The Sabrina Zohar Show - 81: Debunking Healing Myths: Why Healing Requires Struggle with Masha Kay

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

In this episode, Sabrina and Masha Kay delve into the topic of perfectionism and debunking healing myths. They discuss the misconception that healing means never experiencing negative emotions or challenges. The conversation highlights the importance of embracing the full spectrum of emotions and learning to move through challenges rather than avoiding them. Sabrina shares personal experiences of growth and healing, emphasizing the significance of surrendering and allowing things to fail in order to discover one's true strength. The episode emphasizes the journey of healing as a process of facing obstacles, setbacks, and challenges to ultimately find clarity and self-trust. Through personal anecdotes and insights, the hosts encourage listeners to embrace discomfort, confront fears, and trust in their ability to navigate through difficult situations for personal growth and resilience. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work Podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host of Friends, another week in studio. Hello to the YouTube world for anybody that is watching us right now on YouTube, on socials, wherever you are listening or watching. And just a plug in case you're not, do the work podcast on YouTube, you can watch all of our new episodes. But this week, a very special guest is back. And I'm just so excited because, I mean, you guys know her, but nonetheless, before we get into the episode, though, let's do some housekeeping, shall we? Babes, you know what I'm

going to ask you. Please don't forget to rate and review the show. I love you guys to the goddamn moon and back, but y'all aren't rating. So do me a favor on Spotify. There's three dots at the top. Just click it and press rate show. That's how I grow. That's the only way that the podcast gets bigger. We get bigger guests. The advertisers, thank you to our sponsors and please show them some love. And by the way, guys, just a fly. I actually do use every single product that is sponsoring the show. And I say no to brands that I don't actually resonate with because I want to make sure your experience is equally as enjoyable as mine. So I'm trying to take care of y'all in the same ways. So please, please, please show our sponsor some loves. Please don't forget to rate and review

the show. Share it with a friend. Even just that organic word of mouth helps us grow. Follow along on the socials, do the work podcast and Sabrina. Dot Zohar on TikTok and Insta and all the fun stuff. And as always, don't forget, if you guys want more content, the bonus content is out. You can subscribe. you get two extra bonus episodes a month, one with me and Tech Guy where we answer all of your questions that you ask on air, and then you get to tell us what episode you want us to make. So you guys have full control over the bonus content, as well as ad free listening. Yeah, I mean, hello on all episodes. So all the ones from the past into the future are all ad free if you are a subscriber.

So it's just a way of saying thank you to guys to supporting us and helping us support the show and a very small $7 a month to keep that going. So, and again, and last message before we get on into it, the course is out. The course is rearing, it's going. People are finishing and loving it. We have some reviews up now, so don't forget to join. There's a payment plan if you guys need. There is not if you don't.

And it's just a really great way to get really clear on what it is that you want. Whether you're in a relationship or you're dating or you're not sure what it is and where you want to be, it's really an opportunity to come back home. And that's why it's called the foundation course. and our very special guests that we have today and I are creating a course that will be out in the next, yeah, let's just say a couple months for argument's sake. So you guys will be able to, here's a hint, work on your nervous system while you're dating. So without further ado, let's get right the fuck on into it with our guest, Masha's back. I'm so excited to be here.

For a second, I thought there was going to be noises. And I was like, there's no noises. I was like, is there? Yeah, I'm like, where's the fireworks? That didn't pop off. But it's probably for the best because I'd probably freak out. Welcome back. I am so excited to be back.

Welcome back. Very pregnant. Very pregnant. As far as this episode's concerned. As far as this, yeah. In two months when you're listening, there will be a baby here. But for now, there's a belly and there's a baby growing in it. So super stoked to have you.

How have you been? I've been good. I've been good. I've been really excited. I've been thinking all week about this and some of the conversations we need to have today. Need is a good way to put it, actually. Need, right? Today, we're going to talk about some pretty important stuff.

But really, the bulk of our conversation. is kind of around perfectionism. And I know you know that well. And I have, you know, I'm a friend of hers. And debunking kind of like those, the healing myths and like, is it healing or is it just avoidance? Because I think we see so many different, first of all, we see the clickbait. We see the pop psychology. We see the stuff on the internet of like, just avoid triggers. And don't be uncomfortable. And healing means this. And you just need to walk away. It's so much conflicting, polarizing, wait, but I do this, but I don't do this. So I'm excited for us to be able to kind of demystify a lot of things. And I'm curious, I'm so curious to see things that have annoyed you

specifically as well in that kind of sector. That's why I feel like this is a needed conversation. I feel like you and I have this conversation quite a bit about the things that kind of get under our skin. And they get under our skin because we're frustrated for the people we're helping. we're like, wow, I can see how your misunderstandings of what we're actually doing here are holding you back from having the things that you desire. And that is the most frustrating thing. And so that's why I think this conversation needs to be had because there are a lot of misconceptions. And I feel like they're not being called out.

And that's just building more and more and more confusion. If you're watching these and you have those misconceptions, even like what we're saying, you might be misconstruing 100%. even like when I think about my own journey, you know, like my kind of going through my healing journey, I think one, when I started therapy in 2016, 2017, or 2016-2017, kind of that around that time, which, yikes, that's eight years ago, which is fucking crazy. It feels like yesterday, but also like a decade ago. Oh, which it is. But when I started, there was like very few creators in the space and it was a lot of the like, do this to get that. And I personally,

I thought, okay, me being healed, what was the anxious girlie and me thinking? Oh, me being healed means I'm never going to be sad. I'm never going to be triggered. I'm never going to be hurt. Mind you, I didn't even know what the word triggered meant at the time, but in hindsight, now I understand it. I'm never going to have highs and lows. And I thought, me healing meant, yay, I can get rid of the parts of myself that I hate.

Right? And then I can just, I'm never going to have to deal with that thought process and the stinking thinking and all that. And boy, was I wrong? because those parts of myself that I hate are not going anywhere realistically because they're really pretty deep. And we've talked about, you know, if you feel lovable and things. And I think we should talk about that on this episode.

But that was my understanding of what healing was. And I've now come to realize it's not. And so I wanted to hear kind of your thoughts on like, what are you actually, what is healing actually fucking mean kind of in your thoughts? And then I'll give kind of mine as after this journey of what I've experienced. You know, first I have to say, it's so interesting hearing you say that because that's what I hear a lot from clients, obviously. But I'm thinking back to my own journey, which kind of started around the same time. Funny enough, different journey. It wasn't around dating. It was more

around my health and well-being and career and new identities, but really started around the same time, 2016, I feel like. And my perception of it was, and this is so reflective of you and I, my perception of it was great. If I just do everything perfectly, if I just do everything perfectly, I'm just going to ace this. Like, I think that's how I thought of it. I think I thought of it as like a test that I could ace. I'm going to just kill it. I'm going to excel by being perfect, by doing all the right things. And that that's what it was for me, doing all the right things, which is kind of silly now that I say, but again, it just shows the perfectionism that was really guiding my healing journey, right? And I think for you, it shows kind of how you were feeling about yourself and how much that was guiding your journey.

But back to your question around what I think healing is. I think it's maybe easier to say what it's not, to be honest. And I think healing is not, based on my story, healing is not perfection. It's not being perfect. It's not fixing yourself. It's not never experiencing highs and lows. It's not never getting triggered. It's not never feeling pain. Like that's what healing is definitely not. What I think healing is is having lows, having difficult emotions, having challenges, having things go horribly wrong in your life, and having the resilience and the confidence and the ability to move through those in a way that moves you forward. Hmm. I love that. I, to me, I have one analogy of what healing is, but to me, what I really saw is like, I was guilty. Was, not anymore. I really,

I've outgrown this aspect of myself. of the black and white thinking. I was such a sucker for like, if it's not this, it's this. If it's not good, it's bad. The polarizing of it has to be this way or that way. And if it's not, then it's all wrong. And to me, what healing was was like a brush stroke of gray. And it allowed me to start to kind of blend in going two conflicting thoughts at once. I can still think that maybe this is one thing, but I can also draw from this and start to realize is it's kind of the same thing that drives me fucking insane of the like villainizing of avoidance and the like polarizing of like, well, I'm anxious and at least I express myself and I say what

I feel. And it's like, no, in the words of Eternal Sunshine that I named Clemaffer, constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating. And just because you're word vomiting and you're constantly, well, I text and at least I express myself, it's like, no, you project, you deflect, you make everybody else. And not everybody, but that was my thing. I was like on the alone on this island of like, well, I'm at least saying how I feel. And it's like, no, I was so worried about you choosing me that I was trying to figure out the right things to say.

And I was gripping at fucking straws to make that connection work. Very different than understanding that like, oh, maybe my partner, you know, if you're in a relationship, like, which by the way, we're going to be talking more relationship things because we can't talk about dating forever. We have to evolve. So yes, if you're dating and you're trying to understand like, you know, like even an example of like texting means. Either he likes you and if this person texts you every day, then that person wants you. And if they don't text you for a day, they don't. That's an example of black and white thinking. Black and white thinking being a protective mechanism to try to keep you safe because it's

this or it's that. Healing made me realize I could still like to text, but just because that person doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean it's a reflection of their interest in me because maybe people operate differently and not, it's like when I get a comment of like, well, I'm a guy. And as a guy, if a guy doesn't text you for a day, then that means he doesn't. like you don't listen to this advice. And then you started to get the people chiming enough like, I knew that was right. And it's like, no, that was confirmation bias. One human being thought that. And so, like you said the other day, that's not everyone's lived experience. And I kind of see

healing as like, I got to the mountain that was really hard to climb. And when I didn't have the right shoes and I was naked and I didn't have any tools, it was really fucking tough. And I was scraped and bruised. To me, what healing was was I now had the shoes, the outfit. Of course, the outfit, the outfit, the tools, the band, the things I mean. needed. Did it make that mountain easier to climb in a way, if you think of it, because I had what I needed. But it didn't make that the steps were any easier. It's just that I had what I needed to get to the top. I love that analogy. I think that is the perfect analogy, right? Like it doesn't change the journey. You still have to have the journey, have the experiences. But what it changes is your

ability to get to kind of where you want to be. Whatever your goal is, whatever your destination is, it changes your ability to do that. You have the ability to do that. That doesn't necessarily, yes, you're right. It makes it easier in the fact that now you're like, oh, I'm actually capable of this, right? But it doesn't make it easier. And that climb itself is just a steep. There's just as many obstacles along the way. I think that is the perfect analogy. And that's exactly, I think, what it's been for me. But to be honest, that's something I realized moving through it. Again, did not realize that in the beginning. But now I'm like, wait, I still go through. challenges, painful emotions all the time. And I always say this to my clients because I feel like they

don't fully believe it. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Right. But it's like, no, I go through challenges all the time, difficult emotions, painful emotions, grief, all of it. But now I just, it doesn't completely consume me. I don't get completely overwhelmed by it. I don't get completely trampled by it. I'm like, okay, I know I'm going to move through this. And actually, I know that if I move through this, I'm going to be stronger on the other end. I'm going to be more resilient. I'm going to have learned something about myself. I'm going to be a better version of myself on the other end. That's really what healing has been. And I really love what you said about the brush strokes and like the gray and the nuance because I think you're pointing out that

healing brings back the nuance and allows for flexibility. You know, I always talk about a flexible nervous system, but I think healing is experiencing that flexibility, the moving up and down, the seeing different perspective, the holding different, contradicting emotions at the same time. I think that is so true of what healing, and I think we have to add that into our definition. And the one other thing that came up for me as you were talking is accountability. I think healing is also learning to take accountability,

because you were talking about how often it's like blaming other people, right, and seeing yourself as the victim. And I think healing is taking responsibility for your journey. I think I've said this on here before. I once heard someone say that responsibility. Taking responsibility is taking 100% ownership of your ability to respond. Meaning we need to take 100% responsibility. And I think people really struggle with that before they've done the work.

And they're like, well, it's their fault. Well, you don't know my parents did or my partner does or this guy did to me. And it's like none of that matters. How much of the ability to respond do you want? If you want all of it, you have to take 100% responsibility for your journey. right of course you have to hold other people accountable that's part of taking responsibility but it's really you taking ownership and accountability so i i think that also is part of the definition of healing holding two conflicting thoughts was one of the hardest things for me to grasp and i know you

you like to talk about two conflicting emotions and we'll get that but for me the reality of like i can miss someone but i can also know they're not good for me you know just like those types of polarizing I can love you, but I can also know I need space from you. Just the, like, the word kind of turns you on your head. You're like, I can do that, but I could do this. And like even like one of my clients had like a mishap with like the guy that she's been talking to whatever. And it was like just a miscommunication with text. And at first it was, I rate and da-da-da-da.

And I had to call her out. And I was like, whoa, what's your part in this though? You know, like she was like, well, we text three days ago. And then I didn't hear from him. And I was like, but did you have plans? And she's like, yeah, we had confirmed them the time and the place. and I said, okay, what was your part in this? Well, but why should I have to reach out?

And I'm like, so everything is happening too, right? There's no accountability of, yeah, that's true. If I wanted to make plans tonight, I could just very easily text like, hey, I'll see you tonight. And then sure enough, ended up or the guy texted her like an hour later being like, very confused of like, but we had plans. We had a reservation. Like, I spoke to you literally like it ended up being like the day before. It wasn't like three days.

But it shows you where, and nothing to knock against this person, but it just shows you where like when we're so in our shit. that we start to do the like, I want to, like the never. They never text me. And I said and I was like, talk to me. So what was the 17 text you just described to me as? And that's where it's just, oh, yeah, you're right. Oh, yeah, I guess I do see that.

To me, that's what healing allows us to do. It allows us to start to challenge this narrative that we are creating that it's my way or the highway, the black and white thinking, nope, it has to be this. And if it's not this, then you're wrong. And I think that plays into that perfectionism as well, because at least, for me, well, actually, even before I get to that, my mom has always said one thing that I really love, and I think that pertains to healing is she would always say, like, there's no, you know, when people are like bad energy, and she's like, what do you mean bad energy? Energy is energy.

Like, it's not a negative. She's like, but based on science that literally, like, that's not, it's energy, right? And so when people are like, that's a bad emotion and she's like, but who's dictating bad or good? What it is is like, we are humans with a full spectrum of emotions and we need to learn how the fuck to feel all of those things before we can even think about how we can process and deal with human relationships because if you think it's always going to be good, good, good, good, good. Guess what? You're not going to appreciate it when it's not. You won't be able to appreciate how amazing your partner is if you're so entitled and used to it until you have somebody that treats you like fucking garbage. And then you're like,

oh, I see. And I think just broadening. I don't even remember what the first. fuck I was going on on that other tangent. I just started going off on this. So we'll just go with it and the other one will come. But I was going to say there's so much there that there is so much good stuff there. You're so right about the emotions. And I think you started out talking about like the contradicting thoughts and the contradicting perspectives and how it's important to acknowledge that, which is why I'm a really big fan of the nervous system. I feel like it's a really approachable way to get into seeing other perspectives and not assuming your perspective is correct. Right. Or. just understanding my perspective, there's truth in my emotion, but my perspective is based on my

nervous system. That's where the always and the never's come in. I know the second I'm saying that I'm disregulated. It's not like I never say that. I'm just now aware of like if I'm saying that, there's a level of dysregulation happening. So there is probably these conflicting emotions and I'm getting overwhelmed by it. But I think then that kind of brings us to the emotions beneath that, like what you said with your client, right? It's like, yes, you know, there's maybe something that person did wrong that was hurtful. But then there's also a part of it that was her responsibility. There's something to take ownership for. And I think what people struggle with is the conflicting emotions that bring up, meaning maybe that person did something that hurt them. That emotion is valid regardless

if they meant to hurt you, if they did something bad or not, that is a valid emotion. And then there might be other emotions. Like, damn, I think I did something wrong. And it's almost like in that moment we want to pick one over the other. And we're like, I can't hold both. I need to pick the one that's more comfortable. And I need to avoid the one that's less comfortable. And I think that's what starts to happen. There's always contradicting emotions, always contradicting perspectives, always contradicting truths. But I think most of us don't have the ability to sit with all of that. So we just pick the one that's easier for us and avoid the other and like double down. It creates this like polarization within us. And then I think that's where you started bringing up this full

spectrum of emotion, which I am really big on for many reasons. But like, yes, I think as human beings, we're brought here, not just to feel happiness, which is one elevated state of emotion. There is a full spectrum. It's like using the whole, like, spectrum of color. It's like you might, this might be your favorite color, but there's all these other colors that you want to draw with and experience and play with. And it gives you a really full experience, right? That gives your picture depth. That gives your life meaning. And I think that's so incredibly important. And you're absolutely right. Like on one hand, it's because, you know, you need to feel pain in order to really appreciate the good. I'd also say there's another part of it, which is even more foundational, which is all emotions

are messengers. They are bringing something to your awareness, whether that be something about your past, whether that be something about your desires, whether that be something about your fears. They are trying to bring something into your awareness. And when you're just trying to pick one emotion, the one that you're the most comfortable with, you are missing so much data, so much information that's there for you to play with, to use to move forward. And so that's kind of the bigger problem to me. It's how many people, because they're uncomfortable with all the other emotions and they're just fixated on one, they are missing all this information.

And then they're like, why don't I have clarity? Why don't I know what I want in a relationship? Why don't I know where I want to go in my life to really have that clarity and understanding? You have to be able to sit with all those emotions, move through all of them, process all of them and then kind of extract from them once you've processed the wisdom that they carry. And of course, that's only done on the other side. But you have to have the tolerance to be with all of them. And like I get it. I understand that for a lot of people, it's incredibly uncomfortable. Like, you know, any, listen, even think of something basic. And I know, and like, mind you, when I use

gym terminology, it's not because I'm like, oh my God, everyone should be doing this. But it's like, but it does work out really well to explain a fucking point. When I go to the gym, I lift her heavier, heavier, heavy, right? That's my goal. You have to rip a muscle for the muscle to then repair itself and grow stronger. You have to, you have to tear it down to rebuild it, right? Like you literally, that's how the body works. And I think as a child, you're right.

I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the coping mechanisms. I was fucking terrified. I wasn't prepared to feel these emotions. because at such a young age, I was thrown in, let me get such a young age, literally out of the womb, I was thrown into these emotions that I wasn't prepared for. And I think for a lot of folks, now it's like that fear of like, I can't handle it. And it's like, no, you can fucking handle it.

You're just not enjoying it. And it's like, you're right. When I go and do deadlifts, the whole time I'm done being like, God, this fucking hurt. But then after I'm like, oh, but I feel great. Man, that was great. I'm so glad I pushed myself because you know what? I didn't die. I didn't hurt myself.

I didn't do all of those things. I was able to do it. And you grow confidence and you grow strength in these experiences of going, oh, yeah, okay, I was scared that that person never responded to me. And then they did. And like I realized, wow, by giving space and allowing some space, to me, that's healing. Like, if you really ask me, it's the ability to have space to then make a goddamn choice for yourself.

It's the ability to not react and instead respond. It's the ability to, and I'll give you a very, not short example. It's a short one. I'll make, I'll make it concise, said Sabrina never. But like, okay, the old me, how I used to handle situations and relationships and like, I've actually felt it creeping up is I would do the like, I can't do this. That was my, my MO was the like the, I'm done. And I would say that more so in the sense, like one, I was. I was, my friends would call me sabotage. I was like the queen of walking away from things because I was so uncomfortable with the unknown and I didn't know what was happening. so I can have control, right?

There's my version of perfectionism, if you will. And so, like, when they, in the past, if there were any issues in a relationship, any kind of conversation, because I had no fucking equipment, I didn't know myself, I didn't know how to use eye statements, I didn't know how to process things,

I didn't know how to understand what triggers me. I think it's a fucking superpower. And I didn't know how to say no. You know, I literally, like, was, you would be like, it was a survival against us if you said no, like that you weren't living past that night if you told my dad no to this day. And I remember just like anytime there would be a fight or an

like anything, like conflict, just totally normal, that would be it. I'd be like, I can't do this because I would hope that that person would be for connection. I would hope that they would use my protest behavior to be like, no, don't leave. I'm here. And when they would say, fine, I'm done, I'd be like, what do you mean? You can't leave me. And so now instead of like having an issue and then being like, well, you don't do this. Ryan and I had an issue the other night. And instead what I did was I was like, okay, I can change the dance steps here. And I instead was like, hey, can I share something with you? Always ask for consent. And I just expressed and I was like, I have to be honest, like, here's what's bothering me. And I would be doing myself a disservice if I don't share that here's the impact that

you had on me. Here's what you said. And here's how it landed on me. Here's the trigger that it brought up with me. And I need to share with you how it's manifesting within me because I'm really struggling. And I would need a little bit more support from you in this way. That was growth for me times a thousand because it's like, let's look, both scenarios, right? When I used to do the protest and the go outwards and the text a thousand, I was uncomfortable. I was scared and I had fear. Same when I had this conversation the other night. I was scared. I was uncomfortable and I'd fear. But the difference was I knew I had the tools in order to have an effective conversation with my partner and to be able to get to the root of the actual fucking issue. I still felt all the same emotions.

I still cried. I still validated my experience. And I still still. allowed myself to do all that. So nothing changed as far as how I was going internally. I was still experiencing fears and things like that. That doesn't go away just because you heal those parts of your inner child. She's still in there. But it allowed me to be like, whoa, the adult needs to handle this. You can sit back.

You don't need to handle this. Mama's got you. And then we were able to make fucking progress versus chasing my tail, like the tarot card of the fool, where I was just going and being like, but I don't understand. Why isn't it working? and it's like, hey, if everyone's calling you an asshole, turn around and see if you have a tail. That's an amazing explanation of it.

I love that explanation. I think you hit the nail on the head in really taking us through a scenario where you could see what growth and healing looks like and what it doesn't look like, right? Like you said all the emotions were still there, but how you handled it. Like what I hear is that you were able to move through the challenge. That's the only difference I hear. You were able to move through the challenge because you have the tools, because you have the gear. whatever analogy we want to use, we were able to move through the challenge instead of either running from it and completely being like, I'm done, or avoiding the problem altogether,

avoiding in both directions, right? Like, let's be real, you're avoiding in both directions. You didn't either. You moved through. You moved through the problem. You and I talk quite a bit about like emotions and processing emotions, sitting with your emotions. To me, it's moving through the emotion. I use the analogy of a tunnel, move through the tunnel, through the darkness to get to other side to the light. That's what we're doing. That's why we sit in the discomfort of emotions. We're moving through it, not running away and not also just like sitting down in the middle in the darkness and being like, I'm just going to stay here. Right? Like you're choosing to move through it. And I think that is. At the end of the day, that's what healing is because that's what it allows us

to do. Like that's how you know you're healing. That's a sign of growth, not not feeling those emotions, which is what you and I hear all the time from our clients, right? Like I hear it all the time. I I still struggle. I doubt myself or I'm, you know, sometimes still grieve a past relationship where I still feel sad about things. And they think that's a failure when in reality, that's not a failure. That's you being a human being. And a lot of my clients will say to me like, I don't want to feel this anymore. Like that's what I want. That's the goal. I'm like, that's not the goal. That's a protective mechanism. If we did that, we effectively made you not feel sad, be able to just like turn around, be like, F you, I'm done and not feel anything, we didn't heal you.

We honestly made you more fucked up. We gave you another protective mechanism. You put on even a more intense armor than you had before because now you're just completely blocking those emotions. So that is not healing whatsoever. And it's exactly what you said. And I think it also kind of brings us like now we're getting to the point of like, this is what healing is. This is what looks like. This is why we're doing it.

And I think that's also a great example, the argument that you just described, of how we do it. Because I think a lot of people also have a misconception around how we heal. They think that we heal by having like this linear trajectory, everything being better and better and better or everything staying exactly the same, perfect baseline, never getting upset. And to add on top of that as well, that it should always like that, here's all these epiphanies. That his healing is going to be the, oh my God. the big moments and you're like, exactly, right? There's like upward trajectory, big, big breakthrough, big breakthrough, big breakthrough. And like, that is healing. First of all, the breakthroughs are not healing. The breakthroughs are you having, connecting some dots intellectually. And that's it. Now you have to go act on it. Now you have to go live it. Now you have to go

challenge yourself, which kind of brings me to exactly my point, which is what the work of healing actually looks like is not this upward trajectory. It's not never feeling negative emotions. it's actually getting challenged. So I say in my clients, like in my program, like the best thing that could happen is challenges come up. You said that to me. You said that to me the other day. I think that to me all the time.

But when we had our session, because, yep, I have a coach. I have somebody that I talk to. And you even said, you're like, I want this to fail. I want this to burn. I want this to fall so that you can finally understand. Like you can really understand. You got this. It's okay.

And I'll do that with my clients. I'll always preface. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't give you shit. this works out or not. No, no, no, no. You having that conversation with them isn't because, well, that means it's going to be positive and it's going to happen. No, what that does is it allows your body to go, oh, she didn't die, right? She's okay. She's fine. Oh, wow. I'm actually all right. Oh, wow, actually, I felt a lot lighter after because I don't have to deal with this person's

bullshit anymore. That was a big thing for me too, that I didn't really realize when I was on my healing journey was like, I was going to say, you know, and I was like, you don't because you've been with Paul for so long. But like, I would date somebody and like your gut, the biggest red flag I always had about myself was I wasn't willing to admit to myself like I don't think this person's for me you know like that reality of because if you say it you have to act on it if you you know what I mean you bring it to the forefront by going I don't think they're right for me then you have to be like okay well then what am I doing right what I used to experience is when I would be dating somebody and I would know that like they weren't for me and having to admit that and all of that stuff in those moments like

when I would have to make that admission of like okay if you don't like this person you have to do something. What I noticed after, which was kind of like clockwork, was I would end it or they would end it right at you have that moment where like it was being squeezed. You thought your fucking eyeballs were going to explode. The second I would get the text from them of like, I'm not interested or whatever. You know, I don't think this is going to work or you say it to them. It would be a weight that was lifted off of me. I would find like, it was almost this weird relief that because it's like part of me knew this person wasn't for me or like the relationship that I was in wasn't the right one for me. But there was almost this fear of, well, no, I can't admit that, right? Because if I admit that,

then that means I have to fuck, I have to be alone and then I have to, oh shit. Instead of now, like, Ryan and I have conversations all the time where I'll be like, hey, like, we'll have and talking. I'll be like, hey, are we in an impasse? Like, is this that moment? And we've talked about, like, if this doesn't progress, this was a beautiful experience. If it does, great, let's keep it going, but there's no longer a fear of, oh, God, if it doesn't work, like, how am I going to? And you kind of avoid. To me, healing gave me that clarity and that safety in my own body to be able to realize, like, I might have avoided this entire time admitting that I'll be okay no matter what. But now with certainty, I will admit that no matter what, I'll be okay.

That's so, I actually forgot that I said that to you, by the way, but I definitely did. Let it burn. Yeah. But you're right. It's. you know, but I wonder if it's not just admitting to yourself that you'll be okay no matter what. I don't know if you really believe. Because I'm believing it, exactly. I don't know if you really believed you're going to be okay. And that's exactly why to you, to my clients, I always say that I'm like, sometimes I think the best thing that could happen is let this thing burn, let this thing fail.

And I know that might sound to someone who's listening kind of like cruel, like you want me to fail. It's like, you know what I am more than my client to succeed at like some endeavor or some, you know, relationship? I want them to see how powerful they are, how capable they are, that they could make mistakes, that they can get back up, that they could overcome difficult things. I think that will make them way more successful long term than having this one situation, which is clearly not serving them in the way that it is right now.

Maybe changes need to be made, right? Then having that situation go perfectly. And I think that attitude, like exactly what you were saying you have with your clients, just shows how much. trust I have in my clients. Like sometimes I could see in them a power they can't see in themselves. And so when I say that to them, and that's true for you, you know the conversation we had. But when I say that to them, like, honestly, the best thing that could happen is this thing fails. I don't mean that I want them to fail. I just mean, like, I could see your power is so beyond this.

Like, you are so capable and you don't see it. And the only way I can get you to see it is if this doesn't work out and then you find that there's something even better on the other side of that. even if that's a strength within yourself, right? Like to me, that is ultimately growth. And that is why I think the journey of healing looks like having a lot of challenges, having a lot of setbacks, having a lot of obstacles, having a lot of things not go the way you want. In fact, if I'm working with a client and everything is going exactly how they want, A, I'm like, are you challenging yourself? Are you putting yourself out there? Are you stepping out of your comfort zone? And B, I'm kind of like, okay, we missed some opportunities.

I'm a little worried because I'm worried when we stop working together and life gets real and challenges come up, will you have the trust in yourself to move through those? And spoiler alert, my thing did fail and I was fine, right? Like I'm totally okay. It's okay. You live. I have actually two specific experiences that I'm going to share because I think it's important for people to understand what we mean by let it fucking burn and allow.

Sometimes we have, not sometimes. it is imperative when you're on this journey to learn to fucking surrender. And I remember because during COVID, I was fucking terrified. I was like, that's it. My business is over. Software. By the way, if you shop, wear software.com, 20% off, do the work. You know, go support.

But anyways, when I had software, I have it. But when I had software during COVID, I remember we were barely making any money. I thought that was it. And it's like, and I use this as an example because whether you're in a business and you understand this or whether in a relationship or dating experience, it all blends in. So many people for so long were like, you know, it's not a failure if you close software. I could not fathom. Yes, it's a failure.

I would hyperventilate when I'd be like, what do you? But no, no, no, I have to run this company. And like, I would lose my shit. And the reality started to set in during COVID. I was like, I'm going to lose this business. Like, this is it. Until I was like, all right, like my friend Brooke text me. And she was like, do you tie-dye.

You're creative. I'm not a fucking tie-dye. Turned it into a million dollar business by tie-dying by hand for fucking months. And eight shit doing that. Now, that's not where the story ends. because by doing that, what did I realize? Oh, I didn't like the manufacturing that we had in Brooklyn because the quality wasn't there. So that meant I had to get manufacturing in L.A.

So then by doing that, I started to have a tie-dye collection. And then I started to expand. Business started to grow. I needed to move to California and start endeavors. Move to California. Pursuing software. It wasn't that the signs were against it, but the signs were pointing that this was not going to be the next Fortune 500 company. And started to do all that.

2020, 2020 rolls around Shark Tank. I'm supposed to be on Shark Tank. This is my moment. This is the one, right? This is the, there he is. Oh my God. And I'm courted and I'm going through six months of prepping. And I like kind of the business starts to kind of fall through the way because I'm spending so much time prepping and so much money and energy.

I'm making it through all the steps. And I'm like, and it's almost like surreal. I couldn't believe it. And I got on set. And I was on fucking set for Shark Tank. I was hair and makeup ready. Sabrina, you got your pitch. Are you good?

You're up next. And then they came in and said, I'm so sorry, we're not going to be able to fit you on today. And, like, my, talk about my world crash. Like, I was suicidal.

Like, I'm not going to lie. I was in a dark fucking place because I thought, this is it. This is it. And it's the same as, like, when you're dating,

when someone breaks up with you, and you're like, I'm never going to find anyone out. And I came home and I remember, like, just crying with Clem on the couch. And then he like, it was just whatever. Then, like, they did it again in September. And I was like,

I am done. What am I going to do? then he got sick a month later and I started my TikTok. So, moral of the story, and then here I am, right? That all mushroomed into all that you see. And so the reason I share that isn't because I'm vain.

Sometimes I am and I like to hear my story. But sometimes it's because I like to remind people that in those moments, you have no idea what's going to happen, right? So when you let it burn and you let it crash and you're like, okay, I have to let go with this.

I have to release. It's the same with like, stop trying to hold on to fucking people that are not for you. If somebody is trying to walk out of your life, open the door for them and let them fucking go so they stop wasting space for other people to enter. But when we're so hyper-focused on the know-no-no, I have to have this. It's like, as a child, you're right, that was my only caregiver. I only had one set of parents. And if I didn't have them, I'm dead. That's it, literally. Like, there was a mother that abandoned her child and she died.

So yes, that's very real. She went away for a week. Insane to me. I don't know if you heard about that stuff. Fucking insane. But anyways, but my point being, it was like, when I was a kid, right, I had no choice. Now I do. Now I get options. And in that moment when the shark tank set me home, yeah, I was literally terrified. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. Like, that's it. But then I was like, no, this isn't the end of the road for me. And I ponied it up. And I was like, head on, let's fucking go. I have the tools. I know what I need to do. And I kept fucking going. And by keeping going and allowing it to burn and not trying to hold on so tightly to software and make it something that it wasn't, this company is doing great now. And it's still around.

and it's still thriving. And now my other business is doing well because I made space and I made space for Ryan. I made space for all of this newness. I met you. I moved to San Diego. I started a new life because I allowed my old shit to burn and I didn't try so hard to hold on to it and grip at the ashes trying to rebuild a building that you can't do that anymore. Yeah, a thousand percent. And I would say, you know, something you said kind of stood out to me. You were talking about how, you know, when you're a child, like that's the only caregiver you have and you're fixated on them because they need to save you. They need to help you survive. It's your job. Right. It's their job. And I also think that another way to think about healing is realizing that you now have that agency, that you can save yourself,

that you have this power. Like truly, there's no other better word. You have this power within you to create your reality. And I think finding that agency, discovering that agency really is what we're talking about. Like that is at the root what healing is. And I really love what you're saying about surrender. And I actually really like something about your story because I think it gives some nuance to a sometimes another misunderstood oversimplified concept, which is surrender and letting go. And in your story, you didn't necessarily let go of the business. You let go of forcing it to be what you want it to be. And there is a time and place for both. There is a time in place to be like that person that you're barely dating doesn't want to be there, let them go. And then there's another time in

place to be like, there are certain things here that are coming up. Maybe I need to surrender what I thought this relationship should look like, well, my partner should look like. And maybe that, that is where there's surrender. And that doesn't mean that relationship is going to last forever. But it means maybe in this season of life, there's something for you to learn there. There's something for you to take ownership, a way for you to grow, right? Like, that surrender isn't just always walking away, that it's sometimes walking away from the idea or the image you have in your head of how that thing should look. And again, I think that is healing. Again, that's that gray, the brush strokes, the nuance. It's not black and white. It's not all or nothing. And it really is about knowing your power in all of that. That whatever you decide, you still have so much agency. You can create that reality. You can make different decisions. You could adjust. You could pivot wherever needed. No, beautifully said. You said one thing, though, that is so fucking important to talk on.

that not everyone's meant to be in your life forever, that we have to get very okay with people are going to leave. Part of that healing journey for me was understanding, just because we have a nice connection doesn't mean that you have to be in my life forever. Just because we had a great date does not mean that you also now automatically, two conflicting thoughts. I can think you're amazing.

I could go on a date and be like, wow, you're a fucking awesome human being. It doesn't mean you need to be my awesome human being, but you are an incredible person. And I get that all that. But if I'm so amazing, And it's like, I see amazing things all the time. That doesn't mean that it's going to be amazing for me.

I can acknowledge, wow, you are beautiful. You're not my type, but you're beautiful, right? Or you're handsome or you're this or you're that. That doesn't mean you have to be for me, because for me, what works might not, you know, I'm a fickle bitch. Like, it might be different. And I think we internal, we personalize. That was part of the four agreements that really stood out for me was don't take

things so fucking personally. They didn't add the fucking, but I did. But don't take things so personally. And I think one thing I really wanted us to make sure that we hit on. is the misconception and the debunking that healing ends up sometimes looking like avoidance. And I know you mentioned that earlier, but I want us to go a little deeper because I get that all the time of like, I was super anxious and then I got heartburned and now I'm avoiding. And it's like, no, dude, like none of this is how that works.

Like it's not just a ping pong match that with one person now you're anxious and now all of a sudden you're avoidant with the next person. And it's like, no, that's that disorganizes very much its own amalgamation. And once you meet someone that's disorganized, you're disorganized. you then are like, now I know what you mean by. Exactly. Then you're like, you'll know when you mean. Then you know what you mean by, oh, you're anxious and avoid it. Not. You're anxious to some people and avoiding with others. But I think what we really need to talk about and I'd love your thoughts is like how that really does start to make, like where that line starts to get

blurred between is it healing or you just fucking avoiding feeling what you need to fucking feel? Yeah. I think that's really important. Again, in this general conversation of of healing in general. right? Because, you know, initially we started this conversation talking about how healing it's not linear and how, you know, it's going through these ups and downs. I think now we're talking about how often, you know, actually, let me go back to, I was saying, for me, healing looks like perfectionism, right? And I think there's like a section of those people who are kind of similar to me in that way, where they think healing looks like avoidance. So, They think healing is avoiding anything that triggers them, anything that is uncomfortable,

anything that doesn't fit their perfect image of what this should look like. They think healing is avoiding that and they kind of give themselves a pat on the back for it. And I think we need to be very, very careful because that I think we all start out with the right intentions in healing. And then when it starts getting very uncomfortable, we start creating this bubble around ourselves. So I'm not going to do that. And that's too uncomfortable.

And that's not good for me. and we use all this like, you know, pop psychology terms to explain why we're doing it. And, you know, we use boundaries incorrectly and all of these things. All the time, right? But that's avoidance. You're confusing healing with avoidance. You are avoiding facing things. You are avoiding difficult dynamics, difficult conversations.

And I just think we have to be very mindful of that. I definitely see it in my clients who are dating when they take certain advice they hear online. and now they apply it to be like, no, no, I'm healing. Like that, you know, I deserve better or something like that. You do deserve better. But sometimes people are using that incorrectly as like a way to run prematurely instead of having the difficult conversation or instead of understanding themselves or expressing themselves, right?

So I think avoidance shows up in a lot of ways. And it's, it starts out very innocent. And I think that's why we need to call it out. It's so subtle. It's so subtle. It doesn't seem like you're doing anything bad. In fact, it seems like you're doing everything perfectly. it seems like you're doing everything right when in reality you're avoiding the very challenges

that would allow you to experience the growth that you desire 100%. And something I also see, so I know because you have that like the perfectionism and I think we should do an episode specifically on that later. So like we'll get to that of like what that even fucking looks like it means and how that manifests. But what I also see a lot of is the, a couple of things. One, it's like the, you're watching paint dry of like, but I'm not seeing results and I'm not seeing results and I'm not results. And it's like this just unrealistic expectation. Someone asked me, if I take your eight week course, will I go from anxious to secure? And I'm like, dude, there's nothing on this fucking planet in eight weeks that's going to make you go from anxious to secure anything short of a lobotomy. Like,

unless I just take out my gut and my heart and my soul and all of the years of trauma, nothing in eight weeks is going to just boop. That's it all of a sudden. And I think what happens is a lot of people, it's like, you know, when I was going to the gym for a while and I was like, but I'm not seeing results. and it's like, well, yeah, that's going to take time and discipline and consistency and showing up for yourself. But it doesn't mean that just because it doesn't work out or, well, I took your advice and the person still walked away. And it's like, okay, so, but what makes you think everything is a guarantee or that like,

I want to give up if it doesn't work or I should, maybe I shouldn't be doing the healing. And it's like, I think those are those moments where you need to have that faith of whatever. I don't really care what the fuck you think faith means of surrendering to, okay, cool, maybe this is that low, right? This is that ebb. I can't always be flowing. I have to be okay going in the dip to be like, well, buckle up. It's going to be a little rocky. Doesn't mean that it's up. That's it. Give up. I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. It's like, sure, then you're not going to get to your goal, right? Like, you're not actually going to make progress if every minor inconvenience is the end of the world because you're a lot fucking stronger than you seem to think you are. Yeah, there's so much truth in that.

And yeah, I think we're also kind of touching on. There's like a little bit of a misunder standing around like doing the healing work and then maybe something along the lines of like manifestation. I think people are like, they're very interconnected. I think the work is very is the same very much so. But I think you're describing people who are like, I'm doing the healing work. Why isn't everything turning out the way I want it to? It's like no one guaranteed that. Like we just explained what healing was. At no point did we say like the external world becomes exactly what you want, right? Like that is the long term goal. And I think the more you do it, where you take ownership and agency, the more you're able to create your reality. But it's not like

the second you start doing healing work, suddenly the external changes, the internal changes. That's what we're talking about. The mountain didn't change in your analogy. You changed. You were more prepared to take that on. And I think people are misunderstanding. Oh, I'm doing the healing so I can get what I want externally. It's like, please don't do the healing work for that. If you are coming into my courses or your courses with this like, I am doing this just so I can get this external result as quickly as possible. I think your goals are a little misaligned from the work that we do. 100%. I even had to make when we had a copywriter writing for the course and they put like,

this will get you the love you deserve. And I was like, delete. And I was like, no, no, no. Because that's, that is manipulation. Any coach or a therapist or anyone on the fucking internet. that will do. Do this to get them. Do this so you can have this is a lie to you. Because what that's doing is it's playing on your vulnerabilities and it's playing on the insecurities that you have. Oh, if I just do this, I'm going to be healed. And it's like, no. You know what I will tell you? It works if you work it.

If you invest in the course, if you use every. What's why people get upset with me and you taught me to drip out the course. That was your recommendation. I stand by that. And you should because people get so salty with me. They're like, I don't understand. I spend two days on week one. Why can't I get to week two? And it's like, because that's not how this works. It's not, okay, well, I ran the marathon. Now I want to do another. It's like, you also have to let your body process and heal and allow yourself to give yourself what people don't like, give yourself space because I understand how uncomfortable space can feel. Hello, queen of anxiety. I don't like it any more than you do. And even your recommendation to me, you're like, no, no, no, girl, you need to do things for yourself that don't

include your phone, that don't include distractions, that mean you have to sit down and do something for you. And now I actually make that a point where I'm like, I'm leaving my phone. Because it's like, yeah, I want to be back to being in my, you know, fuck off with these people like, well, we have phones in our hands 24-7. It's like, you choose to do that. I do not. You choose to think that everyone, that you should have access part of fucking healing is this, that you need to also learn that just because you choose to do things does not mean that everybody does. It takes 10 seconds to send a text. That's how you perceive it. Your lived experience isn't everybody else's because guess what? It's never just one text. And it's not and this is where we go to healing. And now you can start to understand that

black and white thinking of it. It's all this. It's everything we just spoken about. No ownership, black and white thinking, no agency. All of it. All of it. It's just very, it's everyone else. Instead of looking and being like, actually, sure, it might actually take 10 seconds. but maybe that person does not resonate with this like I do. Maybe that person is a lot more secure in this connection and doesn't need to text me because they don't need anything like that. I don't need that either. I want it.

Absolutely. And that is part of that accountability, taking ownership of your life and just stopping the victim mentality of everything is happening to me when it's actually that it's happening for you. A hundred percent. And like what we were saying before to kind of like add to what you were. saying it's like, yes, we are not promising you like some of these coaches. And to me, it's a lack of integrity. I'm with you. I will never promise that I could create some external result for you,

right? Because that's not why we're doing this. Like more so than like, I don't, I don't think that's ethical, but more so because like that's not why I want you in this. I want you in this because you are trying to change the internal. But here's like what I could promise that if you change the internal, if you change how you see yourself in that journey, you're going to, journey up that mountain, your ability, your how prepared you are, right? If that changes, then I fully believe you are equipped to then create your reality. If you start to believe this is possible for me, I can do this, I can overcome this challenge, I can sit with these uncomfortable emotions, I can face the fears. If you feel equipped, if you feel like you are capable, you are competent,

you have your own unique gifts, which is what we do this healing work for, then I fully believe that you have everything you need to change your external reality. Now, that change might not come tomorrow. That's not how life works. I wish it was. Someone who has a business, it's not like you dreamed it up and it happens tomorrow. You have to work for it. And by the way, I stand by the fact that, like, the fact that it takes time to get what you want is not a flaw. It's there by design. Because it's that process of having all those challenges, facing a lot of resistance, a lot of frustration. That's what makes you grow. And it allows you to grow into the person who could then receive and maintain that thing that you desire. Be a relationship, be it a business, right?

Like, if you could just snap your fingers and have the perfect relationship tomorrow, if you could snap your fingers and have the perfect business tomorrow, I would argue you are not equipped. You do not yet have the skill set to successfully receive and sustain and grow that relationship, business, whatever. You need to overcome challenges. You need to get frustrated. You need to build patience. You need to build resilience. You need those challenges. So yeah, like to those people who are like, well, I did all of this and it didn't work out. It means it's not working. It's like, yeah, it sounds like there are still more lessons you need to learn. You still need to build strength, certain muscle, certain skill sets. And that's by design. And I'm happy about that. You know, I'm not like upset that you didn't

get the thing that you wanted instantly. Like, I am happy you have more time to build up those strengths. So when it comes, you will be able to sustain. And that's my goal as a coach, not to like make your life perfect, but to make you resilient, to make you believe in yourself, to make you be able to like move through that difficult journey to achieve really incredible things. Because really incredible things take time. And, you know, but I know we're not not yet getting more into relationships, but like that's what I'm excited about. But with relationships, you need to have that. So you think you just want like that guy to pick you, then you lack the skills to be in a long-term relationship. I remember even you said you're like,

man, that common misconception note, you think dating is hard. The relationship is the hard thing. And that's also kind of like, I stand by that. Same. Like, are you kidding? This is the hardest thing I've ever fucking done. And that's also something that we need to call out. I am so fucking tired of getting like, well, it's hard. This is so hard. Well, easier said than done. And it's like, I'm sorry. Can we just stop for. Who the flying fuck ever guaranteed you anything in life was going to be easy? Because they lied to you. Maybe mama and daddy said that, but you know what?

Sorry that they led you wrong. Nothing in life is easy or fucking free. Even this like, I want a provider mentality. And it's like, don't worry, girl. When that provider mentality is cheating on you, left, right and center are fucking abusive and you can't leave because you have no money saved up because you wanted somebody to take care of you, right? The entitlement of, well, I should just be.

Like that fucking sprinkle, sprinkle lady, I was on a podcast. and she was like, what the fuck is with this shit? And she's like, how much entitlement that is? And it's like, and it's one thing, different, two very different experiences. I want to grow an empire with somebody. I want to have a beautiful life with somebody. I want to do all that. Versus, like, remember my brother used to say and he was like, I'm sorry, so let me get this

right. I need to be a billionaire. I need to have all the money. I need to take care of everything for you. I also need to have all the time in the world to satisfy your need. So I can't go work to make that money. And then I also have to be attractive and successful and only have eyes for you. Emotionally available.

Emotionally available. Who the fuck is this person? Because I'm sorry, are you that? And that's where we have to kind of like slap you in the face of like, your presence isn't the present. What the fuck do you also bring into this? Because you know what? I hate the saying of like, what do you bring to the table?

And it's like, I don't mean it in a condescending, misogynistic way. What I mean is what are you adding to this? Because by simply saying, like, I am so tired of this. Like, well, of course he should be paying for my dinner. I did my makeup and I did my lashes and I showed up. Of course he should be Ubering me. And it's like, listen, princess, no one owes that to you. Life is going to be fucking hard if you just think because you merely exist on this planet

that I should be kissing your ring. But the reality is that when we start to heal, you start to fucking humble yourself. You start to also realize, yeah, you know what? Maybe I ain't shit. Maybe I'm not. I'm just a person and I'm just merely existing. And not everything revolves around me that the lived reality of most people actually has nothing to do with you.

That's what healing taught me. One of the biggest lessons was that I ain't shit to anybody else in most scenarios. I'm a blip on their screen. And I think I am so much more important, I'm not. It's so true. I'm not. It's accountability. It's I need to show up for myself, not expect other people to see value in me and show up for me.

And life is hard. Life is hard. And the only thing I can do is get stronger, not just like expect it to get easier. And I think that's also healing. And to me, it's like we're doing this work to achieve something. to create something, right? Like that's why we're doing it. But the only way to do that is to get very good at moving through ups and downs and challenges. It's not by avoiding them. It's not by creating something perfect. That is the ultimate goal. And like if you think about it with like children,

like I'm thinking a lot about raising a child, right? It's like I sure, I think sometimes we think it's like, I just want my kid to have an easy life. But honestly, that's not my priority. My priority is not my child to have an easy life, my priority is to equip my child to have the confidence and the agency and the tools to overcome challenges, to know that like whatever she wants to achieve, whatever she wants to have, whatever she needs to overcome, she's equipped to do that. And I think that's exactly as adults when we're healing what we're trying to do. We're not trying to create some kind of perfect reality. We're simply trying to kind of build that inner strength, that inner fire, that inner resilience to be like, whatever comes my way, it's not going to be not painful. It's going to be

painful. It's just, again, I'm not trying to have my child never feel emotion. It's going to be painful and I'll grow through it. I'll find a way to grow through it. It's funny. As you were saying that, I was like, man, you know we hear all the time. I'm like, I want to give my kids what I didn't have. And I'm like, yeah, here's the problem. People think that's the financial or the monetary. What I want to give my kid that I didn't have was support, was the tools to be able to handle things, was the understanding that the world is a pretty mean fucking scary place and that you got this and you can make it through. I don't want to just, I want to teach them how to fish. And I didn't have that opportunity.

I didn't have the support. I didn't have the consistency. I didn't have the object permanence. I didn't have someone I could trust growing up. I didn't have any of those things and it manifested in my friendships and my relationships. And even as an adult being like, I don't trust people. Like, and not in like a, I make this a thing. It's like that's a very deep, seated underbelly that you and I have spoken about.

And we are going to do a friendship episode to really talk more because I think a lot of people always, I've got that all the time of like, this applies to friendships too. And it's like, relationships doesn't just mean intimacy. It doesn't mean you're fucking all the time. We have relationships with different people. You have a relationship with your barista. And so it's just about understanding like, I don't want, I want to be able to have the tools. And even like, even if you're right now, if you don't have kids, like, moi, maybe we can look at what do you want to give your inner child that you didn't have? I don't want to, you made that point to me when I bought my, and I got my trainer and everything. And you're like, You did what your father did. You stuffed that camera in your hands to say, well, here, be happy. Instead of going, you know what? She actually needs support, love, and guidance. She doesn't need just more things to stuff down her throat to make her happy. She actually just needed me and some space. That is such a great perspective shift of like if you don't have kids or you don't want kids,

honestly, even if you do, flip it and think about like what is it that you did not receive. And it's so interesting what you say about children, how many people. like try to give their kids what they didn't have, but they give them the surface level things. What that shows is they didn't go deeper to understand, did they really need money? Did they really need things, fancier vacations, or did they just need more support? Did they need their parents to be perfect? Or did they need their parents to acknowledge when they were struggling and be there with them in that darkness? Like that's what I hear more often than not.

Sometimes like, I need my parents. I've not done this. Like, no, your parents weren't going to be perfect. Just like you're never going to be perfect to yourself. Fuck now. Right? But you also didn't need your parents to create this like lavish life, which is so interesting. I think people try to give that to their kid as if that's what's going to make the difference.

And like newsflash, all the research shows, that's not it. It's the emotional support because the emotional support makes your kids resilient. I once heard Brunee Brown having an interesting conversation about this. And she was kind of saying like, I'm raising kids. I went through some tough things. You know, I don't want my kids stuff to go through. that, but I'm a really resilient person. And I want my kids to be resilient. So she's like, I constantly feel like pulled back and forth of like, how do I give them that? I don't want them to go through

trauma, right? And I think the way we give them that, and I think this is going to apply directly to everything we've been talking about, is you don't stop your kids from having challenges. You allow them to struggle. You allow them to sometimes not get what they want. And that's okay. You allow them to have, You don't protect them from never struggling, but you give them unlimited emotional support as they move through those struggles so that when they're adults, they have that capacity within themselves of like, yeah, I've been through challenges. And I know what it's like to feel supported. So I know what it's like to support myself. And I think that's exactly what we're talking about in healing. It's like the goal isn't to avoid challenges. It's not to never get triggered or no. It's to be able to move through those triggers. And no, you know what? Even if it's hard, even if it's painful, I could sit with that and I know I have the ability to move through it. 100% dude. I mean, talk about a mic drop in a place to put a pin in it because we know we could go on like those for decades.

But here we are. Truly? No, like actually though. We already talked for like an hour before we even started pressing record and then we're going. And they knew how long we could actually keep going like if no one stopped us and there were no time restraints. I actually would love to know the world record we could set.

I'm like just having a conversation. We totally could. Just I'm like, I'm like random. And the funny thing is you and I never really repeat. And that's what's crazy. It's like, wow, that's crazy. So we're going to continue this at dinner after and I can't wait. But before we scatute off, you got some things coming up, right? You got some fun news. I do have some fun news. And the best part of it is you guys are actually going to be the first to know. Your audience is the first to know. It's not officially released anywhere else. But I am launching a self-led version of the mind-body recalibration formula, which I think we're just going to be calling the formula now. I'm here for me. Right, right? Yeah. A bridge.

So we are going to be launching a completely self-led version. That way it's more accessible and that way you could take it at your own pace. And then you will have the option if you want to upgrade to the experience with having all the support for me, from our accountability coach, all the workshops. That's going to be an option. But you can get it completely self-led. Take care of your own time. There is, of course, a drip setting.

So you can't get all of it. It still takes a minimum of six months. But it is super comprehensive. It will take you step by. step through the six months, there will be a community element to it. And there's an incredible, like, 300-page workbook that goes along that just guides you through that whole journey. So, so much of what you and I talk about is really that, those phases of growth. And I really take you through what does growth in healing look like, phase by phase, step by step. And you could do

it completely on your own. And yeah, it's officially out. That's why I did that with the foundation course. I was like, you got to have some autonomy to be able to do what you need to do on your time. Not everybody's on a schedule. We all have different things. But that's also why I'm excited because we're going to have our course that we're going to create. And that's going to be very different than anything we currently have.

And that is not an upsell. You know what I mean? Like it's just a completely separate entity, but we are going to do something special which will be very soon. But TBA'd about the logistics of it. But we are going to do something and we're going to do two different ones, one to start of a very specific dating with your nervous system and how to support yourself and then one with relationships that will come in the future.

But we'll start with dating. So stay tuned. But for now, join the formula. The formula. And I actually have for your, I do have a discount code. So you can use early access to $250 to get $250 off, all capitals. It'll be in the show notes. And it will be in the show notes.

And you guys have first access to it. It's not going to be released for another couple of weeks from when the podcast airs. So I'm super excited. It's, yeah, we've been. working really hard for this. So I can't wait for it to come out. You can do the foundation course. You could do the formula. And there you go. There you have all the support that you could possibly in two very different like avenues. They're very, they're same, same, but different. They're not, they're complimentary, I would say. Right. Because like I think mine is more comprehensive on the

growth element and the step by step process. And I think yours really takes you into the nuance of bringing that work into dating. Right. And like you and finding you for going further in those specific romantic connections. Zooming in on like applying exactly what I'm teaching, but specifically to dating. So you're kind of like targeting it a little bit more and like in a very specific part of that journey. Totally. Yeah, we talk about dating patterns and limiting beliefs and it's like it's all with a nervous

system, but you still have to do that if you're out there dating or in relationships or in one. So I'm excited. We have so much. And it'll all be in the show notes. You guys can join whichever follow along on the socials. And as always, dude, thank you for joining us. do the work. Thank you so much for having me. This is always my favorite.