The Sabrina Zohar Show - 94: Disorganized Attachment In Dating And Relationships With Thais Gibson

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

Sitting down with Sabrina today is Thais Gibson, co-founder of The Personal Development School, which focuses on attachment styles: secure, anxious, dismissive avoidant, and fearful avoidant (or disorganized). She and Sabrina talk about the different attachment styles to lay the groundwork for this conversation. Secure attachment develops when a caregiver is attuned, leading to fulfilling relationships. Anxious attachment often arises when parents are loving but absent, leading to fear of abandonment. Dismissive avoidants experience emotional neglect and struggle with feeling trapped. Fearful avoidants grow up in chaotic environments, resulting in conflicting desires for love and connection while fearing them. Thais shares her experience with disorganized attachment, where strong feelings of love triggered fear, causing her to shut down and push people away. Sabrina and Thais emphasize the importance of understanding attachment styles, showing empathy for internal struggles, and maintaining clear, kind communication. In relationships, anxious and avoidant types can work together if both are willing to grow and communicate effectively. Healing disorganized attachment involves reprogramming core wounds, understanding personal needs, and learning self-regulation and healthy boundaries. The journey is challenging but transformative. Get Thais' book, "Attachment Theory: A Guide to Strengthening the Relationships in Your Life" Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hi, babes. I'm so excited. Welcome to another week. We got another guest week. I'm so excited.

And this week we have Taise Gibson on. Taise is, she's a very special person to me. She is one of the most authentic, real, fucking incredible coaches. She is a beautiful person inside it out. And this conversation filled my cup up. And we talked about something that I don't think we talk enough about And you guys ask so many questions about it that I wanted to have somebody on to talk about it. And that's the disorganized attachment, right?

We know about the avoidant and the anxious, but we don't really talk about that amalgamation of like, what does that actually feel? How is it feel in your body? What's this person going through? And whether or not that's something that you internally deal with or if you're dating somebody or know somebody that has it, this is information that's just so helpful for us to really understand ourselves and other people a little bit more. And so, guys, I'm just so stoked.

As always, thank you for everything. I will say this every single fucking time I come live. Thank you. Thank you for following. Thank you for reviewing the podcast and reading it. Thank you for sharing it with your friends, following along on the socials, and just being such an integral part of this community. I would not be here if it wasn't for you guys. And I do not take that lightly.

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There's something for you. And whatever you guys need, I want to be able to provide that. So check out the link in the show notes if you guys need anything. And as always, just thank you. That's all I can say. Thank you guys. And I'm so excited. Here's to another week. And without further ado, let's get right? Into it. Hello, Tais. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar show. I am over the moon to have you. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here with you. Can you please share a little bit about you, the personal development school, who you are just for our audience to learn a little bit more about you from you?

I'm the co-founder of the personal development school, which is sort of all this online space with a whole bunch of different courses. And I ran along of the content there and did that after about 10 years in client practice. So I originally was working with clients on a weekly basis, seeing like 40 to 50 people a week, and eventually just felt like there was such a bottleneck in terms of getting material out. So I went down that path. And I primarily focused on talking about attachment styles. And a large part of the reason for that is because I myself was a fearful of what, aka, disorganized attachment style. So I had a really deep interest in attachment theory, attachment styles, because for me, growing up like relationships were just chaos. They were hard. They were confusing. I would like

want love and connection. And then I would feel completely overwhelmed by it. So I did a lot of work to, to heal personally in this area. And then ends up sort of repurposing a lot of my learnings and my client practice and eventually online. Oh, I love that. And you have a podcast as well, right? Yes. The Taiz gets a podcast. I am such a big fan of you. you of the podcast because I love how you articulate things. I love how you educate people. And I think it's a really beautiful. I love your channel. I love your platform because like you don't sugarcoat it. You actually give people the information that they need and you genuinely teach people how to fish as opposed to just how to go out and get the fish. And that's why I really wanted us to chat today

because I think we have a lot of misconceptions on the different types of avoidance of, you know, the fearful, the dismissive, the disorder or the disorganized, whatever. I think just a misconception. So I kind of wanted to even just start from your professional and just the clinical perspective of like, can we go over the different types of attachment styles that we know that we've normalized today? I know there's like these amalgamations and there's the this, the this, but what are the meat and potato ones? So there's four major attachment styles. The first one is the secure. The securely attached person basically grows up in childhood with a lot of approach oriented behaviors.

So what this means is that they get a lot of when they're distressed, they're crying, they're nervous. they get a lot of attunement, and they have their caregivers actually approach and to figure out what's wrong. And it may sound like a small thing, but it actually is a really big impact because when a child in their difficult moments feels attunement, feels the presence of their caregivers, feels like there's care and soothing and attention. Basically, what that construes to them is, okay, well, I am worthy of being hurt. I'm worthy of my emotions being seen. It's safe to express them. It's safe to rely on other people. And it's safe to trust people to be there for me. and to care. So these individuals get really healthy modeling for relationships in good moments and in difficult moments. And what that means is that growing up, they end up having more fulfilling relationships because they have healthy conditioning around securely attaching to others. And so securely attached individuals report not just being more fulfilled in their relationships, but also having the longest lasting relationships. And honestly, I'm sure you probably agree with this, you can have a long lasting relationship, but if it's miserable, it's not that meaningful. But

if you're like, I have a long-lasting relationship and I'm actually fulfilled, then not saying something. So now we have three insecure attachment styles. One is the anxious preoccupied. Anxious attachment styles, I'm sure your audience is very familiar. They grow up with either real or perceived abandonment as children. So it could be like a parent leave the household and there's a splitting up and the parent doesn't really come back around. Or it could even be that the parents are very loving, but they work a lot. So love is there and love is taken away. And the repetition and emotion of that experience will fire and where neural pathways that will cause this child to grow up and go, oh, I can't trust that level stick around. And so they become really afraid of abandonment as adults and they fall on tight,

they cling, they people please, they do all these things to abandon themselves in favor of trying to win over others so that other people don't abandon them. And of course, that comes with his own challenges and relationships. The other side of the continuum in a way is the dismissive avoidant. They're sort of the opposite and many components of what it means to attach. Yeah. And so the dismissible avoidant attachment style grows up with this overarching theme of childhood emotional neglect. And what this does is it causes this child who's wired for attunedment, who's wired for connection, to feel trapped in a situation where their needs can't get met. And so they as adults feel very afraid of being trapped or engulfed in another relationship where their needs may not get met.

And also, when a child goes through emotional neglect, they can't conceive of, oh, my period is just emotionally unavailable. So instead, they make that mean something's wrong with me at my core. I'm shameful. And so does misof avoidance end up as adults having big shame wounds? They're scared to express their emotions, really let people in. They may sort of cut and run when things get serious if they don't have the awareness of their attachment style or what's going on. And they often are very afraid of commitment or closeness. And they feel very ashamed of having emotions. And last but not least, there is the fearful avoidant, aka disorganized attachment style. We'll come to just call it the disorganized for the sake of this episode.

But the disorganized attachment style basically grows up with the overarching theme being chaos, extreme chaos. It could be having a parent who's an alcoholic and addict, a cluster be personality disorder like narcissism, or it could even be just having a really ugly divorce and you're parentified or put in the middle. And so this child grows up in a household where they never know what they're going to get. And love can sometimes be a good thing. sometimes when the parents sober or when the narcissist is love bombing,

there can be these loving moments, but there's also really traumatic and often really unsafe moments around love and connection where there's extreme, you know, harshness or cruelty, sometimes different forms of abuse can take place, physical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc. And so this child grows up and goes, I really want love, I really want closest in connection, but I can't trust it. And I'm scared of it at the same time. And so as adults, they're very hot and cold, push, pulled, and they yearn for connection,

but often when things get real, they also pull back. And so their big core fears and wolves end up being around betrayal, abandonment, similar to the anxious attachment style, but also the fear of being trapped, just like the dismissible one. There's more to life than finding the perfect car. But finding the perfect car can help you get the most out of life. like the SUV that handles everything from drop off to off road and the car that hulls groceries and hockey teams or the van that's gone from just practical to practically family.

Whatever you want, wherever you're going. Start your search at autotrater.ca. Canada's car marketplace. Oh, so you said you had identified more as disorganized, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and like I would be curious because, like, So for me, I remember I dated this guy years ago, like probably three years ago now. And I, he would always say, I'm avoiding it. And then I was talking to a friend explaining the

behavior. And she was like, I remember the one story I shared was, we had a very tumultuous trip. Like, it was a long distance. And it would be one minute, he was all over me. And then the next minute it was, you know, why are you trying to like pin me down? And I was like, pin you down. We're going to dinner tonight with your friends. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, you didn't want me to come. And it was like, this is just that. And the last night, we had this long talk and I just finally was like I just kind of called him on a shit and I was like you are so hot and cold. I was like one minute you're all over me. The next you're not. And I was like and then you're telling me, you know, I'm a voidant. And I was like, this is a fucking excuse. I was like, I understand you had a lot of

things going on. I'm like, but you're pushing me further away from you. And like we had this whole thing. And I never forget. He like stops me and he's like, I've never felt so seen before. I've met an equal. Blah, blah, blah. And then we end up having this magical night. The sex is fantastic. Oh my God, I'm feeling like, okay, like this is the guy I've been dating. And then the next day, I'm leaving, going to the airport, right? And I was all, you know, I'm sad. And we wrote each other like a letter that, you know, we were going to swap for each other. And I remember, like, you know, this big goodbye.

And like he's, I wrote him like quite a different letter than he wrote me. And then I read his and I sent him this whole long text on the flight of like how connected I felt to him after that and like how big, how much I was into him. And then I get home. remember he just hearted the message and I was like, what? And so then the next day he calls me and he was like, you know, I miss you. And I was like, do you? I was like, I'm, I got to be honest. I was like, I'm really not understanding what's happening here. I was like, just the other night you tell me you've met your match. And he goes, no, no, no, no, I didn't say I met my match. Or he said, I didn't say I met my equal. I said I met an equal. I didn't mean that you're my equal. And I was just like, are you fucking

kidding me? That is that. So I was curious, what are things that people can look out for? Because I think the avoidant has been so villainized and like, oh, they just shut down and they removed themselves. And it's like, can we clarify a little bit more of like, what's actual behavior that you'll see with someone who's like avoidant versus that amalgamation and that disorganized? Like, what are we looking for, I guess? Okay. So we'll start by going through at such a great share. And I'll even share like a story of the inside world of myself when I would probably do things

similar to him. And I'll tell you like some of the mechanics because I think a lot of people will just clear up what's actually going on. So there's a dismissive avoidant and dismissive avoidance for anybody who doesn't know this. They're more retracted on a pervasive basis. They start by being slower to warm up. They can be a little bit standoffish. They have a harder time letting people in. They're not that vulnerable.

And they'll sort of keep people as long as they can at arm's leg. Careful avoidance or disorganized attachments. I'll just sit in disorganize. Disorganize are the same thing for anybody listening. They have the anxious and the avoidance side of the attachment continuum. So they have those abandonment fears and wounds, but they also get really scared of being trapped. And so you'll usually see disorganized on a good day. They present, very loving, very present, very available.

They like to go deep. They actually love to be challenged and they want growth and they want to work through things. And they are also terrified when things get too real for them. And so this is where you'll see things like on that vacation where it wouldn't surprise me at all that, you know, you have this dynamic of him being really like connected, so deeply connected, so like, you know, raw and vulnerable and all these things. And then suddenly it just feels like everything changes on a dime. I spent a lot of time to be like that in my relationships. And I was in a fairly serious relationship when I was really young. I lived with a person, I was with him for like four years,

five years. In this relationship, there would be times exactly probably like that, where I would feel so connected and I would really show up and be really vulnerable and go deep. And I'd I especially love to be, you know, you feel loved when you feel somebody knows you. So it's a big, like, you know, that's very part for the core is what you said. And I have times where I remember being in a relationship and I would feel so connected, but then the more connected you feel, the more hypersensitive you are. Because deep down, I had these beliefs like, well, the person always going to abandon or betray you long term anyways. So the more you love or the more you care or feel for somebody, the scarier and more threatening it becomes,

simultaneously. So I always think of like love and connection at that time is feeling so like a bittersweet. Like the more you love, it feels so good, but it hurts. It almost stings at the same time when you love and it's really confusing and overwhelming. And so when I would have these really connected moments with people and I would start growing in like the care or love for somebody, then it's almost like my spotty senses would come on and be hyper-sensitive and scan for any little thing that was them doing wrong in some way. So if then I just, didn't get a letter like I was expecting or I didn't get the message back that I was looking for after being really vulnerable and really open, I would shut down so much more strongly.

And that's the difference between the disorganized and the dismissal avoidant is the disorganized. They will be all in and so loving and then they shut down more intensely, whereas dismissive avoidance are shut down more pervasively. They kind of keep people at arm's length more to begin with. And that journey warming up and connecting is much slower and longer. And so, generally when those moments were really good, I was really connected, then I would feel more easily rejected or hurt by things. And that would cause me to feel even more stung or hurt by a relationship dynamic or situation. And then I would shut down even further. And so it's like this hot and cold cycle that goes around and around. God. And I could imagine like dealing with that internally.

Like I don't think anybody that has in one of the insecure like, me with my anxiety, it's like it's not fun. But I would imagine like that is its own kind of hell where you're like, I want it. No. I want it. No. and just that, right? Like, how was it for you? Because it's like, I think we are so used to, and that's why I wanted to talk about this. It's like, we're so used to villainizing people for what they have. But yet we haven't had really any compassion of like,

well, what was that experience like internally for you? Yeah, thank you. I think this is good for anybody listening. You know, I have long, so I started doing the work quite a long time ago, like 14 years ago, I had really started my journey, almost 15. Like, at that period of time in life, it was, it is like, it's all kind of hell. Like it's, you're constantly the warrior connecting.

You're just, you're triggered all the time. You're always afraid that somebody's going to abandon you. And then if you're not scared that they're going to abandon you, you're waiting for them to betray you and you're scanning for everything and you're suspicious and you're always reading between the lines. And then what people get close and things are going well, then you're like overwhelmed and you're trapped and you need to pull back. And it's honestly exhausting, this mode of being like, should a stay or should I go all the

time as you start getting close to people. I had a lot of times in that earlier relationship, and really a couple earlier relationships where I would like on a weekly basis either insinuate that the relationship wasn't going to last or actively try to like break up with the person. I'd be like, this isn't working or like, I don't think we can make this work out. And I would do this all the time. And I didn't even realize that I was doing it because I would be so in my wounds that I couldn't see the type of like trauma that is for somebody else because I was so identified with my fears.

And I felt like that person was hurting me. And so it was justified for me to push them away. And it took a lot for me on my own healing journey to be like to really confront like, oh, I can't do that. Like that's not a healthy behavior. Like as wounded as I am in that situation, that's not acceptable. And so I had to do a lot of that deep in our work to become securely attached because that wasn't a way to live.

And I was honestly never going to have healthy, sustainable relationships in the frame that I was in. No. And I appreciate the vulnerability. Like I think it's just. I even see it with Ryan, like my partner. He is a, like, classic. Like you said, it's like that pervasive is just like,

nope, nope, nope, no. Like he's always kept me at arm's length. And for a while, like, I personally never looked at him as like, oh, you're a bad person and you're doing this on purpose. For me, it was just like, you know, I need you to open up. Like, I don't know anything about you.

And it wasn't until recently where he finally admitted and he was like, I don't know, like he's been in therapy trying to understand like he gets on these loops. And when he gets on the loop, he goes right back to his. limbic brain and he's like you could see it in his eyes he's it's almost like any second now you he wants to crack but he's like no i'm going to hold this in and he finally admitted the other like maybe a couple

like a month ago and i said i was like what is your hesitation about opening up to me and he was like i'm so fucking scared and i said what are you scared about and he was like that when you see the real side of me the emotional side the side of me that used to get me hit that you're going to leave and he was like that you're not going to love me for me and that's why i have to put this kind of this on and that's why i just go in my own head because I don't want you to see those parts of me. And it allowed me to have so much more compassion for someone going through that

because I think we have that misconception that the anxious proke is like, well, I express myself. And it's like, yet again, no, you don't. Expressing your, sure, sure, may you express yourself, you're not necessarily communicating. Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating. And neither is you, you, you, you, you. That's not communicating with somebody.

That is just expressing how upset. Sure, those are all valid feelings. But that doesn't mean that the behavior, that comes with it is valid, right? And so I just, I'm glad we can kind of debunk this a little bit because I can understand, I mean, I know me. When I dated the guy that was hot and cold, it's maddening. You're like, I'm going. Am I taking crazy pills? But I remember when it ended, like, I was sad, right? I was bummed. I really liked him. This guy was, oh, God, he was so hot. And he was so fun. He was so gregarious. Such a big personality. So intoxicating. Like,

is one of those guys that you're like, damn. But I also knew after, I was like, the homeboy has issues, right? It was not something that I internalized, but it allowed me to then have compassion to be like, oh, shit, what's your experience and what's happening internally? And I don't know about you, but I don't think enough people necessarily are doing that. We are just, it's me against you without understanding like, hey, we're all fighting our own battles. It just manifests differently. 100%. And honestly, there's this dynamic you said about your partner.

Like, that's exactly part for the course for a dismissable one in two, which is they are so scared because when they were children, and this is deep, like this will be deep. subconscious. It's not something they consciously recognize. It's just this feeling that exists because it's been stored previously at the subconscious level. And it's like, as a child, if when you are emotional, it's either shamed or deflected or everybody ignores you. All you do is you think this part of me is wrong and defective and bad. And as soon as somebody sees me, they're not going to want to be around me. And this is like exactly like nail on the head that I've had thousands of conversations with dismissive avoidance about over the years. And it's the same

thing. They're so afraid to be seen. And I think that there's a lot of like, you know, animosity sometimes towards avoiding an attachment style. Fearful, avoidant and dismissal avoidant. And this is not me saying, like, oh, they're all perfect. Don't ever, you know, hold them accountable for their behaviors. Like, holding people accountable for the difference of behaviors is actually a really important part of growth in relationships and being able to have boundaries and enforce our needs and communicate them. Like, those are all extremely important things. But we also have to have. of empathy at the same time for other people's experiences and what they would have gone through as children as well. And I'm curious, what would your response to be? Because I get this question often,

and it's like, we all know what my response usually is. But what is your response to the people, especially the anxious folks that are like, well, why won't they avoid and let me in? Why don't they just talk to me and just tell me what's going on? Well, they don't communicate and they pull away. I feel like that comes from a lot of the anxious folks. Like they don't get it. And I get it, rightfully so. Like, you don't understand because it's not how we operate, right? We are, blah, let me throw it out there. Let me get it out of my head because I'm going to fucking freak out if I don't, which isn't necessarily the thing to do, right? But I would be curious, like, what is something that we can at least maybe help people understand a little bit more

of like, it's not about you? The first thing is that like we all have core wounds. So our core wounds are our greatest fears that we basically adopt because of conditioning in our relationships. And so the dismissal avoidant, their big core wounds are, I will be seen as shameful if I open up or defective. And they also fear being trapped and they fear being weak or stupid if they're vulnerable or losing respect. Like they have these big core wounds that are attached there. And so that's what they're living from. And what I often say to individuals who may be on the anxious side of their relationship is like, look, you want to start and you want to set a deadline if you're not happy in the relationship. If you're not seeing growth, if you're not seeing

momentum, if you're not getting your needs met, you shouldn't stay in a relationship that's not fulfilling. Nobody should. But you don't want to just up and run away. And you also don't want to fall into the trap, which I know you don't, but probably a lot of people do, where they, because they're feeling so much anxiety in the relationship, they don't take accountability for their own communication. And so what happens is if you take a partner who's hyper-sensitive to criticism, like a dismissive avoidant, and then you say, you never spend enough time with me, you don't ever text me back, you don't do this, you don't do that. And may not seem like a big deal, it may seem like you're just expressing your emotions, but they are taking that as like,

I am defective at my core, like a character assassination. that's how it lands for them. And then the tragic part is it becomes this vicious cycle, where you feel extremely unseen and unheard because every time you try to communicate, the person shuts down more and it seems like you're less seen and less hurt and less valued in the relationship. But what's actually happening is that delivery of the communication is not happening correctly, which is then triggering their deep shame wounds, which is then disconnecting you further and allowing for that vicious cycle to take place. So I often give people like three really easy communication steps when they're trying to improve the

cycle. The first one is something called positive framing. And it's a difference between saying, you don't care, you never spend enough time with me, versus saying, hey, I miss you. I feel a little disconnected this week. I'd love for us to do something fun. Let's plan for something on Saturday. And that way, it's like, okay, you're saying what you want. And there's no room for it to be taken as a criticism. So that's us actually communicating our needs properly. And that's called, again, positive framing. Number two, I would see this all the time when I worked in private practice. I would constantly see people say things too ambiguously. And dismissal avoidance, especially,

but fearful avoidance too, dismissal avoidance don't have modeling for given exchange and relationships. They don't have a lot of modeling for reciprocity. They had, you know, modeling for more counterdependent relationships. Like you do your thing. We'll do ours, you know, parents and child. And we'll come together from time to time and sort of support each other. And we're looking for interdependence,

where we can have a relationship to self and relationship to each other and lean on each other simultaneously. And so what happens is oftentimes this is whence get this big core fear of being incapable or not good enough of doing a healthy relationship. And so they easily feel kind of frozen. And when they feel like that, they'll just shut down. So when we're communicating, one thing we also have to do is be very specific. I call this step, like paint a picture of what you're looking for. If you say to an avoidance, hey, I want support. And then they're like, what does that look like? What does that mean? For one person, it's like taking the

trash out. And for another person, it's like cooking breakfast or writing a nice letter or being more validating or more affectionate. Like, it can mean so many things. So to prevent that freeze mode coming up with a dismissible avoidant, you paint a picture of what it looks like. Hey, I would love more support in this relationship. That looks like taking the trash out on Thursday. Right? Like if you're very specific, it goes a very long way. And the third thing that's so important is that we have to remember we've all been programmed. We've been programmed for a very long time and conditioned about what we think relationships look like. So when you start communicating, true embodied communication is not, oh, it communicated once and now the person should remember

forever and never forget. True embodied communication means we can see our needs through. If somebody never makes an effort at all and you've communicated 10 or 15 times, okay, they're not your person. But if somebody is making an effort and you see the needle loving and you see momentum and then they falter, we can't personalize it. They have decades of their own programming. So we have to through repetition and emotion help to recondition the concept of what a relationship looks like by reminding somebody, seeing our needs through, letting them know who we are and what we're looking for, and that ultimately those three things will help you bridge and build connection if you have different rules for what you think connection looks like from your own conditioning and also

stop the avoidant from personalizing things so they don't shut down in a way that feels so personal to you. Beautifully said. As you were talking, I was like, oh, I hope she hits on that last note because something that we need to drill into everyone's head is like, can an anxious and avoid in partner work? Of course they can. I am living proof of that. Welcome to my relationship. But what is the underbelly of it all is it's the way that you communicate. It's the way that you express yourself. It's the way that you come to your partner. It can't always be, you don't fucking text me enough and you don't do this and you don't do that. It's like, I'm sorry. In what world is that ever going to lead to results? And sometimes I wish that the anxious folk could

stop for a second and hear themselves because it's like if I had someone speak to me like that, even as a secure more securely attached human being now, I would instantly be like, yeah, no, thank you. Because there's a way that you communicate. Instead of going to somebody of like you, you, you, you, how about we come with I? I don't feel like I'm necessarily a priority to you. Maybe I'm not picking up on that correctly, but what it would make me feel really good is if we did this. Or hey, I know that texting might not be your thing. It kind of is my thing. Is there anything that we could do to bridge the gap? Like what would make us both feel? comfortable, what would make us both feel secure. That's what Ryan and I did. When he set the boundary,

this is not a sign of my disinterest, not a big texter, would much rather spend time with you. I could very easily have been like, fuck this guy. You don't text me every day. You don't want it. But instead, I was like, wait, hold the phone. He shows up. He's very consistent. He, when he says he's going to call, he calls. When he makes a plan, he shows up. When we're together, I contact body language. He's asking questions. He doesn't shy away from a question. Okay. So he just shuts down when we get into a little bit of any kind of triggering. I can work with that because I know how to be like, hey, babe, I can see it. You're shutting down. I'm here if you want to talk. If not, do you want any space right now? I don't internalize and personalize the fact that my partner is going through

something in the same way, an anxious person cannot automatically assume that the other person is to blame because they're having an internal body experience. We can't always look at everybody else is to blame. And I think, to your point, if somebody storms off and walks off, Every time I'm like, hey, can I share something with you? And they walk off. Yeah, you bet your bottom dollar. I'm not fucking dealing with that. Get gone.

I'll hold the door open for you. But I hear this day and a day, well, I already said my needs. Why do I have to repeat myself? I said it once. Why do I have to say it again? Did anything in the world get done because somebody said it once? To me personally, if I say I'm going to do something, do you think I do every single thing I say I'm going to do simply because I said it once?

My partner coming to me and telling me, hey, Sab, you've said the same thing six times. in the last hour. Am I going to stop and be like, well, fuck you, that's who I am. No, instead, I'm like, oh, shit, I didn't realize I'm on loop. I'm so sorry. You're right. Like, thank you for bringing that to my attention. That doesn't mean that in a week, I'm not going to do that loop again. But if he didn't have any patience for me, I'd be Upshits Creek without a paddle. And to me, I'm so glad that we had to have a little bit of a talk. And like, I'll even give like a quick example of like how to actually talk to somebody that's a little bit more avoidant when you have anxiety. So yesterday, before we, we were going to go to

walk the dog. And Ryan's very, here's my schedule. here's what I said. If I say I'm doing this in two minutes, two minutes comes, I'm doing it. Okay. I know that about him. That's his drama. And right after our trash ended and he was like, right, let's take the dog out. And I was like, okay. And as he pops up, he gets the leash on, doesn't really consult with me. It's going to happen right that second. And so I come and I was like, oh, wait, are we going to go for a long walk? And he was like, yeah, he has to poop. I said, okay, let me use the bathroom. And all of a sudden, he's like, oh, I have the leash on. Come on. And I sound. And I was like, I have to use the bathroom. I was like, hey. And he was

God, and I said, well, why don't you just take the dog outside? And so then he took him out, and I just thought he had left without me. And so I stood there and he comes, are you coming? God, come on. And so I went outside and I needed a minute. I was not going to react. I needed to see how it landed. And I was really stopping. And I was like, okay, Sab, what's coming up for you? Well, that didn't feel good. I didn't really like that. And so about five minutes go by and I'm just in my head processing. And he's like, hey, what's going on? Acting like nothing happened. And I was like, since you asked. And I turned and I said, hey, I got to be honest with you. I understand you wanted to take the dog out. I get it.

But here's the reality. The dog went out two hours ago, and I actually had a need that I needed to use the restroom. I have my period. I'm going through my own thing, and I really needed to have that moment. And in that moment, you were incredibly dismissive of me. You really made me, I felt like I was a six-year-old being reprimanded by my father, and I'm not your younger sister. You cannot speak to me like that. Moving forward, it's okay for you to wait five seconds. Have the dog sit, wait for me, and I will come and join you. And I said, and if not, communicate with me that you'd like to take the dog without me. And I said, but the way that you spoke to me is inappropriate and I will not accept that.

And he stopped and he was like, you're fucking right. And he just stopped and he was like, I am so sorry. He was like, I can absolutely see how I did that. And I do need to do better because you're not my younger sister. You're my partner and your needs actually do matter to me. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Now, was that the first time I've ever told him that? No.

But there's progress, right? Like there's an accountability. There's an ownership. Okay. And then even today, he realized he was about to. And he was like, well, no, I need to be patient. You need another five minutes. No problem.

We have to see. progress. And that's exactly what you're looking for. And there's sometimes that people are going to see and dismissive ones can be impatient like that, right? They can have those moments. So my husband, so we've been together for almost 10 years and he was dismissive avoidant when we met and I was still fearful of waiting when we met. So we did a lot of these things and the trial and error. And there's so many similar patterns. But one thing I also find to be so helpful. So for sure, accountability and honestly, dismissive avoidance are generally like quite logical, rational creatures. So they respond. on well to carefully discuss things. Like, hey, that didn't feel good for me. I had to go to the

back room. You know, in the future, I need more patience because that's not acceptable. And being able to say that, they, when they have a chance to mull it over, generally respond exceptionally well to those things. And that's one like myth on the internet is that they all dismiss all the time. Like, no, if you communicate your needs and hold your boundaries in a healthy way and you communicate in a way that's not like assaulting them, calling them names or meeting them up or being critical and not that everybody does that, but back in, I was fearful, but I'd work on that back of the day. You know, if you even be like really clear with your communication and kind, it goes a long way. And one thing that I always get people to do with DA's as well,

practice using what I call asking for empathy statements. So because they won't naturally express empathy out loud, it doesn't mean they're not feeling it. But if you want that, if you're needing that after a situation like that, you can say, hey, can you see how that would feel from my perspective if you were me? And it's causing somebody to have. And it's causing somebody to have to put themselves in your shoes to think back to that situation and then be able to move ahead. And one thing that I think is so beautiful about dating somebody with a different attachment style when you're still insecurely attached, if both people are willing to do the work, exactly what each person needs to still work on to heal the relationship also just so happens

to be the very thing that helps them feel the relationship to self. And when I know my husband, I had been a lot of work. I wasn't super fearful of wouldn't any longer, but I still had to like remnants of it. And he was pretty dismissive avoidant. And, and he helped me see like, okay, I don't have as many four wounds. I wasn't being as triggered as much in the relationship, which is a big part of what I try to get people to focus on working through so we're not as triggered. But when I went into things that were upsetting me in the relationship, they were needs based. I wasn't good enough at communicating my needs and taking out more space. And so what I would feel in that relationship would be the sense of like, things go hit way too often or I'm not getting

to like get my needs met. And so, I told myself, I was like, okay, this is going to work. I'm going to do everything I can to communicate my needs better and to have healthier boundaries. And he's either going to show up or he's not. And what I saw is that he showed up with like flying frigging colors, like made such an effort showed up like over the mood. And that was so healing for me.

And I was also healing for him because he got to like tune in and practice compromising and being more available and also receiving better and communicating back. And so I just want to say for anybody, listening. It's such an important thing to be able to do that work, everything you shared, things that I've just shared, because that will help move the needle on that connection. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on anti-a-sulsafeet.

acids, ginger tea, and milk. Haboniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. It's like that old out. It's like, oh, you have to be healed and I have to stay single until I'm healed. I'm like, that doesn't exist. There is never, I mean, even just before we came on,

I was talking to Taizza of like my issues and my insecurities because you're human. There is never going to be a like, you're healed. Here's your diploma. Okay, thank you. Now go off in the world. It's like, I got years of trauma. I got years of pent up shit. but we have to also take it progress in our perfection.

But it's such a beautiful experience. That's why I'm like, stop avoiding avoidance. I stop being like, oh, I don't date avoidance. I only date this. You're just, it's like, good luck, all right? Like, there's a lot of people that are avoidant. Like, it's a lot more common than I think. And so I'm glad we're normalizing the amount of healing that can really come.

And again, by no means am I saying go date people that don't satisfy your needs that are repeating you like shit, that are breadcrumming you. Like, no, it's not about that. But it's about if somebody's just maybe like not as expressive, but you see a lot of, you see progress or wait, wow, they're opening up a little more. Like maybe just allow somebody to fucking open up over time. And as the anxious folk, we don't need everything done immediately. Now, I did have a question for you because I get this all the time.

And again, I have my own thoughts on it, but I'm curious yours. And I'm sure you've heard this. Oh, I'm disorganized. And I'm like, oh, are you? What do you mean by that? Well, with some people I'm anxious and then with some people I'm avoided. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no. It's not like a light switch.

You don't just decide with this person I'm going to be super anxious. And then with this person I'm avoided because I'm like, usually, what I hear from them and I'm like, are you anxious with the person that wasn't giving it to you what you want? But then you're avoidant with the person that was giving you what you want. But I was curious, your thoughts on that when you hear things like that. Like, I'm assuming that's the incorrect use of the disorganized, that it's not just like a quick light switch you can turn on and off and decide who you're anxious or avoidant with. So here is what actually causes us to be able to view the differences between anxious and avoidant and disorganized attachment styles.

it is the ratio at which they activate versus deactivate in ongoing similar relationships. So let's just say, for example, we have an anxious person, okay? It doesn't mean that because somebody's anxious that they won't ever in their mind feel slighted and want to pull back. They can feel like that. They can feel offended and want to pull back temporarily. But their overarching coping mechanism will be to activate. So they may pull back, they may go in and one for a second, they may shut down just briefly,

but overarching, they will keep trying to. activate and gain more proximity and closeness. And it's really what their internal relationship is to it. Okay. If you look at a dismissible wouldn't, dismissive abridens are not robots. Dismissive abys can actually feel relationship anxiety. They can feel like, oh my gosh, even if they're like, they're trying to date somebody and they ask them out and maybe they're waiting for a text bat to see if the person's going to say yes or no. They're not a robot. Like, they're not going to not feel any emotions. But what will happen is when they feel anxious, their behaviors and their internal reality will cause them to deactivate. So they'll start going, oh, you know, it might not work out anyways. Maybe

they're not the person. I don't really care if they want to date me or not. So they'll do things to try to minimize their attachment needs to other people. Well, anxious preoccupied, we'll try to maximize their attachment needs. Disorganized attachment style in the same relationship, a romantic relationship with a partner, they will see that they activate and deactivate back and forth on an ongoing basis. And that's with the same type of person. So you'll see generally that there can be moments where you're really clinging and really needing that, like, closest in connection and really fear and abandonment. And there's times where they will absolutely deactivate and shut down. But if somebody's just finding themselves in that situation, often what they're saying when they're like, oh yeah,

I activate with some people and deactivate with others. Well, you could be a secure person, for example, and somebody's overwhelming you, so you pull back. And you're with an anxious person, And that person's like, you know, they're engulfing you and so you need to self-protect or somebody's avoidant and you may feel a little bit more anxiety. So it's not about your feelings. It's about your behaviors, number one. And with disorganized attachment styles, you will see that there's a lot more volatility. There's a lot more core wounds. There's a lot of hypervigilance. Sensitivity to betrayal is the biggest core wound of a disorganized attachment style followed by abandonment, trapped. The needs that you'll see in relationships are seemingly very contradictory.

You'll see that there's a lot of needs for freedom and independence and autonomy, but depths and intimacy and connection. And they seem to sort of have this walking contradictory side to them. But two things can coexist simultaneously. You can have this deep, deep fear of abandonment and this deep fear of being engulfed or trapped in a wrong relationship. What I see more often than not is I'm like, okay, yeah, let's talk about, do you get activated? Oh, well, they don't call it. I freak out. And it's like, oh, well, yeah, that person's like super consistent.

So I'm more avoidant. And it's like, again, it's just, I think to your point, it's like more often than not, or especially like when you're not necessarily getting your way, it's like, how do you respond, right? Are you going to just be like, oh, I'm just going to go inward? It's like, or am I more expressive? These are much more my behaviors than how you're just feeling for a moment in time. Exactly. And like, I'll be honest, as somebody who like has so much anxiety in life, when I was dating, yeah, when a guy, like heterosexual women, so I'm going to talk on those norms. But when I had a guy that was playing the game, hot and cold, not,

because of course I was super anxious. But then, yeah, when there was the guy that was like super consistent and lovely, when I was really in my shit, obviously when I became a much healthier human, I was fucking loving it. And now we are here. But yeah, I became more avoidant, more so because I was like, ew, what, you see me, you see my value. Like, I didn't see my own value.

So how was I going to receive love? And that's why I was quote unquote more avoidant. But it was more just, I wasn't able to receive a healthy partner at that time. So that's how it manifested for me. And how you behave in relationships with activating or deactivating strategies is different than what you're attracted to. So what happens, one of the number one things that actually drives attraction at the subconscious level and that we'll invest in for the longest period of time is people who mirror back to us, our subconscious comfort zone, of how we treat ourselves. So what happens,

and you can see this really clearly, is like an anxious proactive by detachment style, they are often people pleasing everybody and they're trying to win everybody over. So they are deprioritizing their own feelings and needs or dismissing their own feelings, needs, and boundaries in favor trying to get closer to others. So what that actually means is what's most familiar, because at the end of the day, the subconscious mind runs the show. It's responsible for 95 plus percent of all of our beliefs, emotions, decisions. And so what happens is your subconscious mind says what's familiar is safe and thus we will survive. Our conscious mind can say, red flag, this isn't good. Our subconscious mind will just invest in what's comfortable, what's familiar. So if an

age is preoccupied is dismissing and avoid. themselves because they're busy people, pleasing other people, who are you attracted to? People who will dismiss and avoid you back. And so that's a driver of attraction, which means that if somebody before we've done enough work and healing comes along that wants to be really stable and consistent and show up, oftentimes you'll actually hear anxious attachment styles and even careful avoidance. And sometimes dismissable words too say, oh, this is boring. This isn't that interesting to me. I'm not that enticed or excited. And sure, they're can actually be a lack of connection. There's two other things that drives attraction,

which is trait variety, people expressing your repressed traits. Like, if somebody, you know, historically when we're out trying to survive in the world, thousands of years ago, if somebody really smart and somebody really strong peril, they have a better chance of surviving. So we're actually wired over time biologically to be attracted to people who express differences from us. It's where you hear that, like, very common thing opposites attract. And we're also going to fall likely in limerance with people. This is another, the third major part of attraction, with people who meet our deeply unmet needs for childhood. So if we felt unseen our whole lives and then somebody makes us feel really seen,

that can feel like crack. Like it can feel really stimulating. But those first two of the traits and the needs are very dating stage, very early stage attraction. What ultimately will invest in is what makes us feel most comfortable in regards to how we treat ourselves. And so you'll see two, which is really interesting, and I know I'm totally going down a rabbit hole here for a second, but what you'll see that's so interesting is

a lot of times the things that were even really attracted to in the dating stage, like, oh my gosh, this person's so assertive, it's so attractive. In the power struggle stage of relationships, it goes dating, honeymoon power struggle stage, will then find extremely triggering. We'll be like, oh, my gosh, they never compromise. They never make an effort. Or a dating stage will be like, oh, they're so easy going. It's so attractive.

And then power struggle stage comes along the line. We're like, they're lazy. They don't care. And so, you know, what we actually have to do is learn to integrate some of those traits from somebody so that we can also be a sort of two and create space for compromises. Or we can be more easygoing and be more accepting. Like all the things we're attracted to and other people are also telling us really deep things about the relationship we have to ourselves.

Until we do that inner work, then we'll often be in a situation where we may be really attracted to something in early stages that can sort of bite us later unless we're learning to see, hey, what is it here for me that's causing that attraction and also show up to bridge that gap and create that subconscious comfort zone in the relationship to ourselves. With the disorganized attachment, let's say, is the road to healing, how does that look? Like, is it different? Of course, like when for me with somebody with that really, really big anxious attachment, my first thing is I'm like, oh, we need to understand like what's happening in your body. Whoa, what's the narrative? Where do we learn? All of those kind of behaviors. But I was curious,

you know, for somebody who is really dealing with that amalgamation, does it look different for them? Or are we really starting to see that like a lot of these insecure attachments, styles have a decent similarity in as far as the healing journey. What we've done is been studied for the last 10 years or so like the process, the journey and actually like how we can replicate results of healing for insecure attachment styles. And it really breaks down to a few core pillars. One is reprogramming our core wounds. So this idea that I'll be abandoned, betrayed, those are very solvable problems, but we need 21 days of a recondition in the subconscious mind. So that's number one. Number two, we learn what our needs are and how to meet them ourselves. This is a big part of self-soothing. And it's also how we

prime our subconscious mind, because we have that subconscious comfort only operate from, to actually be willing and feel confident to then step three, express these needs to other people. Because until we're meeting our own needs and having our needs met as a norm, then we'll feel like, oh, we're not worthy of having our needs met. Or what if I express my needs and somebody rejects them? So we get all afraid until we prime by doing the inner work first. So core wounds learn to actually meet your own needs and discover what they are. Communicate your needs in healthy ways to other people. Regulate your nervous system because that's a big part of healing that happens with just a daily, you know, warning or evening practice and then learn to have healthier boundaries in our lives.

And if we really do those five things right, then our attachment style will heal. Now, attachment cells have different needs and pureful avoidance or disorganized attachment cells tend to have different core wounds. Like we have a lot of core wounds until we do the work. We have all the anxious side and all the avoidance side and our own. So there's lots of work in there to do. But you can stack your poor wounds. You can do multiple wounds at the same time as you recondition them. And then it really just follows that same journey. Learn your needs. Meet your own. Communicate them. Learn to have healthy boundaries and do the purpose system work. And until we actually do that inner work, we won't feel comfortable or safe,

receiving our needs fully from other people. And if we do, even if there are things like reassurance or validation, unless we have like a pattern to act at like on a daily basis, reassuring and validating ourselves across 21 days, which is that time period to reprogram. You know what happens to people who are like, oh, I need reassurance? They want it from the outside world. Their subconscious mind is not primed to receive it. And it's like a bucket with a hole in the bottom. So somebody says, oh, I need reassurance.

And the person's reassuring. And it feels really good for just a moment while it's coming in the bucket. And then it goes at the bottom. And then they go, do they mean it? What if they change their mind? Can I really trust that they feel this way? Do they have the promotives? because the subconscious mind is going to reject what's not a part of its subconscious comfort zone

or place of familiarity so that it can stay safe. And so we have to do that inner work with our own needs first and we have to make it a conditioned pattern across 21 days. And then we feel worthy of receiving it. We are actually attracted to people who will meet those needs back. And when somebody does show up and meet them for us, they stay in the bucket and we actually experience more long-term and trusting fulfillment from what somebody gets to it. I'm so grateful we could have this conversation I'm so grateful to have you in this community and to be able to help people because that's what you're doing

and I'm just fucking stoked. So for anybody, where can they find you? How can they find you, work with you, all of those fun things? Yeah, so I'm at on YouTube. I put a daily content on YouTube. It's Personal Development School dash Chais Gibson.

One Instagram, which is at Personal Development underscore school, which is starting to be more active over there. And then I'm at personal development school. com as well, if anybody wants to take an attachment style quiz or anything like that. Awesome.

And everything will be linked in the show notes because I do know a lot of people are going to want to. So I'm excited and thank you again. Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast chatting with you as always and appreciate this.