The Sabrina Zohar Show - 84: From Anxious to Secure: Building Secure Relationships with Dr. Morgan Anderson

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

Sitting down in the studio today, Sabrina and Dr. Morgan Anderson, a psychologist specializing in attachment theory, share their stories growing from an anxious to a secure attachment in their relationships. After experiencing an emotionally abusive relationship, Dr. Morgan committed to healing and understanding attachment theory. She emphasizes the importance of working through childhood wounds and learning to respond rather than react. Dr. Morgan and Sabrina discuss the significance of secure attachment in both dating and friendships, stressing that healing requires effort and self-compassion. They highlight that a healthy relationship enhances self-worth, and anxiety must be managed to maintain a stable partnership. Dr. Morgan's experience with her now fiancé illustrates that timing, clear communication, and mutual growth are vital for a secure and loving relationship. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back for another week, babes. Happy Friday, as always, I am so so happy to be here with you guys. Today, we are going to be talking all about anxious attachment and how to really actually start to like work through that anxiety and work towards a secure relationship. And I actually have Dr. Morgan Anderson. I love Morgan. She's fantastic. She is so, lovely. She has a very similar story of like having such high anxiety and really working through it. And now she's this amazing fiancee and she really works like I do to help people everywhere to heal through that anxiety and start to make those awarenesses. And guys, as always, let's do some housekeeping, shall we? So as a reminder, please, please, do not forget to rate the show.

So many of you guys listen to this and we do not get so many ratings. It is so simple. At the on Apple, you should literally scroll to the bottom and you can leave a review. You can write one or just leave stars. Please leave five stars if you think it's worth it. And then on Spotify, it's at the top. If you're on the podcast page, there are three dots. You click it and you press rate show. That's it. But if we don't get ratings, then we start to plummet on the Spotify charts and all the other charts. And then we don't have the sponsors. And then I can't do the show. And you see where this is going. So help a sister out. Please, please, rate the show. If you guys want more, if you want bonus episodes, you don't want to deal with the ads, great. You guys can become a

subscriber, you get two bonus episodes a month and ask me anything with me and tech guy and a custom episode that you guys get to choose as well as ad free for every podcast episode from the past to now. And guys, as always, thank you, thank you for everything. Don't forget the course is out. It is going. It is rearing. We just had our first like cohort of people that finished and the feedback was better than I think I actually ever could have imagined and I'm just so grateful. And it's something that like if you want to start looking at your limiting beliefs and focusing on your dating past, patterns and what's coming up for you? What's that inner child work? How can you reconnect with you? What are your boundaries and non-negotiables? These are all things that we go over in the course. You've got

eight weeks. It is dripped out. So you don't just get everything off at once. You have to actually do week by week and implement the information that you're learning because I genuinely want you guys to grow and heal. So you get worksheets. You get three meditations. Once you are done with the course, you have access for life. So you can come back anytime you need the meditations, anytime you need the support. It is there for you in all of those ways. And, you know, guys, not everybody can work one-on-one, and I totally understand. I'm actually going to be limiting my books a little bit more. So if you want to work one-on-one, take the advantage of it now and book out.

And if not, that's totally cool. That's why the course is there for you guys. But there's so many other things to work on. So I just want to share all of the options, guys. And as always, just thank you so much for the support. Whether you want to invest financially, just with your time, it doesn't really matter. Sharing this with your friends, listening, giving feedback, rating the show, following along and do the work on Instagram and Sabrina.

dot zoar on TikTok, now on YouTube. It's just, it fills my heart and it makes it so much more fun for me to continue doing this because I genuinely want to fucking help you guys. And I'm so excited to be able to continue doing that. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hey, Morgan. Hello, I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you. Welcome to the Do the Work Studios. Welcome to San Diego. Oh my gosh. I'm loving it. Oh, God, I'm so stoked to have you. I'm so stoked to have you because it's so nice to have a fellow girl, like anxious girly, that experience so much of the same, like, similar things, but also a different story. So I'm excited to introduce you to the audience, but could you, if you could, introduce yourself

to the audience of like, who is Dr. Morgan? Yes, I'm Dr. Morgan. I'm the host of the Let's Get Vulnerable Podcast. And I'm a psychologist who created a program helping women heal to take them from whatever. attachment style they've had to become securely attached. Basically, I've taken my life's work and understanding attachment styles and helping people heal no matter what's happened to them. And I love this work because I had my own personal journey of having anxious attachment,

of having toxic relationships on being on the daily roller coaster and then learning how to become securely attached. I'm curious, if we could, could you share a... a little bit about your story because I know I got to meet your man. But I think it would be really great because like so many people know mine. And it's like, and Lord knows. But like what was your journey with anxiety, anxious attachment and like your dating experiences? Like what were you seeing?

Yeah. So I and I'll go all the way back to childhood because I think that's helpful. That's where it starts for us all. Right. I lost my mom at a young age. I was I was six years old. And what happened. after that was a lot of chaos in my childhood. Essentially, my dad didn't really know how to cope with

it. And he started dating and he basically was very emotionally unavailable. And I think anytime you have a sudden loss like that as a child, I couldn't rationalize it. I couldn't make sense of how this happened. All I knew is my mom was there one day and then she was gone the next. So I think anyone who has lost a parent at a young age can relate to how that creates anxious attachment style. Yeah. So then growing up, I witnessed my dad in a couple unhealthy marriages, and I learned that love wasn't safe, and I experienced a lot of difficulty in my relationship with my dad. I'm thinking about it.

It was just Father's Day. We've worked so hard on our relationship, and I can say now we actually have a good relationship, but back then, I didn't feel like a priority. I felt like I needed to change myself to be loved by him. And I was constantly trying to earn his love. So what happened? I started dating emotionally unavailable people. Yeah. Even from my first boyfriend in middle school was like a long distance relationship. I'm in middle school because I think this also happens where you just like want that love of someone with anxious attachment. I would have done anything. just to get someone to notice me.

And then I felt like my relationships just got worse and worse and worse. And I was in graduate school, studying to be a clinical psychologist. And I found myself in a relationship with a narcissist. Fun. Yes. And this was the first six months. You know how it goes. It was all the love bombing.

I was being flown around the country. And I was a broke grad student. And I'm going out to all these fancy dinners. And I'm getting all these gifts, meeting the family, going on the family vacations. And I thought, oh my gosh, I met my person, right? Oh, yeah. And then six months in the gradual discard phase and the devaluing started to happen.

And I experienced a lot of emotional abuse. And I found myself at a rock bottom moment. I was filling out a police report in the lobby of my apartment building. And I just remember watching my neighbors walk by. and I was so embarrassed and I saw like the looks of pity that they had for me and I just didn't recognize myself in that moment. I had one of those out of body experiences where I thought, okay, I can keep going down this path, but it's going to get worse and worse, or I can decide to heal.

And I need to figure out how do you have a healthy relationship? It was like in that moment, that became my question, how do you have a healthy relationship? And I decided to throw myself into researching it. And then that's when I discovered attachment theory and attachment styles. And here we are today. I mean, it took me a long time to do my own work. But now I've helped over 600 women go through the program I created. And I'm in an incredible relationship of over three years now with an emotionally available partner who chooses me.

and we're engaged and we have a really healthy, secure relationship. Oh, I love that. I think this is like a few, by the time this comes out, a few weeks ago, Masha and I had our episode of like the realities of healing, right? And like, you know, we see all, you're on the internet like I am. You know, we're both, we both have two eyes and thumbs. And we see so much bullshit of like, healing means this. Like I saw a podcast the other day that was like, she was a doctor saying this.

And she was like, if somebody's triggering you, you need to not. date them. You need to stop dating people that trigger you. And I was like, okay, what a waste of a generalized statement because what we're doing here is like it's just it's not taking your pain and turning that into purpose and being able to look back because like let's think about it. The experiences that you had as a child in your young adult life going into college, avalties, you would not have known what shit felt like to be able to appreciate a beautiful and incredible man like your partner. And without feeling that rock bottom, And without feeling like you're gripping at straws, that sometimes is when you have to like open up your palms and be like, all right, I release, right?

I surrender because I have a very similar story in this sense. I did not lose a caregiver early in my life. You might have kind of felt like I did, but like not in that same vein. But still having that anxiety and understanding and like constantly just wondering like, I don't know about you. For me, it was a little later. I was 27, almost 28 when I started to do this work. And I really for so long, I was like, there's something wrong with me. No one else goes through this because you talk to your friends and your friends are like,

hey man, I don't have that much bad luck. My family is always shaming me. I don't understand. You're beautiful. Why are you not with a guy? Oh, Sabrina's the problem. And I was curious to hear kind of your experiences with like working through what that, like, how lonely it can feel as well when you're in this phase.

Like I sometimes even think back on past me and I'm like, how did she do it? You know? I was in grad school and I was in this really toxic relationship. It's like you made me go back to this experience. And this, this relationship was so bad. The guy was an alcoholic. He was doing drugs because we know that if you can be emotionally available if you're in a relationship with substances. So anyways, that was who I was dating at that time, an alcoholic. And I was trying to make new friends in grad school. I just moved to Portland, Oregon. And it was this girl. And I thought we were like best friends. We were spending all this time together. I started

telling her about my dating life. And she said, I can't be friends with you anymore. She cut the friendship off. Stop it. And we were basically didn't speak for the four years that we were in the same program. And she just, she didn't have emotional capacity for what I was going through. So eventually my way of coping with that, I just would never tell anyone about my relationships. I would not introduce anyone I was dating ever.

And I think that's so sad. I really compartmentalized my love life because I was so ashamed of it. It's funny. Actually, as you said, I love how my reaction, I was like, jaw on the floor until I realized like, oh, I kind of did that. No, okay, I didn't do that to somebody in the same vein. I had a friend. And like, this is the interesting thing about having like severe anxious attachment style. Not, you know, somebody wrote being like, do secure people have anxiety and dating?

And it's like, okay, anxiety is normal. Anxious attachment is where the line starts to draw on. It's like anxiety of, I don't know what's going to happen. in and I'm a little confused, like, is this person going to call me back? Like, what is this? Being a human. Where the anxious attachment starts to come in is like, what's wrong with me? Did I not do something right?

I'm such a piece of shit. No wonder nobody wants me. I have to get them and hyper fixating on them choosing you. I'm like, that's the divide. Yes. But it was when I lived in Venice and I've been on my journey for a minute and I get very, I'm not even going to say, I used to say triggered. It was the incorrect use of the word.

It's not triggered because there was an actual fucking issue. So it wasn't triggered. It's like, no, there was something there to cause the anxiety. It's not like it was a neutral inaction. Yes. And it was a friend of mine. And she, when I say anxiety, it was me at my worst times a thousand. Like, where she would just tell me what's going on.

And I'm like, I remember it was this guy she had met. She had like one date with him and his brother passed away. He was a recovering drug addict. The brother was a drug addict and overdosed. And so the guy, rightfully so completely, he even told her he was like, I'm removing myself. Like, I can't even handle this right now. And she made the entire thing about herself. Like every day it was like, I don't understand.

I even heard from him and he's not reaching out. And I kind of like one day I had to stop and I was like, dude, I can't fucking take this anymore. I was like, I love you as a friend and I love being with you. I was like, but you're so anxious that it takes away from the time that we spend because the whole time I'm walking. I'm trying to get you to not walk off this ledge. And after a while it becomes exhausting. And like this is kind of the thing with the ink to attachers. Like it's not that there's something wrong with you.

but it's also being cognizant that like if your anxiety is that high like not everybody has to stick around and take it. No, I'm so glad we're talking about this because when I look back at that experience, I actually understand why she said, I can't be friends with you. We were in grad school. We had these huge demands on our time. She didn't have the emotional capacity or time for my anxious attachment spirals. And honestly, I get it. And I think it's it's so important to realize that when you start becoming secure, it's, It's not just going to help in your romantic life. This is also going to help in your friendships. I have whole friendships that I had in my 20s where all we did was talk about boys. Oh, yeah.

And dating, you know, analyzing each other's text messages at brunch to see like, oh, what did you say to that? What do they say back? I have whole friendships that I've had to redefine now in my 30s of like, oh, who are you? What do we want to talk about when we're not in an anxious spiral and consume? by our relationships. And I just think every area of my life has gotten better, the more securely attached I've become. And you realize there's a lot more interesting things to spend your time on than, oh, did he

text me back? The, we all know the hill I'm going to die on about the texting thing. And it's because I was her. I don't know about you, but like I was her. I would, I remember, like, I would tell my mom. And I had, like, I had that same thing. I had a friend. And I think she was.

She was definitely avoidant. And this was like one of my closest friends for years. And I stopped being friends with her in LA. Like I am the one who I was just like, I'm done. Like she had just, it was like one too many selfish things after a while. Like she would make everything about her. And it was just kind of where I was like, I'm done. Like, I don't want to do this, dude.

We've been friends for 10 years. And I'm like, it doesn't need to be 10 more. And the big reason being is like, I want to be around people that challenge me that call me on my shit of like, hey, are you sure about that? Like, do you want to talk about this? And instead it would be like, I would send her like, you know, hey, like I just got this text. You know, you do the analyze. and I don't understand. He took 37 minutes to respond.

What do you think this means? And instead of being like, like, hey, you know, hey, I think like something's coming up for her. Do you want to talk? She would chastise me and, like, ridicule me and guilt me. And I was just kind of like, okay, like, you don't need to be the start. But then she would go do the same thing. She would turn around and do the exact same thing. And I think it's like really being cognizant.

I think, you know, when we even think about like this spiraling and the ruminating and like when you're around people that egg that on and enable that, then you can't be surprised why you're not able to get off that ride. It's so true. And I think, I mean, obviously these dynamics show up in friendships, too, of being anxiously attached and being attracted to those avoidantly attached friends who can't really give back to you in a supportive way. I did that for years. I was like the sidekick. Yeah. You know, it was never really allowed to be the main character in my life. I felt like I was just playing a supporting role in so many of my friendships. And the funny thing is, and then we start, like, I was the same, but yet in romance,

I had to be the main character of everyone's movie. I had such main character energy of like, I don't understand. How could you not be thinking of me today? And it's like, because this person, you're nothing to this person. Like, as much as I love a lot of people,

you do not impact my life in the way that these people might think that they impact my life. Like, and I think that's also kind of a reality to face, especially with high anxiety, thinking that like everybody's, every, that your lived experience is everybody else's. And it's really about taking a step back to understand that like,

yes, I might be anxious because this person, didn't text me and I might be looking at the clock and counting every second that goes by because realistically I don't want to be abandoned. This has nothing to do with the other person. And you talk to them how many times I talk to people and they're like, oh, there's an issue when you're like, your partner's been freaking out. They have no idea because it's so true. Like we make everything, especially when you have that anxiety, like everything becomes so about us that it actually like, to me it's, I was being disrespectful to other people because I was making my issues that now had to be

theirs. Yeah, this is so huge. And I love that you talked about it's not even about them talking about so I love this term repetition compulsion. Ooh, tell me more. So that is when we are dating our childhood unfinished business. Okay. I've done that. Right. So we're taking our, the dynamics from childhood and we're repeating them in our adult romantic relationships. And it's the unconscious wish this time I'll get a different result. And then it's, going to make up for everything that I experienced in childhood. Yeah. I think this was Freud's one good contribution.

I know. There's a few things, Freud. I'm like, yeah. Okay. I think the other one was that a narcissist is the only one that can't work with a therapist. And I was like, okay, Freud. Yeah.

I'm here for you. But this whole idea of, I think so often we're going through a breakup or through a rejection and we're on the floor and we can't get up. We're curled up in a little ball and we're like, the world is over. My life is ending. But it's not about that person. No. It's about the wounding.

It's about that fear of abandonment about, hey, my biggest fear came true. I was abandoned. I'm not good enough, right? It's that wound that's getting poked. It actually has nothing to do with this person. So I think that's why one of the most powerful things I did on my healing journey was addressing those core wounds. And then I'm not taking that unfinished business into my dating life.

100%. For me, like getting uncomfortable was really important. I continue to every day. I have to challenge thoughts, you know, like you're a human. Like you said, the anxiety, when you start to work on that anxiety, that anxious attachment, it starts to manifest in different parts of your life. And like for me, I always thought, no, no, no, it's just in romantic relationships. Then you meet somebody really amazing.

You start to do all this work in this relationship and you really focus on healing those parts until I then saw, okay, now I'm having issues with friendships, not issues, but that anxiety is manifesting. Okay, started to address that. Then you start to realize, oh, now in business, I'm thinking that. And I really looked at it as like, and I get it. A lot of people say, but I'm on the show. I'm on the spiral.

I'm on the spiral. And I'm like, if you can just do even one thing to cut through that, whether that be, I have sour candies all over my house because sour candies, your brain cannot think about worrying about the future, but also understanding what's happening in your mouth. That, even if it's 20 seconds, I'm like, that a bit of space allows your brain to be like, oh, you've never done this before. Let's do another 20 seconds. To be able to stop and be like, okay, wait a minute. sure that black and white thinking because I wanted to talk to you about that too like black and white thinking especially when it comes to anxiety and like to me I was her I was the if he doesn't text you every day this guy doesn't like you if he wanted to he would and it's like all those little vulggin bullshit bumper stoker slogans until I had to stop and be like wait a minute you've had 30 dudes that text you morning noon tonight that text you good morning right before Clem passed away the guy was we had cute little nicknames in our phones and we were texting each other all the time and we were spending every day together and he met all the night and he met all the morning

my family, but then when Clem died, where the fuck was he? At home watching a movie, actually, to be honest. He didn't want to come over. And so after that, that's when my world kind of shook up. But I am curious because in that vein of shame and blame and guilt and kind of like all of those emotions, can we talk a little bit about like, where does that really stem from? Like Freud said guilt and shame are based on like being scared of being reprimanded by your parents. But when we're talking about healing through anxious attachment and having a lot of like someone asked, you know, all these guilt I have about the past versions, how I treated people, things like that,

how did you, I'll share mine after, but how did you specifically on your journey or how do you advise people when you're dealing with all of that guilt and shame of like, I want to become a better person, I shouldn't be talking about my parents this way or, oh God, I've treated this person terribly, but wait, I want to get better, but look how bad I was. The list goes on. I think you really do have to get to this place where you go, I was doing the best that I could at the time. Yeah. Maya Angelou, you know, when we know better, we do better. And I think for me having an understanding of attachment theory, help me really get to that place of compassion. Yeah. Because I can understand, oh, my attachment system was operating in a way for

survival because connection is survival. So being anxiously attached, of course, these were the relationship behaviors that I had. These were the fears I had. These were the things that I did. And now that I'm healing and I'm releasing all these negative beliefs about relationship. relationships and beliefs about myself. And now that I'm becoming securely attached, oh, I know that I can do better. I can show up better. But I have to have that compassion for my younger self

because it just developed out of survival. Yeah. We need connection to survive. We're simply showing up in ways that we think are going to guarantee us connection. So you have to have that understanding of, okay, it's this, it's the dialectic, you know, that that, that term where two things can be true at once. Two conflicting thoughts.

So two conflicting things. I have to accept, okay, I was doing the best that I could at the time. Maybe I had an anxious attachment style and that's what I had as a way to survive and have connection. And now that I'm aware of this, I get to understand I'm the common denominator in my relationships. Oh, yeah. I get to decide I want to become securely attached so I can have a healthy relationship. You have to make the decision and intentionally decide to show up differently.

And just like you said, slowing down the reaction, learn how to respond instead of react. My fiance and I always joke. My favorite word is intentional. Yeah. I say intentional all the time. So we talk about you have to have an intentional response. When you're dating, you want to be dating intentionally. For me, it's a lot of identity work too.

and now I'm thinking about it, it's like, okay, who is securely attached Morgan? Yeah. Right? How does she operate? How does she speak? What are her boundaries and really becoming that version of me? 100%. People ask me all the time, how did you figure it on negotiables?

I'm like, shit I wasn't going to put up with. Consistency. My father was inconsistent. Every day it was a different version of him. And I was like, that's a no-go. I'm like, I don't know about you. After living in major cities, there's one statement I make that if you don't live in a major city you just don't understand what I mean. The person I go to bed to is the person I want to

wake up to. Oh yeah. And some people are like, what do you mean by that? I'm like, I can't tell you how many times in New York you'd have the best night ever. This guy was all over you, girl, it doesn't matter. I'm a straight woman, so I'm going to talk in heterosexual norms. And then the next morning you wake up and it's like, they're ushering you out of the house as if they've never seen you before. And you're just like, what happened to that though? And all of a sudden, you're completely closed off on me. And that was really important for me to take stock of like, okay, what is it that I say I want and what is it that I'm receiving and what's the disconnect? So I say I want a secure partner.

Half the time when I ask people, like, what do you want in a relationship? Oh, I want someone I can do stuff with. And I want my ride or die. And I'm like, okay, this could be why you haven't met that person yet. What does that mean? Yes. Because to me, my ride or die could be somebody that is in bed by 830 with me and up at five so that we can go to the gym and do all of the stuff that we need to do.

And we have a complete schedule. To you, a ride or die could be somebody that you go traveling with at your bed. but I think until you understand what is it that I want and then also like even that shame and blame like I used to shame and blame myself all day you should be doing this you should be doing that what the fuck is wrong with you Sabrina until I realize wait a minute I'm talking to little me like that yeah every time I talk shit to myself to myself to myself I'm like cool yeah every time I talk shit to myself to myself right yeah I don't need to create a narrative though because like oh I can't do anything right and until I realize like okay I can hold space I can hold myself accountable and be like hey dude that's not cool right like I don't need to create a narrative though because like oh even today, I post a video saying, you know, about the texting that like, you know, everybody has their phone in their hands for 10 seconds. That doesn't mean you deserve access to me. Like, even if I had my phone, just because you think I have my phone in my hand does not mean I owe you a response. And someone said, well, hate to break it to you, but 96% of people agree with that. Everyone thinks this. And I wrote back to him and I said, where are the facts?

Give me the studies. Give me the data. Give me the facts. Because what I hear is anxiety. What I hear is all of my experiences have been this. 96% of the people I encounter have done this. And that's when I'd be like, cool, what's your part of this? Yeah. Right? Like, I don't know about you, but that was a huge question. I asked myself a lot. What is your part in this?

Not to blame myself, but to take accountability of I let another emotionally unavailable person love by me. 100%. Oh, we have to take accountability. Are you into IFS? I love I, internal family systems. I am. I had Robert Schwartz on my podcast, actually. It was like so fun.

I was like, wow, I read your books at grad school. That's awesome. It's a fan girl moment for me. But I think about we need to internalize that ideal parent. Yes. And a parent has boundaries. A parent is going to hold you accountable. A loving parent that is securely attached with you, they're going to say,

hey, Sabrina, next time do this, but they're not going to beat you up. They're not going to be critical. They're going to be loving, but they're going to be clear and boundaryed. So I think sometimes and sometimes. self-help. It's too much of, okay, we want the love and acceptance without the hold yourself to a different standard. Right. And we do. We have to change. We have to change our identities. We have to take ownership or nothing changes. Nothing changes. Nothing changes. And I think that's like probably the not probably, that is the issue I have with like the pop psychology. If just everything having like,

to me, the pop psychology feels like black and white thinking. It's like if it's not this, then it's this. And there's no space to understand like how people, operate. When I asked about this episode, I think we had probably 40 different people being like, I need exact tools. Can you give me quick fixes? I need tips. How do I just stop caring about texting? And it's like, here's the exact reason why we're not going to do that. One, not sustainable, not realistic, but also you need to learn to fucking invest in yourself. Because if you think healing is, I'm going to listen to every podcast, watch some TikToks, and then just download some free guides, who's holding you accountable? Who's challenging your thoughts? Who's teaching you new perspectives?

who's understanding it's just not feasible. And when it comes to this work, I don't know. I could speak for myself. And I'll say this and I'm curious your thoughts. There is no fucking quick fix. No. I will openly say my first coach that really, really helped me. In all things, it was also like a business coaching as well, but it was also relationships.

It was everything. But I invested $10,000. That was not even money I had at the time. But I had to invest. in order to really make a change. And I think you're so worth it. If you're not willing to invest in yourself, then I just don't know that you're quite ready.

And it doesn't have to be $10,000. No. I know that's a lot. But you have to, it's like you have to break through that belief that you're not worth it. And like the guilt of spending money. You know, of like, oh, how am I?

Like, I have people even that'll be like, I can't afford to spend the $7 on a subscription. And I'm like, that's cool. I get it. I have so much space. I've been broke before. Yes. But it's like,

but you can find your priority. right? Like, well, then, you know what, maybe for a month, like, don't have your Netflix, right? Like, if you have Netflix and Hulu and HBO and you're getting your matches every morning, it's like, yes, maybe then it's like what you're telling me is that your priorities are external factors that make you feel better versus, and again, it's not, it's not about, oh, come by our course. No, no, no, go find a therapist. Go invest your money in, you want to work with a coach, you want to take a course, you want to do, but do something because when you put money, exactly, you're telling yourself, I'm fucking worth it. I deserve this. And I care about my.

myself. That is an act of self-love. Absolutely. When we pay, we pay attention. Oh, you have to invest. Okay. So I do want to ask you. We're going to do a slight pivot here on the, but it's not too much of a pivot because I did not know that you were long distance with your partner. Yes. I had no idea. And I am so curious to hear how a positive long distance experience, because people were down like, I am super highly anxious. To me, long distance never worked. It was really tough for me. But I'd love to know your experiences and how you actually can be successful in a long-distance relationship. I love this, Sabrina, because I did a ton of long distance in the past before this that was so unhealthy. Yay, paint me a picture. For me, it was like, okay, if they live in a different country,

awesome. Like, they live in Mexico, awesome. They live in Spain. Cool. Like, I was all these different countries. And I remember one guy I dated was in North Carolina. And it turns out the one day he didn't text me. He was actually getting married. So very... That'll happen. So that'll... And there's the, can we just even take a second, the one day he didn't text me to show that it's like, somebody can text you every fucking day and FaceTime and phone calls. It does not mean that they want a relationship with you. 100%. Every, I mean, I was getting pictures, face times, everything every day. I found out I had a friend who was like a CIA girl. We all have those friends. Of course we do. She was. went on and she found the

registry for the wedding yeah the FBI should if the FBI should just hire women I don't understand how how are they not all crimes would be solved right right okay so you've had the unhealthy I've had the unhealthy

and I know you know this when we are anxiously attached we will gravitate towards those dynamics those are like there are fantasy oh yeah I've been in many if I can just get that emotionally unavailable person to love me right then it's going to prove I'm enough and the fantasy of like oh I'll move there and we'll be able to live and it's like no no no that's a fantasy and it's fun to go after long distance especially when you match online and you're like they live in this other country and we can't meet for six months but we're going to be together it's like yeah it's something else you know something new

from exclusively on Paramount Plus it's the series stephen king calls scariest hell everything here is impossible but it's also real sci-fi vision because of the best show streaming right now. We're running out of time and we still don't know the rules. Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home. From Binge All Episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. So the whole story of my partner and I, we dated in 2011 for six months. We went to undergrad together.

Cute. And we met playing beer pong, if that gives you any idea of the dynamic. We were having. We were having so much fun during our college years. And honestly, we both had issues with our relationship with alcohol. We definitely were both binge drinking. This was not a conscious relationship. This was like we were hanging out and having fun.

And we broke up after six months because I was going to get my doctorate in clinical psychology. He was staying another year because he was a super senior because he wasn't really prioritizing school. So he was an undergrad for like six. six years. Super senior. You know, while I had two majors and I was done in four. Anyways, so he's doing his thing and then I went to Portland. But this man, he would call me once a year, every year for 10 years.

No way. Just to say hello, it was not like a flirty thing. It was just genuine. I care about you. We had a connection at one point. Was it the same day every year? Was it like a calendar? Okay.

So it was always random. Okay. And there were a couple times. I remember vividly I was driving downtown. here in San Diego and I was so busy and I was on my like boss babe you know and I was like I don't have time to talk to you wish you the best like take care like I was very avoided in that moment okay hung up on him still called me the next year so this man was just very persistent and it was 20 20 it was during COVID I was living in my family's basement in Montana on our 90 acre ranch and he

called me. And I thought, what the heck? I'll talk to him. This will be fun. Because, let's be honest, there wasn't a whole lot of dating going on. It's COVID. So we talked and we just had the best conversation. I think our first call was three hours long. And we just caught up and he was really, really, really curious about who I was and what I was doing. And he was, he's very emotionally available, always has been, came from a very secure childhood. Okay. So very, very, Very different from mine. And you know what? I realized I had changed enough to then allow him into my life, to then receive the kind of love that he was ready to give.

But yeah, we were long distance. I was in Montana. He was in Cape Coral, Florida. And we would do phone calls. We would do face times. And then I remember vividly I was in the parking lot of the post office one day. And I texted him and I said, hey, are you serious? about this actually being a relationship.

If so, I would like to come visit you. Put your dick on the table. I'm here for it. You know, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not fucking around. No. I'm 32. And can we like just put a pin on that that like, my ladies, it's time to pony up. It's time to fucking articulate how you feel. It's time to tell people how you feel.

What do you have to lose besides your goddamn self-respect if you just let somebody know like, hey, I like you? Are you jiving? Are we in this? Are we not? Because if someone's going to tell me. me, oh no, that's going to scare them off. It's like, Arruiderti, baby, I'd rather see you get the fuck out of my space than waste more time

in it. I always tell my audience, you're going to love this, stop watering plastic plants. Do not give your energy to a relationship that can't grow. Thank you. Oh, I love. I do love that. Thank you for that. And so, okay, so when you made that call, was he like, fuck, yeah, so you know that moment where you're like, the little dots are moving, you're waiting for the response. So I'm like sitting there like, what the fuck is he going to say? Is he going to say, this has been nice? I'm not serious, you know. But he said, I am very serious about this being a relationship.

I would love for you to come and visit me. How long had you been talking at that time before you were just like, hey, I want to do this? Like, he never said. Three months. That's a good amount of time. And, you know, we, I mean, I knew that we were, I guess I knew that we were exclusive at that point. Like somehow that had come up. But I didn't know, because I was like, it's so long distance.

He's all the way in Florida. Yeah. And to be fair. I wasn't, I was like, okay, where, where is this going to go? So it really was about three months in. And I was super busy. It was early stages of my business. Yeah.

So I also wasn't like, but yeah, three months in. And then I came down. I have to say though, too, like, I think the reason that I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is because you had a pat, you guys knew each other. You had, granted, obviously, like, you didn't, you know, 10 years. Like you said, you grew. Yes. But you didn't just meet him on a dating app. And then all of a sudden you're like creating all these fantasies.

of someone. It's like, it sounds like, no, I know him. I know whom as a human. We spent time together. Time elapsed. We still kept in contact. And then now it's, I'm a different version of myself. I'm ready to show up differently. Yes. And we both had, you know what's so fascinating. We both became different versions of ourselves. And I know for a fact, we could not have done it if we had stayed together. There's no way we could have grown in the ways that we needed to grow. And it's just, it's amazing. We did the growth we needed to as separate. And then I went and I had a hotel as a reserve, like a backup option. Absolutely.

But as soon as I got there, I could tell that he was just so ready, so emotionally available, treat me like a princess, respected all my boundaries, made me a little workstation. He was like, I know you're so busy. And here's a little office desk for you. And I mean, he's just, he is the most loving, giving, generous, considerate, kind human I've ever met in my life. And he, yeah, he's really restored so much of my heart that I didn't know needed to be healed. Yeah.

Has healed in, in relationship with him. 100%. Yeah. Somebody had asked like, do you heal in a relationship or something? It's like, you're going to heal more in a relationship than you ever imagined possible. But what I love, your story is very, my mama, all my life has said this. It's not love. It's proximity and timing.

And I'd always be like, I don't know what this woman's talking about. And even before Sex and the City had the Yellow Cab Theory, no, no, no. It's that when a man is ready and you enter their life, if you're there at the right time, you're the one that's going to get him. And it's not like a crapshoot. This isn't like a game. I'm not meaning like literally. And people seem to misunderstand.

They're like, what? So you and I just have to be there? It's like, no. My point being is Ryan and I, same thing. When Ryan and I met, I had just lost Clem and he had just lost his sister. And by losing really important aspects of our lives, he lost a human and lost a name. an animal doesn't matter right it's like that's your that's that's what what hurt you and that's where it got you we have both said had we not meant when we did if we met a year prior I would

have been way too anxious for him and I would have totally pushed him away his avoidance he would have gone way inwards because we needed that space to grow as people and the biggest thing is like a lot of people ask like oh well should I wait for someone and it's like that's assuming that you're growing in the same way that if you're going to wait for someone like you and your partner wrong person right time right and it's like no no no no what made him right is that he came in your life at the right time. Yes. It's not that oh when you met him in college you were like right person wrong time. See you in 10. No. It's hey this isn't working for us now. And if it's meant it will come back. And if not, I release control to the outcome here.

Because at the end of the day, proximity and timing matters more than love. I can love you all goddamn day. I could think you're the best fucking person in the world. But that does not mean that I have the bandwidth to show up for you in the ways that I might need versus in three, four, five years or even a year doesn't really matter to be able to show up differently so that I can start to receive that because you said that beautifully. I was a different version that I could receive. And I'd love for us to talk a little bit more about the difference that like a secure love, like what that actually feels like when you're so used to toxic and highs and lows and inconsistencies. How did you acclimate? Because I'll share mine after. How did you acclimate to somebody more secure that was a different

kind of love? Absolutely. Well, you know this that when we're in a toxic relationship, It's all about that intermittent reinforcement, which is so addictive, the same as it is with gambling. Yep. Of you're getting these high highs and these low lows, right? So our brain starts to associate, oh, that's how I'm supposed to feel in love when in reality it's not. No. It's so toxic. It's so bad for your nervous system.

It's not sustainable at all. So, yeah, doing the healing work and then being in a secure relationship that was stable, I had moments where I wanted to sabotage it. Oh, yeah. But I had done enough work to catch the moments. I'll tell you the story. We were driving from Montana to Florida with my two dogs and a U-Haul. Fun.

Okay. And this is a man that drove from Florida to Montana to my family's house, packed, help me packed all my stuff into the U-Haul. He was so kind and patient during the whole process. And I think my nervous system was like, oh, my gosh, this is so. nice. This is so much investment. I'm so not used to this. And then we're driving. We're in like South Dakota. And I had this anxious attachment spiral. Out of nowhere, I became convinced he was cheating on me. No evidence. Been there. Just like, okay, this is too good to be true. Too good to be true.

So what did I do? I went through his phone. And we're... I found nothing. I'm assuming. Yeah. I found nothing. Except probably like him boasting about you and you're like, damn. I'm went through his phone and it was in a hotel room in South Dakota and I could have not told him, but I knew I needed to tell him. That's what securely attached me would do. So I remember I went to him and I told him what had happened. He was obviously very understanding and we repaired it in that moment. But I just think back to my my anxiously attached self would have for sure found ways to sabotage that. Oh, 100%. 100%. Like I, I, like I, would have kept trying to find things. I would have, or I would have started a new relationship

somewhere because I was so good at doing that. Yeah, yeah. Of like, oh, if the love is available to me, let me find a way to mess it up. Yeah. So it really is getting your nervous system accustomed to, oh, I don't have to work for this. Like love, love is available to me. This person is curious about me. They care about me. They're emotionally attuned to me. And I can learn how to accept that. and also learn how to show up and give it. 100%. It's the weirdest feeling. It is.

It's a weird feeling when you're so used to, like my friend was sharing Nicole about the brain of like, she was like dopamine happens in unpredictability. That's why it's so sexy. Are they going to call me? Are they not what's happening? Right? That limbo. And I was even watching, I was watching 90 Day Fiance.

Do you watch that show? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. 100%. This is the tropical one. No, no, no. The other way around. I watch like every version.

So this is the new season of the other way or the tropical one. I can't remember one of them. And there's the Italian guy and the girl from the States. I don't remember where she's from. And when they met, he's Italian who he says, trisomes. I love my trisomes and my three sums. And when he met, he was very clear with her of like, three sums are part of my life.

I want to maintain that. And she said, okay. Cool, right. Hey, then you guys agree, right? Like, there's someone for everybody. Like, three sums might not be my thing, but there are plenty of, of people that like will and so of course now you start to see and it's like it's painful kind of to

watch this because you see that he is very consistent he keeps saying like I want to have a threesome like let's do it like he and she keeps being like I don't want to do that I don't feel comfortable why won't you change for me and it's like I'm just kind of watching this dynamic being like wait I'm sorry why should he have to change for you though you entered in a contract where you said this was okay just that's okay you have every right to say that doesn't work for you anymore but then that's a conversation of, then should we still be together? Because if that's a priority to him and not to you, that's cool. Like, then that's when I'd be like, hey, I think we've outgrown each other. Like, this isn't, we're not on the same page. And the reason I bring this up is because then they had this

scene where they're at the beach. And his friend is even saying, like, you know, what's going on with the trisomes? I see, keep saying trisoms because the Italian accent. That's how he says it. And every time Ryan hears it, he'll run back and be like, the tracems. But his friend even said, he was like, what's going on? And she was like, I don't want to do them. And he does. And even the friend, he was like, they have a really big. He's like, he's like, they are sexually compatible. And he was like, they have a lot of chemistry. And they all they want.

And then they interviewed the guy after. And he was like, yeah, you know, I like this dynamic because it's exciting and it's different. And he's like, I don't want something boring. And he was like, ugh, I know what it is. Pretty much alluding to like healthy. He was like, I want a relationship that has that passion and that fire. I want that emotion and that feeling.

If it were too, if it were boring, I wouldn't want it anymore. And that kind of reminded me of. like, I don't know if this person's going to stay. Do they like me? That was my baseline. I was used to asking those questions. So that when I met somebody that, and that's why I will always say, I'm like, oh, yeah, you think you're good when you're single.

Wait until you meet somebody and now you have to receive it because I did the same thing. I would find issues where my mom would even say, and she's like, are you trying to break up with him? Or like, is this actually something that bothers you? Or you're just trying to find it out? Because I was the queen of finding an out. And the worst part was like, Ryan and I've had like somebody issues as humans, right? Like you're two people trying to fucking navigate the planet.

And we had something like a couple of weeks ago and he like stepped up to the plate and he fucking like worked through it and went to his therapist and we had a lot of talks. And I remember after my mom's like, are you happy? And I was like, this is weird for me. I'm not used to having that dynamic where you expressed as somebody something that bothers you. And then they internalize that. They take it. Then they make action. And now you have a better relationship.

And I wanted so badly to be like, no, it's not good enough and you're not doing enough. And I had to stop. And I was like, no, this is more than enough actually. this for me was okay Sabrina you didn't actually believe that somebody could love you to the point where they would want to actually step up for you because I am so used to my dad says he loves me but he hurts me my my caregivers keep telling me they love me but they're not stepping up for me they're not changing they're not evolving they're not growing so when I met in a partner that was I was like I'm sorry I don't know what to do with this yes I can relate 100% it is wild to me and it's wild I think when we really start to understand what healing actually means. To me, above all, when you're trying to heal your anxious attachment style, to me what that means is like, you're trying to put space, right? Like you're learning patience and space and compassion.

And you're taking the black and the white and creating shades of gray. And you're creating a nuance and you're understanding that people operate differently. And that, to me, has helped me in life because then I don't freak out about the shit anymore. You know, like, I went this morning to get an IV and they couldn't find my vein for an hour and a half. And they kept saying, thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I was like, I'm good, man. I'm just, don't worry about it.

because I learned to, I used to scream and get mad. I have to go. What the fuck is this? Like, why are you wasting my time? Like, what? You can't even get this right. And instead, I was like, you know what? They're human.

Yeah, I was like, I said, listen, they're human. I was like, I can't control. I said, I also have to take accountability. It's like, my fucking veins out of the problem, right? I was like, you tried seven different needles in four different parts of my arm. Like, maybe it's a me thing. And it just allowed me to have softness. Yes.

You know what I mean? Like, to me, the feminine and masculine to me is just safety. Safety, 100%. I was talking about that the other day. It's just safety. We see all this. Oh, man, there's so much on Instagram that I've just wanted. Yeah, it's not.

Can you tell me, actually, share with me. What's your least favorite thing that you see on Instagram? Or like in the interwebs of like the dating shit. So it would be the like how to get the guy, like what to text them. Like the whole like text them this, you know, seven word sentence to make them want you. Like that type of like surface bullshit really bothers me. That clickbait. Because to me, all that does is I'm like, you're just exacerbating the anxiety, right?

Like you're, someone asked me the other day, what do you think of the book, why men love bitches? And I was like, that, I read it, I read it like seven years ago and was like, this is amazing. And then I read it a couple of years ago. And I was like, this is shit. It's terrible. Because what it is, it's just teaching you how to be a good girl. Nice girls do this, but bitches do this. And I'm like, I don't want to.

No. I don't want to be that. No, I always tell people, if you want to play games, in your dating life, you're going to play games in your relationship. You're building relationship culture from day one. So you need to show up as an open, honest, direct, securely attached person as much as you can. Because that's the kind of relationship you want to build. And like, it's okay to take up space as that. Like we did get another few questions that we got. And I'm paraphrasing the questions because so many of them were kind of in the same vein of like, I don't understand.

Like, do I just tell them what I want in the beginning? And it's like, yeah. That's actually exactly yeah, that goes. That is what you do. Set the precedence of like, and that's why all the time, and I'm sure you can relate to this. When people ask me like, how did you find someone that accepts you for who you are and loves you this much? I'm like, I had to show up like that and be okay with myself. Yes. Because if I was uncomfortable with myself, why would then you be comfortable around me? Yes, we have to have that kind of relationship with ourselves. I was thinking about my relationship with my partner and how I had self-abandoned in so many of my past relationships. I'm sure you know. Oh, yeah. And even

to the point of like taking on other people's hobbies. My partner loves to fly fish. Okay. And that's not something I'm interested in. Like you're not going to see me in a boat. I'm not going to buy a fly fishing rod. Okay. And that's his thing that he gets to go do.

And I have my things that I get to do. And we're in a healthy, secure relationship. Same when I moved from Florida to Montana. For the first time ever, I was in such a healthy relationship that I love. loved him so much that if if he had wanted to stay there, I would have gotten it and I would have loved him and been okay with it. But in the past, I either would have said, oh, I love living in Florida. I'll stay here with you. Or I would have said, you either come to Montana or we're done. And if you don't come to Montana, then you don't love me. But we had this beautiful conversation,

really hard conversation where I realized, hey, I want to live in Montana. I know that that wasn't your decision. If you want to come with me, you can, but you also don't have to because I love you enough that I want you to be happy and you pick what works for you. You both get to choose. Yeah. I think that's like one of the best things about securely attached healthy relationships is you realize, oh, we have these two identities and we want to support each other to grow as individuals. And you were talking about dopamine. And I think it's awesome when you can say, oh, what if I get my adrenaline and my, my, you know, big experiences of excitement and thrill, whatever, what if I get that somewhere else than my relationship?

Like, what if I go travel? I'm going to go to Rome instead of having drama in my relationship. So I think you can just start to realize, oh, the relationship gets to be a secure base. And then both of us just get to grow and be our highest and best selves within the relationship. 100% for me my secure relationship is like I can say no I can express myself I've learned like we had an issue the last week with like a family thing and I just was straightforward and I was like hey here's what's bothering me I need to share this with you and we did and it was hard and he cried and I cried and we and I remember like at the end of it I stopped him and I said the reason I'm saying this to you is because I love you and I want to work on our relationship and I'm here and I'm not going to go anywhere but I'm also very cognizant and I've been honest with him I'm like I'm not going to say things like I'm never going to leave you because that's not a reality. because I'm a human with agency and we might outgrow each other, right? Here's a big tip. If you really want to be in a secure relationship, yes, receive all the love and do all that

and everything. But one thing I will suggest to everybody is like also get okay with the fact that it might not last forever. That's what makes it secure is that you're growing and you're evolved. But then the secure part of it is also knowing that if it runs its course, this was beautiful and I appreciate it. Yeah. Because I know for me, before Clem passed away, I used to joke and be like, I'm going to

mummify him. Like, he's going to be with me forever. And people say stuff and I'd snap and I'd be like, no, he's literally going to be fucking with me forever. And it was like, I couldn't fathom life without my dog. Now, he's a dog. Of course he was going to die, right? Like he, that's, that's the, and so when he died, I completely lost myself. Yeah. And so even with Ryan, every time I always will reiterate, I'm like, I choose you and I choose to work on this, like you are choosing me and you're choosing to work on this. When one or both of us decides that we are no longer making that choice, it was great. I love you.

This was fun. Because to me, it's not, oh, God, well, I can't be with him. It's like, that's going to heighten your anxiety because then you're always scared of what's to come versus I know who I am. I'm a fucking batty. And if this ends, no worries, I'll find someone else. And if it doesn't, yay, I'm here to work on this relationship. It just, it allows you to just be like, what you got, universe? Like, come my way because you leave open, like, space for magic to happen. It's so true. And it's so beautiful when I always think about this is you have an open palm. So so many of us are like squeezing tightly to the relationship. But the open palm allows us to really enjoy. the relationship, relax into it.

Is that a gripping so tightly, you're like squeezing it to death. Exactly. And like being skits like and then being scared that if you're not performing, it's like when you hold on so tight, you're actually not allowing yourself to genuinely connect with somebody because you're just, I'm only okay if I have you. Yeah. And let me tell my anxious babes out there. If you don't think that people can pick up on that energy, you are gravely fucking mistaken.

Because I have seen my clients will send me like text conversations and I'm like, if I received this message that you sent, I'd be running the other way. Because all I see here, well, you know, you said you were going to call me at nine and you didn't even got blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you only text me at 9.30 and it's like, yo, what you're telling this person is like, I'm only okay if I have you. And if you don't do, and it's like, hey, people are allowed to be human. I said I was going to call you at 9.

I called you at 930. Right? Like, yeah, not the end of the world. So sorry, I got out of this thing later. It was a few minutes behind. I couldn't get to my phone. But when it's such a like hyperfixation of like, I don't understand what's going on. The vibe is different and all that.

I've had one date with you. I don't know who you are. I don't know what fucking vibe you're picking up on. It sounds like you might be also imagining that something is off. I'm not going to say that to somebody. I'm just saying that between the two of us. I used to. That's why I would create scenarios.

I would create the, he hasn't heard from him. Well, no, you know what? I realized he did act a little different the last time I saw. And I was like, no, he wasn't. You know, that was my hypervigilance. Can we just, let's like, when I think about all of the energy that I wasted, analyzing relationships, I think I could have had a whole other PhD in something. 100%. You could have written 25 more books. That's how I'm like, I got stories for days because I've done it. And I think you and I can both attest to the fact that that does not lead you to the healthy and secure relationship. No, no, no, no. And I always tell people that a healthy relationship is just a multiplier. It's just a multiplier of the love that you have for yourself. So it can't feel a void. If you don't love yourself, if you don't have the high self-worth, a relationship's not going to come in and magically make you feel awesome about yourself.

No. But if you do have self-love and you have high self-worth, a relationship can come in and it can add to it. Yeah. But it's never going to fill a void. It's in addition to not instead of. I'm almost I said that. And like I'll say this, if you're in the dating experience and you're starting off with like wild high anxiety and you can't let me tell you just because you get into a relationship, that doesn't go away. No.

And I see this all the time where it's like there's crazy anxiety, crazy anxiety for like one, two, three months. And it's like, what do you think is going to change that all of a sudden you're in the relationship? I'm like, but then you're going to worry, am I going to lose them? Are they going to want someone else? And I was like, it's always going to multiply because it was never about them. So how could they be the ones that all of a sudden heal it? It's so true. And I think as a relationship gets further along, you have these moments of moving in together.

Exactly. Getting engaged, walking down the aisle. This is deeper, deeper investment. If you haven't healed your anxious attachment, it's going to rear its ugly head during those times of deeper emotional investment. So that's why it's so good to deal with it as early as you can. 100%. Because it may come up, but I think we want to get to a place where it's like baby waves instead

of the tsunamis. Exactly. That window of tolerance. Yes. Where we can actually deal with it well and we can respond to it instead of react. So the earlier on, I mean, obviously before a relationship is a great time to work on it if you're single, work on it now. But just work on it as early as you can.

100% relationship. I know one of my clients asked me. And I said, okay, let me ask you right now. I was like, you're in the old stage. As I said, you guys move in and you don't have to worry about this texting. What's your problem? And she like, stop me. And I was like, exactly.

I was like, stop making shit bigger than it needs to fucking be. What's the issue? If you, okay, omit the fact that, oh, well, I haven't heard from him every day. Okay. Jump up six months, right? Where now you're in a relationship with this person. So maybe you live with this person. I'm like, okay, when you live with them, no shit, you're not going to text them every day.

You fucking wake up and see them. you're still going to have what is this about right what is it really about what's it really about if he were texting you because then i got like when somebody wrote into me today the guy I'm dating, he only texts me five times a day. And I'm like, oh my, my God, that would drive me nuts. Girl, I'm like, what do you mean only text me five times a day? I'm like, that is more than me and my own fucking partner text each other on like an on a week. Yeah.

And it's like, that's where we have to look and be like, hey, I think in that point, this is that anxiety of fear of I'm going to lose it, what's happening, what's that because the funny part was he only texts me five times, but then the rest of her email was like all these other terrible things he's doing. And I'm like, wait, wait, so you're focusing on the texting. he only texts her five times a day. And I'm like, that's a lot considering that this person has all this other shitty behavior. He's unavailable.

He told her he didn't want a relationship. And I was like, but you're focusing on the fact that he only texts you five times a day. So my anxious babes, let's release control on the texting and start focusing on other aspects of the relationship slash what the fuck that texting actually means to you. I think so. And obviously, I know you know this, that there are times where we have to talk about the communication. I call this. We have to communicate about communication.

If somebody is going dark on you for three days at a time or you're trying to make plans and they cancel the plans right before, obviously there's times where you have to have a conversation and it's really helpful to be in an emotionally regulated place, show up as securely attached as possible and have a conversation about, okay, what are your needs to try to build secure attachment? but I think what happens, which you and I know, is people are in their anxiously attached place. Oh, yeah. And then they have all these needs that are beyond what a healthy person's capacity is to give over a long period of time. Because I also think about sustainability.

100%. Because you can have those like even two month, three month, like, oh, fairy tale relationship, whatever. Is it sustainable? Is somebody texting you five times a day sustainable? It's not. Mama always said when they started 100, where do you want them to go? And she's like, if it's giving, if it's too sweet, it's going to give me a too fake. And it's the same.

I'm like, when somebody, you're texting more, you know, but then like after a month their vibe change, it's like, girl, it's not, this is not realistic. Maybe for you because you have high anxiety, it's realistic, but that's not realistic for most people to maintain that. And it's so, God, Morgan, you and I could talk about this for another fucking year and a half. We'll be here like five hours. But, I mean, thank you for coming on and being vulnerable and sharing your wisdom. we see a book back here. Can you plow a little bit? Where can people find you and where can people learn?

So love magnet, get off the dating roller coaster and attract the love you deserve. It's not the lesbian love story on Amazon named Love Magnet, although I'm sure that book is great. But this book is actually experiential. So it's like a workbook when you go through it. Yeah, you can get it on Amazon. And my podcast, Let's Get Vulnerable, so many episodes about attachment styles and attachment. It's an attachment theory. So if that's your thing, check it out.

But yeah, Sabrina, I mean, we could talk for hours. This has been so much fun. Thanks for coming, man. And I check out the podcast because I was on yours. Yes. Oh, my gosh. People loved our episodes. So go listen to it.

It's so good. Dude, thank you again so much for being on. Thank you for having me.