The Sabrina Zohar Show - 88: The Spark, Closure, and Debunking Dating Myths With Britt Frank

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

In a discussion debunking dating myths, neuropsychotherapist Britt Frank and host Sabrina explore how the brain is involved with these false ideas. They challenge the myth that knowing why someone behaves a certain way will fix a relationship, emphasizing the importance of personal emotional responses over external explanations. They also address the misconception that triggers are others' responsibilities, suggesting that personal reactions need self-examination. The idea that being single will solve problems is debunked, encouraging curiosity about triggers instead. The duo highlights that texting doesn’t necessarily indicate relationship intentions, stressing the need for contextual understanding and balanced brain chemistry in early dating stages. Finally, they discuss that people don’t change for others unless it aligns with their core values, and adults can't truly be abandoned but can be left, advocating for personal agency in relationships. Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Britt's books! The Science of Stuck and The Science of Stuck Workbook Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. We're back for another week as always and it's my favorite because this week we have a special guest who's back. I'm not going to say who yet, but she's back for a third time if anyone can figure it out or saw her name when you clicked in on this. Yay, I'm so excited. But as always, before we get into the episode, which today we're debunking your dating

myths and we're debunking your dating myths also incorporating neuroscience and the brain. So this is really fun for me because I am a nerd and I love. love to understand under the hood what's actually happening in your head and in your brain while these things are transpiring. It's not just about, oh, it happens. It's like, why, though, right? We're really going to start to dig in and we have the best person for it. And so I'm so excited. But before we do that, let's go over some housekeeping, as always. Please don't forget to rate and review the show wherever the fuck you're listening to it or watching it. Hello, YouTube. We love to have you. We love to see you. If you guys want to watch it, you can go watch all the

episodes on YouTube, do the work podcast. But if you're listening on Spotify or Apple, please just rate the show. It's the only way that we can grow. If you give it five stars, it helps me get other guests. It helps me help with the sponsors. Please show our sponsors some love. They're helping keep the show free. And if you don't want to deal with the sponsors, great, you can subscribe and get ad free listening and two bonus episodes a month. You get to pick your poison and pick your adventure. Invest in yourself, and I'm here to give back to you if you do. So the course is out. The foundation course has been amazing. And today, we have actually launched our other course with my special guest that's here today on breakups and how to really move on, how to understand

what's going on, how to process what's happened, and how to really give yourself a fighting chance to move through it, not just around it. So if you guys need help with no contact, break up, situationships, any endings of any sort, this is the course for you. And it's launched today. We try to make it as affordable as we possibly could to give you guys some things so that you can come back to it anytime you need. And there's so much support based on science and neuroscience as to how to actually do this. So guys, as always, thank you for everything. Thank you for supporting the show. And today we have our very special guest, Britt Frank, is here.

She is here in the fucking house. She's here in the studio. She's actually sitting right next to me. So without further ado, let's get right on into it. Hey, Britt. Hi, I'm so excited to be back here again having this conversation. Thanks for having me. I'm stoked, dude.

I'm stoked because the amount of times I reference you is kind of concerning. I, like, science is stuck. Your first book is something that's been such a game changer to me. because you have such a beautiful and eloquent way of simplifying such complex neuroscience and neuropsychotherapy, all the neuro, right, all the brain stuff. You have such a succinct way of making it so simplified. But for anyone who doesn't know you or hasn't listened to your past episodes, can you share a little bit about you and how the fuck you got started in all this?

Oh, tears. So I'm a licensed neuropsychotherapist, which means I do brain things. And most people don't know this. And it's absolutely bonkers to me. You do not need to know anything about the brain to be a licensed therapist. Like, I'm going to say that again for the people in the back. You do not need to learn about the brain to be a therapist. And a lot of people don't know that the people that they're going to have never studied

the brain. And all this brain stuff, a lot of it has been sort of gate kept by academia and by people with lots and lots of money and resources. This shit doesn't have to be complicated. It's not a rocket science. It's neuroscience. let's talk about what we're talking about so we can get moving because that was a hot mess. If you do not know me, I smoked meth.

I had eating disorders. I was a love and sex addict and the list could go on. My list of mental health diagnoses was not one page. It was wrong. And learning what I now know and what I now teach changed everything. So, yay, brain. That's why I love you so much. I remember when you text me and you're like, I was scared to say this,

but I was happy to tell you that I smoked meth out of a light bulb like in a hotel room. And it's like, yes. because that is the reality is like the two people that you see sitting here right now have a very colorful past very colorful and that doesn't mean that it's good or bad what that just means is like there's so much more relatability that we have that we can bring to the table of like we were both in your positions maybe not to the extremes of me being like just fucking having my my ho hat on wandering around New York waiting for anyone to choose me and you having your drug and substance abuse addictions doesn't mean that that you cannot work through that and come out the other side

and fucking start to do the work, right? And so today, I'm really excited because today we're going to be talking about debunking myths. And debunking myths, and the first one that we're even going into is so exciting for me because you changed the fucking game for me on this myth. But we wrote down like a list of things that we think are the most common misconceptions, the most common what pop psychology or a quick fucking Instagram post makes you think that you know everything about this, but we actually want to understand the brain and how what's actually happening in your brain. And so the first thing I wanted to even talk about was something that you

just like flipped me in my head was this need to know why, right? One of my clients I love and she's like, oh, I think I'm fucked up like, and funny to think that I'm like, no, no, no, you're normal actually. And she's like, my bad habit, if you will, is she's like, I always have to know why. I have to ask why and I catch myself asking why. I must be, it must just be me. But I'd love to know really, your thoughts, your reframe, just everything on this, having to know why, does that help or does it actually hurt even more? Oh, and this one is such a hot take, right? Because everyone is invested in that I want to understand, I want to know the why. And one of the biggest myths that keeps people stuck, especially in dating, is if I could just understand why they do that, then somehow that

will magic my situation from being what it is to what I want it to be. And here's the rug. We need to know why we do what we do because self-awareness is key, yay. But understanding why someone else is behaving, acting, calling, not calling, texting, not texting, understanding why someone does a thing, does not change the thing. So when people come to me and they're like, I just don't understand why they're doing that. The first thing I tell them is we have to reframe the why do they do that to I don't like that they do that. Ditch the why. Ditching the why is one of the most powerful, like Insta things that you can do with no advanced training and no special gear, stop asking why and say, am I okay with this?

Am I tolerating this? Do I like this? And that's my job to understand the why. I could tell you the why. I can get out a whiteboard and we can sort of like murder diagram out with like red string why they do that. It's not fucking helpful. So instead of why, change it to what and how do you feel about it? Which I love.

That reframe actually like kind of changed, even for me personally, change the game because like even let's give an example, right, of like, okay, why didn't they text me? So if we reframed that to I don't like, well, I don't like that they didn't text me. It's like, okay, so if I, off the bat, if we went to the why version, if I was like, why didn't they text me, he's at work, right? So if I just gave you an answer, right, I answered the why, and I gave it. But why can't he still text me while he's at work? Okay, so you're coming with another question.

The why becomes about the other person. Why aren't they do it? Like, again, for my anxious folks, I know you don't like to hear this. You're also avoided because that we're avoiding looking internal and we're making it about the other person versus. reframe, right? Okay, why didn't he text me? I don't like that this person didn't text me. Great, what don't like about it? Well, I don't feel like a priority. Okay, is it that I actually don't feel like a priority? Or is it that maybe this is reminiscent of something I experienced when I was a child. Oh, or is it that I'm scared of abandonment?

You can actually start to understand where that discomfort lies because it has nothing to do with the inaction, right? It's not about the text. It's really, though, understanding like what's coming up for me. but I was curious like, is there something in our brain that we default to the why and, you know, what's that about of like what's actually happening up there? Oh, gosh. And it's, I was really offended and I got really pissed off when a therapist said to me, you're using why questions to bypass all of the feelings that you do not want to feel. And I was like, fuck you.

I am a genuinely inquisitive person. I am a seeker of knowledge. Clutches at my pearls. I was so mad. Oh, my God. poor therapist. I was like, what are you talking about? I am a seeker. I am not bypassing. But when we're in relationships and people do things that confuse us, the brain hates uncertainty. Like our brains do not like, our brains are patterned prediction seeking machines. So when someone

does something that we don't understand, it's going to trigger the amygdala. It's going to trigger the alarm system of our brain. And then the firemen are going to come running down the pole. and one of the fastest ways that we try to self-soothe is through controlling other people. Why is what the psychology world calls an external locus of control? I hate all the psychobabble terms. They've become so weaponized. Don't use external locus as control as a weapon, please. But like what we want is an internal locus of control.

Just more simply put, do your fucking work. Do the work, right? So why will self-soothe for a second like scratching an itch or doing a drug? It's like, yeah, the hit'll soothe you. and then it will make it worse. I love what you just said that why begets more wise. Like a question begets more questions and then you have a vortex of I don't get it, what's going on versus I'm going to get curious about me and then what's going on for me.

And eventually if you drill down far enough, you're going to find some little skeletons in the closet or creepy crawlies under the rocks. And it's so funny because for me personally, maybe that's why I grow at such a rate is like I get excited when things like that happen. Like, no, I don't want to feel hurt. Obviously, it's like, no, we enjoys that feeling. But when I start to even like, I don't think, I don't remember the last time I asked like why something is happening because I know very consciously that is my brain trying to protect me. It doesn't want to actually understand what's happening.

It's trying to externally understand what's happening. But it really became more cognizant and clear, like, especially what you just said of when you're anxious and uncomfortable, you try to change your surroundings. Hey, shout out to all my trolls right now for anyone listening that attacks me for you should speak differently. I don't like the way you speak. I don't like your cursing. I'm uncomfortable. And instead of acknowledging and saying, wow, this has to do with me,

me trying to change. No, anxious folks love to change their surroundings. So you need to speak differently so that I'm more comfortable as opposed to understanding, well, do I have a choice here? Yeah, I get to not listen, right? I can just move on with my life. And instead, maybe I can look at what is that person saying that's bothering me so much?

The word of the day is, like, getting curious. How can I get curious about my lived experience and care less about why you're doing this to my lived experience. I love that. And curiosity is one of the best anti-anxiety medications that are available naturally in our brain because you can't be curious and panicking at the same exact time, which is another one of the myths that you teed up so beautifully, which is my trigger is your responsibility and your problem.

Like, yes, in a healthy, equitable relationship to people are not trying to intentionally punch each other in the face, unless that's your jam, in which case. safe, sane consensual. But like, my trigger is not your responsibility. If you're at work and you don't text me and I'm feeling anxious and triggered by it, that one's on me. That's like the video I made that people snapped back on where the girl was like, you know, he's a red flag because when he texts me, I got anxious and I got nervous. And it's like, and she's like, red flag, he's a red flag because look what it did to me. And it's like, wait a minute.

So now even your, even what happens to you is now someone else's problem. Because I think let's talk about it a little bit more about. debunk a trigger, right? You and I've talked about this extensively off camera that, like, there is a common misconception of a trigger. Like, a trigger isn't like, you said something very disrespectful to me. That trigger was like, no, no, no, that didn't trigger you. That's just a disrespectful. Any human on the planet would be like, no, thank you. But what I think a misconception is, is like, what is an actual trigger? What does that actually mean to you and what actually happens in your brain, Britt, take it away? Yes, I love this because this has not been talked about.

nearly enough because the word trigger has now become synonymous with you did something bad. They triggered me does not equal they did a bad thing. A trigger by definition is something neutral, something objectively neither good nor bad. It's just a thing. It's just information. You did a neutral thing that my little brain's filing system has a file that said last time that happened, something bad happens as part of that. So like if someone punches me in the face, that's not a trigger. That's abuse. If someone calls me a name, that is not a trigger that is abuse.

But like if I texted you and you don't text me back because life, because busy, because you have your own thing going, that's not objectively bad. It might trigger my story of, oh, my God, they didn't text me back. And this means that I'm unlovable and unworthy and I'll never find a person to love me. The trigger is a neutral thing, like a level one that I'm reacting at a level 10. So a trigger is by definition, not a thing until I attach a story to it. Exactly. All the trigger is is is a cue to your nervous system.

You're in danger. It's like, I think people think it's this conflated thing. It's like, all it is is that neutral thing. Your brain's like, hey, we have a problem. And I'll give you an example of two very specific things. Like, Ryan one said to me, calm down. Now, in what world has that ever worked for a human, let alone a woman? And I was like, oh, so you have a death wish.

That wasn't necessarily, I wasn't like he triggered me. it's like, no, that was disrespectful. That was dismissive. I don't know most people that would be like, calm down. Okay. And like even that, I just told him, I was like, hey, I didn't love that. I didn't say like, yo, you just triggered me by saying calm down. I was like, well, that's just dismissive.

I was like, can you actually listen to me? Versus I once asked him to do something. And he was just like, no. Right. Like, it was a very neutral. You're allowed to say no, right? I got triggered. And instead of being like, what do you mean?

No. What the fuck? And like, exploding on him. In that moment, all he said was no. Like I was cognizant enough to be like, there was no breach of contract here, right? Like you're allowed to say I don't want to go do that, right? I don't want to go do that this weekend. And but what it did with me is I was like, wait a minute, brain went, you're not safe because

when you were a kid, my dad would go and just walk away and be dismissive. And that felt like, oh my God, I'm not safe. So when I expressed him, I said, whoa, okay, hey, can I just share something with you? That what you just said really triggered me. You didn't do anything wrong. But that reminded me of how my father used to be really dismissive of me moving forward. could you maybe try and say, you know what, babe, that doesn't work for me this weekend? Something different besides literally just no.

And he was like, of course. He was like, thank you for sharing. I didn't realize something so minute would upset you. Because you didn't accuse him. Exactly. There was a difference. When we're triggered, there was like one therapist. I have told you.

I can't remember the fuck she was. And I saw a video and I was just so enrage. And she was like, guys, here's a reality. If someone triggers you, stop dating them. Stop dating people that trigger you because that's just not health and blah, blah. And it's like, wait a minute. So just now avoid. avoid any problem forever forever avoid any triggers and i think like that's that misconception a lot of

people i work with now are constantly triggered by something my new something that's not really on paper a big deal that again healing not black or white has some gray nuance of oh okay well you know this person's allowed to say that right but what it is is it's the reaction it's the pinch doesn't match the outch the amount of reaction i'm having doesn't match the situation that's where we have to stop and go okay is a real threat? Did that person say something rude, disrespectful? Or is this a projection that I'm having onto that person, which is where we're able to say the difference between a trigger is not your, it's not their problem. So to avoid people that trigger you, there's one thing avoiding someone who's avoidant or like not doing any work on themselves, not going to therapy, then yeah,

if someone's dis- But that's not a trigger. That's objectively just not a healthy, that's not a good look on anyone in a relationship. Here's the myth. People don't trigger you. Behaviors happen. Those behaviors call up a file in your brain and that's the behavior is the trigger not the person. So you can't really accurately say from a neuroscience lens, you triggered me. It's like you didn't. You did a thing. The thing reminded me of a thing and that thing was bad. Therefore, I feel like crap now.

Yeah. Anytime I'll even communicate the trigger, I'll never say you. Uh-huh. I'll always say that word or that statement or that dismissive behavior was very triggering to me. Right. Because it is important. Like I've had clients. I'll be like, well, I told him that he.

He triggered me and blah, blah, like, you know, you made me feel this. And I know that there is a lot of controversy on the you made me feel statement, which I'm actually curious your thoughts on that. It's another myth, right? Yeah. Now, again, if I gaslight you, if I abuse you, if I cheat on you, then yes, you can, if I stab you and you bleed, I have now made you bleed. If I actively hurt you and you are hurt, I made you feel away.

So the you, you know, when people say, no one can make you feel anything, it's like, well, stab someone and see if they bleed. Like you can make people feel things. However, a lot of times when I say you made me feel that's not true if it's a trigger. If it's an abuse situation, yes, you made me feel. If it's a neutral thing that then called up a thing in my brain, you didn't make me feel that way. Right. It's the same with like that of, you know, well, you didn't answer. Well, you made me feel like I wasn't a priority. And it's like, no, no, no, they just didn't answer you. Right. You felt like you weren't a priority because you created a narrative. You attached a story to it. you created this whole entire soliloquy, this novel, those novella that came after.

But what it was at the end of the day, because that's, again, healing is to me that those nuance, those shades of gray that blend, that to you, something that's triggering could mean nothing to me. Right. Could be Ryan saying no to you would be, well, no big deal. To me, it's magnified because that's very triggering to what I experience as a kid. And so that's why, to me, triggers are a superpower. I think triggers are a beautiful opportunity.

I have like a new client that I started working with and I'm excited because the reason I said yes to working with him was he said, I don't look at my triggers as a bad thing. I get excited about them because it's more place for me to explore. They're doors. They're doors. They're unlocked. They're big unlocked. Come on in. The door is open signs that something is ready to be healed.

And I think the reason people are terrified to walk through those doors is because you don't know what you're going to get into. It's gross. It hurts. It hurts. Like what's in the door is bad. Is gross is ick. But once you go in and you clean the closets out, then all the stuff doesn't fall on your head when you open the door anymore. And you know what I know is do.

that the shadow that's being cast in that closet of this big scary monster is often this tiny little fucking rock that we've completely added to. And it's like, and I, this was actually even, this is going to be another fucking myth that we have that we didn't even fucking write down

and I'm going to say. This like, well, I'd rather be single. You know, like, oh, well, when I'm single, I have my piece. But when I'm dating, I just can't. And it's like, no, that kind of plays into that triggers thing of like, listen, stay single. If that's genuinely in your life,

you're like, I really enjoy. way this, I really genuinely don't. But as creatures and biologically, we are bred to mate, right? Like, we're bred to be in groups. We're bred to, that's why there is no lone range. It's like, we all need human beings in our lives. So I always found the like stay single thing. I was like, what a myth. Like to me, of course, be single for as long as you feel like that's the space. But this, when I get dating, I get triggered. So that's why I'd rather be single. It's like, no, that's just so uncomfortable for you that you don't want to explore that. You'd rather just go back to witches.

And then there's the kernel of truth in the myth, right? The myth of just it's better to be single. There's something else here now. Something new. From exclusively on Paramount Plus, it's the series Stephen King calls Scarious Hell. Everything here is impossible, but it's also real. Sci-fi vision calls it the best show streaming right now.

We're running out of time and we still don't know rules. Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home. From binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. It's true that you will not be triggered if you're single by a relationship. Like if you're not in a relationship, then like de facto you're never going to be triggered. I had a really easy time when I was single not being triggered by relational dynamics because I wasn't in one. Like yeah.

And again, like you said, if you want to be single and that's your thing, have at it. I am not saying everybody needs. And neither. We're not saying that everybody needs to parable. But the idea that single good trigger bad, that completely neglects the reality that sometimes things need to be triggered in order to have access to them to heal. Like inside my relationship that I'm in, I had no idea that even my husband coming home from work was a trigger. Like I would notice that he would come home from work and I would just get like pissy pouty. I would pick fights.

I would get really growly. He came home from work. Like there is nothing bad about the man coming home from. his day. But the sounds of the door opening, that wouldn't have been a thing I would have known being single because no one was coming in the door. It was just me. But that gave me information that I could then get curious about that now it's not a trigger when he comes home. To me, where it's healthy versus not of the stay single is if you're staying single because you're avoiding that ass, because when you start to date, it's too overwhelming. So I'm just going to fine,

I'll stay single versus no, no, no, I can go out and date and like I can go through these experiences, but I'm making that conscious choice that being single makes more sense for me right now because maybe I don't have the bandwidth to offer a relationship to somebody. Talk about a fucking myth. A relationship goes well beyond just having conversations and texting. Like there's this thing of like, well, but if he really liked me, then why wouldn't you want a relationship with me? And it's like, those are two conflicting thoughts.

I could think you are the world and I could think you're an amazing person, but I can also know I can't offer you what it is that you're genuinely going to need. And to me, those are the people that say, I'm so ready, I'm so ready. but I can't find anyone that is. Those are the people that I have a little hard time with because I'm like, really, you're so ready, but yet you're still not having these harder conversations. You're still taking it very personally when people don't want to be with you. You're still struggling to be vulnerable with people. God forbid somebody cancels a plan.

It's the end of the fucking world. But you're not as ready because being ready doesn't just mean I'm doing, I'm showing up. Perfect. It's everyone else. But then we have to stop. And that's why I love when my clients will give me the examples of what they're going through. And then they try to say, well, see, I showed up how I'd want. And I'm like, okay, so passive aggressive, sarcastic, rude, judgmental, dismissive, pouty.

Like a child, that's you. You really genuinely think that's you being ready to be in a relationship. But here's the reality. You're not dating your parents. Eek. And then that's the myth, right? That a relationship will somehow make up for a lost childhood or fulfill all your needs. And that's the myth of readiness is that being ready means no triggers.

That's not true. If you're not getting triggered in a relationship, something has gone very wrong. And the myth of my relationship will solve my loneliness, unworthiness, and fundamental lack of self. And I got that because I was queen of that particular team. Like, let's find the right relationship where I will then have every wound of childhood fully healed. The person will take care of me. I was looking for a parent, not a partner. Daddy, come save me.

Mommy come feed me and take care of me. And I wasn't conscious of that. So I'm not like sitting here throwing shade at people. Like you're looking for a parent. It's like, but if no one can measure up and everything is bad and all of your needs are being expected to be met in this relationship, that's a pretty big sign that you're looking for a parent, not a partner. Especially when we have to look back and go, but did you even communicate that?

Because in your art, reenacting that child parent dynamic, well, you should just know, you should be taking care of me. You should anticipate my needs. And it's like, well, but they weren't able to. They were not able to. So now all of a sudden everyone else has to. And it's like, but are you even doing it? that? And that's two myths, that they should read my mind and anticipate my needs, and then the

myth that they should meet them all. In order to sustain the brain chemistry, that's like the cocktail party that is happening in your brain, it is spring break time. So like if you want to be in the dating world, you're going to need other sources of getting your needs met. It's sort of like multiple streams of social support because your brain chemistry can't really do dating if that's the only place you're getting your needs met. 100%. My mom always said, like, they're in addition to your life, not instead of. Don't make these people your life because when you're constantly, it's the same, like, when we talk about needs versus wants, and I'm like, you don't need someone to text you every single day in order to have a healthy and secure relationship. Now, when there's, like, I always

like, like, my favorite part is when there's like a comment when someone will be like, see, a guy said, like, oh, there was always, it would be a guy that's like, well, if the guy doesn't text you every day, he isn't like you, don't listen to her, that's fact, blah, blah, and it's like, no, no, no, just because one person said it, that guy might be super unhealthy, he might be super anxious. He might be toxic. He might be wanting to have a mother and not a partner. So he's coming from his lived experience. And then I'll love the girls that are like, see, a guy on here says this. I'm going to trust him. And it's like, that's a cognitive bias. You were looking for what agreed with what your thoughts are. But at the end of the day, a huge myth here is that texting equals,

well, they text me every day. They want a relationship with me or they don't text me, which means that they don't. To me, that's one of the biggest myths to debunk. Absolutely. Because how easy is it to automate text, to send to, I mean, someone could send a good morning text or a good night beautiful text out to 50 people. I have been in dating situationships where I was texted all day, all day. In my, I'm not a texter. So like, in my marriage, we will go. It doesn't mean that we don't talk to each other or communicate, but this is about one,

having the expectation. If you're expected to be texted all day, like the person that you're dating should have a life that's fully enough that they don't have the time to be texting you all day. But it's about expectations management, communication, and the knowledge that texting all day doesn't equal a relationship and not being texted doesn't equal not a relationship. Like texting is in fact just neutral data until we understand the context and the person and the expectations and the story. I don't like to text.

Like I will go all day and I'm busy. My husband's busy. But like we understand what no texting means. It doesn't mean I don't like you. I disrespect you and I'm doing something shady. It just means we're not texting people. I've had, and I've heard that before. I've had like one of my clients.

She's like, well, he doesn't text me that I am feeling disrespected. And I'm like, can you go on? I'm like, what do you feel disrespect? And I'm like, so he didn't text you for 24 hours. I'm like, how is that disrespectful? How is that inaction disrespectful? Well, because we're intimate. And I'm like, go on.

How is that disrespectful? Do you have an agreement? Did you share? Well, I told this person I'd like more. You told them that you want more. And what was their response? I'm not, I can tell you right now I won't be able to like. It was a very clear understanding.

And that's where I go back to being like, so we have some, that to me sounds like a little girl or boy, a little child that's like, well, you don't respect me and you don't do this. And it's like, can we challenge that thought a minute? And like what I love about my client is when we did challenge and she was like, oh my God, I totally get it. You're so right. Like I see that perspective.

A lot of the stuff that we're talking about isn't that it's gospel. It's this or it's this. Right. We're giving another perspective shift. Welcome to fucking healing. Is that you have two women right here sitting going, one saying I'm not a big texter. that doesn't mean that I don't love my partner.

That doesn't mean I don't care. So it's not just men that do that. It's human beings that understand that this tablet came across in our lives in the middle of our life. I wasn't born with a tablet in my hand, even if I was. There are a lot of people coming to me now in their early 20s being like, hey, I feel something's off. I'm so anxious. If this person doesn't text me, I literally lose my shit. And it's like, yeah, because look at the story you've attached to it.

Look at the narrative. Right. If we want to talk respect, how come it's disrespectful? Like if I expect someone to text me all the time, can I flip it and say it's disrespectful of me to bombard somebody? I would feel so disrespected if my partner expected me to text all day. I'd be like, I have things that I do. I have businesses to run. I have like how come it's disrespectful for you not to meet my needs?

But it's not disrespectful for me not to meet yours. So we really want to get in the gray. Like living in the gray sucks again because brains don't like gray. Brains like black and white. But living in the gray is where almost. Almost all the solutions are going to be found. Which is, and living in that black and white would be that, well, it takes 10 seconds to text. No, it doesn't.

No, it doesn't. The actual act of, hey, how are you? Right, the literal. But it's bandwidth. It's a conversation. It's, you know, because then I'll get the next thing. Well, he only texts me once. Right.

Only got a good morning text. I'm like, because when will you understand it's not about the text? When will we start to really grasp? It's what the text signifies. And I'm curious, can you explain more about the brain with texting? because we were talking about that misconception of dopamine and where are those, what's the experience? Because this also kind of leads us into the spark. Ah, myths and sparks.

So the thing, our brains are not wired for the modern worlds. Like our brains have up, if we're talking like brain updates, they haven't updated that many times. Think about if you were still using a cell phone that only had two updates available to you. Like, imagine your phone from 10 years ago. It's like, no, no, no, no. Our brains don't update. So the brains that we had living in the wild surviving lions. lion attacks are the same brains that do not differentiate what these screens are and what these

words mean on the screen, which is why I'm not a texter. And in the dating world, I was very much a texting is there for logistics. Like, I want to be on the phone. I want to be in person, whatever, but like I don't want to text because I can't read your face. And in the absence of that data, a face-to-face contact and eye-to-eye, our brains are going to make up all kinds of stories about what good morning means. Good morning with a period. They're mad at me. I'm I did something wrong. Good morning with an exclamation point. They're needy.

They're codependent. Good morning with no punctuation. They suck and they're running around. It's like our brains don't know what to do with these screens and these words. And in the absence of info, we'll make up stories and they're not usually good stories. Like our brain will go back to the filing system, usually from childhood, and go, this feels like this. This must mean that's. That's where I then that's where that definitive.

Like, no, I tell my gut is staying. I feel it. And I'm like, feelings aren't facts. Right. I feel that he's. doing something. He's lying to me. We're the facts. And here's the thing. Cocaine feels good. Leg day feels bad. But tell me that one's good and one's bad. So like things can feel good. That does not mean they are good. And that's another myth. That feel good equals good and feel bad equals

bad. A lot of the things that are really good for us don't feel good. I don't like doing squats. I do not like doing cardio. It feels bad. And it's so good. Right. Right. Drugs feel good until they're, until they're like, until I have a light bulb and I'm smoking meth out of it. Yeah. It gets bad real fast. But good is not good, bad is not bad. I'm curious, though, for the brain. And when we're talking braining, what are some techniques or things when you're getting into that, he didn't text me and then your brain is starting to fill in the blanks? I know my process, but I'm curious.

Yeah. What would be even something that someone could take from this of like, okay, well, I don't know what to do, right? You say it's not good. Okay, I cognitively understand me being obsessed with this. But then what, right? So again, the brain science, first of all, the brain science, as I learn it, makes me go, what the fuck with these designs?

Like, the design of. how humans, like we're supposed to bond, we're wired for bonding, yet the bonding chemicals are a total shit show. So like, I don't understand where this architecture came from, but it's a hot mess. When you're in early stage dating and texting, your serotonin tends to drop. And when your serotonin drops, obsession starts rising, rumination, like the obsessive spinny spiral is not always, but often a sign of a serotonin plunge. So the task is not make them text me. The task is be I get your serotonin boosted, which for some people sometimes does that mean meds, of course. But often a serotonin boost can be found through other safe, secure relationships.

And that's why having friendships, hobbies, interests, meaningful work, social supports is important, not like morally, not like you have to do this or you're not qualified. It's if your serotonin is taking a dip, you're going to need to boost it somewhere. Like yes, exercise, yes, eating right, all of those things can help. but just start with it's not me. I am not crazy. My serotonin is plunging, which is why I feel obsessive. So the task there is not externally make them do a thing.

It's I need a brain boost. I need to go to the serotonin gas station and fill back up. And can we also talk about dopamine? You know, I think there is that misconception. Oh, it's a dopamine hit. And it's like, no, no, dopamine is a reward drug. How does that play into? Because I know it's like, same with the spark.

It's like the cortisol is rising. So your stress responses are up. But with the texting, correct me, if I'm wrong, the dopamine happens in the anticipation of the reward. It's, again, our brains are like little casinos. We're like pulling levers and we're little like, I was such a crackhead with so. And I can say that because I did that drug. So I'm not being pejorative to drug users.

Yes, I am a meth or in recovery. So like, you know, our dopamine is the anticipation of the reward. And then the sometimes, think about Vegas. Sometimes you pull the lever, you make the money. Sometimes you don't. Is it this time? Is it this time? Is it this time?

It's the anticipation of the reward. word that gives you those dopamine hits. And all of these, here's another myth that we didn't talk about, but it's true. Dopamine isn't always good. Like too much dopamine is what happens when you have a psychotic break. And again, this is why I'm so like myth. There's no such thing as crazy. Crazy is not a thing. But the myth that dopamine equals good, so I need more of it, fails to account for if you have too much dopamine. Like if you can't metabolize dopamine and you have too much, you're going to go what we call crazy, which isn't. It's just excess dopamine. I'm I'm seeing things. I'm hearing things. I'm having intrusive thoughts. And now all of these impulses are

happening. Dopamine is not objectively good all of the time. I had that when I took many years ago, you know, modern medicine. Like, listen, let me preface. Anyone on medication, you do you. I'm just giving my personal Sabrina Zohar experience that I was just take a medication, take a medication, and they were having adverse effects. I was getting these SSRIs, but then I was becoming more like negative, dark, you know, harmful thoughts. And the pendulum was. swinging until I found out that serotonin's not what I needed. I had the MTHFR mutation gene and that what we found out after I did an extensive blood work and did all this stuff was that my brain it's getting the set like I can get activated so I can get I could go into that fight or flight response

and I'm having all of the cortisol depletion but the connectors are not connecting the serotonin just dropping off so it's not actually connecting so my body's not able to bring myself back down so in that that's why when I told the doctor I said when they ever they give me serotonin I get you know, really negative. And he was like, because you don't need more serotonin. He was like, we need to connect like the GABA receptors and all of this. He was like, you have other issues. That's why those have an adverse effect. It's not a, it's not a less of. It's that your brain's not processing it correctly, which is why it's not just a quick bandit of, oh, let me just go get that hit or let me go do this. It's like, actually, that could probably be overwhelming you more

than it's helping you. Yes, the myth that there's this perfect chemically balanced brain where you have this percent of dopamine and this percent of serotonin, that's, that's a lot of, that's, a myth. And the whole like, I'm chemically imbalanced and that's why XYZ, that chemical imbalance is going to, don't angry DM me. Look it up. It's a thing. The chemical imbalance theory of depression has never been proven.

And I take psych meds. I'm not anti-med. Like I go to therapy, I see a psychiatrist, I take meds. But if you were to ask a doctor, well, what's the exact balance of chemicals that my brain should have? They're all going to go, oh. Every psychiatrist I've ever been to, the first thing they say, they're like, this is a cocktail. We don't actually.

No one knows. There's no, they've been to, like, can we test for it. They're like, there is no test. We don't know what you're deficient in. We have to do a crap shoot. And that it's like, listen, if you're, if you find it, like, I have a friend that's on and she loves it. And I'm like, fuck yes. Like, yeah, you found what works for you. For me, that wasn't what I needed. And that's why I'm like, I'm not against it. It's just a matter of, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, oh, just go do this. And then you'll be balanced like the rest of us. It's like, no, no, that could also cause other issues. So just be aware that it might not be that. There is no. Your brain is braining. It's like, no, your brain is braining. It's

just a matter of figuring out what your brain needs. Exactly. No one really knows with exact certainty how the brain brains. And that's another myth that keeps us all stuck. It's like, well, you made my oxytocin plummet and therefore, like, I need more oxytocin. So I'm going to do this. I'm going to go have an orgasm so I can feel more oxytocin. It's like, we don't really know what the mechanisms are.

The med I take is great. I don't know why it's great. It just is. I was put on a med that put me in the hospital that saved somebody else's life. So it's like, it's a crapshoot. Myth. Brain chemicals. Who the hell knows?

It's sort of try it until you find something that works. Which goes into the spark because I really want to talk about that. I know that the only one I have is one Harvard study from 2015 that like the spark is just cortisol rising and other neurotransmitters depleting. But I am genuinely curious. Like I have felt the spark. I have gone out. I know I'm sure you understand what I mean by when you go out and you're like, you're sweating. Your heart is racing.

And you're like, how could this be a negative? Right? Like I'm so into this person. But I'd love to know. you know, what about it? Like, is it familiarity? Like, how is our body actually processing it to make us think, oh my God, look how strong I feel for this person.

What's actually happening? Before it's really bad is, oh, so good. Like, there is nothing better than the very first time you get a hit in meth. Don't do drugs. I am not advocating. You do, preferring said to do meth. I did not. But the spark feels incredible.

And again, when we equate, feel good means is good. We're in deep shits, right? Because again, all drugs before their bad feel good. So the spark, the sweating, the butterflies, the racing heart is your body diverting blood flow away from all of your primary organs to your arms and legs so you can escape a predator. Like butterflies happen because your body is diverting blood flow. Like if you've sat on your hand and it goes numb and you like they feel the blood rush back,

your hands tingle, right? That like tingly, I'm so into this person is often a fear. response that we mislabel as attraction. And the fear response, like feeling, that spark feeling could happen just because they're hot and your biological brain is telling you, pair bonds, mate, strong genes, they will survive the wild. Quick, fuck them. Procreate. It could be that. Funny you say that because that when I did have the spark, they were always like tall, athletic, bigger human. So you're like, yeah, you'll protect me. I mean, it's a thing. So it could be biology. It could be familiarity. If I see someone that calls back to, and again, familiar does not equal good,

Growing up in an abusive home is going to feel familiar, not good, but familiar. So that spark almost never means, and I don't like never and always, but I will say it's never good to assume a spark equals good right from the bat. Like you need more information. A spark is physiological. Like take away the story. Take away that this is the one. Take away that I found it.

This is it for me. You know, spark is physiology. It could be there for a variety of reasons, none of which necessarily is good. Yeah, and I always hear that. Like, well, but I didn't feel a spark. Well, I don't want it to get like, but can we find, the pendulum doesn't have to swing, right? It's like, I don't want you to go out with someone where you are like bored by this person and even them opening their mouth. You were like, I don't care what's coming out of it.

Can we talk about that for a second, though? Please. Because, yes, you do need attraction. Something. Right. But boredom sometimes is a defense mechanism against healthy people. If you're used to chaos and from, I had it. Like, I'm bored by nice people.

I'm bored by people who treat me well. They're so boring. And it's like, yes, some people are boring. They're not going to be a match. And I agree with you. And it's like, are you really bored? Or is it that your nervous system is putting up a big old defensive wall against what could possibly be intimacy? Oh, life story.

I'm the queen of that of like, hello. And that's why like, even when I first met Ryan, at first, I didn't feel anything. I didn't feel good or bad. I was kind of just like, curious. Yeah, he's a nice guy. Like, I'll just keep getting to know him. Then by the end of the, like when we have to the hike and he was like, you know, hey, do you want to keep hanging out? if not, that's okay, I literally stopped and I was like, okay, you didn't feel the high highs or the low,

you didn't feel anything good nor bad, right? It was neutral. I was like, so he, this to me deserves an opportunity versus when I've gone out with guys and I'm like, you didn't listen to me. You and I have completely polarizing opinions of something. I was listening to you and you were talking about golf and I could literally give a flying fuck about anything you're talking about. That's just, you're just not interested in this human being. Versus when I had to stop and I was like, I don't feel high, I don't feel low. I feel very just calm with this person like, okay, sure. Then when we were intimate, when he touched me, that's when I felt a little like, ooh la la, it wasn't a spark. It wasn't like, oh, there it is.

It was a, oh, this feels nice. Ooh, this person's passionate. Oh, you know, you feel that little the attraction. You feel that chemistry of, yeah, I like this. I want to keep going. Okay, now the sex was great. Let's do more, do more, do more. That I think is us really normalizing what a real courtship experience means. It's not like that when you know, you know. It's not like, that's it. Myth. Myth. I met him and I knew that was it. And yeah, for some people, that is their experience. But you know what it also is worked out really fucking well that that was their experience? Because I've met guys where I'm like, they're the one. And then that's it. It doesn't happen. Versus when it does. And you're like, see, but I knew that it's like,

no, that just also worked out. Right. The they're the one is interesting. Because it's like, well, are they the one who's going to trigger your trauma? Are they the one who reminds you of your Are they the one who is going to put you in a repetition cycle where you're doing the same things over and over and over again? Myth, doing the same thing over and over again. Not insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again is a sign of pain. It's the thing that brains do. That's how brains brain's brain.

But like the I found the one and the spark, like real intimate connection is going to bring your serotonin back up, which feels more like a like a warm. I've heard this. I don't know who said it. But like in such like true intimacy when you get past. the brain chemistry, feels more like a warm bath than a fireworks show. I love that. And that doesn't sound very exciting, but it's like I've done the exciting roller coaster

of spikes and crashes. I've done it with speed. I've done it with my blood sugar. Spikes and crashes are not good. They're fun. It's a ride. There's an author I love. I think it's Ellen Watts.

And he's like, this is a hot take. We do people a profound disservice and disrespect by falling in love with them. I'm paraphrasing. Because if we're only seeking the spark and the whole like, boosted serotonin, warm bath, I see you for who you are and we're connected, doesn't excite you, then you're using people as a drug.

So, ah! So wow. Yeah, and I've said that to people. I'm like, no, no, no. Because at the end it's like, I, I'm like, so this is about you. It's not about them. And like, then there's also a reality that when I,

sometimes even like, I'll be with Ryan and like, you know, you're like cuddling on the couch or something. And sometimes my, my neurotransmitter are so high that it almost, it's too much where I'm like, there's too much intimacy. There's too much love because I, don't know how that feels consistently. And then my little brain to somebody else who had really consistent parents and loving environment, that's normal. Right. Oh, I love this. It feels good.

For me, my firefighters started to come and be like, hey, you're enjoying this a little too much. You're going to probably lose this. So maybe we should try to protect you. Yes. And that's another myth that healthy intimacy feels safe and good. I had to work very hard in therapy the first year of this relationship. Because two, a brain, even a good, healthy, positive change, if it's not familiar, is going to get encoded as dangerous and bad. So healthy intimacy, if that's not your norm, is going to get filed in that this is bad, flee the scene category. So we need to know that healthy intimacy won't necessarily feel safe and good until you build, it's sort of like getting allergy shots. You need to

microdose intimacy if you're not used to it because you won't be able to tolerate it. I had an allergic reaction to people treating me well until I learned how to build my tolerance for it. So healthy intimacy does not always feel good myth. Right, 100%. Same with this other myth that we're about to fucking hit on, which is that people change for other people. It's not. I, doesn't matter how many teachings I make.

You could tell me, Sabrina, don't do math. I'm telling you, it's not going to be good. It's not going to be a great idea. But if there's a part of me that's, yeah, but I want to try. You could tell me all day and try to change me. No, no, you should be doing this and you should be doing this. But if in my core that doesn't align, well, then that person's not able to change. And I think that's, we talked about this briefly, but like the, if he wanted to, he would concept.

I think that is the epitome of two black or white. There is a shade of gray in that of, well, he didn't call me. Well, he doesn't want to call you, right? Like that is very, he's not feeling it. For whatever reason, it might not be out of want. It might be, here's a really harsh reality. Maybe you're a fucking tyrant. Maybe you were really overbearing and super fucking difficult and really judgmental and really.

And so then all of a sudden, well, if he wanted to, he would. It's like, so you take no accountability or ownership of your part in this and it's all about the other person. Well, you should be changing for me. To me, when I hear if you wanted to, he would and they will change. That to me is the clearest indication of not being, not really working on your shit. Because when you really start to, you start to understand. Like I said, really, you don't want to be anxious.

Well, you must not want it bad enough then. Right? How low of a blow that is. How no compassion, no understanding, no bandwidth. That's why I don't love the want aspect because I know Ryan and I talk all the time where he wants to do things, but there's a fucking block. And he literally does not know what that block is. Neither do I. It's not about what you just don't want it bad enough.

Sometimes it's just maybe you're limited. And maybe this really is the capacity of which your brain can handle things. And I would love to hear a little bit more of your thoughts on that. That one's so tricky. Because again, it's not all or nothing. I'll use myself as an example. So my husband was in the military. He is very clean.

He is very neat. He is very organized. I am incredibly not. Like, I am just like a little more. I try to be not like dirty, but I'm cluttery. I'm messy. I leave shit out. So it bothers him.

It like, it really bothers him when things are messy. And it's like, if I loved him, wouldn't I change? Right. But I could also say, well, if he loved me, wouldn't he accept my messiness? So it's not as simple as if they love me, they change. It's like, yeah, but the change process is interesting because people will say, well, people don't change. It's like people can change. We know from neuroplasticity.

People can. Sometimes they don't because they don't want to. Sometimes they won't because they're just stubborn and they don't feel like it. Sometimes it's a lack of capacity. Sometimes it's a neurodivergence thing. Sometimes it's a resource thing. Do I love my husband enough to be cleaner? it's not that simple.

It's like I have a whole story of growing up with like a OCD clean father who like it's still my little teenage rebellion to like leave shit around the house. But see, thank you for saying that goes back to not just because of want. There's something deeper of what's blocking you from doing that. Exactly. Now should I go to therapy and work on the fact that I leave clothes all over the place as a nephew to my father? Yeah.

But like I have other things on my priority list for therapy. Like I have, you know, sexual assault. trauma and I have a lot of other things that are a higher priority to me than deal with picking up the house. And it's not because I don't love my partner. It's just in my priority stack, that is not at the top of the list. But it's not as the myth of if I love to my wood fails to account for you. There's two people here. So who's the person that's responsible for the change? It's a lot less if they loved me, they change and more is who they are something I am willing to tolerate. Am I willing to accommodate or is this just incompatibility? 100% because what I hear is well if they wanted to

change for me they were like I had one of my clients and I love her but like she was in complete delusion land no one ever expressed themselves out no one spoke up and she kept saying well I'm ready and I'm ready and I kept calling her under shit I was like no you're not dude I was like yet here you are you continue to find yourself in the exact same fucking patterns over and over and over again and it's okay it's okay that you're still there I'm like but it's enough it's enough of deflecting the blame on everyone else and the guy came to her and like after, you know, a couple of months, he was like, listen, I thought I was ready. Like, I'm not.

And he explained to her like, I'm still dealing with this, this and this and this. His brain capacity wasn't a priority. Being in a relationship was not a priority. It was not a priority. Of course he doesn't want that. And it's, here we go. Back to the self-fulfilling prophecy. And she said, well, but I don't understand.

If I'm so amazing, why wouldn't you want to change to be with me? And my response to her, I was like, how arrogant to think that just because you deem that you are God that everyone now needs to bow around it. Because I might think I'm amazing. But you know what? I also know you might have so much trauma that it's just you can't handle this right now. Here's the other myth that dating means everything has to turn into a relationship. Dating and experiences could be there for the moment.

I could meet somebody. I have. I have met. I'll never forget this example. I had a great first date in L.A. We had such a great time. And he kept saying he wanted to see me, see me. But like he was doing a startup.

And I already knew. I was like, I know how that game goes. I know what it means to be in a startup. That's not the time you want to start a relationship. And the week after we had our first date is when Shark Tank sent me home. And to this day, I thank him because I never saw him again. But you know what? He texts me at that exact moment and he talked to me off the ledge and he called me

and he had an hour call with me because he knew. I had just gone out. I was explained he knew as an entrepreneur. He knew what I was going through. And to this day, I attribute, I didn't push myself off a ledge because, not literally, but like I didn't do something to harm myself because he called me and I talked to him for an hour. That didn't mean that just because we had that experience that that's it. He's supposed to be my person. He just helped me in that moment to be able to level up and get to that next step

when I just thought I was going to slide all the way down. And it's so important for us to be able to hold those two conflicting truth. And I know when you're a kid, you have one parent, one caregiver and you're like, but that's it. I have to change them. I have to get them to attune to my needs. I have to get them, them, them, them. Because if you have no, who else you have? my parents leave me. There was that story of that little girl that her mother left her to go to Vegas for a week and she died in her crib because it's like that's literally a reality for this child. But you're not dating your parents. You're not dating your caregivers. We need to be okay with losing people in our lives and growing a bit of a resistance that just because you have a great date doesn't

mean, well, see that nobody wants me. It's like maybe that person was there to just show you. I liked the way this person spoke to me. No one's ever spoken to me like that. Thank you. Not every connection needs to lead to an intimate relationship to any relationship. Some connections are just there for the moments. And that's really tough. And what you were saying about the parent who went to Vegas and left the kid, it's like the strategies that kept us alive as children really fuck up our relationships as adults. Which brings me to another myth that you just teed up that people can be abandonment.

People can be abandoned. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Please. We need to hit on this because to me, you don't get abandoned in your adult life. This one is so controversial in the psychology world.

And I'll stand by it. Like, yes, we need people. Yes, if you are an adult person and you are dependent financially, medically, socially, cognitively on another person, yes, you can be abandoned in that situation. But adults can't be abandoned. And here's why. Abandonment correlates to danger. So, like, if you are a cave person and you were left behind, you are going to die. Abandonment equals danger. As adults, often what we call abandonment issues are just, I don't like to be a alone, that's fine, but it's not objectively dangerous for you. So adults can't be abandoned. They can only be left. That's not the same thing. And again, assuming that you have capacity and mobility and you're not actually dependent. It's so funny. I had somebody we were talking and he was like, I, he was like, this guy abandoned me. And I said, what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? And he was like, well, we had a couple of dates and he broke up with me. And it's not fair. I didn't do anything. It's not fair. I wasn't the reason for this. And I was like,

you sound like a six year old. What do you mean? First of all, What do you mean it's not fair? I was like, this is an adult that's making a decision that he does not want a relationship with you. No one said that this is going to be fair. That's a myth. I don't know who the fuck said that it should be easy. That dating and relationship, it just flows.

It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Running a business takes work. Being a human takes work. Surviving takes work. I don't know who made this fallacy of like, it should be easy and it's work and it's, no, no, no. No one said life ain't fair, baby. Why do you think there are people in poverty and there are people in wealth? It's not fair.

That's a grave discrepancy. But what I had asked, and he was like, I feel like I'm abandoned. I was abandoned. And I said, this person just decided they did not want a relationship with you. And they get to. They get to. That is free fucking will. So do you.

You also get. So it's not, like I hear that all the time. I'm like, I'm abandoning this person when they needed me. And I'm like, yeah, but they're not taking care of you as well. You're not abandoning this person. You're acknowledging that this doesn't work for you anymore and you need to move on. If they feel that, then that sounds like hopelessness and that they're playing a victim mentality of, well, you abandoned me.

And like you said, but if I don't. I'm not paying for you if I'm not taking care of you. If you're not in a wheelchair and I'm there to help you get off the ramp, yeah, I'd be abandoning you because you'd be in danger. Correct. Versus you perceive that as danger because there's a little inner child that still feels like it's constantly being abandoned. But guess what?

To me, that's self-abandonment. That's your doing that to yourself. Oh, snap. I mean, yeah, anytime I hear the word abandonment or the feeling of abandonment, that is an immediate tell that the self-parents, the only parent you get in as an adult is the one inside your minds. Like even if your parents are alive and delightful and lovely and you call them every week, like, that's good for you. But like, even if as an adult you have good parents, the parenting job as an adult is an inside job.

And so self-parenting and self-abandonment is the work, not make sure this person never leaves me. Which is like, always that's why I hate the clickbait of like, do this to keep them. And that's again, so you're trying to manipulate and control the outcome. You're right. When I was a kid, I had no control. I was not allowed to say what I wanted. And so as an adult, that's why their anxiety comes. Well, I know I need to know what's going to happen because I am too scared.

And living in fear and not knowing was too detrimental to me as a child because I never know. Was he going to hit me? Was he going to yell at me? Was he going to leave? But that's not the case because I am an adult now who gets to make choices and decisions. To me, that's when we regulate, come back to now, re-parent that little older child so that I can respond and not react. Which is why I love the phrase. And I use this a lot with clients, with myself.

And this is not just true for dating, but for any relationship is. They get to. Like, that person didn't call me back. They get to. Well, that person, you know, cheated on me. They get to. They get to doesn't mean I'm co-signing on the behavior. It's like they get to do whatever they want because agency.

What are you going to do? Are you willing to tolerate it? Are you willing to accept it? Are there choices for you to be made? But I don't like my choices. I want this. I get that. But like, people get to do what they want.

And sometimes that can help kind of tame the why. Why did they do that? Because they get to. Oh, I love that. I think that's actually such a good place for us to put a pin because it's like, yeah, we had some other things to talk about. But here we are. Dude, what a fucking, I think what a great conversation.

I really hope that we were able to demystify some things, but also to give the reasons as to either it's normal that you're feeling this or, hey, maybe it's not as normal. Let's normalize this experience. But Brett, dude, thank you so much for joining on. For anyone listening, if you guys liked what we just had, we have the course out now. And Britt helps in more ways to give you. a real understanding as to how to move through these things, not just, oh, just count to 10 and move backwards and then just get out of the house. And it's like, no, no, no, but maybe what's causing you

to not be able to do that? What's happening? And Britt, you have a new workbook out. Do you not? I do. I'm so excited about this. Because when I was going through my shit, I didn't want to read books. I'm like, someone just tell me what the things are to do. So the getting unstuck workbook has all of the things, dating, boundaries, family, friendships, how to find friends, how to keep friends, how to deal with anxiety and panic. It's all. all of the things. It's so juicy. I'm so happy. It's out. Oh, I love it. The Science is Duck is still one of my favorite books because you have managed to take such complex terms and make them into something I can understand as a layman. So I think that's why I love what you do.

You give tools. And that's like me. I'm like, I want to give because I think you and I have a very similar experience of, okay, but nobody was actually telling me how to implement this. Everyone's giving me this fucking snake oil salesman of just do this. And you're like, but how and what and where? And can I, I have more questions. Can anyone answer? And that's also why we did the course because the course embodies that same principle backed by science of you really genuinely want to move through this. We'll tell you exactly what you need to do. But here's the thing. We can't make you do it. So Britt, dude, thank you so much for coming on for another week. And I'm just so excited for everyone to get your book and your workbook and start fucking doing the work and

healing and our course. It's just so excited. Thanks for having me.