The Sabrina Zohar Show - 90: How To Heal After A Toxic Relationship And How To Find Yourself With Ginger Dean

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

Ginger Dean joins Sabrina to discuss toxic relationships, healing, and personal growth. Ginger, who experienced an abusive marriage, emphasizes the importance of understanding one’s role in recurring unhealthy relationships to reclaim power and avoid rationalizing red flags. Healing involves recognizing and changing dysfunctional behaviors learned in childhood which is crucial for addressing specific issues. Emotional awareness and open communication are fundamental, as is setting boundaries and asking questions early in a relationship to ensure compatibility. They highlight the necessity of self-validation, maintaining a fulfilling life outside of dating, and rebuilding self-trust. Recognizing when to leave unhealthy relationships is essential for achieving genuine happiness and health. Ginger and Sabrina stress that personal growth involves making decisions aligned with one's values and being willing to walk away from bad behavior. They caution against the need for external validation, especially from random strangers on the internet, and encourage a focus on self-compassion and understanding one's history to break the cycle of dysfunction. Ultimately, trusting oneself and making informed, self-honoring decisions are key to thriving after toxic relationships. Get Ginger's book 'Love Me After We' Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the everyday with Amazon. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show.

My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Yay, we're back for another week. We had a great solo last week. I got real vulnerable with you guys, shared a lot of the issues that I've been struggling with. Because I'm a human and I am so tired of like all of these false bill of goods that were sold that like when you do this healing, you never feel this or you always feel this. And it's like, no, you're human. You're going to have moments. You're going to have triggers.

you're going to have times where you start to overthink. But then it's really like, how do you show up and what do you do with that information and how do you get curious, right? So I'm just so happy I have another week with you guys. We have Ginger Dean on. She is a fantastic therapist. She's the author of loving me after we. And we talk all about how do you move on after a toxic relationship? Like, how do you actually process this? What do you do after you're used to something toxic? And now you're trying to go from we to me and really finding yourself. And it was a really fun episode because I think we were both able to share so much of personal experience and clinical experience that I really, really hope it helps you guys. So thank you guys to everybody. Thank you for everyone that rated the show, has reviewed the show. Please don't forget wherever you listen. We'd love five stars. If you don't think it's worth five stars, that's okay. Just be kind in the verbiage that we leave. I am a human after all and I read all this. But if you think it's worth it, please leave a review. Let us know. We really are grateful for you guys. And we want to make sure that you guys enjoy the show. And if you don't, that's okay. Listen, I can't please everybody. So don't forget, if you're a

subscriber, don't bypass this part, because a lot of you guys will bypass it and then not listen to this part that if you're a subscriber, yes, you get all episodes ever made ad free from here on as long as you're subscribed to everything I've ever made. But you also get to suggest custom episodes. So somebody unsubscribe the other day saying, I want more content on being in a relationship now that I'm in one and this is all about dating. And it's like, that's okay. But then ask me for something. You guys get to decide what the episodes are on. So if you want a bonus episode every month on being in a relationship, how to communicate? What you tell me and I'll make it.

In the regular podcast, not just the bonus subscription, we are going to start adding in some more episodes of like, how do you communicate when you're actually in a relationship? I don't want to alienate all of my babies that are not in relationships, but I also want to make sure that we support you guys along the journey and that we show you guys how to evolve once you're past the first couple of months, like, okay, now what, right? So I'm really excited. We're going to start mixing it up. But don't forget if you're a subscriber, let me know what episodes you want me to make.

you can request ask me anythings me and tech I do one every single month it's all there for you guys plus ad-free and don't forget the breakup course is out we were overwhelmed by the incredible response the pre-sale was better than we ever expected and now we're in full swing so the course is out we are there britt frank and i she is a neuropsychotherapist and we have science-backed ways to actually move through a breakup and what clinically and psychologically will genuinely get you there some of it you might already know and some of it might be new but that's the beauty of the course that we created so there's that there's the foundation course if you bundle them together you save some loot but If you don't, you don't have to. You don't even need either of them if you don't want to, but they are there for you as resources.

So there's some free guides in the link in bio. You guys can work one on one, ask a question, join the course, or even like I said, just download one of the free resources if that's what you need right now or listen to the podcast. So guys, thank you again. Please don't forget, rate review the show. Share it with your friends. Share it on social. Follow along the Sabrina Zohar show on YouTube if you're watching or Instagram and Instagram and TikTok if you guys want some more content. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hi, Ginger. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar show. I am so, so excited to have you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Of course. And now, if you could, for anybody who knows you or doesn't know you, could you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you? I know you have a book that just came out. So I'm so excited to learn more about you. Yes. So my name is Ginger Dean. I am the founder of Loving Me After We. I'm also a licensed like a therapist. And my book just came out. which is loving me after we. So I'm really excited to be here to talk to you guys about toxic relationships

and how we can heal and thrive after them. I'm curious. Like, I always am just like, was this ever? And of course, you can share anything you feel comfortable with. If you don't, please don't feel like you're on the spot. But like, was this a personal? Like, did you experience toxic and now you found your way out? Yeah.

Okay. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I was in an abusive marriage. I got married pretty young, 24, 25. And soon after, you know, it's one of those things where I can look back and say, we should have just never gotten married, right? Oh, yeah. And, you know, there was emotional, physical, verbal abuse.

And, you know, this isn't one of those situations where I'm like, you know, was all him. We both had a role to play. And I think one of the things I often talk about is making sure that we understand, not that I deserved any of it, not that I caused any of it, but me being able to look back at some of my history and to understand, why did you keep choosing him? Why did you keep going back? Why did you allow certain things to happen

when you could have walked away? And now I understand. And it's not so much again, because I know some people will say, well, are you like that blaming? It's not about victim playing. Really? It's really about understanding,

well, when the first, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth situation happened, what in my history allowed me to just say, okay, well, let's keep working this out. And I should have just said, yeah, this is not it for me, right? So yeah, that's where it all started. And I think my work as a psychotherapist also allowed me to explore some other things as well.

Totally. And especially I would imagine, like, as a therapist or just in general, when you're working with people, it's like, yes, we see ourselves and then we see the mirrors and then we see the behavior. And you're like, oh, it's nice to zoom out as well and see it and be like, oh, shit, did I fucking do that? Because I, that's actually why I love your content so much is because I resonate with the fact that you call people out like I do. It's very like with love. But like, I'll look at yourself and you're like, ah. And I'm like, thank you because I'm, yeah, because I'm sure you see where people like say certain things.

And I'm like, okay, some days you have time to say, look, other days I'm like, okay, you got it. Yeah, exactly. You know, whatever you say. And I'm with you because it's like 100% like, let's just put this blanket statement out now. Abuse of any kind is never warranted, is never deserved. Like we can just go ahead and say that without it. but like I personally was in a very unhealthy narcissistic relationship. I married my father, right?

Like classic textbook. And for so long, I was, you know, like I would always tell people like, it's important to understand like my favorite question to ask on a date is like, how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? Because what I want to know is like, what accountability are you taking? Like if I describe an X, yes, I could tell you he's literally like the biggest piece of shit and he's all these things. But then what follows is I'm like, but here's my part in it.

Like I was unhealthy. I was toxic. this was reaffirming corporate needs for me. I'm with you because it's like it doesn't mean that us taking accountability doesn't mean that we have to say, I deserved it. It's like, no, no, no, I allowed it though. Right. So like if someone cheats on you, it's not your fault that they cheated,

but your role might be that you stayed. Your role might be that you rationalized. Well, you know, they were stressed out and I wasn't doing, no, that was a choice that they made. But, you know, I think some people struggle with the distinction because they kind of feel like, well, they have to now look at their role, but then I think if you're also wondering,

why do I find myself over and over again in the same relationships? You might want to look at what your role is, which isn't about blaming you, but just more about you. Yeah, and accountability is like this big dirty word right now in dating. But really looking at, again, what is your role so that you can say,

okay, wait, now I get to take my power back because I get to make a different decision, right? And if I get to make different decisions, that I get different outcomes and experiences. 100%. And it's like, I'm not, I don't ever like to be like, victim shame and victim this and victim. And I'm like, but what I do see a lot is especially, I see it a lot. Like I have a couple of friends in this space as well that are creators.

And we see it all the time of like just this wild lack of accountability of like, no, it's them and no, they're the problem. I didn't do anything. I was just trying to love them and it's all of them. And then they attack us. I'm like, you don't know. You see that. Because it's so true. I'm like, and I tell certain people, you know,

this account is about healing. So that does mean that you're going to have to, you're going to have to be at a certain place in your healing journey where it's not like, yeah, girl, just leave him. Like, we know that. It's more so now. What role am I playing in this? When am I willing to say, hey, I can't feel a narcissist's pain?

I'm probably projecting my own pain onto them and I want to save a version of myself that I see in this person or whatever fantasy it is that you come up with, right? Because no one really wants to, like, go of the fantasies because they feel good and it keeps you delusional. But those of us who have said, you know what, we're just not going to be doing this anymore. We have to make different decisions. And if it means I have to look at the harder parts of me, the messier parts of me, which I often see in my comments, then that's what I'm just going to have to do. And I'll point that out in my comments and say,

hey, so you see how you just did this right here? I wonder if you do that in your relationships and they're going to all offended and show up with my DMs. But I mean, it's just the reality of it, right? you have to look at yourself. That's how I feel when people tell me to change how I speak or I don't like that you do this and I'm like, is this what you're doing dating? Like is this why you've landed on my page because you're going to people saying,

you need to change, you need to do this because I'm uncomfortable. And it's like the passive aggression and I had so like, the passive aggression that shows up and I often say, I think you should talk to your therapist. No, because I think that you literally showing up and doing this in my comments, doing this in my DMs, tells me that there are other things going on that have nothing to do with me.

And so if I'm the trigger, fine. But you have to go and take this somewhere else because this kind of energy I don't want in my comments. And I'll block and delete people because they really do like take it to a therapist. I'm not your therapist. Right. And even if you were my client,

I would not tolerate this kind of behavior. And you just tend to think, well, I get to beat up on you and you're supposed to have compassion, no, you see compassion as a lack of boundaries. And you think that you're able to come in curse and, you know, be passive aggressive, and then aggressive in my, they'll be passive aggressive in the comments and then aggressive in my DMs. And I'm just like, I'll get just as direct and say, hey, this is not, this is not that. This is not that account.

So, yeah, I'm happy to hear you say that because it's something I'm like, do other people go through this? Yeah. It's fun. I've spoken to a few. I remember there was once when Therapy Jeff was on the first time. And he was like, I used to look at creators and be like, how do you not manage your comments and how could you let this? And he was like until you become one. And then you realize you can't.

And it's like I saw once, because I'm the same. Like if I see, it's one thing to disagree. If you're like, hey, you know, this doesn't really resonate. And if you come to me with like, here's what I think, okay, cool, let's have a conversation. Let's talk about it. What I don't do well with is the attacking of like who you are as a person of like she's lucky any man will look at her. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. now all of a sudden you made this about my age

and how I look when I'm telling you that you're being a fucking idiot and you're acting like a moron at this and I start blocking and deleting and I remember one person commented and was like what is she only going to have people on here that like her and then a video popped up on TikTok and the girl was like actually yeah she was like this is my ecosystem

this is my world why would I want you to come and attack me when this is my content and my page if you're here for empowerment and like you said if you're here to do the healing let's fucking go but if you're not then you can't get respectfully removed from the area because if you want me to change because you're uncomfortable,

I'm going to show you where the door is. Right. Like they will definitely, one of my mentor definitely taught me he said, you want to control your comment section because that's your brand. And if people think that they can just come and curse you out and see all kinds of mean things in your comments, and it's not about, you know, you need to have a thick skin. It's like, I don't want to open up my account and feel uncomfortable because you're just spashing in the comments and we don't know each other. And people really, you know, like a therapist friends and I talk, they just really think that, well, you're a therapist. You're supposed to understand when someone does. I do not have the capacity, the bandwidth for people in my comments to just do what they do. It's exhausting. And I would tell people, if this is what you do, I can met in no disrespect, right? I say this with a deep and abiding, but it'll be like a long comment thread. And I'll say, I can imagine that my exhaustion is probably how you're part. feel because if you're doing this to going back and the forth in the passive aggression and you're just not even owning anything, then I imagine this is how your partners feel. And then they'll delete the whole thing. Exactly. When you hold up that mirror and you're like, hey, do you see it? Right. Yeah. Right. And they want me to become just as messy and toxic. And I'm just like, I'm not going to join you, but I'm going to be equally direct and you'll just have to be okay with that, you know? Which I'm hoping people learn that this.

is that empowerment of staying true to yourself, right? Like I saw Inside Out to you last night, and it was so good. I don't know if you saw it. It was so good. And it was just about like staying true to you and like following what you believe. And it's like, don't feel just because someone else says something, it's like, cool.

Like when people come up, you shouldn't curse. I'm like, then find another coach. Like, find somebody else so you can follow. If I curse, it's like a hellfire and brimstone. Yeah. Like you were just like in the baby alive. Right. Like I put a, it was a real I had up with a bathing suit.

recently. Why did you have to, because I'm a woman, because I was on vacation and because I'm sharing it, why is that a problem? Well, you're a therapist. Well, that's your projection. You think I'm just supposed to be the nun and the mommy. And I'm a whole ass human being. And I have different aspects of my personality that I share here. I don't share everything that goes on in my life here. But when I do, I do. That's your stuff to unpack. It's me sharing, being on vacation, and enjoying myself and looking and feeling good bothers you. That's not mine to own. But the stuff that happens is like, oh, you're a therapist.

You can't say this new your therapist. So honestly, that's why I probably don't curse as much on Instagram because I'm like, I don't want to hear in the DMs. Well, did you have to say shit? Did you like, yes. Yes, I did. It was perfect. Yeah.

Oh, 100%. Oh, God. Okay. You and I literally could go about this all day, but I would love. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about toxic relationships. As we're talking about toxic people, right?

But I wanted to ask, first off, what if we can have a definition, right? Because I feel like what is a toxic relationship, like the correct terminology? Because I think I'm sure you can relate. And I want to speak for you. But I'll tell you, mama's real fucking annoyed that all of these terms have been hijacked of like everyone's a narcissist, everyone's an avoidant. Everybody is gaslighting you. And it's like, can we actually talk about in your professional and personal opinion?

What the fuck is a toxic relationship? A toxic relationship for me is where the elements of verbal abuse and emotional abuse, obviously physical abuse, and neither party is willing to do anything about it. So we can have issues now. Physical abuse, we're done. Emotional verbal abuse, one party, the other both parties are doing it, and neither party is willing to do anything about it to heal. Because we do have people who are in toxic relationships, but they're making an effort to heal. So maybe they're both in therapy.

Maybe they're in couples therapy. That's no longer a toxic relationship because they're working to heal. I think what makes it toxic for me is when neither party is willing or able to even do anything about it. So if you have someone who's gaslighting you, who is manipulating you, who's lying to you all the time, they're cheating on you, and you're not willing to leave and they're not willing to stop, that's a toxic relationship. Yeah, I think that's really well said. And I see, like, even me, when I was in my toxic shit, how many times I wanted to villainize and make it about him. And then eventually you're like, yeah, but I'm also playing a part in this. Like I hear it all the time, and I'm sure I would only imagine when you have people that come in and talk to you about it.

Like, no, no, no. I had a perfect childhood and everything was amazing. And I just got anxious because this part, like I literally just dealt with that where it was no, no, no, my child was amazing. My parents are still together. Everything's fantastic. It's like, but you had two highly toxic, really bad relationships. Now you're super guarded. Now you don't want to trust anybody.

Now you don't want to open up. And you're saying, no, no, no. I got this anxiety because of my ex. This is nothing to do with it. that's when I'm like, there's a disconnect. There's a pattern too, right? Because you have two relationships, right? And then there's the pattern of you also disconnecting from the fact that it's not just about,

oh, my ex gave me anxiety because I'll have people say that to me. I'm securely attached. And I just keep on and I had a great childhood. I love my daddy and my mom's great. But yet you go and you dig deeper into their history and they start to realize like, oh, I normalized dysfunctioned, right? What happens is whatever they think was normal and happy, right? They might have just glossed over because it's really just normalized dysfunction, right?

And so they don't realize like those little things that we think are okay, are really not okay. So that's why whenever I see these accounts about raising conscious, you know, like conscious parenting and love them because for me, it's like they're really starting to unravel the toxicity in parenting. And I hate to say that because I don't have kids. I know people are going to flame me. but we have to be willing to look at the ways that we normalize dysfunction when we're raising kids

because we get kids that grow up and say, oh, I'm perfect. Everything's great. It's just, it's them. It's them. And I recently told someone, the reason why we do this is because we externalize personal responsibility. We say, oh, my God, it can't be me. It can't be me because your ego is going to be bruised and saying, oh, yeah, man, what if it is me? That's a hard pill to swallow because your parents never taught you that. And if that perfect parenting that you had didn't teach you that, it wasn't so perfect after all. 100% anytime, I don't know about you, the minute I get, because like, people writing questions. The minute I see everything was perfect. I'm like already off the bat, we're not being honest about what the fuck happened because there is no such thing. Even like somebody,

oh, the trip was perfect. We had this perfect thing. But then if she goes on, you're like, I'm sorry, what was perfect about all of this? And to your point, we normalized. Like, I know for me at least I grew up in a lot of dysfunction. And I think there was a part of me that felt, okay, like something doesn't feel right. But you kind of normalized. Like I remember, so my brother, when I was nine, he was 17, he had just turned 17, I was just like nine and a half. He was taken in the middle of the night. He was kidnapped. The middle of the night taken to a wilderness program for three months.

We didn't talk to him. Then he went to a drug rehabilitation. Then he went one of those crazy schools. And we, like, he got, he got expelled from school. Then that principal became our principal. My sister and I had to go through that. And it was like, it really rocked our house at such a young age. Everything was fucked up.

And it's like up until for about 20 years, no joke, I was just like, oh, what's the big deal? So what? My brother went to a wilderness program and went to a drug school. Until that documentary, the program came out, where then a lot of these people, because he went to something pretty much, it wasn't the same thing,

but it was just as severe. It was just as abusive. It got shut down because it was so bad. And he's completely normalized. It's like, oh, whatever, I went through, you know, I got ruffed up a little bit. And I was like, oh, my goodness, if we can't stop to say,

and that's actually why, like, I'll even start a session when I say, if I ask you anything about your parents, your childhood, trying to villainize your parents, but I am trying to understand where you learned behavior from because it's not about I'm good, they're bad, or I'm bad, they're good. For me, it's, I have to look at, like when I was going through my stuff, I had to look and go, I can love my mom so much. That woman, I would put myself through fire for her. But I can also acknowledge she had no tools. She did not

know what she was doing and she raised a people pleaser because the poor woman had no bandwidth. That to me, I'm like, I can understand where I learned it from while also not villainizing her and saying I had perfect parents. Right, right. Because I think it also doesn't allow you to see the, I think the range that your parent actually has, which is that you probably have a great relationship with them today, but what are some of their downfalls?

Because when you put people on a pedestal, you don't really get to experience them as they are. You just experience them as this perfect image in their mind. And that's what people do to their partners. You know, they'll say, oh, everything was great, you know, and everything just fell down. I don't know what happened. And like, you know, something happened.

There's a big disconnect. There's somebody actually asked, and I'm going to kind of tossle between questions that I have for you and Instagram questions. I do want to make sure that our peeps get, like, get their stuff. We had so many. I had to actually, like, tailor it down. Yeah. And it's like, I know there's a few for sure. One person did specifically ask, though, and I'm curious your thoughts, if there is a concise answer.

How can I differentiate between something toxic versus being past triggers versus having needs? To me, those were three very different things, but I was curious you're hearing that, how you could really start to slice because what I've learned is it's not to anyone's fault, but I just think there is so much muddying of waters and there is so much misinformation and there's so much confusion that I can understand how someone's like, well, how do I know that this is toxic versus am I projecting onto them versus, wait, is this just me having a need? Where do we kind of start to draw the line? Well, I think that's where like emotional awareness or self-awareness comes into play, right?

When you understand your triggers, you can understand, okay, I'm being triggered by this. That said, the answer generally is it could be one or all of the above, right? You could be triggered by something that they're doing, but what they're doing in and of itself is innocent. Now, if there's a pattern where you're constantly triggered and you're telling them, hey, when you raise your voice, when you do this and they don't make an effort to like shift the behavior, so if my partner says, you know what, when you, when we have an argument and you don't pick up the phone for four hours, then I'm thinking that you're abandoning me. So the next time, we have a disagreement and I do it again, I'm triggered. But now I also realize that you're engaging in behavior that you know is hurtful to me because we've talked about this and it keeps happening. Right. So that's when it becomes toxic. So the first time, and I always tell people, pay attention to patterns.

Patterns will tell you everything. If you have a pattern of not showing empathy, when I tell you that you're triggering me when you do this. And even if it's an innocent thing, but this is the gray area, it could be innocent on your part, but if you keep doing it, right? And you know that this is a problem, then why do you keep doing it? And that's for me, because no one's trying to solve it. I'm not, I'm not looking at, well, why am I staying with someone who's consistently doing this even after I've told them that this is a problem, right? The other flip side, not flip side, but the other great area is,

are we trying to control people with our triggers and our anger, for example, right? So some people will say, well, you know, well, this is a trigger for me when you do this, is a trigger for me when you go and you hang out with your boys. Well, they also need time to hang out with their friends. Well, my ex cheated on me when they were on a boy's trip. Well, that's your trigger. But this person also gets to have healthy outlets outside of your relationship. So at that point, when does it become control?

So again, there are all these great areas and you have to be willing to be self-aware enough to understand that. Okay, so do they get to have healthy outlets? Absolutely because I do too. Right. And what it comes back to is my history. And if my history keeps showing up in this relationship, what am I willing to do to heal so that it just doesn't keep derailing my relationships? Oh, 100%. I loved that. That was really a beautiful response. I'm like I, and I think the gray area is what we need to focus on here. Because to me, what I saw healing was as black and white and then it made shades of gray. It allowed me to take this and this and go, oh, there's a middle ground, right? And I learned that.

Right. And like even an example, like my partner significantly more of an I'm more anxious. hi nice to meet you and it's like and that's just you know what it is and like none of it's out of malice like he's one of the most incredible human beings but like for instance sunday he knows for me like i have been so clear i cannot handle when you shut down on me like my father was like that that is a huge trigger i then feel like i'm begging someone to pay attention to me i'm in my own home i don't feel comfortable in my own home because you're ignoring me it's a dynamic i can't handle and he had done it friday and he instantly he realized it he came to me and was like hey i owe you an apology.

Cool. Sunday did it again. And like for the day. And the difference was here, because I'm glad you said the gray area, was I had to look and go, okay. And when we talked, I said, okay, so you know this hurts me. And he was like, I do. And I said, so then what do we keep doing this for?

And he was like, there's a block within me. I need to take ownership of it. I need to talk to my therapist about it. I feel like I can't, I don't feel comfortable to express myself because I'm scared. It's like a whole childhood thing. To me, that is where we have to go, the differentiation of like, that's not toxic, right? That's not somebody who like knows your triggers and

like, fuck you, I'm going to do it anyways. That's someone who's being a human and coming and saying, I'm struggling. I don't know why I do this. I am seeking help. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that I don't do that. But if I do, please have patience with me. I'm trying. Right. And that's self-awareness that we're talking about, right? To be able to say, hey, I know that I do this. I'm working on it. I will talk to my therapist. And as long as I think you're seeing incremental improvements, but also I think more importantly, communication, right, where you're having open dialogue about, well, this happened. Yep, that happened.

You did this. Yep, I did that. Well, what are we going to do about it? Well, I'm going to talk to my therapist about it and we move on from it. No one has to villainize the other person so that because it's like, well, it's not that you're right and he's wrong. It just is, right? And so the difference is often are they trying to do something about it? But, you know, I'll get a lot of flack for, well, why do I have to do something about it?

Well, why would they have to do anything about being a healthy partner then? Because some people will say, like, there's a post I have where I said, you know, when you meet someone, get to know them in their childhood history and what they're doing about it. So people, well, why do I have to tell them my history? Well, why do they have to show up as a healthy partner then? Because you both should know your histories. I'm not saying tell them the innards of the history in the first three months. I'm saying, hey, if you said that you, I'm sorry, earlier you mentioned that you, you like to get to know people and ask some certain questions. I think we should be asking those questions of them.

Like, hey, I don't need to know the innards. I don't need to know the case court, the court case number. I just want to know what are you actually doing about it. And that means if you're in therapy, you can actually show me evidence that you're making progress, not just say, because we have people that come to therapy all the time and they just don't do anything. Right. We want to see insight. We want to see self-awareness. We want to see consideration.

we want to see empathy and ultimately progress. It reminds me of, I don't know if you watch Netflix trash shows, I do. And it was that guy Harry from Perfect Match and all of those shows. He was like, you know, dubbed the fuck boy. And like, and he is the epitome to me of toxic because it's like he comes on saying, I'm in therapy now. I'm trying to become a better version of myself. And he's using that to me because sure enough, what happened when he got triggered

in that moment of wait another hot girl's here? Sure enough, drop the girl and went for the. new hot girl and I dropped her and went for the other one. And it's like, and he was very cognizant. Like he was very aware of like, yeah, I fucked up. That was really messed up. But yet, that's when I look and go, but you're full of shit because you're not doing anything about it. Showing up to therapy. Congratulations. Kudos to you. What are you doing with it? What are you doing in there? What conversations are you having? What material are you extracting? Or are you just making this a show about yourself because, girl, I don't know about you. I've had plenty of therapists that in 45 minutes.

I can talk the entire time and they go, okay, we'll see you next week. What are you doing? wing with it. Right. And that's why I'll tell people like you want, you don't want a generalist therapist. You want someone who's actually specializing in the issues that you're having. Because typically when they're specializing, you're getting homework, right? You're being challenged. They're being directive with you because a lot of people say, well, just like you mentioned, that's non-directive. Like, hmm, hmm, interesting. Okay. You want a therapist and say, but so what are we going to do about that? Yeah. Right. Like I remember someone said to me, they told me something that their partner did that was just really awful.

And my face just started to, I was like, they did what? And she said to me, no one has ever showed that much concern, right, about someone doing that, doing something to me like that. I had said to her, well, what are we going to do about that? Because this can't keep happening, right? And she just didn't really realize that it's okay to like have a therapist tell you that, okay, that's not okay. What are we going to do about it?

Right. this is your homework. And by the time we come back next week, can we have three different boundaries that you want to set with this person if this were to happen again? And so that's why you don't want just to say, oh, I'm going to a therapist. Because we're all trained to be generalists, right? But you do want someone who has experienced it. Like with this topic, you know, attachment trauma, codependency, narcissistic abuse, the parents and children of narcissists, things like that, right? But a lot of people are just going to therapy right now, I think, just to be able to weaponize therapy terms against other people. And this is not everyone, so let me just make that disclaimer. I do find that when someone is broadcasting that they're in therapy, I do sometimes find that personality type to be a little bit more manipulative. And it's something where I have to like, I keep seeing it, right? Because they throw, what they'll do is they'll use a lot of therapy jargon like stuffed into a

sentence or the conversation. And you'll be like, are they new to therapy or are they doing active work? Right? Because the person who's typically doing active work, they're so focused on it. They're not necessarily trying to prove to other people that they're doing it. Right. And I think that when you're busy trying to stuff all the therapy jargon that you're learning into a sentence or into a conversation, you're covering up for something else. And I just find that whenever people are doing that, it just boils out to like, oh, okay, I see what's happening. here. You don't really want to do other people. It seem like you doing the work. Okay. It's like being new money, right? It's like when you're rich and you just made money,

you're like, you keep talking about it and you're like, people that are really rich, don't boast about it. They don't brag about it. I don't talk about it. Exactly. The only time I'll do is about like, oh, I talked about that in therapy. You know, like if I'm going to say something, you're like, whoa, where'd that? That's why I'm so big. Like my first date with Ryan, how'd your last relationship end and what did you teach you about yourself? Do you want kids? What are your political things? Marriage? Do you want that? How do you feel? What are things that you're working on right now that you're passionate about? What are behaviors that you used to accept in relationships, so you're no longer willing to. Like, I asked all of it. I didn't spitfire it like that.

We were together for a few hours. But I will, to this day, when I ask him, so what made you go for me? And he's like, the questions you asked. He was like, I knew you were different. I knew he was like, you were asking things that most women don't ask me. And he was like, that's what I'm looking for,

somebody who's growth-minded. So moral, the story here is like, if we're so scared to fucking ask somebody a question or to just get curious and share things, because I get that all the time of like, what is this a job interview? And I'm like, oh, your emotional availability is showing. Like, you think that you're so emotional,

emotionally available because all you do is walk around saying you want a relationship, but yet the second you even knock on intimacy's door of having some kind of connection, I can't say that. No, no, no, that's not going to happen. And it's like, then your words and actions aren't aligning to me anymore. Or like the coaches who will say, don't ask him that, it'll just chase him away. And I'm like, that's the point. Like he doesn't want to answer questions.

Bye. Right? And I'm just like, why? So part of my thing is like calling out like toxic relationship memes, where it's like, don't ask him this. Just be feminine and sit back and let him. And it's just like, that's not about being feminine. That's just about you just giving up your power.

Like, why wouldn't you want to know if they want a relationship? So what would happen is they'd sit in relationships through all situationships for a year, two years, three years, six years, literally. And then be like, well, why aren't we going to ask them when are things going to get serious? Like, what they want? Because clearly, it's past six months. You know what they want. You just don't want to hear it. you don't want to let go.

And so they were like, well, no, the feminine thing to do is just to sit back and let him and let him just tell me what he wants to do. And I'm like, okay. Is it 1930? Right? Like, are we back to the, where women aren't allowed to vote? We're not allowed to have an opinion. My comments section is filled with women who are like, I will not ask him, what are we.

But here's my thing. I think that if you're doing coupley things and you're not, you don't have any kind of, you don't know what they want, you don't know where you're going. Okay. That question needs to be. asked. I'm not going to wait six more months of doing a couple of things and getting attached before we figure out what we're doing. There has to be boundaries there. So you have to say to yourself, before we actually get into a relationship, what are some things I'm not willing to do

so that if you look back and you can say, well, it never went anywhere and I shouldn't have done this. Well, what are those things? Because we're acting like full-flesh married people before we even know what they want because we won't ask, do you want a relationship? What is your history? Like, what are you like in a part of like? What's the most? stubborn or a difficult thing about being with you. They won't ask any of those questions. They're just allowing for the ride and vibes. And I'm like, but this is why we keep ending up in the same relationships.

But I mean, as you know, like I talk to women, right? And I think we just give up our power when we listen to these relationship memes. It just tell us like, oh, be this feminine personality. And it's like, but how is that serving you other than it just being a mask that you're wearing all the time? And I'm like, that's like how I feel about the. The black cat golden retriever thing. And I was like, or, or here's a crazy concept.

I'm like, so sue me. How about this? How about you stay who the fuck you are and you attract people who like who the fuck you are. And then you guys can have a relationship where you're both authentic and yourself and you're not pretending to be a dog or a cat when you're not, you're a fucking human. It's the new. I just spoke about this because it's like every, I think every year there's a new personality that we have to take on. Right. So the black cat golden retriever is avoidant.

Anxious, right? Avoid it. It's just avoid a trap. Avoidant. Right. That's all it is. And I'm like, why is that, why do we invent new masks to wear? Why would we want to be with someone who just wants to kind of just sit there and look cute and just not?

Like, just say that I'm anxious or I'm avoided. I want to date someone who's anxious and I like the chase. That's it. But we just come up with these different masks and it's like, your entire personality is a TikTok meme. That's it. And there's no depth to you. And they'll get mad when I say, but I'm not trying to be mean,

but I want them to understand how they look to green flag people. Green flag people are not walking around saying, oh yeah, I'm the golden retriever. I'm the, it's like in my divine feminine. It's like I don't ever speak.

And I just see, I just see your passive. I don't really, when people who talk about the feminine stuff, I do often see this very passive personality that wants to just give up who they are to someone else and let that person tell me who I need to be in order to be what they want. So, you know, and then I'll exist. But otherwise, it's like if we take away the feminine stuff,

if we take away the TikTok memes, the black cat, go, who are you? And they can't really tell me, oh, I'm a soft girl, but who are you outside of all of that? And no one really knows, you know? And I think I just want us to start to rebuild or just to have a healthy sense of self in relationships because, again, people who are just green flags, who are just normal, healthy folks are not walking around saying, hey, this is my new internet personality. Hi.

It's like there's this one guy, his like the Daddy Academy is like his name. And I'm like, listen, when I ever, yeah, whenever I preface anything, I'm like, let me preface, I don't have anything personally against these people. It's their content. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I'm going to show,

like he did a video the other day and he was like, a secure man is how you're going to heal your anxious attachment because he's going to be so secure for you. You're going to be able to be in your feminine. And when I stitched a bit, people are like, oh, my God, no, he's so helpful. Like, don't attack him. He's amazing. And I'm like, no, girl, you just want to replicate a father.

That's why you want some guy. That's this toxic masculinity of how, and I was like, no, no, no, a secure man's not going to heal your anxious attachment style. He's going to leave space that you can fucking heal your shit. He's not going to do it. You ever pay attention to how they will listen to the toxic guy coaches? Always more so than they're willing to listen to the healthier female coaches of therapy. And I'll watch that. And I'm just like in my DMs and they'll send me,

they'll send me the videos and I'll say, yeah, no, that's not it. Yeah. Well, this is why it's unhealthy as hell. And if you just want a daddy, sure continue to listen to him. But if you want to have a healthy sense of self outside of this person, outside of what, like if TikTok and Instagram died tomorrow. Who are you? Who are you?

And I think they're looking to other people to tell them how they should be. And if you're not looking at healthy, then what are we doing? And a lot of people go to accounts like that and you just consume information and that's it. They don't really do anything with the information either.

Confirmation bias. It's like when I get a video of a guy that's like, well, if he wanted to, he would. And the girls send that and they're like, see, men agree. And it's like, so one fucking guy who is literally doing this so he gets plays and views on his video, that's the advice you're going to take,

but yet here you are still in your shitty relationship or single and yet you don't want to take anything. Confirm. So I have a rule. I don't listen to men who have not demonstrated that they have done the inner work. I don't listen to any coach, anything. Like, I will not because I find that it's so easy for women to just attach to anything that comes out of a man's mouth, no offense with men out there.

But if you haven't done the inner work and you cannot demonstrate and articulate what that was like for you, I'm not listening to you because we are all, I mean, I could go on and on about that. But yeah. Yeah. I was in that. What are signs? So what are some things that people can look out for in the beginning? Obviously, I'm not asking people to be hypervigilant and play detective. But what are things that you have seen that you have seen that you have seen that you're like, I really think that we should need to be looking out for this. I think something on my end of this spectrum is the talking trash about their ex like incessantly on the first date or when they first meet. you, like we asked, like to ask those questions. Like, so what happened in the last relationship?

And they'll go on a whole diatribe about that person. I will also tell the ladies, if you do that, you are the red flag, right? If you are the one who's just going on and on and on and on and on and on about your ex, that's problematic. So when I say, hey, this is a red flag, it goes for you too. Another one is, I mean, this is a little, this is, I don't know how people feel about this, but when you're getting ready to go on a date with someone and they say, hey, what are the kind of things that you like? to do or what kind of restaurant do you want to go to and they pick something completely opposite of that. They're not considerate because I think consideration, I think empathy, I think compassion

or things that you should be looking for. So just those little things, pay attention to that. It's not a be all and tell all, but you want to pay attention to if they're actually listening to you, right? Consistency. I think that this is what I think. I think that before you meet, you should be talking on the phone with them a couple of times. That will show you, if they're looking for like just a hookup or if they just want to actually get to know you. A lot of men will say to me, well, I'm taking out all these women and I'm spending all this money. Well, do you actually get to know them before you go out on a date with them? No, we just go straight to the date. I think you should take some time to get to know them.

If you're paying for all these dates and you're paying $100 for each day and you're taking three or four women out each week, why aren't you getting to know them? Why aren't you betting them? Be a better guyer. Be a better fucking buyer. Like, no way. Hey, it's a, it's a same. when I get them like, listen, I'm not saying, because I'm not big on like, don't text forever, like fucking get to, like having a conversation. But some people will miss him starting me like, oh, we send one message and met. And I'm like, okay, I didn't meet in that like literally their photo is all you need and you're already at the date.

But I'm like, you can have a little dialogue. But that's why I'm like, okay, if it's too overwhelming, right? If you're like, man, I can't keep going to these dinner dates. It's like, great. So then go in a walk. Go do a coffee date. Go do something that feels lighter that you're like, okay. Have a FaceTime.

Have a phone time. Like, have a vibe check. I've done, I have so, I rolled out so many men because I'm like, I do not jive. You don't get my sense of humor. You're not really getting the sarcasm. That's okay. Next. But I'm so with you because I, and I did, I wanted to ask as well.

Like one question I think most people asked. This was the number one question I got. Okay. How do you trust again after a talk? Like, how do you genuinely? And I was curious your personal experience as well, like, how did you move on? When you got out of this really unhelp. toxic thing that you're like, holy shit. What can people do when they're on the other side?

And it's like, because most of the questions that were about of was like, how do I stop over analyzing? How do I stop doing, you know, how do I stop living in that space, the guilt, the shame? What do we got? I think it's going to be about learning how to trust yourself again. So first, forgive yourself for past things that you're like, oh God, I shouldn't have done that. Why did I do that? Work on forgiving yourself, right? I think there's a lot of focus on forgiving the other person, but there's not enough focus on how, forgive my, When you've like really decided like, okay, I'm human. I did the best that I could with the information that I had and that's where it is, right? Moving forward, what decisions are you going

to make that demonstrate that you can trust yourself? So if someone comes on a date and starts talking hot shit about their ex, are we going to exit or are we going to keep on dating them? If I'm making decisions that show that I can trust me, I'm going to walk away because that person's not over their situation yet. That person is still caught in the past and you will be the next person that they talked about on the next date, right, if things don't end well with you, right? And so ultimately it comes down to making decisions that honor the person you want to be. So we don't have a crystal ball that will tell us what the other person will do and what we'll do. But we do know that, hey, with what I know today, if X were to happen again, what would I do

differently? What are small things that I can do along the way? hey, if I'm talking to someone on the internet or on a dating app, and they really just show like all these messy things about themselves, but I'm fawning and I'm just going to still go out with them and just hope for the best. We don't want to do that again. What decision are we going to make? We're going to say, well, this just doesn't feel good. This person's talking trash about their ex.

They tried to justify cheating on their ex too because they weren't getting a lot of attention. But maybe I'm different. So they won't do that to me. The decision that you're going to make that is different because the woman you're becoming or the man, you're becoming is simply going to say, yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. I'm not going to go out with this person because if you're trying to validate or justify why you cheated outside of, I was fucked up. I shouldn't have did that. That was all on me. That wasn't on them. That was my decision. I need to walk away because they haven't learned their lesson

and they're going to do it to you as well. So I would say focus on how can you start to make decisions that honor the person that you want to be, that person being someone who makes good decisions, that person who's like, okay, so now I'm not going to be worried about the past because I have compassion for myself. I'm not going to make the same decisions because now I know when this person does this, I have to walk away. But you have to be the person who's willing to walk away and I think also do the daily work. And I think ultimately, like you mentioned, ruminating thoughts, like over-analyzing things,

really focusing on having a life outside of dating. I think a problem that I find is like their whole life is about the dating app. The entire life is about consuming dating content. there's no balance there. And so when someone meets you and you're like, oh, wait, we're just talking up, you know, questions come to come. You're like, well, we were talking on the app for two days and I haven't heard from them in five days. You haven't met them. You haven't talked to them on the phone.

What are we doing? That's not really about them. That's about you, right? And so you have to be willing to look at, why are you so anxious about someone that you haven't met? You've already attached to them that you're contacting a stranger on the internet to ask about it. right? And so if you're already attached to them, that's about you. That's not really about them. They could have just gotten out of a relationship. You haven't talked to them long enough to realize that, oh, they're still hanging out with their ex. Right. It's like, there's, because that's why I'm like,

the why doesn't matter. Right. It's like, oh, somebody would say, well, why? I'm on the roster. It's like, here's another thought. Here the person's traveling and, like, hasn't opened the fucking app in a few days. It's like, I think what I see is like, like, I think the lack of self-trust is like probably the biggest issue because, like, I had some of the other day had like asked in saying, how this guy that she went on dates with was just like all of the negatives. And then, but after and she's like, but we just have such a great time together. And you're like, oh, my God. Like, I understand. As a child, you're right. I had one set of caregivers. I could not change that. So you have to adapt and perform to make it through. But I think a lot of people forget now is like,

you do get a choice. You might not like that choice. Right. Like when I broke up with my ex, did I like the choices that I had? No, but I had them. That doesn't change the fact that I had them. And I'll never forget actually like the first date. It was probably like five months after my ex and I broke up. Like this was the biggie. And my like when I get back in the dating world, I remember saying, no, I'm over my ex. And then like the next day, like having dinner with this person and thinking I did a great job on the date.

And then like the next day I remember saying like, hey, like I'd love to see you again. And you wrote back saying like, hey, you are awesome. But like, I'm going to be honest, you spoke about your ex for like 25 minutes of the conversation. And I leads me to believe that you're not actually over them. And I remember stopping and being like, I didn't even realize I did it, right? Like, it was so subconscious. And I, and like, I, back then, I attacked myself.

And now, in hindsight, you're like, wow, okay, all that meant was like, hey, I just need to unpack this a little bit more and, like, not force myself, not push myself. Like, I get to like, when do I, you know, if you got out of something super toxic, I don't know who you need to prove it to. You don't have to jump back into dating. It gets okay to say, let me take a few months for myself. Yes. Let me just do my thing.

Let me find me. Let me go do hobbies. make me feel good. Let me go join some new stuff. Let me find me again. Then when I feel secure, at least who I am now, then I can go out because the reality is we could do all the healing that you want single until you fucking get out there and you're in a relationship or you're dating. You're going to get triggered because another human being is going to have an impact on how your body reacts. But it's up to you now, how you choose to respond. Right. And I think that we just use relationships to try to validate or justify our existence.

So it's like I always say, it's okay for one monkey to stop the show. It's okay for one monkey to say, to force you to say, man, maybe I need to rethink dating right now. Maybe I need to take a break. And that's why I often talk about the heart sabbatical because it's like they want to jump back into a relationship

immediately. And I'm like, I would literally have clients where if we had a session on a Thursday, by Tuesday or by the following Thursday, they've already met someone else. been intimate with them, broke up with them, and now they're entertaining someone else, right? And I'm like, wait, wait,

but we were talking about someone else in the last session. So what just happened? But they're just jumping from relationship to relationship. And that's where we talk about, like, for example, complex PTSD. You're just jumping in and out of trauma over and over and over again. And then you're wondering, why can't I sleep at night? Well, why do I have, you know, all these different elements that are coming up? Because I would literally have clients in their 20s and 30s who are supposed to be

relatively healthy that would just come in with other ailments. And I'm like, something's off here. And it's because all this stress is impacting your body. And we don't really even think about it, but we just say, I have to get back on the app. I think it back on the app. If I, well, what if you don't? Well, and then that's when the anxiety starts because of like, who are you? Again, who are you outside of these external things, the apps, the personalities at TikTok tells you that you need to be? because you're going to be home and you're going to be wondering what is life. You're going to have this whole crisis

because now you're like, I don't have my ex. I don't have the app. And I went through that. Like my therapist said, get off the dating app. And I was going to see her in two weeks. And she said, okay, so how does,

how's it going? And I broke down in tears because I was like, yeah, I got back on the app four days later. And she said, I figured you would. And I said, well, why did you make me do it? I said, because we needed to have this conversation. Your entire sense of self was just validated by who was liking you, who, you know, who said, hey, honey, how are you doing? Because that attention meant like, oh, I exist. I am pretty.

You find value in me. Okay, yay. And it's like, but there's so much more to it. And no one's willing to like take a step back and say, okay, why is that? Why do I need this validation from random strangers on the internet to feel good, you know? Oh, God, that's like when people kind of, like you said earlier, of the like, I match with this guy and like, they haven't answered. And I'm like, oh, okay, so I got to be honest. And I know it because I was heard. And I'm like, that's exhausting. And I'll tell you what's exhausting about it is because you haven't even met this person

and already you're fucking freaking out that they're not texting me and they're not doing this. And they're not doing this. But they were texting me all the time and now they stopped. And I'm like, and I'll be honest with those people. I don't think you have the bandwidth for a relationship then. If I, if you can't even handle the fact that someone you haven't met didn't answer an app question that you asked them and you're fucking freaking out and wondering now, how are you going to be in a secure relationship? How are you going to show up? Because like, I'll say this,

the one red flag that came to me while we were talking that I was like, if anybody is listening, you want to fucking identify within yourself a red flag that you have that you might be in something toxic, you're scared to share it with your friends. You don't want to talk about what's going on. You are nervous. I remember that. I'd be like, I can't say this because you know, and then when I would say it's my friends, you see their face. And then they hold it again, they hold you accountable for it of like, wait a minute, but he did that to you. So then you start saying, I can't, I don't want to talk about it with people. That right there is such a clear indicator for me of like,

if you're, if you're embarrassed or scared, because you don't want to tell somebody what's going on in your fucking relationship, we have a, Houston, we do have a goddamn problem. Exactly. Like,

I remember not wanting to even tell my therapist about stuff. And she, oh, perfect example. I wrote about the book. I was saying that we were seeing a couple's therapist at the time. And of course, I knew I had my reasons because if there's physical abuse, you can't do couples therapy anymore,

right? It's not indicated. And so I didn't tell her that there was physical abuse until after the divorce. She's like, well, why didn't you tell me? I said because I didn't want you to think differently of me because then it would have really meant that I have to talk about getting away from this person, right? Because then we have to safety plan about your safety. And I was like, I didn't want to do that. And so I remember saying to her like, it was just like this moment of like reckoning where I was realizing, like, I'm hiding information because I knew my marriage was toxic. It was abusive. And I wasn't really ready to like admit that. And we just like you said, when you don't want to talk to your friends about it, well, self-awareness will say, well, why don't

I want to talk to my friends about this? Right? It's because I know deep down that something's wrong. Yeah. I remember like calling my mom and like bitching about this guy. And it was easier for me to complain about the fact that he wasn't meeting my needs before I, because like, we all know how it goes. you date somebody like, I was that girl that would like, I lived for dating, right? Like I had a life, but like my life was to find my partner. And I remember like complaining to my mom and what, you know what the easiest thing would have been for me to acknowledge that this person wasn't right for me. But instead of doing that because if I acknowledge that this person's not meeting my knees or this doesn't work for me or like we're just not compatible, then that means I can do something about it. Right.

Like then I have to, I have to stop pretending and wishing that they're going to change. But then after when we, when like it ended, I had this crazy sense of relief, like this big, wave that rushed over me. And that was that first moment where I was like, girl, you're just lying to yourself. Like, if this is the relief, if you get relief after, because you knew that this person was not treating you,

and by no means, was he a bad guy. He just was, I mean, he wanted to live in separate homes and still get married. Like, it was just not my dynamic, right? Not for me. Now he has a girlfriend and they're happy. Great, that works for them. But by acknowledging, hey, you know what,

my needs aren't met. Like, I don't hear from this person for a week in between dates. Like, that doesn't work for me. Instead, I had to rationalize and explain and then make all these excuses and then complain. I just don't understand, but why isn't he texts me? He must be dating other girls. Because for me to go, yeah, this doesn't work for me. It meant that I had to make an action and I had to make a step. And then that meant I had told my,

and then that meant ultimately, fuck, my core belief was going to be reaffirmed. Maybe I will be alone. Right. Right. And at the end of the day, I was like, but then I feel about being being alone, right? I think it's important. Like when you say, oh yeah, but I'm going to be alone. But what is wrong, at least for the time being with being alone? Right. Because your fear of being alone is pushing you into all these really messy relationships. So you'll just choose a body, anybody, right, rather than someone who makes you feel whole, that makes you feel seen that is just like, yeah, do you want me to call you more? Okay, yeah, we'll talk more. That's fine. Yeah, let's figure it out together. Yeah, my mom would say to me, I would be like running off at the

mouth of her. Well, why are you with him? And I'd be like, well, oh, why didn't ask you that? You know, and she's just so direct. And I'd be, she'd really just, well, why are you with him? Yeah. I mean, I, what he did is, awful, yeah, but why do you stay? And I was just like, okay, I didn't ask you that. And I would literally say that to her. And now she's just like, yeah, remember we used to say that? I like, yeah, I know, I was rude. But yeah, I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to have to say to myself, well, why do you say? And it was because that fear of being alone is just so jarring. It's like, oh, I just have to stay and I just have to stick it out. And I think that when you know that you have to go,

you have to leave the situation, but you're looking for all the reasons why you should stay. when you know you have to go, right? When you just start to feel like, oh my God, I can't live without this person. If I have, if I know that you're doing all this fucked up shit to me. And I'm like, yeah, but I can't live without you. That is time to go because now I'm willing to sacrifice myself just to be here. And it's like, but I'm not happy.

And the other thing I'll say is, am I happy? Like, is this happy? And I'm not talking about, you know, momentary, you know, things that happen and, you know, you get over. I'm talking about like those roller coasters. like we're having knockdown, drag out. We don't talk for 10 days. People will literally say to me,

how do you feel about someone where you had a fight? They haven't talked to you for 10 days, but they tried to sleep with your two best friends behind your back, and they're going to the bar to go and, you know, sleep with girls there. What is there to even, respectfully, what is there to even ask there? Yeah, no, I've had some of those where like, they'll write in this how terrible the person is. And they're like, what do I do? And I'm like, I'm sorry.

what are you holding on to? Like the person that you met... The problem is there's these accounts that will tell them, you know, like I saw this account of how to change your situation ship into your forever ship or something like that.

And it was just like, the comments were filled with these stories and just awful things. And I get it. A situation ship can shift into a relationship but not when they're treating you like shit. And so I was, well, you just have to pull your energy back.

You just have to, you know, and I was just, It's not about manifesting at this point. It really is about your self-worth because you're not a green flag person with a healthy sense of self. If you're willing to tolerate a bad behavior because you think you can manifest them into being this better person, you have to take a step back and say, well, why would I want to have to do that in the first place? Yeah. And what's my role in this, right? Like I think that's like been the hill I'll die on. That's why I started doing all this was because I was like, I'm tired of no one holding us accountable. Like I'm tired of being. part of this and then being like, oh, no, it's them before it's like, actually, no, this is also me because I'm a human and I play a part in things. Oh, Ginger. I could literally talk to you all fucking day. But I am, thank you so, so, so much for being on the show. Please, please tell people where can they find you and well, of course, everything will be linked in the show notes, but I'm so

excited for the book. You can find me and loving me after we on all, you know, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. I'm mostly on Instagram, though. And my new book just came out, loving me after we. It's the essential guide to healing after toxic relationships. It's on Amazon and all the booksellers so you can find me there. Awesome. Thank you for having me so much. I enjoyed this so much, Sabrina. Likewise, thank you.