The Sabrina Zohar Show - 91: Rejection, Abandonment, And The Origin Wound With Vienna Pharaon

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

On this week’s episode, Sabrina chats with Vienna Pharaon, a licensed family and marital therapist. They delve into the concept of origin wounds and explore how childhood experiences shape our lives and influence our relationships. Vienna talks about how unresolved pain often manifests as patterns in our daily lives, and urges us not to get stuck in the past but to acknowledge and understand it. Origin wounds can stem from issues of worthiness, trust, belonging, prioritization, and safety, and recognizing these can help us heal. Sabrina and Vienna highlight the importance of examining the roles of our caregivers in our upbringing, noting that even those who were less involved can cause significant pain. Healing involves grieving and witnessing these wounds, allowing us to make different choices. Understanding how our childhood affects our present relationships, particularly how fear of abandonment and rejection play into these core wounds, is crucial. Vienna advises against comparing our pain to others, affirming that even without major trauma, our wounds are valid and deserve attention. She and Sabrina also discuss how these wounds impact our self-worth and the way we relate to others, suggesting that by addressing and understanding our behaviors and patterns, we can break destructive cycles and build healthier relationships. Get Vienna's Book, 'The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love' Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babes. It's bonus week time. Yay, we get two episodes this week. And if you're a bonus subscriber, you get more, which is always the fun. But today we have Vienna Feren.

And so she is the master behind mindful MFT. She is a marriage and family therapist. I love, love her work. She has a new book out called The Origins of You. And today we are talking about abandonment, rejection, and the origin story. Because I get it. It's confusing.

A lot of people will be like, I don't get it. I had a perfect childhood. And it's like, it's not about it being perfect or not. It's about understanding where we learned a behavior from. You could have two incredible parents, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they taught you what you need to know in order to satisfy your needs and function as an adult in relationship sometimes. And that is okay. And I'm so excited with Vienna because we really explore that. We talk about it.

We really dive on in to give you guys more clarity and understanding of where these deep rejection and abandonment wounds truly do come from. So I'm so excited. Guys, thank you, thank you, thank you, as always for supporting the show. The name change, it took a toll on me personally, you know, like anything else, right? It's an ending. And so we have to process and allow our feelings. But we're back in. And all I ask is please share this with your friends.

53% of podcast's growth comes from word of mouth. So by reposting on Insta, tagging us, following along, like all free things, just sending your friend the link and saying, hey, I think you should listen, means the fucking world. It allows me to show up for you guys consistently and keep the show going. So guys, please don't forget to support our sponsors. I get it. Some of you guys don't listen to podcasts. Ads are very, very common on them because they help us keep the show going.

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And as always, guys, if you need anything, everything's in the link in show notes. You can work one on one. You can ask a question, download some free guides. You can join the course, right? So we have the foundation course, which is an eight-week self-guided course that really helps. I mean, we've had incredible results. And people are really loving it because it really makes you understand more about you, your dating patterns, your limiting beliefs, all of those aspects. And then, of course, the breakup course, it's a nice three-week intensive based on neuroscience of things that you genuinely need in order to move through the breakup. But of course, like anything else, the work starts and stops with us. So it's really what we do with this material, as opposed to it being the material. that is going to change your life. But we're here to support you guys. As always, if you need anything, please don't forget. And if you bundle them together, you save some loot. If you need both courses, and if not, that's totally cool. You choose you and do you. But guys, we're here to support and I love you. Thank you, thank you for everything. Thank you for showing up as you and allowing me to show up as me so that we can do the fucking work together. I love it. And guys, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

Hello, Vienna. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show. I am so honored to have you on. So excited to be here. Oh, here we miss me on it. Here we go. We're going to make this happen. Yeah. I know. And here's a buddy thing for the followers. Like we, I lift the veil quite often. Vienna and I recorded our original episode that literally as the moment I got the cease and desist and put my phone down and then had to be on camera. And so we decided collectively, we wanted a much better experience. And so I am honored to have you back and I am just so excited. And for anyone who doesn't know you, could you please just introduce yourself and share us a little about you, the book, just everything about who Vien is. Yeah, of course. Well, I'm excited to be here.

I'm so glad that we were both like, L.O.L, we should definitely record this because that was a moment. So happy to be back. Listen, you're like my last on the calendar. I'm about to head off on maternity leave. So we're going to bring it today. I feel like that's the moment for us. It's like, we had the issue on your end and now I'm like, I'm going all out. So I am, hi everyone, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in New York. I have been working with individuals, couples, and families within the context of relationships for a long time now, probably about 17 years. And my work is really about understanding the family origin, the family system that we grow up in.

I obviously understand and believe that there are other influences, things that affect us along the way, but my work is really looking at how we grew up, those people around us, and how that really just sets the framework foundation and trajectory of our lives. People come into therapy, obviously, with something that's going on in their lives, usually present day. Some folks will come in and say there's something I need to resolve from the past. But a lot of times people are coming in with something that's happening right now, and that's what they want to address. And so when you're like, okay, we got to go back and we got to talk about your family, you know, that's like, wait a second, I don't know if I want to do that.

And when I have found over all these years of, you know, 25,000 plus hours of working with clients face to face is that the unresolved pain in our lives is going to grab for our attention in, you know, sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle ways. The patterns in our lives that we can't shake, that we can't change are, is pain from the past that still needs our attention. And so that's the hard and beautiful work that I like to do. And yeah, I wrote a book called The Or of you that became a national bestseller that is all about exploring our past and doing it, I hope, in a way that is not daunting for people. It's like my goal is not for us to get stuck in the past. My goal is not for us to stay there. My goal is not for us to point the finger, blame people,

just be in this place of like, oh, it happened because my parents suck. It's like, nope, we're going to hold nuance. We're going to hold complexity. That's the name of the game here. But we also do need to take a look at the stuff that predates this moment right now and honor it and acknowledge it and be with it maybe differently than we've been with it before. And so yeah, the book has been, you know, has been a fun one. And yeah, I host a podcast called This Keeps Happening, where I speak with anonymous guests about patterns, challenges that they're facing in their relationship and families and all that, which has also been a real treat to, you know, do a podcast slightly differently than, you know, sort of like the expert to expert one.

and just like get a little peek into people's lives and work with them in that way. So there's a lot, but that's a good place to start. I mean, that's why, honestly, that's why I've been a follower of your content, no joke for like years. Like even before we were connected via Brit, it's like, we love Britt. Like she was the driving force. I was like, oh my God, I love Vienna. Like, you know, and then, and the reason I think you resonate so heavily with me is because you actually really helped me open my eyes to understand, wait a minute, there is something

deeper because it's so easy for us to either do one of the two things, like you said, either completely villainize our parents and be like, everything is their fault, which it's like, okay, well, not everything can be. Or the opposite, like, no, I had a perfect childhood, nothing ever happened. And we normalized. Like, at least for me, I grew up in a really dysfunctional home, but how was I really going to know it was that dysfunctional when you don't have any other frame of reference until you're an adult, you talk to a professional that's like, hey, look, I'll never forget.

And I've shared this story before in passing the, when I broke a, you. up with, or when my narcissist texts, like I married my father. It was classic textbook, like, talk about the origin. And I went to a support group. It was my first time ever going to a support group. And it was a narcissist anonymous one. And I was like, I'll give it a try. And I remember there was a girl in there and she was with a new partner and she had been kind of gone through the whole progress. And she asked me, she said, could you, could you please share a little bit about us? Like, we want to hear what's going on. And I remember sharing and saying, you know, I think this is normal. Like this is how my dad is and da-da-da. And this is how my partner treated me.

And she just stopped and looked at me and said, oh, honey, that's not normal. And it, like, kind of hit me and I was like, I asked her, said, well, why are you here? And she said, because I was you. And now I'm on the other side. And I get to help people like you get there. And so that blew my mind open. And so even let's start there of like, couldn't we talk about, like, first of all, what is the origin wound when we talk about this, the origins of you, right? Like, what are we talking about when we think about that? And then how does it typically develop in childhood? Because I'd like to give clarity for, I think there's a lot of misunderstandings that you have to have to have. like bad parent in order to be affected. And I love that you even said that nuance word because it's not black and white. None of this ever is. We need to be able to understand a little bit deeper.

Totally. I think it's actually quite easy when there is something significant and big and acute, you know, some of the things that maybe we do call traumas, right, where it's like, oh, of course that thing affected me. And it's so obvious. And here's the way that it plays out in my life. And here is how the pattern repeats itself. I actually find that the subtleties are the ones that are a little bit harder for us to spot. And I think especially when people are in this space where they're like, my parents did the best that they could or they were so much better than the grandparents were to my parents.

And they've just, it's gotten better or they sacrifice so much. You know, a lot of times that's a narrative that'll come up with immigrant families, where it's like I could not, if I said anything badly about them, right? Like I would just be such a, such an ungrateful person. Right. And so there's a lot of things that make us want to stay away from it. origin wounds, there's five that I've identified. This is a language that I like, listen, whatever floats your boat, if you want to use a different word that resonates more with you,

beautiful, right? You're not stuck in a box, but I do think that frameworks can be really helpful. And so for me, when I sat down and like, what's the human experience? And like, all my clients, what have people gone through? What I came up with was the worthiness wound, belonging wound, prioritization wound, trust wound, and safety wound. We can have all five of these. We can have one that really resonates deeply with us. You might check out of some other ones where you're like, that's not for me. I'll check you back in because it probably is though for your partner or for your sibling or for your parent or for your adult child. Right. And so part of this work is not just about trying to understand and reflect about your own life. It's also about you considering

the important people in your life as well and seeing where there's sensitivities or activations for them too. We, I use the word, wounds because when we have conversations about trauma, what I've noticed is how many people want to check themselves out from the conversation. They're like, I don't belong here. I don't have a trauma. There's nothing big that's happened in my life, so I don't get to be a part of the conversation. And it's very important for me that everybody gets to be a part of this conversation. Trauma can be a wound, but not all wounds have to be traumas, right? And so this idea that something significant has to happen in your life for you to have a right to your pain is so problematic.

It's so problematic. I call it wound comparison, right? Where it's like, yeah, you know, you start, oh, so-and-so has a way worse than I did, or this story over here is so terrible. And so I don't have a right to my pain. Yes, you do. We don't need to maximize it. We don't need to minimize it. We don't need to distort it. We don't need to mess with it at all. What we need to do is acknowledge it. There's one story that I share. It's a client, his alias in the book, Andrei, and I like this story because I think it is a good example of what you're inviting in for this conversation, which is single mama, loves his mama, respects her so deeply. She is working multiple jobs, trying to give her son a great life.

He understands that. He sees that. He can rationalize that. Still, at the bottom of it, though, is a prioritization wound, which is, you know, it starts to become revealed where they get to go to church on something. Sundays together, have brunch afterwards before she goes to her next shift. That is the time that they get to spend together throughout the week because she's working doubles, triples, you know, she's in the at night, et cetera. And he, it was so hard for him to acknowledge that there was a prioritization wound there, right? One that said, I actually want to be prioritized through time spent with my mom. Now, there are reasons and constraints as to why that can't. happen or isn't happening. You could rationalize that like, well, she is prioritizing me by working so hard.

It's like what the brain will do, right, to try to explain the story. And yet we still have a wound here, even though mom did everything she possibly good, even though mom is not anybody listening is not going to throw anything at mom with this experience. And yet it still registers something for us as kiddos. And that's our work. No, we're not going on a wild goose hunt. No, we're not trying to mix stuff up.

But we are trying to acknowledge and honor what our experiences are without giving the rationalization, without giving the explanation, and without trying to minimize away the story. 100, right? That's so beautifully and succinctly put. And I think what you're really describing to is, like, being able to hold those two conflicting truths. Like, for me, I love my mother. When I say I put myself on fire for her, I love this woman more than probably anything. like she is my rock.

But there's the but growing up, immigrant woman had nothing, grew up with nothing, had really tough child and she completely disassociated. So as a mother, she was never really present for us. And so when we'd expressed her and say, you know, she would say, but I was always there. And I'm like, mom, did you ever make eye contact? And then it hit her and she's like, oh, my God, I didn't know.

It's not about, oh, I have to make my parents so bad to validate my experience. But I think we do. And I don't know if you experienced this. Like sometimes I'll definitely have it where when you make the connection for people, they almost want to minimize it of like, oh, come on. Like, is that it? Really? I go there.

And it's like, yeah, it's okay to stop and be like, holy shit. Like I had one client, I'll never forget. And she said growing up, like kind of similar to what you were talking about. She was like, I don't know where I get this anxiety from. And I said, I mean, we're trailing back, trailing back. And I was asked her something about her father. And she was like, I said, do you ever remember feeling this? And she instantly stopped and goes, oh, my God.

I remember as a kid, my dad would go into the office and lock himself into the office. And I'd scream and cry and cry and, bang on the door from to let me in and he wouldn't let me in. And she was like, and now as an adult, I understand he was working. He literally was on calls. He could not deal with a toddler. But it's like, was there another caregiver that came up to remove her and explain? No, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with your parents. It just really means that we need to understand where did you learn as a child who as an adult I can't even comprehend certain things, let alone as like a two-year-old with like a frittata brain. But I was curious, I don't know that you ever have.

Have you ever met anybody that didn't? have one of those wounds. Like even the most secure person, is it possible? Okay. No. No. And I mean, if you're out there, present yourself. But it's like, no, right? Because it's the human experience, right? There are people who have obviously stories that are heartbreaking to any of us. And then other people who will say, and where it's true, that they had fantastic parents and fantastic caregivers. But even in that fantastic parent, fantastic caregiver experience, right, is still the human experience, which is that we are flawed, we let them, that we say the wrong things as parents. It happens. And there is something that is going to

shift a trajectory in terms of how we relate to our own sense of worth and value in the world, how we relate to our sense of belonging, how we relate to our sense of feeling important to the important people in our lives, whether we can trust people, whether we feel safe or secure in the world. And so, no, I have not to come across that person yet. But people still try. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, you're same. No, no, no, no. No, when we're talking, because I think a big thing, like, I love the wounds that you had described. And I think for most people, what they really, like, what I think the verbiage that we use more often than not is like abandonment. I'm scared of rejection. where do really those fall in as far as when we're thinking about these wounds?

Because I don't think people really understand that that abandonment and rejection fear, it starts early. This isn't just, I get all the time. No, no, it's because of my high school boyfriend or my college sweetheart broke my heart. That's why I'm scared of being abandoned. How do those fall in when we're thinking about those core wounds? Yeah. What is maybe brilliant and also complicated about wounds is that our stories are about the way that

we internalize them, not about like, oh, you're going to have this experience in life, and that's going to, it's going to fall into this bucket. You and I could have had the same experience and the way that we internalize it in terms of the wound might be a little bit different. So, for example, when we are talking about abandonments and rejections, we could fall into the worthiness category, certainly. We can fall into the belong category, certainly. And let's get a little bit more specific. So if we had the experience of conditional love, which is really common in the worthiness wound, meaning, okay, if you get straight A's, if you are a star athlete, if you are the comic relief in your home, right, you get love and connection and attachment and presence and

calm and all of those things, the things that you want, right? But if you're not performing, if you're not succeeding in that way, if you're not pleasing in that way, then you don't get as much attention or you don't get as much of praise or dad is shut off or mom is more depressed, right? You start to notice these differences. What's happening there, it's saying is the condition for love, the condition for connection, the condition for presence is dependent upon how you show up in the world. And if you're not doing that, maybe there is an experience of rejection. maybe there is an experience of abandonment. I think when we talk about abandonment,

a lot of times people think of it in the most sort of like obvious and acute ways. You left me, you left our family. Abandonments happen in lots of different ways, right? The abandonment of your authentic self, let's say. When we talk about belonging, right, so much of that at the beginning, Gabo Ramante talks about this, right? It's like that are these two lifelines, our attachment and authenticity. And as a kiddo, if one of the one of the is going to be threatened, right? If like attachment is going to be threatened, we will, we will get rid of authenticity in a heartbeat because attachment is our lifeline, quite literally. And so this idea that, okay, I have to betray myself, I have to lose parts of myself, right? I have to, I have to

reject something within me because it's also being rejected by someone else who's not able to tolerate our differences or who doesn't know how to be with, you know, this part of me that is presenting, be a little bit more this, be a little less that, right? Like those types of things. are rejections and abandonments of the self as well. So again, if we get caught in this space of, I have to look for when my dad left our family at four years old and never turned around and you can't find that thing, then that might be really confusing to you. But if you can start to be again in more of that nuance of where did I have to leave myself

or where did the adults, like, leave me even if it's just emotional. Maybe it's not a physical, right? But if it's just an emotional leaving or a requirement that I had to be someone other than who I am in order to fit the bill or in order to be part of the family, right? Those are the things that are going to lay the foundation for the rejection of self or the abandonment of self. Oh, I self-abandoned so hard when I dated and I didn't even realize what I was doing. And like that's why we're even talking like, it all comes full circle. We are kidding ourselves. if you don't think that your dating experiences

are also going to mimic these earlier aspects. And like one thing I personally love to do and like it did I just not like evented this, but like something that works for me is like for instance, you know, when I got like the second, when I first got the cease and desist, that was just shocking. But the second like letter, you know,

like when you try to go back and be like, okay, let's like square this away. Right. Can we just make this go away? I got another letter back pretty much saying, no, we're going to come after you. And in that moment, I literally broke down.

And when I started to explore it, the first thing I really was like, no, no, what are the sensations? What's happening in your body? Because on paper, seeing, okay, you're about to lose this. I wasn't going to be, oh, yeah, that's like when my dad left. It's like, that's not the direct correlation. That wasn't the experience I was having. Instead, what the experience, I remember the first thing I said was like, okay, first of all, I want to see what's my narrative.

And I was like, I feel like I'm being bullied. I feel like I have no control. I feel powerless. Those are big words. Those are really big descriptors for an experience. And then as I started to explore and I went in. the sensations, it brought me back to a memory of my childhood where my dad was just, we didn't have a choice. He was very abusive and it was like an experience that I got to experience. It was really

traumatic. Now, the reason I share that isn't because it's like, ha ha, that's what you all have to do. But I think that we can start if the pinch doesn't match the out. Somebody, you had one date with this person and they'd say, you know, either you don't hear from them again or they text you saying, listen, you know, I don't feel a connection. Some people will literally write in being like, I'm a mess and I'm crying. I'm all over the floor. And you're like, okay, this is where where we have to stop and say what, what is being activated there? Because if you're saying, well, I feel abandoned or I feel rejected, then we really, to me, I'm like, okay, let's start to unpack that. Like being rejected means being ridiculed and judged for who you are as a person.

This person knew you for an hour and a half does that match, right? And I think this is so, I'm glad we're having this conversation so that we can start to bridge the gap of like the work that you do that's beautiful and then understanding it in the dating and relationship realm. because if you don't, oh, it'll reel or it's ugly head as we start to date and go along. And I was curious, you know, of course you can add anything after, but I was curious, have you seen a difference between the mother and the father origin wound? Like, do they, can you have both? Do they manifest differently?

You know, things like, I would be curious to see more the dynamic of those kind of and how that impacts us in our relationships and growing up. You can absolutely have both. And I also think that a lot of times we might put more marbles in one. with the person that feels really obvious to us. And we don't have to go too far down this hole, but I think one of the things that I remember being struck by in this work was when people are like, oh, this is the parent who created the pain.

Like so clear, so obvious. And what would happen in our therapeutic work is that is true. There is maybe that was the experience. But what would come out later is actually how much irresolution was with the other adult, whether it was their parent or caregiver, whomever, where that was the person that they were like, oh, this person never did XYZ, but what they didn't do is actually where the pain often is, right? You didn't step in.

You weren't able to stand up to this other adult. You didn't have my back and that there's so much irresolution around that. And so, yeah, I think a lot of times we'll get caught in this like, okay, I definitely, whatever, even when you said, I married my father and this like really classic, like the pattern was so obvious. And also I assume that there's probably some stuff that plays out with your mom quite a bit too. And, you know, how that plays into your dating and romantic world. And so, yeah, I generally will have people make sure that we are spending just as much time with the person who feels really obvious to us as the person who feels quite a bit

less obvious to us. And maybe we don't find as much stuff there. I'm not suggesting that we always do, but that we need to give it some air time because most people will be really surprised by it. So yeah, it could be absolutely, it can be both. And sometimes it could be the person you least expect. There's more to life than finding the perfect car. But finding the perfect car can help you get the most out of life. Like the SUV that handles everything from drop off to off road

and the car that hulls groceries and hockey teams or the van that's gone from just practical to practice. family. Whatever you want, wherever you're going, start your search at ototrater.ca, Canada's car marketplace. I don't know about you. I went through that. For a long time, you're like, why am I getting, why am I not getting better? I've done it, right? I've seen. They're the one. And then you still feel like there's this something else. And it's like, yeah, because when my father used to behave like that, my father used to hit me, where was my mother? My mother didn't step up for me. My mother didn't come in. My mother, on the contrary, she calls.

called him to do it. And so it's like you feel the pain, you feel that hurt. And again, it's okay to be like, wow, there's a little girl in there that needed to be validated that, yeah, you were let down by both your caregivers. It's really beautiful. I had this experience. I actually had a conversation with my mom this past year. And, you know, one of the things that I've talked openly about before I grew up, I'm an only child. My parents went through a nine-year divorce process, which was the longest in the history of New Jersey at the time. It was just like this drawn-out, highly conflictual experience. And my dad was this master manipulator, gaslighter, you know, it was psychologically abusive towards my mom. It wasn't directed at me, but I was the observer of it.

And there's a skill set I gained from being the observer of this, which has made me a good therapist, and I don't miss a beat, and I don't forget things. But my mom was not, was someone who, you know, it was really crazy making for her. She could not. follow what it is that he was doing. He could always be right. Yeah, he was masterful in it. And this past year, I remember saying to her, you know, I was like, I held so much anger towards you for not being able to keep up with him. And I surprisingly, she said, I know. I remember her responding to me. I was like, you do. You know that that's why I was angry with you as a and like why I, you know, rebelled and was so, you know, it was like, I was so, and I didn't know it at the

time, but I was so angry that she could not, as the adult in the system, handle, hang with him, that I had to be the one to hang, that I had to be the one to track it and trace it and follow it and be so in and on because that wasn't the role, obviously, that I needed to be in as a kid. Now, is it a skill set that I have at this point of my life? Sure. Where did it get earth from, yeah, my pain. But it was so powerful to be able to say that to her and for us to also have that molded, which she said, I know, I know. And I'm sorry that I, like, that I didn't know how to stand in that, right? That my brain did not operate that way, right? That there was so much, you know, abuse that was really happening there that it disconnected her from, you know, any sense

of reality and truth. But sounds like, you know, similar to what you were just describing, right? like naming it, expressing it, having that conversation and how healing that can be. And I was going to ask, so somebody had asked, this was an Insta question. Okay. Because I think I'm curious now to kind of more also move into like, okay, so if a lot of people, like, especially for the people out there, they're like, maybe I know this, maybe I don't, it's like, okay, now let's maybe help them of like, how can we identify this? So someone asked, I had a great childhood, but I'm picking the wrong partners, what am I missing?

And I think it would be, I'd love to hear your thoughts on like, where do we even start? if you see a pattern that you're like, I'm dating all the wrong people. But, and especially when you have a great childhood, it's like, how can somebody start to do this without like fucking also rocking their world and being like, what, you know, and going through this identity crisis? Yeah. And listen, like, the truth is probably that you did have a great childhood, that there's a lot of really beautiful parts there, and that there's also something that maybe hasn't been totally acknowledged or identified.

I would generally encourage people to see, okay, is there any pattern or is there anything that we can pull from the types of people that you continue to date. And it's not necessarily like that they all have to be the same, but what is your experience with them? Are you not feeling prioritized by these people? Do you not feel good enough? Do you pedestal them? Do you feel like you guys have just too many differences? Like, what's the thing that's standing out to you when you actually take a scan of the people that are quote unquote wrong for you? Because that's going to be something that at least points us in the arrow of where there is work to be done. And so, I mean, without knowing more information, unfortunately, about like this person, it's, you know, it's going to probably

stop us from going too deep with it. But yeah, I want to know, like, what's your actual experience in this dating process and what's the familiarity there? Whenever it is something that we're able to identify, then that question of familiarity is really important. Right. Like, what about this sensation is something that I've experienced before. What about this sensation is familiar? You said something that I actually wanted to gain a little bit more clarity on because it's like, not even getting clarity, putting someone on a pedestal. You know, I hear this all the time.

Everybody, every day, like that's, I think, a big point of contention for a lot of our daters. Even a girl, she just messaged me asking, so it's a perfect time for me to ask you. She was like, I'm struggling. Like, before I go on a date, she's like, I consciously know, like, I don't know these people. She was like, but every time I leave, like, I always put them on a pedestal. like how can I actually stop doing that?

Like, what do I do? And like, where does that really come from? Yeah. Putting people on a pedestal is not a good thing for us to do for ourselves or for them. What it reveals, it doesn't reveal anything about them. What it reveals about you is your own relationship with your worth. Because automatically when you put somebody up, you put yourself down. Right?

Yeah. And that is such a revealer of our relationship with our own sense of worthiness, our own sense of value immediately. And we could say here, like this person would say, I know, like I just met this person. I don't know that much about them, but I exit this first date and automatically this person is up here. And so that is an invitation for us to do work around our own relationship with our sense of worth and value in the world and to other people. I'll never forget after the man that I married that was very similar to my father, being a coffee with my friend and crying and just saying, but, you know, because like he was an editor at this

place and he had this career and it was all the shiny stupid shit. But like, did he embody any characteristics that I would actually hold on to? No. And I'll never forget. My friend just looked to me and she just, all she said was, got to take the shine off him. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, make him a real fucking person. And I didn't understand that. And I was like, right? And it's not about villainizing. It's not about like, well, I'm good. They're bad. Right. like that polarizing to me, yeah, it's like there's no place for that here. But what I had to start doing was like, okay, kind of to your point, okay, how do I feel when I was with him?

I didn't feel great or like I would constantly notice where I'd be like everything was my fault or I'm the problem. And it's like, okay, wait a minute, is there fact to back up that I'm 100% this problem? No, no one person can be responsible for everything because it takes two to tango in a consensual relationship. And so even just being able to stop and go, okay, but he's so thoughtful. Great.

Give me five examples of him being thoughtful. And then I had to stop and I was like, I don't have one. I don't have one fucking way to describe this person. And then I started to realize I'm thoughtful.

Like it's me who does a lot of this stuff. And then I really started to realize like as I was putting myself down, it was wait a minute, I'm too much. And I was like, or wait a minute, where did I learn that I was too much?

I was like, because he would shut down on me and walk out of the room. And I had to stop and go, wait a minute, maybe that's also on him that he doesn't have the bandwidth to be able to hold a conversation.

to be able to hold a conversation, and it can't just all be me. And so at least for me, like, I found making them a real person is the first way, because then also we have to look at, like, what is the narrative we're holding on to these people? And then also, if it's, I hope they'll change, like, is that the same thing you hoped with your parents? Like, that's my number one thing. I'm like, how'd that work? Right. Right.

I mean, you want to ask the question of, like, what is the function of believing this thing? What's the function of putting you on a pedestal? Right. what is it, like even when it's not functional, right? Like our behaviors serve something, even if it's, if it means it keeps us stuck, right? Even if like, oh, the function of making you shiny is that I then never have a reason to leave. The reason for making you shiny and putting you on a pedestal, right, is like I never have to face the abuse that I'm confronted with. Right. And so like, when we think about this person who's like, okay, I always leave these dates and I put these people,

people up here. Yeah, does it reveal something about your own worth? Absolutely. And would I encourage you to explore that? Absolutely. But also like, what does it mean? What does it serve when you do put somebody there? Right. Like what does it require of you? What does it keep you in? Right? What do you not have to face? What do you have to face when you put people up there? Those are hard questions, but they're, they're important, I think, to address and to face and to get really honest with yourself because it's going to be some, you know, if we don't do that, we're going to stay stuck in something that usually is unhealthy for us. 100%. And now, I have a question. Somebody had actually asked, and I thought it was a really good one, because I think we see this all the time of like, and I understand it's

a spectrum as well, like the fear of abandonment, fear of rejection and things like that. There are some people that it might be small and minute. It's a kind of a background noise, but it's not a driving force. And then there are other people, it is such a driving force that it's actually implementing them from genuinely having a great relationship, right? What, how, what is that? What is, a way that, you know, if you're dating somebody, that maybe it's not necessarily that I have that wound. How do you support somebody, though, in a relationship or in a courtship? Is it that, like, they need to get therapy? Like, what are ways that you can support your partner or the person that you're dating if you see that they're struggling with that? The ride that steals the spotlight

every time it hits the road? That's the Volkswagen Tiguan. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood access. Under the hood, the available 201 turbocharged horse power engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tiguan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SuvW, German engineered for all. Right, yeah, and I think there's probably a different answer if it's like early on in the dating versus this is somebody you've been partnered with for a long time and you're like in the thick of it with them. there's only so much we can do as the outside person because the reality of it is

is that our worth, our value, our sense of belonging, our sense of prioritization is not something that we really actually want to outsource to someone. So I think when we are, you know, this is like the fluffy words, but like when we're in a safe and secure relationship, that's obviously really helpful. Okay. So when we can remind people of those things as a partner, beautiful, no one's going to like throw shade at that. But ultimately, like this is an inside job. It is an inside job for other people. And again, as partners, I'm a really, you know, when people are like, you're like, I get activated about this because people are like, you're responsible for yourself. Like if I'm in a part, it doesn't matter, but you're

responsible. Like, okay, listen, when we get into a relationship, we choose to be in a relationship, like, yes, of course, you're responsible for you. I am responsible for me. But there's also this unspoken agreement that says, because I love you and because I've chosen you, right? Like, I am part of this with you and I want to support you and I want to show up for you. So like let's not just hang out, like I'm over here and I'm not participating at all. So we'll get that out of the way. So safety, security, the reminders, like are there certain things that I can do as a partner to ground us to remind you of something that I believe to be true? Absolutely. And are there times where I think that external voice becomes more of the internal voice? Totally. And it will still be that encouragement

that motivation to do that inside work for ourselves to be able to find that sense of worth or that sense of value or that sense of belonging or whatever it winds up being through our own sure is it therapy is it um you know working with a coat you know whatever it might be absolutely but there has to be something that is restored there because no matter how much somebody else tells you the thing if you don't believe it it's just going to get knocked away. Yeah. You know?

And like, again, you have, like, therapists will tell class, your dear friends will tell you, you know, it's like, you'll hear this stuff. But if there is something inside of you that is bigger than that, it will reject it, and it will toss it away. And so we're having to deal with the thing that wants to reject this new story, this new narrative, this new concept that no, in fact, you are good enough. Look at all the proof. I love you. I'm here with you. I'm staying with you. I see you differently. All of that is great. But if you don't believe it, if there is something within you that is bigger and more powerful than that, which it often is,

then you're going to find ways to knock it away. And so there has to be this work around the resolution. And for me, you know, and this is not quick work. This is not something that you, you know, follow these four steps and then you arrive at this place. But when there is a story, an origin story around why we struggle with this thing, and no matter how many of our trusted partners and confidants and friends tell us something alternative to the story that we tell ourselves, when we can't accept it, it's letting us know that it is tried and true in there. And that's the work of being able to not just identify where the pain is, but to also bear witness

to it, to also grieve alongside of it. There is a process of, you know, there's like somatic work that really needs to happen with how much that pain from the past is still controlling our lives today. We're not in the driver's seat. It is in the driver's seat. And even all of these people who love us and adore us and respect us and see us so differently than the way that we see ourselves, when that doesn't crack through, it's letting us know how strong that pain actually is and how much witnessing, how much grieving is actually required for it to move. I am a big believer that our witness and work and our grief work is the thing that allows for change to happen.

I always say that healing, I know it's a buzzword and gets thrown around a lot, but to me, what it looks like is going from survival to going to choice. And to be able to choose differently in a moment is such a, oh my gosh, it's such a profound moment in our lives for anyone who has ever experienced it. I know firsthand for me, I was like, wow. For me, it was something as simple as saying that I was affected when I was affected as opposed to pretending like I was fine. I'm fine girl for a very long time. And to be able to say, you're like, yeah, we see each other. And it's like, oh, I'm not fine. I don't feel respected here. To get those words out of my mouth was so significant, was such a profound moment.

And there was choice in that. I no longer needed to survive through this moment. But the way to get to choice, which I call the pivot, but the way to get to choice, right, is through grieving and witnessing and really spending some time with the pain and with the wound. And so a lot of times people want, and you were sort of alluding to this before, like, we'll have people who are like, I know where the pain came from. I can connect those dots.

I know where the wound is. I know the origin story. Why can't I just now choose differently? You haven't grieved enough. You haven't witnessed enough. When stuck, grieve more. When you can't create the changes that you want to see for your life, for your relationships, when you're dating world,

it means that you haven't spent enough time witnessing your pain and grieving it. Man. And that's the, you know, like, well, but that's the, part that we have to pull back into because, listen, people will be like, I'm not an idiot. I know. I'm not lazy. I'm like, I know. I know it's not about that. No, no, you're not. Right. So it's not about you just identifying something and then bypass people like, do I really have to grieve? Yeah. You do. Do I really have to feel? Uh-huh. Yeah, you do. You cannot skip over that part and just choose differently.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but also the invitation is say that if you're someone who's like, I know all the things, and I've identified with all the things, I know where it came from, and I'm still doing this stuff. Okay, then I think my answer to you

is that you've probably not grieved and witnessed enough. And that might be a confronting thing to do, but what a beautiful way to have an answer to something, to say, okay, we've got to feel. We've got to feel. And we don't have to lose ourselves in the feeling, but you have got to feel. You have to see this pain.

You have to acknowledge it. And whatever that natural expression of emotion is when you actually do the witnessing, that is your grieving. And when you do that, it loosens its grip on you. Pain loosens its grip on you. I always say patterns are pain's way

of grabbing for your attention. If they could speak, they wouldn't say I'm here to ruin your life and I'm here to cynically, like, clap my hands together and destroy you. I just want you to acknowledge and honor and feel and experience. me. And when you do that, I will loosen my grip on you. And I will not have to pull you back

into these old patterns. But you don't get to just go on with life and forget about me and get the outcomes that you want. Like, acknowledge me. Turn back around. Get on a swivel for a moment and take a beat. And then you can choose differently. It's the Family and Friends event at Offers Drug Mart. Get 20% off almost all regular-priced merchandise. Two days only. Tuesday, April 28th and Wednesday, April 29th. Open your PC optimum app to get your coupon.

Oh, it was beautifully said. I mean, even I remember when like I went through even the cease and desist situation, I allowed myself to feel for like weeks. It's been five weeks. I'm still feeling and I'm mourning and every day I allow myself. I'm like, I'm not going to shame myself because for me personally, like similar to your experience of being able to express, for me even, just being able to feel my emotions as something I was never. We were hit. We were told,

you are not allowed to do that. That's going to lose the connection. And so for me, I was scared to open up to my partner because I'm like, oh, God, am I going to lose the connection? And on the contrary, it was so healing because he held space and he just stayed with me and just let me literally scream in a way. He's like, I've never heard you make noises like that. And that is a okay. And what you described so beautifully, which debunks this one staying that fucking drives me insane that I hear all over the goddamn internet. Maybe you know, maybe you don't. If you wanted to, he would.

It's like, it's such a lack of understanding. And it'd be like, because that's the, I hear this up like constantly. Well, but I'm dating this person and like, he's super avoidant. But like, why won't he let me in? Like if he just wanted to, I could help him and I could do all these things. You know, and it's selfish. And well, if he really wanted to, he would. And all I hear from that is I'm like, first of all, it sounds like a child who does not

understand things. I'm like, well, if dad wanted to be here, he wouldn't. And it's like, your father's out working. doing something, you don't really understand how to pay bills yet. But second, what it's to me, like, what it overlooks is the actual wounds that you're completely discrediting that someone has to say, well, but I exist in your life. So now make them go away and now choose me and everything will be okay. Because it's not just when we're dating, the biggest lesson I learned that I learned the hard way in the best way possible was healing doesn't mean I just stop, that healing doesn't mean that I just

stop looking for the bad things in people, right? And it doesn't mean that I just, okay, cool, well, I no longer date red flags, and I no longer do this. Healing also allowed me to be like, holy shit, now I have to receive love that completely goes against the grain of what I believe that I am, that I'm too much, I'm annoying, I talk too much, that, da, da, da, da, da, fill in the blank here. Because now this person's trying to give me love and holy smokes, that goes against my origin wound that, no, no one's ever going to love you for who you are, so change who you are. Right, right. It's so profound. It's such a narrow lens and it irks, or, me too. You know, the one that irks me the most is the, if they don't accept you at the

worst, they don't deserve you to have you at your best. In what world? In what world do I have to accept you at all your bullshit? But then, because then I get you at your best. I'm like, I'm not your mom and I'm not your dad. I hate that one so much. I hate that one so much. You and I can probably riff off. I see them. Oh, I mean, you know, it's the same is like, if a guy doesn't text you every day, and you're like, okay, let me ask you a question. Are these serving you? Are these helping your dating life? Are you seeing the results that you wish to see? Instead, maybe we can look at, whoa, what's the narrative that I've created? Maybe I don't trust myself. Maybe I don't trust other people. Maybe someone has really failed me in the past and this is now a projection that I'm putting on to them. Because I see it almost every day. It's like, like, I have one client and I love her, but I'm like, your wounds are going to be what ends up causing this to demise. Because one little thing, like he said he was going to call and, he didn't. It's like he called a couple hours later. It's hell in a handbasket. And you're like, listen, I know that you were let down as a child, but you cannot make this poor person that you barely know responsible for every issue you've ever had because if they're not perfect and they don't do

exactly what you want and they don't read your mind all of a sudden, it's, well, I don't want to be with them and why should I have to express myself? And it's like, to me right there, I'm like, oh, that's probably a primo demographic to be like, hey, this is nothing to do with them. What's coming up for you? Totally. And listen, like, this is just such. such sensitive and tender work because ultimately, right, if we're not addressing our pain and our wounds, what winds up happening is that we will often self-destruct or destruct the relationship and we'll do a really good job of making it be about them and not about us. And, you know, there's such a balance, right, of like finding our own personal responsibility and ownership and

accountability in this. I think when we take a systemic lens where we're looking at like, oh, not just if you cared enough, you would. No, it's like, okay, what do I know about your life story? What do I know about your history? What do I know about your pain? What do I know about what it was like for you growing up in a family system, et cetera, et cetera? And listen, when we're dating people in the early stages, obviously we don't have a lot of information about that just yet, but ultimately to hold the truth that there is complexity to people's stories. And not to confuse that with making excuses or being treated badly. But I think there's just something so important about holding that systemic lens instead of such a linear one. And, you know, ultimately, yeah, if we don't do this work,

we will be difficult to be with. I mean, I know we're probably coming. Like, I remember there's a story I always tell about when I was dating. my now husband. And we were in a conflict. And I don't know what we were fighting about, but I was like doubling down, tripling down, proving my point, need to be right. And he's like, me, I got it.

Like, you know, and he's just holding this space so beautifully. I just keep going. And I have this out-of-body moment. I'm like, be going to shut up. Like, stop talking, right? And then I can't. And then finally I stop and I have a little bit of a shame spiral. Like, oh, no, like this was really unattractive.

Maybe he's not going to want to be with me. Like, this is something that could potentially ruin a relationship, if you continued to need to prove your point and be right all of the time in conflict. But instead of just staying in that space and not doing anything about it, enter, I'm a therapist, so I probably have to be able to explore this stuff,

I realize very quickly that my need to be right and prove my point was really tied to my ability to feel safe in the world. Rewind to the story that I tell about watching my father be super manipulator, gaslighter, psychologically abusive. And what I saw between the two of them was, if you are right, which my dad could always be right, meant that you were safe, meant that you were in control, meant that you had the power. If you were not right, Phil and

mom right there, it meant that you were unsafe, that you were unwell, that you were taking advantage of, that you were not okay. And so I moved through life in such a way where I was so good at being right, never missed a beat, could always prove my point, could always show you how you were wrong. and it was self-protective, but it's also a destroyer of relationships. Ultimately, you can't keep doing that with the people that you love or care about and not have it destroy something. And so I share that because, again, what you and I are talking about is moving from linear to systemic.

It's about seeing the whole and understanding these parts, because if you don't address your pain and your wounds, they are going to. going to come out and they are going to destroy and they're going to pick and they're going to do and they're going to like that stuff will happen and it will happen for them too but we're talking about you right now and so your job is to be reflective about these things your job is to look at the behaviors that you engage in that are difficult that people complain about where have you been criticized where have you been complained about i know that's a hard thing to reflect on but it is so important and so valuable for us to do that.

And then to have gentleness and compassion for the self, because those behaviors are always self-protective, always, always, always, self-protective. But we need to be in relationship with them differently because in their effort to be self-protective, they will be relationally destructive. 100%. That was beautifully said.

And the moral of that story is like, you can hold yourself accountable and still have compassion and love. Like it doesn't mean that it needs to be berating of like, oh my God, V, you're such a fucking idiot. Why would you do that? Oh, my God. It's like, no, no, no. there's no space. We don't need to add in the narrative and the judgment and the story. But it is true. Like I had somebody had asked and she wrote and saying like, you know, my partner says I'm all of these things and it was a list. And I was like, listen, I'm not going to discredit either of you. I'm not going to say, oh my God, he's being too hard on you. And at the same time, I'm not going to say it's all. I was like, can we find a balance that one, maybe you guys aren't compatible? But second of all, it's like, is this person bringing something that feels like validity to you? You know, like you said, if your husband was like, I love you, but like this is really chopped.

tough for me. It's not about like, well, why should I have to change? It's like, no, hey, maybe that is a really good point. I do do this. Can I explain to you where that comes from? And thank you for listening. Now I can actually maybe do something and support myself in a different way. I think it's such a beautiful and healing way and also how amazing it is to bring you as a couple together. So Vienna, thank you for sharing all of your fucking wisdom. I can't wait. We'll have you on for part two once a baby is popped out and through. But for anyone, where can they find you. We'll have everything linked in the show notes, but where can people find you and read the book and all that? Yeah, the easiest place is Instagram, mindful MFT as a marriage

family therapy. Like all the things that I ever have going on are in the link in bio there. There's not a whole lot going on right now as I enter into baby portal and, you know, no new offerings, none of that. But yeah, if what we're talking about resonates, obviously the most supportive thing that people could ever do is just pick up a copy of the book and dive into this work. And I'm excited for people to do that and see where it leads them and where moving from survival to choice what that changes in their lives. So I'm so grateful to have had this conversation with you and to be on the show. And yeah, can't wait for round two, or round three, but round two, that'll go live.

Right. The 2.0 slash the 3.0. But thank you again. I can't. I'm still excited. Thanks.