The Sabrina Zohar Show - 86: Boundaries vs. Jealousy: Navigating Trust and Insecurity With Therapy Jeff

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Jeff Gunther, known on social media as Therapy Jeff, joins Sabrina to discuss themes of jealousy in dating relationships, drawing from insights in his new book on how to show up authentically in relationships. They explore retroactive jealousy—obsessing over a partner's past relationships—and share personal experiences, highlighting that such jealousy often stems from personal insecurities and lack of self-worth. Jeff advises imagining trust in your partner and addressing insecurities openly rather than projecting them. They discuss the importance of distinguishing between boundaries and jealousy, noting that boundaries should come from a healthy place. Communication and self-compassion are key to managing jealousy. Jeff explains that jealousy is not inherently unhealthy but can be justified if a partner's actions are inappropriate. Lastly, they address the misconception that a lack of jealousy indicates disinterest, emphasizing the importance of direct communication and reassurance. Get Jeff's book: Big Dating Energy Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You know, guys, that's the second time I've said this now. It's growing on me, but it's still a little weird. I'm not going to lie to you guys. And here we are on the other side. We're now the Sabrina Zohar show. You guys know all about it.

And I just want to say thank you. I just want to thank you guys so fucking much for the support, the love, the showing up, right? Like, this is one of the scariest things I've had to go through in a minute because I put everything in this baby. And to me, it was do the work was who I was. And now I had to realize, like, no, no, no, no, putting all your eggs in one basket is where it's dangerous, right? And that's where I always want to continue to show you guys, like doing the work doesn't stop. Just because you think that you're in a place in life that you could relax, sometimes the universe or God or whatever you believe in has other plans for you. So guys, thank you again so much for everything.

Thank you for sharing. Thank you for everyone who is reviewing the show. And you know what? Whether it's a positive review or a negative review, I thank you for that. And all I ask is that we use kind language, that if you, if there's something that you don't like, that's okay. You have every right and prerogative to say what it is that you want to say. But let's do that with respect to each other. And if you love this show and you think it's worth five stars, please, please, please, rate it on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, YouTube, wherever you're listening, leave a review. That's how I grow the show. That's the only way the algorithm knows that people like it is when they leave reviews. So, please, please. So guys, today we have a very special guest. Therapy Jeff is back for a part two.

He was here last summer. And now his new book is out. And we're talking about what is having big dating energy and talking about jealousy and relationships, retroactive jealousy, and how you can show up more authentically in your dating and relationship experiences. So I really hope you guys love the episode. I hope you guys get his book. It's fantastic. And guys, as always, thank you for everything. Please don't forget if you need more support. The course is out. It's Raren. There's a special course coming out in a couple of days for you guys. Our breakup course with Britt Frank is on its way. Shish, this is the first time you guys have heard about it. And otherwise, the foundation course is out. You guys get five hours of teachings. You get three meditations you can come back to. You have

lifetime access for the course. You have a community. You've got journal prompts. And you've got things that will actually help to start to challenge your thoughts and really understand like what are my dating patterns, what are my limiting beliefs, what's happening with my inner child, all that stuff. So it's all there if you guys need it. And the last message is if you guys want to get ad free listening, it is $7 a month or $70 a year. And you get two bonus episodes, one including and Ask Me Anything with Tech Guy, and one being a random, the implementation series, or just a random episode. episode with me that you guys get to choose. So everything that's the way to support the show. And if not, that's okay. You can listen to it for free. We just ask to support our sponsors if you like the messaging.

That way we can keep bringing you the show week after week. And that way I can show up sustainably as well for you guys. So thank you guys again for every fucking thing. Thank you for the support, the love, the messages, the reposts. If you don't think I see it, I see it. I just sometimes don't have the bandwidth to respond. But I am so grateful for all of you. And thank you again so much for helping the Sabrina Zohar show take its flight. So guys, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hello, Jeff. Welcome back to Do the Work podcast. I'm so excited to have you. I'm excited to be here. It's good to see you again. Likewise. Well, we have a big congratulations in order. We have somebody whose book just came out by the time this episode is launched. Can you

please share, first of all, a little bit more about you, but also BDE, share with me a little bit more about this big dating energy that I'm here for. Yeah. So I am Jeff Gunther. You might know me as Therapy Jeff from TikTok and Instagram. I show up on your phone all the time. And I think I can get like after a while I'm a little annoying. I annoy myself sometimes.

But I have such valuable information. Don't unfollow me. I will save your relationship. I just wrote a book and it just came out. It's called Big Dating Energy. And it's about how to show up in relationships as your authentic self. It was really fun to write. The challenge was I wanted to write like a relationship self-help book that was actually like very readable and funny and interesting.

I remember when I was like, there was this whole process of like, right, like becoming therapy Jeff sort of blowing up on the internet. And then maybe you experience the same sort of thing where there's just like all these like literary agents that then start reaching out to you. And they're like, you should write a book. You should write a book. And I'm like, me, little old me, I should write. So at first I was just like, no fucking way. That sounds miserable. I don't think I can write a book.

I hated like writing essays and papers in schools. So it felt like the same sort of thing. But eventually they wear you down a little bit. And you start imagining what it would be like to write a book. And I started on this book like two years ago. So it's been like you have to like write a book proposal. then you have to shop it around, then you, like, interview publishers, then you pick one, and you have to, like, work with the editor, and then you actually start writing the book,

and that can take, you know, that took, like, five or six months for me. I actually wrote the book. One of the ways I, like, got over the, like, oh, my God, this is going to be so scary, is I tapped my ex-wife, who I was, like, we were married for eight years. We were also writing partners during the, like, time that we were married. So I was like, Kate, I've, like, you're the book writer. Can you help me, like, put this together? And she's like, let's fucking do it. So I took each chapter and I wrote the chapter and I'd send it to Kate and she would just sort of like make it more booklike.

And she actually has like a voice in the book whenever I like, whenever she wants to put me in place, she sort of like kindly comes in. She's like he's acting like fucking bonkers. Yes. So there's like this fun dynamic between me and Kate. And then there's like a bunch of edits that have to go, that have to happen. And then yada, yada, yada. The book comes out. So this has been like a two-year process. I'm really excited that it's available for everybody. And it kind of takes people through the stages of dating. So first we talk about like why you have the relationship issues that you have. I like to blame your parents. I also like to blame. blame society and culture and reality TV and Hollywood. Like, we can blame everybody. Like, it's a really fun first couple chapters where it's everybody else's fault. And then I slowly start turning into like, but maybe you should do something about it, right? Maybe you should fucking get better.

And then we go into, like, all the different stages of dating, like getting out there, setting up your profile or meeting in real life, having the first date, honeymoon period, how to like have a good, like, long-term relationship, but that's what you're looking for. Sex stuff, how to do well in conflict, how to break up in an ethical way, how to take a break, how to get back out there, how to just be single for a while. So it sort of like goes over the entire lifespan of a relationship. And it turned out that like it was really difficult to contain everything into like one single chapter for each topic. Each chapter could have been its own book. So I'm really excited for y'all to read it. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm waiting for my copy. I just got an email of like your copies on its way. I was like, yeah. Because I trust me, I know that I'm in the process now of writing a

book as well. That's same. And it's wild when you really start to break it down that you're like, oh, wow, it's kind of a journey for us as well to like go through this all over again and really map it out. So I'm excited to read BDE and to get some big. dating energy because we all know I love that. But I really, the reason I'm also like so excited to have you on today is outside of just like just having so much fun every time we get to talk and loving your knowledge is because I think something that I wanted to like, because I also know that you're going to give it to a straight just like I am.

And so that's the fun here. It's not just like super clinical of up here is what a therapist would say. It's like, no, no, no, we're also human. So can we also like bring that part in? Because part of to me having like a really beautiful day. energy is also confidence and really, you know, of course, like when you're entering this, you might not walk in being the most confident person in the world. But something I really wanted to talk about specifically with you today about like how do we embody this energy is also like

working through jealousy and insecurity because I, I don't know that you, I know that you and I are seeing the same internet. Well, different sides of it. Every person is. But nonetheless, it's TikTok. And I see so many things of like, it's healthy to be jealous of your partner. And then I'm I'm like, huh, that can't. That doesn't sit right with me or that retroactive jealousy is a thing. And so I kind of wanted to like even just start off with understanding. Do you know what this retroactive jealousy thing actually is? Because I'm confused. I heard this terminology.

To me, I'm like, so wait, you're jealous about your partner's past, but you're jealous later. I'm like, can somebody, what is it? There's a lot of, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I see a lot of more like jealousy, insecurity talk on TikTok compared to Instagram where it's not as much that. So maybe it's also kind of like a younger generation thing. I'm not beating up on the younger generation, but I think that there's also like as you move through relationships and become older, you likely will feel less jealous or less insecure. That's not a promise, but that's kind of typically what happens.

However, the retroactive jealousy, yeah, that is really interesting. It's the type of jealousy where if you're in a relationship and either you think about your partner in other relationships in the past or having sex with other people in the past or they talk about their exes in some sort of way mentioning them or maybe they have a friendship with them, I don't know. There's some sort of like jealousy that you feel because of actions that they've done in the past and it's coming up for you in the current moment. And it's really fucked. It's a really like, if you're the one experiencing retroactive jealousy, usually, and this is understandable, but usually you're just like, I hate that I feel this way. Like this like doesn't make fucking sense, right? Like, their sort of like wise mind might be able to say like, it makes sense that you've had relationships in the past. And it's good that you've had relationships in the past so that you can show up to this relationship more educated or with more growth or something.

But at the same time, it's usually sort of like almost like an obsessive thing. They can't stop ruminating about you having some sort of like physical affection or relationship with someone in the past. Have you ever felt this way? Have you ever experienced retroactive jealousy? It's so funny. That was going to be my question. I was like, did you ever seem to? I would say truthfully, I think there's a, I think it depends on one, the time of my life.

Like, usually when I felt retroactive jealousy was because, like, even thinking about, like, one person that comes to mind, like, one specific situation. And it was because his ex was this, like, well-to-do woman. Like, she was very well-known. She was, like, just, you see her photo and you're like, fuck, that, that's your ex. Like, oh, let me guess. She was super cool and really understanding and, like, super secure. Of course she was.

She was, like, all those things. And for me, where that jealousy came out was that I never thought that I was going to be as good is that? Like, I didn't think that I, you know, that was my own insecurity of like, oh, she has something I don't, right? Like, that's how when I feel jealous, I can feel envious. I can feel inspired. Like, I don't know about you, but for me personally, like, if I see somebody in our industry that's bigger, that's killing it, I don't usually feel jealous of them of like, oh, I can't do that? I'm usually just like, dang, okay, can I learn from this? Like, what can I learn from this person? Or how can I, you know, implement this in my own life? But I think when

it comes to, like, dating, I've talked to personally with like, now Ryan, he'll tell me about his ex all the time and I'm like, okay, it doesn't do anything to me because I know like where I'm at in my journey and where they were in their life. But usually it came from the other perception of the other person being like, quote unquote, better than me, having more than I do. What about you? Have you ever had like either or maybe a client or like a hit like fucking cringe situation of someone being jealous of you or vice versa? Spill the tea, Jeff. I, every, I mean, I think every now and then I've experienced retroactive jealous. or even in my current relationship, I know that my girlfriend has been in relationships with guys that were like, she used to be like such a crossfit, babe.

And so she was like in relationship with these guys who were fucking stacked. They were huge. They were like so buff. And their like life was crossfit. And I am not like huge and so buff. I'm like a skinny emo kid. right, which I think is like its own sexiness. And I know that my body, like, either it can't be that huge and buff or I don't want to work so hard that it would be.

Like, that's not interesting to me. So because of that, every now and then something can creep in where it's just like, oh, I feel insecure. Maybe she wants some, like, huge, big buff guy. And then I start to, like, focus on the last guy that she was with who was really big and huge and bust. So it's not even so much. It's like what you're talking about, where it's not like so much about the X that you're thinking about. It's about your own insecurities and feeling secure in the relationship. And the problem is that we usually focus on the X and talk about that.

And that's not going to fucking fix it. You have to like focus, right? You have to focus on your own insecurities or self-worth or confidence. And then like talk about how you can create more of that in your relationship with your partner if you want. But it's, yeah. So usually we're like really focusing on the wrong thing. I have dated a handful of people of women who have like who who do have retroactive jealousy. The problem is that like I usually try to bring it back to like let's just talk about the here and now and you feeling insecure.

And if they don't do that, then I quickly have like what we in the biz call compassion fatigue. But I think what like normal people are just like shut the fuck up. Like, I can't fucking take this. I can't have the same goddamn conversation over and over again about my ex that has nothing to do with us and isn't actually moving the needle into like something more secure. And so that's usually the problem I see like if a couple comes in and there's retroactive jealousy. Usually the like the person who's suffering from retroactive jealousy can't stop talking about it. And the person who's like dealing with like the ramifications of being with a partner like that is so fucking burnt out on it. And it's hard.

First of all, can we just really quick talk about the fact that you skated over the name, the title, Girlfriend? did not know about this. Congratulations. I love love. So like, yay. Hi, girlfriend. But I told, no, and as you mentioned that, 100%. Like, I felt like that. And it's interesting. I never was jealous of the fact that Ryan dated women that didn't look like me. And I'm not to saying, oh, I'm a little different. It's like, no, no, no, no. I'm very different. And people were so offended when we first started dating where I kept saying he's not my type. And like, as if I was rude to say that, and I was like, neither one of us are. But I totally understand more so the insecurity of, well, if that's your type, are you going to not like me?

Like, if you're always dating CrossFit guys or like Ryan, it's like, you date women that do not look like me. Are you going to then get tired of me? And eventually, at least for me on my journey, I had to eventually let it go because it's like, after a while somebody doing that to me, I feel like, oh, well, if I don't have tattoos, you're going to like me. And it's like, hey, if you think that I'm that shallow, that that's the only reason I'm going to break it off with you, then maybe you actually don't know me as well as you might think

you do. So I can totally understand and how. have compassion for both sides, but I think it's kind of the same as like having somebody that's super anxious. Like, while my heart can go out to you and I'm like, oh, you poor thing, like I get it, you have anxiety after a while or after a little bit, you're like, whoa, hey, this is now becoming my issue. Now I have to kind of find a way to be okay with this when it's like, actually on the contrary, it's like the person with the retroactive jealousy, which was going to be my question, is like, what the fuck do you do? Like, if you find yourself, like when you have clients that come in,

especially as a couple, what is a suggestion or where do you even begin when you have somebody that's coming in that has these feelings that they don't even know where they're coming from? And then the other partner is like, what do I do with this? Yeah, it's funny. There's like, there's different things that I do. There's usually, I usually do something, there's something I do first, which rarely ever works. I don't know why I keep on doing it. But the thing is that like if it does work, it's golden. But maybe it only works five percent of the time. I usually say something like, you know, okay, so you're feeling insecure, you're feeling anxious, retroactive jealousy, whatever it is.

I'll say something like, what would it be like if you just fucking trusted your partner? What would it be like if you stopped thinking about their exes? And sometimes when I phrase it like that, they can fantasize about what it would be like. It would be so liberating and be so freeing. I would like really step into this relationship and feel really excited about it, whatever. And every now and then there's just sort of like this aha moment of like, what would it be like? Oh, it'd be like that. And then they can just like let it go.

So sometimes I just like literally say like stop fucking thinking about it. Again, that rarely ever works because they really want to stop thinking about it. Right. And their partners probably said like, can you kindly shut the fuck up about this? Like I can't take this anymore. So see if you can just decide to stop. Because sometimes you are powerful enough. to be like, I'm going to stop, which means I'm going to trust this relationship.

And sometimes the retroactive jealousy is something that you're creating in your mind that is keeping you from actually connecting with your person. Right. So it's actually just sort of some bullshit excuse. And again, you can make the decision or we can talk about like, why are you having hard time stepping into this relationship? Why are you having a hard time feeling secure? What do you need to feel more secure?

And, you know, as a therapist, I'll probably talk about their family or ex-partners and all that shit and try to dig through it. A lot of times it's like there's like, it's not uncommon for someone that has retroactive jealousy to grow up with a sibling who's just like getting more attention or feels like they're getting more love from their parents. They can't, they never like, they were never as good enough as their sibling. And so they feel like they're not going to be as good enough for anybody. They're not going to be as good enough as their partner's exes sort of thing. So the not good enough stuff has probably permeated their consciousness in their childhood and they're just bringing it in. So at that point, I'll probably like do sort of like individual therapy in front of their partner where we're just talking about how heartbroken they were. growing up with a sibling that got all of the attention.

And so that's like healing for the individual that I'm talking to. But the partner who's just watching, a lot of times they create, like, that creates a lot of compassion. And all of a sudden, like, they're not annoyed anymore. They're just like, oh, babe, that sucks. Yeah. I like, hate that your mom or dad didn't do it. Or like your sibling.

Oh, yeah, your sister's the worst or something. So if we can create a lot of compassion in the therapy office, that can work. There's a, so there's, there's also two ways to go. And I'm interested in what you think. When there's ever like insecurity, jealousy or retroactive, like do you think there's no right or wrong answer here? I'm just like, want your opinion.

Although you might think there's a right or wrong answer. So do you think that if you're suffering from like a lot of insecurity, is that something that you should deal with on your own and not like sort of drag your partner? into it? Or is that something that, like, you should, like, be healing with your partner doing stuff together? I would say an amalgamation of both because I think, which I hope I surprised you on that. I would say that it's like to a certain extent, there's only so much I can project onto a partner. Like, if I feel, like, I get this every day of, like, you know, I feel insecure about my weight. And it's like, okay, well, if I constantly enter in going,

well, but you're going to like skinny women, it's like, but that, who said, like, your partner never said that. Like, that because. comes unfair to your partner. If you're like, that's my insecurity. Like, if I don't feel good about myself, I can't always, oh, you don't find me attractive. And it's like, but I never said that. I actually just said you looked beautiful in that dress. It's like, that's that where it's like, or here's an example, I, which like 17 people ask this question. So let's segue our way into it. Of the, my partner and I were walking and they looked, they checked another woman out, right? To me, it's like, okay, there's a difference between head on a swivel. I look and I just look right back.

Like, I'm a human. My eyes, are you kidding me? I have ADHD. My eyes are going everywhere anyways. Like, I'm always looking around. And yeah, when I saw, like, when Ryan and I go walking, I am into the tall tattooed, I'm the CrossFit guy. So, like, those are mine.

So when I see, like, a babe and a half run by us and he's a tall drink of water, even Ryan and I are both looking. And he'll even say, he's like, I saw you look. And it's like, there's nothing wrong. And it's the same. When I see him see, like, he loves petite, just chocolatey skin, beautiful. Like, some of these women that he used to date him, like, like you fucking asshole, these are fucking stunning, beautiful women,

that they're just not me, right? It's just a totally different look. When I see them run by and I'll see my partner look, I'm like, okay, I know he's attracted to that, but that doesn't, it doesn't have to be an either or. It doesn't mean that because he's attracted to that, he's no longer attracted to me. And so I think there's that balance between if I have a partner that when I say, you know, I'm feeling like, oh, God, I don't feel like myself recently. I feel like I've gained a few pounds.

Do I want a partner that's going to be like, yeah, you're looking a little jiggly. you might want to get back to the gym. It's like, ouch, like, that's going to probably make me feel pretty shitty. Or if you talk about another woman,

like, damn, her body is banging. Maybe you should try that. Things like that where it's like inappropriate or you're comparing me, I have an issue. But to me, if a man,

like, when I hear like, oh, well, the guy that I'm dating, he followed another girl in Instagram. And it's like, okay, outside of the binary world, right?

If we're talking biological man and women, it's like, okay, so if he's not allowed to talk to women, he can only talk to men. I don't know. That's some Andrew Tate shit. I don't know that I'd want a partner that only talks to one type of human being. It's like I want them to have a broad range.

So to me, that's why my answer is a little bit mixed because I think, yes, if you have an insecurity, it's okay. Like I'll tell my partner like, hey, can I just be honest with you? Like when you say things like that, they do trigger my insecurities because that is my Achilles heel. I already think that this is an issue of mine. Could you say this in a different way? Absolutely. Letting your fucking partner even know what your insecurities are. important and not in like a sad meek way, but in like a, hey, these are things I deal with

my myself versus I think it becomes an issue when you're just constantly projecting onto the other person. Like, I don't know about you, Jeff. I've had that where I've dated people where like, when I lived in New York, hello, it's New York. How often we're walking down the street. And I had a guy where it was like, a guy walked by me. And I simply looked and he was like, what, would you rather be out with him? I remember I just looked and I was like, oh my God, dude. Like, this is our first date. Like, no, I wouldn't rather be, now I would. But a minute ago, no, I was actually really happy because you're quite attractive. And it's almost then you start to realize you're like, oh, you don't, you want me to, it's all a thing.

But I'm curious about your thoughts, especially on what people are asking of like, is it appropriate for my partner to look at somebody walking down the street? Like, talk to me. I like your answer. And I think that there's a lot of overlap between our hands. answers. I also think the first thing that, like, you might want to do, it's funny because it's like, I think some people enter into relationships with very fixed opinions on, like, whether it is okay or not for you to look at somebody else, to scan somebody up and down, or whether it's okay or not to follow hot attractive people on Instagram and like their photos, right? So if you are,

if that is, if you are, if you're not going to change your belief about whether or not that shit is okay, and you are solid in that belief, then I'm not going to try to fuck with it, but I'm going to tell you, go find somebody else who also believes what you believe. Because if you're both on opposite ends of the spectrum and believe something different, this will probably tear you apart. So there's that. But then there's sort of like, is it okay? Like in just my opinion, do I think that it's okay?

Yeah, I think it's totally fucking fine. I think like what we're saying, it's more about, I think it's fine to follow hot people on Instagram if you want. I think it's fine to like look at people on the street if you want. And as long as you're not doing it in some sort of like seedy, like you're saying comparative, like I'm trying to make you feel insecure or jealous sort of way. But if you're both, if you're all feeling like incredibly secure in the relationship, then you can have fun being like, look at that, babe, they're super hot, right? And that can actually bring you together. And the security and the good feelings about that is like, it's fun to have that conversation.

So, you know, it's up to you, listener, to decide whether you think it's appropriate or not appropriate. Find somebody that also thinks the same thing you do. But if you're kind of on the fence about it, work on feeling more secure in your relationship. and see if you can have playful banter around it. It's funny because I talked to Dan Savage about this on my podcast about the Instagram thing. Yes. Where, yeah, so you're with a partner and they're liking all these hot models and you're feeling insecure about that.

And I'm usually like, if you feel insecure with your partner liking a bunch of hot babes on Instagram, then you should tell them, I'm feeling kind of insecure. I'm feeling a little funky about it. And then if you're the person that's liking all those things, maybe it's not so important to like all those things. Maybe you don't have to. But then Dan Savage brought up this thing where they're just like, well, some people go on Instagram and look at these pictures and it's a form of porn. So would you, Jeff, tell your partner to like what they should or should not look at when they're looking at porn? And I was like, oh, no, probably not.

So maybe you shouldn't tell somebody to not look at hot pictures or tell the boyfriend or something to unfollow. And then Dan Savage, like being Dan Savage, went the extra mile. And he was like, if your partner thinks that if your partner doesn't like you liking photos on Instagram, then you should create a fake Instagram, a Finsta, an anonymous Instagram that just follows hot people and don't tell your partner about it. Which is like, all right, you're going a little too far. You're like, maybe. You're like, wait, wait, four steps back. Can we just stay there before the Finsta thing?

You're like, no, no, no, no, don't listen to that. But, you know, he has hot takes, and so do you. We can appreciate a hot take, even if we don't agree with it. Totally. The problem is that it goes into, like, Instagram models or looking at people on the street. It can do a real, like, slippery slope then into porn. How do you feel about your person watching porn? And should you be considerate,

of how your partner feels about your, your porn intake. And it's all like, yes to all of it and figure it out for yourself, you know? Or if you don't think that your partner should be considerate about your porn, I don't know. I'm going down some rabbit holes here. I'm going to stop for a second. Honestly, it's so funny. The porn thing is such a tough subject for me because growing up, my father owned 13 porn theaters in Midtown Manhattan in the 80s. That was like his first, when he came to the States, he owned all of those.

and then he had a gay club for 25 years. So I grew up in a very sex positive, you know, you can do, like my brother has been watching porn since I was a child, like obviously not a child, you know what I mean, like since I was young. And but then I had like my mom who was super conservative. So it was very conflicting in the house just in general. To me, though, like, I'm going to be honest, as a sexually active adult, even in a relationship, I watch porn because there are fantasies. I personally do not want to live out, but they do get me really excited to.

think about. So of course I'll look at that. Now, did that mean that maybe I do that on social? Yeah, there are definitely some people on social that I'm like, man, I just have a weird like thing with this person that I find them really fucking attractive, even if it's a woman. Like I have no desire necessarily to go act on it, but I kind of like just letting my brain go wild and have a moment. Does that mean? Now, to me, where I think it becomes an issue was it when it impacts your relationship. So if my partner isn't sleeping with me because he's so busy jacking off and watching important. That's an issue, right? Like, then, okay, then I might get jealous of the girls because I'm like, what does she have that I don't, right? Like, what are you getting from this that you're not getting

from me? Versus if my partner is like, yeah, you know, sometimes Ryan will be like, yeah, you were, went to bed last night early and I was alone and you're like, have at it. Like, go enjoy yourself. I'll take care of you another day. Like, thanks for not waking me up. So I think it's also, too, like you said, it's the, I think at the end of the day, like anything else, it's the security of your relationship, but also within yourself. Like for me, at least, I have done. the work to this point, to where I'm at now, forever to go, that I trust myself, that I trust that if something

feels off, I'm going to go, hey, who the fuck is this girl that you have been commenting that she has a hot ass? Like, that's really inappropriate knowing that I'm your girlfriend and people can see that versus, oh, yeah, you love fitness girls because you like learning about this. Yeah, she's hot. Okay, like her, she's got two million followers. I'm not too worried about you doing

anything about this behind my back. Her ass is really great. Actually, show it to me. You know, like you said, it could be a moment of, wait, wait, let me see what you like. Oh, I like that too. Yeah, that is really hot. I can see why you would. I don't think we need to shame that aspect of things. No, I don't think we do either. And I think a lot of people, when they ask these questions, they're just sort of like, there is a yes or no. There's a right and wrong answer. And it's really just about how is it impacting your relationship? And then you all figure it out together, right?

So it's not as sexy of an answer as some people want it to be. And a lot of of people that have a yes or no are usually coming from a place where they've been hurt by it in the past, where they've been in that relationship with that boyfriend that looked at porn and masturbated instead of having sex with their. So they're like, okay, then if you're looking at porn, if anyone else is looking at porn in the future, then that means they don't really want me or they're cheating on me or something like that. But if you're in relationships with people that have a healthy relationship with porn, then it's not going to impact the relationship or it can be like a fun addition addition that you like add to the relation, whatever, you know, whatever works

for you all, then it works, yeah. 100%. So I did have a question. Somebody asked. Now, when I heard the question, I was like, I'm just going to ask Jeff. Because to me, I was like, I don't really understand the confusion, but someone asked the difference between when to know it's a boundary or jealousy. And I guess to me, I would see the question being the boundary of like respect, kind of what we just talked about. But what comes to mind, even so, because they specifically wanted me to ask you the difference between a boundary and jealousy. Talk to me.

What do you hear when you hear that? I think that sometimes, I imagine that this question is coming in place of like, sometimes we make boundaries and it comes from a really jealous place, which then actually isn't a boundary. It's similar to the whole, I think, was this two years ago now? Do you remember when Jonah Hill? Oh, yeah. You know, by the way, he like lives by me. see him now all the time and I can't not like every time I see him at the beach I'm like like I know

you know what I read those texts but yeah sorry anyways we all read those texts so I think that you know right so Jonah Hill had a girlfriend who was a surfer babe and the surfer babe had a bunch of like surfer babe photos and videos on Instagram being in bikinis and stuff like that and Jonah Hill was eventually to Sarah, his ex-girlfriend, he said, I'm making a boundary. You can no longer post bikini pictures or whatever the request was. I'm not getting exactly right. But he had a problem with her posting these sexy surfer pictures on Instagram, which she did before him and continued to do after him.

And he said, this is a boundary. Really, it wasn't a boundary. That's not a boundary. That was a request. and it was coming from a place of insecurity and jealousy, right? So that's what was all wrapped up in it. So sometimes we want to make boundaries that are coming from jealousy and insecurity, and that's usually not the best place to make a boundary,

because it's not actually a boundary. It's you trying to be controlling, you trying to be sometimes manipulative. In this case, I don't think Jonah Hill was trying to weaponize therapy-speak, but he sort of accidentally was using therapy speak, the word boundary, as a way to make her feel bad. And a lot of times when we say this is a boundary, that comes with, you want to respect it. You want to respect everybody's boundaries, especially people that you love and that you care about or you're in relationship with. So if you use that word, you get some attention when you use it, but you have to use it in the right way. And that way he wasn't actually using it correctly.

I see it. It's about, and I totally know what you mean. It's like boundary is one of those words that when you say, well, that's my boundary. You're kind of like, it's a dead stop, right? You're like, okay, well, hey, if I, I don't want it to. But it's, to me, it's the same as like when I hear triggered or gaslighting. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what did you just say? It's like, no, no, that guy was disrespectful.

That wasn't triggering. That person was rude. Like, that's what that was. And so I'm with you. I think it gets used inappropriately, not inappropriate. You know what I mean? incorrectly used to say like it's a boundary. You're not allowed to follow any women on social media.

And it's like, well, actually, a boundary would mean that this is for me, right? Like that this is a moa thing. I can't set a boundary for you to behave in a specific way. I could say I won't allow that behavior personally. Like, I won't handle someone that's being disrespectful or rude or dismissive. That's something that I have. Hey, if you're going to be disrespectful to me, then I'll remove myself, right? That's the, hey, I want to keep you in my life.

But if you continue like this, I'm going to have to kind of versus. controlling and telling you, Jeff, you can't follow these women on Instagram. That's a boundary I said. And it's like, no, yeah. That's a perfect explanation. Yeah, you're trying to control someone else's actions by creating this, quote, unquote, boundary. That's not a boundary. Boundaries are only for you.

And like, if you do X, then I will do Y. That's what it is, right? So that's the difference, I think, is what the question is asking. You answered, no, you did a great job. Thank you for that. Thank you for clarifying for me. I know another question. So, I mean, I have so many, but we're going to go.

Have you seen that jealousy, like, is it always inherently unhealthy? Or can there be somewhere? Like, I know you work with couples a lot. Like, have you ever seen jealousy where you're like, oh, that's not really unhealthy? Like, that makes sense? Or is it always like, yikes, this is coming from an insecure place? I mean, I think it's, ugh. I know.

I was going to say, I know, this is one of those gray ones, but I still want to, like, give a black or white answer because it's just more fun that way. I'm so careful. I think that does jealousy always come from an insecure place? I would say yes, but it's, but sometimes you are valid in feeling insecure if somebody is doing something really inappropriate or, maybe trying to get you to feel insecure. I think there's a normal amount of jealousy, a healthy amount of jealousy that one can feel in a relationship, but it all depends on what you're going to do with that jealousy. A lot of times this is talked about in the like the Polly community being like,

okay, if you're going to be Polly, brace yourself for a shitload of jealousy and insecurity, where you're almost just like welcoming it in to a certain degree. Like, if you're going to fuck around there, you've got to be pretty resilient and understand how to tolerate a bunch of insecurity and jealousy. So their intention is to go into those relationships and be open to experiencing it and not let it hijack them or not let it make them controlling or not let it make it so that they break up the relationship or something. They're just going to be present with it, mindful with it. And that can be sort of extreme sometimes walking into those types of relationships. But if you're just in a regular old monogamous relationship and there's feelings of jealousy and insecurity, I typically am like, where is this coming inside of you?

How is this coming from? Is this tied to anything in the past? How can you make it so that you're not attacking your partner in a way, you know, if you're going to talk about it, you want to bring it up in a way so that they can compassion respond to you. But, yeah, is it coming from a place of insecurity? Most likely, but I don't want to say that you're broken because of it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I would say, I wouldn't look at it as like, oh, it's healthy. It's like, no, I think, like you said, there's a balance of, okay, if I'm at a party and I see my partner talk to a girl, there might be a pang of me of like, well, who's she? Right? You're just like, huh. But then usually I'll stop and I'll be like, all right, Sabrina, where's that coming from? Like, okay, you care about your partner.

You don't want to lose them. You don't want them to like another girl. This makes sense. Versus anything from beyond that, because that's a cute. That's where I'm like, oh, I care about this person. Like, I like them, right? That's where I can stop and be like, oh. But like you said, what am I going to do with it?

If I went up and was like, what the fuck? Why are you talking to this sleaze ball? Like, that would be a, hey, the pinch doesn't match the ouch. Like, this person's allowed to have conversations and communication unless there is, because I never want to get, to talk about gaslighting. I never want to tell somebody. You're being ridiculous. Come on. There's nothing there. It's like, hey, if your gut feels like something feels off, it's like, then let's explore that. But I need to hear what makes that feel like your gut versus the fact that you don't think you're good enough. Because somebody had actually even asked, why do we feel jealous and why do we fear our partner may leave us for other girls? And it's like, the answer's in the question, right? Like, to me, thank you for asking and then thank you for answering it. It's like you're nervous that this person's going to like something that the other person has more than you. But that's where they're So it's like you're jealous of that.

And then the way to combat that is to remember who the fuck you are. Right? Like, sure, could my partner go and be with any slew of women? Absolutely. So could I. Could I go and have any slew of men? Sure. But I'm very happy and I'm cognitively choosing my partner.

And if my partner is choosing me as well, then that means that they are something that they see within me that has a value that they appreciate. And I think for more often that if you're, because I think the jealousy and the insecurity really do kind of go hand in hand. if you're feeling jealous, it doesn't matter how many times your partner can reassure you, you don't genuinely feel that maybe you deserve it or that you're good enough or that you're worthy or that you have the characteristics that perhaps this other person has. And what we forget is that the other person that we're jealous of is a human.

That person's also experiencing, they have their own insecurities. They have their own shit that makes them feel sad. And I think we so lose sight on that because we're so used to, at least for me, or most of the people in this community that have a lot of anxiety of other people being chosen over us. of other, you know, even something as simple as like my father, you know, I, it took me a minute to realize, like, why did I struggle for so many things? It's like, because my father literally chose another woman over our family. He chose to be with other people all of our lives instead of being at functions. He cheated on my mom every way that he could, any way he could walk, he was doing that.

And so it's like, it's not a surprise. Oh, where does that come from? It's like, but it's also understanding, I think, at a deeper core route that like, just because I might feel insecure, it doesn't mean that my partner did anything. That could also be coming from the fact that, like, that's how I perceive myself, that if my own father walked out, why wouldn't you? Exactly. A lot of times it comes from some old wound or trauma or past relationship.

And there's also the message that a lot of us internalize, whether we're aware of it or not, that we should be our everything to our partner. We should be able to please them on every single level. And that might, it's not going to be the case. That's not going to fucking happen. Never. So I want to feel like in my relationship that I'm going to please my partner creatively on every single level.

But she is really into pottery and I can't do fucking pottery. So she's going to have some. And pottery is a very sexy art. We all know this. So she's going to like have some very creative pottery times with all of her pottery friends. And some of them are going to be like good look. in hotties and I'm going to be jealous. I'm like, I want to be her pottery friend as well and give her all of her, like meet all of her pottery needs. That's a little controlling,

a little ridiculous. I don't have time to fucking do all the pottery that she wants to do. And so she's going to have actually very special artistic, creative relationships with other people that know how to talk art and I don't know how to fucking do it. And there could be, there would be if I was in my 20s, like a part of me that would be very jealous and insecure of these relationships that she has. But I can't give her everything that she wants and she deserves, so she should be able to go get that in other places. And I want to be able to trust that if she's doing pottery with her pottery friends,

that it's not going to turn into a sexy pottery or, I don't even know what the fuck that is, but if it does start turning into sexy pottery, then she's going to have to have to be a sexy pottery, then she's going to have a boundary around that and she won't start doing like sexy intercourse with somebody. You know what I mean? Or she won't start like making out with her sexy pottery friend. So I trust that she'll be able to put that boundary up and that makes me feel a lot more secure. But I might have to like talk to her about tell me about these sexy pottery friends. I want to meet them.

I feel kind of insecure about it. And she'd be like, oh, of course that makes sense. And don't worry. nothing's going to happen. I might need a little bit of reassurance every now and then. But yeah, the message of it usually comes from I should be able to provide everything to my person. And that's unrealistic. Completely. I saw like one clip. It was like more clickbait. And it was like this doctor therapist saying, you know, you should never date anybody that triggers you. You know, your partner should be satisfying you all of your need. And I'm like, wait, what life are you?

where the fuck are you living? Like, can I have a ticket to that place, please? Because like, if there could be a place where, because again, even what is a trigger, right? It's neutral inaction or action. It's not someone slapped you in the face. That's not a trigger. That's just fucking disrespectful.

Nobody should be hitting you. A trigger could be something as simple as my partner closed the door a little too loud. And, oh, my God, it reminded me of when my father used to lock me in my room. Oh, my God, I got triggered that on paper, anyone else in the room is like, all he did was close the door. And I think that's that kind of misconception here. that like, oh, relationships just mean like I'm never triggered or all that. It's like, no, no, no.

All that means is that you then know how to check in with yourself before you fucking check in with your partner. Like, I have the same. I go to fitness classes where there are some of the most beautiful, good-looking men that are there. And my partner has dropped me off at some of these classes. And I can see his face when he looks in. And I usually, after, like, I'll come out and I'll tell him about the people that there. I'll be like, okay, so that guy, yeah, he's very attractive. The guy has the brain cells of a two-year-old and could not hold the good.

conversation. Good luck to him. This guy, hilarious. Oh, he's a fuckball. Like, I'll tell him about it so that he feels like he was there with me. He feels part of it. Like, I'm not hiding something being like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy. And then you start to see, we followed each other. And then you start to see, wait, are you messaging this person? It's like, I think there's a way that we can also articulate. Like, somebody had asked, how do you communicate that with somebody? Like, either, if you have somebody that's so painfully insecure and jealous, like, how do you, talk to somebody, that would be my first question. I would love to ask you is like, how do you talk to somebody that you're like, hey, you know, because I think even before we go into how do you

say this, to anybody that's listening, I have personally, I have been so insecure that I've done things like that. Well, if you don't want to go out with me, you don't have to. Like the outs, right? Fine, if you have another date, you'd rather go on. And man, now I understand as being somebody who's so much more secure within themselves and in a relationship, how much of a fucking turn off that is. It is not hot. Someone who's so, you're like, okay, a little self-deprecation is cute until it's like, all right, dude, really? Like, I think me being here on this date with you holding your hand should fucking make you feel pretty goddamn good right now. And instead, you're comparing yourself to the person they're like, but what does somebody, let's say if they're in that situation, how can we communicate with people that are feeling insecure?

That's the first question. The first thing you do before you even communicate it is have compassion for yourself. So a lot of times we feel jealous or insecure, whether it's retroactive jealousy or like in the moment jealousy. And we usually shame ourselves for it. I'm so unattractive for feeling this way. There's something wrong with me. I'm fucking broken. There's a lot of, you know, self-critical voices that go on.

So you're feeling jealous or insecure. Be really compassionate. As if, you know, your favorite, like compassionate therapist was like, oh, it's okay. parent was incredibly loving or your best friend was like, I got you, babe. You know, like, so treat yourself nicely. And then once you're like not feeling hijacked by shame about it, see if you can approach your partner in a way that isn't attacking, right? Like, why are you fucking talking to that bitch?

Who the fuck are these people you're following? You're just going to make them defensive, right? Now they're attacked. Now they want to defend themselves. They don't know, what the fuck is going on here? And you get into some bullshit fight about it. So instead, you have compassion for yourself and you approach somebody. You're like, can I tell you about these feelings that I'm experiencing?

That sounds, don't say that. You sound like a fucking therapist, first of all. This is real time. Okay? This is us being human going. Exactly. I'll say sometimes I'll write things out for people and I'm like, no, no, no, no, I say that. Don't say things like this.

Yeah, I know. I can't take the therapy out of my speak. Like, I'm just a fucking therapist, right? But I have to try to do this, especially on your, like, say it how it really is podcast. So you go to your partner and you say something like, I'm feeling insecure, I feel really jealous, and here's why. That's all. That's all. You don't have to say, like, it's because you, yada, yada.

It's just because, like, I feel really insecure because I'm looking at these hot CrossFit babes and they have better bodies than me. Or I feel really insecure because I'm never going to be able to be a sexy. pottery friend for you. And, you know, so you're just, you're saying like, I feel this, and it's because of this. This is the reason I'm feeling this way. So it's some cliche, I statements, whatever, we can't get away from it. And then hopefully your partner will be like, oh, I don't want you to feel insecure. Or, oh, tell me more about that. Or, oh, let me reassure you. Or, what do you need? You know, like, and it's just sort of a regular, vulnerable conversation. So there's a difference between, like, feelings of anger and rage and revenge.

Like, those are what we call in the biz secondary feelings. And underneath the secondary feelings are the primary feelings of fear, sadness, despair, grief, loss, powerlessness. If you can come from, like, a primary feeling sort of way, typically you're met with a really, like, compassionate response. Totally. And I think it's like, then we also have to remember, too, like, on the receiving end of that is like, you have to also remember, like, your partner's just a human too. Like, they might not, they might hear that and be like, okay, I don't know what to do with that, right? Like, or thank you for sharing that. Like, okay, well, what can I do? Like, I'm not going to not come to my sex with pottery class. Like, I'm not going to just not do all of these things. But would it make you feel better to drop me off and pick me up? Would it make you feel better to meet them? Would it make you feel better to maybe take the beginner class and eventually you can join us? Like, I I think it's about the goal is to share with your partner, not because you're trying to change them and say, oh, okay, well, you now need to do all these things different

because, like, I don't think it should be a battle that you fight alone. Like, somebody had asked, like, if I'm jealous, should I just not say anything? And it's like, I think it's a way of how you say it, right? Like anything else, it's not the message, it's the delivery, too. It's like, I don't want to be accusatory. But if I say, hey, can I share something with you? Yeah, what's up?

You know, I get it. That girl was a babe and a half. But I've actually been feeling like a little bit down on myself. And when I saw that you stare, like when you looked over at her and said a noise, but yet I've never heard you say that about me, made me feel really shitty about myself. And I'd love to hear like, are you attracted to somebody like that? Or are you still attracted to me? You know, like, can we spice up our sex life? Like, whatever. Because it's then you become a team about it, right? Like, it's not just me ridiculing or yelling at you. It's about us being like, hey, let's problem solve this together. Let me share with you so that you understand how I tick. And then you know what bombs to not walk on, right? Like, if I know that this is going to have,

hurt you, I would hope that you wouldn't say that. So my last question for you, which I chuckled when I saw it, but if someone is never jealous, does that mean that they're not into you? No, that does not mean that they're not into you. But I do think there's a lot of people that use that as a barometer. If, yeah, if my partner's really jealous and that must mean that they really like me, it most likely means that they're just feeling fucking insecure. That's all.

It's not so much about you unless you're deliberately being an asshole trying to make them feel insecure or something. But that's a whole other level of not okay. So no. It's a fair question. It's a silly question, but it's a fair one because I think a lot of people do that. So I don't know. What would you say?

I would definitely say no. It's like the texting thing. It's just that black and white like, well, he didn't text me that he doesn't like me. And it's like, I'm sorry, but where did you come up with like, okay, fine, you're right. The inaction, he doesn't, he hasn't texted me today. Okay. So that's exactly what happened. But to me, it's like, then we add the narrative on what that means, right?

So like if someone's not jealous, it's like, maybe they don't have insecurities that maybe they haven't shared with you their insecurities. And maybe the things that bother you like, oh, well, that would make me insecure, does not make them insecure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we're the way that we're talking about this, you and I, is we're kind of encouraging. people to be really direct in a straightforward way. I do, if you don't want to be direct,

there is an indirect way that I'm okay with. It's sort of indirect and direct at the same time. So a lot of times, if you're feeling insecure or jealous, and like we're saying, why don't you go ahead and speak up and talk about that, if you don't want to talk about why you're feeling insecure, there's usually something going on underneath it where you just want more closeness or you want more love, right? So you can just say, get over here. Like, give me lots of kisses. Like, you can just ask for the love that you fear you're not getting in whatever sort of way that you want to get. It can you ask for reassurance, ask for cuddles, go ahead and make a move, whatever you need to do. Just ask for affection or attention. And a lot

of times it'll address the thing that you're feeling in the moment. I love that. As long as that comes from a place of that authenticity, right? It's like, like anything. It's like, no, I don't want you to do that because you're trying to get the girl jealous that your boyfriend was just talking to. I want you to do that because you're like, hey, in this moment, I need more connection.

I'm feeling a little down. And you know what? You giving me a hug just reminds me that, like, I'm safe and that's okay. And that maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought. So it's like, I actually love that. Jeff, as always, so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on and shooting the shit.

Where can people find you? The book, of course, will be linked in the show notes. But again, just give us a little plug. Yes, you can find Therapy Jeff on TikTok and Instagram. You can go buy my book called Big Dating Energy, wherever the fuck you buy books. You can also listen to, I have two podcasts. One of them is called Big Dating Energy, another one is called Problem Solved. And that is, oh, I also have a Patreon. You can look for a Therapy, Jeff, on Patreon if you want premium content there. Beautiful, Jeff, thank you so much and congratulations again on the book. Yeah, thanks for having me on.