The Sabrina Zohar Show - 95: Catfishing, High Value Dating, and Spilling The Tea With Kamie Crawford

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

Joining Sabrina today is Kamie Crawford, diving deep into relationships, touching on dating dynamics, attachment styles, and red flags. Kamie reflects on her anxious attachment stemming from an absent parent and how therapy has helped her move towards a secure attachment. Sabrina and Kamie agree that while disagreements are natural, constant arguing in relationships isn't healthy. Kamie, who dates someone with a child, emphasizes respecting the child and communicating openly with both parents. The two discuss the importance of taking things slow, not rushing into relationships, and being mindful of red flags. In their 30s, both women now prioritize meaningful qualities in partners over superficial traits they may have focused on in their 20s. They also touch on the growing confusion around gender roles in dating, where some men believe they are the prize, and how bad advice from people with no relationship experience can misguide. On the topic of catfishing, they urge caution online, recommending looking into someone before meeting them, especially if they’re new. Ultimately, they stress the importance of investing in yourself, setting healthy boundaries, and choosing partners who genuinely align with your values rather than succumbing to societal pressures or superficial expectations. Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Saving those children is how we all go home. From binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Hi, babes, welcome back. I got to figure out a new intro, right? Like I say hello, hello, and I'm like, I, y'all might be sick of me, but here we are, right? I'm so excited. We have another week together. And today, we have a very special guest. We got my girl, my friend, my friend, I could say that because I love her like a friend and I love her as a human. Cammy Crawford is here. the one and only Cammy from Catfish and one of the most beautiful, stunning, incredible women I have met inside and out. Let's not even, we're not even talking about the exterior. And we're talking about catfishing, dating somebody with a child, red flags and relationships. And it's just, this was one of my favorite episodes because we were able to just chat and have fun. And I'm hopeful that you guys really learn a lot from this because Camry is so wise and so insightful. And she has seen a lot as well,

even in Catfish and doing the show. But she's just an amazing human being. So I'm super excited. I'm on her podcast relationship. She's on the Sabrina Zohar show. So we're having a fun little swap. And I'm just so excited for you guys to learn more about Cammy and to have more time with her. So guys, as always, thank you, thank you for all the support. Thank you for the reviews. Please, please, guys, don't forget, rate and review the show wherever you listen.

Spotify, YouTube, Apple, Amazon doesn't really matter. And please don't forget to share it with your friends. And follow the show. If you click follow, it'll auto download the episodes for you and you'll never miss a week with us. And guys, as always, if you need anything, link in bio, link in show notes, where am I? And the link in the show notes will bring you to the stand store, which has some free guides. You can work one-on-one, ask a question, join the breakup course or the foundation course. If you bundle them, you save some loot.

And there's just something for everybody. So whatever you guys need, it's there. And last but not least, thank you to our sponsors for supporting us. Guys, please, if you're listening and you're not ad-free, please support our sponsors. They're all brands I personally work with in you. So I would never steer you guys wrong. And if you guys are ad-free, thank you for being a subscriber. Don't forget, you guys get to choose what you want the episodes to be on.

So you get to ask me in Tech Guy anything. And you can request custom episodes whatever you want to see. You let us know. So guys, thank you, thank you, as always. Thank you for everything. And thank you for showing up as yourself. So you allow me to show up as myself as well. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

Cammy Girl. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show. I'm so excited to have you. I'm so excited to be here. I can't believe we get to do this twice in like the same year. I'm so excited because your podcast relationship, one of my faves, I'll be on there soon. And then people can come and listen to you here, different topics, which will be fun.

Yes. But for anybody who doesn't know who you are, which I don't know who those people are, could you please just welcome, introduce yourself so that everyone knows who Cammy is? Yes. Well, I am Cammy Crawford. I am that girl. I am a TV host. I host the show Catfish, but then I also host the show Are You the One and X on the Beach?

and then I have a podcast called Relationship, which is a Relationship Advice podcast where we talk about all things relationships, the good, the bad, and straight up shitty. That's my little Jackline. I hope you're impressed by it because I came up with it myself. I was like, that was off the tongue and beautiful. Thank you.

And yeah, I mean, I've done like a lot in the influencer space. I was a beauty queen back in the day. I'm a former Miss Teen USA. There's a lot of things that like I think about, like I feel like as we get through this conversation, more things are going to pop up. because I just forget sometimes the things that I've done because I've always been someone who wears a million different hats. I totally understand that. Now, did you ever notice, because

like, you were single, you dated? Yeah. Did you ever notice, like, did you lean, secure, anxious, avoidant? Like, how do you normally find yourself leaning? Because it's like, you are such a beautiful, confident woman, but it's like, what's under the hood? Like, I think that's what this show is really about is like, let's be real. It's like, how have you, what have, where have you kind of laid on that? I think I thought that I was secure for a long time. And then I had, had someone on my podcast that was an attachment style expert. And I realized that I had some anxious qualities about me. I grew up, my biological father left when I was five. And the things, it's so crazy, the things that come with that, like the things that come with not having a present parent

in your life. And I don't know why I say that it's crazy because obviously, like, that's what it would result in. But I think daddy issues, quote unquote, for lack of a better phrase or term that we've been able to create for all of these years somehow, some way it always lands on the child's fault. But it's actually the fault of the parent. It manifests itself in different ways. And so, you know, for some of my friends who had similar things going on in their past and, you know, with their parent, it would be, you know, that they were more promiscuous. For me, it was very, like, no one is allowed in. And if you think about leaving, I will open the door for you. Like, you don't even have to worry about it. But then I also realized that when I was in certain situations,

even now in my very healthy relationship, which I feel like teaches you a lot about yourself, probably more than you even realize, I realized that any instance where it seemed like my boyfriend wasn't on my side about something or, you know, leaving during an argument, like those things send me into orbit. So I realized that there were some anxious attachment style things that were popping up. But I think I'm moving more into secure, you know, through therapy and just like growth and recognizing it, I think is like the first step. If you can't even recognize it, you're fucked off the bat, right? You're like, ugh. It's the same. Like when I met Ryan, because like, I don't know about you. I always like to ask as well, I'm like, what annoys you on the internet these days?

Like, what are those misconceptions? Everything. Right. Yeah. life story. For me, though, like, there's a huge creator that everybody knows, made a video of how, like, avoidance are just the worst people, and they're the dangerous ones and all this. And it's like, I'm sorry. One, what I hear is, so anybody with anxiety, oh, no, you're fine. Oh, yeah, everything you do, all of your protest behavior, all of your bullshit. She was her, so I'm not exactly a calling shade to anybody besides myself. I was, I had copious amounts of bullshit, my protest behavior, the way that I would behave. And so when I met my partner, because I'm curious with your boyfriend where he kind of leans, but when I read Ryan,

it wasn't that all of a sudden you're like, oh, secure, now I'm secure. No, ta-da. No. No. But you start to learn like, oh, like you said, you walking out in an argument, that doesn't work. Right. So this person doesn't walk out and now you can talk and you're like, oh, so that's how. And I feel like we also need to kind of normalize that like I don't want to hear anybody

diagnose if somebody walks out in the middle of an argument or if, you know, that's just disrespectful. Yeah, right. It's fucked up. No wonder you're going to feel anxious. Yeah. Right. So to me, where's your boyfriend lie? I think he's probably on the same side as me. Like he's also done a lot of self-work too, which is super helpful. And he's a dad. He has a teenage daughter. And so I think that that also, you know, kind of paints a good picture of like how he responds to me even sometimes, even when I am being a little bratty like a teenage girl. He knows he knows how to deal with it. And he knows how to like. He knows how to, like, he knows how to, like, he knows how to, like, he knows how to, like, he knows how to, like, he knows how to, work through conversations. But he too has had situations where, like, I might trigger him in a way and we have conversations about it. Like, I tell my friends, my sisters, like, you don't

have to fight in relationships. Like, that's not... You can disagree. You can disagree. We disagree. But we don't argue in the sense of, like, we're yelling at each other. If we disagree, our conversations of something like a quote-unquote argument would be like, I really didn't like when you said that, that really hurt my feelings. I don't think that you meant to hurt my feelings, but it actually did, and here's why. Those are the conversations that we have. And I think that we have, we have very similar ways of communicating, which I think is probably based in our upbringings in our past and parent trauma and things like that. And I think that it just works, it works versus working against each other. We work together really well on that. Which is so beautiful. And like something

to highlight to is like, yeah, the guys, the people that you're dating that walk out or they do that, it's like, stop accepting it, stop allowing it. Yeah. And get really excited about like a partner that could show up for you, a partner that'll be consistent. I know it sounds crazy. I did not have a father like that either. Yeah. But it does exist. We just have to be open. Now I'm curious, though, dating someone with a kid. She's older. So it's not like you had a child. But what was that experience like? Because there's a lot of my girls that are single and like, how do you date with a child, the timing, all that? Like, did that impact with like scheduling? Well, you know what's crazy. I grew up, even though, like I said, my biological father left when I was five. My mom

married my dad who raised me when I was around five as well. They met when I was two. They got married when I was five. And my dad, so my mom came in with me. My dad also came in with a daughter, and then they had four together. So we already have a blended family. But our parents always taught us to only have children within a marriage and not to have, like, don't date anyone with children. from outside of your relationship. It was, like, ingrained in my brain my whole entire life. And so when I'm... But I've never really felt that way.

Like, I wasn't really aligned with that necessarily. I think once I turned 30, I was like, okay, I'm in the dating space. Everybody, for the most part, it seems like has at least one. Right. When you're in your 30s, you're like, okay. Yeah. I mean, if you, like, if I'm 30 and I meet a guy who's, like, 38, and he's never been married, never been engaged, doesn't have any children.

I'm looking at him a little crazy because I'm like, what's the problem? Why did anybody want to have your baby, sir? So I just, I never really felt that way, like the same way as my parents did. I think that they were saying it more so out of like fear and experience and like, you know, the drama that comes along with some of those experiences. I don't know.

Immediately when my boyfriend told me, which it was our first date, I was on board. Like, I was like, if anybody knows how to understand a child who is in this kind of situation, who is between blended families, it's me. Like, I get it, 1,000 percent. And I was very adamant from the beginning because I felt like when I was a kid, I didn't have a choice as to whether or not I wanted to meet the women that my biological father was dating. Every time I would go on visitation with him, he would have another woman there and she would have a kid. Me too. Is there a term for that?

Just a shitty father. I was going to say bullshit bearers. I had the same, like, to the point where my mom, the pendulum swung, my mom never brought anybody that she did. She did like three people. She was not, because she wanted family unit, all that. That was her trauma. My dad is to the point where like, he'll be with a woman and then on Tinder in front

of you being like, what do you think of her? And I'm like, oh my God, you're the people I avoid like the fucking plague. He'll have multiple girlfriends every night. There's a new woman that shows up. It's our family vacation. It was the first time all of us were together in like 10 years, and he's bringing a random woman every night. So I totally can understand. And I can...

It's crazy. And that's why... Did you know psychology today actually recommends that you should wait nine to 12 months in order to introduce your child? I think young children, a thousand percent. Yes. Because how do you know that this person is even normal? Like I... And how do you know that they're safe?

Like, when I look back on it now, I think as an adult woman, there's no... way in fucking hell. Not a shot. I would ever be with a man who was so comfortable to bring me around his young, three-year-old child and just dump my child with them. Like, that was my experience. I would be locked in a room with some random stranger's child who only knows what they've been exposed to.

Luckily, nothing ever happened to me. I was never put in any kind of unsafe situation. But imagine had that child experienced anything abuse-wise and then inflicted that. upon me, you put the child in a really bad position and an unsafe territory. And it was something that I had to kind of confront, I think, within the past few years, because I just never really thought about it. When I first got the opportunity to meet my boyfriend's daughter, I was very adamant that I wanted it to be her choice, that she could make the decision. And I was also very vocal about the fact that I wanted her mom to also know that she was going to be meeting me

because my mom had no idea. I didn't tell my mom until literally a couple of years ago what was happening when I would go and visit my biological father on those visitations because she would have burnt the fucking house down. She would have not. She would have been like, wait, real quick, where did you and your boyfriend meet? We met on Raya. So you did. Okay, you met online.

Yeah, okay. We met online. Same. We met on hand. So I'm like, I don't think it's the end of the world. I'm sorry. It's not. It's not.

You can meet somebody online and they could have kids. Yeah. And guess what? Everything's great. I know one of my followers she messaged me and she's like, so I got over to the apps and I tried this on like in-person dating that everyone keeps saying and she's like,

it's the same fucking thing. It's just we're meeting in person. I was like, thank you. I don't know where this stigma came. Sorry, I know. Side track. There's a lot of creeps on there and a lot of weirdos. And I've heard the hinge voice recordings

that people can leave and they're very, very scary. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa. Whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon.

Dating with a child, either whether you have one or you're dating somebody with one, I believe the way that you did it is so important. share because it really is respected. It really is making sure because at the end of the day, the fucking kid, you chose to have a child. Yeah. So please care about the child. Yes. And if you're choosing to date someone with a child, then you choose what comes with that. So if, you know, if for whatever reason, like luckily in our situation, his daughter was so excited to meet me and like we spent the whole summer together and now we're spending another summer together and like we're great. But in the event that she said, no, I would have respected that. That wouldn't have been

anything against him or her or her mom or anything. She is him. She is half of him. And because of that, I will love her and I will respect her regardless of anything. For me, it was just like a no-brainer. And I think he really appreciated that because we've talked about the fact that, you know, he has been on dates with women where he mentions the fact that he has a daughter and immediately it's like radio silence. Like they're done. And I get that because I have, heard that. But like even with my family, they immediately, once they met him and they knew that this was a thing, they were on board. They've, like, my mom asked about his daughter just as much as she asked about me. Like, you know, it's, it's just, it just works. Yeah, I tell all my friends

to get them Azadi because, how are you going to find that, like, has the emotional, and I'm not saying that all dads have this because my biological father certainly fucking did it. But like, where are you going to find a man who has the emotional intelligence and like the compassion and the patience? My boyfriend never rushes me. He knows if I say I'll be ready in five minutes, I actually mean 20. Yeah, he's like, let me double that, triple that. He understands you. There's never been a time where I'm like in the bathroom getting ready and he's like, babe, like, like, what?

We have to go. He's just like, how much longer do you think? Because he has a daughter. So he's like, this is not my first rodeo. Yeah. I'm with you. I've dated many a men with kids because I came from the same thing with like just like a culture, like a background because I get it.

Like my cousin married a guy with kids and like had to deal with the bullshit that came with it. And sometimes that is, listen, baby mama drama is real. I'm not here to like say that that does not exist. Yeah. But like I do believe, I also think age, right? Yeah. A 16 year old, 15, 16. Right.

It's very different than a two year old that you're like. And I did tell him that if if we had met and she was like a two or three, I would have been like, I really think you should go make things work with her mom. Right. Because I am all about like that. I'm not about people staying in relationships that clearly make them unhappy, but like I'm here for trying to work through things and like work it out. So I think the scenario just was the perfect situation for both of us. You're like me.

We're in our 30s now. What have you seen was the biggest difference between dating in your 20s versus your 30s? You go first. I got it. For me personally, when I was dating in my 20s, I wasn't thinking. long term. Like I wasn't seeing, I was talking about a future with partners that I had before and, you know, relationships that I had before, boyfriends that I had before, but I was not actually thinking about what that would look like. Yeah. Which is kind of crazy to think about.

Like, I talked about marriage with, like, three of my ex-boyfriends, but I never actually thought about what being married to them would be like, what, like, being their wife would be like, with them being my husband would be like, what having kids together would be like, what merging our families together would be like. I never thought about that until I met my boyfriend now. So you know what's interesting, because I've been watching the new Too Hot to Handle. And I don't, I'm not going to be honest, I don't love the way that they shook it up. I don't know if you've watched the new season. They completely changed a lot of things. Like, they all know that they're coming to the retreat. Like, it's all completely different. But the one thing that you notice is a couple of

things. One, don't love the people that they chose. That's more thing. But the second thing is, they're all very young. You can see there's one girl that's 27, and all the other ones are like 22, 23. Why is it whenever there's like a 27-year-old, they act like she's like the old one of the group? Right, yeah, she's over the hell. But you know what I noticed?

So if we look at brain, like I'm big on neuroscience, I've been noking the fuck out on it. So if we look at the brain, the amygdala is growing when you're six, which is where we hold on to fear and kind of like, that's where we can get back to that amygdala hijack is the term, but that's where you kind of feel like a kid, right?

So when you react or you're like, wow, I'm feeling very fanciful like a child. But then the prefrontal cortex, that didn't stop growing until you're 28, which is why when we get into our 30s, we're using logical thinking. So that's why, yeah, you're like, oh, I never really thought of any of those things. It's like, because this wasn't formed. Now the executive functioning is on and you're like, huh, wait, whoa, what does that mean if I say I want to get married to you? Because we've turned on our prefrontal cortex and now that's starting to work. You can see it on the show.

The 22, 23-year-olds are very like, I know this will hurt her, but I'm going to do it anyways because I'm horny. Yeah. Girl that's 27, she stops and you can see her. She's like, but you can see her actually weighing it out. That's so crazy. It's wild. That's why youth is wasted on the young. It is.

But when you're in your 20s, I know for me, like, I was a fucking hot mess. I thought I had all the time in the world. Oh, whatever, I could date all the hotties. You're just chasing after stupid shit. He's hot. He has a six-pack. Until you're in your 30s and you're like, that six-pack went away and is a beer gut now. Yeah.

They lost their fucking hairline. Like all of that. Like so when he has a car, okay? Now you also have a car. Exactly. So what are you going to do? So what are you going to do? But they always talk about like the frontal lobe that doesn't develop until you're 25.

28. Oh, it's 28. Yeah, the prefrontal cortex. So that's that decision making common sense. That's the same thing. Uh-huh. That's why your 30s become totally different. That's what, 29, I don't know if you, for me, I started to feel a little different.

Yes, I did. 30. I was like, yeah. I know what I want. Because your prefrontal cortex is consistently more online. It's fully formed. But then does it change again when you turn like 40? Because women in their 40s talk about how like the whole world opens up for them at 40.

Probably. I've heard 40s or your new 30s. That's what I've heard. Everyone keeps saying how amazing it is. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. I'm excited for it. I was excited for 30.

Same. So the way that my friend, she's Britt Frank, neuropsychotherapist. I talk about it all the time because she's just so fucking brilliant with this. She used an example that made so much fucking sense to me about how this all works and the functioning. Think of it like an office building. Your prefrontal cortex is all the executives at the top that are on their shiny suit. and everybody, and so there are all the camis that are like, I know everything and I know all of this,

and they're controlling everything correctly. But then when you get dysregulated or something causes, you know, your body to feel like there's a threat, when that shuts off, imagine all of that, everything under it is what's controlling. So the inmates are running the asylum. And so that's why all of those parts of you, the 20-year-old, the 22-year-old, the 10-year-old,

they're all coming out because they're trying to have their say. And so now that's why you're like, yeah, you know, actually, no. So when you kind of learn how to regulate, we learn how to turn our prefrontal cortex on, I started to implement future me of like, I don't think, no, you know what, I know I'm going to be tired when I get back from that.

It's not worth me driving for two hours to go do that. Versus when you're 20, you're like, I'll be out all night. Who cares, I have to work in the morning? I'll be fine. That's so true. Isn't it fucking crazy? The shit that I would have done in my early 20s

when I was in college. Like I showed up to class wasted. Wasted. Like alcohol, like I smelled like it because it's coming out of my pores just to do it all over again that night. Yeah, like. Because yolo.

You know, no, but like really, Yolo, you only live once and you should really tone it the fuck down. Yeah, vitamins and some fucking sleep, okay? That's all you need. It's so crazy how, like, everything changes. Everything changes. That's why I will tell my sisters, I'm like, do it while you're young. Yeah, do it while you're young. You're in your 20s, enjoy it.

Your prefrontal cortex isn't done. Just wait. Okay, let's get back to the question I asked you earlier that I, my ADHD segued from. What is shit? Because we've got relationship, right? So you have your own version of talking. talking about stuff. What are things that really piss you off in the dating world right now? I am curious. I hate the fact that I have, and I'm just speaking in the binaries right now, but I hate the fact

that I have so many beautiful female friends who are smart, who are educated, who are hot, who are all of the things, all of the things who cannot go on a good date to save their lives because there are so many men out here, straight men, who think that they are the prize and the princess of the group. Especially in L.A. Like, especially, it's very main character energy? It's very scary to me.

But I have been thinking about this more and more and just trying to, like, I think it's my Libra Moon. I'm just like, what is the reason? Like, why is this happening? I feel like there's so much confusion in, like, roles, quote unquote, and I know people now, like, hate those terms of like, there should be no

roles. Like, it should always be 50-50, blah-da-da. Fuck all that. No. I don't want to be fucking 50-50 with you. 50-50 in the sense that, like, yes, we have 50-50 respect. It's mutual respect. But there are things that I need my man to do. I need my man to open the door. I need my man to get the suitcases out the car. I need my man to reach on the top shelf and get the motherfucking jar or whatever it is. Right. I don't need those responsibilities. Yeah. Okay. I'm cool with my man making me. He makes my drink every morning. He makes it. He does those little things. It's so funny. We have a rule reversal. Like he cooks, he cleans. He does so many things around the house. It's fantastic. Yeah. My man cooks too. All the time.

All the time. Every night you come down and you're like, for me? Yes. Oh, little of me. I'm not going to faint tonight. I'm with you. That is. And like I. A damsel. A do what? I could order in, but here we are. And I think it's so true because, like, I, what I see is a lot of, like, I'll get, somebody wrote in the other day, perfect example of, I think there's a lot of confusion. And he said, I really like this woman I'm dating. Mine, again, we're talking in gender norms because that's just what we're dealing with. But I'm fairly certain if you're a man listening to this, you can apply this to yourself,

depending on who you date. I don't really care as long as they're 18 and older, and they consent. It's all I care about. I really don't. Anything else. It's so sad I have to say 18 and older, but here we are. Yeah, right. Anyways, so he wrote it and said, I really like this girl and I really want to make her my girlfriend.

And so, of course, I'm like, great, talk to her, have a conversation. And he goes, but I've been seeing all this content online saying that the woman needs to be the one to say it, that the men look weak and they, I'm confused. What do I do? Oh my gosh. And I was like, this is the issue. We've lost the plot completely. To be a high value woman, you need to do this and to be, and I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I fucking hate that high value woman content and high value man content. I hate all of it. Like, please. I hate all of it. of it because apparently your value is because I go to dinner with you, but not coffee. There's literally a woman that she's a coach, a therapist, and that's what concerns me. Yes, licensed. And her thing was a coffee date. A man will never respect you. Don't you ever sleep? And I'm like, I fuck my boyfriend on the first date. We went on a hike date. We did all the things. And like, now we live

together and we're moving into another home and we're talking about potentially getting married. Like, well, fine. We have got to fucking stop with that. You know what I hear? Black and white thinking. If it's not this, then it's this. It's shame and it's all of this, like, deep-rooted misogyny. Yeah. That's what gets my goat. Yeah. And a lot of times you have to be very careful because sometimes the people who are giving

you this advice aren't even in relationships. No. And never have. That's always the fun part. Like, never have been in long-term relationships and they're on this pedestal. Like, and obviously I have a relationship advice podcast. I'm not sitting here saying that I don't also sit on a pedestal and give advice. But, like, I don't, I try not to, like, yuck anyone's yum.

but I do feel like we have lost the plot. Like there is a miscommunication happening that we're trying to get on board with. I also, at the same token, like I do feel like it's hard for guys a lot of times. They don't really know how to approach. What's the right way to approach that guy that wrote in? Like, is it okay if I say something? Should she be the one to do it? If I touch her, is that an appropriate?

Right. And I feel like we know that there are limits. We know that consent is real and should always be implemented in every single thing that we do. And yet there's this like fear of like, should I approach her? Should I not approach her? No, she should be the one approaching me. And it's like, okay, fine. I'm for a woman, you know, standing on business, doing what she wants to do.

If she wants to approach him, she absolutely should. I think that that's completely fair. But then I have a lot of women friends who are like, no, like if they don't meet every single one of my expectations, every single one of my standards. It's an absolute no. Like, I'm not interested. I don't need a man. Okay.

To me, what I hear from that, fear. Yeah. The underbelly of that is if I put, I don't want to put myself out there. If you're not perfect how I need you, and it's like, both of those are the standards you hold for yourself. I have to be perfect. I have to do everything right. And my heart goes out because I think so many people, especially these lists, like my

brother always says like, burn your fucking checklist. Get rid of your shit. He's like, cool. You want, you know, the only checklist you should have is like, how do I want to feel with this person? Like you said with your partner, like, he gives me space. Yeah. He holds space for me.

He allows me to be myself. It's like, that's the checklist that we want to hold on to. But yet all of a sudden, I don't know about you. I'm sure you get written into every fucking day. And I'll get the same kind of, and it breaks my heart because my heart goes out for the people writing into this of like this person checked on my boxes and they're so amazing and they're perfect. And ready, when I see perfect, I'm like, nah, we're, we're, we've gone off the track. Yeah. But he's probably all these things.

But then after and it's like, but, you know, he doesn't want a relationship with me. And he doesn't actually, he walks out every time we have an argument. and he's super dismissive and he doesn't have the emotional bandwidth but what do I do? I'm in love with him and you're like, uh, stop. Please. Because it's like we forget,

like you said, your friends that are beautiful and successful in all of these, we forget what we also bring. And it's not, I hate the bring to the, what do you bring to the table? Yeah.

But literally, I'm bringing all of these things. You have every right to say, I want someone to match that. Yeah. But there's the pendulum swinging to severely when, yes, I want you to match that, then we also get,

but if you're not exactly what I want, okay, not too far to the left. And then when it's, oh, well, I have no boundaries and you could do anything, okay, too far to the right, right? We need to kind of come back to the middle. I feel like we've lost that. We have. We really have. I don't, and I don't, the problem is, I say this, but I don't know how we can fix it. Oh, I have no fucking clue. I feel like we all have to collectively, like, get, like, we need to make a relationship convention of every single person who's trying to date and everybody gets together and we all come to a consensus and we all, like, vote on it. It's like a school test.

You have to take it in order to graduate. God forbid in school, they taught us things like, and we should have learned anything that we cared about. Yeah. But, okay, let's get to the elephant in the room here, catfishing. Yes. That's the other problem with dating. That's the other problem.

You have the show, so of course there's a lot of data. Yeah. Great. I want to talk, though, about, like, somebody asked me, I didn't know about this, so I'm curious if you do, maybe this is, oh my God, I'm about to say, is this what the kids are talking about? You know, because what the kids are saying online.

Your boyfriend has a daughter that's that age. I'm like, maybe you know. Yeah. Someone asked me the difference between kitten fishing and catfishing. And I was like, okay, please. Oh, my God. It happened. It's here.

I'm old. Okay. Well, it's kitten fishing. There's key out fishing. So, there's hat fishing. Okay, I've been hat fished. Yeah. There's a lot of, like, there's a lot.

There's a lot of different pieces and elements under the umbrella. But kitten fishing is like the little things that you can do. So, I mean, I kitten fish all day. And I always say life is a catfish. Like, no one is giving you their raw, unedited, unvarnished. Like bullshit. You don't want to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that.

Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody's going on a first date being like, yeah, so I've got daddy issues, trust issues, you want to date me? Yeah, exactly. Like nobody's doing that. By the way, my card's going to bounce, but you're cool, right? Exactly. Low. Nobody's doing that.

But Kid Invision is like the little things that we do. So like Face Tune, like a little bit of face tune. I love a little edit. I don't know about everybody else, but I am here for it. I filter. Give me a retouch. Give me a fucking reach. I don't give a shit.

I want my picture to look how I look in person. And let me tell you something. The new iPhone is not giving what it gives in person. Thank you. I thought it was just... No, I take that picture and I look crusty and grungy. And you don't look like that to me right now. Thank you. I tried to take a selfie in the car. I was like, am I the ugliest person I've ever seen? Yes. This is what I'm saying. But then I look in the mirror, I'm like, am I the most gorgeous person I've ever seen? Yes. So who's being... Who's being honest? Me or a phone?

It's apples to blame. Thank you. Yeah. So, yeah, if you use Face App, FaceTune, whatever, a little bit, blah, blah, blah. I'm not saying you should do a whole... body recontoring. But if you want to take out your giant foreheads, it, cool. Go and dad. But kitten fishing. That would be that. Got it. So it's a little small, like, it's like a white lie, essentially. Yeah, a little white lie. Or like, you know, when you, when you sent in your resume for a new job and you said proficient in Excel. You graduated from school when you didn't. Yeah, those little things. Hi. Like, we all did it. I think I put on my Miss Teen USA paperwork that I was fluent in Spanish. I think at the time I was becoming more fluent in Spanish. But if I had booked a job,

job that required me to speak like full full on Spanish, I'm conversational, but I'm not, I'm not fluent. Right. Kid fishing. We're all guilty of it. I feel like we all do it a little bit. And then we go to the extremes of catfishing being straight up. Totally different person.

And the reason I wanted us to even just talk about online safety and catfishing is one, because like, yes, you either kind of know what or you don't, right? Like I think some people, but also because we have a lot of folks that, like, we forget that dating apps. Like for me, I don't know about you, I'm not going to speak for everybody. For me personally, when I moved to New York, I had just turned 19. Like I was like a day, I just, it happened. I was a child. Okay, I'm aging myself. Okay, Cupid had just come out of like, what's this? And I remember like, this is one you still go to a bar and meet somebody and you met through friends. So it was exciting because you're like, oh, so I was bred into that. I saw the generations of

them, Tinder and plenty of fish and coffee meets bagel and all the fucking ones that have come since. But there are a lot of people that have never been on a dating app that are newly divorced coming out of a marriage of 20 years and like, what do I do? Yeah. So I think for us, we, I'd like to hear, especially your perspective, because you've seen so much on, like, because I, some people will send me and stuff and I'm like, it's so obviously a catfish and they don't know. Yeah.

If you could share a little bit of like, what are things to look out for? The why, I don't think many of us will ever really know. I'm sure you've heard a lot of people's why and it breaks your heart no matter what. But talk to me all things catfishing when it comes to these online profiles, because I got really proficient in finding it. but your girl still got catfished a couple of times by people that are really fucking good at lying. Yeah, no, people are really good at lying

even if you meet them in person. Correct. That's true. To be duped by somebody that you've met on the internet is not uncommon. It actually is more common than people even like to admit. And I will run into people randomly or even people that I know who will be like, can I tell you something?

I've been catfished. But they don't talk about it outwardly. So it's like it's not happening. It's happening. I do want to preface this with when I met my boyfriend. It was my first time on a dating app and I was terrified. Terrified. Well, at least with Raya, you have the Instagram and it's connected.

So you're like, okay, if they have a blue check, it's them. But I still think that no matter what, no matter what app you're on, no matter what you're doing, you need to cross-reference. Oh, yeah. You have to cross-reference. Just looking at their profile is not enough. No. Just because they sent you one Instagram profile that has like 25 followers on it, not enough. that could be a burner account that they created that's not even their real account so that they could just say like so many of those.

I've seen so many crazy things. Google them. When I talk to people about Googling people, they look at me like I have 10 heads. They're like, I'm not going to Google them. That's so invasive. Google is free. And if you're not going to use that outlet to figure out if the person that you're about to go spend private time with is an axed murderer or not. Thank God to Google years ago when I was in New York. I found out a guy had been arrested for rape. Stop. Yeah, and I did not go out with him.

And it's something, your spitey sense, something told me in my gut. He was a little too pushy about where he wanted to go. I was like, 24, but I knew that. Something in my gut, I was like, something feels off. And sure enough, it was like one random link, like a link at the bottom. And it was his rap sheet from another state. And I was like, no, ma'am. Wow.

Because even on Bumble, you can have a blue check. That does not mean you're actually the person. That just means you are human. It doesn't mean you're that human. And that's the thing. I think that apps are trying to do better. I know Tinder has like a verification service, but it doesn't fucking matter. Do your research.

Do your research. I do research on every person that I meet. I don't give a shit who it is. 100%. Ryan always like get a Google meet number. Yeah. Don't give your fucking phone away. You don't have to give your phone away.

You can get a text app number. You don't have to do anything that you're not comfortable with doing. But before you go to spend time with someone, In real life, you have to double check to make sure that that person is real. I think that we as human beings have, you know, this goodness in us that wants to see the goodness in other people. I'm here to tell you that you need to see people for exactly who they are and let them prove to you that they're a good person. You have to Google them. You have to.

At the very least, look up a phone number. Look up their phone. Look them up. Even Ryan, he always suggested to like because we had a client and she, one of my clients, she was a doctor, very big in her community. And she was like, I don't really want people to be able to figure out who I am. And so the first thing he said, he was like, then don't use a photo that somebody could reverse image search and find out what hospital you work at. Yeah.

You know, be cognizant of the photos that you're using. Don't have a photo where you're in front of your apartment. And it's very clear that you're how. And you can figure out where you live. Well, that's another thing. I'm very, very big on not posting, first of all, not posting where you are when you're there. I post after I leave. Yep, anywhere.

Changed a geo tag every time. All the time. People will be like, oh my God, like, you're posting this hotel review, but you're still there that's so unsafe. Baby, this is not my first rodeo. Yeah. Okay. I haven't been there for a week.

I haven't been there for 12 days, minimum. Like, please, don't worry about me. You do not have to worry about me. But, like, I don't even post outside of my window in my apartment. Like, I would never, it is too easy. I think that people also forget this part. It is so easy to find. people in today's day and age. It is so easy to find you. I could find you where you went to high

school, where your family lives, who they voted for. I can find whatever I need to find out about you on the internet. There are pages dedicated to, I don't know if you've ever seen this guy on TikTok who people will be like, tell me where I am. Yeah, and he just, like a photo in the street. And like, it'll be like the smallest piece of the street and he will find your exact location. Everyone needs to be safe online, and people underestimate how unsafe it can be online. And I also say this while also promoting that people should be on dating apps, seeing what's out there, but you need to be careful. You need to be a better buyer. You have to be a better buyer.

You can't be out here just giving all the info away for free. No. Off the bat, anybody else for money. Anybody that only wants to text you and not make any fucking phone calls, you want to do a viper. calls. You want to do a vibe check? Do a FaceTime. I've done that. Yeah. Especially when I was like, hey, I've been open to guys. I'm like, you're either way too attractive. Because like, when I first moved to L.A., you know, you're like, this is an influencer. Like, this person has a blue check. So usually what I'd do is like, if we were chatting, I'd even be like, I'd DM them and be like, hey, I just want to make sure this is you. Yeah. I don't want to put myself in a precarious situation. Or I'd cross-struck the phone number. Or I would always be like, hey, let's do a vibe check FaceTime. I want to make sure that you are, if I got any kind of pushback, any kind of bullshit. Oh, no. To me, then it's just abort mission. Yeah. Even guys that I would meet in person, if you want to give me your phone number, cool.

You can give me your phone number. You better put your first and last name in that phone. And I dated a guy once who only put his first name in my phone. And I legit gave him back the phone. And I was like, I said first and last name. And he was like, what, are you going to Google me? I was like, yes, actually. What's like that Risa Taylor, Risa Tisa?

Risa. Yeah. Like that story where you're like, okay, I get it. All of us can be susceptible. And I'm not saying that, like, she didn't do her do deal. And it's like, I don't know. I don't know what her story was, like that part of it. Yeah.

But it's like anybody. And that's what I love when people are like, I've been no, like, I've been with them for two months and they're for me. And I'm like, you don't know shit about fuck. And about anybody. You don't know shit about fuck is exactly how I feel on a regular basis. Oh, yeah. Like, you don't. You don't.

You don't. You don't. You don't. You don't. Because it's like, I had, um, my friend last night was telling me at dinner how like, she did it for like four months. And her friend, her sister was reading his chart and was like, no, he has anger issues. And she's like, I swear, like he doesn't have anger issues. I've seen it.

Three months later. It's exactly three months later. It was like a week later. And she's like, I saw a side to him. I had never seen. Yeah, because that's what happens when you take time to date someone. Thank you. That's what happened when you go slow to anybody listening.

That's like, and I get that every day. Like, what does it mean to go slow? I'm curious. What do you think it means to go slow? I think a lot of people when they hear go slow, they automatically assume it means don't fuck on the first date or like don't have sex with them early. I don't think that it really makes a difference. It doesn't. I really don't think that it makes a difference. Can I be the person to be like, hello? It makes no difference. We did that. But I, to me, going slow means actually like lifting up

every rock and looking under it. You don't actually see the signs and we ignore red flags every single day. and I'm guilty of it, like dating someone, knowing that something in my gut is like, but being like, no. I have a gross a stomach egg. Yeah, please. It's not even that serious. Like, yeah, every time I see him, I get, like, really bad diarrhea, but it's just the butterflies. It's just butterflies.

It's in season. It's anxiety, babe. Yeah. Like, they're making your nervous system feel unsafe. To me, I think going slow is just really paying attention to how your body feels when you're with someone. you know, do you feel more at peace? Do you feel like you can relax? Like, do you feel like you can eat?

Do you feel like you can sleep? These are things that I ignored in the past where like I'm dealing with someone and I'm literally losing weight because I can't eat. Like, I can't eat. Like, have you ever felt like that? Oh yeah, that's dysregulation. Yes, where you feel like this, like it's almost like your stomach has been raised up. And everything that you eat is just like, oh, that's enough. Like, because you're not safe with this person.

No. That's why they always talk about like relationship weight, because when you're feeling comfortable and you like eat a bunch of bullshit, that's what we're my boyfriend do, at least. Yeah. Because you're safe. You're comfortable. You're safe. You're comfortable.

You feel good. You're getting good sleep. Like you can rest with this person. That's what I think is like taking things slow. It's just like really, really figuring out who this person is, finding more about them. I feel like with my boyfriend now, that is the first time, and maybe it's the frontal lobe situation. But that was the first time that I really feel like I took things slow in a relationship. We started dating and weren't really like going out as much because I realized that other people that I had dated in the past.

I had met them while I was out at parties or something like that. That's not real life in my opinion. No. I didn't know how you are when we are quiet in the house. like with no TV on, what are you like then? Because like Netflix and Jill is cool, but like, how are you when there's nothing on? Right. When we're like playing, I don't know, a board game or something like that. When you take the mask off, it's like, who are you really? Who are you really? Like, let's really have real conversations. And I do feel like that's what allowed us to fall in

love with each other so deeply is just like we really knew who one another was. By the time he asked me to like be in a relationship. We had already made things exclusive. And then by the time he asked me to quote unquote be his girlfriend, which he didn't actually say, will you be my girlfriend? He said that he saw a future for us together and that he wanted to start that now. You're like, how do I feel about? Exactly.

But it's also because we had a conversation where I told him that I'm not a girlfriend. Like I'm not here to be anyone else's girlfriend. I'm here to be a wife. Like I want a marriage. I don't want to do the girlfriend, boyfriend thing again, although I do call him my boyfriend. Well, that's a step between before you didn't just go to the altar at that moment. For me, it was about intention. Exactly. And so, like, going slow also is figuring out what someone's intentions truly are,

because sometimes you think that you're on the same page and you realize that you are so far apart. And sometimes you might think that you could be. And then as you date, you're like, actually, no, I don't see that with you. I don't want that with you. You're human. Yeah. To me, what I see going slow is it's, it's, it's, not an excuse for bad behavior. Right? It's not just a like, oh, we only see each other once a month,

and we text once every two weeks. You're like, that's not going slow. That's not being intentional. Yeah. What it is is you're not expediting the stages of a relationship quicker than they need to be based on how long you've known. Like, the pinch doesn't match to the ouch. Yes. So like when I'm in Ryan after about a month and a month and a month and he was like, he did the kind of his little, his version of the reveal of like, I want to delete the app. Great. I was like, okay, cool. Like, I'm ready for that. Yeah. And he turns around one day and goes, well, you be my girlfriend. And I just looked at him and I heard it. I was like, no. And he stopped and he was like, oh. And I just stopped and said, okay, let me explain. Oh my God. This conversation while high would have sent me into another dimension.

Me and I had a my God. I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I was said, and he laughed at the day. He's like, sometimes you just got to do it. And I'm like, yeah, apparently. But it was more that then when we had a conversation, because I was like, I even said the same. I was like, can we be sober?

I was like, let's talk about it over dinner. Yes. And when we went to dinner, I said this. I said, I care very deeply about you. I was like, but you have not really opened up to me. I don't know your vulnerabilities. I haven't really been able to see that side of you. And hello, you met me.

I'm very open and expressive and vulnerable and let's talk. And I said, here's a very clear roadmap. If you'd like me to be your girlfriend, then I need to see, I need to see more of you. I need to see you open up. And I think what we should do is go on a trip. Let's do something together to get us out of this environment. And so we started just doing things. He was like, okay, valid.

And so he started becoming more emotionally open with me and having conversations like that because he was like, hey, I know that that's what you're going to need. So then two months later, like a month enough later, when you said, would you be my girlfriend? I was like, I know more about you. Because, girl, I know about you. I've had way too many. They're here, they work.

I'll have a boyfriend. And then six months, nine months in, you're like, I don't even like you that much. Oh, that happens. That's happened to be old. Right? Because it's like we want, you want safety, you want exclusivity. Let me just get it because then I don't have to date. Yeah, exactly.

And I'd rather be alone than in bad company. Yeah. I've said this. My friends have said that I'm savage for this. But like, I don't believe in telling people what they want to hear just because they said it to you. So like my boyfriend told me that he loved me three times before I said it back. And the first time he said it, he was drunk. Yeah, you're like, man, we'll come back to that.

No. Well, I was like, okay, sit down. Let me get you some water. Yeah, exactly. The second and third time were in like intimate moments. Right. And to me, I just, I, I just couldn't say it back because I felt that in that moment, but I'm like, how, like, like, like, let me really gauge, like, what this is like. So by the time I said it to him, he was like, no, you don't. I've said it to you multiple times and you haven't said it back. And I was like, no, I felt it. But I wanted to make sure that I really felt it before I said it.

I appreciate that. Yeah. And I think he appreciated it too because, like, sometimes I feel like we get caught up in just saying what the other person says. And, like, no. Well, it's like when Ryan asked me to be his girlfriend. And I was like, I could just say yes because you're at. And it just, no.

I was like, why am I going to lie to you and bullshit you now? No. We've been this far. Yeah. Yeah, no. And it can wait. I was like, I want to have this conversation about being in love or loving each other. This is a, that's a real thing for me.

And if I'm going to say that to someone, I want it to be like without any, I don't even know what the word would be. I don't want there to be anything in the way or anything that's influencing this decision other than just like, pure feelings. Yeah. Alcohol, sex, let's like throw that to the side. How do we really feel about each other? Like, do you really feel this way?

Do I really feel this way? We do. Okay, great. Once you've waited it out and you both agree, now you get to say, I love you all the time. All the time. It's the same with the texting stuff

when girls are like, but, you know, if he doesn't start off by texting me every day and it's like, oh my God. But you know what? You can also build to that. Sabrina, after we met, I sent your videos to multiple of my friends

who are dating, and they hated me for it. Of course. And they hated you for it. Of course. They were like, she's absolutely right. This bitch is on to something. That's literally what my sister said.

She's like, why the fuck would you send me her page? Everything she said is true. I'm like, yes, because I agree. When I first started dating my boyfriend, did I want him to fucking text me every morning? Yes. I want him to worship my feet every day. But guess what? He didn't know me like that.

Now he does. Now he does. And now he does. But like, the expectations are so high. This circles back to our original conversation about like what's wrong with dating right now. That our expectations are through the roof for people that we don't even know. And they don't know us. You are not owed a good morning text every morning by a stranger. That's like if me, when you and I met, if me being like, I don't understand, why aren't you texting me every day? It's like, you don't do that to your friends.

No. You're like, yeah, I haven't spoken to you in a couple weeks. Oh, my God, good to see. Right, and you just get back on it. But yet all of a sudden, when it comes to this, well, that's part of that high value bullshit of like, well, if I see one more time, like if a man doesn't text you every day, there was one guy who made a fucking video that went crazy viral.

And of course, all the comments are like, yes, yes. And he's like, if you're dating somebody and he doesn't contact you for a day, he doesn't care about you. You could be dead on the side of the street. He doesn't give a fuck about you. Now I have to die in this scenario?

Exactly, and I was like, wait a minute. So now, but how did he know I was dead? Right? Like, how do you know I'm on the side? You could have the worst day ever. He doesn't even care enough to check in with you. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, we come back here. Where's the nuance?

How long you know this person? How many dates have you been on? Honestly, is this your boyfriend? Is this your boyfriend or is this a guy that you had two dates with and you haven't fucking heard from him in two weeks and now you're free? Yeah. Because usually we only obsess over what's not safe. And I say to my friends too, and I think I got this from you.

Like, the power in them being able to make their decision about whether or not they want to date you is that you also have the same power. Stop waiting for them to choose you and maybe choose yourself so that you can also make a fucking choice. Yeah. Why are you waiting on them? Like, okay, they haven't texted you in two weeks. You've been sitting around waiting for their text for two weeks.

No, you get back out there. And not going on other dates and keeping your options open, even though when I met my boyfriend, I knew. As soon as I saw him pop up on that right, I said, this is mine. Okay, I'm a Scorpio.

I was like, you, me, this is it. Done. I made him think that I had other options, even though I didn't. And not in a rude way, just in a way of like, for myself, I had to trick my mind. Don't attach. Into believing that I was going to keep my options open. So whether that meant like going out with other guys or just like still being on the app, seeing what's out there, I'm preoccupying my time. I'm not sitting here waiting for your every single call.

Like, no, I'm busy. No, busy. Oh, you want to take me out? Friday night. I'm not available Friday night. But Saturday night I could do something. It's like, it's not a game. You're like, no, no, I'm living my life. And you either, I get to choose if you fit into it. Yes. And I think that's, if I can, if we can leave you with anything, build a fucking life for you that you love. Build a life that you enjoy. Build a life because then my mom always just say, you're good before them, you'll be good after. And so many people will go, but I wasn't good

before them. And I'm like, but yet you seem to think that with them all of a sudden, you're going to be great. And my mom used to always say. Give me mama. I love, I have so many of like, my mom. My mama used to say, do not be the girl that's at every party. And I think that it can be used in so many different things when it comes to dating. She was just always like, do not be the girl that's at every single party. Every single Friday they know, oh, Cammy's going to be there. I can see Cammy there. No, skip a few Fridays.

I can be like, oh, my God, I came last Friday. I thought you were going to be here and you weren't. I couldn't wait to see you. Well, I'm here now. Like, you don't have to be so available all the time. Yes. Make yourself scarce. Yeah, authentically.

Like, actually fill your life with stuff. Not the like, oh, well, he took six hours to respond. So I, Jesus fuck. It's not a game. It's not a game. You don't need to play games to like... Two women sitting in front of you with very healthy, secure relationships that are progressing in a really beautiful way are both coming to say, strip the games, stop with the clickbait bullshit.

Stop listening to these people that shame you for wanting to do. Like, but also start to work on your side. Do the work. Yeah. You know, don't come after me now. But start to actually invest in yourself in some fucking way so that you can show up authentically. Like, I want to show up how I want other people to show up for me.

Do I want someone insecure? Do I want somebody that's constantly overthinking? And that's okay if you are. Again, there is no shame. I was her. But you can work through that to then become the her that you actually want to show up as. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Oh, Cammy girl. We could talk all fucking day. It's true. Thank you so much for being on. Thank you for coming. Of course. Thank you for having me.

And where can people find you? I mean, it's going to be linked, but... Yes. Well, I'm on all social media platforms. All social media platforms. All social media platforms at Kimmy Crawford. And then the podcast relationship, we air every Friday on everywhere you get your podcasts. Perfect. So they can listen to the Sabrina Zohar show. Yes. And then they can listen to relationship because both of them come out Friday. And now you guys have the best way to start your weekend. Exactly. Until next time. Empowered. Thanks, girl.

Thank you.