The Sabrina Zohar Show - 65: Eating disorders, trauma responses differing between children and how a lack of control can manifest differently based on experiences with big sister Jaimie Bailey!

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

*TRIGGER WARNING! We do discuss eating disorders in this episode. On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by her big sister Jaimie Bailey for a heart-to-heart talk on trauma and its manifestation in her relationship with food. Jaimie is a holistic nutritionist passionate about wellness and a healthy relationship with food and diet!  Jaimie talks about how trauma initially manifested itself with her and her fixation on tiny details about herself. Her older brother's addictions began to influence her choices and her addiction to the high. Her household environment was hostile and lacked joy, so her feeling of joy was tied to substances. It also led to the avoidant attachment style because of coping alone and the lack of trust in others to protect her.  The first step in dealing with a problem like binge eating is understanding why it is happening. Once you have this understanding, you can decide to rise above it and prevent it from happening again.  Want to work with Jaimie? Insta and Stan Store ! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, friends to another Friday and a very, very, very special guest episode. So you guys have met my brother, you've met my mama. You've heard enough about my father, but now you actually get to meet my sister. And my sister and I, she holds a very special place in my heart because my sister growing up, like when we were really, really little, like she was my second mom. She was like the one stealing me out of the crib.

She's three and a half years older than me. and I have looked up to her. To me, my sister did know wrong, you know, and so as an adult now realizing, like, she's a human and she has her own shit and so many of the issues I have from childhood, like, were really innocent that happened. And I just really wanted us to talk about, and also trigger warning, something that I think is going to be really helpful to people. But talk about the trauma responses differing between children and eating disorders and how a lack of control can manifest differently based on experiences. We see me high anxiety.

We see my brother a little bit ADHD, a bit more avoidant. I'm kind of avoidant anxious. And then we have my sister who is very avoidant. And it's been really interesting to learn more about her. And truthfully, guys, this conversation that we had was the first time she and I have spoken about this in our adult life. So I'm really excited. You guys are going to get so much information. Jamie is an incredible coach. So if anybody is dealing with food issues, she's a nutritionist. She went to, she's gotten so many certifications. She went to school. She's done integrative nutrition. She's all, you know, has so many different holistic practices. So anybody that wants to work with her. Link will be in the show notes. You can learn more about

Jane. Work with her. If anybody needs any help, she's who helped me kick smoking, kick all the meds, kick all the food, kick all the bullshit, started working out. Like, my sister changed my life. So I'm so excited for you guys to listen to her story and hear and resonate with somebody. And maybe this is an experience that you guys have had. So I'm really, really excited today. Guys, please don't forget to rate the show. I will be a broken fucking record about this. But please, please, please, please, go to the top at Spotify, three buttons. Please don't forget to follow the show. Rate it.

Apple is at the bottom. Google, Amazon, wherever IHurt Radio, wherever you guys are listening, please, please take two seconds to rate and follow the show. It literally means the world. And as always, if you need anything, link in show notes. If you want to work with me or ask a question

or anything that you guys need, it's available there. I can't say it's always going to be available since we don't know what's going to happen. But within any day now, the course is also coming out. So I'm just, I'm so excited for all the newness that's to come. And I just, I can't wait to share everything with you guys. Without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it, shall we?

Hello, friends. I am so excited. Welcome to, first of all, a digital world. You get to see us. But welcome, welcome to Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. And today, we've got a very, very, very special guest. We have my big sister, Jamie Bailey, Jamie Zohar Bailey, for anyone confused by that. But, Jane, welcome to the podcast. Hi. This is a new way to see you. Right. It's like over a microphone. on crazy. And what I'm excited about is like we've had Joe on, we've had mom on. We're not going to have dad on. It's not necessary. But I'm excited because I think for so many people, they see siblings as like, well, you guys experience the same things, right? And it's like that could not be more further from the truth, I think between the three of us having three very different parents, three very different experiences and three very different ways that we all handled stress and anxiety and trauma. But before we get into all that fun, can you just, well, you know, introduce yourself to the audience who probably doesn't know who you are yet. Oh, hi, friends.

First of all, congrats on all of this, Sab. This is as a proud older sister, loves seeing this. I am Jamie Bailey. I am a recovering perfectionist, people pleaser, and in constant recovery from meaning disorder, which I know is part of the reason why Sab wanted me to come on and speak about this with, yes, upbringing and how it led to certain things. It also led me to find many passions and wellness. I'm a holistic nutritionist, as well as I've been an indoor cycling instructor for close to 15 years now, moved out to San Diego and opened my own studio, as well as, yeah, continuing to help men, women,

and all of such with any kind of nutritional needs. You also forgot to mention that you're the mother of one of the cutest kids ever, to my nephew. I am a mom. Yeah. So let's not forget about. I'm a wife and all the things, all the hats. All of that. But if anyone's in San Diego or New York, check out Grindhouse because there's nothing better, especially if you want your ass kicked. But I wanted to really like, I think something that I, it's funny. First of all, you and I have actually never really spoken about a lot. A lot. Yeah. A lot of things. But really how, like, when we think about addiction, you know, like, I think people see it as like I had a neutherapist. I love Britt Frank on. And we were talking about a. addiction. And she's like, addiction's not just drugs and alcohol. Like, it's not just, I turned my, I turned to a drink or I turned to this. She's like, even her, she was like, narcissism is an addiction. She's like, there are so many ways addiction plays out, which actually would make sense. But I think it's interesting how Joe turned to drugs. You turned with food and that control. And I turned to sex.

Like that was my using my body. But I was curious if you could kind of like just even, something I've never even really asked you was like, how did all of this start? Like, because here's what I remember. Joe was taken when we were, I was, you were 13, I was nine, something like that. My brother went to a wilderness program and a drug, he had a drug addiction. So all those documentaries that people are seeing now of the wilderness programs, like, that was our brother. And then you did all the whole thing. But like, when did this really start for you as far as understanding even like how you were manifesting like trauma?

You know, like, and how that was acting out? And then like, how did that manifest for you? Yeah. So it's funny, obviously, like, going through recovery and years of therapy and unpacking it all, it, it, like, morphed for me, if that makes, right? So it started, you know, I just have, like, random memories of, like, standing in front of the mirror, just trying to put my hair up in a bun and, like, doing it 27 times until there was no bump. Like, just this, like, it had to be a certain way, and I wouldn't get off it. and it was like, I just fixated. You know, it was just this constant fixation on like something.

I remember that. Yeah. I was subtle. I didn't think anything. My arms would be sore from putting up a freaking bun. And I was like, nope, there's a bump. And everyone would get off it. And it was like, you know, that back then it was like, well, why is she so, you know.

And honestly, I don't remember a lot of food per se being a quote unquote issue at a young age. High school, I went, it was either like all or nothing. Like it was like nothing, nothing, nothing. And then it would be like a massive amount of food. But it wasn't, I don't know, I was active. I was a kid. Like it wasn't a thing. Truthfully.

And then I got into, personally got into drugs and alcohol very young because I had an older brother, right? So we would have house parties or he would take me to parties or I would be with friends and I also had older friends. So I started smoking pot in middle school, started drinking, obviously, like, like well into high school. So it started as some substance. Yeah.

I think for me, just a segue, like my addiction was a high. Yeah. It could have been from, you know, sneaking out. It could have been from drugs.

It could have been about alcohol. And it could have been, I was, I loved pills, anything that, like, just make me feel alive and high. Like,

I wanted to feel good. At the end of the day, I wanted to feel good. I wanted a hit of dopamine. Yeah. That's what I wanted. especially in our household where we just there was nothing there was no joy

you know and I hate to say that and it's it but there was no joy and it was suffocating right it just everything was suffocating and there was like a message very well received at an early age of like you're a nuisance you're just a bother

you're a bother God it's like even you're just saying that there's one memory that kind of haunts me like I don't know about you but like and I get very vulnerable on this podcast So, like, everybody knows. There's one specific memory that to this day doesn't surprise me that you didn't like math. And I'll never forget.

I don't know if you know exactly where I'm going. I do. You had to have been, what, like, no joke five or six. Like, you were a baby. A little bit older because I remember it. So I was young. We were in the first house. So I had to have been under six.

So, like, I was young. I was probably crazy age. I was probably around eight. Something like that. And I remember you were doing math with dad. And every time you got a problem, he would hit you. Yeah. And you were crying hysterically, like, bawling.

And I remember sitting at the door and it's like, it's etched in my brain watching just seeing you helpless and seeing him do that. And then knowing mom was down to, like, nothing was happening. No, I have that memory of and like mom walking out, like looking like and be like, bye, I'm going to take your brother to cry or take Sabrina to dance or something. And it was like, you're left. There was just there was like no one was going to protect or help or save. It was just. So back to, you know, how it started. I guess it's that, right?

How it starts is what was the message, what was my message received at such a young age that I had to learn how to just figure out how to survive on my own, right? Like I had to cope and figure out what to do by myself because no one was going to fucking help me. So you know, that's, you turn more avoidant.

So like, you know how me, so we talk attachment styles. You turned more inward of like, I can't trust anybody. I was like, I had to just protect. Keep it inside. Whereas me, I learned the opposite. Act out, scream, yell.

somebody will listen. Yeah. Shows you how one's not right, no one's not wrong, but it's, let me ask you, were you feeling internally, but you just didn't know how to say it? Because that's the misconception that avoidance don't feel. And it's like, oh, totally. I mean, I remember, I know this sounds called awful. Like, at a very young age, like, saying to mom, like, I don't want to live, like,

at a really young age, like, to the point where, like, you should be concerned. And I felt it. And it felt so real for me where I was like, I don't want to be here. Like, I think it would actually be easier if I were dead. And I remember saying that at, like, 11 years old. Same. Literally 11 years old. And, you know, again, you know, sure, as a mom who didn't have tools, like, what is she supposed

to say? And then like, oh, my God, how could you say that, you know? Instead of like, whoa, let's figure out why you're saying that. So whatever. But, like, I had that. And for a long time, like, well into middle school high school. And then there was, you know, then God turned to. sixth grade. I remember that turned like friends, friends, right, quote unquote, like turning on me and

like being bullied and I just wanted to be accepted. I just wanted people to like me. So then that's like recovering people pleaser. That was a big one, right? So if the message of being when we're young was like, like, you upset me. Right. You're pissing me off. You know, then it was like, oh, okay, I did something wrong. So for every relationship after that, forever, and honestly, probably even still to this day, like, even if one of my employees, if they come in me, I'm like, what did I do? Yeah. What did I'm like, oh my God, what I do? Or to that, or like now I've switched it to like a more of an empowerment thing of like, what can I do to fit? I right away, like, what can I do? How can I fix this? You know? So there was just a message. And that's how it started. And then, you know, go to,

So I get through high school, you've seen me, you saw me come home rolling and drunk off my ass at 18 years old. Oh, I remember you barreling down in dad's apartment screaming, like, puke on my pants. Like I was, I was a mess. But like to that, like I said, it was all or nothing. Yeah. That even as a young kid, like that was, that was my, you know, red flag of addiction, right? I either didn't drink or I was fucked up. And I, was, I don't remember the night. And that led into, I moved to New York. I didn't even go to my high school graduation. I wanted to get out. I was out. So I moved to New York and sure, I could do whatever I want. The partying continued. Like, it was more heavy on like alcohol going out, whatever,

you know, whatever. At this point, did the food stuff start for you? Because I remember when you moved to New York, mom telling me, go stay with your sister. She's lost a bunch of weight. I'll never forget that. That was a little bit after. So that was, I'll tell you what that was. So I moved to New York, literally, I was what? 18. Yeah, same. I was a very active young surfer girl in South Florida, whatever.

It moved to New York and was drinking, was eating. Honestly, completely mindlessly, didn't think anything about it. Like so much of the fact that I didn't think anything of it that I would literally, as I was gaining my version of a freshman 15, I would put on a pair of pants and be like, oh, weird. they must have shrunk in the wash. I didn't think, oh, I got bigger. Yeah. So, like, I was always used to being small, petite, and we'll get to that, too. That was another message growing up, right?

Of, like, if you change, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm, like, going off on a tangent. But, like, we would be around all the women in our family, right? And it was like, she doesn't look good and what's going on with her and what's wrong? And it's like, or she's a freaking woman and she just gained five pounds. I don't know, you know. Everything was diet and what food are you eating? member Lucy was all about, you know. But, you know, but mom, I think mom never brought that in the house and I think she did a good job.

But, but mom was also very big on like, do you need to get her hair done? Yeah. Your tan looks good. Like there was never praise on like, you're so funny or you're so kind or you're so, it was only, the only positive reinforcement was like, you look good. Which is so funny because you got that and I didn't. That's so what the funny thing was you were a model. You were when like, you are beautiful, but like in high school,

you looked at Jennifer Aniston. Like you were, you were something. But I could care. I didn't, like, I didn't care. Like, you know, I would roll out. Like, yeah, I cared about my hair and I would strain it. Like, because that's what everyone my age was doing. But you were also effortlessly beautiful.

So I'm not shocked that you had. I'm not shocked you had a lot of jealousy because that, if I have photos of you from then and you're like, you had a fucking six pack and you were beautiful. But, but I'm sure we can segue into body as more via. I did not see any of it. I still saw the girl who had braces, glasses, and was teased in six and seventh grade. And then for me, the minute, I was in, I'll never forget, I was in seventh grade. I was at this stupid, like, private school because I, that school was another issue. And the minute,

I remember the glasses came off, I got contacts in seventh grade, the braces came off. All of a sudden, the popular girls wanted to be my friend. The boy started to flirt with me. And I was like, what? Like, this is weird. But I didn't have anyone at home to, like, facilitate this. Like, what's happening? Oh, well, well, you're getting puberty. and you're coming into yourself. So for me, it was just all of a sudden, like, you're my friend and I have attention and fine. But, like, I still really didn't put a lot of, like, focus on it.

So let's go back. Okay, 18, moved to New York, start gaining my version of weight, freshman 15, whatever. Okay, I was in a codependent relationship with my cousin. Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of weird. I meet my now husband, a lot of weird jealousy with that. I finally somehow, by the grace of God, we're like, we're done.

Like, we're going to move. We need to move in separate houses like, we're over this. I get my own apartment, a two by four. I'll never forget it. And I remember that place. Oh my God. Mice, the whole thing. Yeah.

But it was mine. Welcome to the West Village. It was in Chelsea. I remember that. And it was mine. Yeah. And I just had this like, okay, like I'm on my own. I want to eat better, right?

Like I think I want to like not drink as much. And I'll never forget. I picked up this book. It was the first diet, quote unquote book I ever picked up. It was called like the three hour diet or something. And it was just basic principles of like try eating every three hours. And just I was like, okay, let me whatever. I don't remember the exact details of it.

But I did it. And I tried following the little meal plan. Like I'm really okay at following rules until I take my will back. So I am on my own. whatever. I don't remember where I was working at this point. But I think the restaurant. Because I used to come visit you and you were at the pastry. You had given up. You were not teaching anymore and you were at pastry because I remember

Ashton walked you to work. And I remember when I come to visit. I started teaching way after that. So no, no, I meant teaching. I remember when you were just going to school to be a teacher? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I dropped out of fashion school. I went to community college, was trying to just figure out the road, right? Get this apartment. Yeah. And then I think you were working in the West. It was, that's when I started going to pastry school. I just loved being in the kitchen.

I loved working with my hands. So whatever. So I lost the weight that I had gained because I, sure, I stopped drinking. I started like being mindful of my food. And at that same time, started getting attention. Like, you look amazing. Like, wow, you, you look. I swear, I'd be like, really?

Like, I was so detached. My brain and my body were so detached from each other. Like, one's over here, one's over here. And it was like that for most of my life. Like, you would take me to therapy or maybe my, and you would ask me what's, I don't know. That was always my go-to. Like, I don't know.

Okay. Totally detached. Yeah. Mom and dad went through their final cutoff. Many phone calls of your piece of shit. I'm done with you guys. I'm dad. The whole emotional roller coaster of that,

this like spark just, I don't know. It was like, and then it was just like in tandem of, I'm going to keep going down this road of less food, less calories, less more mood. And then and then that enter when mom saw me when I went home for our grandfather's funeral. I remember coming, I'll never forget, coming down the escalator and her jaw just being like, what is going on in New York? I remember that was when mom was like, there's something going on. What is going on in New York?

And I was like, what? So again, still, like, what are you talking about? I'm actually taking care of myself. Like, I'm eating properly and I'm, you know, and I guess it was also a thing too. Like, I've always just naturally been like a smaller person. So then it was like, whoa, to even worse. So I guess you can say I get back home and started to maybe think like, oh, well, shoot. Like, and I don't know, maybe something is wrong or.

And then, listen, I think anyone that's been in this position, you can only restrict for so long because then the pendulum has to swing the other way. So at this point, you're not binging or you're just now restricted. Straight up interxia. So that's how it started. It started a straight up interrexia because I did not see what was in the mirror, right? Full on body dysmorphia, full on like just total denial. Like, what? What do you mean?

Like, I'm fine. And at this point, you're dating Ashton, right? You're with your now partner. Yeah. So did he have any idea? Because that was what people asked a lot was like, how did you navigate this newly in a relationship? So we were dating, we started dating like well before any of that even kicked in.

Like when we started dating, I was still, we would, we would rip pizza. We would go out. I was, dude, I was chasing beers with tequila shots. Like, yeah. Or vice. You know, it was a total like, sorry. Yeah. But it was, it was some sort of trauma that just set me down even further.

Control can do that too. Like a lack of, like, listen, who we had as a father? I would imagine food seems like control, because I think a lot of people were asking, like, questions like that, which I'm sure you can understand and relate. Because, like, for me, I had a completely different relationship with food than you ever did. That was not my control was my body. I used sex and I used how I showed up.

But food, I've never, like, I remember I'll never forget us being at dinner once. And I said, I'm done. And I pushed my bowl away and you looked at me and your eyes when you were like, what do you mean you're done? Yeah. You're like, how do you, what do you mean you're just done eating? And I was like, yeah, I'm just done. Just to show, like, again, me being so detached, being like, you could feel your body being done.

Like, you're not just done because it's out of the bowl. Yeah. And, like, that was a very big, like, oh. Oh, so there is something wrong with me. Like, I am not in my body, right? So I would say, so here's the other thing to it. I remember being in therapy and they would kept, they kept saying you, oh, it's a thing of control. I was like, no, it's not.

really controlling. I want to just numb. So, you know, yes, having restriction around things maybe got me that high that I was chasing. Perception of control. Right. It got me the high I was chasing, but then at the same time, it hit me, I will say, it was in a recent meditation I was doing. And I woke, I woke, I got out of it and just started immediately crying and was like, oh my God, I think I finally like realize what part of it was. And, you know, we've talked a lot about like, you know, it's a buzzy thing now about like inner child. And I noticed as the eating disorder morphed into binging and purging,

what was really going on, right, is that literal inner child, every time this little girl wanted to open her mouth, I was like, I literally would shove her face away with my aunt and I would show food in my mouth. Every single time she wanted to start talking to me, I would start eating. Ashton would leave the apartment to go out with some buddies, I was right in the kitchen.

I couldn't even be alone. To the point where, like, you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, we would put a freaking padlock on the fridge. We would, I would literally throw everything out of the house. I had like a safe, like whatever. It was like a food safe. So he knows at this point. Oh, totally.

And it was like, hey, if you're struggling, like just text me. Like, I'm going to fucking text you. No, I'm in it. I couldn't even be alone. A question. How did you, because somebody asked, like I'm dating somebody that is going through. How did you even? tell him for the first time, like, hey, I think I have a problem.

Did you? Did he, like, how did this become, like, how would you recommend somebody to talk about this with a potential partner? Because that can seem really fucking scary. So a big part of this disease, right, is that there's a lot of shame. And to the point where, like, I've never even, I don't, I mean, unless someone really asked me, like, I don't not, I'm not just like open about so much of it, but I obviously now am. but there's a lot of shame around it. And then you throw in, you're trying to take care of yourself

and you already feel guilty and shameful. But then, so you're failing yourself every time you fail, which in order to get to like a good place of recovery, you're going to fail a million and five times. But then you also feel like you're failing them. So there'd be many times where Ashton would come home. I'm usually asleep, let's say,

and this is again, like in our 20s, right? So he would go out with buddies, he would come home, I'm well asleep. We'd wake up the next morning and it was either like, I'm really sorry and I'm disappointed to myself, I did it again. And then we would have this conversation.

I'm like, okay, what can you do better? Like, it was so supportive. But it was like, so now I'm ashamed and I'm guilty of myself, but I also now have to tell you, hey, I relapsed again. Right. And then I'll,

so back to your question, obviously, like honesty and communication is the biggest thing, but it's like, it was so much of like, I need you to hang on with me, man. I know I'm going to see that light at the end of the tunnel. And I can't even tell you how many times there would be two good days and then there'd be five in a row of bad.

There would be two weeks of good and then I would slip. Like this was years. Yeah. Years of up down, up down, up down, up down. And then, you know, seeking my own help and having like going through the 12-step program and having sponsors going to meetings. Like it was another full-time job. Yeah. Which leads me to, with all of the help that I was seeking and getting, I think, I think,

I think it probably took me longer truthfully just because there was a certain help that I was seeking. And I couldn't find it, right? I wanted to talk to someone who had gone through it or I needed, I needed, I needed to talk to someone who had gone through it. So, you know, years into this, I'm finding this new relationship with food. I'm finding that like I don't have to be afraid of food per se and I can use it as medicine. I can use it as a healing, like literally as a healing, not just a coping mechanism anymore. So I go to school for like a holistic nutrition program.

It was so Eastern. It was incredible. We learned like literally like food is medicine, herbs, all of these things. Also learning like what, what sort of like anxiety and realize like, wow, I'm making it worse by the food choices I'm making and so on. Like it created this huge umbrella that I just became so freaking passionate about. Which we're definitely going to talk about some of those foods that cause anxiety because for sure. You have been drilling that in my head. Yeah.

Because you started fitness before me. You started eating better before me. Like you've started all of that well before I did. And I used to always scoff and be like, what are you talking about? Like I didn't even talk about disconnected. Like you remember the old me. Yeah. For people that's like, I think it's funny because people see the two of us now of like, oh, Sabrina's so calm.

Jamie's in such a great marriage and everything's great. And it's like, you sometimes remind me of how terrible. Like I'll never forget going on to lunch with you and showing you text and being, talk about shame, being so ashamed of myself. of like, same thing. I relapse. I did it again. I thought I was going to be good.

And I panicked and I got scared and I text this guy a hundred times. And you're just, it's the same, same but different. So I think like people understanding that this addiction, as you can see how it can very easily swap between both of us. But like what was the common denominator in the entire story that you just told was very similar to me,

unresolved childhood issues that because you didn't want to face it and I didn't want to face it. Like it took both of us. I remember even like a couple of years ago I told you, I said, I feel like you were when I were walking, we got our nails done. And I said, I just feel like too much. And you turned to me and you said, where'd you learn that from? And I looked at you and it hit me.

And I was like, dad, I was like, think about it. And we talked about it. And I think that was the first time because for so long, even me in our relationship, I felt abandoned. I felt you abandoned me. And it's like, and you did that because that was the avoid and anxious thing. You abandoned because you were protecting yourself saying, I don't feel safe with anybody here. All the while, I'm like nine years old being like, but what about me? And then we had, I mean, like, every memory.

even when I do my inner child stuff, every memory goes back to that, whatever, was it, Parkside House where like, I almost got kidnapped off your bike, remember that morning? I, like, dad is throwing food at mom and mom leaving. I just Joe punching the walls, Joe getting his ass kicked, waking up, like the day I lost you was the day mom sat us down and said, your brother's gone. And I'll never forget your eyes glossed over and you left the table. And that was, that was it. That was the end of our relationship.

And I now understand it. but it took me so long of going back and talking to little me of asking her, like, where are you sad? How are you hurting right now? And then not understanding like it's not just mom and dad. It's our siblings that play into it, especially for people like with older siblings that mimic like parents, you know, when they're 10, 15, 20 years older. But it's so important to understand all of these aspects. And so thank you for also sharing all of those aspects. But I wanted to ask, you know, coping mechanisms.

You talked about that of like somebody had asked too. you know, like every, like the one, I think we got four or five questions of how do I stop feeling guilty having too much food and not wanting to throw up? You know, how do I handle, like somebody said, I used to hide snacks as a kid and I find myself doing the same. How can I release the shame around it? So much shame around behaviors. Yeah. What do you have to help people that are skipping meals, hiding snack, living in shame about who they are and what they're dealing with? So those are all beautiful questions. And really, again, it comes down to so much about like, well, what are you detaching from? Right? Because I know, again, like, whether you're picking up a drink to not feel,

right? Like, how many people do you hear them say like, oh my God, I had such a long day at work. Let's go get a glass of wine. Right. Well, why? Right. Right. Like, oh, I had a hard, uncomfortable day. Let me go so. For me in the beginning, right, it was like, restrict, restrict, restrict, because it felt like, fuck yeah, I got this. I'm winning this one, right? Like, I'm not eating that

or I'm having half the board. It's like a punishment. Yeah, to, okay, here's a feeling that's coming up because that's the thing, right? Like, and then once you start to fill yourself back up, no pun intended, you start to feel a lot more.

So that was the other thing. It was like, once real recovery hit, it was like, whoa, I'm feeling everything, right? From being the kid, you know, every time I would speak up, right? Like being smacked or what? So whatever the messages were, what am I running from?

Right. Again, my partner would leave the house and all of a sudden I'd be alone. I couldn't even be alone with myself. So really like honing in on like, well, what are you trying to numb out from? And then all of a sudden, you're left with this space of, okay, so here's something I'm trying to numb out from. And then here's the thing I want to reach for. If I can just give myself that pause, that was probably the biggest.

I'll never never forget literally my sponsor being like, you are going to to sit on your hands until the feeling passes. Yeah. And after that, you still want to go eat. Go ahead. Yeah. But give yourself that pause, that minute, to just be like, I'm not going to go right from feeling to fucked, right?

So just give yourself that pause to like not just get right into the, to picking up the substance. Because that's exactly what it is. It's picking up the substance. In terms of getting off the shame and the guilt, like, listen, if you don't think you're going to fail a million times and. order to hit some success, like good freaking their luck, right? So you're going to

fall on your face, you're going to have guilt and shame, but like, instead of going back to that, you're a piece of shit and whatever the stories you thought, like, hey, how about talk to yourself a little differently this time? So don't be that parent. Don't be whoever that voice, oh, you're too much, right? Like, all of a sudden, you have to find yourself, like, now you're your own parent.

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You know what I mean? Like, a lot of these things are theories. Yeah. We don't discredit that. And I think for me, inner child work was the key that unlocked so much. And like, because like you said, putting that speed bump, like when I wanted to text. And it's, it's so interesting to hear your experiences and my experiences being so similar. It just manifested differently. Instead of you texting, it was me getting out of the kitchen. Right.

Like, do not pick up that extra piece of whatever. Right. No, Sabrina, do not text that guy. It was the same thing. And sit in the discomfort. It was impulsive, compulsive, all the things. You know, my amazing friend, Mariah, she's like an incredible healer. And she's helped me so much, even recently with like,

because that's something, like, you're always trying to up level, right? So sure, maybe certain things aren't an issue anymore, but like, I still have a lot of the like, I still go to the, I don't know's a lot.

Like, that's my like, well, I want to up level, but, well, I don't know. And she said to me yesterday even, like, we all come in perfect and,

and, and, you know, um, quote unquote, not fucked up. Right. And then there is something along the way in our journey that, like,

puts these little nicks on us, if you will. And, you know, then you become this adult and you're like trying to navigate life with these nicks and like, yo, I need someone to take the edge off. And it was like, these were my things to take the edge off. But going back to, again, right, like how you speak to yourself is such a big one. And that one took me years of practice because I was,

I mean, it's something else that we're covering from is like a serial, like so hard on myself. kind of person. I was going to say one thing that I've learned about you just even knowing you is like, and it's funny because Masha and I were talking about it. Just like in general, we were just talking about stuff. And I was just telling her about like things that you do and just, and she was like, huh, it's interesting.

She's like, your sister goes to extremes. Yeah. You go to such extremes of like. Oh, I'm the best employee ever. Like, yeah, like I started a job like, oh, I'm going to be the best and I'm going to make you love me and I'm going to work my ass off. And that, which is every job I've had along the way, like burnout, burnout, burn out, burnout.

Of course. Because it was again, hello. What did I say before? It was zero. 200 or it was all or nothing. I either didn't do it. Yeah. Or I did it all the way. And that's just how I went with everything. It's interesting though, too, because look at the parents we had. We had a people pleasing mother who was like, like, I love mom with every bone in my body. But like she did not have the tools to have three children. Like that's just what it was. She did not have the tools to teach her

children what they needed to know. She didn't even know them. She didn't have the tools for herself. Yeah. And then we have a narcissistic father who like taught us a lot of things, unfortunately. So it doesn't shock me that you have the duality as well because we do have a father that goes to extremes and is like so from zero to a hundred. One minute, calm and then within mere seconds. And then it's like people wonder where that like inconsistency comes from. Our experience was literally in the same conversation. You could be like how he disowned me a couple of years. My love, I love you. And then you say one thing. No, dad, I don't want to. It's that's it. You're a piece of shit. Go fuck yourself and all these things. What's crazy. I don't know about you. I normalized the fuck. out of that. For it took me, what, 20? Use your voice? What voice? What was? Yeah, like,

there was no voice. What's a boundary? Yeah. But, like, and now setting them with dad feels so weird, because you're like, wait, this is weird. You're the person that, like, I'm scared to set this with, but now I feel like I can do it. But I was going to ask, like, as you started to do this work and as you started to, like, work on your shit and work on your eating, like, how did you start to interact with the people in your life? Like, was that you start? Like, with dad, you know what I mean? People like culprits like mom, dad, Joe, me, even, like, that were such a big reason for these addictions and these problems. What was that like then now on the other side of it being like, fuck?

Now I have to like have a new relationship with this. Yeah. Again, it takes a lot of time and a lot of fumbles. But like the word boundary, right? Like I had to learn to put boundaries around myself around everything. Really, to be honest, like I had to put boundaries around food. I had to put boundaries around exercise because I would overdo all of it. Yeah.

And then even to the point of, yes, relationships, like I would overdo even that, whereas I would overdue, like, right, you dive all in with someone or you just let them take over, right? And all of a sudden I just found myself like losing myself and I would lose my voice. And, you know, whether it would be around you, Joe, mom, dad, like all of a sudden I just felt like I was that little girl again. Triggered. Totally. And I was going to ask you another fucking question.

Oh, yeah, because I know you work with clients. And, like, I think that's, it's so funny because, like, you said something earlier where, like, you couldn't find somebody that you wanted. And that's kind of how I started all this was like, when I was going through my journey, I mean, like, I would come to you and Ash and ask for advice. And, like, what would Ash say to me every single time? It's your husband. He would always say, I'm not the person to give you dating advice. He was like, I don't. Like, I met your sister when we were in 1920.

Yeah. And I felt like I wasn't on an island alone. I had no one to talk to. You go to the internet and it's like clickbait and do this to get a guy back. And I'm following all these people in this misery fucking loop going. But the internet's telling me to do this. But it's not yielding what I want. The reality and the perception weren't matching.

Now, is that how you like started really getting into coaching? And like now that you work with clients and like for anybody that wants to work with Jamie, that is an availability. But like how do you see now like one when you're working with them with your own recovery, like how that mirrors. But how do you, what do you see? I think more often with people that you're working with right now. I, man, I love what I do so much because it keeps both sides of the street so clean, right?

So it keeps me and constant reminder of like keep doing the work, right? And then I had, I had it like this epiphany, like, you know, so I finished schooling for nutrition and all. And it was like, yeah, cool. Like I could talk to people about like losing weight or getting more energy or acne and digestive issues because I was like a huge part of my story too is like everything just sat in my gut again no pun or no no coincidence when you don't have a voice right like yeah your gut gets totally disrupted so um and that's where a lot of trauma is held too right yeah yes i i've learned a lot even with working with certain healers like every time it would always come over here the even if i

still do meditation sometimes i get a stomach ache and it's like what isn't what wasn't healed right immediately was like, I think, I didn't think, I know that I had to go through this and I had had radical acceptance of this eating disorder and not find more shame and guilt around it because my purpose is to help other people. And it was something that just came and like, you know, because when you're going through any kind of addiction, the first thing you're like, what the fuck? Like, why me? Right.

Like, oh my God, I have to deal with this. Well, I had to deal with this to really be absurd. and be really show like fully show up for other people turning passion pain into purpose totally and you know even even early on like in when I started teaching fitness I was still I think I was still relapsing even during that which was like this whole freaking other shame spiral of um what's it called like imposter syndrome and and then you know I never I never even wanted to be open about having you need or while because of course you're in fitness you've been eating your short and I'm like no no but I swear, like fitness saved my life.

Like, it literally, like, talk about that detachment. Like, it's what brought my body and my mind. Like, hello, click. Like, it was like a Lego piece. So I owe my, I really feel like I owe my life to movement. It is literally my medicine. Within boundaries, right? Within boundaries.

You, I will never forget when I meet you in Brooklyn. And you'd be like, yeah, so I taught two classes today. And then I'm going to go lift. You want to go do yoga after. I'm like, Jamie, how is your body functioning? And it shut down, trust me. I had a feeling I was like, that's not a sense. No, I mean, there's so much we can talk about, like, got all and on.

But when I work with clients, it is, it, I smile half the time because I can genuinely say I've been there. I get it. Now, let's work on the tools to a, like really truly move forward to maybe like find more days without relapse because that's what it's about. Like how long can I go and also gain peace? Because I think at the end of the day, like, sure, you could tell an alcoholic to stop drinking. But like, it's like whack and wool, right?

If you have this addiction thing, like you put one thing down. Like, honestly, even me. Like I put drinking and drugs and pills and all this down. Well, then here, boom, the food and the body image stuff popped up. I put that down and it was like, oh, well, overachieving might have popped up. You know, so it's a game of whack and wool. How can I just create peace among. all of it on a day-to-day basis and God knows every day is going to be different.

So that is like my driving purpose and force through all of this. Nine times out of 10, sure, we start hot and heavy with the food in consultations. But then like week by week, it's just like, so how's the food stuff? Oh, no, it's fine. Yeah. But all this other stuff. And it's just I think my favorite part again, like teaching people like come back home and and go back to that, to the connection of brain and body

because from my experience, the reason why I was always acting out is because I did not want to connect. I did not want to feel what was going on in my brain and my body. Like, I can tell, we've never, I've never even shared, like, horror stories of, like, where and how of binging and purging because, like, it just was so out of control. Yeah.

So out of control. I always knew that it was not great. Like, I knew that there was stuff, but I think I was so in my own shit. Like, I was so. So deep in my woes me story of like, I need only been an experience in this. And no, we're not snowflakes.

Exactly. You just learn you're not a fucking snowflake. No. And also, you know, I'd use the cop out of like, well, at least Jamie has a partner, you know? And it's like, yeah, that was easy. That was an easy cop out to, like,

not have to do what I needed to do on myself. Oh, I used to be, like, envious of alcoholics when I would go to the meetings. And like, at least you can just stop drinking. I can't just stop eating. Right. You know, so it's like, perception. Yeah.

It's just, you know, the grass is always greener. But again, like, when you. keep failing and you keep learning and then you keep moving on from this right like you like you said you know turning your pain into purpose it's what and out now after everything after everything that you've been through and everything what's your current relationship with food like how do you how are you able to now go from like and i hope that as a story that anybody right now who is in there holding their bag of chips while they're listening to this shaming themselves for doing so yeah i hope that you can learn and hear somebody who has been there times 10 times 20 on the floor dealing with this,

crying, pain, and can literally turn that around and at the very least learn how to live with it. Yeah. Now, I mean, as you were even just saying, like, crying, like, I, it just brings up, like, I mean, there was, it was years of ups downs, ups downs. I would be naked in the shower, crying on the floor. Ashen would be sitting at the, like, just, you know, toilet clothes. I'm just like, I can't do this anymore. I cannot do this anymore.

And then I'd get two good days and then there I was again, you know, like whatever it was, head in the toilet or all of it. I think it was getting really real and honest. And again, like I do believe there are variant degrees of this, right? And I'm very open with my clients when I tell them like, okay, it sounds like you're just having some misinformation or you're having an identity crisis with you and food and body. But we can like clean it up and move on. And then there's some people, which I can, I do consider myself one of those where this runs

deep. Oh yeah. To the point where it is neurological. It is there is something wired funky. And I say that because like I know I've had, I've just jumped, right? And even, you know, over abusing many a thing. And then it lands on, sure, this one thing. that's applicable to us at all times, all day of food.

Now, it's going to obviously depend client to client. And this is why I really love doing what I do. I truly believe in bioindividuality. I believe if, like, if you just are going to sit there and look up different diets on Instagram and listen to what the other person is saying, like, you are just going to keep failing. And honestly, I think that's why the shame thing keeps happening these days. Yeah.

Oh, I'm going to try keto or, oh, I'm going to try carnivore. I'm going to try vegan. like we need to get to the point where we're actually listening to ourselves, right? And listening to where are you at in this moment with your body, your mindset, your hormones, this, that, the other, your digestion. And then we can take the stocking off your head and start to see clearly. So that's kind of how I landed to my relationship where I'm at with food now. I really do look at it as this is either my food or it's not.

Does this bring me peace? Is it going to create more noise in my head? Because honestly, all I want to do is fuck the noise. I cannot do the noise anymore because if I take the noise, then I don't show up for life. Yeah. So my biggest question, and I tell this to took my clients all the time, is before you even pick it up, if you can take that second to be like, how is this going to make me feel? Because if I wake up in the morning and I ask myself, how do you want to feel today? I want to feel energized.

I want to feel clear. I want to feel present. Those are like huge for me, right? Am I making choices throughout the day through each meal to get me to feel like that? Yes or no? It's that simple. And that's where like I, listen, this is not easy. This is not a fluffy work.

You know that. And I'll call people out straight up. Okay. And again, it's not even to shame yourself or to shame them. It's just to bring awareness. Like, do you see how you're choosing to not feel good? Well, why? Right?

Like, why do you, why, or are you going back to that same old, well, the devil I know is better than the devil? I don't know. Right. That I've done a million times over. I know that that piece of whatever is not going to make me feel good, but I'm going to tell you, I'm going to goddamn do it anyway. Why? Because feeling like shit is pretty comfortable. And you know, it's a fun reframe I had, especially probably for clients that you deal.

Why do I keep doing this? Why do I keep doing this? And it's like, Brit, so my neurotherap science friend. Habit. she actually gave me a great reframe and she was explaining why why questions because it's like when you think of why why like Jamie why did you do this

I'm fucking no no no why but she was like think about it she was explaining how she worked with children and like they lost their mothers and you know like young age and she was like I'll never forget this kid said but why did my mom have to die from cancer and she stopped and she was like what else are you asking me

and so she was like you know what I realized we need to replace why with I don't like why did my mother die of cancer doesn't really do you think the kid needs to know why I don't like that my mother died of cancer. And then, but that, like, so if somebody comes to you, Jamie, why do I eat all this? It's like, I don't like that I do this. And then you're like, great, let's see what else is unbeak?

It's shame. I also, yes, I also really, a big one. And I would say in the last year I had to dive into. And I think, anytime something that you don't like, right, that happens to you, you have to, you can choose one of two mentalities. You can rise above and rise with it, right? you can be a victim, right? So, sure, I could envy other addictions

because it's easier to put down. But to me, my thought was, well, this is, why is this happening for me, not to me? That was a big reset, you know, and it can go, it could be anything, like literally anything. If you change your mindset, this hard time, this good time is happening for me. Oh, yeah.

Not to me. Then that right there, like, okay, well, sure, you can ask yourself, like, why do I want to binge? Why do I, like, why do I just keep binging? Why do I just choose to do it? Okay, well, what's the other? Why is more so that nudge happening? What else do you need to look at?

Listen, you know, whenever people get sick or they get injured, nine times out of 10, the end of the conversation will lead, you know, it was kind of a blessing in this guy is because I had to slow down. Yeah. You know, it's because there's always a reason. There's always that this is why it happened for you. Yeah. I think of my ex, you know who.

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. I think about that entire situation. It had to happen for you. It had to happen to this day. People ask me all the time like, don't you regret it? I'm like, oh my God, no. That's the, I, if I, if you were in front of me, after flicking him off, I would thank him.

I would thank you so much for everything that you put me through because I would never be where I'm at if you didn't do that. If I didn't do that, if we didn't have this dynamic. And I think victimhood, I've talked about that all the time. Yeah. We've got to eventually stop. And it's the same, that's why there's so many parallels between these two worlds of, you know, that, that, like, I'm trying to tell you and that fucking avoid it. And that guy did this and that guy did this. And it's like, hey, man, yeah, we can keep walking around saying, what is everyone keep doing this to me. It's like, and you know what the other question I'm going to go back to is then why do you keep allowing it? Because it's like, what we allow is what we're going to persist. So if I have a vision in my head and my reality is not matching it, there is a grave disconnect in either what I believe I'm deserving of, what I believe I'm worthy of. And I think when it comes to food especially, And when I think about the shame, especially with some of these beautiful questions that were submitted, you know, why, like when I feel the shame and what can I do, it's like maybe for the first time do something that feels so foreign to you. And this is going to sound crazy. But maybe you could see if you said, like, I remember once we got into a fight and I kept saying, Jane, how old do you feel? And you feel like, I'm talking to you from now and I'm talking to you from now and I don't have any issues with you. And then a couple of minutes later, you scream. And you're like, I feel like I'm 15. And I was like, there you are. That's where you went back to. And that's okay. But if We, in that moment, you're grabbing the food and you're shaming yourself.

If you can ask, how old do I feel right now? And if you have a little girl saying, you're not listening to me, there it is. If you can maybe say, I am so sorry I've ever shamed you. I am so sorry. I love you. And I am so sorry that I brought shame because that's what I was taught. Yeah. It's so powerful.

I mean, food, it's just, it's such, again, it's a very tricky relationship to be clean on, unclear on because it's sexy, it's emotional, it's bad, it's good, it's all the things, and you need it for life. You can't just not do it. But again, my basic principle and philosophy when I immediately start working with someone is if you want a clean, clear head, what do you think your food needs to be? Totally. Because it is an automatic correlation.

Now, I've been called, oh, well, you're still feeding into the, and it's like, no, no, no, I'm not feeding into eating disorder. Let's look at facts, right? There are chemically shifted and changed and, you know, modified foods out there to make you feel a certain way, right? There is literally neuroreceptors in your brain that will light up. And what? You think these companies are larger and larger and larger because they're pretty?

No, it's because it's making you feel a certain way that you feel like you need more, more and more. So that's like the basics of that. But then there's, you know, will you, well, I still have a client that's like I'm still binging even on my, my good clean food? 100%, which is then when we start talking about like, well, what, what emotions are we not? Right. You know, what's the underbelly?

Facing and that's when it gets into that. But first and foremost, yes, a bulk of the conversations in the beginning will be about the food and like learning how to properly say, well, you're a blood sugar because guess what's a fat? And we had a conversation with that recently. hey, it could be the smallest shift because if that's off, your anxiety is through the roof. 100%. Since I've cut, now I've started to do something.

I mean, you knew me. I was a six-year-old that loosened a grocery store. I know. I always would joke in there. I'd be like, she eats dinner to get to dessert. That's literally it was on my dating profile. And I still like, I love dessert, but I have a different relationship now with dessert. It's no longer like, I used to.

I'm finding, you know, I am a servant of quality. Yeah. I used to be addicted. I used to be addicted. It didn't matter. It didn't matter anything. But why? Why? Right?

Like, it was the, what do they call it a sugar high? You wanted to feel high. You wanted to feel good. And there's a little drug dealer in your brain. That's like, oh, this is so good. I want it. I want it. And then when I stopped, when I went to, you know, when I cut all that stuff.

And when I introduced it, like, I didn't like it as much. And now I've noticed even recently, like, I asked myself every time because I go into our pantry and like, every time I go in, I'm like, do you actually want this, though? Yeah. I'll stop myself. And I literally close the door. And I'm like, I don't want this. Like, Sabrina, you're just doing this because your mouth is bored right now. and you want something.

I'm like, so I'll get a straw and just like chew on it or something. I love that, but I also love asking like, what are you looking for more of? Yeah. What do you need more of? You know, and like,

like I was going back to early in recovery, like when Ashton would leave the apartment or whatever, like I was fed. I had dinner. I wasn't hungry. But it was like, what did I need more of? Like, I probably needed connection and I didn't want to be, you know,

or whatever it was. And it could have been connection with myself, but I didn't, hi, I didn't want to be friends with myself at the time, right? No, but food and anxiety play a big part together. Like for me, my anxiety is significantly decreased. I'm significantly more aware of my anxiety. I'm more aware of how food interacts with my body because Ryan's such an incredible cook.

So I like don't even have to, everything I know that he's putting in is good for me. And like he's anal retentive about it. So I know. And I've, my body is looking better. I'm working out less, but I'm in better shape. Yeah. I've lost like my love handles that I always struggled with. I'm like, that was sugar.

The fat in my thighs. That was sugar. And it's now when I can look at it. it as, yay, it's not like I've earned it. I don't want to, I don't like to bait things like that. But when I look at it as like you said, quality, I'm like, ooh, that's a lava chocolate cake from one of the best pastry chefs at a restaurant. You better believe I'm having that. Yeah. Versus I don't need the McFlurry that like I don't even like anyways, it's going to make me feel like shit. No. And, you know, I could easily talk out of both sides of my ass because I do

believe both where if you, you could have the best diet in the world. This is anything. I've seen people, you have the best diet in the world. Like to the point where I'm like, so what do you really want to come to me for? And then I, you know, then we dive into, well, but okay, so whether it's someone who I also have like, you know, quote unquote regular clients, right, who are just, hey, listen, like, I want to eat better and I want to have like, I want to make sure I'm, or, you know, obviously I deal a lot with like fitness folks, right? And accountability. And I want to make sure with that. And accountability as well, having somebody that you can be accountable. And that was, that's the other thing. And that's why I love what I do. Like, I am your kind of, I am your

cheerleader. I am your accountability buddy. But the other part, you could have the best I and the world. But if you are constantly in that I'm going to talk negative to myself and shame spiral, like it is taxing your adrenals, your cortisol. And what happens with that? When you're in constant fighter of flight, your body is on alert all the time. Guess what? It's not going to let go of. It will not let go of weight. It will not let go of gut issues. Like you're locked up all the time, all day. And it's like, yeah, good luck. Well, and it too, it's like, think of like, I remember Masha telling me, and she was like, if there was a tiger, you're in dysregulation. Right.

If there's a tiger, she's like, do you think you're going to be focused on how hungry you are? Or maybe that you want to eat something now? She's like, that's the last thing. So your diet's going to be fucked up. It's so insane how many layers. Now, imagine your own thoughts and patterns and self-hate. And I'm saying that because that's literally what I went through. Like, I guess I didn't realize.

Like, I hated myself. I hated myself. I think I hated myself for how I treated my family. You know, I hated myself for the things I would. I wish I did and could have done. But then again, like, I started to find peace when I realized, like, all of that had to happen for me, right? Not to me.

Like, to up level, right? To be a better human, to have more compassion, to look at all aspects of life with just a different lens than, unfortunately, like, the shit we had to kind of go through. But, you know, that's where we are. It brought you here. Jamie are. So, God, this is, it's funny, because before we. we started. I was like, yeah, what don't I know? Like, what don't I know about my own sister? And it's like, oh my God.

I remember Ash even when he came over and he was like, there's so much you don't know. And he was like, it's going to be. But like, I'm excited. This is one of many. Like, we'll have you back. Yeah, I feel like. I would love to talk about more because I think another part and maybe we it's like, part two, with this, with this disorder, with this, whatever, listen, anyone out there, what do you say to yourself, yep, I have any needness order or no, I just have patterns of disordered eating, I hear you, I see you, and I want you to know that this is an ever-evolving and changing thing. And also, we are only as sick as our secrets. I think that was, that was a very big part of, I love that. I think why I, I probably stayed in the same shit spiral that I was in for

a longer. I think I could have pushed through recovery faster with two things. One, not being so shameful, not being so secretive, right? And then the other one of like, I wish, not oh, I wish I had a me, but I wish I had someone there who had gone through it and that I could look in the eye and be like, oh my God, you get it. Yeah. Like, thank you for calling me out and being like, my God, she knows exactly how to finish my sentence because she also used to walk around Whole Foods and go upstairs and puke. Oh my God.

Like, she's not just judging me because she went to school and learned about this, but she's never. So if there's someone out there for you to talk to, whether it's a friend, a partner, or you want to message me like whatever. Just say it out loud. Yeah. It loses, and that's something thing. The more you talk about it, the more power it loses.

It cannot hold you so hard if you're calling it out. Right. If you're showing it's the same, it's the same stuff with dating. It's the same with all of this. And it's like, well, it really is incredible how there's so many, it really brings it back down to like, what are the core wounds here? You're like, what are we running from? What are we hiding from?

And it's like, yeah, if you actually just say it and you're like, oh, fuck. What also you do? you go from the amygdala. I've been learning about neuroscience. Yeah. And you turn the prefrontal cortex on when you can even just name it. I'm anxious.

Wow. Yeah. The power. Like, you're like, I'm actually fine. Yeah. You know, yeah. Like that would have you said.

I mean, like, oh my God, I think I'm sick. And I'm like, no, I'm actually fine. I think I'm just anxious or whatever. You just normal. Get it out. Yeah. Jane, thank you again.

We're going to have you back for. Love you too. We'll have you back for a part two. And we'll, once this is out, then we'll get more feedback. But in the interim, where can people find you? Where can people find me? I actually just opened up clients.

Again, I have some spaces. So I have a stand store. You can book any kind of one-on-one consultation with me. And then I'm on Instagram at jamie.z. Truly, any questions, comments, anything anyone needs. Like, I am here to help. It's like what feels good. And that'll all be linked in the show notes.

So everybody can find that. Thanks. Jane, love you. Thank you so much for coming on. Okay.