The Sabrina Zohar Show - 76: Healing from narcissists: Understanding family dynamics, boundaries, and moving forward with Dr. Ramani

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

Sabrina is joined today by Dr. Ramani, a clinical psychologist, who describes narcissism as a maladaptive personality style rooted in low empathy, appearance focus, and a need for admiration, with insecurity and shame at its core. Children of narcissistic parents often experience guilt, anxiety, and low self-esteem. Sabrina speaks to her personal experiences with a narcissistic parent. Dr. Ramani dives into the nuanced topic of knowing when to walk away as an adult child which involves setting boundaries, understanding the individual’s journey, and prioritizing therapy. Co-parenting with a narcissist presents immense challenges, requiring prioritization of children's well-being and seeking professional support. Overall, the impact of narcissistic behavior on familial relationships and psychological well-being necessitates understanding, boundary setting, and therapeutic intervention. Get Dr. Ramani's book 'It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People' Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home. From binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. I am so excited. We have Dr. Romany here today. This episode is one very near and dear to my heart.

We talk about narcissistic family members, trying to co-parent with a narcissist being the child of one and also having family members that are narcissists and how to navigate that. And so I wanted to bring in the one and only who, you know, her new book, It's Not You, is so profound and so beautiful. And like this is Dr. Romani is the, she is the narcissist specialist. So it's like, who better to have? And I felt so seen hurt and understood.

I cry on this episode. It's like a whole thing. So I'm really, really grateful. And I'm so excited. You guys grab the book. It's an amazing book. I think you're going to love it. But I hope you guys love the episode.

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means that much to me. So guys, without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it, shall we? Hey, Dr. Romney. I'm so excited to have you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Of course. I'm so excited. I just got your new book. It's not you. And so excited to have you here. Welcome, welcome. And I just, for anybody who doesn't know you in our community, could you introduce yourself and share a little bit about yourself. Yeah, I am a clinical psychologist. I've been practicing for decades. I'm a retired professor of psychology, a professor emerita also did that for decades at Cal State, L.A. I am an author. I've written four books, three of them on narcissism and narcissistic relationships. The most recent one just came out very, very recently,

called It's Not You. And I also do, I teach therapists on how to work with people who are survivors of these relationships. I have a popular YouTube channel on this topic. So pretty much, you know, focused on this issue and have been for a long time. So that's really me. Yeah. That's awesome. And I think when it comes to the word narcissist, I'm sure you can relate. It's been so overconflated. And it's been wildly overused. And like as somebody personally for me, like my father is textbook narcissist, like grandiose and incredibly arrogant and narcissistic rage and will blow up, like, you name it, this man has it. And for so many years, I was completely unaware of the impact that having a narcissistic parent and like a people-pleasing mother can have on my,

you know, having anxious attachment and just not understanding that. And so I wanted to take the time today because we talk about dating and dating a narcissist and what to look out for, love bombing and all of those things. But I don't think we talk enough about familial narcissism and, you know, just, I have so many questions. So I kind of just, I wanted to start by really asking, how do you accurately define a narcissist? Like, let's just, oh, just start there. So let's, a great place to start is to think of narcissism as a personality style and not a disorder. I think calling it a disorder muddies the waters a lot. So it's a personality style. It's an unhealthy personality style by my estimation. But everyone has a personality and narcissism is one of the many personalities

this person can have. We call it a maladaptive personality style because it puts people or narcissistic at odds with other people. People who have this personality style, the traits and patterns we see associated with it are things like low empathy or variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity. They're very superficial, shallow, focused on appearances. They often envy other people. They think other people envy them. They have an excessive need for admiration and validation. There is a an egocentricity, a selfishness, a self-centeredness. They're completely preoccupied with themselves to the complete exclusion of others. And this shows up in the relationship as things like manipulation, gaslighting, invalidation, betrayal, lying, making the other person feel small.

At the core of the narcissistic person, I didn't even jump ahead to that question, because people say, well, why? What's the function of this personality, right? Our personalities are just sort of like how we go through the world. But what we do know about narcissistic folks is that all of this stuff, the grandiosity, the arrogance, the superiority, all of it. These defenses protect this really core interior insecurity and shame. And I always use the analogy of imagine a narcissistic person's like a volcano. And that volcano inside them, of which they have no awareness, by the way,

is the lava and the gases in it are shame and insecurity. And on top of that thing, they've put this really heavy metal like manhole cover like you see in the street. So none of that stuff can come out. Those are those defenses, the arrogance and the admiration and all that stuff, right? On a good day, all that stuff works. They're not aware of that. The manhole cover is tight on there. They're being praised.

They're going through the world that way. However, if that cover gets nudged off that volcano, as it were, and that could be happened because they get feedback, they get criticism, something doesn't. doesn't go their way, they feel like someone is pushing back on them, whatever it may be, they blow. And either they blow overtly, screaming and yelling, maybe even getting physically aggressive, they also may become passive aggressive, withhold, and give the silent treatment. It really depends on the individual and the form of narcissism and all of that. That's narcissism.

And it's on a continuum from mild to severe, which is why a person who sees a milder narcissistic person might see someone who seems more, again, selfish, egotism. egocentric, self-centered, always obsessed with how they look, how other people look. They might just come off as snobby, that kind of thing, all the way to severe narcissism, which can look malignant, malevolent, exploitative, coercive, scary, menacing. Obviously, those two things look different, but the dynamic is exactly the same. 100%. I've definitely experienced, like, only knowing from my father, like, literally being raised,

and, you know, I've talked to my mom about this and she's like, you know, Sam did any, like my mom's almost 70 and she was like, did anyone even know what this word is when I married your father 40 years ago? She was like, we didn't talk about that. She was like, all I learned was, what are you doing wrong? Why isn't your husband happy? How, why aren't you making him happy? And then until recently, like, even that grandiosity component, just being with my dad recently hearing him, everything was, oh yeah, I went to the grocery store. I was like, oh, yeah, can you believe how expensive blueberries are here? Well, you know, I get blueberries. And it's like, just became about him of how he is just the superiority of how he can find it cheaper. And you're like,

cool. That's great. But I wanted to, it was curious. Like, I think one, we know that like, do you, in your opinion, do you think that it's, do you think there are this many narcissists out there? Or is it just a common misconception between like maybe avoidance or just someone being a dickhead versus like they're a true narcissist? Because we hear it so often. I can't help but wonder, are there that many? A lot of people are misusing the term. There's no two ways about it. And that's a real problem. And this is what happens with the sort of the Instagramming and TikTok if a and everybody becomes an expert overnight, right? And so I do think we're overusing the term.

It's not just an a-hole. It's not just a dick. Let me put this way. All narcissistic people are probably assholes. Not sure that all assholes are narcissistic, right? So I do believe that we are using the term just if somebody's selfish. For example, someone in your life is selfish. They won't, I don't know, budge on vacation plans or something.

Oh, my gosh, she's so narcissistic. We always have to go to such and such place. I'm like, I think she's insistent. I think she might be stubborn. She may even be selfish. I need a little more data on the narcissistic piece right here. So I do think we are overusing the term. And there's a real problem in that because it's a very important descriptive word.

If you really are in a narcissistic relationship, it will harm you psychologically in almost 99% of cases. And so especially, as you said, if it's a parent. And so I think that this soft peddling on this word or using it incorrectly really harms people who are actually going through these relationships. And yeah, a lot of jerks are narcissistic. There's no two ways about it. It's a more palatable word. People don't like using the word narcissistic.

It feels diagnostic. And again, that's another misconception, right? So all these things have made this term, which is actually very useful when it's used correctly, very confused. And what ends up happening is people going through these relationships find themselves being even more judged, which is the last thing they need because they're already being so judge. As you said, and I think you pointed.

out something so important. Your mom's 70. Back when I get married, we didn't talk about this. She's absolutely right. Unless you were the 0.0001% of privileged white folks who were in psychoanalysis, nobody was hearing that word back then. And she's absolutely right, too, that the hegemony around marriage and relationships was if your, especially your husband's not happy, then what are you doing wrong? And I could, you know, there's stacks and stacks of good housekeeping magazines out there of how to make your husband happy, how to make sure he's happy. So our entire prevailing rhetoric is about if a spouse isn't happy, then it's the other spouse's fault.

100%. And now, how do you actually recognize a parent being a narcissist? Because, of course, the dynamic is going to be different. Obviously, like I said, love bombing gaslighting, different things like that. But when we're talking about that with a specific parent, and I was curious, how do you identify it? And then my follow up on that would be, is there a difference between a mother or a father being a narcissist. Does it have different, does it come on? Does it have different kind of like connotations?

Does it meet? Does it come out differently? No, I'm going to make it. It's two separate questions. I'm going to lose my train of thought. I know myself well. Okay. So here's where it gets tricky with parents. By and large, parents are with children. Children will not ever have the capacity to detect what this is. And we're never going to live in a world because of how a child's brain works where a child is going to learn how to detect narcissism. That's the shame of all of this. What that means, is that the other adults around the child have to be willing to recognize the patterns and step in on behalf of the child more vigorously. That's also a problem because the other person in the relationship is often completely dominated and overwhelmed by the narcissistic person.

So really short answer, kids can't win if they have one narcissistic parent. But the good news is, good news is that if a child has one good, even decent parent, even if that parent is sort of overwhelmed and still trying to sort of pedal faster and faster for the narcissistic parent, if they were able to make a secure attachment to that child, which happens all the time, that's a good prognostic sign, meaning that a child usually only needs one secure attachment to be able to make it, to get through life in a healthy enough way. The challenge is, though, that narcissistic parent will also fill that child with a lifetime of anxiety.

So there's a sort of a plus and a minus, right? Exactly. I got you. And so there's in terms of what does it show up as. So there's no detecting it unless a third party looks in. And it's very rarely going to be the other spouse or parent or co-parent unless they're starting to sort of, they're having the problems in the marriage. They do the deep dive.

They figure it out. And they're like, oh, no, you know, this is happening. And they seek out therapy. That's a pretty rarefied group of people. It's happening more and more, which is great. But it's not happening enough, certainly. that would require a third party outside of the immediate, so outside of the immediate like sort of nuclear family,

that might be a grandparent. Grandparents probably not going to see it. They might have contributed to the dynamic in the first place. So they might be intergenerational. So that's a low probability event. Maybe an aunt or an uncle, certainly a paid caregiver is not going to pick it out because this is their employer.

Do you see what I'm saying? And a teacher is usually not in a child's life long enough. So the kids are kind of in a really rough spot. because short of the child being in therapy or the family being in therapy, there's really never going to be good eyes on this long enough that are not invested in the status quo of the system. So that said, how does a narcissistic parent show up? It's really a role reversal. For a child who's being raised by a narcissistic parent, it's all about the parent.

The child has to modify themselves and become what that parent wants to be loved, to be seen, to be attuned to. It's really that simple. The child does not get to be themselves. And because attachment is a survival need for children, the child's going to figure out the rules of the game real fast and become what that parent wants, as long as it's within their ability to do so. And that might mean to be quiet, to be invisible, to be helpful, to cheer the parent up, even when the child's had a bad day, to not express their needs. And if the child has an independent autonomous self outside of the parent, a need, a want, an aspiration, Whatever it is, the parent will shame the child and tell them, you're entitled, you're selfish,

you're a bad person. The child then gets indoctrinated that any need of theirs is not going, is greedy. It makes them a bad person. So there's a silencing of self. And that silencing of self is even more pronounced because a child needs to maintain that attachment. And then the child will exhaust itself, themselves, attempting to win over that parent. There's this forever battle of I'm going to win them over. And the child may take on interest that the parent has, might literally sit down and watch things that bore the poor child to death, to just get time with that parent,

try to take on a hobby that the parent values. And this is what I'm saying. That's why I use that word capacity. Not every kid is meant to be a star student or a star athlete or a star whatever the hell the parent wants them to be. And so that child then feels worse and worse about themselves. Instead of, this is BS, that I have to be good at tennis to get my parents to love me, but rather it is absolutely BS that there's a condition on this,

but no child will ever be able, their brain isn't made for that. What this does is it creates an ongoing anxiety in the child, an absolute sense that love is conditional, that expressing themselves and their needs is going to mean they're not going to be loved and that they're selfish. They may even go into adulthood feeling like a bad, incompetent person or have low self-worth or self-esteem. It ain't pretty. That's what that looks like. And then your final part, of your question was mother versus father, right? It's an interesting question. You know, obviously and some children have two moms, two dads. I think that we'd almost want to look at sort of who has sort of what custodial role in the family, right? I think the harms can be different.

Some of it can be gender-based. So in other words, if the parent and the child share the same gender, so like a father and a son would be a great example, that impact could be quite different that a father and a daughter, assuming that the family has all, everyone's present. It might also have to do with what is the mental state status, health of the other parent. The healthier the other parent, the more that they're going to be a, they're going to be a protective factor against this narcissistic parent, if that makes sense. And that's often not the case. By definition, narcissistic marriages relationships are asymmetric.

So the odds of it being healthy are kind of moderately. low. The only something sometimes that helps folks is if the non-narcissistic parent is sort of resource, they have a job, they have money, they can sometimes step in and make sure that the kid at least has that part covered, right? It has a little bit more of a voice in the relationship. And then we have to also account for the, of course, the horrifying situation when both parents are narcissistic, which happens. And that's a mess. I mean, it is an absolute mess. Those, I think, are the kids who are going to have the worst outcomes because now there's neither parent can have a healthy attachment. But I think a lot of it will come down to things like

primary caregiving roles, what the child isn't getting, the sense of safety. Because I'm going to be frank with you, I've met more than a few people where the mother was the primary caregiver, the mother was narcissistic, and the father was really a good, solid, you know, agreeable, nice person. And it had the same effect, even though the dad wasn't around as much, if that makes sense. It still had a protective effect. We often don't think of that switch. The way narcissism shows up and men and women can also be different. And again, I'm using the gender binary because that's really how the clinical and research work is gone over time. I sincerely hope we have obviously much, much more rich, you know, nuanced research that talks about what we know is in the binary. And what we know is that

women, when they're narcissistic, are a little bit more likely to be what we call vulnerable narcissist. This is more of the passive aggressive, you owe me, sullen, resentful, victimized, kind of like, woe is me, I gave up everything for you kind of thing, right? That's what we see in women who are narcissistic more. The fathers who are men who are narcissistic are more likely to either be grandiose, the arrogant, preening, pretentious, rageful, I better get my way, I'm so great, I know where the blueberries are for them, or the malignant narcissists who are cruel, coercive, cold, antagonistic. Can a woman be those things? Absolutely, absolutely. But I'm saying probability-wise, right? So some of it's going to have to do with how the narcissism shows up. And so I think that it's going to, there's a lot of it depends, I guess. You can put those

combinations together in many, many different ways. But a lot of people who have narcissistic moms who play the whole guilt, you owe me, how could you leave me? How could you be your own self? Those moms sort of psychologically clip their children's wings who then feel incredibly guilty at leaving this mother, was really indoctrinated them into believing, you owe me something, right? And then the narcissistic father, an often typical thing is they'll get more competitive with the child as the child gets older. Like, I could do that too. Well, if I had all the opportunities you have, I'd be the king of the world. How come you can't make all this happen? So it still becomes this. There's never this attunement. They will view the child literally as a competitor. And again, they'll parentify the child,

the mother or the father feeling like the child owes them, that they have to stay around, that they have to be their social companion, that kind of thing. So it's messy. It's messy. It's enmeshed. And it really, really does a number on people.

What's so wild is as you were talking, I had a wave of emotion come over me. Like I started to tear up. And more so because for the first time, I actually think my little me felt so seen by what you were saying. Because I grew up, wow, I think this was the first time I've cried on the podcast. I grew up in such a household of,

I'm your father, I can do anything I want. And I had a people pleasing mother who had, my mom was in an orphan and just a child. Like my mom ate shit her childhood. She was an immigrant. This woman has gone, I don't think she's ever seen happiness. So would I expect her to even be able to know?

And just hearing, like, I remember my sister growing up having a learning disability. She didn't have a learning disability. She's brilliant. My dad used to smack her when she'd get a math problem wrong. And I remember watching that as a kid. And my mom just walking by, going, I'm going to take Joe to school and leaving us and me going and my mom and I talking

recently and I was like, we, the household was contingent upon dad. We were constantly scanning the room of, is he mad? Is he okay? Is he going to be okay? Oh, there he goes screaming. I thought I was okay. Seconds ago, you said you loved me and I'm beautiful and then all of a sudden go fuck yourself. You're a piece of shit. Don't ever call me again. And it's funny because for me, look, when you were talking about that guilt, especially that the mother instills, my dad has always done. I've and you everything and it's like that that overwhelming of like oh who am i to god forbid say i'm not happy and i remember during covid i did a post i have a clothing line and during covid it was scary of course my business was in shambles and i didn't know what was going on and i made a very vulnerable post it was

the first time i've ever done that saying i'm scared and i'm you know i'm a little nervous and i'll never forget my dad called me and said what the fuck are you doing take that shit down nobody wants to hear about your bullshit you're happy stop letting people know you're not happy you have and i looked like, let me guess, this is a negative reflection on you. It's not that your daughter's hurt. No. You look bad. And not only is it a negative reflection on you, it's the shaming of emotion, which is the core of the narcissistic parent, which is why people who grow up with narcissistic parents literally will say, I don't know how I feel, or they'll say, I don't know how to feel. I'm like, there's no how to feel. You feel what you feel. They're like, I don't know. Right.

That to me is one of the greatest thefts of having a narcissistic parent is that emotional expressiveness part gets completely, completely hijacked because you're told, how dare you tell people you're not happy? And so you squelch it. And I mean, I think that the example you gave with your sister is really profoundly powerful is that I shudder to think how many children grew up like this and actually had tremendous capacity in a number of areas, academically and many other areas. But if they didn't do it as the parent wanted or perfectly, you're dumb, you're stupid, I can't believe you're my kid, on and on and on, whatever it is, or withdraw, which is even worse. If they see that the child isn't going to perform in the way they want, the parent will withdraw.

So it's like, you're out, you're not doing what I want. And then this internalization of, I don't know how to do this comes over the person, because they were never really seen and actually probably was quite good at math. It was probably quite solid a student. You become so terrified. So going to school and taking a test is a very different experience for a child with a narcissistic parent than another. The other kids are taking the test.

They're going to go home. They're loved and seen by both parents. They're going to be fine. But for a kid who was a narcissistic parent, the idea that a bad grade could come is absolutely catastrophic. The odds of all of these things become so much higher. And that really fosters this tremendous sense of anxiety. I mean, I just memories flooding as we're talking of just moments where you just never knew what to expect in that fear as being seven or eight being like, is this going to be the day that my dad beats me?

Like, I don't know. He just did that to my brother. But I did want to know, you know, so for me, I was the black sheep. I was the one. I was 100%. And I was, my brother had a drug problem. He was the oldest. My sister was never home. She just, she did the fuck this family. I'm out. Like, I don't want to be here. And so I got the brunt of my parents' divorce. and in and out and Joe was gone. That was it. I didn't, so I had to be the one to deal with all that. Then in my adulthood, when dating life was, I mean, I poster child for anxious attachment style, that's why this podcast became what it was.

Not only do I understand it, I know every feeling, every thought process that people go through of, I'm too much. And where did I learn that from? Yeah, because my dad didn't have the emotional capacity for me. So I always thought there was something wrong with me. Yeah, I want to come back to that one point, though. You said about the I'm too much. I'm so glad you said that.

because that is such a common experience for survivors of narcissistic parents who were told, ew, you almost disgust around your child's adolescent emotions, and that does get internalized as I'm too much. So when you encounter adult relationships, when you have a normal emotional experience, you almost introduced yourself as, hey, I'm just too much and you live to that role. and it's almost like the sense of I'm this disregulated sort of, you know, kind of messy person, and it's not at all true. So I'm really, really glad you made that point. Sorry to interrupt. No, please. It was it, it was something that it took me 32 years. My sister said, she was like, where'd you learn that? And it hit me. And I was like, dad, how could I not have

learned there's something wrong with me? Because anytime you do well, you're a good kid for now, until you say something. Like even, so for me, I was going to ask you about like when I, you know, my biggest fear all my life was being abandoned. Like to the point where my mom told me when I was a kid, I used to cry in the crib until I'd throw up. And when I asked her, what happened right before? She said, your father put you in the crib and would leave. And I was like, Mom, I was crying so hard I would throw up because I just wanted someone

to come get me and then you'd come get me. So I learned, okay, act out. That's how you're going to get his attention, right? That's the only way he's going to look at you. And so at my adult life, my dad called me one day a few weeks, like two years ago. I remember I was driving with my friend. and he said, oh, I'm so proud of you. You're so beautiful. Look, how amazing you look. And I was like, thanks, Dad. Like, I finally was feeling really good about myself, my dating life in Shambles still.

And he said, oh, so we're going to this wedding in September. And I said, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not going to my brother. And at the time, my siblings and I, we have a very, very confusing and shitty dyad. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not going to go. Like, we haven't spoken. And that was it. He was just like, who the fuck do you think you are? That's my son. Don't you give me an ultimatum. Go fuck yourself and hung up on me. And within seconds. Seconds. Seconds. And that narcissistic rage is coming out.

And to this day, he will still not take accountability because why would he? But I remember in that moment, that was my biggest fear being abandoned by my perception of, oh my God, like this is the end all be all. From that moment on, I didn't speak to him for a year and a half. And of course, I got my family saying, you know, your father misses you. And he says, you know, your father told us what happened. He said you screamed at him and you blew up on him. And he doesn't understand.

He's so confused. And I was like, I had someone there. I was like, thank God I had someone there. And I was wondering, you know, and I didn't speak to him for a year and a half. And I reached out to him and I tried to bridge the gap. And when I saw him recently, he tried to do the same shit and tried to interject. And I looked at him right in the eyes. And I said, I am no longer going to accept this.

You either speak to me with respect or the conversation is over. And of course, he started, who the fuck do you think you are? I'm your father. Fine, fine, fine, fine. But I wanted to know for the people out there scared, like you said, that get guilted to talk to their parents, say no. And like to me, the best decision I ever made was to not call him back when he said I was done because I faced my biggest fear. I lost what I was so scared to lose.

So dating at that point was no, after that, I completely changed. And then a year later, I met my partner. And I think, and since then it's like talk about somebody I never would have gone for. I married my father. My last relationship was textbook narcissist, just like my dad. So like no shock there. But for the folks out there who are guilted into setting boundaries or like wanting to, when do you know when to walk away and like how do you navigate as a child to set boundaries

with a parent who in your adult life still puts you down and still how do you know so you mean as an adult child not as a child exactly yes so here's where it gets tricky right I always say how do you know when to walk away you know I mean it is this is it is never going to be prescriptive because this is such a personal process I just absolutely I could not imagine being so a as to walk up to some, unless they were literally being physically abused, and that's a whole different conversation. Obviously, physical abuse, absolutely. Now I got to get to safety. But sadly, I think that physical, I know nothing. I know that emotional abuse causes as much wounding as physical. But at the end of the day, when they don't feel ready, they get very

anxious as somebody says, well, that's it. You can't have anything to do with them anymore, right? But the other side of that is a person would have a very rational response. I'm not going to speak to someone who's talking to me like this. Anyway, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. And they they lay down the boundary, as it were. And I don't consider going no-contacted boundary. I consider it in no-contextics. It's different. A boundary implies a little bit of backing and forthing.

It's like it's an interpersonal rule, if you will, right? Don't call me after nine. It's a boundary. I still have a relationship with you. You're just not supposed to call me after nine. It makes sense. So I think that what happens, though, is if a person were to take that stance,

they have to be able to put up with a pushback of, how dare you, who do you think you are, this is your father, this is family, they've been through this, they've been through that, he misses you, blah, blah, blah, right? And that can sometimes be too steep a slope for people to get over. They're like, I can absolutely have no contact with this person, but the pressure of other people that you might actually still view as stakeholders, that whose opinions still matter to you can still be really, really overwhelming. So I think that the challenges it is personal. And there's also that no contact isn't always forever.

There may be a period of time people say, I can't do this, and they end the contact and they build a life. Maybe meet a partner. Their career goes in the direction they want. They create, they move away physically. And then no contact is helping them by not hearing the negating voice, not having to deal with the unpredictability, not having to deal with the grenades, always blowing up all around them. When the life gets set, ideally the person's found healthy things in their life, they feel more protected in terms of if they have to interact with them. that person. I don't be family members get sick.

Family events happen. Something may throw you into that purview again, but you're now changed. So you're going to interact with them differently. I'm not saying you're not going to be triggered. I'm not saying you're not going to feel uncomfortable when that rage starts coming again. But none of this is easy when it's a parent, because as you said, there's a child version of us that even when we're 50, 60 years old, if that parent is still around, that impending tension in the room, it's as though your eight-year-old self has taken your

over. You're like, wait a minute, I'm a really competent professional in my life, and I'm trembling like a leaf, and I'm trying to sue the situation like I did as a little kid. These are old, ancient scripts. And so that's why, you know, it's for different people, it's different things. Some people, it's no contact. Some people, it's more disengaged. Some people also feel very invested in protecting someone still in the system. So, for example, you might have one narcissistic parent, one parent who's not narcissistic, who you care deeply about. They remained married. You still want to have contact with that parent and the price of admission, sadly, is still the terrible parent. But there might have needed to be some period of no contact so you could sort of reconstitute yourself and sort of feel as though

you could interact with that system. So I think there's never the quote unquote right moment. I think it's the moment where you feel it and then honor that. And don't shame yourself if you can't or won't. Don't shame yourself if you start doing it and you go back. And it's really unfortunate it because the enablers, because most families, most people won't get this. They want to maintain the status quo. They want to maintain the image of we're a happy family that they will. And in that way of thinking, when there's this whole vision of, I want to maintain the happy family, I want to maintain the illusion or the delusion, the narcissist always wins.

Because they're the one who, they're the one who's doing the harm and the delusion means, let's pretend they're not doing any harm. That's the thing. They always win in that collective is, let's protect the whole vision. kind of game. Oh, so perfectly said. I think for, I mean, for me, I remember when I made that, like, when I made that decision to not call back, because he was waiting for me to, it was, I remember crying and looking at my friend and I was like, this is it. I was like, I know, because like I was, we had like money involved and things like that. And I was like, I don't want to do this. And like you said,

it took me a year and a half and I had an amazing partner. And I remember when I called my dad, my partner was in the room and he was holding my hand while I was on the phone just to make sure that I would be okay. Because I knew that space away from him helped me, come the woman that I became. And the irony is he's so proud of my career. And I'm like, thank God, he's never listened to a fucking episode of mine because he wouldn't be anymore if he actually knew how I became what I became was, you know, hey, I turned pain into purpose. But I think for anybody out there, like you said, there is no right time. There is no, like, the stars aren't going to align. And all of a sudden you're going to be like, this is it. For me, I was thrown into it. And I was

like, you know what, now is a good time than any. And to make the decision to come back, what was incredible was when I saw, I didn't see my dad in two years, when I saw him again, this was over Christmas, like two months ago, for the first time ever, I was so aware about my body. The minute he started opening up his mind, I was like, oh my God, my chest, I, like you said, I went right back to being a child. And I did want to ask, you know, because I think a struggle is like, so you have the narcissistic parent, we understand that. Can the siblings be the flying monkeys? Because I find, like, for instance, like my brother, I don't think he's a true narcissist. I love my brother. I love my sister, but my brother is a gaslighter.

He's very manipulative. He'll do that. You're the one screaming. I'm not saying, I'm very calm. And he's learned a lot of that behavior. He defends my father to the hill and, oh, so what? Dad hit us when we were kids. We still had food, right?

That kind of rationalization. How do you even handle a sibling like that? For me, personally, I'm in no contact with my brother right now because that's what we need. We can't have a conversation without it turning to me going, okay, I'm done with this. Like, talk to me with respect. But I wanted to understand a little bit. but more about the dynamic of the siblings as well, because we know the parent, but what about the people on your playing field? So the siblings are such a messy, messy barrel, right? So in many, many family

systems, and this is where people are always saying, well, do narcissistic parents always create narcissistic kids? Obviously not, because if you look at any set of siblings, odds are there might be one narcissistic sibling, one very anxious sibling. There might be one sibling with some other issue. And it's interesting because, you know, we talk about sort of the various outcomes for children in these circumstances, right? Anxiety is probably the most. common by far. If it's severe enough, narcissistic abuse, we might see complex trauma. But we will also sometimes see rebellion. So some kids will rebel, substance use, sex, not doing well in school. So it's often self-defeating rebellion, right? In a way, either you're getting the message,

nothing I do is going to work, so I might as well do what I want, or I'm going to get noticed this way, or it becomes a way to regulate. So that's another way people might go. And then some become narcissistic, right? So these are all conceivable paths. I actually think that becoming narcissistic might be the least frequent path of all, you know, compared to all of the others. Because, again, it's less likely as a personality style, certainly not a majority personality style in the population or anything. So the siblings, siblings are tough because you have this kind of chaos created, everyone was trying to survive in the system, right? It was all about safety. And what's so unfortunate is that when you have a narcissistic parent, right, and the focus becomes safety, safety,

safety. When all your work focus on is safety, I'll give you an example. If I was hungry and I didn't have enough food and I didn't have enough money, I'm going to eat non-nutricious food so I'm not starving. Over time, I'm not going to starve, but I'm going to get sick. Does that make sense? It's the same thing in a narcissistic family. When you're always focusing on safety and survival, You're not doing the larger scale development of identity, of sense of internal values, of sense of self, of sense of possibility. That stuff does not get to develop in the same way. And if it does, it's often in the service of the narcissistic parent. Someday I'm going to have a job and I'm going to be really important and then I'll be loved.

It's not the, I'm a person and I have the right to pursue something I care about and I'm allowed to be an interest in what I want. And all that's gone. It's all safety. And when everyone's scrambling for safety, no one's at their best. And where we see this play out is sometimes there can be a lot of tension among siblings. Sometimes there can be gorgeous alliances between siblings too. It really depends on the temperaments of the children and the family, right? You will sometimes see, I mean, listen, the patterns you're describing, gaslighting,

manipulation, revering the narcissistic person, I would want to lift that hood and see, is there empathy under there? Is this person always entitled? Are they grandiose? Are they arrogant? I mean, you might be closer into that zone of an antagonistic personality than you think. I mean, I understand you may not want to think that, but don't worry about the label. The behavior is a problem.

And you're like, the behavior's a problem and I'm not going to interact with this, right? So I think that the tensions among siblings get rough when the siblings don't all see it clearly. If you have a bunch of siblings who all see it, this parent is narcissistic, you might actually get some, again, you could really see a collaboration and a cooperation. amongst the siblings who may create a united front. That rarely happens because narcissistic parents are so triangulating. They create these factions. There's a lot of sort of back talk. There's a lot of gossip.

There's a lot of, you're better than her. You don't want to be like her. You're my son. You're the best. There's a golden child. There's a scapego. And because of all these different roles and all of this triangulation and people being turned against each other, which helps the narcissistic person hold power.

And if you have an abusive narcissistic parent, which I think all of them are, somebody, you often want to be close to that source of power, so you might even feel like you can control it a little and not have it be so unpredictable. That invariably is going to create tension in the system and ongoing tension into adulthood. And some people don't want to see the pattern for what it is. And so when you have a sibling who is staunchly defending

the behavior of a narcissistic parent, it can really mean that there's almost no path forward because they're literally defending someone who's harmed you and it really becomes impossible. This is where I see a lot of families end up breaking up. You see estrangement and you see no contact because it's one thing if a sibling recognizes I had a different experience than you. I also know you were hurt and that wasn't okay.

There's a path forward. But if somebody saying this is our parent and they weren't so bad and this and that and they fed us and all this, I don't know that there's really ever a path forward because you feel so unseen. And not only unseen, the thing that harmed you is unseen. and that's a really psychologically precarious place. So it gets messy. Siblings are messy and it can be very hard. Some people will say their narcissistic sibling

was actually one of the most painful narcissistic relationships of their lives. And I can think off the hand of about 10 people for whom I would say whenever I work with people, we sort of make out a tree and they'll have more than, everyone who was a narcissistic person in in their life has more than one, right? But we try to zone in on sort of patient zero. Who was the most profound one? It's not always the parent. it's sometimes a sibling.

I'm always surprised by that because they'll say, I get my parent really affected me as a child. But when we look at it cumulatively over the lifetime, it was my sibling that started having more and more and more of that impact. And they'll say they'll really clock the sibling as the narcissistic relationship that did them the most harm. It's crazy how, as you're speaking, like I've never felt so seen. It's wild because my mom used to always say that. Your father triangulates.

He loves to come and he'll call me and tell me, your sister. is a piece of shit. She hasn't fucking called me. And I'm like, but didn't you just speak to her three days ago? And then all of a sudden he'll go to my brother. Then he'll go to me. And then all of a sudden, he'll leave and go, okay, you guys figure it out. And then we're dealing with that. And it's become, luckily my sister finally made the admission. Dad's a narcissist. And we've now been able to talk about things. Like you said, we've been able to come. Because at first she would say my mom was. And I was like, Jamie, I love you, but you're so far off. And she had like a life coach that told her that. Luckily, she went to a therapist and now understands. Whereas my brother doesn't, he doesn't need

therapy. He doesn't think he needs anything. He's the one who went to it. He did the drug program when he was 18. He's fine. All of us are the ones holding on to the past. We just want to move on. Dad's a great guy. Dad's so nice now. Dad's helpful. And for me, yeah, it sucks to have to tell your sibling, I don't think we can have a relationship right now, even though it's no, just talk to me. Just talk to me. I have issues with you. And it's like, yeah, this isn't about you. But sometimes I think, like you said, not having a relationship is what you need to do for your own mental health. because I don't have the bandwidth to now deal with. I had to deal with dad and mom and I don't have the bandwidth to deal with your shit

when you're not willing to at least go to get help and talk to somebody. That's when I think, like you said, where do we have hope for now? Yeah, and I'd also say that that's the other issue is that if a person is not in good faith seeking out any kind of help, trying to address it, you know, saying like, okay, I'm not getting it right all the time. However, I think all of us are willing to show grace to someone who will, catch themselves and say, I didn't do that right. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm working on it. I'm working on it. And you really see them making the effort. I think many of us will meet that halfway. But if it's the

ongoing manipulation, and there's a choice. Remember, some people don't have a choice. They're in family systems where we put them in a really dangerous or precarious spot to end contact. They need the family for, I mean, there might be a financial relationship. We don't know. And that's why I'm saying that not everyone can. And it is, it just then is having realistic expectations about the It's about not getting into stuff with these folks because you're just going to get nowhere fast. And it is that I know people often think like radical acceptance. Oh, Dr. Romney, it's so hard. I understand it's hard.

And it's often not enough. Radical acceptance doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. Radical, like you said, the eight-year-old child comes out to play when we're, you know, when we're with these folks, it hurts. It's not that it doesn't hurt. It's honestly that you're less surprised by it. And that you can sort of, you know, you can definitely then you can make decisions like you might say, I'm going through a really hard time at work. This is not the time for me to spend time with this person.

This is not going to be good for me. And to make those decisions tactically, I'm going, it's interesting. Even myself recently, I've been going through, again, the book has released and all that goes with it and all the, you know, fragile self-esteem stuff that comes up. And there are some narcissistic-y people in my life. And, I mean, I love them, but I'm choosing not to speak with them because I do not have the bandwidth to have them even make a potential of a small dig.

I know I can't do it. that's the kind of thing where I'm saying is we can make a tactical decision like that. Like I'll call them in a couple of weeks when some of the storm is settled, but I'm in the worst of it now, and this is not going to do me any good. And I think those sorts of decisions are as close to self-care as one can get in these relationships. 100%. My brother has like crazy ADHD, and I knew it. He called my sister, and I was like, it was a four-hour call of him screaming at her

and yelling and complaining and her crying. That was when I said, I said, you know what? I don't have the bandwidth right now. I'm so busy. I'm so focused on me. I just don't have it. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with someone for, I find that to be very powerful to say, I don't have the bandwidth right now.

It's not that I don't want to. I just want to give this the attention it deserves. And I'm not present for that right now. So I hope. And then the last thing. So one last segment, not even, and there's quite plenty of questions I have for you on this, but like we spoke about the narcissistic parent. We have the siblings.

Now what a lot of people asked about is how do you co-parent with a narcissist? I know. I'm learning from my poor mother's experience like it was hell on earth. My dad would take, he would segment us. He would take us away and talk shit about my mom. He would come in and out. He would break up with her, go back to his ex. And then when she would move on, he would want her back.

And then it was five years of that. And finally my mom said, I'm done. And it was continuous to be hell. But like, how do you actually co-parent? And then a link, a lot of people were worried about like, how do I make sure that my child doesn't? Like, how do you support the child? Because my mom didn't.

I love her to the move. and back, she didn't, we didn't go to therapy. Nobody was there for us. You know, nobody helped us. I'd love to learn a little bit more about co-parenting and helping your child in that way. Right. So I think that the, the co-parenting, I think it's almost a bad word. You're single parenting with an elephant on your back. That's what you're doing. I mean, co-parenting implies some form of collaboration, right? And I think it's one of those cozy words that the courts use to help them make themselves feel better about it. You're not co-parenting. This is a mess. You are parenting while somebody's sabotaging you. That's not co-parenting. That's parenting while someone's sabotaging you, right? And so I would say that it is a, there is,

there's whether you stay or you go, it's a little bit different, obviously when you stay in the relationship versus when you split up their relationship, right? Especially when these kids are minors. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. When people stay, right, I say to them, you go one focus and one focus only. This marriage, this is done. This relationship is done.

There is nothing here. And some people will say tactically, they are choosing to stay in this so-called relationship because they don't want to deal with what family court's going to do. And family court invariably almost always, probably 95% of the time makes bad decisions around this. Because they're not allowed to include narcissism in their decision-making. They won't even hear the word, right? So they're not, they're making a decision. Family court is about parents' rights, not.

children's rights. That's a fact. The child is an asset, a thing that is getting sliced and diced up, as per the court. That's how it's always been done. So let's just start there. And so some parents say, I don't want my kids with this person. It's just going to mess them up too much. So I'm going to stay in this absolutely soul-killing relationship so I can get my kids to at least 16, 17, maybe 18, and then we're done. There's no more. Now, that's impossible for some people. They'll say, first of all, I understand why that. They're saying, I'm going about to sacrifice. 20 years of my life, because that's really what it would be, you know, in a relationship where you're constantly invalidated. Some people feel comforted by the decision. Some people throw themselves

whole cloth into parenting their kids, but you have to constantly remind yourself, this other parent is like a big nuisance that's in this house. They won't help. They won't be useful. In a way, at best, it's like having someone in the house so the kids won't set fire to the house. You know, so it's like, because you had to go and run an errand, there's another human being around. But it's terrible. You feel like you're in an artificial reality. your authenticity, all of that. So how do you co-parent with that? Put the kids first, model empathy,

bring as much routine into the process as you can. You have to be the heavy as the parent. You have to be the loving parent. You have to be the routine parent. You have to stay on top of the dentist and the orthodontist and the school and the, you're doing every, you're a single parent with a nuisance in your house. That's really what it is.

And it has to be, because the thing, the stumbling block I get to people is like, but they're not doing their part. and I have to say to them, they're never going to do their part. We'll go 20 weeks in a row. I'm like, they are never. That's not fair. I said, I know it's not fair.

I never said this was fair. The only fair in this is now at least you're with your kids all the time. That's one. Many people, though, split up and understandably so. In those cases, they'll say like that transition between homes, the kids get really agitated. It's very uncomfortable. It's very trying. And so a lot of it, your time is sort of, again, consistency, empathy, availability,

emotionally nurturing these kids. I mean, listen, if you, and you can't, and you can never talk smack about the narcissistic parent. Now, if your kids say, oh, my gosh, dad's doing this or mom's doing that, they're telling you things, you can always approach them with. How are you feeling about that? I'm so mad. I'm so mad.

I understand you're angry. You know, you weren't heard. You weren't seen. You're validating them almost as a therapist would, but you're not saying, and your mom's a terrible person. Right. You don't do that part. The other parents doing that left and right, by the way.

All day. You have to play a clean game because the kids are onto it. The kids are already confused. And they will one day remember that my mother did not speak badly about him. But where a lot of parents don't get it right is they overcorrect. They not only don't speak badly, they don't validate the kids' experience. So when the kids saying, I'm so frustrated, well, they're your dad. No.

I can understand why that was frustrating. You were talking to him and he wasn't listening. I'm so sorry you want to talk about it, right? The kid may or may not, but at least you validated their experience or frustration rather than, they're your dad. That's not an answer. And that's the mistake a lot of people make. So, but it's treacherous and people who are co-parenting with a narcissistic person,

if they're able to access it, even if it's once a month, they need to be in therapy. You need someone who gets this or you will lose your mind. And it will, a lot of people in these situations feel a tremendous sense of guilt and shame that, that I feel terrible that this is the person I chose to have kids with. And now my kids have this legacy to have to deal with. And I understand that. And it's not like you didn't set out to do this, but those feelings are real and they need to be worked through. I always go back to this.

You need one good parent on the job. And those kids will generally be okay. I used to say that all the time. I was like, if without our mom, I'm like, Lord knows what my mom is just like such a ball of love. And like just, but she was a child. and she didn't know what she was doing. Never spoke ill about my father. Like you said, my dad was doing that all day.

But I did want to know, like, for, if you're dealing with somebody like, I have a client who specifically was like, please ask this for me. Her ex is interjecting in her new relationships. Every time she tries to move on, he contacted the guy and he's talked. And it's like, how do you handle that? Like, do you just deal with lawyers? Do you set boundaries? Like, how can you do that when this person is hell bent on pretty much ruining your life because he wants her back and she's refusing? Right.

So this is where it gets tricky. And I'm going to tell you that the legal system ain't going to be that protective, right? You know, the courts aren't handing out protective orders like candy. You have to, there have to be, cases have to be substantiated almost to a fault in the sense that people who are even at risk aren't always able to get protective orders. And then from there, human beings are allowed to contact other human beings. She's in the unfortunate position of almost having to, I mean, inoculate people to say this is what's coming down the pike. And not every new partner is going to be up to the challenge. Some people say, this is too messy.

too much drama, then those aren't her people. Unfortunately, these do leave these kinds of messy legacies in our past of luggage and baggage that need to be dealt with. Once this person's children are over a certain age, it might be easier. But, you know, electronic communication being what it is, is, there's always going to be the possibility of that. But as long as there's minor children, there's often a much more robust information network, if you will. Once the kids are adults, your life doesn't have to be shared with this person anymore. And in fact, in fact, back, once the youngest child turns 18, this person would have the right to go fully no contact with this person in perpetuity. It may not always be easy on the kids, though, weddings,

graduations, all the nonsense of life, right? But it's hard. I mean, I don't even have a thing to offer there, right? Because that's what happens. And I think in a way, I've known people to go through this. And they've had to tell partners, this is what's coming. And I understand if you don't want to be on this ride, because it's awful. Sometimes you meet a good person and says, I'm up to the challenge. Some people think they're up to the challenge and they're actually not. I mean, because remember, the new partner can block the number and all those things can happen. But if they're not, you really want to make sure that they're not sort of sucker punched. Like they're not out of the blue getting this bizarre kind of message. And I know that we're always like in dating 101 school. Don't

talk ill about your ex. But I think if you're in one of those situations, it doesn't have to be like a sort of a gossip session, but you really sit with someone and say, I need to give you sort of the complete 360 picture of what happened in this prior relationship. And I'm not proud of it and I'm unhappy about it. But I also know it may come back to sort of sting us. And so I want you to have the context. I think it can be done in an adult manner that doesn't feel gossipy and disparaging, but rather give someone a very realistic picture. And so my last question would be kind of to piggyback on that. Would in-laws kind of be the same kind of deal? You know, because I see my partner, like when he met my dad, his father, my partner's father is a narcissist. He hasn't spoken to him in 15 years.

And so when he met my dad, you could see, I could feel his, his fists under the table. And he was like, he even said, he was like, I can't be around this man. And I had to say, I was like, but he's my father. He's in town where at dinner. Like, what do you mean you can't be around him? That is really, lots of people ask like, yeah, is handling the in-laws similar to like you were just talking about with the relationship? Narcissistic in laws are a real, real problem. And you know, you and I have enough cultural overlap to know that it's, can be even more pronounced in certain cultures where in-laws really take a position of primacy, especially when they're the male partner's parents, right? And so, and we'll exercise that

narcissism brutally on the person that their child marries. So it's the same old narcissism rules. The challenge becomes this. Narcissistic in-laws are manageable if the spouse, if the child of the narcissistic in-laws, the person you're married to, gets it. Yeah. So then you could be a united front. But if they're still in thrall with their narcissistic parents and worship the narcissistic mother and all that other stuff, forget about it. Now you're dealing with three messes or two messes, not just one. And they will be a united front against you. Then it really becomes protecting kids, recognizing it's going to be miserable, setting boundaries. I have worked with many people on this. Usually in culturally, like South Asian, Middle Eastern, and cultures that are more collectivistic,

where in-laws hold a disproportionate, you know, kind of a disproportionate power, if you will. And it's a, it's horrific because it's in many ways, especially the less empowered partner is, I mean, you think about traditionally back in the day what would happen. I mean, historically, I'd say only two generations back, usually the daughter would be shipped off to the in-laws, in essence, in servitude. There's no other way to describe it. So if that's the precedent, not only two generations ago, you can imagine that some of those sort of sprinkles still last. And, and many times the narcissistic in-law, narcissistic mother-in-laws

are notorious for this will believe that the partner has stolen the child away. They literally, that's their schema. You stole my son. You stole my child. You're like, what the actual. So it's so messed up. It's so enmesh that if your partner gets it, then great. You're probably in a better space, it's still going to be awful. But if they don't get it, it is much, much more treacherous. There have to be the realistic expectations. You do not share with them. You kind of keep, you pay your cards close to your chest. You're very, very aware that there's no path forward with these people. Oh, man. Dr. Romney, can I just, can I just say thank you? Just thank you aside from all the work that you do and for everything. Thank you for, thank you for this. Thank you for this conversation.

because I'm emotional in the best way possible because you really do make people feel seen hurt and understood and so validated that we're not crazy. It's not that I was a kid or there's something wrong with me. It's, wow, okay, I had some shady cards dealt. And now it is my responsibility to work through that so that now we don't continue this generation. So thank you so, so much for everything that you've shared.

My pleasure. Thank you for such a robust conversation. And one that I really think is, I mean, And the way you describe things, it's rare that I hear someone hit it. Like, you're not talking about this clinically. You're talking about this experientially. And from your seat and from me being able to have this conversation, people are going to feel very heard.

I felt very hurt in this conversation. So I really want you to know that there's a power when we can share this vulnerably. So people recognize at a minimum, we look back with less shame on our childhoods when we recognize other people walked the same track. 100%. And everybody, I'm going to have your book link. go get it. Yes, please.

Buy it. Buy it. It's not you. Buy it. I don't post about it too. We will get people to read this because they need to. And Dr. Romney, where can people find you? I'll have everything linked, but where can they find you?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can find me at my website, Dr. Romney.com. Please buy the book. Anywhere books are sold, please, please, please, get it now. We also have people who want to do a deeper dive. We have a healing program for people who experience narcissistic abuse, a monthly program. You go to my website. You'll see a link to that there. I have other books on narcissism, too, if you want to do even deeper dive.

This one's really focused on healing, so this is a great place to start. I have daily YouTube content, and if you go to our YouTube page, it's all organized, so you can really find, I mean, we have probably 1,400 videos at this point. So you're going to find it's like a library, really it is. So you can find that there. So we have a lot of stuff. Go to my website. It's all sort of cataloged there. read the book and we're going to have a lot of interesting ongoing stuff related to it like book clubs and all of that. So stay tuned. So those folks, we have, you know, we have reading guide available on my website, 50 pages to sort of enhance the book itself. So there's lots of things, lots of places you can

go with it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'm so excited for this episode to come out and just thank you again for everything that you've been doing. Of course. Thank you.