The Sabrina Zohar Show - 72: Chasing Unavailable Love and Unpacking Idealized Relationships with Matthew Hussey

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

This week, Sabrina sits down with Matthew Hussey and the two delve deep into the complex world of love and relationships, share invaluable insights on the pitfalls of cherishing potential over reality in romantic pursuits. Sabrina opens up about the personal journey that led her to understand the futility of chasing after the unavailable, and discover how tough conversations became the pivotal tool for recognizing genuine reciprocity in her relationships. Our conversation navigates through the intriguing concept of "living in the blue" within text message exchanges, signifying the balance of effort in communication. Matthew bravely parallels chronic physical pain with the emotional toll of being single, leading to a candid discussion about the pursuit of happiness, whether alone or with a partner. Get Matthew's Book 'Love Life' here Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the family and friends event at Shoppers Drug Mart. Get 20% off almost all regular priced merchandise. Two days only. Tuesday, April 28th and Wednesday, April 29th. Open your PC Optimum app to get your coupon. Okay, guys, welcome to another week. We have such a special guest. Please, please welcome Matthew Hussey on the podcast.

Matthew, welcome to the community. And I am so, so honored to have you on today's episode. Yeah, I'm honored to be here. Thank you for having me. Of course. And you have a new book out, don't you? I do indeed. It is called Love Life, How to Raise Your Standards, Find Your Person, and Live Happily No Matter

What. And I am so proud of it. I'm so excited. That is amazing. And I know that you just got married. Like, we're going to talk about all of this. But I just, I'd love if you could introduce yourself a little bit to anybody who doesn't know you.

I know so many people do. But I'd love just, in your own words, like, who is Matthew Hussey? So I have been working with people. in their love lives to help them find love, heal from lost love, and manage the experience and the emotions they feel when they're looking for love for the last 17 years of my life. I began on YouTube at 19 years old, which is insane. But I started making videos to help people create more opportunities in their love lives. and increasingly over time, as my knowledge has deepened, I've helped people understand

how to cope and deal with the current culture out there when they're looking for love and also how to identify what may be some internal obstacles that may be preventing them from finding the kind of healthy love that they're looking for. I wrote a book in 2013 called Get the Guy. which I now in a different time, which was called something different, but such as, you know, is my evolution. At the time, that was the best name I could come up with.

And 10 years later, and half a billion views later on our YouTube channel, I've now written a book called Love Life, which is a much deeper book and designed to be a co-pilot for anyone who maybe doesn't love the dating culture out there and maybe even doesn't love the idea of having to date, but deeply wants to find love

and wants to find love faster, but also wants to understand how to do it in a way that feels better to them so that they can enjoy the process a little more. And frankly, find they're happy enough along the way so that it doesn't feel like they're deferring beginning their life, to the point where they, you know, finally find that person they're looking for. I'm actually really glad you talked about even the evolution because, like, I can totally relate.

I mean, it wasn't that long ago, but like I'll look at even old videos and I'll cringe. I'm like, oh, wow, okay. So that was like a me then to the me now, but that's the beautiful aspect of our journey, of our growth of, like, becoming who we are. It's like, in five years, I'm sure we'll look back and be like, okay, cool. We can adjust some things from then. But I am curious to hear because I know you recently got married. like I'd love to learn a little bit also more about like kind of your journey.

Like were you somebody that were you more to do lead more avoided, more anxious, were you always secure? Like I'd love to hear from a man's perspective what that journey looked like for you and your evolution of being single, then meaning Audrey, then getting married. Like how have you seen things shift? Yeah. I wish I could claim that I lent secure. But I don't, I don't think I can say that. I maybe there were times when I was secure. but anxious was definitely my default.

Although, you know what's funny? I think I had a lot of negative associations around long-term relationships and commitment. And that made me avoidant. But my general, like if you ask me, Matthew, like, what's your, default place that you, a friend of mine who's a psychologist said that when he was at college studying, they made all of the students do an experiment where they looked at where their, where their extremes went whenever they were in a bad place. Did they default to anxiety? Did they default to depression? Did they default to psychosis? Did they, like for me, it was, it's always been

anxiety. That has been my sparring partner for my entire life. So that showed up for sure in relationships where I didn't feel safe. And I think it made me seek out a lot of relationships where I did feel safe because I just couldn't amidst all the other anxieties I had in life in general, it felt like one too many anxieties to like also then, have to manage constant anxiety in my love life. But, you know, I certainly in the book, I begin the book with really a story about heartbreak in my own life where I was very much in a relationship that fueled my anxiety. And that was, that was, I stayed there a lot longer than I should have, which is something that I know a lot of people reading this book will relate to.

I was going to say even people hearing they're like, oh, I guess I can relate to that. And that was actually even something I really wanted to kind of talk to you even starting about is like what is a common misconception that you see when it comes to like attracting your partner or finding a partner? What do you think we really have? I would love to hear like what do you think we have wrong or versus what do you think we have right in this kind of landscape? There is this kind of misconception that if I find this amazing connection, then that's the, that's, that's, that. That's really valuable. And what I talk about in the book, there's a chapter called How to Tell Love Stories. And I talk about four levels of importance in any situation. The first one is admiration. That's where you have someone that you think is attractive, eligible, charismatic, something. And you just admire them.

Now, they may not even know who you are, but you're admiring them. Suffice it to say that level is not very important. Level two is mutual attraction. That's where you find someone and you feel attracted to them, but you also get attention from them. So it's like, oh, it's mutual. There's some connection. There's some chemistry here.

When we find that, it feels like we found the Holy Grail because we're like, I never meet anyone I like, and now I've met someone I like, and they like me back. What could be more important? So that's the most dangerous stage,

because that's when we start to give up our standards because we're like, I'll do anything to make this work. I'll do anything to please this person to hold on to them. But that stage is really kind of worthless if we don't have stage three of level three of importance, which is commitment. Are they saying yes? And too often we find ourselves thinking it's really important, even though they're not even saying yes to us. They're not actually saying, I want a relationship with you. And level four is compatibility. Are you actually compatible? Do you actually work together? There are plenty of people that say yes to each other and then realize they're fundamentally incompatible in a relationship. So I think one of the things we get

wrong is when we're looking for people is we value the wrong things. And the things we watch and the things we, you know, the media that we engage with kind of encourages us in many ways to value the wrong things. I don't know if you recently, did you watch Sabrina the show one day on Netflix? No, but do I need to? It's a good show. Okay. It's a good show. But it's a show that a lot of people watched and it is this intensely kind of romantic story. I won't give anything away because people can go and watch it. But essentially it's a story of this couple who meet or these two people that meet at college and then they have a friendship that like is kind of a will they won't they and it tracks them over time. And it's anyone watching it feels this intense kind of romance to the situation.

But it's the kind of story that makes us value the wrong thing. Because instead of actually valuing what the present moment is between them, which is like, right? Well, nothing's happening. Like they're just, you know, nothing's, nothing's happening. No one's saying yes. It values the story of what it could be. And it becomes like this, I think of these stories in our own lives as like these unhatched eggs that we hold onto and we nestle and we keep warm.

and in a way, in a weird way, these unhatch tags kind of keep us safe because we can clutch onto them and live in the idea of what this thing with this person may one day be, but it means we don't ever have to really go out and be an active participant in our own life. We don't have to engage with a real love life,

with the forward steps and the setbacks and the disappointments and the messiness of it all and the imperfect people that we will inevitably date and even marry. And, you know, instead we get to hold on to this story of if, you know, the egg hasn't hatched, but if it did, oh my God, it would be, you know, what would come out of it would be amazing. But I never have to really prove that theory because the, you know, the, egg never hatches. And I've seen people hold on to those things for such a long time. In some cases, their whole lives. And so when you ask me, like, what have we got wrong and find in the way we kind of like look for people, I think we get attached to these stories of things that aren't actually proving

to have that much potential. But because of the story we tell ourselves, we think they have ultimate potential. And in a TV show or a movie, often bad bets are rewarded. You know, like you, it's like to me, a situation like that where someone doesn't want to be with you, but you're going to go all in on them anyway. It's like taking all the, imagine taking all the money you have in the bank, everything you've ever made, and putting it on like seven on the roulette table. It, it, you wouldn't, no one would do it. They'd be like, that's insanity. Of course I'm not going to do that. And yet, in our love lives, we do that all the time. And our time is worth way more to us than the money we have in the bank.

One of them we can get back, the other one we can't. And yet we will go all in on Red 7 in our love lives. In movies and TV shows, bad bets often get rewarded with everything the character ever wanted. In real life, bad bets are just bad bets. Yeah, my brother's a filmmaker and he'll often say he's like, in a movie, he's like, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And there's a crafting of a scenario.

And he's like, you're not in a fucking movie, okay? You're in real life. And like, I'm not going to lie. Like, I learned that lesson truly the hard way. Like, I dated somebody before I met my part, before all of this, before I met my partner, before I moved in everything. And, you know, in the famous words of Matthew Hussie, I used to live in the blue, okay? I was.

Like, I've been watching you for so long. And I was that girl that, like, you know, you see the door that's closed and you're like, no, I'm going to open it. And it's like, I can. muscle my way through that and maybe break it while also breaking me, but I'm never going to fully open it up. And the guy that I was dating right before I met my partner was kind of that last straw for me, but it was we went away and I left my dog behind. And I remember thinking like, no, no, no, I'm going to this, this is it. And we're going to go away. And it's going to be

great. And this trip is going to be great. And I came away and my dog passed away two weeks later unexpectedly. And he was nowhere to be seen. This guy completely like just, oh, sorry. I was going to watch a movie that night. Sorry, you need me. And that was that moment. I ended up breaking up with him a couple weeks later. But that was that moment that I, like, as you were saying, that came to me of, we don't get this time back. Like, the more that we chase these unavailable partners and continue to slam our heads by saying, but no, but it feels so good when I'm with them. And it's like, you feel good with this person when you're with them because you don't know when you're going to see them again. And you don't know if there's actually going to be a longevity here. And you, because if there's a

grave difference between when I'm not with them, I don't hear from them and I never know I'm going to talk to them. But when I'm with them, it's, I'm cloud nine. It's like, well, there's a grave disconnect. And that big disconnect, I think, is reality, is coming back to the moment to say, is this reciprocal? Does this person genuinely want the things I do? And until, which I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate, until I met somebody healthy with my now partner and was like, oh, oh, okay. So it's not that it should be easy. I don't, that's my misconception. I don't know who the fuck sold this false bill of goods that a relationship is easy and it's

just skipping on daisies and roses and if it's hard, leave. No. What it is is it's consistently one giant conversation. It's having really tough conversations and saying things to somebody that make you feel a little uncomfortable, but you know that the relationship is only going to benefit if you do that. And it's being really comfortable getting uncomfortable and having these kinds of dialogues with people. And it's like, so when I think of that, and then I think of the living in the blue girl, which will go over that because I think a lot of people want to know what I'm probably talking about, that girl that was chasing and going after the unavailable was never going to yield this result because this result meant I needed to have, I needed to ask questions of depth that maybe that person was going to walk away from. And that fear of, oh, I'm going to be abandoned. They're going to leave me. It's like, that's not my father. That's not my mother. This is just some person I met online that I've had two dates with, me asking if they want to, actually have a relationship or not, if that's all it takes to bop out, great, do me the favor.

But it took me a minute. It's like, we have to get rid of the clickbait on the internet of like, oh, if a guy doesn't call you for a day, he doesn't like you. And it's like, yo, where is the psychology and backing of this? What it actually could be is, can we look at the depth of the relationship 360 as a whole and start to assess if this person's actually being reciprocal? Are they actually showing up? or am I hoping and praying and wishing on a star that this person's just going to wake up tomorrow and ask me to be their partner and all of a sudden make a 180?

Because then my next question will be, had that work with your parents. Doesn't really work that way, right? It's like I wished to all my life that my father was a different version of who he was and he wasn't. And so I dated the same versions of that, hoping, if I can be a good girl, if I can change this person. And all that left me doing was feeling worse about myself because it was just a self-fulfilling prophecy that was becoming more and more real. that egg, like you said that I was holding, there was no way I could hatch it because I didn't give birth to it. So there was no control over it because it was just there. The potential of what could happen, like you said, I'm not going to fucking bet my house on that. But I would love

to hear, because I've mentioned it like six times about, like a big thing I talk about is really like the texting and dating because I think that that is a big misconception and a big issue with the anxious folk and the avoidant and da-da-da-da-da-and-and-everything. You've talked about living in the blue for a long time. And can you share with our audience how that changed my world? And I've talked about that in many of videos and referenced you. But can you talk about that dynamic of this pretty much non-reciprocal? Yeah.

Well, it was a kind of fun way of, you know, when you look at your text message screen and you see that it's mostly blue. And what is their message normally in? Is it gray or green? Gray. Great. If you see a sea of blue on the screen and, you know, a little gray peppered in, then it's kind of this very visual representation of this relationship being really asymmetric in terms of the amount of effort that's being put in. And so I started saying, you know,

are you in the blue? Are you the one who's actually putting the most, most effort into this relationship or into this dynamic if it hasn't become a relationship yet. And a lot of us, we, you know, we can find ourselves, one thing I've been saying over the last couple of years that I think is quite helpful to people is imagine a spectrum with pride, ultimate pride on one side and ultimate proactivity on. on the other. Both of these are a problem. Ultimate pride means

screw everyone. I'm not even going to give someone the ability to reject me. You're never going to be able to tell me I'm not good enough because I'm never even going to approach you in the first place. Ultimate proactivity is I keep initiating over and over and over again with no shame and no sense of me paying attention to the fact that I'm always, the one making the move. And being in the blue is kind of you're too far over on that proactivity side of the spectrum. You've taken it upon yourself to try to like almost conjure up

energy from them by putting in more of your own. Now, you can do that for a minute. And I don't, I actually think that can be a good thing. You know, there's too many of us aren't getting resolved. in our love lives because we are constantly mirroring the level of energy and effort that other people are putting in. And because we're mirroring that, we're actually kind of tacitly approving that amount of effort. And we're also cementing that dynamic. So if you say someone texts me every two days and then you go, fine, I'll just text back every two days. It's kind of like you're cementing that dynamic. If you say someone always texts and never calls and I wish they would call, well, by continuously just texting them and never actually going for the phone call,

you're cementing that dynamic. So we have to, at a certain point, decide to be a little more sophisticated, a little more, I want to say advanced in modeling the kind of behavior we want to from somebody else. We have to go from mirroring to modeling. And modeling says, let me think about the culture that I want to have, that I want to create for my love life.

Mitch Album once said, if you don't like the culture, don't buy it, create your own. And it's a wonderful sentence because you can apply it to everything, but if you apply it to your love life, many people hate the dating culture out there right now. You don't have to buy that culture.

You can create your own. But in order to create your own, you have to lead, not follow. You have to model, not mirror. And modeling means leading with the kind of energy you would like to see. And obviously an appropriate amount for where you're at with someone.

But if you want a little more depth, then ask deeper questions or share more about yourself in a way that encourages someone else to share more. If you want more humanity, be more human, be more three-dimensional than the two-dimensional people that are constantly interacting on dating apps. If you want more real communication, then pick up the phone and give someone a quick call or a halfway house, leave them a voice note on their next text instead of texting, back and just give a little more, you know, of a sensory experience to your communication so that this person feels like, oh, a voice, a voice coming out of my phone at me.

That, like, feels a bit more intimate. Maybe they'll leave a voice note back and you've kind of, in a very small way, upgraded the communication. But it takes a little bravery and it takes some leadership to decide that I'm not going to just go along with the culture as it. is, I'm going to be brave enough to create my own culture. I could not agree more than that. It's funny. I left my partner, he hates texting. And so once I tried a voice note and I just got a text, don't ever do that again.

And I was like, okay, noted. And he was like, I will call you. Don't fucking voice note me. And I was like, that's fine. But to your point, it evoked us to have a conversation over communication. And I think what I think the biggest issue that I really see in this landscape, like, we're going to fucking go on, continue on in misconceptions, which I think are important to talk about, is that adage of if I'm, like, and I'm, I'm speaking in heterosexual

norms because I am a woman who dates men, you're a man who has a wife who's a woman, but of course, this is in any field, it's a they situation. I'm just talking specifically, like, in the gender norms of, I'm a woman, I don't do anything. I sit in my feminine and I don't have to do anything. You make all the moves and I just sit back. And it's like, sure, hey, listen, if that's your preferred method, don't worry. Ain't nothing in life for free. So like if you're going to come off like that, who are you going to attract the machismo macho macho guys that are coming in saying, well, I chase and I don't. Eventually that game is going to get really old. Versus it always is really shocking to me when I'll do videos of like, hey, here are three questions you can ask somebody on a first or second date.

And I used all those questions. It's not like I was sitting at home being married for 30 years saying, oh my God, what are the kids these days tacking about? It's like, no, I was in the trenches. I was dating in New York and L.A. Like, I know the schmose. And, like, I remember asking my partner, like, how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? What are things you're no longer willing to accept that you used to in relationships? Like, I wanted the depth in my relationships because I was tired of the frivolity and just surface and tell me about, you know, what, what's your hobbies? I'm like, I don't have any. Like, what else do you have? And I remember my partner, to this day, when people ask him, like, what made you go for Sabrina? And he's like,

the question she asked. She had some. something that I hadn't seen. And what's shocking to me is when I, I guess not shocking. That's not the word. What's a little surprising is when I'll be very upfront of things to ask. And it's like, and then I'll get the responses from people of like, I would never ask that. Ew, that's so cringe. What is this an interview? And I just kind of stop and I'm like, okay. So you want me to just coddle you and tell you up if he wanted to, he would. Yep, yep, yep. Oh yeah. Just keep going with all your bumper stickers that you fucking see on Instagram and just keep making yourself feel better because that means you don't have to have accountability into this.

But if we actually want to empower people to have the relationship that they deserve, that is you are worthy of it because you came out of the womb, not because you are a high value this or because you're that or you have this job, you are worthy because of who you are as a person, then that means, to your point, stop matching energy. Instead of matching their energy, why don't you create the energy that works for you and then see who vibes with that? because that comes from a place of confidence and power and security as opposed to, you know, it's the same shit when I started my career with all of this. Yeah, I could have just parroted what

everybody else said. But instead, I was like, no, I know that there are people out there like me who don't have a community that they feel that they resonate with. Similarly, into going out and dating and saying, I might meet a lot of people that are frivolous. That doesn't mean that I need to water myself down in order to match where they are. That just means I can keep vibing where I'm at or whatever word we want to use, keep staying on the level that I'm at, and then just welcome people into my life that or appreciate that and accept it. And I think that comes from such a bigger place of power and genuine authenticity. And it was like, I was watching a study and they said one of the bigger reasons people don't get second dates is because they're not authentic.

And it's like you feel like, Matthew, I'm sure when you were dating, you could relate of going out where you feel you're like, hey, just drop the act. Like I'd love to just see who you are. I'd love to hear your stories and you smile and you not think you need to be somebody in order to get me to like you because I'm going to like you for who you are, not for that that you're trying to portray to me. You know, one of the things that became clear to me at a certain point was, oh, wow, I myself have been lacking a level of vulnerability in the way that I show up. Like there was, I think I was able to show up. I don't want to paint a picture of I wasn't showing up authentically because I think that actually in some ways I was quite, I was quite good at that. I think and I think that's why over time I was able to build the community I have, even when I was screwing up in all sorts of ways in my dating life. The community I had connected to that authenticity, but I think that even for me, I was not.

always showing up from a very vulnerable place. I think I was always showing up authentically as the most heroic version of myself. And that it took work for me to like accept myself and to realize someone will, yes, they'll like that heroic version of you, but they're also going to like and accept this other version of you too. And that took me a lot more work to get to that place. And I think in some ways, that's what we're all afraid of, is that, you know, you're all afraid of, is that if we show up as we really are,

that we're really not going to be loved for that version of ourselves. And that that's just not going to be enough for somebody. And so we kind of are trying to read the situation and read the person and chameleonize ourselves to what we think they might want from us and what might be the right answer to say. and, you know, it's a very difficult thing. You know, I think about the, you know, I'm releasing this book and part of releasing a book is that you go and you do interviews.

And it's kind of, there's always a gear that you're in danger of going into when you go on an interview. And that gear is, I'm going to go on and I'm going to impress. and it takes a little effort to resist that and to say no I'm not going to go on to try to impress I'm going to go on to truly try to connect and the energy is very different when you say I'm going to go to connect versus I want to go to impress I'm no longer performative I'm no longer in the same way worried about whether I say the right thing. I'm more worried about whether I'm speaking something that feels really authentic to me and truthful, whether I'm showing a genuine interest.

And dating is very much like that. We go into these what feel like high-stakes situations. We feel like we're kind of on a podcast interview and we're trying to impress. And, you know, we want someone to like us. We have an audience. It's an audience of one, but we really want that audience to like us and to accept us. And so we go into a sort of version of ourselves. And unfortunately, that version of ourselves can really get in the way of actually what is a far more interesting and endearing version of ourselves that people will really relate to and connect with.

And man, so much of, so much of life is just trying to get past those layers of each other, not just ourselves, but of the person opposite us. And I think that's why that word leadership is so important to me. It's not often used in a dating context. But it actually belongs there as much as it belongs anywhere else. Because leadership is a big part of creating a great love life. when we're in an argument with someone who we've been dating a little, you know, for a few dates

and we have our first argument with them, we can choose to kind of lead. We can choose to lead with compassion, maybe a compassion that they're not showing us. We can choose to lead with a kindness in the way that we argue and what we choose not to say, as well as what we do say. we can choose to be bold about having a standard about what we're asking for.

All these things are a form of leadership. And I really, someone once said to me, we teach people how to love by the way that we love them. And I think that's a very beautiful idea. And it's every time we go in and we bring a level of vulnerability that we want to see from other people. Every time we come in and we bring a level of kindness or warmth that we want to see from somebody else, every time we come in and we give someone a level of compassion or acceptance and lack of judgment that we would like to receive, we are, I believe we are inviting that person to be the best version of themselves. And not everyone will rise to that. Some people

will, you know, throw it back in your face and they won't get it. And it just will be a language they do not understand or they're not ready to understand. And that's okay. Then you take that as a reason to start directing your energy elsewhere. It's not a reason to stop leading. Because when you lead, it's precisely that leadership that will, you'll come across someone who they'll be invited to the best version of themselves when they meet. you and you not it will kind of end up being a double whammy because not only will you now get a better version of them than they've ever given to anyone else but also they will come to associate you with being the force in life the being in life that brings the best out of them

and when you find someone who brings the best out of you who raises you your level, oh, it's like you kind of don't want to give up that person because you're like, you're my ticket to the best me that I can be. And I want to keep becoming the best me. So I want to keep doing this with you. 100%. It's so funny because I've, for years, it's like, you know, we talked about earlier. We watched these movies and these shows of like, she changed him and she made him this version and all that. And I'd always be like, I want to be that woman, right? I want to make him this. And I had such a, such a misguided understanding of what that meant, because I thought that meant, oh, the playboy, I'm going to make him the good guy, right? Oh, that's that huge,

big transition, right? Because I'm so all of these things. Again, did not work. But what I learned about what that actually means of what you're describing was to me and my partner, like, when we first started dating, he's very rigid, he's very just like stoic. Like he'll just kind of look at you and you're like, wow, do you hate me? And it's like, no, he's just takes him a minute. to open up and I'm the big you know super sweet and very nice and very talkative do I don't shut the fuck up and so it was that there was a fun

dynamic and as we dated I remember that we had issues like anybody else and it was a point there was that precipice of okay do I do what everyone says on the internet just walk away right oh this person's not doing what you want you don't have this you don't feel this just walk away or I was like you know what I could also do I could talk to him about it I could have a conversation

with him about it and I did and I FaceTime time we weren't, this was when we were still like a LA to San Diego. And we had a conversation about it. And I remember just saying, hey, you know, just starting it with, I really like you and this is not anything of me an attack, but I need to be honest about where I'm at and that this transpired and this is how I landed on me. And I really, I used using eye statements. And I remember calling my mom prior and saying, like, I'm a little nervous. And she was like, well, Sab, if it doesn't work out, like, then you'll know, right? You'll know if this is something for you. And I remember after that call, what he said to me was, thank you so much because without you telling me,

how else was I going to know that I hurt you? I encourage you, please, call me out any time when I do something. And it evolved and evolved and it wasn't just, I met this amazing guy. And from the second we met, he was super secure and super open. And we were having all these conversations, not a fucking shot. But what happened was by creating a safe space and leading by example of, hey, here's how I'm going to articulate these things to you.

Then he felt, he was inside. He was like, no one's ever spoken to me like that. No one's ever cared enough. And so now he's broken down walls and he started therapy and he's, he's so much more vulnerable. And I feel safe to express myself with him in ways that we never. And then it finally hit me of, oh, so this is what it means to bring out the best in each other. This is what that means where you're like, I'm changing for the best. I'm evolving.

I'm growing as opposed to, I think what most people see that as is no, no, no, he's unavailable. I'm going to change him and make him available. That's not the point of all this. because we can't control other people. I cannot change who you are and I cannot force you to do anything differently than you are. But what I can do is, like you said, lead by example of, well, hey, here's the relationship I want. I'm going to show you that by my actions. And that's totally okay.

I don't need to create a narrative as to why you're not reciprocating that. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. What that just means is, hey, we just might want two different things. It's so good. It took a lot, you know, and I'm sure you can understand, like, it takes a lot to get to that point where you can say it's not about me. It's just maybe this doesn't work. But you know, you highlighted something really, really important, which is that the only way you really know what you have is through hard conversations.

You know, the great relationships are kind of beaten out against the anvil of hard conversations. And most people are unwilling to have them because they're afraid that it will make them appear too vulnerable or to share what's really bothered them or that it will make them too high maintenance or too difficult and the other person's just going to walk away because they're going to be like you're not worth this trouble or this has become too difficult. And the great tragedy of that is that those conversations are they are actually what make you stronger and they are actually what determines the quality of your relationship. the great date you went on doesn't determine the quality of your relationship.

It's the conversation you're having about a difficult thing or about something that hurt you that you have on a Tuesday at 2pm and the way you resolve it together makes you realize we're pretty good at resolving things together. And by the way, you now understand me more and I understand you more and we have a little bit, we just lit up a little bit more of the blueprint to each other. brains and how to make each other happy. And there's something very satisfying in that. So it's a real shame when we avoid those. I was very passionate about this. I wrote an entire chapter in the book called Have Hard Conversations and laid out very specific ways that people can have them

in some common scenarios. For example, in the like, what are we conversation? How do we have those? because your life and your love life will improve in direct proportion to the number of difficult conversations you're willing to have. I'm curious, Sabrina, what was, when you were, when you had come out of something that wasn't healthy,

and then you found yourself in a situation that was healthy, notwithstanding that there were conversations that you were going to have that would help to shape it into something better and better, but even so, it seems from what you're saying, you sensed that there was something healthier about this situation. How did you, how did you go forward with that and decide that

meant yes, as opposed to deciding that that meant weird, strange, boring, not for me, not the thing that I'm used to and therefore this isn't it. This isn't this isn't the normal kind of feeling I get. And so I'm going to keep looking for the normal kind of feeling I get because that's a that's one of the hardest transitions that people have to make. So how did you make that transition? I'll be honest with you. It was when I first met, so his name is Ryan. When I first met Ryan, we hooked up on the first date and I left and I was like, I'm never going to see this guy again. Like, come on, please. Just the normal. I met him online.

We hooked up and I was like, okay, please. And so then he kept wanting to see me and I was like, all right, whatever, I guess we'll go with this. And I never had the spark. I never had this like, this is it. Oh, my God, the stars. No, no, no. At the same time, I met another guy. I had the spark and I had the fireworks and I had all of that.

And Ryan knew. We were both very honest of like, I'm not in a relationship with you. Like, I am dating other people. And Ryan one night asked me to be his girlfriend and like when all this was happening about like a month in and I looked at him and I said, I'm not ready. I said, no, I just blurted it out. I went, no. And he was like, huh? And I said, no, let me explain. I was like, I didn't mean just no. I was like, let me explain. I said, I don't feel like I know you well enough. I said, you're very, you know, you're stoic and you're hard to read. And I'm incredibly warm and I'm engaging. And I was like, I need so much more in a relationship that I really want to see if we actually have that. And then he said, wow, that actually makes total sense. Absolutely. Let's continue. So just little things like that or when I told him I wanted more texting. And he said, hey, this isn't a sign of my disinterest. I don't want to engage in a digital relationship. I'd much rather spend time with you. you are you free Thursday? Things like that where I was like, okay, passing green. We're going to go. We're going to keep doing things even though. And truthfully speaking, and he knows this. I was going to break up with him. I had the text written out because I was like, no, he's too, he's boring.

No, no, no, this is boring. And my mom was like sitting next to me and she's like, I can't fucking believe you're doing this. This guy is amazing. And he looks me in the eyes when he talks to me. I'm telling you you're being silly. And I said, okay, but it's my, I said, it's my journey. And I, but I didn't send the text. I sat on it all day. Something in my gut was like, just don't say it. as I was about to send it, the other guy text me, I'm sorry, I thought I was ready, I realized I'm not. And it was just as if like the stars aligned for me. And I was like, okay, this is the precipice of I could continue and I could tell Ryan to leave me alone. No thank you. And go after the unavailable and chase after this person that's, I'm not ready for a relationship. And I don't know that I could do it. And I'm going through my stuff. But he was attractive and he was tall and I felt a spark. And we had a great conversation.

Like he said, it was a great first date. then I realized, and literally in that moment, I remember dropping my phone and I was like, what am I doing, mom? What am I doing? I was like, I'm about to walk away from somebody who actually wants to be with me and wants to give me all of these things that I'm telling him. Every time I go to my partner and say, you know what, this really annoys me and this really hurts me. I don't appreciate what you said. All I get met with is, I am so sorry if I ever hurt you. That was never my intention. How can I make this up to you? What can I do? And what do you need for me? And it's strange for me because, and I talk about this a lot, it's one thing to say, I need to get away from toxic, right?

Oh, okay, cool. We can identify what are the red flags and avoid and play that game, right? That's a very different experience than are you ready to receive? Because then you meet somebody that says, hey, I value you when I see you. And here I'm going, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. I'm too much, right? That's what my father taught me. I'm too much.

There's something wrong with me. No one's going to love me like that because he walked out. on me all my life. So why would you know there's something wrong? And that dynamic of, wait a minute, you're actually going to teach me how to how to be loved and you're going to show me that I am actually worthy of all of that and deserving and I belong here in this relationship. It was that moment where I said, either I can continue to go after that addiction loop and continue on with the same behavior I've been doing in New York, in L.A. and now San Diego. And I could be the girl that's crying wolf and saying nobody ever wants a relationship with me and nobody likes me.

or I could stop and say, wait a minute, there are doors open all around me. There are plenty of people that do actually want to be with me. Do I want to be with myself? Am I ready to meet myself? Am I ready to receive this? Am I ready to finally acknowledge, you're right, I am fucking awesome and I do deserve this.

That was where it was a struggle for me because I wanted so badly to run and say, no, he's boring until I had to say, well, actually, it's not really, there's no issues with him. There's no gut reactions. There's anxiety. and that anxiety was, but he's not texting me enough.

Okay, when I challenge that it's, but that's not actually an issue here, this person showing up for you. And I really had to work through my shit and call myself out consistently along the way because I knew if I walk away from this, I don't know when I'll find that again. And that was too, too much of a risk. I wasn't going to rush and roulette that shit. I wasn't going to put that money on lucky number seven. I was going to go for somebody that felt in my gut was something. that I needed to experience. Whoa.

So well put. Like really, so, so, so well put. It's beautiful. Thank you. And I love what you said about, you know, I still wanted him to text me more, but what, you know, you were able to view

contextually what the ways he was showing up and holistically and go, oh, it's, this, this, this, This is an old issue that is sending off an alarm bell in a situation where I'm actually fundamentally safe. And that realization that he was, that Ryan is his name, that Ryan was actually the gift that you deserved. I wouldn't have known that if I didn't have the shitty experience prior. if Clem hadn't died and I, because I had the guy that text me every day and we had cute little

nicknames in our phone and we were spending all of our time together and he wanted, he met my friends and family after like two weeks. But then when shit hit the fan, when my 10 year old, my baby, literally who I have a tattoo of, I will hold him forever in my heart. When my everything died and your response to me is, I'm sorry I wanted to watch a movie tonight, I can't come over. it was just that realization of oh my god what am i doing the texting doesn't matter it's low effort you could do that while you're taking a shit you could automate it it's not the end-all be-all but how else am i looking so when i looked at that guy and said all he's doing is showing up via text but he's not emotionally there he's not having conversations of depth he wasn't there when i needed him versus my partner that

on our third date remembered that i said i liked something and had it at the house for dessert for me because he thought about it on his run and went to get it for me. That was that moment of, wait a minute, they do exist. Girl, you need to switch your narrative and maybe take those glasses off because what you know that to be doesn't mean that that's all there is. And I think we have that misconception of no, but this means that that's it. And if I don't have this, then there's nothing else. But maybe we can open our perspective up to, but you know what? Maybe people aren't black and white. And to me, that's healing. Healing is we add shades of gray into our understanding. of how people relate to each other

because I could look and say, Matthew, you're all of these things and you can say, you don't even know me. You don't know what's under the hood. Healing allows me to say, oh, I know that I have a lot of shades of gray that you must as well. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And that's why I've always had an issue with, when people say, I've done so much work on myself, it's really hard now to meet someone who's at my level. I'm always like that sounds a little

almost strangely backwards to me I've I've always found that firstly usually when I do work on myself is because life has punched me in the face right it's like something has happened in my life

that has humbled me or I've experienced tremendous loss I something changed in my life some really challenging circumstances arose. And as a result, I decided I need to like figure this out and I need help. And it was, you know, the times where I signed up for therapy were times when things were really bad.

It wasn't when things were really good. And in those moments, the greatest work I've ever done for myself is work that's made me more compassionate towards myself and work that's made me more compassionate towards myself and work that's made me more accepting of myself. And I speak for myself, not everyone else here, but I have found that the more compassionate I became towards myself, the more accepting I became of other people. Because I no longer judged people in the same way. And that's not to say, you know, if you're with someone who's constantly disrespecting you

or they're abusive or they're inconsistent or they don't make you feel like you don't know where you stand, that's not stuff you have to have compassion. You can have compassion for it, but you can also say, this isn't an energy I want to be around. This isn't good for me. But a lot of the things we disqualify people on are things that if we viewed them through a more compassionate lens, we'd realize like, oh, they're just, this is just like something that someone could judge me for it. This is just like something that someone could disqualify me. me for. And if I'm constantly finding these grounds to disqualify people, then

I'm not, it's almost a way of not accepting myself because I have things that people could disqualify me for. I have things that people could say, I don't want to put up with that. I don't have any patience for that. I don't want to deal with that. You know, I'm lucky that my wife, Audrey, had compassion for various aspects of me. Otherwise, we wouldn't be together today. So I, you know, I love what you're saying because it's real.

That's real. There's real life, real relationships. There are things that we're going to have to develop compassion for in other people. And we're going to hope that they extend us the same latitude when it comes to the things that we worry someone's not going to accept. I think it's, I think everything you just said is really beautiful and really, really helpful. And it's like, I think that's where I see that dynamic of the anxious attachment. the anxious and the avoidant. It's the, no, no, but they are the ones and they're the ones. And it's like, hey, the more, if you're doing all this work on yourself, then you're going to be the first to

say, well, let me take accountability, right? Let me take ownership of my spot. I had a narcissistic ex. I'm not going to say that I deserved that. Of course not. I was in an abusive situation. But you know what? I will say, I played a part in it. I did play a part in this. I will never victim blame because that's not my place. But what I will say is, you know what? I didn't have any boundaries. I allowed him to walk all over me because I was terrified to speak up because I was scared he was going to leave me. That was my journey. And now that when I went into dating, I'm with you. I didn't find it harder when I became more healthy because I found it. I was able to no, thank you. No, thank you. I love myself. I accept myself. I know I'm a fickle bitch.

I know I talk a lot. I know I curse a lot. I know I speak fat. I know all of these things about myself. And instead of shaming myself for it, I embrace it. And I say, listen, somebody who's going to be with me it's going to love me for me, right? So it's unapologetically myself with boundaries, of course. I'm not like all over somebody on a first date. But I think just even understanding like if you're stuck in a dynamic, especially like you said, I can't find anybody and I'm doing all this and it's getting harder, well, we then need to stop and say, how authentic are you being with, how honest are you being with yourself on how you're showing up and how honest are you being about what your expectations are and how you're seeing the dynamic. It's totally cool to have high expectations. You want to come in and say,

well, I have all of these things that I want someone to match cool. But then that means you need to have a resilience towards when they don't. It can't be that you're a house of cards that comes crumbling down because you have all these high expectations. That person didn't do it. And now it's the end of the world. Then that means, well, the pinch doesn't match the out. You're not being honest about where you are more than okay. Let's meet people where they are. But don't bullshit me. Don't come and say, no, I just can't find anyone. And then when I ask you how you are on a first date, it's, well, I'm not going to say that. No, no, no. And I'm not going to do this. And I play the cool girl and I'm not going to do that. Well, that's okay. That's okay to say that that's where you are.

But then we have to stop the kind of, well, is me and oh, poor me, I can't seem to find it. And then say, you know what? Maybe because I'm not showing up is that. Maybe that's why I haven't found it, because I'm not actually looking for the right thing. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen Tiguan. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents. Under the hood, the available 201 turbocharged horsepower engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tiguan, you deserve more style.

Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVw, German engineered for all. Many people who say they struggle because they have really high standards, it's always interesting to me how the more you dig in, the more you realize, they have really high standards about certain things and almost no standards about other things. You know, there's a huge, there's a very high standard for how tall they are or for this person's facial symmetry, but there's no standard apparently when it comes to kindness or when it comes to how well this person treats them or how they show up in their life or how reliable they are.

And so we always have to suspect ourselves if our claim to having high sense, standards and that's why we're struggling so much in our love life is we have really high standards is a very al-a-cart version of having standards where some things we have a tremendous standard and other things apparently they don't matter at all especially when the things that we are have no standards around are like fundamental character traits and a fundamental to how someone treats you, we really have to suspect ourselves if those are the areas where we don't have standards. 100%. It's like I had dated a guy who told me that he broke up with a girl because of the way she parted her hair. And it's like, okay, you know what? At that point, it's like, now you're just

literally finding a reason to then be like, oh, it's safer. I can leave. And that's fine. Again, I will never, I think that's anybody that listens to the podcast knows, like, I come with a lot of tough love because I was her. So I'm coming at it as, no, no, no, no, let's take the gloves. off and let's be honest. I think Matthew, I'll speak for both of us. Both of us here want everybody to listen to have a successful love life. We want you to find your person and to feel so safe, seeing hurt and understood all of those things. But until you meet yourself, it's going to be really difficult for it to meet somebody else. And it's not, you can't, if you don't love yourself, no one else can love you. But my mom is famous saying, if you don't love your, you need to

love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people. Because this person's in addition to your life, they are not instead of. And if you don't have that strong sense of self and that core to say, hey, if this doesn't work, I'll walk away. That is the differentiating factor. Someone secure will say, hey, that sounds like a you problem. I don't need to internalize that. Or somebody insecure will say, oh, God, what's wrong with me that you don't like me? Two very different experiences. A phrase I really love is happy enough, that we have to be happy enough in our lives as they are today, that we can say no to the wrong thing, happy enough that if the right thing comes along,

we can be ourselves instead of trying to be someone we think we need to be to impress someone because it's so impossibly high stakes that if we don't get this person, then we'll never be okay again. Happy enough that we can go out and be proactive and take risks because actually when you're happy enough, you kind of have, in a strange way, you have nothing to lose

because you know that your life as it is is enough. And so that paradoxically, it doesn't make you passive. It actually enables you to go and take big swings because you know you'll be okay if they don't come off. Happy enough is a superpower, and I prefer it to happy because happy, I've always found happy intimidating.

that there's a you know the kind of rhetoric that we have to be truly happy before we meet someone I've always found that to be an unattainable goal that makes people feel even more inadequate it's like kicking someone while they're down you know you you really want to find love which we all do it's hard when you haven't found love it's scary sometimes it's because you worry is it ever going to happen for me. It's lonely at times, even for the strongest people, your head hits the pillow and it's 10 o'clock at night and there's nothing to distract you

and you wish someone was there next to you. You know, it's a very human feeling. So, you know, when we're told alongside all of these difficult feelings that are very human and very normal, that you have to be happy. If you're not happy, it's never going to happen for you. It's like a, you know, it really is like an insult to injury. And I don't, I much prefer to think of it in terms of happy enough.

What, how do we get to a point? We're amidst the sadness that we feel sometimes or the loneliness that we feel sometimes or the fear that we feel sometimes. How do we get to a point where we're happy enough with ourselves, our life and the joy that we experience on a day-to-day basis that we no longer feel like we're held hostage by this desire of ours to find love and that that i believe is a truly life-changing thing uh and i had a very real experience with this of my own because i for years i had terrible chronic physical pain that was i had tinitinitus with loud ringing in my ears that never went away to this day

it's never gone away, it's still there. But also a pain in my head, my ear, a constant throbbing that never went away. And it was a pain that I had for seven or eight years of my life. And I got to the point where I just truly, I didn't know, I tried everything to get rid of this pain. And I couldn't get rid of it. There was nothing my type A, overachieving,

grit personality could do to outsmart this problem, it just never went away, tried everything. And I got to the point where I realized I am going to have to figure out how to manage my relationship with this thing. Because if I don't, and it never goes away, I'm, essentially my life is over. I'm never going to enjoy life again. And so I went on a, you know, my own path was really one of over the years that followed learning tools that helped me manage my relationship with my physical pain. And what I found, and for anyone who wants to learn those tools, I put them in the book, what I found was it's incredibly analogous to the pain that people go through in their love lives.

because being single and wanting to find love and then add to that for many people, wanting a family and not feeling like you're progressing towards that goal, is a form of chronic pain. It is a chronic emotional pain that does not go away for people. And we, everything I put in this book is designed to help people find love and find their part person and be a co-pilot for them in doing that. But I wanted it to be more fundamental than that. I wanted it to help people manage their relationship with that chronic pain in a way that

would allow them to feel happy enough from where they stand right now. Because if you can get to happy enough, which is totally doable, it's not blissfully happy and whole. It's just happy enough that you realize, you know what, if things stay like this, I'll be all right. If you can get to that place, it is a superpower and it will change your experience of the present right now, which for a lot of people is unfortunately constantly marred, not just by the sensation of loneliness, but the catastrophic things. thinking and the ongoing story that it's never going to happen for me. And if it doesn't happen for me, I'm going to be unhappy for the rest of my life. And that being a completely untenable

thought that has a way of marring every single day. I love happy enough because I'm with you. Like I grew up with my dad who'll be like, are you happy? And I'll just like, I don't know what that means. Like, I don't know how to answer it. And he's like, okay, just be happy. And I'm like, do you have a dictionary? I'm like, could you explain to me? Like, what does that actually look like? But instead, my mama reframed that

and she would say, for now. Everything when I say, I'm like, but mom, I'm never going to, like I can't find this. And she would always say, for now. And it helped me to reframe and something that I'm going to kind of piggyback on happy for now,

or happy enough, that I, that was kind of similar to that. And it was, when I was single, my mom would always tell me, I'd be like, oh, you know, it's Valentine's Day or whatever. Or I'm home alone on a sack. Saturday night and I'm watching a TV. Oh, I wish I had a date. My mom would say, you know what?

Sab, in a year, you might not have any alone time. You could live with a partner and say goodbye to your trash TV. Say goodbye to you doing what you want to do. Enjoy this moment now because you don't know. And it totally changed everything because now I have my partner and I can't watch my trash TV or he makes fun of me when I do. And we have to now go on separate sides of the house so I can watch 90-day fiance. And anyways, to your point, I'm 100% with you. And Matthew, I literally could fucking talk to you all day. But thank you so much for being on this podcast, for sharing your insights, for being an inspiration of growth and of evolution and of being able to share that with everybody. And I'm just so honored and grateful to have had you on the podcast. I'm so grateful to be here. I've loved

this conversation. It's so fun talking to you. And it's so evident the work that you have done. And it's really courageous. It's really admirable. I know you're helping so many people with your ability to just share from the heart and be both authentic and insightful at the same time. It's a real pleasure. For anyone, by the way, who wants a copy of the book, we have a website lovelifebook.com. It's available everywhere. There's many different retailers on that site, whether you're domestic or international, but there's two cool things we're doing right now.

One is a giveaway for everyone who gets a copy of the book. There's all sorts of fun giveaways that we're doing from tickets to my retreat this year. It's a six-day retreat in Florida to a one-on-one with me, some signed books, all sorts of fun stuff. But even if you don't win anything, we actually have an event on May the 4th called Find Your Person. And this is an event where it's a virtual event. So we're going to have people from all over the world joining. But it's an exclusive just for people who get a copy of the book. so I'm going to be taking the ideas from the book and saying, okay, if you want to find your

person in the next year of your life, obviously no one can guarantee you that. But if I was saying what are all the things I would do if I were in your shoes and I was trying to guarantee that result, what roadmap would I give you? And that's what I'm putting together in this event. And if you just go on lovelifebook.com, you can not only order the book, but you can use your receipt to basically claim your ticket to that event and also be entered into the giveaways. But I'm so excited for everyone to read it. Every copy of the book you get helps me raise awareness for the book.

And frankly, there's people that don't know me, they don't know my work. And I want to get this book to people who don't just want to find love, but people who are stuck in really unhealthy or toxic situations, people who are just struggling with being single, is perfectly normal and perfectly human, but, you know, I want to get this book to people who could actually have a better time of it than they're having right now and feel a sense of calm again and a sense of presence in their lives. It's why when I wrote on the front of the book,

how to raise your standards, find your person, and live happily no matter what, the no matter what part was really, really important to me to put on the front of the book. So all of that is at lovelifebook.com. And Sabrina, I can't wait to have you on the Love Life podcast. I know we're going to have you on our podcast as well. And my audience is going to absolutely love you and your authenticity. And I just can't wait. I can't wait to tell your story to my audience next time round. I'm excited. Everything will be linked in the show notes. So we will be promoting the book and pushing it out so everybody could get a copy and support you and continue on with this journey so that they can also help themselves. What a win-win if you ask me.

Amazing. Thank you so much for having. This has been so fun.