The Sabrina Zohar Show - 9: Male/Female perspective with Sabrinas big brother and dating coach Joe Zohar

Episode Date: March 24, 2023

This week Sabrina is joined by her big brother Joe here to spill the tea! On this episode Joe and Sabrina dive into the male and female perspective on dating (coming from an avoidant male and anxious female), courtship and bust myths on things like 'does sleeping together first date ruin things?' or is 'not ready for a relationship' an excuse? Want to book a 1-1 session or ask Joe a question? DM him HERE Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another week of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your lovely host. And today I am joined by my big brother. This has been something. His name is Joe and we have been talking about doing this no joke for years. And today we're going to talk about male and female perspectives and we're going to myth bust a lot of stuff that you guys have asked. We went live. We heard from you directly and we want to bust it out.

So here we go. Can't wait. And we'll see you for another great episode. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with all of you. Yeah, stoked to have you part of it. Right now we've got this beautiful community we're growing for anyone who doesn't know.

Joe is also a dating coach and does a lot of expert advice. A lot of stuff I learned is from him and he's listened to it all. So please, in the show notes, we will link his TikTok, his Insta. You can book him for a session. If you love what you hear, follow him. And you're going to be seeing a lot more of him because we're going to start our own podcast. It can be brilliant. It's going to be fucking great.

So Joe, if you want to be. to introduce yourself personally, feel free, share whatever. Sure, yeah. My name is Joe Zohar. I've been a dating coach for going on eight years now. And, you know, it really started a lot kind of coming from New York to L.A. Taking all that have learned from kind of dating in major American cities and, you know, different age ranges, trying everything to see what works and what is compatible with me. And, you know, kind of going through all those experiences, you know, you pick up a thing or two. And, you know, you help one friend, you help another friend.

and then before you know, you kind of fall into something. So it's been a really wonderful wild ride. I'm really excited to kind of take it to the next level with my sister. Yeah, fuck yeah. I think a lot of people don't realize like both of us have past lives. So like that's why the dating stuff became so prevalent now is because it took us a minute. But like I have a clothing line. Joe is a director and has been some of your favorite music videos he has been the director of,

which is so cool. But that is kind of like, you know, we had other passions, but this has become such a passion. We've been talking about this for years. I'm so excited. we finally get to do this. But Joe, let me ask you. Sure.

I know a lot of people are going to wonder, do you feel, you know, anxious, avoid, insecure, whatever? Where did you feel you fell on the spectrum and where do you think, like, let's say the 10 year ago you versus the you now? And if you could share a bit more of your journey, how you got to where you are, and like where you identified and some of the hiccups along the way and how that's affected your dating with. Yeah, no, for sure.

So for me, I was definitely, I would probably, I would classify myself as I was avoiding for a very long time, very much. you know, detach myself. I always tried, I always had to keep things kind of at arm's length. I was one of those, I kept people at arm's length for a long time. It wasn't that I didn't want to be closer. It was for me, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about trying to prove myself. There was something from a career perspective that I wanted to do. There were certain goals and admirations that I had and passions that I had that I really wanted to see through. And for a long time, I felt like I wasn't good enough to go after the kind of woman that I wanted to be with. That was a big part for me that really just kind of

kept me at a distance from finding, from really connecting with anybody. That was a big, that was pretty much all of my entire 20s, was trying to get to the point where I would, wouldn't feel out of place talking to a woman that I connected with or somebody that I potentially see a future. So, you know, so from going through that and, you know, upon a lot of that reflection, you know, you have a lot of conversations, you know, it's good to have good friends and people and good peers to kind of check these things in with. Because it, you realize you're not alone. That's like a big component of it is like, you know, I'm very analytical.

I always tend to over, you know, examine things. It would always. And then I started realizing like, wow, you know, the simple solution tends to be correct in a lot of the ways. And what I mean by that is I had to get out of my own way. Yeah. You know, I always, a lot of times I externalize things. I would be like, well, this person was like this.

And, you know, it was because of this circumstance and the way we met here. And it wasn't until I turned it inwards. And I started being like, well, wait, what kind of energy am I putting? Where am I coming from that is eliciting these responses? Yeah. You know, and then I started to kind of gain this understanding that, you know, when you're coming from a good place and you're like, I generally want to connect with somebody, you know, when you're at that point, you're not coming with a negativity to it.

So even if I had my own baggage or issues, I just started realizing everybody is coming at it from their own place. And you don't know what their backstory is. Yeah. So as soon as I realized that, it took a lot of pressure off because I was like, oh, you know what? It's not that this woman is A, B, C, or D, or she doesn't get X, Y, or Z or she doesn't see. It was like, well, maybe it just didn't work. You know, maybe she's coming at a point in her place where it's this and you know what,

maybe I did this. And I started to try that. I started to try to not overcomplicate it and just accept that. Maybe it just didn't work. And once I started doing that, I started feeling kind of liberated. I was able to go out. I didn't have that anxiety that always followed me after all of these fail dates. You know, I always used to be like, oh, man, I'm failing.

I'm not good enough. I'm not bringing my A game, which, again, there's always a million things that you can overanalyze. But at the end of the day, as soon as I started being like, I need to be secure with who I am. I need to get that chip off my shoulder because whether you realize it or not, you bring that to every encounter you have. And not only romantically, but professionally, personally. So as soon as I kind of started kind of coming around that bend, I started kind of gaining a little

bit of clarity. And, you know, and it felt good. Like, I'll be honest, even the times where I didn't connect with somebody, that's when I knew. The times when I didn't connect with somebody, I was okay to be like, you know what? I wish you the best. You know, this just didn't work out. And I hope you find whatever you're looking for the same way how I am. You took accountability of your dating life.

You took ownership of your dating life. And I think that separates the difference between a boy and a man, truly, of like, you stop blaming everybody else. And same with me. Like, when I transitioned from a girl to a woman, that mindset was it was no longer about everybody else. And it's always everyone else's fucking fault and everybody. And I remember our sister used to say, well, you're the common denominator. And I would get so upset because I'd be like, what, I'm not doing anything. And I'm just showing up. And then you start to realize even the little things like the texting and that anxiety. Like, okay, so here's, I think, a question that we get

all the time about it avoidance. Since I got you here, it's like, when you have a doctor, you're like, since I have you here. Do avoidance not feel when they retreat? You know, you get that. You think because the anxious is so outward. And then the avoidance and retreat. that they don't feel. No, no. We feel very heavily. If anything, we feel just as intensely, it's just we turn it inward. Right.

That's the difference. It's like, you know, anything that comes with like, you know, when you're dealing with anybody who classifies the anxious type in that regard, that's very outward, right? You know what I mean? You're putting it out there. They're seeing it versus those. And for me, you know, I had to try to identify where was that coming from. Right.

And for me. Yeah. And for me, you know, and I started realizing that a lot of men felt this way. Like this is when I started being like, interesting was it's not that we don't want to care or we don't want to do that. It's just a lot of times you just feel like I'm not good enough to be with this person. And in order to do that, I need to retreat and get those ducks in row before I could put myself out there. And it's like, and where does that stem from? Low self-esteem and security.

It's a lot of insecurity. And like that's, I think, the biggest difference between the anxious avoidant is like one's not villainized. One's not better than the other. Yes. It's purely all it means is your nervous system is out of, is dysregulated. I go out, you go in. But no one is right or wrong. And I feel like avoidance have such a bad rep of they don't care.

They just retreated. Why aren't you listening to me? And it's like, just because someone retreats backwards versus you going out doesn't make one better divorce. Right. Yeah. No. And there is no right or wrong.

It's just how people process. Right. Like that's like a main thing I think to understand is there is no, well, like I'm this way. So that's the right way. And if he's not that way, then that's wrong. It's like, no, there's just different modalities. different strokes for different folks, as they say. And, you know, Serena, you touched on something that I think was really interesting that I think

actually, you know, the difference between a boy and a man, right? These are, this is something I really harp on whenever I'm talking to clients, whenever I'm engaging with people. I'm like, look, you know, the difference between a boy man and a girl woman, right? So for so long, I was still a boy. And what I mean by that, you know, I was a boy going after a woman. And I cannot tell you the quickest that that. will never work. A woman will not want to deal with those kind of childish notions.

These chip on the shoulder. He doesn't know who he is. He's not comfortable within his own skin. You know, there's always something to prove. And as soon as I started realizing that, I was like, oh, okay, that was where when I did go, you know, as an avoided, I did do that retreat. And then once I kind of realized that when I stepped back into the limelight, so to speak, and I was putting myself out there, I finally, once I made that kind of, I crossed that Rubicon. so to speak. And a lot of it, and by the way, I really have to preface this, this has nothing to do with age. It is not age dependent. I know a lot of 40 plus year old boys. And I know some late 20, you know, or mid late 20 year old men who really have crossed that Rubicon. So it's not age dependent.

What it is is your own being comfortable with your sense of self. Because that's when I realized the things that I thought weren't working, it was, oh, this is just who I am. Like I happen to be a very energetic. I'm a very passionate person. It's like I'm also very consoling and understanding and empathetic. But sometimes I just started realizing it's like, oh, they're just some women who can't handle that energy. Yeah. And that's not their fault. And that's not my fault. I don't need to change who I am because it's not coming from, it's just who I am. And you start to realize like, oh, this was the thing that made me very good at my job, but sometimes it doesn't make you the best in your personal social life. Yes. And it's about trying to figure out how to manage that and to

can, you know, walk that tightrope where it's like, ah, I still have that energy and that passion, but it's not coupled with that anxiety where when I'm putting it out there, they're like, which to me, when you combine anxiety and passion like that, you get neurosis. You get neurosis. Which we know all too well from our mother. Yeah, you know what I mean? And that kind of neuroticism, really, that is a huge turnoff for women. They're just not putting, they're usually not putting, they're not picking that up.

Yeah. And I was going to ask you, like an interesting question. I think there's one of the biggest thing I think in dating. with self-awareness around actions of a reaction and how you come off. Because I think when you're talking about boys versus men and girls versus women, I'd love to hear your perspective. I'm like, I know for me at least,

like as somebody who is a grown-ass fucking woman now, like I honestly, I take no shit. Like I know exactly what I want. I'm very, very clear. So to me, when I would get that avoidance or even the anxiety, I was very turned off quickly. But I think a lot of our listeners who really struggle with anxiety,

maybe you can put it into perspective to them, like how that is to receive it on the man's side because I think there was a misunderstanding of, well, this is who I am and this guy doesn't accept it and why doesn't you just do it when it's like, no, baby, you've got to work on your shit because how it's received to men. Like, for instance, we went on a date and I didn't hear from him and then he ghosted me and they came back and I told him a piece of my mutt and it's like, or I asked for reassurance after a first date and it's like, how does that land on the fucking guy when they say he never contacted me again? It's like, why?

That's a great question. So let's try to take it, you know, because there was kind of a multiple tiers. There's a lot to it. But you know me. I always give a lot. So let's unpack it. Yeah. No, no. Let's unpack it. So I mean, you know, one of the first things in terms of that I have told mostly this is something that I usually have to queue in to a lot of my female clients when they're like, hey, what is it? Why am I not getting that call back? That's always the main question. The first question is I'm not hearing back from this person. Why is that? Consistently. Consistently, right? Or from, hey, you know, I've been going on a lot of first dates and it's. seems to be going well. Like I had a great time. Everything was going well, but I'm not hearing back from them. Yeah. So that's the most common one. Yeah. So let's start there. And I would say for me, I've been surprised at this where most of the time, it's because a man doesn't think that a woman

likes him. Right. It doesn't, you know. They're not mind readers. Yeah, we're not mind readers, you know, and here's a thing. So the main thing that I tell most of my family clients is that men are visual people. We're visual creatures. We go off visual cues. We don't necessarily go off of words. nice as a support to kind of confirm, but most men are visual. So it's like, what do we look for? It's like, I know I look for smiles. Like, is she smiling at me? Is she engaging and asking questions? You know, is she following up. A big one is bouncing the ball back. Yeah. Somebody cracks a joke. It's like, give something. You know, those are opening a body language. You know what I mean? A slight bit of physical, you know, contact, just like a little something that just says, hey, I'm not

afraid of you, you know, entering my territorial bubble. And honestly, I've been suggesting that to clients now since you've brought it up, even when we were talking about things. Because, like, we're going to do our own little master class. Like, we're super excited. We've got so many fun things planned. Yeah. So stay tuned. But we even, like, I've started to even say that, like, well, I'll get the, I went on

this day and I'm like, I don't know if I'm not into him. And I'm like, did he touch you? Did you have any kind of physical? No, I just wasn't. I'm like, touch him. Yeah. See, let him touch your shoulder. Yeah.

Do something because a lot of the times I might, I think I'm in, even my own boyfriend. No, yes. And something like, you know, a lot. So I'll get some pushback from female clients. They'll be like, but, you know, well, I don't want to, I don't want to give the wrong impression or I don't want to, you know, I'm not trying to sleep with this guy on the first date. I'm not, you know, I want to take things slow, you know, and being on more on the conservative front, which is totally fine. Yeah. But one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

Yeah, it's not mutually exclusive. It's not a mutually, you know, like one of the main things that we really have to learn when we're engaging with people, especially romantically is that sometimes you have to have two thoughts in your head at the same time. Yeah. You know what I mean? it's a big component is like, ah, okay, it's okay to be like, hey, I want to hold off on certain types of, you know, whether it's certain sexual activities or whatever you want. It's like, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that you can't be warm. You can't be engaging. You can't be showing something. Something. You know, they'll be like, oh, but, you know, I don't want to give that first impression.

It's like, you're not going to give a bad impression. It's a man. That's what he wants to see. He wants to see a woman who's comfortable in her own skin. And another thing to piggyback. on that is since men are very visual in this way, we pick up on a lot of like, if you're bringing in past experiences to current, to current situations, you know what I mean? I've had some where I've been like, oh, okay, how did the date go? And they'd be like, well, you know, I started off. I told him right off the bat. Like, I'm not going to say, I was just, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's how you started the interaction? Right. I was like, oh, well, there you go. It's like, you're already setting boundaries and limitations before you even had the chance to interact.

A man won't need to know them, right? He already does. He already understands like, hey, a woman is going to do what she feels like wanting to do. And a man will be receptive to that and want to pursue it. But when you set those kind of parameters, it just immediately says, ah, she's bringing in something. She's judging me by past experiences. And no man wants to feel that way. No man wants to be like, I'm walking into somebody else's, you know, slipstream, so to speak.

What's interesting is I heard one quote once, many moons ago, of life on a first date, a guy knows he wants to fuck you, but he's trying to figure out if he wants to date you. And a girl knows she wants to date you and she's trying to figure out she wants to fuck you. And I think I was like, that's actually a really well-put, interesting perspective of like how the dynamics are on dates of like it takes, men are, like you said, visual creatures. It's like, it takes them time to, that's why I also think this like, they'll know immediately. I'm like, maybe just the physical. Well, right, yeah.

And you also, so with men being visual in this way, we're like, also, again, if you're dealing with a man, he knows who he is. Yeah. And he wants a woman. who knows who she is. When you're dealing with somebody who's confident and is assure of themselves, and they're like, wow, I find this person attractive. And of course, we're talking about healthy, regular males, right? It's like people who have, you know, any sort of mental conditions or sort, you know, psychosis of some kind. It's like, those are different cases. And we're not here

to analyze. But yeah, we're not here to analyze. I'm just talking about a healthy man, right? Not a boy. A boy is still figuring his stuff out. We're talking about a man who's like, ah, he's independent, he's communicative, he's setting plans, he's being direct, he's clear, he has, you know, he's putting his intentions out there, you know, whether or not they're full on like the whole diatribe, but you're like, okay, he's making an effort. That's a big part. Effort equals interest. So, you know, a man wants a woman who will see that and who will acknowledge because that's one of the main signs. So you're talking in terms of attraction. So it's like they're smiling, there's all these things. But it's also the acknowledgement that you see where I'm coming from.

It's like, ah, you're understanding that my disposition is like friendly and cordial to you. And it's like, hey, we've had the conversation where, by the way, it is equal part men and women to have that conversation so you can suss out who this person is. Right. If all you're doing is having surface level conversation and you're not digging deep, which you can totally do on a first day. Yeah. I love to tumble down the rabbit hole. I welcome the question. You know what I mean?

It's just like, I'm, what are we trying to do? We're not trying to waste time here. And those are some of the key characteristics if you're trying to tell like, how could I tell the difference if he's a. man or a boy, man wants to get to it. Yeah. He's trying to get to it. And that's also, and it's like, so when you circle back on that from the sexual component, also a man will not get into a relationship, at least from my understanding, if there isn't

sexual compatibility. Totally. Because we've been down that road before and we know that sex is the healing, you know, perfectly healthy couples to have arguments or to get into a disagreement or to, you know, to have things where you have to talk things through and maybe you get a little bit upset. Maybe somebody gets angry is perfectly. normal. That happens all the time. The way that you stop that anger from turning into resentment is through that sexual healing, it's through that sexual compatibility. Totally. And through that, because that's where

you both really feel seen in that way. You're the most, it's the most intimate act you can have. So, if a man isn't sure of that and it's like, okay, this woman wants to make me wait three months, you know, before that, most guys are just out because they're like, you know, anybody, you know, if you're talking about a man 35 to 45-ish, whatever your range is, we don't. We don't. don't have time to waste, just like you ladies don't have time to waste. There is an equality on that front. Now, you guys have particular biological urges and needs that are very, very specific and different, but a man also has life needs. And it's like, when a man is ready to be like, I want a woman to step into my life, they want to be seen. They want to be like, ah, she acknowledges me and she

sees that, I'm not just one of these other fuckboys or one of these other guys that's just trying to take advantage. It's like, oh, here's a guy that's showing up. I can't tell you how warm and welcoming it is if a guy feels that from a woman on a first day. Want to go electric without sacrificing fun? That's the Volkswagen ID4. All-electric and thoughtfully designed to elevate your modern lifestyle. The Volkswagen ID4 is fun to drive with instant acceleration that makes city streets feel like open roads,

plus a refined interior with innovative technology always at your fingertips. The all-electric ID4, you deserve more fun. Visit VW.com. to learn more. S-U-V-W, German-engineered for all. And, yeah, I mean, I think those are all such great tip bits to take away. Like, these are tips to have and implement. And I think this kind of goes into, like,

we can even touch on one of the myths of, like, when you're sleeping together. I mean, at least I know for me, I'm very sex positive. I always say, you do what feels good for you. I personally don't agree with baiting sex over a man's head. I don't think you dangle a carrot and say, well, I'm going to make you wait so that you earn it. or I'm going to make you wait so that to make sure you're not going to ghost me. That is games. That's childhood shit.

But for me, at least, being a grown-ass woman who respects and loves myself, I'm a very sexual creature. I am. It's super important for me to make sure that the person's compatible. And, you know, it's one of, you know, the universe's most intense practical jokes, right? Men reach their sexual peaks, you know, in adolescent 18, around that range where women it's later on. So, you know, the more female clients I talk to, it's like they feel the need to put that conservative front up because they feel like that's what they need to attract a good guy.

Right. And it's against what they actually want and crave. They're like, no, I want that, but I'm afraid. And it's like, okay. And this is usually where the root of any talks that I have or anytime we're going to go further down is like, look, we're not going to talk about other people. We're going to talk about you and what we can do to make you the strongest, most healthy, independent, clear thinking human being there is, right, who's work through whatever there is so that you're coming, you're coming to this interaction clean. You're coming to this with a clean slate and you're smiling and you're like, I'm ready to receive. And then when you do that, your radar is way more attuned to the guy who's like, oh, this guy's just trying to get me

to get me in bed. Like when you're in that healthy place, when any woman is in that healthy place, you'll immediately be able to see it. You know what I mean? And those are the times. That's usually when you know you've kind of grown in that way is when you meet that guy and you're like, you know what, a year, two, three, X amount of years ago, I would have fallen for them. And this time, I didn't. That's such a clear. For me, it was such a clear sign of growth. One, I stopped reacting and I learned to respond. But two, I started to realize the triggers that were triggering me were no longer affecting me. And on top of it, when I would see, like, I was even talking to our mom earlier and I was going in and in about this guy from the past. And I had such a very clear.

and concise understanding as to why I was after that person. Why was that person even coming up into my head as a human? Of course, things like that will happen. And I was so clear about being like, you know what? Yeah, wow, I dated dad. He was exactly the same. It was the charming. And I knew my sign of growth that when I saw that,

I wasn't running for the hills, but I knew for myself before I met tech guy, this is not going to align with the future that I want because the behavior isn't already off the bad align. Because I already kind of, I could figure. I was reading between the lines because I was so astute and understanding of other people. But because of that, candidly speaking, tech I and I hooked up on the first day. Because to us, both of us, sex was really, really important.

I don't condone everybody go do that. I'm not being like, oh, yes, go and make that happen. But my point with it was that that doesn't deter a man. Yeah, that doesn't disqualify a relation. Just because you did that, it's not like, oh, I can't believe I did that. It's like, no, a man, like, I'll pick you back on that. I every long-term relationship, which for me, you know, at least a year minimum, any year-two relationship that I've had, which I've had several, has always started where it's like,

oh, right, we connected physically, sexually, whether it was on date one through three. Right. It usually didn't because that person knew, they were like, oh, we didn't have any questions about each other. We didn't question each other's intentions because we were both grounded in who we were. And that is the most attractive. And like, so if you're coming from that place and. you're secure. It's like just because there is that, it's like that will make a man want to be with you

even more. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was great. We had a great. And I think, yeah, that's what. And if not, you're also going to save time because if that sexual compatibility is not there, just because you do have sex doesn't guarantee anything. Now, if it's not working for the two of you, it's better to find out sooner than later because then that's when more emotional pain gets through versus just being like this. And then if your radar is attuned, at least you're like, hey, I'm sharing this experience with somebody that is not a douche. Well, and I think, you know, I think that also stems down of, like, of doing the work on yourself. Like, listen, if you, because there are a lot of women that when they're physical, that's it.

It's like instant attachment, instant connection. And it's like, then, yes, listen, you follow your gut and your body and you do what feels good for you. But you don't do it for the other person. You're not results driven. And I think that is so much of the toxic advice that we have. Everything is, how do I make him do this for me? How do I get him to do that instead of how do I follow what feels good for me and is an alignment of what is that I want?

Because when I love tech guys after that first date, my thought was, yeah, I may never see this guy again. And you know what? That's okay because I'm a grown-ass adult to understand I did what felt right for me in the moment and I knew he didn't owe me anything versus, oh my God, and now he's, I didn't go into insecure brain and you know what that changed? When I didn't ruminate in those shitty negative thoughts that I always did, my behavior changed. The way I interacted with him changed.

I didn't come at it of super insecure and, oh my God, do you still like me because we did this? No, I came at it as I have confidence in who I am. I know my worth. I know my value. I know what the fuck I bring to the table. And I am not scared to act on that authentically. And that was able, because I did that, I removed so much of the pressure of the you owe me something after this. And I just let the relationship grow organically.

And that right there, those are just some of the subconscious turn-ons. that will just drive, like a man will be so attracted to that. They will be so attracted to, wow, okay, she's in tune with her feelings and her needs. Yeah. And, you know, it's like, you know, and even if it's didn't go anywhere, I'm not vilified. You know, it's like that. All of those things, it's like, wow, okay, this person's coming from a healthy perspective. And you have to understand, too, a lot of these things, you have to toss some of these

societal taboos out the window. Yeah, which ones do you think are the ones I need to go? Well, like I said, I think personally, you know, the, oh, if I, you know, sleeping together They're on the, like, too soon. Is that it's like, you know. So that's a myth. We're myth busting right now. I think that's a myth.

You know, it's like, it only, it's like, look, if you're looking for something more deeper, right, than just in, then it's like, okay, is your radar tune? Like, are you attracting and meeting the kind of guy that also wants that? And you can usually tell. There are signs to tell. What are they? I think. So, yes, being very direct and like open is a big part.

You know, it's like they shouldn't shy away from questions about. their past or about who they are or, you know, it's like dive into a little bit about the family dynamics. How is there a relationship with their family and loved ones? These are just some simple cues. It's not, and any guy who's like, this feels invasive or it feels like I'm on an interview or like some job interview, it's like, look, don't have the pen and paper. This is supposed to be happening over natural dialogue and discourse, right? Through some jokes, through some playfulness. It's like, I love the question game. What else are we there to do other than for you to find out who I am and for me to find out who you are. And I'll preface, when you're sharing things, it's not about trauma

dumping. You're not like, oh my God, when I was seven, my father left, what it is like how I operated is like on the first date, if somebody will ask me, you know, what's your dynamic with your father? So at the current time, we're not speaking. I might, I'm not going to go into the fucking details. My response is, listen, like every family, we have our own dynamic. And as I get to know you, I'd love to share more, as the comfort grows. Well, right. And by the way, part of what is revealing to that, to the other person that you're with, whether male or female is seeing, okay, does this person crack when they talk about it? Right.

Like, can they manage their emotions? Can they manage their emotions? Is bringing up anything like this? Do you get the glossy kind of glazed eyes and the, they kind of shut down? Because then you're like, okay, there's something that isn't worked through or healthy. It's like, I know if anybody asks me any questions, I've been through a lot in my life. And I'm happy to talk about any of it. And it's like, I don't hide any of it.

A woman can ask me anything she wants. And I encourage that because I'm like, you know what? if any of the experiences that I've gone through in my life because they didn't fit into whatever particular mold you thought are a turnoff or this, then it's like, okay. Like that you'll only discover that later. You know what I mean? So it's like I'm not into pretense. I'm not into that.

And I think a big one which you touched on, which we really, it kind of really all ties into this thing, which is when you're going for like a result oriented. Yeah. Engagement. Yeah. Right. Like if you're going into this being like, I'm looking for my one. And this and like, you know, if this guy doesn't check this box, check this, it's like, ladies, burn your checklist right now.

That's the number one thing. Like I always, that's probably right after like, okay, you know, finding out a little bit more about them and being like, what is some of the interest. My next statement is to burn that checklist. And then sometimes I'll get back like, but wait, you know, I want somebody who is empathetic and, you know, is sensitive and can be, it's like, oh, no, no, no, you know, and has good morals. it's like, right, values are different than a checklist. Like, absolutely. Like, you should be with somebody that shares your values. But when you're approaching, when, you know, and I know so many people,

so many women have come to me being like, this is how they assess their potential partner is, does he make a certain amount? Right. You know, where does his family from? Where, you know, what's his current job? The kind of car he drives. You know, like, where does he vacate? Things like that where I'm like, oh, man, you're just already.

And my favorite part is most of the clients I work with, they'll come to me and tell me that. And then their response is, and then I got it. And I was fucking miserable. Because it's shallow shit versus my thing is you have your non-negotiables and your boundaries. Because if you focus on not how do you want to feel about them, but how do you feel with them? So that you, I want to feel seen, heard and understood. I want to feel respected. I want to feel reciprocated.

I want to feel that this person is consistent. Those are actionable measures. And the only potential that you should be fucking dating right now is not will, does he have the potential to be a great boyfriend when I'm done with him or if he just opened up or if he did this? But you know what the bit, does he have the potential to the only potential I want you to date is if this man, maybe he's in school. Maybe he's not in the place of his career that he wants to be in, but he works his ass off. He's driven. He's goal oriented. And you know what?

I can see he has the potential to grow into an even better man than he already is. is not does he have the potential to become a fucking man. That is when people get, that's where you get into a situation ship. And that's when you get into those dicey situations is when you keep looking at somebody and projecting onto them what you want them to be, but not accepting where they fucking are right now. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette.

with a flame thrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. Most people don't know what they want until they see it.

It's about being open for the possibility to experience. And if you're coming into it with a checklist, then you're not open to what you don't know. And that is usually, and that's why, you know, And we see that all over the place. There are examples of people not knowing what they want in every facet of society. No. And sometimes, but the universe, God, whatever, the higher power, all of this stuff, at the end of the day, they bring you what you need, not what you want all the time.

Because we, it's like, I love Jay Shetty. He always talks about karma, not in the sense where if you do wrong and wrong will be done to you. He's like, no, karma is when you don't learn your fucking lessons. And it keeps repeating over and over, which, you know, I think we strayed away from this question that I asked. But as somebody who maybe had struggled with a little bit of avoidance and now is somebody moving into secure, when you meet these women and you feel that anxiety or you start to sense that anxiety, I think it's important for our listeners to understand how other people receive them because I didn't. As somebody with, I had crippling anxiety, Joe, you can attest to this.

When I say I would psychoanalyze every aspect of everything. That's why I'm like, oh, no, I know exactly every thought process you're having because I was her. And I didn't understand until I think our sister mentioned. It one day she was like, I can't fucking be around you. Your anxiety radiates off of you. And I didn't get that. Yeah. You know, there's something that I usually, you know, this is a little adage, so to speak,

that I'll tell them like, look, you know, because sometimes there's also a denial component, right? So it's like I'll say this. It's like, well, you know, well, like I said, most people, they want to externalize, which is why I don't really live in that space. So if you're ever going to talk with me or, you know, I know Sabrina really shares that as well. We come from the same place on that. it's like we're not going to be bashing others. We're not going to be like, yeah, all men, women, they suck.

There's that. That's not what it is. What it is is about getting you to the space where you feel confident and secure in who you are. Because everything else will open up from that. Right. But I can imagine, though, when you're dating, can you sense the anxiety? Absolutely. Right.

Oh, it's palpable. Girls don't realize. You don't realize the whole like, oh, he ghosted me. And it's like, well, first of all, you didn't ghost you after one date. That's just somebody not being interested. But you'll get that often. And it's like, I don't think they understand how it comes up. I didn't understand how it came off until I was, I, you know what I mean?

Like, until I had that awareness around it of realizing, oh shit. Right. You know, you wanting that daily texting when somebody, you don't know this person. It's like, that was just calling my anxiety. That wasn't because I genuinely wanted to talk to this person. I didn't fucking know them. Yeah. Well, and, and look, you know, a man, when a man is finally ready to be like,

I'm ready to receive and I'm in it because that's where I'm at, you know, so it's like, I can, I'm glad I can actually come from this because it's like, I've gone through a lot where it's like I am looking for my forever person, so to speak, or somebody that can build a life with now. I've come around on that where I'm like, oh, I'm ready. I've learned the lessons. And I've been open for that for a while now. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to settle or that I can't be happy without it.

And that's usually that's a very clear sign of, ah, then you're in a good space to be in a relationship. Correct. You know, it's like, can you go, can you do things on your own? Are you comfortable within your own skin, listening to your own voices? to be like, you know what, I can go for a walk by myself and be a super peace. I can go eat alone or I can go do something where it's like, you know, because at the end of the day, I'd rather be alone and happy than in bad company. Oh, so it's like.

Our grandma used to say that. That's what, yeah, our, you know, and most men feel that way too. So now let's apply that to that anxiety when you're feeling that, right? You were like, oh, what is it? What is it like when a guy senses that? Well, usually the response, a man usually has, they can really like the woman. they can really be like, oh, wow, she's fantastic. But if that is an impediment, usually a man is like, I don't know if she's ready to be a

woman to a man. Right. Because that's what a man wants. He wants. Because look, we've grown up one of the things that I truly believe, which is why I've really been ready to receive like a wonderful, like have somebody in my life that is so special that I can just love and devote all of my attention and my passions to is because it makes you a better man.

Yeah. Like that's, you know, there's that saying behind every good man is a better woman. And I find that to be very true. So when a man is finally ready to be at that point, that's what they're looking for. They're like, can she be a good, you know, is she comfortable with herself to be like, ah, she can be a woman to me in the way that is healthy and is supportive. Which goes into proximity and timing. Our mom has been saying that since we were fucking kids.

And as an adult, like, I actually had a client I was working with. And she shared her experience. And I was like, you are the epitome of proximity and timing. And she's like, I get it. I understand what you're saying. And I was like, just because you met somebody at a. different time of your life, y'all weren't ready for each other. A year, two years, three years later doesn't mean that you guys need to reconnect. It could have been if you had met a different

time, maybe that would have worked. But it's like, I don't believe in wrong person or wrong time, right person. I believe it's, if the right person means it's the right time as well. Right. And I think that's something super important that like a lot of people internalize that just because you want to date, the guy doesn't want it. Or if the guy says, I'm not ready for a relationship or whatever, that it's them. And this bullshit if you wanted to, he would. But I don't think people understand the compassion and nuance that goes into what being in a relationship means. And if a man you gave, can you give your pool example of the depth when you're dealing with somebody you had said, like when you were dealing with like a fuck boy, he only knows how to go to here. Right. Yeah. So

it's like you think about like this when there's that practice, right, we have experience. So when you meet these kind of, you know, these fuck boy types, right? For lack of a better term, it's like they've only gone, you know, they've only been playing in the children's end of the pool. Right. You know what I mean? It's like they don't know what it means to be like, oh, the grass. isn't underneath my feet anymore. I am now, it's like if I don't do the work to stay above board, I will drown and I will sink to the bottom. And that's why those boys stay.

That's why those guys, they stay in that area because they repeat it over and over again. And that's why they become masters at it. That's why you're like, man, this guy comes off so charming. And if your radar isn't attuned to be able to sniff that out, that's how you get got. That's how those guys survive. They survive off of like, oh, let me go after the girls who think they're

You know what I mean? Those people who were... They can smell it. They can smell it a mile away. So... It's like being a working dog. They know what they're looking for. And that's why I'll get a lot of girls.

But he was so great and he was so amazing and he was so great. And then he completely like off. It's like, yeah, because you asked for depth. You wanted him to go into the deeper part of the pool and the dude didn't know how the fuck to do it or wasn't ready, willing, or able to. It's not about if he wanted to. I want to do a lot of things in life that I don't do. And I'm sure you two.

I'm sure you've met amazing women that you're like... Absolutely. Yeah. that could have been true. No, absolutely. You know, it's like, could I have been married and have kids? it's like, yes, but would I perhaps have been happy in that? It's like there's a reason why I didn't go continue going down that road with whoever it was where you have that potential. So I mean, at the end of the day, when somebody is comfortable with who they are and they're

in that space ready to receive. Yeah. That's when they say it just happens. You know what I mean? That's when they're usually like, oh, it's like, what does that mean? It's like because when you're putting that vibe out to somebody, they're like, wow, I find this person attractive. And by the way, most people aren't as analytical as we are.

So it's like we may be able to go in these experience and kind of, you know, our brains are actively reflecting in real time. But most and most guys, it takes them a little bit, which is why sometimes you can walk away being like, oh, we had a great time and then, you know, then you walk away and you take a break. And the next day, it's like, oh. Processing. It's processing. Like you had said, it's like sometimes the light, the music, the fun, you're having a good time,

you're having the banter. And I've had that. I'll go home and go, I, you know. Maybe I didn't. You start to replay things they said and you're like, never mind. And like also too, I had a good time. Doesn't mean the other person had a good time. Absolutely.

And look, and that's why one of the main things and it goes with the whole burning the checklist concept because on that checklist too is like he's got a wine and dine me and take me at dinner. It's like, you know what? How about the first day you just go meet him for coffee and you look like a person. Yeah. I mean, like we know like some people are evenly against that. You know, it's I always say I'm like find out what the baseline is. Yeah.

you know great hey i just met we just had a casual conversation this is what she normally wears and looks like you're not all done up you're not all this it's like if a guy doesn't want to talk to you after that it's like well then you're seeing what they're in it for right so a big part of it is that you have to set yourself up for success i love a vibe check yeah it's just you have to set yourself up for success and it's the same thing i come from a film production background and it's like you know nothing is guaranteed no like just because i get there and i have all the talent and the actors and It doesn't mean it's going to be good, but you do everything you can to set yourself up for success. You do all that work before you show up.

You do your pre-pruding. You've gone through everything. And you know what? When you show up, you're ready to throw it all out the door and be in the moment. I would translate that into that. And you see them a bit more for who they are. You don't look at the nice car that they picked you up in and the big expensive restaurant they took you to. And then all of a sudden you're going into the idea of them and you're romanticizing them and you're all this.

And that's why you get so fucking caught up after a first day because they check some, bullshit boat like some chum of your bullshit checklist versus this is raw and authentic. I always do like a hike, a coffee, a smoothie, a workout. I'm like, see me for who I am. Yep. Because that's the, I want you to accept me fully for who I am and baby, I will keep getting better as we're together. But at least baseline, like you said, acceptance of who I am authentically is the way that we will actually, then we'll go on a great date. Then we will progress. Then we will keep going. But it doesn't need to be this grandiose dinner. And if that is how you're, perception. If you think a high quality, high value woman only go out to a nice dinner,

babe, that is when I would challenge you to start figuring out, why is that the way that it validates your fucking value? Because you know what it sounds like? He sounds like a teenager trying to convince yourself that you are fitting into your mom's shoes and you don't. People who are classy rarely have to say they're classy. Right. That's, you know what I mean? It's one of those things. So, and I mean, you know, and those are some of the ways, too, where it's like it's also, you know, big parts. This is one other thing, too, that was really funny that I had one client, they didn't even realize this. And they're like, man, I'm getting all these great first dates.

And I'm not hearing. And it's like interesting. And then I would ask like the kind of guys they're going after and who they're attracted to. And it's like, you know, they're showing me these kind of Uber Minch type guys, you know, or it's like, okay, clearly they're these are the type of men who are getting a lot of attention. Yes.

And sometimes I had to take it back. I'm like, okay, show me your profile. And I'll look at the profile. I'm like, oh, no wonder. And there's like, there's a number of things. So it's like that will be, that's something we're going to go into a deep later about analyzing profiles. So if interviewer curious, definitely hit us up because there's so many things.

We're going to do a masterclass on dating profiles. I was like, man, once you go, it's just impossible to unpack. But, you know, there's also that where sometimes you show up and you're like, oh, this isn't what I thought. Yeah. There's like a baby, you know, I can't make it. Sometimes it is like that where I'm like looking at the pictures. I'm like, okay, we got all these crazy angles and we've got all this stuff, you know,

you're hidden, you're obscured. It's like, right. okay, you have to also sometimes realize, like, maybe a guy shows up, it's like, oh, this isn't the person who I thought I was going to meet. And the same thing with women, it's the same thing. How many times I've heard women be like, oh, I saw these pictures and then he showed up and he has way less hair. He's, he's, he's, he's way, you know, he's got, you know, he put it on.

So, you know, all of those things where it's like, right. So, and because I've heard that, it's like, oh, why, why don't, and then I look at the guy's profile. I'm like, these are pictures from 10 years ago. Yeah. It doesn't, it's a bit. So, you know, so we're going to get to that. number, exactly. So I just want to say the point about kind of touching on some of these things is to show that there's a million reasons that aren't even necessarily personal to who you are in that moment. Very rarely are they actually personal. That's like most of the time. So we're getting down to the end. So we're going to go through a real quick lighting round. Guys, this is just part one. Joe's going to come back for a part two in two weeks. And we're going to have him on that podcast again. We want to see what you guys want to hear. What information you found valuable, what information do you want them to touch on more? Leave the comments in the section of the podcast.

episode and let us know or message us and give us some feedback. We love it. Yeah, because we know a lot of the things that we just talked about can be radically unpacked even further. Completely. But, you know, the goal of this was to kind of throw out a number of ideas. Just to kind of get the ball rolling, this is the first time that we decided to do this. So, you know, if you've got questions, if something did, maybe something didn't ring true, ask us why it didn't ring true. We're happy to elaborate and qualify. We never want to do. Look, here, this is one of the things. You can stop talking to us if ever, if when we say something or give a piece of advice and you ask us, oh, where is that coming from? We're unable to answer.

Correct. So just know that. It's like usually the things we're saying it comes from some kind of qualified place. And it happens. People misunderstand things. They are not understanding. So we really encourage probe deeper and don't be afraid to ask the questions. Because like in dating, you don't, your, dating is not a place for imagination.

No. You know what I mean? Creative. You go to the movies. You go to the arts. Oh, yes. let your imagination fill in the blanks and takes it. When you're dating somebody, you do not want to be in that,

oh, well, does he think this or am I doing this? It's like, no, we want. So those are just some of the things. So it's like always, you know, it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to dig deeper. And yeah, this is just to get the ball rolling. I like how that, the message of the podcast also seeps into your dating world of like, yeah, it's your life too.

Okay, so let's do some really quick. Yeah, lightning round stuff. We're going to do some myths and I would like you to just give me a quick snippet. Sure. So myth, sleeping together on the first date, that'll ruin things and you won't have relationship with them. That's not, that's not a necessary, that's not a sacrosanct law. The reason why it will either work because you guys connected and there's that compatibility or it won't because they didn't feel that sexual compatibility or there was a hindrance

or there was something there. Because if a guy feels that, oh, you know, something that brings me pleasure or joy isn't well received. Because look, everybody has their thing. And so many people are afraid to share what their thing is. Oh, for fear of embarrassment or that. It's like, Again, boy, man, girl, woman. A man and a woman will not be averse to being like, oh, they will welcome it. They will be like, wow, the whole purpose of it is to please each other, is to acts of service physically to each other, not just for yourself. So, you know, you want to know those things.

So I don't think it's an absolute deal breaker. I just think there's some shades on that. Totally. I mean, there's always so many shades, especially on that sleeping on the first date. Like I said, you don't want to do it. Don't fucking do it. But I wouldn't look at it as, oh, that's why. why he didn't want to be with me.

It's because I slept with him on the first day. And it was easy. No, it's the dude probably wasn't going to be with you regardless, but he got late. Right. But he got exactly. So, okay, do guys read dating profiles? Oh, that's a great one. I know I absolutely do.

And one of the main reasons why I do is because that's the only way to kind of spark an initial piece of genuine engagement, right? I can't count how many female clients I have where they're just like, oh my God, all I get are the like, what's up? Hey, it's like, you're not giving them anything. Like, hey, babe, you know what I mean? Like those things like, what's, What you up to this, you know?

And it's like, all right, well, let's dig in. And I'll look at the profile. I'm like, you know, we'll get generic things like the riskiest thing I've ever done, moving to California. Or, you know, I know I'll fall for you if you trip me. It's like these generic things where it's like, okay, as a man, I'm like, I don't know where to go from this. All like complete, like I've seen some girls.

One girl asked me, she's like, why do I just get guys I want to hook up with me? Like, it's not what I want. So let me see your profile. Everything was lingerie photos, and I was like, dude, you're putting that out of thing. No, no, which, by the way, there have been a lot of research things on this, and it's like shirtless photos and, you know, shirtless photos of men don't necessarily resonate with women. Women don't connect with like, oh, hey, I'm flexing. But men were visual.

So it's like when we do see that, that sparks the attraction thing. But that's not enough for me. That, you know, look, being attractive is a good way to get your foot in the door, but it doesn't keep you in the meeting. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like. It's not all you have. Yeah, because then when you see that, you're like, oh,

oh, okay, the only thing I can comment on is your physical appearance. And now, if that's what you're interested in, well, then you're getting the result you want. If you're not interested in that, then it's like flesh out some of that profile. Because one of the things that I'll always say is like, look, nobody will care more about your dating life than you. So it's like, if you're not putting your effort in, if you're not putting in the effort, it comes off. Yeah. All right. So next question.

Do you think it's an excuse when a guy says he's not ready for a relation? Well, no, what it is is he's just saying he's usually not ready for a relationship with you. Okay, yeah. Which is why I can't count how many times, you know, we've gotten, oh, you know, he said he wasn't ready for a relationship. Then three weeks later, he's with somebody else, right? Is that not one of the most common things I've heard? And it's like, right, that brings us back to like, okay, he wasn't, he wasn't vibe. Like most men, we do want that.

But we want to feel the things that we were talking about. earlier. Oh, wow, is this woman grounded? Is she seeing me for who I am? Is she receptive? Is she open to that? And it's like, that will get a guy to change his mind. Because most guys, they generally, or at least for me, for avoidance, you are like, I am always kind of walking that line. Like, you know, I don't really know anything. But man, when I find that woman that sparks my interest, I'm all in. But that tune will change in a second. Which I hate to break it to you. That's classic avoidance. And avoidance usually do that because it keeps the reality further away from them actually having to do it.

And that's where I'll go like, I think, listen, at the end of the day, yeah, if you meet someone that's amazing, but you could be the queen of Shiba. If you and your mind don't want a relationship, which a lot of those dudes will be honest with you. They'll tell you off the bat, I just want to hook up. That's not an invitation for you to be like, I'm going to prove your mind, challenge accepting. Yeah. But if a dude, if you've been dating somebody and then maybe a month and they're like, oh, I'm not ready for a relationship.

It's like, babe, he doesn't know how else to tell you that he doesn't want to be with you and he's trying to be polite. And sometimes you don't immediately know. I don't want to like underplay the fact that it's like, A man wants to give it a chance. So sometimes they're like, oh, why did you wait a month? You know, it's like, well, because if we like you like things are going well, it's like sometimes we want, you don't want to just kind of dine and dash, so to speak.

So you're, you know, you want to give it a little bit of time. So these things are natural. All right. Last question. Does a guy liking photos on Insta, like let's say, you know, you get that all the time. My dude likes all these girls' photos. Does not to, not necessarily to her, but does that mean anything if like your boyfriend follows all the hot Instagram models and loves all their photos all the time?

Right. Okay. There was two parts to that. So let's, let me, let me split it up. The first part of does them liking your photos mean that they're into you and like want to connect with you. It's like, look, I'll just say this one. See what I just did there? Yeah, it takes you seconds.

See what I just say what I just did? You see how easy that? I just like four. I just like five Instagram photos. You know what I mean? If this is in my, it takes no effort to do that. So to take that as an inference for something much deeper, I just wouldn't start there. Now, is that a good way to perhaps get a conversation going?

Yeah. Sure. I've done that before. But more often than not, I used to be under that, you know, oh, wow, she's watching all my. my stories and she's, you know, she watches all of it. And it's like, sometimes I'm like, hey, how are you? And I'll reach back out. And it's like, no.

And they were the exact same person. Oh, yeah. The last time I talked to them. It's like, oh, okay, it's not. There's a million reasons. Like, okay, you don't know who's next when you're scrolling through those stories. Maybe she just popped up. Maybe she's just on the bowl.

You know, maybe she's in the bathroom and she's just browsing. There are a million reasons. So never, I try to not run away with those fantasies. Stay in grounded moments and things that you can actually. that are based in experience. Man, what a great episode. I don't want to end it. I don't want to end it, but I have to.

And unfortunately, you know, sometimes we try to catch it. Such is life. Such is life. But that's the beauty of this being a part one. So, Joe, where can people find you? You can find me on TikTok, Joe Zohar. And Instagram under the same name. Yeah.

So Joe right now has been taking clients privately, but we're going to get him set up so that you can book a session with him. You can ask him a question. We're going to do some group webinars and some things together. We have so much. We're going to start our own podcast outside. of Do the Work. We have so much fun shit coming up. Please, please, please. If you liked this episode, let us know. If you hated it, we're so

excited. Joe, thank you again for being on Do the Work. And guys, don't forget, we're always here to support you. We're here for you. But at the end of the day, only you can do the fucking work. And look at me making a new tagline. Guys, until next week, thank you so much. And we will talk to you soon. Thanks, everyone. Appreciate your time.