The Sabrina Zohar Show - 79: Beyond "Yes": Breaking the Cycle of People-Pleasing as a Trauma Response with Matthias Barker

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Sabrina sits down with Matthias Barker for a second time to dive into the detrimental effects of people-pleasing, a common trauma response where individuals regulate others to feel safe themselves. Unlike genuine empathy, people-pleasing stems from fear and often involves manipulation. Barker emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and confronting dysfunction rather than avoiding it, as true safety doesn't come from constant monitoring out of fear. He advises distinguishing between needs and anxiety, advocating for acceptance and mutual attunement in relationships. Personal experiences shared by both Sabrina and Barker highlight the necessity of building a solid relationship foundation, addressing big emotions, and helping partners express their needs authentically without resorting to people-pleasing behaviors. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Please support our sponsors! Go 20% off your first order and free shipping with Chomps HERE! Save $10 on your first purchase at StoryWorth HERE! Get 10% off your first month of Betterhelp HERE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another week. I am excited. We're talking about some pretty important stuff today. We have a very special guest, Matthias Barker, who is one of my favorite trauma therapist and specialist and he's just such an incredible human being.

And we have a really big chat today. And today we are actually talking about people pleasing and being the cool girl or boy and not having needs and trying so hard to just choose me, pick me, and how detrimental that is to not only just dating relationships and experiences, but like life and general friendships, relationships at work, anything, any interpersonal relationships. It's so detrimental because boundaries are just super fucking important. So I'm really excited today we go over all of that. And of course, some housekeeping as always, please don't forget to rate and review the show.

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But really rating the show is super, super fucking important. So please don't forget. And as always, guys, if you want ad free listening to every episode of Do the Work, as well as two bonus episodes a month that you guys also get to choose, It's asked me anything. Me and Tech guy go over all your questions that you guys write in. And you get to suggest topics and episodes that you guys want to hear for our subscribers only for a measly seven bucks the month. It helps us support the show. It gives you guys something back. Such a win-win. So you guys can check all that out in the show notes. If you want to work with me, the course is still out. It's so fucking amazing. We have another course coming out soon with my favorite Brit Frank that is coming out in the next month. And that's going to be on breakups and no contact and how to really detox after and get yourself into a place where you're ready to.

to date. So that's coming soon. But right now the foundation course is out. None of these, by the way, it's not an upsell. They're all individual. They're all for wherever you're at your journey. You don't need anything besides the course. There's no books that you need to get. There's no do this to get this. It's just merely here. Here is the information that you guys here. Now here's a way to implement all of that information. And in the foundation course, we go over dating patterns, limiting beliefs, inner child work, meditations. You have access to this for life and you can come back anytime you need it. So everything as always, guys, Sabrinazoher.com, or in the show. notes, you could check it out. And so yeah, I'm just so excited. Thank you guys. It's always for everything. You make

this the best part of my fucking day, my week, my month, and my year. So I'm so grateful for you guys. And thank you, as always, for allowing me to be me so that you guys can show up as you. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hi, Matthias. Welcome back to do the work podcast. Hello. I'm so happy to be here again. This is wonderful. Likewise, it was such a pleasure to have you for the first. And I was like, we need you alone so that we can talk about stuff that you post all the time that I am so obsessed with. We're going to talk about the meat and potatoes today about like needs and dating, being the cool girl and guy, people pleasing all of that. But before we jump into all of that, could you please introduce yourself to anybody who is new to you, new to the podcast, and it just isn't familiar with how amazing your work is? Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm Matthias. I'm a psychotherapist. I'm based in Nashville, Tennessee.

I make videos on the internet about healing from trauma and relationships and some couples stuff, some like parenting stuff. I kind of just touch on all the relationships in your life that are probably the most important and then kind of getting to the root of the stuff that we're holding so that we can deal with that, heal that so we can show up our best selves and the relationships that matter most. That's all the stuff I'm super interested in. So everything from dating and relationships to your folks, I'm here for all of it. Oh, I love it.

Well, and that's why I was so excited to have you on because I think what we're going to going to be talking about the crossover. Like, it's such an interesting when we think about people pleasing. When we think about being the cool girl, not having needs. Like, I can tell you firsthand, I played that part for years. The like, I'm not, me, me be upset by like what you want. No, absolutely not. Like, if you're going to text me at two in the morning asking me, like, this was a real story. You can text me at two in the morning telling me to come over because you're bored. I will literally walk down the street in Manhattan at two in the morning to come to your house to hang out with you for two hours and then walk my ass home, feel terrible about myself, hate myself at the end of it, but I'll do it because

you want me to. And I don't have needs. So I'm excited to dive in because I think a lot of, I don't think a lot of us really understand where we learn these behaviors from. And like, I know me, narcissistic father, people pleasing mother, like I grew up not knowing what boundaries were. I grew up not understanding how to express your needs. Like that just meant you were too much and there's something wrong with you. So I really wanted to just kind of start off overarching. I'm like, what is people pleasing? Like, how does that actually show up so that people can understand really what that actually means? Yeah. Well, I think that we have a lot of different ideas of what people pleasing means, like when you see it rolling around social media or different blogs or different videos. And so I think

the way that I think about people pleasing is actually a trauma response. And I think some people wear it as like a badge of honor, like, oh, I'm a people pleaser, almost like it's synonymous with I'm super empathetic or I'm just a nice person and I'm always just there for people. But what I want to emphasize, you know, for my viewers or even right here, it's like people pleasing is when you're showing up for the other person in a way that regulates them, that keeps them calm, that keeps them at, you know, homeostasis, whatever, so that you can feel okay. And that's actually a pretty important part of it. Because when we think about real, like, genuine mature empathy, empathy is about really attending to the whole person and seeing where they're at and like attuning to, having compassion

for the whole. But you don't do that in people pleasing. People pleasing. You're only looking for red flags and you're looking for things that, oh, do they like me? Are they frustrated with me? Like, do they want this for me? Like, if I don't do this, are they going to be frustrated and I want to kind of pull back? Or like, if I did this, would that make them like me more?

Like, everything is viewed through the lens of what can I do in reference to this person to keep me safe, to keep me liked, to keep this secure? And that is actually only like 20% of the information that's relevant in a relationship. And that's kind of mind blowing to folks who are people pleasers like, what do you mean? I'm like, all this attention to detail that you think like, oh, I'm such an in tune person, I'm paying such close attention to him. I'm like, you're only paying attention to maybe 20% of it. Because once you zoom out from just the stuff that keeps me safe, you start to see that there's

whole, you know, worlds. There's tons of nuances to what makes this person unique and lovable and great or problematic and someone that you probably need to set boundaries against, whatever, that you don't have for if you're only looking to the lens of your trauma. So that's how I start the conversation on people pleasing. Which I really love that. And I'm glad you brought that up because I really, you know, I've seen

like you said, we've seen a lot of things on the internet about people pleasing and we've had a lot of conversations just in the ether about it. And one thing I think, I don't like saying it this way, but like one thing I have heard a lot and I would love your take on it is you know, I think a lot of people look at this as like you said,

I'm just empathetic. I just care so much about this person. And then we start to look and say, is that it? Like, genuinely, because listen, I'm, I'm very empathetic and I care about people, but I also know when I'm being taken advantage of or things like that. Is this, to use the word manipulative, like, how do you feel about that word being associated with people pleasing? Because I have heard it a lot. And I, I would like your thoughts on that because I don't really technically know how I feel, but I can understand it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, I made a video and got in trouble because I called people pleasing, manipulative, and people didn't like that idea. But here's kind of the full,

rounded out version of that. It's that when people say, oh, I care too much, I don't take that immediately at face value, because what I want to see is how much fear is underneath that? Because if it's fear that's driving this intense amount of care, then that's actually not from the wellspring of just your altruistic spirit. That's not just you being a compassionate, sweet person. Now, I'm not saying you're not a compassionate sweet person. You very well, maybe. But it's coming from a different place. If it's coming from an anxious place, if it's coming from a overwhelmed kind of like half controlling, half needy, half anxious, like if it's coming from this chaotic place in you, then maybe your expression of caring too much is actually more about trying

to feel okay in this relationship and doing what you need to do for the relationship to feel okay to you. And that, I think just by definition, as a version of of manipulation. It's not malicious, right? So when I say manipulative, we think like narcissistic, kind of like, you have this, this like gain that you're trying to get out of it. I'm not saying you're trying to like manipulate the circumstance to the other person's fore end. I'm saying that just by definition, you're not being forthcoming. You do have an ulterior motive. Your ulterior motive is to stay safe and make sure this relationship feels secure. And if what you're hearing me say right now feels like, well, is there any other way? Like, what do you talk? Like, what's the alternative here? It would be

that you love the other person for their own sake. You want to, you want to serve the other person. You want to go over at 2 a.m. to see how they're doing. Not because that's the kind of person you are, because you're the kind of dependable friend. You want them to know that you're there for them. None of those. It's because you want them to be okay, because they need someone at 2 a.m. Because you love them. Like the whole focus isn't on how they're perceiving you. The focus is on how they're doing. It's like you are kind of almost an afterthought. It's not self-focused. And that, I think, when we really get underneath of it,

animates a lot of our moments where we kind of pride ourselves where, oh, I care so much. And I'm like, yeah, if you are kind of like the title line, like in all of your thoughts around how you care for people, then you might need to take a step back and say like, oh, how am I expressing care out of a fearful place? And if so, that's probably more self-focused than it should be. I'm not going to lie. I agree with you. Like, I saw that video and I remember seeing it and feeling in my gut. I was like, ooh, he went there and I'm happy. He went there. Because like, I know even personally, like, my mom came to town. It was the first time she met my partner. And my mom, people please it.

I mean, all day. Like I, it sometimes, like, my sister learned it. And they'll just say yes. And then, like, you can see the resentment build up. You can see the anger. And it's like, I wish you just said no. You know, like I wish you just said that this didn't work for you. And my partner said something. And my mom, I was about to respond. And my mom, I was about to respond. and my mom stopped me and she goes, Sabrina, don't say anything. He's upset. You don't want to make him even more upset. Okay, Sabrina, you don't want to be too much.

Now, just keep it in. And I just like, I looked at my mom and I was like, oh, no, no ma'am. I was like, I will absolutely not do that. And like, even she stopped. She was like, did I just say that? Like, she was so conditioned to just go right into, oh, my God, he's upset, make him happy. And I was like, now, do I understand? Oh, she's almost 70, that many years of thinking that I need to make sure that they are okay

because then I'm okay. And she'll always say, as long as my kids are okay, I'm okay. And I'm like, but mom, what about you as a person? And that's where I then start to say, I'm like, so this isn't actually about the other person being okay. It really does come back to you don't want to get yelled at. You don't want to get screamed at. You don't want to deal with the repercussions of the other person not being happy because, rightfully so, when you have a narcissistic husband who rages and screams and you never know what to expect,

the thought processes be a good girl. And so for that, I think I can imagine a lot of people resonate with that. And I think my question would be, if you're somebody who resonates with that kind of thought process, where do you even begin? Like in those moments, what can you even do? Because that was a question a lot of people ask is like, sometimes I'm too far in. I'm like, I don't even know I'm doing it. What's a good place to start for somebody who exhibits that kind of people pleasing behavior?

Well, I just, I want to say to anyone listening, like, it's okay to have that me. and to want to feel safe. That's not a bad thing. Like, I'm not saying that's anything maniacal in you or bad in you, that you do feel this deep desire to not want them to be mad at you, to want them to like you, to want things to be okay. None of those desires are wrong. I guess what I'm saying is there's a different way of expressing

and acting on those fears and desires. That actually isn't just what's best for you, but it's what's best for the other person because there's this mirage of, I have to, like, make sure that they're not angry and make sure that they're okay, because that's what's best for both of us. That's what's best for everyone when I kind of want to turn the lights on for a second and say, like, sometimes what's most helpful is that other people experience the repercussions

of their poor behavior. And if you're somebody who has never expressed to anyone in your life that you've been offended or angry or put off by what someone says, you've likely grown up in the world where doing so actually created a really dangerous situation for you growing up, maybe dangerous physically, maybe just dangerous emotionally. that when you spoke up and you're like, mom, I don't like that, you got punished in a really intense way that taught you, okay, none of that. None of this, like, my opinion, when it grates against the status quo, I'm going to shove that way down because every time my opinion

grates against, I don't know, the flow of what's happening, I get hurt, I get made fun of, I get minimized, I get ignored. And so that taught me that's all going down, down, down. I love that you said that because I think something that I've even like with the situation with my mom, when I even asked her like, what were your intentions for that? She was like, well, I don't want him to be upset. And I was like, okay, but you're doing this to keep the peace. You're not doing it because you're like, hey, you know, this is on me. I don't need to bring this up to my partner. This is something I need to go cool off. Like, that's a very different story than, you know, I think that's a really good even place to start. Is like, am I doing this because I'm scared of a reaction or repercussion or

something like that. Or am I doing the let me, oh, I don't want to say anything to them because actually, no, this is really a me thing. I don't need to involve my partner when I'm just feeling anxious because somebody down the street just said something rude to me. I don't now need to take it out on them. And when I really brought that up, my mom was like, wow, I really see what you mean. And I ended up talking to my partner having an incredible conversation, bringing to a light, his awareness is so that he could now talk to his therapist about it and look into it. And it ended up bringing us closer. And I think it's so important to, you know, be able to at least be in touch with yourself, a scosh, to be able to take a second.

Like I love putting a speed bump of like, I don't need to react. I can take a second. Like you said, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be safe. Of course, please. I encourage everybody. Yeah, come on. But at the expense of connection and the relationship and all of that, then to me that's too expensive because I want safety authentically.

I don't want it forced to wear. Then it's eggshells. constantly wondering because you're then, I feel like you're almost emotionally monitoring people because you're really just trying to regulate and keep everything copacetic. Oh, yeah. But is that coming from a place of authenticity or is that coming out of, like you said, fear? Because I know for me, that was my childhood. You just never knew when the, it was going to happen.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and one thing that I can hear might even come up for someone listening is like, well, I don't know how to like, you know, have those assertive moments to like stick up for myself, to say no, to resist trying to smooth things over because I just feel like I'm being so mean when I'm sticking up for myself or saying what I need or withdrawing. Like it just feels so mean. And what I like to do when that, you know, kind of, I don't know, boundary pops up. I'm like, let's break mean down into two categories. Like, let's just zoom up on a little bit. And this is, this comes from Cloud and Townsend. They have wrote a book called Boundaries that has a lot of really

great content in it. But this is one of their ideas. It's like there's being hurtful. and then there's being harmful. Those are two actually kind of different things. Hurt is something that people can recover from. Hurt is something that can be repaired. And, you know, it can hurt if, for example, you want to go to dinner Thursday night. I actually have plans.

I can't go. But this is the only night I'm in town and then I'm leaving and I'm not going to get to see again for a while. I was like, yeah, I can't. I'm sorry. And that might hurt. That might sting. But it's not harmful.

Now, harm could be like, I forgot my daughter's birthday. You know, and that might actually kind of harm the relationship. And then when I say, like, well, sorry, like, you know, honey, I was just self-care. You know, that's like, it's inappropriate. It's distorted because I was like, hold on, hold on. No, like, they needed you there. And even relationally, there was such, there was a, you had an obligation within that relationship

to show up in a certain way, you know, as a parent or as a spouse, that you kind of, you kind of let them down. And that harm, you know, needs to be brought into, you know, a season of repair. but that's kind of a different category. That's a different thing. So when you think, like, okay, well, I don't want to be mean. You can think, like, is this a harmful thing or is this a hurtful thing? Because hurt we can recover from.

It's actually okay. Sometimes people actually need a little bit of hurt in their life because that's what helps them grow. Hey, can I borrow $20? No, but I need to get home from the bus. I'm sorry. I've loaned you a lot of money and I just think this is a boundary for me that I'm just not going to be a loaned money anymore.

Now, that is a hurtful thing to say. How could you? is that harmful? No, that's actually for their benefit. If they're not in a place where they're taking financial responsibility for their life or not, they're not planning accordingly, you know, like, you know, a walk to the bus stop, you know, this, that, and the other might be the thing that actually is most helpful for them. And that's actually kind of a helpful category. Like when you have that impulse, that signal, it says, ah, I'm being mean, you can kind of split that in a two and say, is this harmful? Is this hurtful? Because sometimes what's hurtful actually might help. It might help

make the relationship actually a bit more authentic, a bit more differentiated and more intimate. But harm, that can be something that's different entirely. And that actually deserves some introspection. Those categories help. I love that. Like, thank you actually for Bray. That's why I love having you on because you always have this like, okay, let me break then. I'm like, oh, thank you for succinctly making sense. Like I, and it makes sense because even think about, like, I think because I really wanted to get into like needs as well, you know, especially when you're dating, being able to identify, like, let's call it out. Like, no, you don't need someone to text you five times a day when you've had one date with them.

Like, that's not an intrinsic need of yours to build an authentic relationship with somebody. But what you do need is someone that will show up for you in person and actually get to know you. Like, those are two very different experiences. But I think even, like you said, the heart versus harm, I get it all the time of like, I feel bad. How do I end it with someone without hurting them? And it's like, well, here's a reality. You might hurt them.

Like that might be, but the beauty of that is like, I don't know. Am I, do you watch Love is Blind? I don't, but I hear about it from everyone. I guess I start, I should just to keep up a cultural conversation. It's just, I mean, at any point, like, I love that the podcast is evergreen, but I do shut. I do throw in some part. And the reason I loved the show wasn't for anything besides. It really exemplified like, wow, so this is real life, like anxious and avoidant manifesting.

This is real life overlooking red flag. And you're like, oh, shit, we've all, like, I don't know anybody that. that's watching that being like, I've never experienced one thing here. But for me, like there was like one girl and she's just the epitome of anxious attachment and like constantly just would, I mean, like the guy wouldn't do anything. She would always create an issue. And at the end, he ended up breaking it off with her. Oh, well, sorry, spoiler alert.

It's already out. You'll go and so anyways, but people were, I remember when I made a commentary, people were saying, that's so mean. He ended it with her. How do you have no compassion for her? And I said, but he didn't do anything wrong. He stood up and said the way you're behaving is inappropriate. Did it hurt her?

Absolutely. But did she maybe need to understand actions have a reaction? And that just because you want to act in a way doesn't mean that everyone needs to take it. Because technically on paper, should your parents love be unconditional? Yeah, either your parents, they're never going anywhere. You'd hope that no matter what, they'll love you. But in a relationship, if my partner started acting like a psycho or started acting like an asshole or was super, that's not unconditional. I'm not just going to always take it. There will be times

where I say, hey, enough is enough. I don't need to take this because I'm not a dormant. And I love myself enough to know that I deserve better than this. So I love being able to differentiate, especially in the dating realm between, is this being harmful to this person? Or are you just maybe letting them down, which could at the end of the day, like you said, maybe teach them something or help them grow. Yeah. Well, I'll take it a step further and say, if you don't take some of the the hurtful, if you avoid the hurtful choices, the harmful consequences will come. Ooh. Go on. Come on.

Like, it's the truth. Like, if you stay with someone because you're afraid to hurt them, like, what does a year down the road from that look like? Two years down the road. You're in a relationship where things are clearly dysfunctional and toxic, and they're not having any more fun than you are. And then it breaks off, and then there's two years of your life. And I think a lot of us can relate to a moment like that where we kind of news,

this wasn't right. And then six months down the road, we kind of like finally, I don't know, got up the gall to do something about it. And I'm just like, I'm looking back on that. It was like, would it really be so mean and awful to have actually confronted dysfunction when you noticed it as hurtful as that could have been? And then was it really nice when you look back in hindsight when you had six months of tumultuous relationship, there's probably some harm that happened in there. And if you don't take the hurtful doors when they come and immature, grounded, regulated way, right? We're not saying going out and hurting people on purpose. The harm might come. And that's one of the harsh realities. It's like, you don't get to just be like,

nope, neither door please. No heart or, you know, no hurt or harm. I'm just going to smooth everything over. It's like, no, sometimes life does prevent that or present to that crossroad. And truthfully, like, and I believe, like, I love that. And I believe that in those moments, that is really where growth happens. Because, yes, for a long time, like, I have a lot. I have a a lot of people ask, which I do want to get into, of like, how do I even like, the number one question I got, especially when it comes to needs, which it's probably not going to shock you any more than it shocked me, was how do I ask for my needs without being too much, without being too needy? How do I come across as the cool girl? And all I keep hearing is I'm like, that just doesn't

exist because then what you want is a controlled environment that, okay, well, if I move this chest piece here, you're going to move this here, and then it's trying to understand. Now, of course, like you said, is there a way to communicate and respectfully talk about your, absolutely. We're not like asking you to be a bull in a China shop. But I think when it comes to just needs in general, how can people navigate the, oh, I don't want to be too much. I don't want to be too needy, which we know trauma responses and things like that. But I'd love your professional thoughts and opinions on that thought process because I think needs are really important in dating. And I don't think enough people understand their own.

Yeah. I often find the background of that question looks something like, I have an outcome that I want in a relationship. I want them to say yes to moving in together. I want to buy a house together. I don't know. I just, I want them to ask me out, you know, whatever. And you have this outcome,

and then you have this idea in your head of what you need to do in order to make that outcome happen, and then you need to play your part perfectly and not give off that you're trying too hard. That often kind of looks seems like the background to a lot of those conversations. Or it's something like, how do I not come off too agitated, come off kind of calm? Because in reality, this is so important to me.

I want, you know, to move in together. I'm trying to tell, you know, him how much it matters to me. But if I come off too intense, then it might give off bad energy, and then it might spook them, and then they go running for the hills. So I think both of those actually have a similar core to it. And that is you can't control the outcome. you can only influence the outcome, right? So it's not either or.

It's not like you can't control of people's emotions. You can't impact them whatsoever. It's like you do have influence here, but it's small. And if your influence is driven by fear, it's going to probably cross over the boundary into controlling. And I think that that's where some of this people-pleasing stuff actually makes a lot of sense, because even in your accommodating, cool, smooth,

don't bring it up too early, wait a little bit. Like your strategic positioning, might actually have an undertone of manipulation to it if it's driven by fear. Now, I was going to ask you. I apologize. If you're in the moment, though, I just want to piggyback on that because it's so important you just said, how can you catch yourself in that moment to be able to be like, whoa, am I, that is something I'd love to just bring up.

I apologize. I didn't mean to cut you up. Yeah. No, that's great. Well, I was going to say that the alternative to that is acceptance that it can be a different outcome than you wanted. And is it still worth having this conversation even if I can't get to that hour? What's my reaction?

It's just in my own heart if that outcome didn't come about. Probably some sadness. If it's rage, if it's terror, you need to pull back, and you're probably not ready to have that conversation yet. Okay? If it's rage or terror, that's a red flag that you just need to regulate first before continuing. You need to pause. If it's something like, oh, man, dang, I really thought this might work and the idea that he's not going to ask me on a second date, she's not going to ask me on a second day.

It's like so disappointing. That's the most human thing in the world. Of course. And of course you'd have some nerves because you really wanted to happen. But if you go in with this openness of I'm going to attune, and that's the word that if anyone's listening and taking notes, please just write that down and circle it. I'm going to attune to where they're at holistically

because I need to see what do they need right now in this season of life. What do they need in a partner? That might be me. That might not be me. It's a totally different way to evaluate. because often we evaluate someone and say like, what do they want in a partner and now let me become that? It's a different activity.

It's what do they need in a partner? Ah, there's some contrast. I wonder if that means we'll work out or not. I wonder if those things are flexible for them, if they'll come around and see that they enjoy my particularities and that's worth it for them or not. And I would be really disappointed if they chose not to, and I can hold that.

Like there's this acceptance that runs through the body that will calm down those nerves. And I think that goes for not just romantic situations, but business meetings, jobs, schools, like the big things in our lives where we really, really want it to work out, can you have that acceptance that we can influence situations but we can't control them? That's going to actually put you in a better headspace. And you know what I love to that you brought up that I think, honestly, I just don't think it's talked about enough is those human experiences,

is to say, hey, yeah, it's okay. Like whenever people ask, I'm like, okay, so we can have two conflicting thoughts. you could be excited and want that. And then if it doesn't work out, you can also be sad. And I think, you know, like I talk about my anxiety very openly. Like, I am a human. And as much work as I've done and I'm very proud of myself, I am not exclusive to having panic attacks, to having sad thoughts.

It is not. And I'm pretty shook at. Whenever I talk openly about that, that people are like, wait, you have anxiety still? And it's like, you're a human. emotions, feeling like it's very normal. Now, the difference between the anxious attacher that I was and the people pleaser to the version of me now is, yeah, I get triggered like anybody else.

Like if somebody says something rude to me or I read a mean comment, like, I'm, of course, I'm going to, I'm not arrogant. I'm not going to be like, huh, this person doesn't deserve my time. I'm God's gift. It's like, oh, I'm still going to go, yikes, shit, you just said I'm loud. That's what my dad used to say when I was a kid. Like, I was too much. And it hits that.

And then I retreat. The difference being I used to attack myself and say, you're a fucking idiot. You're such a piece of shit. God, there's something wrong with you. Spiral and go into this narrative. See, I knew, of course that guy wouldn't want you because look at you. Versus now saying, okay, I can acknowledge that this hurt me. I can acknowledge that I'm a human, but I can also say, sure, maybe I, maybe that person's

going through something. I don't need to internalize it and make it about me because out of fear I want you to like me. Instead, it's, hey, I'm going to be me and I'm going to show up as me. Like you said, if this works out, hip, hip, hooray. If it doesn't, that is a-okay. I wouldn't expect you to change for me and vice versa, right? And so I think just even calling out and normalizing that throughout all of these experiences, yeah, as a formal, like if you're a people please or anyone listening,

you're going to set boundaries. It's going to be really hard. It's going to probably feel so uncomfortable because I know my dad used to hit us if we did that. So I would be scared and fearful. And it took me probably five years to recalibrate my brain to saying, hey, it's okay, you're safe now. But that takes time. And I just wanted to take a brief second to normalize human experiences

because I find that there's just too many people talking about you'll be healed. And then not really talking about, okay, healing through that trauma, but what does the other side look like? Yeah. Healing isn't the utopian vision we all have in our head of never having problems or reactions to things. wish. Like, yeah, that would be something else, huh? Well, we wouldn't be able to let in the depth of experience. Like, I think here's like a little mantra that I've written down on a card that I kind carry with me sometimes. Like, when, especially when I have a like situation I'm really nervous about,

this is like my public speaking card. This is my, about to go into an intense meeting. I really want them to like me, card. This is about to meet one of my heroes. I hope they like me. The card just says, oh, I can survive if this doesn't go well. And I have. have choices. And for me, those are the two things that I need to remind myself that over and over and over. I will survive if this doesn't go well. And I have choices. Because when I'm really overwhelmed, I feel like the world is ending. And then I feel like, and there's nothing I can do. And I need you to remember that you have choices and you're going to survive. If he doesn't call you back, you're going to survive. If you don't get into that program, you're going to survive. You have choices.

And that I think is, that's the undergirding strength, I think, of confidence. Confidence isn't, I know it's going to go well. Confidence is, I know I'll survive even if it doesn't. I'm obsessed with that. Like, I love that. It's kind of similar. My mom used to always say, anytime I did, she would go, but you were good before them, right? And I was like, well, and she was like, no, no, no, you were good before them. You'll be good after. That was always her thing. She was like, you were okay then. You will be okay after. Will it hurt?

Will you experience? Yeah, of course, because you're human. But I love, and I think the choices thing, we're going to talk about that for a second, because that is a huge, especially I think for people that are people pleasers and unsure how to ask for needs, the amount of times, because I do question boxes, so people will ask questions and like, you know, we're talking,

the amount of times I'll get something where it's like, you're reading this whole paragraph of like, this person's just awful to me. This person treats me terribly. And then they told me that they want this. And then they ignored me for a week. And then they said they want space. And now I saw them with another girl.

What do I do? I have no idea. And I love to remind that I'm like, you're not, like, I understand when we go back into that feeling of like, oh, God, I'm a child. Like when I was a kid, no, you did not have choices. You did not. At a five-year-old kid, your parents doing something, you had no choice. You have to acclimate and adapt to the environment so that you can stay safe. But now as an adult, I trust me, I totally understand regression and going back into that.

but my favorite part is to remind them, what are your choice? What is in your control? Well, it's in my control. I can stop talking to him. Right. Let's explore that. Let's explore what you can actually have control over, which is you, which is saying I get to make a choice if this works for me or not. It's not just do they choose me?

I also get to decide if I choose you because I want both people to be actively equally involved in that decision, not me just self-abend. abandoning and saying, well, hey, whatever you want, I'm good with, and whatever you say, I'm going with. Because I think at that point, I feel like you just start to lose yourself. Yeah, that is so insightful, Sabrina. It's like that specifically that point of when you're a kid, you didn't have choices. Man, so much of the pain that animates all the places we feel stuck as an adult, all that pain was happening in a circumstance where we didn't have choices. And we didn't have the resources, the people in our life that were supporting us that would help us feel like we could survive it.

Like we were lonely and powerless. And that is something just to sit with for a moment that so much of the stuckness you feel is likely animated from a place of loneliness and powerlessness. 100%. It's likely not actually the circumstance you're in. It's just familiar in a hard kind of way. And I wanted to ask you, like when it comes to,

because I think the needs, you know, addressing your needs, needs. Like, it's so important, right? Of course, like, just being able to understand, yeah, what do I need in a relationship? Like, what are, what are things that, like, I have to have? And I think for a lot of people, the question that they asked was, how am I able to differentiate needs versus anxiety? Or, like, needs, am I being clingy? Or is this actually a healthy need to have? Mostly, you know, as you know, the audience, it's a lot of daters. And I think a lot of this really stems in the, like, you know, well, I want more texting and I want to spend more time with

them and then you have to start to balance what is a healthy trajectory versus what are what is being fueled by anxiety and I love your little tips tricks and tit so I wanted to just ask if there was anything when you hear that that resonates with your work well okay so two two directions you can kind of take this one I think is the forward direction of looking at the other person and attuning to like what do they need where are they at because I might say that well I need I need you I need time I need to see you. I need this, this and this. And then it's like, okay, well, in a mutual mature relationship

where both people are committed to both people's flourishing, is this how a person would show up on my side of a relationship? And that's not an excuse to judge yourself and get super critical at yourself, but just to kind of almost get a little bit of distance for a second and be like, okay, if someone, if like a friend were telling me about this circumstance and they're like, and then his girlfriend said this,

like what would just be my more general, more objective, reaction to that. Yeah, he hasn't hung out with her in weeks, and she deserves to hang out with her boyfriend. Of course, like, of course she's, you know, justified to seeing that. Or it might be like, it's finals week. He's super stressed. His boss is breathing down his neck. He needs some space and he needs some time.

And I objectively, when I step out, I can see, oh, okay, if she is, you know, I guess not aware of the context, the only thing that's right in front of her. front of her face are her needs and they're not sensitive to the circumstance the world around, then that is probably coming from something inside of her that she needs to address, that she needs to handle on her own. But I would say, though, that it is, of course, normal and real and desirable and good to have needs in a relationship and to express those needs and then to want someone else to fulfill those needs. Like, walk me out to my car, please. It makes me feel more safe. Like, that is okay.

Like, and that's not, uh, you imposing. Uh, that's not you being too much. And, uh, I think here's the other direction, though, is you can kind of go inward. The big, like, emotions underneath of fear, let's say are like sadness, shame, um, terror. It's like this vulnerability. And I think that when we are kind of noticing ourselves, like, oh, he needs space, uh, or they need space. I should be able to just calm down. I should stop texting.

I've sent them five texts already. Like, how do I calm down? It's like looking back and just kind of noticing that feeling, noticing where the body's at and just be like, I wonder what's underneath of this. I wonder what's underneath of this fear. What kind of catastrophe am I worried about? Or what kind of pain in my past might be kind of animating this.

Journaling about that kind of stuff. Talking to another friend just about what you're feeling can actually be super insightful. When you get to the root of sometimes that really anxious energy, that insight will create some breathing room and you'll feel like you have a lot more autonomy to make choices that are aligned with your values when that insight's there. It's not the same thing as healing it,

but that insight at least can really create a lot of breathing room, like I said. 100%. I think, especially with the texting, like it's such a big thing. And I get it. Like, dating is weird. It's uncomfortable.

There's a lot of unknowns. Like, there's a difference between having anxiety and dating. Like, you're human. I don't know what's going to happen. None of us really know. I would be lying if, if I said, at least for my experience, when I met my partner, I wasn't like everyday skipping on stones and thinking, oh, I'm super secure.

No, the first, my partner and I, we met on a nap, we hooked up the first date, and I left going, I'm never going to see this guy again. So, of course, within me had societal norms coming out of like, oh, you slept with him on the first date and I'm shaming myself, but then on the same token going, yeah, but I had a good time. Like, Mama has needs. Talk about having needs and going out to them. Like, it's been a while and I was like, I just, you know, when I wanted to explore that and just being able to differentiate like throughout that time, like a little bit of that unknown and the anxiety,

very normal. But where I started personally, at least for myself on my journey, being able to differentiate between that anxiety and like a real healthy need, the difference between, hey, okay, so if I'm going to see you twice a week, we love that. I love plans. It helps me feel like because that is a need of mine. And the need is that come from a little bit of control and things like that, sure. but at least for me it's I'm in control of my life. I like to know what my schedule is the week of.

That works for me because I am crazy busy and it helps me. Versus I need you to text me every single day and if I don't get my good morning text then, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, the one need I had of I need plans, it really helps me is because I've got 7,000 things. I'm running two businesses. I've got my family. I've got friends. So at the very least, because I'm prioritizing this relationship, I'd like to know when I'm going to see you so that we ensure that we're keeping this connection. Awesome. Yay. Love it. that versus when I wanted that, why aren't you sending me a good morning text? Really where that stemmed from was a fear that they were going to abandon me, a fear that they were going to forget

about me, a fear that, but if he's not texting me, then that means he doesn't like me. Okay, then I went further. What is that? Okay, so he doesn't like you. Well, then that reaffirms my core beliefs. There's something wrong with me because you're not reaching out to me. And so that was where I had to go, okay, there's a healthy balance of let's communicate in between dates. I haven't seen you in five days. I'd like to at least talk to you once or twice in between that versus is, I need you to quell my anxiety. That's my need. And it's like, way, we got to be able to balance here.

Of course, reassurance is very natural. But the constant validation and reassurance then starts to become, that's no longer an intrinsic need of yours. That's just, to me, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm self-abandoning yet again. I am completely going, I'm putting it on to them as opposed to taking care of myself. Because, well, if I just focus on why they're not texting me and what, and creating a narrative, then I stay away from the root cause of, but I'm fucking terrified of being abandoned

and I'm terrified of my core beliefs being reaffirmed. Yeah. And here's the thing. And some relationships, that's actually appropriate to bring up directly. What I mean is like if you've been with someone for a while, you have like some vulnerability and trust. Totally.

You can say, you know, I think I've just been reflecting on this. My whole like, please text me, where are you, where are you? Where are you? I think it's rooted in this. And I just, I think when I realized that, there was a lot of sadness that came up because I really don't want that to feel like a burden. for you and I'm noticing at the same time I do need reassurance.

Like there's a, I don't know where that threshold is where it crosses over into being unrealistic, but what's been your experience of that? And you know what I find is that like, I don't know, let's take like heterosexual couples, for example here. Like for a lot of guys, I think that when they hear like a direct like this is what I need, this is what makes me feel great, they're usually pretty up for it. There's some guys that just get irritated by like the whole like, oh my gosh, every day, da da da da da, da.

But like, I don't know, every guy's in a different splight. space where they're ready for relationship, where they're not, where they're more attuned, where they're not, where they're more communicative and they're not. But what I found is like mature guys who are attuned, you know, in this case, to the women that they're dating. If the women are like, I just would love if you text me in the morning, most guys are totally up for that. And if that's like not resonating with your experience, like what? What do you mean most guys are up for that? Like, I'm not finding the right guys. Like, I just, I think that there's a place where both people can come to a relationship and in mutuality and in a mutuality and in

maturity can be like, okay, that's maybe not what I need, but I can see that's what you need. And because I care about you and love you, I'm going to step up to the plate for that because that's kind of what, it's kind of what relationship is. And for example, like, I'm totally the not-textor in my relationship with my wife. My wife, when I travel, for example, she wants multiple updates a day, send me pictures of everything you're doing. She's sending me lots of pictures of the kids. And that's great, just not intuitively what's on my mind. I'm like, I'm out speaking or I'm at a conference or I'm, you know, meeting people and I'm networking or whatever. And it's not because I love her less that she loves me or anything like that.

It's just like the intuitive, like, I don't know, communicative instinct is just not aligned. But I've made special note to be like, take lots of pictures of what's going on, send them. And it's not a chore. It's like a, I know this is going to brighten her day. I know that she's like waiting for this. And it fills her up and hopping on the phone and talking, you know, like, I'm only gone for one day. Do we need to talk? Yes.

Like, I'm going to hop on the phone. And like, because I want her to feel valued. like the good stuff of relationship. I think the stuff that we like see in the movies, the thing that like kind of gets our heart pounding is like that it's what you invest in. And it's what you, it's in those small moments that you build the foundation that will help you through the hard times too. Like I don't think people always have a vision for that. It's that energy that you put into the relationship and the seemingly insignificant mundane things that feel like they're not a quote unquote big deal that are just the foundation and the rock of the hard.

things. I'm speaking a little bit out of my experience right now. So Paige, you know, Paige, you know, was super sick this past couple weeks, just feeling super nauseous and really awful, something like the flu, something like that. And, you know, she was like out of commission for two weeks. And if I'm being totally honest, like I felt like I didn't get a lot of time with her. I miss talking to her. Like, I had lots of interesting things that happened to you because I wanted to tell her about, but she was just kind of nauseous. So she just wasn't up for conversation. And she was just kind of out of it. I think in a different headspace for younger, Matthias, I would have gotten bitter, frustrated, a little bit distant, and then super guilty for feeling that way because she's sick

and like, how could I be feeling that way? Da-da-da-da-da-da. But because there's like a longstanding habit of putting a lot of energy into our relationship over years and years, we've been together 11 years now, it's like, when these seasons come, it's so easy for me to be like, oh, this is just a season. This is just a thing. She's just sick. It's she'll be fine.

And then we'll get to reconnect. I don't even have to sweat it. And that rolls off because of the history of energy. of like, I've seen her put energy into this relationship before. I've seen her persevere during hard times before. I've seen her really show up for me when it was not her instinct, when she was not in the mood, when she was in a hard place, and she put it on pause to be there for me.

I can trust that it's going to be okay. And that's just something I think you build up over time. So for folks who are like, oh, is it okay to want that reassurance? I think there's a natural instinct that that reassurance, that regular communication, that energy that you desire, it's part of the foundation of what builds a good relationship. And it can cross over the threshold to like what you're describing. It's far more about soothing fear in you than it is actually about building anything with them.

That's my biggest thing. If you have something to say, say it, of course, please. I am numerous uno communicator. But if it's just because it's like, well, you know, like I have so many people that will write in saying, I'm going to break it off with this guy. He's amazing. Everything's fantastic when we're together. But he doesn't text me for sometimes one day at a time and I can't have.

handle that. And it's like, you've had three dates with this person. You just, there's not, that's not owed to you. You want that relationship shit before you're in the relationship. Whereas like, my partner and I, when we first met, I expressed my needs. I said, listen, I'd like more texting in between our dates to feel more connected to you. I expressed mine. And then he came back with his. He said, listen, I don't connect to that way. He was like, I work in tech. I work on my computers for nine hours. The last thing I want to do is I have a mini computer, but I'd much rather spend time with you. And I'm happy to do a phone call. We compromise. We spoke. That's right. That's great. That's great.

We both talked about our needs. It wasn't, if you don't do this, then I'm out of here. It was, hey, can I share this with you? Okay, then you share with me. Because just because I have a need doesn't mean that the other person doesn't have one as well. And I think I'm big on the communication, but I think it's really like we spoke about when you're going to express these needs and you're going to talk about them, at the very least, spend some time with yourself to really understand what you want to communicate. Because if you come up, you never do this and you never text me. You never call me.

That was something that happened on Love is Blind. You never say this. And the guy, it's like sentences prior. He was saying all of it. And you could see it was like, that's not fair. Now we're not fighting fair. Now we're not articulating. Now we're not communicating.

Now that other person's probably going to shut down because we're no longer actually talking about what's happening. We're going into fear. We're going into the root issues. And then realistically, like you're probably not going to get to the place that you want to get to. If you don't even just take five minutes with yourself, to say, okay, they didn't text me. What's actually bothering me about this?

Do I genuinely believe that this person doesn't like me and doesn't want anything to do with me and they hate me? Probably not because I'm seeing them tomorrow. Or is it that I'm terrified? Things like that. And then being able to communicate and say and not play the cool girl because the cool girl doesn't exist. I'm sorry, there is no girl out there that just has no needs.

Yeah. I just, I mean, who am I? It's like, somebody asked, why doesn't the guy, why don't men marry the cool girl? I was like, because she's not real. Mm-hmm. How are you going to marry her? And she's two-dimensional.

Like, I think this is the same thing. I think there's like the cool girl, and then there's the guy who's too nice. I just think like those archetypes, the women won't put up with the male archetype of it, but the men idealize the women archetype. But they're kind of the same thing. And here's what I mean. So the nice guy, the guy who's too nice, like, oh, I'm not attracted to him. There's no chemistry because he's too nice.

It's not too nice. It's, I never conflict with you. I only reflect back to you what you like and then what's safe. It's a version of people-pleasing. And that is so unattractive because we don't fall in love with ourselves. I guess unless we're narcissists, like, we don't fall in with just like the reflection of what we like. We fall in love with difference. The chemistry, the spark is opposites and difference having friction and not just in conflict ways, but in just differentiation.

Like, you have to have differentiation in order to fall in love. And so if there's a guy in your world, it's like, I should love this guy. I should settle down with this guy, but he's just too nice and like, why don't I like him? It's because you're not differentiated. And that's either because you don't actually truly know him. That's actually a really important point to take away. He likely hasn't been vulnerable with you. And if it is just like, oh, it's just all vulnerability, all neediness.

He's so nice and so emotive. Like, blah. It's like, yeah, that's just a bunch of fear. Like, the thing that you're repulsed by isn't the niceness. It's actually neediness is just fear. Like, you know, he hasn't taken responsibility. for his own fear, he's offloading it on you to help him soothe. And of course, you don't want that weird maternal, like, soothing role in his life.

Like, duh. You know, but so for the, you know, the opposite, and again, these heterosexual kind of archetypal situations, it's like the cool girl has no needs. It's totally down to be physically intimate as often as, you know, whatever, and has very low expectations and doesn't require me to change. It's this adolescent fantasy. And it's just, it doesn't exist because, again, there's no differentiation. And a guy won't fall in love with that. A guy will play with someone who's

like that, but won't fall in love with someone like that. Because there's nothing that sparks interest beyond just the physical appearance. And the physical appearance, you know, the novelty of that will wear off in time just like anybody ever that's ever been with anyone. You know, physical appearance, you know, we'll come and go. We all get old. We all get wrinkly. That's just part of any of it. Like the real spark that's going to create a mature adult connection that actually satisfies the deep places in your soul is through differentiation. And that includes sometimes hurting the other person with where you're different and expressing the places where you need them.

All of that is included. That's why cool, cool girl will be a play thing and never respected. And nice guy will never get the girl in the end because it's all fear. That was, I love that correlation, actually. I do love that crossover because it's true. It's like when a guy's too nice, you're like, is that your personality? like that's your whole person out. There's no depth. I find it really attractive.

Like my partner always says he's like, I love strong women. Like his mom, his whole family, the women are very tough in the best way possible. Like they are, they hold their ground and I love his family. And to me it's like, he finds it really hot when I'll set a boundary or say a need. And he's like, go out, please challenge me. Because like he's rigid and he's really in his like, I do it this way. And I find it sexy when he'll look at me and say, no, I want to do that. And I'm like, oh, okay.

Like, thank you for speaking up. And somebody asked, how do you support a people-pleasing partner to assert their need? So, like, if you're dating somebody and you see it, like, even, honestly, even for my mom, like, how can you support, whether it's a partner or family member, somebody, if you're with them and you see that they're just people-pleasing and not saying, like, how can you support them to express themselves? Or is that even, like, your responsibility? Like, I'd love your thoughts on that.

Well, I'll speak a little bit for my personal experience here. And then it might be helpful for some, maybe not for others. But so Paige, my wife, Paige, when we first met, she was just very quiet, very, we'll kind of go with the flow, whatever I wanted to do. She was kind of up for. And I don't know, kind of played the cool girl at the beginning of it. And, you know, and that was, you know, fun at the beginning. But I remember just this moment of like, oh, man, like, where do you want to eat? She's like, wherever you want to eat. I'm like, yeah, but where do you want to eat? And she's like, I'm fine with anything.

And I'm like, no, like, where do you want to eat? And I'm like, there's this, there's like argument of like, come on, show up. Like, come into the relationship. Like, and what I found was, you know, like I could put that on her, you know, and I think I did for a couple years of like, oh, okay, you just don't have confidence show up. But what I realized was there were these small ways that she was trying to enter the relationship, and I passed over them because I'm a big personality. I talk a lot.

I don't know. I talk for a living. I make videos on the internet, like for a living. So, of course, I have a personality that is like, yeah, you're nodding your head. I could see it. Oh, that I know. So it's like, I'm a little. I, I, she was trying to show up in delicate ways and what she was doing when she was putting her toe in the water and seeing, would I be seen if I showed up in this way? And then she actually found that she wasn't because I wanted to see what I wanted to see and I wanted to eat where I wanted to eat. And then she said, how about Mexican food? I was like, ah, nah, how about something else? And I'm thinking, we could just make a compromise on something we both like. And really she was just deferring to whatever I wanted because when she did put out her opinion, it kind of got steamrolled pretty

quick. And I think that if you aren't a space where it's like, oh, I want my people-pleasing partner to kind of come out of their shell, I would challenge you. It's like, what if they have been trying to? And you just haven't had the intuition, the delicate intuition, to see them try to bring some of the light through. And what I stopped doing was being so, I guess, like, argumentative. I have kind of a debate-y personality. I don't wear that really, like, big on my public profiles. You don't see me debating people or, but like me and the boys, like when we're around, we're like debating philosophy or theology or like just kind of going at it. So like I, I love like kind of verbal sparring with the boys. And I realize like, oh, that doesn't fit at all in my relationship,

at least at the early stages of it was not a good fit. That actually really kind of knocked her back a few. And she was just like, whoa, he can get really intense when we disagree. I'm not sure I'm safe here. And that was just part of me being 19, 20 year old Matthias, having to just mature and grow up and learn that you got to be a bit more gentle when, you know, like, where you have someone that you're dating that's of that personality. And so there is this place where I can pull back, be a bit more gentle, be attuned to her and what she needed. And then she knew how to rise up.

And oh, my gosh, she's the most opinionated woman in the world. That you would never know, like, sometimes I'm like, wow, like her lights really shining through. Yep, okay, we can't eat here, we can't eat here, we can't eat here, we can't eat here. Okay, Mexican food it is. So it's like, I'm joking, but it's, it's beautiful thing. when someone feels safe to show up. And if they're not showing up, sometimes it's them,

but sometimes it's the interactions between the both of you. Thank you for sharing that. Like, I really, I love personal stories. I love when it's not just like, here's the clinical. It's like, actually here's like what I did and how like it manifested. I try to practice that. Same with Ryan. I've stopped seeing tech guy.

That's his fucking name is Ryan. And same with it. Because like, sometimes like, babe, what do you want for dinner? And I'll say, oh, whatever you want. And I'll look at him and I'm like, what food would you like in your stomach right now? And he's like, you want me in my honest opinion? I'm like, I'd love it. He's like, I want Italian. I'm like, great, we're doing Italian. Like, sometimes I have to stop and be like, I would like to know authentically what would you like

because I'm here to support that. And sometimes, yeah, sometimes yeah, especially when you started talking about food, I'm like, of course every girl, I don't know, whatever you want. I don't care. None of us have any idea yet for some reason what we want. We've all been alive for this many years and yet we still can't decide. But I, Matthias, thank you again, as always, for shedding so much light and bestowing your wisdom and sharing your personal stories because I love learning more about you. who you are and I love your creations and I can totally relate as a big personality who is a speaker. And I'm just so grateful to have had you on. So thank you so much. And where can people find you and interact with you on the interwebs? Yep. Matthias J. Barker. That's where I'm on. Instagram, TikTok, anywhere else. Yeah. I just am so grateful to be on. Thank you so much for

having me on a second time. You are just so insightful, Sabrina. I'm just so grateful for the space that you've made on this podcast. And there's so many people I know because I get DMs about it. We're just like, I love that you came on there. She's one of my absolute favorites. She says it how it is. She's so real. And I think that's 100% genuine and true because you really are doing something special on here. I'm so grateful to be apart.

Thanks for reaching out and inviting me on. It's going to be like a little like circle jerk where I'm like, no, I'm grateful for you. I mean it. I mean it. Thank you. Of course. And thank you. And everything will be linked in the show notes.

So everybody go follow Matthias. And you have a new podcast out, don't you? It's coming out. Yeah. So probably by the time this air is for sure. Yeah. So the Trauma Institute, which is an organization that I just launched with Dr. Frank Anderson, is releasing a healing trauma podcast.

So it's all about healing from trauma. And then I have a podcast with a guy named Joey Kidney. And we have a podcast called These Guys See Therapy. It's a lot more relaxed, a lot more kind of unprofessional or impersonal. It is personal. Yeah, that. And we're just chopping it up and talking about life. And so, yeah, two different versions for what you're in the mood for, something a bit more like goal-oriented.

And then something that's a lot more relaxed. So those are my two pods that I'm hanging out with at the moment. Yay. Okay. Well, everybody needs to go follow and listen. And again, thank you so much, Matthias. And I'm so excited. Everything will be linked in the show notes so everybody can come find you. Thank you. Thank you so much.