. And see, I knew you'd want it. So what is that also doing?

Your core beliefs. Oh, see, I knew there wasn't anything wrong with me and it was them. But again, how is this helping? anybody. And again, if you can listen to all of this and at the end and say, well, I still want to say that avoidance ain't shit, go ahead. I am not going to stop you. Ken's not going to stop you. No one's going to stop you from doing that. But when your brain is constantly coming back, knocking yourself down, holding yourself, putting yourself down, making you feel like shit because you're constantly on these loops. Then maybe for a second, we can say they're humans dealing with things just like I'm a

human dealing with my shit. And I've got my issue just like they have theirs. I don't need to create a narrative around theirs because you know what i sure as fuck wouldn't want someone to create a narrative around mine beautifully said and i want to add to that by saying it will help so many people to realize that if you have a more of an avoidant adaption they're an alien like stop trying to project your way of being onto them when they get attached they run they're not going to come close and fight for you i've had so many people being like but why would they you know run if this relationship is so good and I've had to break it down and be like, look, I get where you're coming from. I personally wouldn't run in a relationship, which I'm happy with. But I've got to tell you,

when I've dated people who have a greater anxious attachment to me, I could think of nothing more than getting away from those sort of situations. So believe me, when the shoes on the other foot, you'll understand what that feels like. Even though my dominant attachment style has traditionally been anxious, I would say that, you know, it's one of those things where I think we get it's so twisted where we think, oh, well, these people should behave and conform in a particular way. When you hear, and this is another one, the no contact rule, where it's being weaponized as a way of let's get your avoiding X-back by going no contact. On one hand, sure, your avoidant partner needs that time to process and regulate what they've gone through because the cycle is they're

overwhelmed, they feel relief, they often feel, you know, disappointed and often miss you. But whether they get back with you or not is totally 50-50. Much of the time, They bounced into a new relationship to get away from thinking about you. That is their way of coping with their distress. And if they do circle back around you, what are the chances that it's necessarily because you've done anything or because they've worked on themselves too? If you go into it, like you were saying with that belief of,

well, I've shown my life is amazing. I'm doing all these amazing things. You are feeding into the belief that you had some control over this outcome, which you never did. And I think that many people with an anxious attachment, we believe, because it goes into our core wound of, I'm not good enough. I'm too much. And we bitterly want to get away from that by thinking, no, it's got nothing to do with me. Like, I can control this sort of situation and I can fix this. And it's like, you can't. You know, you can't solve that person

any more than you can try and tell us when Jesus is coming back to Earth. Like, you know, good luck. And for the avoidant attatcher, they're going through their own unique inner critic battle of fearing that, you know, they're not good enough for you, of fearing that they're a bad person. You know, I have to say, having listened to some of my avoiding clients, they're internalizing massive, massive battles with being a shit human being every damn day. The reason they behave the way is because they do not want to feel like a bad person much of the time. Ironically, not that's usually what happens is because they behave that way. funny how trauma works, but the point simply is, I think one of the worst things we can do

is treat these human beings exactly the same as us without actually offering some understanding, some empathy, and also owning our own side of the street being like, maybe I actually don't have as much control over my relationships as I would like to think I have. Let me ask you a question. Not you literally, the figurative. For anybody that thinks they're going to change someone avoidant, were you able to change your parents? Were you able to? I wasn't. I couldn't get. my father to become more emotionally available. Didn't matter how. You know what I did?

I made myself. I made it. I made my core belief. Of course, there's something wrong with me. See, you're too much. And I think that misconception, it's like, I had somebody who said, well, why can't they just text and say that they'll be busy and they need some space today instead of just not answering? And I was like, okay, so why can't you accept them not answering as opposed to needing that space? Like, you see how, well, why can't they? It's like, same, same with you. Same with you. And it's okay to go, I'm not saying, especially, when it comes to the texting. I'm not saying sacrifice things for life. If you're somebody that you're

like, hey, I like to text a few times in the day with my partner. Keyword, in a relationship. You want relationship shit before you're in a fucking relationship. You want to expedite. Just like an avoidance trying to keep their space, you're trying to get that closeness. So what we need to look at is how can we do this in a healthy way so that both people's nervous system doesn't get so overwhelmed and completely shut down because realistically, my partner and I are amazing. He's had women before that, like, he told them the boundary. He told me about the texting and they went off and he had to block a girl because she was screaming and yelling and she was leaving him voice notes and going off.

And he's like, I dated this girl for three weeks. We barely knew each other. She wanted more texting. And I told her, no, like, I want to hang out with her more. And she, you fucking used me and all this. And he was like, at that point, I just disengaged. And that is when it's like, yeah, the avoidant doesn't want to be the asshole. just like the anxious person says,

why don't want to come off crazy? And it's like, but neither one are, you're not crazy and he's not an asshole, but you come off that way when we get so dysregulated that we're not in our prefrontal cortex handling decisions like a grown-ass adult now.

We're going back and regressing back to four-year-old, you having a fucking temper tantrum with daddy because daddy didn't give you what you wanted. Yeah. And I'm sure you've also experienced this too. Like, I mean, I'm very, like I really relate to my anxiety. I'm grateful for it. in many, many ways that I've gotten older.

But, you know, as someone who even recently sees when panic hits me, I am not usually texting people first and foremost to tell them, by the way, my anxiety is now at a 10 out of 10. Usually, I'm, if anything, my IQ drops by about 50 points and I start doing all kinds of whack shit. I'm not excusing the fallout and the consequences of what happened, but I'm just trying to say that, you know, I think we have these unrealistic expectations of people

that it's just like, oh, well, they should be able to do this. It's like if their mental health and their regulation is able to be at that state, yeah, then sure. But we also need more context, like exactly to your point that you said many times throughout this, you know, this podcast, like, okay, but what are we doing to contribute to this too? You know, I think that one of the best things we can learn in our journey to become more secure. And actually, this is really helpful for the avoidant attaches to is we really need to become more self-sufficient and also learn to just own our side of the street and take care of ourselves. it's unrealistic to expect our partner to be able to hold space for us all the time,

to be there for us all the time. If we're that strung up expecting our partner to be able to be there and sue their anxiety all the time, it might be high time to relate to a therapist and not to a partner. Mike drop on that because I think what people, like you said earlier, anxious and avoidant are codependent on each other. They both need each other to continue on. The anxious person needs the avoidant to pull away so they can closer. The avoidant needs to pull away so the anxious person can come.

come closer. This isn't like an accidental fate. There's a reason that these two continue to engage. And instead of it, both people blaming each other, it's like, maybe we just take ownership and be like, all right. So this is how I'm showing up. This doesn't work for me anymore. And I don't want to fucking do it like this anymore. So. Yeah, I completely agree. I just can. This was awesome. Thank you so much. Coming on and chatting with us about all things avoidant. We talked about tip of the iceberg. We didn't even really get as far into as we could have. But I wanted to give just some highbrow so that people could learn a little bit more. But where can people find you so that they can learn even more about this?

Because you talk so much about it and I love it. I am on TikTok and Instagram at kenread.co. So that's k-e-n-r-R-E-I-D dot co. And even though I am fully booked and not taking any clients at the moment, my teammates are, I've handpicked them, they're phenomenal. They know all about attachment styles working through that. And also, if you are going through a breakup and are really struggling through that, by the way, no shade to anyone who's in the thick of the shit and feeling angry towards their

avoiding partner right now. Again, it is a phase. Honor that anger. My team can help you out with that. It's totally fine. If you are looking to more work on your attachment style, because you're at the stage we're like, I continuously date avoidance and I need to work on myself. We can do that too. Long story short, you can find me on my socials. Perfect. And I'll have all that linked in the show notes so people can find you directly. And Ken, just thank you so much for being on the podcast. My pleasure. It's been honestly a little private dream come true to be like, yay. I got on. So thank you very much for having me. It's been so much fun and I love the depth of what we talked about today. Likewise, Ken, I'll chat with you soon.