The Sabrina Zohar Show - 69: Codependency and getting back with an ex with Mark Groves and Kylie McBeath!

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Sabrina sits down with Mark Groves and his partner, Kylie McBeath, for a conversation on their dating journey, which leads them from breaking up to finding each other again years later. When they first parted ways, they were confronted with the logic behind why it had to end and what they each had to work on. After their closing ceremony, a collective decision to end the relationship with a series of questions and reflections, they each worked on addressing their codependencies and why their relationship was not serving them as individuals. Healing involved figuring out what Kylie began with sourcing from men or a relationship with Mark. They both reflect on the series of tools such as somatic therapy, financial competence, and creating a safe space for feeling a range of emotions as individuals and liberation that brought them back to one another. Snag Marks book HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work Podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hello from the world of YouTube. There are some of you guys that are watching me, some of you guys are listening, some of you guys are doing both, and I am so here for it. I'm so excited, guys. We finally got the studio set up. You guys asked for video. We gave it.

So please follow along, do the work podcast on YouTube. I'm also adding in long form content every week. So you get more videos already more than you get on fucking instant and TikTok. and speaking of which, don't forget to follow along there. Do The Work Podcast on Instagram, Sabrina.zohar on Insta and TikTok, because who knows if TikTok's even going to be around still, so yay. Guys, this week we have somebody very, very special. We have Mark Groves and his wife, Kylie Macbeth. I have been watching Mark for about four years now, like been a fan, been following along, and to be able to call him a friend is, it's just a dream come true. And he's just such a

fucking legend. Love him so much. Kylie is amazing. And they share with us their journey about breaking up and getting back together. And I think you guys ask about that all the time, as well as their new book, Liberated Love. And what that even means to liberate yourself from codependency and finally be able to have the love that you deserve. So guys, grab his book. It's out today. Grab a copy. Grab a copy. By the time you listen to this, wherever from today on, it'll be out. You guys are going to love it. And as always, guys, thank you for everything. Please don't forget if you're on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Google, wherever you're listening, please, please leave a five-star review if you think it's worth it. Write the show. Follow along. That way auto downloads. It helps more than I can explain.

And guys, if you need anything, link in bio, my new course is out. Ah, the foundation course is out. I'm so excited. It's an eight-week course. You've got over five hours of content. You've got meditations and her child meditations, journal prompts, worksheets, the book, the whole shabang. So I'm so excited. We spent four months working on this bad boy. It has been a labor of love, but it is out. And the reason we have it drip out is because y'all don't need to just ingest more content. Y'all need to learn how to implement it too. So we have that and Supercast is out. So we have our bonus content. You guys get ad free and two bonus episodes, sometimes even three a month, which is super exciting. So guys, please, please, everything will be in the show notes. Support our sponsors if

you're listening to it on regular feed. And if you're not, thanks for being a supporter on Supercast. We love you. So guys, without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it, shall we? Guys, I am excited as an understatement for right now. I am. beyond excited right now for the two guests that we have for this week's podcast because one of the two guests, the second guest I am newer to, but one of the two guests has actually been like a somebody I have followed for about five or six years prior to even like us being in like at least four or five years, something like that, many a moons that I have been following this person. And I am just so excited to have him and his partner on. So for without further ado, guys, welcome Mark Groves and Kylie Macbeth on the podcast. Welcome to do the work. I'm just so fucking excited to have you. Oh, man. I'm so excited to be here. I finally found someone else who uses the F word, maybe a little more than me. This New York girl loves to sprinkle it in everywhere she possibly can. No, we're excited to be here. So excited. Thanks for having you. Of course. And I'm super excited. You guys have

a new book that just came out. So before we even dive into all of that, can you guys both, I would love just if you could introduce yourself to the audience for anyone who doesn't know you and share about this exciting new book that you guys have that I am actually reading right now. Yeah, we are new parents and in many ways. We birthed a baby last year, so I'm a new mama, and that's kind of been where a lot of my consciousness and time and energy has been orienting. And in addition to that, shift into motherhood, the proud author of the book Liberated Love and doing that work alongside Mark and inside my own professional containers with women to help them heal from codependency and breaking free from patterns that keep them small, stuck, and stagnant. That's why I'm here to help women remember

who they are and take up more space in the world so that we can heal this planet together, yo. I love that. And my name is Mark Groves. I am obsessed with understanding human connection on every level. That obsession really focuses mainly on romantic relationships, and that's because I find that that is the magnifying glass to the things that we don't do well. And really all that comes back. So the book, Liberated Love,

is about releasing codependent patterns and creating the relationship you truly desire. And so much of what we do relationally really falls into the categories of codependency. self-erasure and self-abandonment and also identifying ourselves as being broken or a problem. And so the book is really a path to walk people through that. And it's also an overarching path of Kylie and I's own journey along with client stories. And so it's part memoir, but then also has tools and exercises and all the things. I love the book. I'm personally, I'm like my Kappa halfway

through. And I like being, I love the way there's the mixture of the clients and being able to see somebody else's, but then also you guys having your personal experience because that is definitely something that probably an overwhelming amount of people, especially on the socials when I was asking, like, what do you want us to talk about? Is really that you guys have such a specific and special journey that is not exactly the norm. Like, I know that you guys were together and then you were not together and then you got back and now you're married and a baby and the book and it's like all this amazing stuff. And for me, like I know at least in my journey like codependency is something that I was literally raised with that. Like I saw my mother literally could not be without my father. And it wasn't

because he was this amazing guy. It was because she literally didn't understand how to have her own sense of self and people pleasing and all of those. So for me, like, I wasn't a codependent relationship where if he said jump ice out how high, like my emotions and moods were dictated by his emotions and moods. I was okay if he was okay. And like I even remember just that panic and that anxiety of like leaving the house to like go run an errand, something very normal and mundane rushing to get back because it's like, no, no, no, I have to be with this person because that was my baseline. And I really kind of wanted to dive in a little deeper because I'd love to know you guys kind of went through this liberation and this transformation and your relationship

took a complete turn. But like, what was the before the, the break, the after? I'm curious about your journey of when you guys started to where you are now. And like, I have so many more questions, but let's just start there. Well, you want to kick it off? Well, we started very codependent. I'll just start there. Without even realized that we were stuck in codependent patterns, they were old. Like you said, they were our original imprints from our core relationships with mother.

For me, that was like, if he's okay, I'm okay. and just continually oscillating around his consciousness. And then another big piece of separating from myself was I actually didn't trust myself. I had a dream early on in the relationship. And in the dream, it was, I had a dream of a burning house. And the message that came through was like, it's time to go. And I was like, no. I woke up from that dream and I was like, terrified.

Because I was like, what does that mean? Is this my trauma coming up? or is it really time? Is this my soul talking? And I was terrified to listen to that message, to explore it, to dig deeper into it. And so I just kind of pushed it out of the conscious, my conscious awareness. This was about six months into the relationship. But that message and dream stayed with me until the very end of our first relationship.

And that's kind of how I lived in relationship 1.0, very split, of not actually fully being there and being able to be fully there. I had this looming, I have to go, or this isn't right, or I'm not individuated, or I don't trust myself enough to actually be able to choose this fully. Because I'm afraid that if I actually go all in, the same thing that has happened previously, which I was divorced previously, will happen again, which is if I go all in, then I'm going to lose myself and then I'll just blow it all up again. So it was like a tiered down version of what I had previously experienced, which is, I'm not sure I can go all in. Yeah, which was a perfect match to my wound, which was that I was perpetually in relationships

with people who couldn't choose me fully. Or I ran from people who really could. And that is in part due to childhood patterns, but also from betrayals that I experienced in early relationships. And so, you know, mine was that if I do choose them, if I go into relationship, if I find someone who could show up for me, I might then get betrayed. I might lose myself. And in essence, I lost myself because I was in relationship with someone. I thought I had really at that point when Kylie and I met, I'd done so much work on recognizing that I was afraid to receive love.

Like, I was conscious of that. And I laugh now in hindsight because I just entered another very much smaller version of all the other ones, which was she was healing from a divorce. Here I could help her. I had a whole business around supporting people. I monetized my codependency. And then here I was in a relationship with someone who needed support. That's not what I knew going in, but energetically, you know, that it's a match. And also recognizing that once someone tells you they're not sure and they might have to go, there was some sort of, there was an unheeled part of me that was like, oh, okay, well, that's still a match then. And so, we spent four years figuring out that that wasn't. So a nice, just enough time to cook,

you know, Sabrina. So part one was four years that you guys were together? Or yeah. Okay. And because it's so interesting. As you both are talking, I can relate to both of you. Because like I understand Kai, you're that like fear of because it's like there's that anxious avoidant dynamic playing out of like one person Mark being like, oh cool, a challenge accepted. Like it's a match. Let me let me make sure that this works. And Kai being like, yeah, no, okay, I'm starting like I think I need to go. like this, but what was the basis of both fear? Fear and that I get. And it's funny because when I met my partner had an amalgamation of both. Like when I first met him, I had that same, that thought process of, wait a minute, I now have to receive love. Like that feels uncomfortable

to me that I don't really understand. I'm so used to running after love and having being rejected someone trying to give it to me. But then kind of, Kai, your thoughts of like, oh, but maybe I should go because I'm just going to get hurt if this happens. And I had the breakup text. I had it written up. And the day I was going to send it, I was like, no, it's like something in my gut. I was like, you know what, let me just give it a little bit of time. And pushing through that, it was really fucking, it was hard. It was to this day even. There are some days where I'll be like, did I make the right choice?

And you're like, yes, you did. You have to be a fucking adult and be okay with the fact that like, if you lose somebody, you'll be okay. And if you have someone, you're okay. But I was curious to ask, like, okay, so you guys had this relationship of four years. And I, because I think there's the reason I really kind of want to understand your dynamic so well is because, one, you guys are super inspirational to, I think a lot of people who are in a relationship that might not be serving them doesn't mean that it's not their person, just means that maybe something needs to happen in the interim. And so many people ask questions about, like,

when do you know it's the right time to go back? So, like, I was curious, how did it end with you guys to where there was space to potentially get back together? Man, our ending, really that set, the bedrock or foundation for being able to come back together. We didn't know that because when it ended like for me it was over like I had no interest and I was done with that pattern like I knew I'd spent a lot of years working on it and I finally got to the place where I was like it was enough and the idea of going backwards that I created so much content from that space because I started to really be like you know so people would be like how do you get back together with your ex I'm like wrong question you're you should never have to get back together you should have to meet them

moving forward. They should be on the path of your own growth, your own healing, and that they're doing the same. And if you're doing that anyways, you won't care if it's them. Like, that's actually what ends up happening. Great if it is, but also great if it isn't. And with us,

we, the ending, we did a closing ceremony, and that was something neither of us had ever done. I mean, I heard about it back in the day with Gwyneth Peltro, and I heard that they did a conscious uncoupling. But I I was like, we hadn't had a conversation in person just due to logistical reasons. And so I said, hey, like, we really should come together.

Do you want to do a closing ceremony? Which I don't even know where I got the idea from, but I Googled it and other crazy people do this too. And I put together questions that I thought would be powerful to work through, although terrifying. And I sent them to her and she's like, okay, this sounds right. And so we went, we did it at our house. And I pulled up in the car and I remember thinking, I don't want to do this. And then I thought to myself, do I not want to do this because I genuinely don't want to and I'm not ready?

Or do I not want to do it because the person who can do this doesn't exist yet? And I was like, ah, the answer is definitely the second one. Like, shit. So got out of my car, went into the house. And we lit a fire and we played songs that were both like important to us and had context to our relationship. So we had a playlist. And it was like the most powerful experience. It's probably the most painful and most loving experience I've ever had because it was almost like you're grieving all the times you'd

didn't do this. You know, at the same time that you're experiencing this, you know, and Kylie and I at that time had deep love for one another and it was hard to let each other go. It was against our logical mind that we needed to end our relationship, but we knew on a deeper level that it had to. And the questions were, what was your favorite memory? What are you grateful for? Yeah, what were you grateful for and appreciate about the other person and why? And then the last one was, what do you hope for the other person? And that one was hard to answer because you're like, I hope you find your person, you know?

Yeah, you're like, we were honest about that. But the first two were gutting. Yeah. And we also, you know, to get more context to the burning house, which was a dream that followed Kylie, but if it followed Kylie, it followed me. So it was something, we ended up buying a birdhouse. Little bird house.

Like a little birdhouse. And then we burnt it in honor of her dream to say, thank you. Like basically taking what she was trying to figure out was broken about her that she had this dream and saying, actually, that was sacred wisdom, that there was an inability for us to move forward in the way that we were. And for me, that really closed it. Like it allowed there to be so much unconditional love. And it was this experience that a relationship can end. and truthfully love still exists, that it wasn't conditional.

And that, I think, just made it so there's safety for us to know. Like, love will never be lost here, no matter what, you know. I've never cried so hard in my whole life, Sabrina. Oh, I got the chills when you talked about the birdhouse. Like that. It was otherworldly. It's hard to really put into words what happened in that house that day. It really is.

It's like, my sound, you know, far out. But it's like, no, that we were. so intentional. And I always tell Mark, I feel like I cried for my one-minute old self. I felt like I went all the way back to the original just stult of separation or pain. It was like, you know what, let's just get it all out. And it was the most cathartic and profound and healing journey or ceremony I've ever been in. So, yeah.

But then that just catalyzed the next part of the journey for us both. I was going to say, because like, I mean, first of all, that's. sounds incredible. Like I wish for everybody that's out there that we could all have a moment to even just like, I mean, I know that I've definitely had X's where it's like, hey, there's nothing wrong with you. Like you're not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. Just the way that we were doing things does not work for each other. And I actually love what you said, Mark, because like my mama's been saying that to me since I was a kid. She's like, no, no, no, you're not getting back together because what you had didn't work. She's like, you're starting new with more information about this person and seeing if now that aligned. And I think that's such a big, because everybody asked, like, no joke. I'm. hundreds of questions. How do I get back? How do I get back? How do I get my ex back? And it's like, to me, that's just gamifying. Like, I don't believe right person wrong time. I believe that the person in your life is in there at the right time. So like, you guys were in each other's lives at the right time. Then you exited each other's lives. And then you came back at the right time. It wasn't like, oh, I'm just going to hold on a photo of Kylie on the wall and she's my person and I'm never going to

because that's just. You're like, there is a pedestal and it has her photo. It's like that idealization, well then just keep you stuck. But I was curious to know personally for you both, what tools were you able to, what did you find was beneficial for working through this codependency and what was like kind of, I guess the first question would be like, what made you both realize like, oh shit, this is what we're doing? And then what did you start to implement that you both found useful? Because I'm big on tools and seeing like what moved the needle for you both to just get to the point where you could have this closure. Forget. what comes after.

Yeah. There were so many tools that I pulled out of the toolbox when Mark and I had our, I mean, just to give some context for the listener and for the previous four-year relationship, we tried everything. Yeah, we did. We were in every book, every psychotherapist, somatic therapy, like, we were trying everything to try to figure out what was in the way. Yeah.

And what was in the way was that it just wasn't the right time. not the right time, but it just, the rupture needed to happen. The rupture was the medicine that we both needed. The ending was the healing. It was the healing. And so I think for step one, like honoring that truth was a really big one for both of us of like, okay, you can leave good things. Yeah. Yeah, it was super liberating to finally, you know, I recognized that Kylie identified as having a problem that she couldn't choose the relationship.

And I remember saying, like, if this relationship requires you to believe you're broken, and then the relationship is not in service of you. And it's definitely not in service of me, but it's definitely not in service of you because this identity is not, it's not true. And so that was part of it was like really starting to, you know, and in the book, we have a whole chapter dedicated to getting right with reality. And that's really what we had to do. Yeah.

And I had to get really clear on what I was sourcing from. mark. Like I was sourcing a lot of safety, security at the expense of myself. And that's really how we define codependency is any relational dynamic where we source safety or security from someone or something outside of ourselves at the expense of our core needs, sense of well-being and our wholeness. And so I had to get really clear, what am I still sourcing from men, from Mark, from these relationships, and what is the cost of me sourcing them from the external world? So for me, I had never had a template of a woman standing in her agency. Yeah. And her full expression of her voice. So I didn't even know that was possible. I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't have my, I didn't have a

somatic template of what that looked like. So for me, it was going against survival instructions to even leave the relationship with Mark, which my survival instructions based off my matrilineal line was stay. Yeah. Stay small, stay quiet, stay complicit, stay, stay where you need to stay. in order to source that safety from someone else outside of you. So for me, the big healing came and being able to create an internal foundation to stand on myself, where I could trust myself, where I could be self-competent. And for me, financial competency was a really big piece in that

of being able to access more agency in life and not rely on external people. So that was one of the big tools that I worked on is I actually hired somebody to support me of like, okay, what do I need to work through to be able to have financial security and safety in my own system. Yeah. Because it's not just financial security and safety.

It's agency. And I didn't know what agency felt like or looked like, nor did I know it was safe. Because I knew how to relate to the world from a small, powerless little girl. Yeah. I did not know how to relate to the world from an embodied sovereign woman.

Yeah. And so a lot of my work was reconnecting to anger. Oh, I love that. And how are you able to, like, if I can just piggyback on that? Because I think anger is an emotion that so many of us feel shame around, right? Like, be a good girl. Like, don't you dare show an emotion. For me, it was always, don't upset your father.

Like, you are the reason that he is upset. So you need to go change and let him be who he is. Don't upset all the men in the house. So anger, I would imagine, probably felt really off weird and there's a guilt and a shame. How dare I feel this. I'd love to know how you were able to work through that and give yourself the permission to say, yeah, I'm fucking angry. Oh, I feel you. I feel you on the, don't rock the boat. This is about, you know, like stuff, all your stuff inside so that we can create external safety in this

environment. For me, I worked with a somatic therapist for about a year because my nervous system was in such deep freeze that I literally did not have the level of safety in my system to even access anger. So I had to work with somebody to move out of freeze. and begin to access my hyperarousal states of fight and flight. And the first time I experienced it, I will never forget the first time I experienced it in a session. I was like, whoa, that is power. Like, it was like aliveness and I could feel the heat running through my body. It was like I could feel my body melting, like my nervous system, my whole being just

melting and thawing as I reconnected to this fire and this anger. And just for the listeners, for context, is how we define anger. is anger is the core emotion that supports us in honoring our limits and our boundaries. Yeah. And it shows up when we have a need or a boundary or limit is being crossed, either internally or externally. And we need that signal to tell us. But like instead of, you know, like even in your example, instead of changing, instead of bringing that anger up and out, what we've done is we've internalized it to control ourselves.

And after I opened the gateway and had the felt sense of like, I'm safe to be in my anger, oh my gosh. Ask Mark, the level of rage I had just was like a tsunami. And I was like, you're pretty mad at the patriarchy. Just go ahead. I'll represent it. And she was yelling. And I'm like, you know, it wasn't about me.

But I knew it was important to have someone who was male who loved her and cared about her, wanted to feel that intensity. You know when you wake up and you realize like a different layer that you didn't see and the impact of that layer on your whole life and on all the women around you, like, when I woke up to it, I was like, I am so enraged.

And luckily Mark was able to hold a really beautiful space for me to just process all of it and be with all of it. Because I was like, we got to clear this out of the field. because if we don't when I wasn't afraid of it I wanted her to have access to it because I needed her to have access to rage

so she could have access to choice because again that comes back you can't you can't choose something if you don't know how to choose if you don't trust yourself in it you know so you need access to anger to be able to draw lines around who you are to when someone violates boundaries

or breaks agreements and you know I remember when we early in our relationship have I had any intensity, because I'm not a yeller at all. But if I had any intensity, she would react and be like, don't yell. And I'm like, I'm definitely not yelling. Like there's about 47 octaves higher that I could go. And when we were in a psychotherapy session, the therapist had said, like, you need access to your own anger.

Like you're, you can't minimize his expression. You're afraid of your own intensity. You can't hold your own intensity. And that was validating for me. because I was like, am I yelling? Like, it's not loud. And then I also felt suppressed. Yeah.

You know, and not being able to speak. So that was a really powerful shift. And I wanted her. You know, that's the principles of liberated love. It's like I want her to have fierce access to truth. Yeah. Because I'm better through it. Like, if she gets angry at me because of something,

she's valid in that experience. I might not like it, but she's valid in it. And there's just really a desire through our relationship that both people really come so alive, you know, that we're continuing to reach our highest potential, but also see where we're out of integrity with what that is. There's something like so special about somebody that you're with holding and honoring space for you to field emotion.

Like I had that where my, I call my partner tech guy, his name is Ryan. We're okay with him having a name now. And so Ryan and we just like it was like one of those days where, you know, like you wake up on the wrong side of the bed. And I was just, it was just like everything was just every tiny micro movement of the morning was annoying me. And something, you know, you get an email. Something happened and I snapped. And I remember just being so angry and like just expressing myself. And he was like, yo, yo, okay, relax.

And I was just, I looked at him. And it's like, that is you six feet under, motherfucker. Like, and I just looked and I was like, in what world has any man told a woman? relax and it's like, oh, you're right. Let me just relax. And I just looked at him and I remember getting upset because he was like, you know, this isn't, you're angry at me and he's like, it's not about me. And I just like popped off. And I just said, I was like, for fuck's sake, allow me to feel. I was like, this is my home as well. I am angry right now. I am upset. And I was like, I am not directing this at you. I was like, I'm not angry at you. And I was just like, but moving forward,

I was like, just give me the space because I never in our household, you were not allowed to show anger or emotion or sadness. It left with my father hitting you or walking. out or you would get punished for even having an emotion. And I remember for me, like, tapping into that, you know, for us in our household, it was scream louder and you'll get hurt. So it was, I've always had my octaves at a certain level. And so now when trolls will come at me of like, you're screaming. I'm like, no, I'm literally just talking to you. Like, this is my baseline. Are you been to New York? Come on. Thank you. It's like, have you been to any fucking city on the East Coast specifically New York goddamn city. But like, it's just, I get that. And I have to now,

people will say you get angry and it's like what I, you know what I'm allowed to get angry. I'm like because you are not allowed to go and dictate how other people need to behave so that you are comfortable. Because that's fucking arrogant and that's entitlement. Amen. Amen. That's the internet. That's the internet. It's like, oh, if you don't say what I want, then you're wrong. If you don't say how I want it, then you're wrong. And it's like, or here's a beautiful thing. I can set a boundary and you can get the fuck out because this is my ecosystem. This is my safe space. And this is me creating a new space of I'm going to be who I am. And if you like it, hip hip hooray and if you don't that's cool there's other people that you can go fuck with same with dating

and i remember like kind of a similar story kind to like you were the first time i was ever in therapy doing tapping tapping tapping was really big for me i don't know if you guys ever tried it and i remember it was after my narcissistic ex where like everything was my fault right of course like i was the worst person and i ruined everything and everything was my fault and i remember tapping and saying i'm just such a piece of shit and my therapist repeating it and then i just it hit me out of nowhere i had one thought and I said, well, wait, but it can't all be my fault. And then I started to escalate. And then I got angry. And it was like, I just, I popped. And I remember her just smiling as she said it. She's like, it can't all be my fault. And I could see it. And then when we were done, she was like,

that's exactly what I was hoping was going to happen. Like I needed, I needed to face those thoughts of like, I'm the worst person and I'm a piece of shit. Nobody likes me. And I'm all of these things. To then look and go, wait a minute, but like, do I actually believe that? Like, do it in my core? Do I genuinely wholeheartedly believe that I'm the worst person to exist and I'm a piece of shit and I don't deserve this? Or is that a protective mechanism because that's just my baseline of going back to let me take accountability of everything because then maybe if I do, it'll all be okay. If I just say it's all my fault, let's just smooth it over. And then you realize that's not being an adult and that's not real life. Right, right.

That level of overfunctioning and hypervigilance is, I mean, people don't realize the physiology. impact of that. I mean, that behavior, which hand up, done it, do it sometimes still, healing always, is that it causes so much inflammation in the body and, you know, the correlations to things like autoimmune and, I mean, all the things inflammation lead to, which is a lot, almost everything. And I think about that you can't heal or even just be in constructive relationships if you can't get to a regulated place. And you won't be able to. to trust your choices in your life. You won't be able to direct your life if you don't have access to your voice. And so you won't feel safe. Like there's this constant desire to create safety,

but it's not true not, it's not true safety because what are all humans always asking, is this safe? And secondly, am I safe to be who I am? But always number one first. And so number two, not often or always. And so how do we create relationships that say yes, yes? You know, and that's the work like a lot of the tools i used in the in in to access anger i didn't have access to anger either that's why i was anxiously attached in a dormant and it was like i needed anger to be able to save myself to pull myself back from leaving myself in relationship dynamics that actually were not um aligned i worked in a men's group a couple men's weekends with the psychotherapist and i remember it was like i was afraid of male anger too because when i was in high school i got attacked

by a gang and I got 45 or 43 stitches in my head. So it was like a pretty severe. I didn't know them. It was not like a reason. I didn't do any. I didn't steal any drugs or anything. Cool. I just got attacked.

And so I accessed anger and rage for the first time. And of course, behind that was a lot of grief that I had not accessed it and left myself in circumstances. But it gave me a different knowing in my voice. You know, it's like whenever anyone wants to access what we call clean anger, you do ideally and contained experiences need to be able to access rage. Because rage is the far extreme and that's usually what we're afraid of.

I mean, we're ultimately afraid of aggression, which is different than clean anger. Clean anger is constructive. Anger is love when it's about protecting you and protecting other people. And so some of that, but also having a men's group was really helpful for me. You know, I started a men's group when we broke up because Kylie recommended I read or do this audio series from a guy named Francis Weller, who's incredible. He's a psychotherapist and calls himself a soul activist. And his work is really about going into the descent. Like, we talk about his work in our book.

We talk about grief. And when I started listening to it, I'm like, oh, she is, I'm going to need to take some people on this ride. I don't know if I can do this one alone. And so I called up a group of guys that I respected and we all did it together. Now we still meet, you know, so four years, five years, six years later. You know, it's wild. But one thing I will say that in that ending that was powerful was one our friends didn't choose, like everyone was loving in the ending.

There was no whose team are we on? Because it was our team still, we just broke up, but we still loved each other. So there was no sides. And that was helpful because, you know, where Kylie had previously experienced and I had, to some extent, exile due to an ending or shaming due to an ending, this was an opportunity to heal that, the community wounds. The second part is that I remember when we broke up, I went to this cabin in Mount Baker, Washington in the woods, which I don't think that's a great idea anymore. I don't think I'd recommend it to people. And I was sitting there. It didn't have any internet.

It did have a landline, which I got to tell you, it was actually. pretty nice to have. And I shut all my tech off for the week and everyone knew where they could get a hold of me on this landline. And my friend Chad had called me and he said, how are you doing? And I was like, I'm not good. And in minutes, he was in his car and drove, whatever, four hours. and came and just sat beside me in a cabin and we chatted. And it was a, you know, we didn't have internet. So we watched old DVDs, which was pretty funny. But that was so, because I think a lot in our endings,

or even just the exploration of ourselves, we're afraid we're going to get lost in the darkness. And it's important to have a tether to that, to light, to say, like, I'm not going to let you get lost there. Like, you can go, explore. Yeah. And the thing I'll say about what you said about the internet, but I think is true about people and what we were talking about in intensity,

is that we try to save people from feelings we don't know the value of. So like if we don't know the value of our grief or endings, we'll try to protect people from experiencing them. And it was the advice I would give friends when I was in my 20s. They went through a breakup. I'm like, let's go get wasted and find chicks, you know, realizing now that's, that's definitely not the answer. It might feel good for a moment.

Yeah. But, you know, yeah. Now, so you guys actually said something that was really important because I think if we're even just talking about like getting back with somebody or like, you know, starting a new, right? Rekindling a relationship, if you will. I'm trying to find the right words here.

But you know what the fuck I'm trying to say. The biggest thing I think the cult, like the biggest aspect here was you guys ended it amicably. It wasn't a huge blow up. This wasn't. You cheated. And then the other person's crime. and then the other person's throwing stuff out on the front yard.

Because I think what a lot of people asked was like, when do you consider even coming back together or having the conversation? And I was curious, like, I'm sure you've also worked with people that have had negative endings. Do you see, like, because like, obviously you guys had that space in between. What was that journey like in between? Like, did you date other people?

Were you single? Was that a month, six months, a year? Like, what was that space in between like? And then what was that moment? Like, did both of you come back cumulatively? did one person. Like I would love to know now that we've understood the first half, that space that I think is so important in between and like what you guys did with it, I think is it's not just time. You know what I mean? It's like what we use that time for? And I'm curious to see when you had the

break, what did that look like for each one of you to then come back to part two? Yeah, I'll just say for the closing ceremony to happen, the closing ceremony is not a place where you share your grievances. Okay. You do that before. So if you have them, like if you haven't cleared out big pain's big. It's hard to do. You can't just sit down and be like, I'm so grateful for you when there's deeply, you're like, I'm not. Yeah. Like there's a lot of things I need to say. So, you know, there definitely is an importance of clearing that sets the stage. And when we came back together, there was healing that needed to occur about trust. But do you want to share about our part of turn? Yeah. So our sacred pause are the time between relationship 1.0 and 2.0

was 10 months. Okay. And immediately after the closing, Sarah, Mark and I put a no, no, no contact boundary in place. Okay. And that was the most loving thing for both of us on our journeys is to just separate and remove any contact so that we could focus on our own healing. And for me, I entered into a man talks where I, for three months, removed men, sexting, not that I did that, but I'm just saying dating, seeking, dating apps, Instagram stalking from my life and enter that intentional container so that I could really examine some deeper patterns that had been at play in my relationships with men. And I was quite shocked, Sabrina, when I entered that container because I was like, my nervous system was like, you're going to die.

Literally it shot up. It was like, you're going to die. You're not going to make it all the other. I I couldn't believe the intensity of what I was experiencing by just choosing to remove men from my life for three months. I was like, whoa, these parts are old. Whoa, these parts are the ones running everything. Like, I need to sit with these. I need to explore these. I need to really integrate these parts so that I can come back into true embodied choice moving forward in my dating life or my relationship life. So I entered into that container, yeah, for three months.

ended up breaking it with Mark because a fear took over from the driver's seat and was like, you're going to lose them if you don't reach out. So of course, I reached out and broke every agreement I had with myself. And then, you know, that one rocked me to my core because I was like, how did I do that? I was feeling so good. And I was starting to really trust myself. And then, yeah, that kicked in. And I'd realized I hadn't fully grieved. the relationship or the potential that we're not getting back together. And so that was that last key for me to fully liberate from our previous dynamic was like, I needed to fully release the idea that we were getting back together.

Oh, yeah. And so that's what I did. I broke the container because I was afraid of losing him, but then I went back into the container and doubled down. Like a savage. Like I was like, no, we're getting to the core of this. We're releasing any cord, anything that's connecting me to him. Like, we're done. And I needed to be done with it.

Okay, so you both thought like, this is it. Like, we're done. We're not getting. I know Mark, you said, like, I'm done. And so you had that moment and you're like, that's it. I'm not. We're not going back. Goodbye.

Yeah. I had that moment where I was like, I can't go back. Like, because it was still that younger, afraid part of like, I'm going to be alone. And I need him. And, you know, he's the one, like all of the narratives that kind of build up in your mind when. Good old Disney. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

When you want to break free from these patterns. And so, yeah, I doubled down, went back into the container. and so much alchemy happened from from me breaking my own container though. I'll just name like a lot of repair happened, a lot of with self and a lot of cultivation of my own self-trust muscle as I went back into the container and completed it and like doubled down and didn't just fall back into shame and allow that shame to take over and yeah, take over and stop me from actually choosing what it is that I deeply desire. And so after going back into the container for another eight or so weeks, I came out on the other side.

And one of the questions I was feeling into is like, I don't need to get back together with Mark, but I am open to exploring what our connection might look like now. There was no like, you know, whereas when I broke the containers, I'm going to lose him. that energy of fear was not present at all. When I asked the question again of maybe there is a possibility for us to explore something, I wasn't attached to the outcome. I didn't need it to happen. And that's when I knew I was liberated when I actually had choice.

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. It's so freeing. It's like I did the same. I went through like a three month after my, the big ex, when we broke up and he lived with me for three months. And I finally was like, you need to get the fuck out of this house. Like I can't handle this. My nervous system, I was.

pins and needles. And I remember, like, the scariest moment was when that door closed. Like, when that was it, like, he took it. We lived together. And, like, he took his stuff. And I remember when the door closed, like, you're excited. But then, like, this overwhelming, like, weight hit of, like, you know, you're on this high of like, yeah, get out. And then you're like, oh, my God, what did I just do? And I went through the same thing. Three months of, like, nothing. Not talking to a man, like, except my family, but, like, no. And for me, who's like boy crazy, which was the first sign of my anxiety. Just like that was really hard, but I understand your journey because like, and for us, though, the difference was like, you guys had a healthy ending and you guys were just two people saying,

we just need to figure some shit out. Me and my ex, it was like, that was not, that was not going to happen. You know, like once I started to do the work and then realize who this person was, that was the big difference for me of, do I want to get back? I had the choice to say, that doesn't work for me. And that person is not doing any work on themselves. On the contrary, that person, hates me, that person's blaming me, that person's taken no accountability. We can't even have a conversation without him screaming at me. That was my moment to say, I have a choice now, and that choice is I am not going to entertain that. But what was even scarier was saying, oh my God, so now I need to be by myself. And it was fucking terrifying to say, what's coming up

in my body and being able to be like, oh, wait, so this is what this feels like? I don't like it, but I'm going to sit with it. So I can completely relate to your experience. And then Mark, I'd love to know when she reached out to you. Like, what was that like for some, for you being like, no, I'm not doing this to all of a sudden getting that message or text or call. Like, what was your journey in this? Yeah, when we had broken, like we originally our no contact agreement was three months. And then we came back together. And that was not the breaking of her agreements that we had dinner.

And I remember after that, we actually had a conversation where like, this isn't, this still is not aligned. Yeah. And then when, when. And she reached out at the end of, you know, her man talks. She was definitely a woman. Like I could feel a difference. I mean, she wanted to chat. So, like, she came over, I believe.

Did you come over? Where did we go? No, this is COVID times, babe. I was in Vegas. You were in Vancouver. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, hey, I'd love to jump. I'd like to explore.

Like to hop on a FaceTime call. I'd like to hop on a FaceTime and explore if, you know, just. Which for me, that was. Check in. Do you see where you're at? I mean, I now had access to know. So it was like, okay, of course I'm open to chatting with her. I love her.

I care about her. And I could tell something was different about her, you know, because the way she communicated was more rooted, more grounded. I could tell she had more access. And it was really coming from this place of like, this is what I know. And I'm open to exploring like it was very direct. And that was not like her.

So I also was terrified of women. So I could sense a little fear and like her ability to choose. And so I was like, okay, yeah, this is on. You know, this is hot. And then she, we from there, had agreement that there was something to explore here. And neither of us obviously were involved in other relationships. So we created a dating container. And, you know, I think for people listening or watching,

whether you're single dating in a relationship, when the book we talk about a sacred pause, which is alluding to the pause we took. But that's really what it's about is creating agreements and about creating a space that's about letting the old thing die and what you want to create from yourself, which ideally, you know, if you're in a relationship, you're either creating it in the relationship or you're not,

but both individuals are actually learning how to fully step into their power. and actually let go of codependent old patterns. And so for us, that container of dating was about, there was a three-month ending to it, the container, and that was where we were renegotiating or like exploring whether it was a fit. So there was the ability, which for me was important, but I think for us was important.

One, we weren't having, we weren't having, I hate using this word, penetrative, we weren't having penetrative sex. I had to use that in the audio book, and I'm like penetrative, penetrative. But we weren't doing that. I feel like I'm in health class. And that was great because that didn't allow our bodies to get like swept up by that. And I often use sex in my past to soothe the anxieties of everything. Yep.

And yeah, yeah, it works great. So it doesn't. And that was important. But what it did was it, it controlled the pace. and as someone who I would instantly escalate a relationship or seek to get some sort of understanding of relational status because I didn't know how to hold the pace. I didn't know it was like, oh, this is a fit when it really wasn't.

And that was clear because our relationship 1.0, it wasn't a fit based on someone not being able to fully choose it. So I was so used to bypassing my own discernment and leaving my body and circumstances that weren't actually aligned, that this container, I didn't know it would serve this, but it actually allowed me when I would say something like, okay, well, we're doing this. And she'd be like, yeah, we're doing a container.

And we're not ready to say this is it. And that was true. I didn't like her answer. But it was true. And I remember if that happened, I was like, oh, yeah, it's not. Like, it's actually not a fit for me either yet. And so that was really healing, having a container. And I think for people listening, it's it's really about getting clear on the agreements that you're creating if you're dating.

And that because, you know, if you go on date one and you're like, let's create a dating container. You're never going to see them again. Right. So it's more about getting very clear with yourself first as to what are the agreements that you have and how you're going to date and relate. If you're someone who gives away the title of the one very quickly, then it's about actually checking in. is this person a good fit for me? Most people who give away that title very quickly, it's my soulmate, it's my twin flame,

all that shit, which I'm not shit, but you know, all the things that make us lose ourselves is like being able to constantly actually be in the moment by moment choice. Yeah. Because if you don't, all you got to do is watch the Tinder swindler

and you'll see what happens when you don't end up in discernment. Oh, man. It struck such a chord in a good way with me because I remember the first, like my dating life changed when I made one grave, like big decision, and it was by having to state what wasn't working for me and what was. Because like, I don't know if you guys, you know,

but remember back in the dating process before you guys had each other, but like when you're dating somebody and it's like the hardest thing is to acknowledge and say, hey, I don't think this person's for me. Because once you plant that seed, you then see them differently. And then your fantasy is gone and you're like, no, no, no, no. And I remember like one guy calling my mom and she was like, you know, Sab, do you really think, and it was the first time I said, I was like, I just don't think he's for me. And then with that, you have to be like, oh, so I'm now caught between this little girl that wants this fantasy and have

somebody come save me. Oh, because he was a big director and he had a big movie. So if he chose me, welcome to dating in L.A. And so I just kept thinking, oh, I'm going to be, you know, if he chooses me, I'm great. And it's like, he did choose me in the sense where like, he liked me. We were wildly incompatible. Like, complete opposites. There was, in hindsight now, looking at the life I have. I'm like, there's no way this would have ever worked. And it was so hard for me to have to be a goddamn fucking adult and say, I don't think this is for me. And then implement that behavior of, okay, so him calling me at 10 o'clock at night, no, that doesn't work for me. And having to put that boundary was really scary, but so necessary. And I can totally relate to you. I used to use my body

as a means to connect to people. Because that's to me, it was I would be, I mean, I hung my whole hat up a long time ago. But in general, like when I lived in New York, I would. I'd be, you know, two, three, got two, three dates a day and like sometimes hooking up with two people in a day, like a guy that left in the morning and then you have a date that night and there's another person sleeping over. And in hindsight now, it took me up until my 30 third year of life to realize, oh my God, the reason I was so heavy with using my body was because that was the only way we were connecting. We weren't connecting any other way. So by that it was, okay, that's my person.

And it's like, girl, you could do a better job with your toy than that guy did with you. And yet you are hung up on the fact that like this guy who doesn't have a job and is a bartender at the bar down the street at 40 years old is like I think we knew but I was your soul name that was my that was my twin flame of course have we seen that documentary um but I wanted to ask when you guys were coming back together because a lot of people asked me I think this is a great question was there a specific like were there questions you guys asked each other was there something that you felt was something that you wanted to see like okay I'm only going to get back if like this is done or like how do you really assess you know

because I think so many people will take space and then come back. I've had that where eight months later you talk and the minute you text, you're like, nothing has changed. How can you actually start to see if that person's implementing, like, true behavior that they say? And do you have any questions that worked for you guys or that you suggest people to ask when they're about to, like, potentially embark on this 2.0? I mean, for us, there, I think for anyone getting back together, there needs to be the exploration. if let's say one person left because the other person had challenges or maybe issues,

like what have you done about it? Yeah. Like there needs to be an understanding of what has changed. Because you'll hear someone when people break up, say, oh, I'm now reading all these books and I'm doing all those courses. Remember that podcast you sent me from Sabrina? I listened to it. It's so good.

But there's not, they're only doing that to get you. Right. That's why it's like, well, complete the course. Yeah. Finish the book. Then come back. because I'm not meeting you in this space where like now you're proving at all. It's not a, there's no trust.

And so there has to be the exploration within each person because there could be different violations of trust. Like for Kylie and I, one of the big ones was when she would say, you know, I'm ready to do this. I'm like, I don't believe you. Like, I don't trust you. You said that for four years that you were in a relationship with a little small print. Like, I'm not interested in that.

And she would say, you're right. I get why you feel that way. And I'm not going anywhere. Then I was like, ooh, like that was everything I wanted to hear. And it was coming from an embodied place, so it was different. But that needed to be repaired over time. You know, it wasn't something that she just said that. And all of a sudden I was like, yay.

It was something that would come up a lot because there was in my body. There was the memory of this, like, I'm no longer willing to experience that. And I think the exploration of like what creating the agreements together and what you need to talk about is going to be very subjective. Yeah. You know? And so I think for for someone who maybe has more of the challenge of using their voice, that is where the container of a conversation saying like the intention of this conversation is to get clear on the things we still haven't resolved from our past relationship. what I would need to know from you, see from you, in order to even consider this and be willing to,

there's going to be feelings that come up. And that's part of codependency is like we're trying to save people from experiencing feelings. We don't, you know, if you're upset, I'm not safe. Right. So can we have these conversations and hold that we, you can't go into the conversation saying we have to get back together. The intention of the conversation is we're going to tell the truth

and we're going to see where the truth leads us. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, I think that was the biggest piece. It's like Mark and I were not hiding anything from each other. If something was coming up in his body, he was bringing it forward. If something was coming up for me, we're bringing it forward. Yeah.

Because that's what we were devoted to in that container. It's like, we're devoted to telling the truth at every cost, which can sometimes be like, this doesn't feel, this doesn't feel right for me right now. Or we're moving too fast. Or we need to explore. Like, I remember one piece that I was really. curious about it in our relationship 2.0 on the question I was kind of living in one of the questions we give to the readers, is this in service to myself, to life, to love? Is this relationship in service to all

of those things? Does it actually make me feel good? Now, that's not to say that we won't be triggered because, of course, we're hurt in relationship, we'll heal in a relationship, we'll deal with the triggers, but is their resolution, is their repair, is their forward movement and integration? But one of the big things was like, are we in alignment with our core values? Like after taking that pause and really deciphering who am I outside of all of these codependent patterns, the mass, the strategies that I've layered on in order to protect myself, like who am I underneath all of that? What really matters to me?

And I had to get so clear on that to be able to even enter into a conversation with Mark because if you're not clear on that, it's so easy to just get swept back up into what everybody else is okay with and doing in our lives. And it's like, no, what are you here for? What do you desire? And that was a big question I was holding. I was like, are you in alignment with my desires? Like, does this match for you? And it was a question that lived in between us. And he had his own desire. So it was like, did his desires match with mine? And it was a living conversation that we continued to feel our way through. And our bodies really led the way, truly, along with the conversations we kept having.

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Saving those children is how we all go home. From Binge All Episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Let me think what you guys did, it also avoids that resentment piece because it's like a lot of people like, how do I get in and not be resentful? It's like by communicating, by talking, by expressing yourself. And it's like even Mark what you did by saying that to her and then Kai, by you being like, I validate that. It's like, that's probably a different dynamic than what you guys experienced. And those are those moments to be like, oh, whoa, wait, maybe you really did implement all of this stuff. it's now safe for me to express myself like let's try this and keep it going and I like that like

conditional trust like I gave you a little let's see what you do with it and then we'll go more and we'll go more because it's like your nervous system also needs time to be like you can't go from like this is over and I've accepted that to now all of a sudden everything's daisies and roses but I think ultimately what was so fucking sexy I think about everything and what I find really attractive is that neither one of you were like you said you were not attached to the outcome if if it didn't work it was that's okay I'll walk away. And there's nothing more attractive. Like, I'm, I find it really when, no matter what, it's like that box theory, which I find is ridiculous of like, oh, if, if somebody puts you in this box that you could do anything to them and they'll still date you, it's like, well, no, that's not

healthy to me. Like, it shouldn't be that somebody can do you. It's a terrible box. Like, I don't want that box. And it should never be that, like, you can do anything and I'm not going to leave. It's like, actually, I have a lot of respect. If you look and say, I choose to be with you, but I don't need to be with you. So I will walk away and be more than okay, but I'd love for you to walk with me if that's the choice that we're both making. That's beautiful because that's saying my feelings you're not responsible for, which doesn't mean you can't take responsibility for how your behavior impacts me. That's separate. But it's saying like, you stay in your lane, I'll stay in mind, let's also create a lane together that values both of us. And one of the principles of

liberated love is honoring each other's path as our own. You know, like being able to recognize that your partner can leave you in any moment. That is a truth. Like, you might not like the truth, but if you can't just accept that as true, then you won't be able to be with the reality that your partner chooses to be with you out of everybody. That's sacred. That's an honor. And we forget about that.

We stop treating our partners in that way. I can't stand those dumb memes on Instagram where they're like, a real man. We put up with, basically put up with anything and would never leave you and would never. And it's like these fantasy ideas that just actually cause disappointment. Now, don't get me wrong, they come from a place of anger. So I get it. And they come from this place of like, let's create absolute rules. But like, it's like that Marilyn Monroe quote that was like, if he doesn't, can't handle you at your worst,

he certainly doesn't deserve you at your best. I'm like, if your worst is that you're an abusive narcissist, I have no interest in your best, because it's going to be fake anyways. But, you know, it's like that, that level of being able to recognize that two people are sovereign humans who get to choose their life, that's actually love, that the container says, what do you want? What do you want to create? What kind of relationship do you want?

The reason relationships end is because they don't have clear agreements at the start. But that doesn't mean in the middle we can't create clear agreements. Most of us just take other people's vows. we're like, oh, that was a good vow. I'm just going to use that one. We used till death to us part and honor and obey for a long time because we weren't being conscious about it. And look what it created.

It was just really the vow that was the words to patriarchy, to self-abandonment. And it's like a lot of us men need to learn how to be with outspoken, powerful women. And outspoken is not even the right word, spoken. Embodied. Right, embodied. Because it only seems outspoken because we're so used to, like little mice because that's what we created by exploiting power.

So, you know, part of our learning is how do I be with a powerful woman and realize that that brings more power to me in the relationship? That it's not a game. You know, any one time, someone's like, should I text them back? What's the game? How do I win power? As soon as you're thinking that way, you're in, you're losing. I'm so over.

Like my, Ryan always says, he's like, stop chalking it up to a fucking bumper sticker. Like, stop trying to make everything fit into a slogan of like, if you want to two, he wouldn't. It's like, so people are chess pieces. Is that all you're telling me? Is like, I can just manipulate and control and how do I do this to get this? It's like, I don't know. You know what I love to do, be myself. And if somebody likes it cool and if they don't, that's cool too, because I love who I am. And with the good, the bad, the ugly, I'm still going to show up as that. And so I am completely with you. I think what people forget is that love is conditional in the sense where like, if I, it's a contract negotiation. My partner

and I are in this contract negotiation of, okay, I act like this, you act like this. Like you said, Mark, if you became an abusive piece of shit who started to bring me down, that doesn't mean I have to just stick around and take it. It's like, no, I can choose to walk away at any moment. And I think that's where a lot of people get hung up, especially with the dating stuff, of like, I don't understand. We had three amazing dates. And then he said he didn't want anything. It's like, because there are no guarantees. This is not, you're not a six-year-old left in a room where your parents are going to leave you, and that's it. You're abandoned. Like, you are an adult. You get to make decisions for yourself. And you get to actually empower yourself to

decide what you also want and what you're choosing. So I hope everybody, because you guys, the day that this comes out is the book release. I'm so excited. Go get it. It'll be linked in the show notes. So of course, everybody can go buy it. Go get it. It's an amazing book. And guys, I'm just so grateful to have had you on. Where can people find you? Because Mark, I know that you are going through a change as well. Kai, you're going to be around on Insta. But Mark, where the fuck are we going to find you? Yeah. So you can find me on my podcast, which you're a guest on too and uh you can find me on youtube and those will be and i also have a newsletter so those will be the places people can find me i've just um i've i've gotten tired of the relationship with

that meta has with its users and uh i could do a whole podcast episode on that but yeah so you can find us there you can find the book wherever you get books the audio book we actually did a we spoke we had a conversation after each chapter they were not playing conversations there were discussions about each And so that's a little bonus on that. And, you know, for you listening or watching, this book, if you follow it, it will completely change your relationships in your life. Like it is, I know it, we know it because we lived it. Like the technology that's in that book, if you follow it, it will completely change

your life. Thanks so much for having us. Thanks, Kai. Where can we find you? Oh, I'm still on Instagram. I'm still there for now. For now. That's the best place to find me.

Yeah, I don't play. Trust me. Mark, you and I will talk offline about that. But anyways, thank you guys, thank you guys so much for being on. And guys, please go get the book. Go check it out. Follow Mark and Kai wherever you can find them. And until next time, guys. Thanks, Sabrina. Thank you.