The School of Greatness - 1018 The Spiritual Guide to Inner Peace, Mastering Grief & Understanding God w/Rob Bell

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

“Consciousness is the great mystery at the heart of the human experience and it’s the endless black box for science.”Former pastor, speaker, and best-selling author, Rob Bell joins Lewis for a deeply profound conversation on today's podcast. Named in Time Magazine's Top 100 Most Influential People in the World, Rob Bell discusses the importance of being a witness to your life, the tools for better communication, the nature of the universe, his new book, "Everything is Spiritual," and so much more!Read Rob’s book: Everything is SpiritualCheck out Rob’s Podcast: The RobCastVisit Rob’s website: https://www.robbell.comCheck out the last podcast with Rob: https://lewishowes.com/484

I'm going to ask you a question you probably don't like answering. Now I'm like, let's do this question. Is there a God? What is God? I feel like people always want to know what this answer is. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person

or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. British writer Alan Watts once said, you are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing. An American astronomer and author Carl Sagan wrote, science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. spirituality. My guest today has decades of wisdom and curiosity about spirituality, human experience, and the nature of the universe, and is one of my personal favorites to have on the show. He's a dear friend of mine and someone I care deeply about. I appreciate his wisdom and just love our friendship. Rob Bell is a speaker, former pastor, best-selling author of many books. Time Magazine named him one of the most 100 influential people

in the world, and he's the author of the latest book, Everything is Spiritual. And we always have deeply profound conversations, but I'm telling you, this one is a game changer. And in this episode, we discuss the nature of the universe and the human experience, how to spiritually evolve to find joy and love in difficult and painful situations, communicating with people that disagree. This is huge for right now. The spiritual tools to handle any adversity in life, why you have to talk about what you've never talked about, how grief and imagination are so closely related, when to create boundaries with friends and family.

And I ask him a big question, what is God? Make sure to share this with someone who needs to hear it while you're listening. And a quick reminder to subscribe to the School of Greatness over on Apple Podcast and leave us a rating and review as well. Okay, after this quick message, the one and only Rob Bell. Greatness. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. Super pumped for my man, Rob Bell in the house. Air pound. COVID fist bumps. So glad you're here, man. Over the top of face masks. Exactly. So glad you're here, man. It's so good to see you. I think this is our

fourth or fifth interview together. We've done probably three in the past. Every time someone asks me who is your favorite or some of your favorite guests, I have to reference you. You're always in my top line. Of course, Kobe is my favorite. And I've had some other big names that I've always wanted to have. But you came into my life when I was just like needing more spiritual grounding and yeah a compass to keep me on the right track and also just to like answer questions that i had about

life and i feel like every time you come on i get more and more clear and less clear at the same time oh good because spirituality and the the universe is hard to understand. Yeah, yeah. That's the thing about actual mystery. Mystery isn't something you can't know. Mystery is something you can know endlessly. So for a lot of people, they bump into mystery and they're like, that just seems, it's just all fuzzy, woo woo, whatever. Oh, no, no, no, no.

Love, the nature of the cosmos the depth of the human heart these are great mysteries but you you can actually know them it's just a different kind of knowing it's like a bottomless infinite knowing what's what's the mystery that you still don't know i mean think about you like the first time we met and talked i remember in that interview oh he's asking questions because he's a good interviewer because he has a show and he's building a whole thing here but he's into this yeah he's not just asking he's asking um i remember that yeah yeah there was a deep knowing you were after and and right away i was like oh i didn't know your background but I was like, oh, I didn't know your background. But I was like, oh, there's a whole history here.

I remember sensing Lewis probably came up through some world that gave him some vision of the world. Because most people, well, all of us, we came up through a tribe, through a subculture, through a family system, business, academic, sports, whatever, that gave us a way to navigate the world. But then you go out and become who you're becoming. Business, academic, sports, whatever, that gave us a way to navigate the world. But then you go out and become who you're becoming. And some of that works, but some of it doesn't. So there's this ancient pattern of orientation, disorientation, reorientation. And I feel like every season of life you're going through the same pattern. You're often doing this.

When I first met you, I remember thinking, yeah, Lewis is like, there's a bunch of things that he was handed that don't work anymore. So he sort of like tossed those. But his heart is open and his mind is engaged. I remember that thinking.

So he's looking, okay, so how do you think about, even like the word God, which essentially means ultimate reality. And oftentimes people think of the word God is like a religious term which is it's much more helpful to think about it like what is the nature of this universe that we call home like what's the thing behind the thing behind the thing right what's the source because people are always talking about God they just use different words for it. But I remember you were asking all those sorts of questions.

Like, is it a place of love, generosity, hope? Are we going to be okay? Or is it a cold, dark, lonely place where you might as well just throw some elbows and fight for your peace and see what happens? Yeah. Something I love about your message in one of our interviews, I deeply remember in one of the interviews we did, you saying something about the universe is 13 billion years old. love about your message in one of our interviews, I deeply remember in one of the interviews we did, you saying something about, you know, the universe is 13 billion years old and there's so much dark matter. Yes. Unknown, darkness, scary, crazy things. And we would actually not exist without the dark matter. Isn't that like, yeah, scientists are like, basically 4% of the universe is sort of known, and 96% of it, black holes, dark matter, dark energy, and we kind of have a vague sense,

even the best scientists are like, we kind of have a sense of what that is. We just know that it's somehow integral to the life of the universe. And then you talk to most of us who have dark matter regrets mistakes things would have done differently things were like please don't bring that up and yet it's the engine of life it's how you grow it's how you expand how your consciousness awakens is generally the tough stuff so we need the tough stuff in order to grow expand live and understand what the four percent of beauty is. Well think about like, you're at dinner,

like you're at a dinner party and there's some guy named Chuck at the end of the table, and he's like, I was always pretty awesome, and then I tried some other stuff and I was good at that too, and then I started Branch Out and I was pretty sweet at that, get that guy, right? Get that guy, that's so boring.

But this person over here is like, yeah I fell face down three times. I lost all my money. I tried some other stuff. Okay. Now this is somebody it's like the ache is actually what draws us to each other. We connect. Yeah. How does someone in your position who has been a spiritual guide for so many, for so many years, and this has been your path, your path and your mission. how does someone like you handle adversity when it comes now? Or do you not even see adversity as actually a bad thing or something that knocks you off track? How do you actually stay at a level of grounded spiritual peace

when it hits you? Honestly, now now a good chunk of the time I start smiling anger rage like something was like what was I thinking why did I fire off that email the real art is to witness to it oh Oh, look, there's I'm angry, and then there's, oh, look, anger. So the problem is for most people, adversity, they identify, the adversity becomes everything. But the real art of a spiritual vision for life is you're learning how to witness to it. Oh, look, this person gets under my skin. Why? In like a supernatural way. Like in the book, I talk about, so you can

just let, you can have it be parts, division. I want nothing to do with that person because they walk in the room and my blood boils. Or all parts exist within a greater whole this person is my teacher so there's some reason why they get under my skin why they provoke me why they can just set me off like that what is it what are they here to teach me um but yeah adversity like even this past half year with lockdown and there are days that are just, what the? I wake up in the morning, take the dog for a walk, and I'm like, what are we? What's happening this whole day?

Like your head is just spinning. So I just go, okay, hold on, take a deep breath, witness to it, and then remember that you'll have everything you need for the day when you need it. The only place you can ever be is here. Yeah. The only thing that goes on forever is now.

You can't think about the future too much. But adversity, like I noticed recently somebody mentioned failure. And almost conceptually, I don't know. I sense you have the same thing. Do you even now have the category of failure? No, I mean, we talk about it all the time as feedback. Right. It's information that's telling us what we shouldn't be doing or what we could be doing

better. Yeah, it's information. And a good story. Great story. There's no good movie out there. It's just like the person's life was amazing. There was no adversary. There was no adversary there was no

uh challenger you know it's like you have to conquer something right right it's a good story right right right there's this old story uh in the book of genesis about jacob wrestles an angel and he gets his hip injured and the rabbis talk about jac away limping, but he's experienced the divine. Why? So there's like a limp. Why is he experiencing the divine? He's wrestled with who he is. In the first time you meet him, he's pretending to be his brother. Who are you?

And he gives his brother's name. But then when he wrestles with the divine I'm Jacob. So actually if you trace the story, it's somebody becoming comfortable in his own skin because when you first meet him he's trying to be somebody else and now he's owning himself and now he's I'm Jacob and So this path we all go on to learn to be comfortable in your own skin This is how I am this where I'm from. That's why LeBron always says he's from Akron. Mm-hmm. You gotta own And so this path we all go on to learn to be comfortable in your own skin. This is who I am. This is where I'm from.

That's why LeBron always says he's from Akron. You've got to own every square inch of your story. Yeah. What happens if we don't own our story? You've got those bits and pieces that you don't know what to do with. Often they haunt the house. Ooh. They're present. They haunt the house.

They're present. Anything that doesn't get named or expressed, then it's lurking somewhere. You develop a shadow. So think about any family system, any business, any partnership where there's two columns, things we can talk about and things we can't. The things in the column that we can't talk about, that can't be said, are running the show. Those are the things you need to be talking about. Yes. And if they can't be spoken, then they're the shadow, they're the underbelly,

they haunt the house, and they actually are running the show. And that's what's keeping you from what you want. Everybody's agreed not to talk about that. Tell me what you can't talk about and we can diagnose quite quickly the thing. Why is it so hard for people to talk about the thing they don't want to name when that's the answer? Right, right, right, right, right, right.

Yeah, the terror of could we speak that and be okay? Could we face that and it wouldn't blow things to pieces? Yeah, it might. It might. The truth might get spoken and the current structure and arrangement might be blasted to pieces. But at least you'd be free. You'd be free. So which? You want freedom freedom would you like

and potential chaos of blowing up the system right or you can't have new creation without a disruption of the current creation so like in america right now we need to police ourselves in new and better ways greater community responsibility less brutality obviously but to police ourselves in a better way there will have to be a disruption in the way that we currently understand what we mean by policing yeah because it's not working right and generally somebody somewhere has a vested interest in the current arrangement like people generally don't understand things if their paycheck is dependent on them not understanding it right so yeah for there to be new creation they'll probably have to be some

sort of disruption of the present creation which always has a structure which always has somebody with a vested interest power money is probably lurking yeah so in some ways the work that we do is helping people like it's okay it's okay you can speak the thing you can say it you can name it yeah it might be blown to shreds but on the other side you'll be free. It'll be so much better. What are the questions all humans should be asking themselves during a time like this of uncertainty, of chaos, of I'm not sure what's gonna happen, of information overload when we don't even know

where tomorrow will bring us. Right. We don't even know if we're gonna have our jobs and health and scariness, what are the questions we should ask ourselves about life, God, why we're here? Yeah. thing is what new creation is waiting to be birthed in this so uh you think about like america spends twice as much on health care as other first world countries and our health care was way worse. And most personal bankruptcies are rooted in a health care system doesn't work. So everything is spiritual.

This is all spiritual. How do we, what does health look like in the way that we've arranged ourselves? So you can see it all as this thing isn't working, but if you immediately have that, this thing isn't working. But if you immediately have that, this thing isn't working. Okay, well then how should we arrange it? So grief and imagination have a longstanding relationship. Because grief is loss.

And anytime you're losing something, anytime there's grief, which is loss, that's always where the seeds of imagination are hiding. This thing is passing away. Well, then by default, we're going to have to cook up something new. So you can see it, especially in the ancient tradition, anytime there's grief, that's always the moment to keep your eyes peeled. Because this is always where the imagination begins to arise. Well, if that thing's gone, well, how would we do it if we had to start over? So I think that's the number one question right now.

Are there better ways for education? Think of all the things that aren't working like they used to. And you can see that disorientation as terrifying. Well, you know what's interesting is it's typically hard for a lot of people to make a change in their life without a near death experience, without a sickness, a cancer scare, someone in the family close to them dying, a divorce, a death of something. Well, for us to say, this isn't working for me,

I've got to start eating better. I got fired from my job. You know what? I didn't like it there anyways. What do I really want? It was weirdly a gift. So it's almost like since the world hasn't been able to make the change on its own, it's being forced to change in a drastic and uncomfortable, painful way. Yes. I know you want to get back to rob bell but i'm so excited to tell you about my next sponsor masterclass with masterclass you can learn from the world's best minds anytime anywhere and at your own pace you can learn how to skateboard from the pioneer of modern skateboarding himself tony hawk you can improve your style with Queer Eye's Tan France or learn how to garden from gangsters gardener Ron Finley. With over 85 classes from a wide range of world-class instructors, that thing

you've always wanted to do is closer than you think. So there's no more excuses. I myself took the art of negotiation from former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss, another School of Greatness alum here. And Chris's class taught me the invaluable interpersonal skills that I'm able to put to good use for my business and brand. And you can access Masterclass as an app on your phone, web, or Apple TV, and I highly recommend you check them out. Get unlimited access to every Masterclass. And as a School of Greatness listener, you get 15% off an annual membership. So make sure to go to masterclass.com slash greatness.

That's masterclass.com slash greatness for 15% off masterclass. Now back to our very own masterclass with Rob Bell. Bell. When I started out like 24, 25 I started out as a pastor and so the job was basically walking with people through the awful stuff of life. The good stuff, weddings, but funerals, hospital. You were the one showing up at the hospital, at the home. And I wasn't even prepared for this the job of the pastor is somebody calls and is like my dad just got sent to prison we need somebody with an official credential because none of us can get in to visit him right now could you please go visit him because he hasn't had any visitors okay so i would i and for especially in the beginning my like mantra was i'll go anywhere i'll talk to anybody but what

happened is i would end up the 16 year old hung himself and now i'm in the hospital room with his family i'm standing over the casket with this guy and his wife is in the casket and this is the woman he's been with for 50 years i mean this and i'm like 25, 26. But what I kept noticing is I would see the person in the lowest moment, but then I'd see them a month later, six months later, 12 months later. And I would watch how some people got smaller. It's almost like their soul constricted they became bitter life owes me stuck back there but then most people which I didn't see coming most people it took them to these new places they never would have gone mmm breakthroughs big wide expansive and then i would notice people

would say things to me like they'd say that was a hell on earth you were with me in that time i i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy and yet now if i hadn't gone through that i can't imagine where i would be right it's almost like we need those things. It was so weird because they would say things like, honestly now, and you could see the word on the tip of their tongue was grateful. They'd be like,

I'm honestly kind of, I can't say grateful, but that's actually the word, but it feels so counterintuitive. And yet, so right away, like my late 20s, there's something upside down about the whole way this thing works.

And all of the endless striving to win, be successful, make a bunch of money, have everybody... Okay, fine. Yeah, that's great. But the actual game that you really want to be playing is like upside down. Yeah. It works so differently than everybody was taught. What's the game we should be playing? Well, what's interesting is how many people have a deep knowing. So they would be like, my job isn't working out.

I don't feel like my life is where it's supposed to be. And just a couple of questions in instantly, I'd say, do you think that? Or are you reading off someone else's script? Or even inviting people, please don't tell me what you think, tell me what sits on top of your heart. And to this day, a lot of the work I do is just inviting people, because soul knows, heart knows, mind chatters, it compares, it's envious, it's jealous, your mind is all over the place

it's like looking at so-and-so's Instagram followers it's it's lovely it's also a wreck yeah but the amount of times when you sit in silence or you create a space where somebody can listen for the real thing I'll often invite people to sink down into heart. And the person knows instantly, oh, that direction, that person, that job. So there's like a deep knowing that all human beings have. And the number of people who would say something within me was telling me things, but I went with what everybody around me was saying. And later I was like, God, I knew it the whole time.

So I think that's actually the great cultural crisis right now. You've talked about in the past about how doubt is actually essential for faith. I think, I don't know how you phrase it. They're like dance partners. Right? It's like you need doubt in order to have faith. I think something like that. Sure, sure, sure. So how should people address doubt, whether it be doubt on the external or internal self-doubt? Also, is there anything you're doubting right now? Yeah. Doubt's really interesting.

I think it's all part of it. Of course you have questions. If you don't have questions right now, where is this thing headed? What is going on? Doubt is all part of it because it's all part of the full spectrum of the human experience. I actually now, the work that I do,

the stuff I do is because when I first started to think about it, I'm like, I don't know if I could pull that off. I don't know. Could I? I don't know. Could that? Would that work?

Really? The great, the great, spiritual Rob Bell. Oh, yeah, sure. Ten-time best-selling author. One of the most influential people in America. Time Magazine. On tour with Oprah. You ask yourself, could I pull this off? The first line of this book is,

my grandma used to keep cash in her bra. Yeah, and she would ask you 10 or two fives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd ask her for a 20 and she'd say, well, 10 or two fives, dude? She'd reach in her shirt. When all of a sudden I realized, oh, this book is you starting way back there and telling what it's

like to be you and all the missteps and awkward moments. Would that work? Could I do that? Is there something there? The question mark, the like curiosity, that's a weird book to write opening with that line like hmm Yeah, that's how it works now for me how How do you find the self-confidence or the belief when you doubt yourself? How do you develop that skill whether it's a spiritual mental physical skill what is that I always ask

where's the joy mmm yeah or where's the life so so is it good or bad is it right or wrong is it not interesting questions the question is well one question is simply where's the curiosity because curiosity is underrated calling is overrated curiosity is underrated. Calling is overrated. Curiosity is underrated. Calling is that sort of high sense of, this is what I'm here. This is my, okay, fine, yeah, whatever. What are you curious about?

Like your whole thing is curiosity. You follow it the whole time. How can I help people in this way? How does it work? You know about this yeah curiosity is the engine so so you'll think about like they you'll see a film that moves you and so you go read interviews with the director the direction always I wanted to tell this story I had this it's like I want to try to make this or

humanitarian work I want to try to help people or education I thought there's a new way to teach people this. Curiosity is the thing. So that's often... So when we doubt ourselves, what should we be thinking as opposed to, am I going to be able to do this? Maybe I'm not good enough. I don't have the skills.

I don't have the experience. What should we be asking instead? Because the doubt is authority, legitimacy, imposter syndrome. What if no one cares? What if it doesn't sell, what if I try it doesn't work. None of those are interesting questions and all of those questions pull you

out of the present moment and put you in the future. That doesn't exist. Right, right. So that's the thing about the only moment we ever have is now is this takes you into a different relationship with time regret Is stuck in the past? Worry is stuck in the future but what's interesting is all of the questions of self-doubt that keep people from doing the thing are in the future which Isn't real that's an illusion So the only interesting question is what do you want to do now?

real that's an illusion so the only interesting question is what do you want to do now like what do you want to do right and and why are you curious about our culture is it was so like you need to get good grades you need to go get a good job instead of like what do you want i think about how many people their family system literally trained them away from their heart. Like at early ages, they had something rising up within heart, demanding expression. And what they were taught is whatever you do, don't listen to that. Actually be suspicious of that.

That's probably why a lot of kids are rebellious. That kid, right. That kid has a problem because that kid's responding to a system that is splitting her from her true self so she's actually responding in a very healthy way to a system that isn't she's rejecting it the great uh some people think the greatest american architect was lewis khan and when he would begin designing a building lewis khan would ask what does this building want to be is that great it's kind of

like a sculptor who's like chiseling away what does this want to be so like you think about every parent with every kid what does this kid want to to be like what do i want this kid to be what we're here to do yeah is to watch this kid discover who they're here to be. That's the only game to be playing. Yeah. So the self-doubt, the lack of confidence, the I don't know if I'll be any good, never an interesting question. The question is, where's the curiosity? What's the thing that something within you is like, oh, I would like to try that.

There's this interesting thing in Hebrew consciousness. Moses in the Torah is told, I put before you, the divine says to Moses, I put before you life and death. And we read life and death as you're here living and then you die. Two modes. Here and then gone. Somewhere else. Dead. But in Hebrew consciousness, life and death are two modes of being right here and right now.

So you could be living, alive, breathing, but actually dying. It's possible to be living and dying. Which I think is really helpful because I'm sure you've interacted with people who are like, this thing over here seems trivial, but it keeps tugging on my sleeve, calling me to it. I get awake in the night thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the life is. So just own it. It's a matter of life and death. Wow.

Something within me dies if I don't try that if I don't lean into my curiosity yeah the thing that's on my heart yeah yeah you got some idea you got some if you reframe it as if I'm not true to whatever this is something within me dies. Yeah, that might be the way, that might get you out of a lot of different situations where you're all bound up and stuck and the energies are all, yeah. I'm curious, what were the few big questions you asked yourself before pastor school?

Did you ask yourself, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of, there's three main questions I feel like a lot of people ask. Why am I here? Or slash, what's my purpose? Is there a God? And what happens after I die? Did you ask yourself those questions ever before going into pastor school and training? What were those answers for you then? And what are those answers for you now? They're probably the same exact, probably the same exact answers. Really? I had, in college, I was in this band. Yes. Lead singer. Lead singer syndrome. Ska band. So it was more like, it was called Alternative at that time in the late 80s, which basically

meant not Bon Jovi. But there was something about creating these songs and then we'd play these shows, like us and like six punk bands in a basement somewhere it was like there's something communal there's all this energy all these bodies there was something about i would write these lyrics something about what i was experiencing and then giving it expression and then watching people sing the lyrics there was some sort of i was doing some, it was like moving,

it was like a tribal fire. You know what I mean? It was like harnessing, it was like lassoing the love and energy in the room and all of us going somewhere together. And I was probably, I was 19. Yeah, so that, there was something in that that was like

naming the thing that we're all experiencing. That it struck a... It was the first time in my life I was like, oh, this is something I... Because there was always a better student. There was always better athletes. There were always cool kids who got invited to all the right parties. Everywhere I turned, the world was ranked. Sound familiar? Yes. they're all the cool kids who got invited all the right parties everywhere I turned the world was ranked sound familiar yes everywhere I turned there was somebody who was winning and I was nine clicks down but what's interesting about that impulse when I stumbled into it is it wasn't

like oh I could be the best at this it was like it tossed out even the idea of ranking it was just this is where the joy is then the band broke up as college bands do and there was something about the big questions the big mysteries what were the big questions for you what are we doing here how's this thing work uh what is what is what is meaning why do some things matter and some things don't? My parents had taken us to church here and there, so I had like, I was familiar with the idea of like spirituality. It always seemed kind of not boring,

just like, if this is it, this should be the juice. The big stuff. Why is it so, like, sweater vests and acoustic guitars? This thing is, like, this should be awesome. So I think something within me was, like, I'm going to do my version of that. Yeah. And in the world I came from,

intellectual rigor was very important. So I was, like, well, then you need to go get a master's degree in divinity, which I laugh now, a master's in divinity. I never at the time was like a master of the divine. Like that's, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's just a ridiculous premise. But so that's sort of in the world, because we all come from these worlds that are like, oh, do that this is how you do it um but yeah it was all what's going on here what

how do you forgive people who have wronged you what uh what kind of universe is this is there a is this whole thing headed somewhere or is it just a series of random events that you sort of duct tape together your own version of uh and then so i learned a number of things but they also you learn stuff and it just creates new questions so that's how it works now is there anything that you were firmly a believer in for i don don't know, the last 20 something years that you've started to question in a different way? That you're like, you know what, maybe that's not true to me anymore.

A set of beliefs, one belief, two beliefs that you question again, that maybe you were so firm on believing. Oh, guarantees. Oh, you're going to be fine. Everything's fine. Instead of, oh, I have no idea how it's going to go. So you used to have the belief that everything's going to work out.

It's all going to be fine. The goal is to comfort. Yes. The goal is to give people a rock-solid foundation. Here are the things you, here's the ground that you can stand on that won't shift. Because that's what everybody wants. Just show me the rug that's not going to get pulled.

Now what? Now how do you think? Uncertainty is baked into the whole thing. The people that we love the most, the structures that we all are like, oh's this will be around the whole way who knows yeah who knows even when i began to study quantum physics and everything is made of atoms that has made of particles and particles come and go and there's probabilities

but ultimately they don't in in empty space a particle comes into existence and then a particle they don't know where it came from they don't know where it goes but the whole thing is a relationship of energy that is deeply deeply mysterious and the more we know about it and the probabilities that help you make airplanes and flat screen tvs it's still i think the uncertainty is all part of it. It's okay. And slightly terrifying, sometimes really terrifying. So like, Lewis, just do these things, you'll be fine. Lewis, do these things and your whole thing might completely catch on fire. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

And you'll be okay. So all the paradoxes and contradictions. Yeah. be okay so all the paradoxes and contradictions yeah all the paradoxes and contradictions you might get everything you ever wanted all your dreams might come true and you might in that moment realize there might be a dull thud of this is it um and that's all part of it. So I think I'm much more, even this book is embracing all the weirdness and painfulness and ache of it.

Instead of how to get rid of it, how to embrace it as all part of it. Don't eliminate the pain and suffering. Right, right, right, the limp. Don't comfort yourself. Don't try to medicate. Don't try to find a new addiction. As all part of it don't eliminate the pain. Yeah, right, right, right the limp don't come for yourself Don't try to medicate don't try to yeah, I'm the new addiction. Yeah the limp sit with it. Yeah. Yeah, you're walking with the limp, but you've Experienced something that's changed you. Mm-hmm. What is certain to you? Is there any certainty?

Now The awareness that you and i are present here in these bodies getting to connect soul to soul and the bottomless infinite joy of that so So more and more of the present moment and all that is present here. More than enough. This, more than enough. That's what's certain.

Nothing else is certain. I love the follow-up question to that. When we talk about how the whole thing works, this is what we get. And then my son Trace is there, and then we'll go home and the family will be there. Yeah, obviously we're all like, that's the lifeblood of life.

But where it'll go, anybody who can nail all that down for you they're trying to sell you something yeah and what do you think is missing for most people who are lacking joy connection awareness what is what is the thing that they're missing that they're not tapping into they're not seeing clearly i would look every one of them in the eyes. I would invite them to take a deep breath. And then I would say to them, you are enough. You are enough exactly as you are.

Accept that you are accepted. You've been loved the whole time. Belonging was never an issue. Why is it so hard for people to believe that? Yeah, good God, we're living in these systems. Let's take an example. How many billions of dollars was spent today on the internet to keep you clicking for advertisements to tell you that

there's something that you need that if you had it then you'd be better off so what it does spatially several billion dollars were spent today to at a deep subtle level reaffirm for you that you're here and there's a better you here. Like that's actually how it works in terms of the psyche, the heart, if you just. Had this, got this, bought this. And every ancient tradition that actually helped people was here, now you're loved, you're okay.

There's a world of wonder and awe and mystery right here. Right here. Did you watch The Social Dilemma? The Netflix? Oh my goodness, you are like the fifth person this week. I had read, is it Jared Lanier, The 10 Reasons to Delete Your Social Media Accounts right now?

I had read that book when it first came out because people had said like this, basically people were like, one of the first people to invent the internet is now saying, wait a second. I shouldn't have done this. So then when someone said he's interviewed in that film, I was like, oh good, yeah, so. Of course I'll watch it.

And I love that what his book is essentially now in his voice and these other voices are chilling, huh? It's crazy. I watched it two, three nights ago. It's like all these ex-product developers at the biggest internet marketing companies, social media companies were like, I wish I could go back and not do what we did. Man, we made these machines. I wish I could go back and not do what we did. Man, we made these machines. They show the statistics of how, like in 2009,

kind of when like social media became a thing, right around there, 2005, 2009, when it started to kind of be more accessible, the suicide rates went up with millennials. Like the suicide rates were kind of like steady for the last 80 years, I guess, by pretty normal, I mean, normal, same amount every year. And then a big spike and it continues. And they're attributing it towards part of this system,

which has obviously tools that benefit us in a lot of ways. It's like with convenience. Okay, I can push a button and in 30 seconds, my food shows up or a car picks me up and takes me somewhere. But with other things where it kind of- has an under it has like an underbelly It tells us everything that we are not we are not enough Exactly, and it advertises to us why we're not enough over again and like

The invention of fire and it can keep you warm and cook your food, and it can burn the whole forest down. That's a good analogy. We are back to, we invented these things that have a tremendous upside and an underbelly. And so while things are way more sophisticated, the same ancient question is, do we have the wisdom and maturity to handle our fire? It's still the question that has always been the question. So the idea that we graduated beyond that question, we're right back to, can we handle the fire? It's a more complicated fire. It's a much more complicated, insidious fire because it doesn't even announce itself as fire.

No. But it's the same question that's always been there yeah what's your spiritual practice look like today as i'm assuming when you were actively a pastor had your church building things up it was a different type of practice i'm assuming maybe i'm wrong yeah how does it look from there to where it is now it's now it's all about the smallest details of life walk the dog in the morning I walk the dog in the morning and remind myself of the mantra, everything you need for today, you'll have when you need it. Probably not even ahead of time. So let's just remember that. It'll come to you when you need it.

Yeah. The dog is pure presence. The dog doesn't remember yesterday. Love, joy. Or the dog's not like, dude, tomorrow's going to rule. The dog can only be here. And it forgets after, like, you leave, and 10 minutes later you come back, it not like, dude, tomorrow's gonna rule. The dog can only be here. And it forgets after like you leave, and 10 minutes later you come back,

it's like, oh, he's here. The dog is only here. That's, there most of the time when I surf, there are dolphins, like this morning. And a dolphin, just a dolphin goes by like I'm a dolphin.

You know what I mean? It's like just pure presence. It only knows how to be here and be a dolphin goes by like I'm a dolphin. You know what I mean? It's like just pure presence. It only knows how to be here and be a dolphin, which sounds so unbelievably simple and is probably the most profound thing ever. So all the details. When Kristen and I got married in the early 90s, in the 1900s we were married,

and you would go get registered you'd go to a department store and like tell them what you wanted and people would buy you this stuff and there were two kinds of plates there was everyday plates and then you also registered for like fine plates so we just basically got two different kinds of white plates. And in the cupboard in the kitchen are the two kinds of plates. And I use the really nice ones, which are just another version of a white plate every day. Because today we're celebrating because it's today. We're not waiting for someday. And I tell that story that's completely trivial and ridiculous

because in my experience, it's the attention to the details, which is where the sacred and the holy are found. My friend Dan Klein says, how you do anything is how you do everything. So as opposed to there's a temple which is the like holy sacred space and then there's regular space and you leave regular space and go to some exalted other space I think of it like the whole thing is a temple mm-hmm I think this conversation is as holy and sacred.

So that's how it works now. I think you told me a couple years ago, like everything is church. Yes. Like we're churching right now. Absolutely. You don't need to go to church to have a spiritual practice. It was always a deep experience of what it means to be human. Yeah, that was always, what else was the goal?

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that was always, what else was the goal? Right, right. Yeah, so, yeah, I'm much more aware, trying to think how to say this, becoming more and more aware of how there's always more going on in any moment in any interaction. So you're at a party and you meet this person and what do you do, what do you do, your head like, oh oh that sounds boring next person right it's just learning to go oh i have no idea what that means tell me more

it's literally you might be like one question away from now we're in look what this thing turned into it's interesting talking about meeting people or in a networking event or something. When I got into the business world, I remember thinking, I have no credibility. I'm just this young guy with no experience. I don't know how to make myself interesting or smart in this moment. And so what I just started doing was ask interesting questions and just didn't say anything. And people after every event, a couple hours of networking, I'm just asking questions and listen like so intently and tell me more, tell me more.

Everyone's like, man, you're the most interesting person in this room. Isn't that funny? It's like not trying to be the smartest. That's what bonded us when we met because I was like, oh good. Somebody who's like me, who's like, I'll tell you what I've already noticed. I'm going to leave this event knowing more than you. Yeah. Because I think all of you are way more interesting

than you even think you are. I'm going to ask you all sorts of questions because I find humans endlessly fascinating. Endlessly fascinating. What's the question you think you'll stop asking the universe? Oh, why? You'll stop asking why? It's just not as interesting anymore.

Really? Yeah. Why is it set up this way? Why do these things happen? Why do these... Have you ever got an answer and you're like, oh, okay, good. And even all the questions of horrible things and suffering and tragedy, why?

Like, why did this bad thing happen? Why coronavirus? Why did people die this way? Why do you? Yeah, I don't know. So you stop asking that. It's a world. It's free to be a world.

What else would happen? I mean, this isn't cold and cackly and this is heartfelt. How else would a world work? Where everything is perfect all the time? Like had padding, like everything had soft cotton padding on it. Do you know what I mean? There were no cliffs, so there was no altitude.

So there was no water. But like you wouldn't, it's a world. So I think there's a number of those sorts of questions. When did you stop asking why? As I began to realize the moments of, the moments in life, the real joy, the moments when you were caught up in something, you left behind a whole world of duality, right, wrong, winning, losing. The moments of love, the moments when you were caught up in a conversation, an event, some transcendent anything,

are the moments Lewis was no longer looking at his watch, was no longer evaluating even meaning itself. Think about how the moments that have been moments you would look back on and say, that's what it's all about. Even the idea in the moment you weren't going, well, this is meaningful as opposed to not meaningful. Or, well, this is significant. You left even behind those categories because you

were just there. You were just experiencing something that exists even beyond all the standard categories that is, it's this, it's this, it's this, or it's this. When I look back on parts of my journey to the struggle, the challenge, the beginning stage, the idea stage of something, I look back and I'm like, gosh, that's really where the juice was. Yes. Not when I had it all figured out

or when the thing was done, that's where a lot of juice was. And then as I look at, and so was every feedback moment or failure, so was every lesson, so was every moment in between the end result, and so was the end result of bringing something full circle and be like, wow, isn't this cool? Look what I can create from an idea. It's all of it. Yeah. So your consciousness and awareness

of this unfolding of Lewisness and your being in it, but also witnessing to it with wonder and awe. Exactly. Is the game. That's the thing. That's it. That's the thing. It's not trying to achieve something. It's enjoying the moment and saying, oh, let's see what happens in this process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the yogi tradition, the most enlightened, awakened ones. tradition the most uh enlightened awakened ones um they they are the ones always winking and smiling all the wise ones are always smiling because it's like blessed is the one who's in on the joke they always talk about um they stick around simply to enjoy the liberation of others it's funny you say that because i i saw a dalai lama speak one time you probably got him on speed dial but i saw him speak one time.

And the first thing he did, he like comes up, it's like this old jolly man, right? Half speaks English. And he comes up and sits down and he goes, oh, I just went to the bathroom and like something like this, or I just farted.

Like he said something that you would never expect the Dalai Lama to say. And I hear that he does that all the time. It's just to kind of be like, hey, this is like a fun environment. It doesn't have to be this holy, sacred he does that all the time it's just to kind of be like hey this is like a fun environment it doesn't have to be this holy sacred i have all the answers he's like yeah i i have challenges too and that's part of it i did a q a with him like with his bishop tutu him me like a couple of us in a row on a stage and his anybody from the audience and the guy behind him in the gray suit the tan suit speaking And his... And anybody from the audience. And the guy behind him in the gray suit, the tan suit.

Speaking, yeah, translating. And so people from the audience could ask questions, and then we would all take turns. Oh my God, so much fun. Did he do something similar? So much fun. By the way... Oh, I just farted.

By the way, he has some fans. Like, people make like a Lewis Howes t-shirt and give it to you when you're out somewhere, whatever, I assume, or bake you cookies in the shape of an L, whatever that is. But he... I'm telling you...

He has people tattooing his face on his body. People carving stuff out of wood that took him 27 years. No, it's a next level. Just to say, here, it's my moment to give to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Oh, unbelievable. But he gets asked a question, and he goes.

You're moderating. Mm-mm, no, there's a moderator, and then there's like a couple of us on the stage doing this thing. He gets asked a question and he goes... He takes forever. Time disappears into the ether. He's just waiting. He consults with the guy in the khaki suit behind him.

He does like a... And the whole arena is just waiting. And then he goes... behind him, he does like a. And the whole arena is just waiting, and then he goes, I don't know. That's what he did. I never forget it. How old was I? 38. I remember in the moment, like getting hit by a bolt

of lightning, like, he just gave me the greatest gift. Like, you know what I mean? It was one of those, it was like a huge moment for me. Dalai Lama was just like, I don't know. And he didn't add any special sauce to it. He didn't add any disclaimer, no ironic, no like hyperlink to a website, you know what I mean? I don't know, end of question, next question. Just let it float, just let it float there.

How you think about that, what you're thinking about me, because I don't know. So going back to your question about the why, actually now that you're helping me process this, I just kept noticing that the why was important to a degree and then it didn't take you where you really want to go. That this experience that we're having here is ultimately an experience and why can easily keep you stuck in your head but the mind is lovely it's a wonderful servant but not the best master because it's a full-bodied experience that we're having here so we're all this integrated essence that and it's out of body experience at the same time as your body is something happening within you so I think that's why the why I just kept noticing with that helpful to a degree and then you just you know I mean you

know it's funny I'm probably too much of a curious child all the time. My mom, about a year ago, she would do things that would frustrate me. I'd say, mom. Wait, as a kid or a year ago? No, now. My whole life. And I'd be like, mom, why did you do this? I'm like, she'll just say something

or she'll think something or she'll have a way of doing something. I'd be like, why did you do this? Or why think something or she'll have a way of doing something. I'm like, why did you do this? Or why did you do it that way? Why didn't you do it this way? And she said to me something a year ago that makes me crack up. She still says this today.

She says, I stopped answering why questions. And so I still try to like get, get at her and be like, why'd you do this? And she'll say, well, honey, I stopped answering why questions. And it really- It's kind of brilliant. It really frustrates me, but it is kind of brilliant at the same time because I'm like,

she doesn't want to continue to try to go down a rabbit hole of finding an answer. And she's just like, this is where I'm at and this is what I'm doing and take me or leave me type of mentality. So I still try to get her though and say, well, why did you do that, mom? I stopped answering why questions. That is very, very funny.

That is very funny. I still want to know why to so many things, though. Yeah, good. Oh, yeah, I'm insanely curious. We don't have a problem with why questions. We have a problem with when why questions are the wrong questions for the thing we're actually after. Or it's so mysterious

that we're not supposed to know the answer. Yeah, no, the why is awesome. Unless your why isn't getting you, yeah. Unless you're, oh, this is something else. This is something else. There isn't some data that fixes this one. Yeah.

There is something else. There isn't some data that fixes this one. Yeah. There is something about this moment right here that is the answer. What is the greatest truth that you've discovered? I love bringing you all these questions. Joy. Uh-huh. But joy is not, happy exists in a binary, happy positive negative pessimist optimist those

are all binaries joy wraps its arms around the full spectrum of the human experience joy is joy is when you see how fragile, temporary, fleeting this experience is. COVID, cancer, natural disasters, forest fires. Joy is when you come face to face with just how fleeting this experience is and it heightens your gratitude and appreciation for what you do have right now so that's what that was the breakthrough for me was coming to see that joy is we're here

and we're in this moment yeah we made it here it here. And it's all we got, so we should probably enjoy it. For whatever reason, when you're saying that right now, all I'm thinking about is the chaos, pain, cancel culture mentality that's happening right now where everyone is, I don't want to say everyone, where it seems like what we witness online, it seems like there's a lot of people attacking. And there's not a lot of space for, let me hear a different perspective. Even if I firmly disagree, don't believe in what they're saying, think it's harmful what they're saying,

what's the spiritual approach to communicating and finding joy with someone you disagree with firmly? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well. Like how do we navigate this spiritually as opposed to you're canceled, you're bad, you're wrong. I don't agree, so never speak to me. Yeah. Shut down your accounts. Never, you know, how do we spiritually evolve to find joy and love in this space?

Yeah, because this, I call it the under net it's the underbelly of the Internet is actually collapsing in on itself because of a misunderstanding of the stewardship of energies so each of us we have these sacred energies they get us up in the morning because we're here to take part in a new creation, in a better ordering of the world. So you ask people enough questions, you can get it. Some people are organizers. Some people are healers. Some people are here to speak up.

Some people are here to follow their curiosity. Some people are scientists. They're here to help us with the facts. Some people are here to organize our common life together as an act of public service. Like there are these core essences and impulses in each of us. If you do not exercise those energies and use them and give them expression for the greater good, then they're all bottled up within you. The exercise of your energies in the world will always involve obstacles, challenges.

You'll have to move from the fantasy of what it could be to actually exercising those energies and doing something. And if you don't exercise them, but you just spout off about how things should be, that's actually called fantasy. You're stuck in, you're sending Facebook links to people about how you'd run the world instead of going down to the town council

and actually getting involved in something. And so what happened is of going down to the town council and actually getting involved in something. And so what happened is millions of people aren't exercising these sacred energies to actually make a better world. There is this new super easy way with your thumbs that you can spout off and then live with the lie that you've actually done something.

So at some level, each person just asks, do I want to be one more person throwing stones at other people who aren't in the game, actually? Or do I want to be somebody who dies to the fantasy and actually does something. So to me, if you start thinking about all of the energy that is being spent, which is why it's so nasty and so vitriolic, that's all energy. So one way to think about it would be, because I've noticed this with you, and this is something that you and I, I think, bond over is, you get angry, I get angry. I see things that get me like, but somewhere in there, you realize that's going to consume

me and not take me anywhere interesting. But if I build, I picture it like a converter. Mm-hmm. I just decided to build a converter somewhere in here. And all that anger, frustration, rage about how the world should be better and it's not, I'm going to convert into energy to actually do my part. How do you personally... And by the way, I should say, that's not like some sort of arrogant... That's just because I know who I am and I'll just wreck. I'll be home looking at comments.

I don't actually go on social media, so I kind of know what you're talking about, but kind of not. I think that's actually the great invitation in our world right now. So if someone has a family member that is against their beliefs and is aggressively combative in whatever way, whether it's political or religious, whatever, or they see someone online that is really against their beliefs, how should we emotionally approach those moments? Whether it's a family member, a friend, a colleague, a political figure we see that we're completely against for whatever reason, should we be judging and saying why this is bad, or is there a different approach,

more spiritual, that could actually help better? Right, right, I always just ask questions of exposure. How does filling your head with that help you do what you're here to do? So, if you and this family member have had nine awkward Thanksgivings in a row, A, you realize you don't have to go to Thanksgiving. B, maybe you just say to Uncle Phil,

"'Uncle Phil, I get that you have a little altar "'in your house to Tucker Carlson, that's nice, "'but I get where you're coming from, "'but we can't keep having this conversation, okay?' "' cause you can't take people where they don't want to go. Right. So oftentimes it's just a straight up boundaries issue. Yeah. Yeah. How does this help you do what you're here to do? Cause we need a hundred percent of you. Like if you spent 43% of your energy today trying to flush out the toxins from these people, this group, this coworker, this member, we could use 100% of your energies. On something positive, yeah.

So it's probably a rediscovery of your own dignity. Like you don't have to take that. Like you don't have to take that. If you want to go asking questions, if you want to go pursue your curiosity and try and understand how somebody could see the world that way, then frame it that way. And then sit down with them and say, help me understand here because I don't understand how you could post that. But then do it in that spirit, which is to help enlarge and expand yourself. But if it's just like a passive, I'm just getting shot at. expand yourself but if it's just like a passive i'm just getting shot at when i meet people who are like the work that i do and help people get unstuck in their work and they're like yeah i just i'm just uh i'm so i got all these voices in my head i got just shot at i'm like where and they're

like well the comments on facebook well stop reading them yeah so i think part of it is just giving people the permission slip does that help you do what you're here to do? No? Okay. Yeah. You don't have to do any of that. You can just make up your own rules. Yeah. And how do you look at judgment?

Like judging other people that maybe you don't agree with or that are doing things you don't think are right or wrong. How should we frame judgment for ourselves? Is it a helpful thing to judge someone else? Is it not supporting our mission when we constantly look at someone and talk about them and how they're doing it the wrong way? In the Greek language, there are three subtleties to the word judge. The word judge in the original Greek is the word krino, K-R-I-N-O. So there's krino like judge, like judicial, like a judge.

So there's just a basic law function of judging. Then there's judging also, the second meaning of the word is decision. So it's just you, Lewis, think that isn't smart. That's not loaded with anything. That's just that person says that. I don't think that takes't smart that's not loaded with anything mm-hmm that's just that person says that I don't think that takes into account the facts I think that's misguided misinformed ignorant the third thing has a subtle spiritual energy attached to it and that is personal righteousness at the expense of someone else mm-hmm That is judgment in pushing somebody down

in order to make myself feel higher and raise myself up. So that is a distinction that can be incredibly helpful. Is this, okay, this feels, maybe I call this judgment, but is this judgment simply like, yeah, we're always making decisions all the time. Do you like that color or that color that's a judgment is this just a decision like i would go with this not this i would vote for this person not this person or is this i'm better right better they're wrong which takes you into worthy more loved that takes us into the same old game of if I can just put them down I can get at this ache mmm but if

we go back to you've been loved the whole time worth was never the game we were playing yeah you've always been a son a daughter of the divine what else would you be yeah you're good in your deepest being the deepest truth about you is that you've always belonged you've always mattered of course yeah that helps me yeah so then that that no this is not about me somehow better this is we disagree I think you missed it. I think it's a fax mask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come from more of a neutral place of like, here's the information I think, here's the information you think.

It's not, you're a bad person or wrong. Right, right. And that actually then, feeling free to be like, no, I think you completely missed it, actually often is the doorway into compassion. Oh, dear God, look at the world that person's in. It's a world of scarcity. It's a world of lack. Look at the system that they're a part of that trained them and educated them.

It gave them a horrifying view of the world. No wonder they're frightened. They were taught that anything involving caring for the earth is a hoax or a conspiracy. That's all they've ever heard. They've never heard any other perspective. At least at some level, you can find some sort of compassion yeah how do we communicate with those types of people that have

different beliefs than us or no aren't willing to see another side if you're willing to at least like let me step in your shoes and see where you're coming right right how do we come together sometimes Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. To me, the real art is can I look far enough inside of you to find me? So political polarization. Polarization is the inability to see myself in someone else. And so for many people, this is musculature that never got built up. So like when you're resentful, are you like peak Lewis rationality when you're filled with resentment?

Zero. Exactly. So you think about, or you think about early, early stages of consciousness, like archaic level, when you don't know if you're going to be able to get enough food for the day. Yeah, you're not thinking clearly.

Well, there's a different Lewis. Yeah. So part of polarization and the overcoming of polarization is Learning to see oh, of course if You were told this had only ever heard this and every factory in your town got shut down and no one seemed To care and somebody came along and said i'll take care of you of course you that you'd rather blow up us if a system completely failed

you of course you would want to blow up that system i would at least i don't have to agree still hold on to judgment and yet oh god i i can this now is a much more interesting story it's much more human story than just those people but what i'm hearing you say is sometimes we're not going to be able to communicate with people to get them to see a different perspective this is the great mystery of human consciousness actually it's really interesting helpful for me jesus tells the story about different kinds of soil he's's telling his students some soil is like really fertile. Some soil is rocky and the seed can't find any purchase. It's almost like Jesus is saying to his disciples, I'm going to go talk to these people and teach them. I'm teaching about

love, generosity, nonviolence. Basically, these seeds I'm putting out, some of these seeds are going to take root and some aren't. But what I love is as if Jesus says to his disciples, I don't even really get how it works. I don't even get why this person is going to be like, oh, thank God, that's the most illuminating thing ever. That changes the whole game. And this person is going to be like, I don't know, it sounds like fake news. So think about people you know that you grew up with in Ohio. Why are you here talking to me? Right. And people you went to high school with live 0.3 miles away from where they grew up.

No, no, they're living at home in the basement. Right. No judgment, nothing but love. But why did you just want to get into a bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger world? And other people who came from identical setting are fine. Or you get together with somebody from your past and like they're still telling the same jokes. Like two minutes in, you're like,

oh my God, they see the world exactly like they did when we were 21. It's the great, consciousness is the great mystery at the heart of the human experience. And it's the endless black box for science. In the moment somebody's like, well consciousness is just, you know, your brain functioning in certain ways. Yeah, but you were just aware enough to say that so there's the

you behind the you behind the you behind you and I think that's why certain people respond to this moment with almost like don't tell me the facts don't tell me and other people are like okay tell me more what's yeah uh it's the great mystery it is truly what do you think is going to happen after the next after all of this has happened what do you think will be the next phase of our existence after this year or however long this year turns into in times of disruption trauma and tragedy you either dig in your heels and give your energies to reclaiming the thing that got lost and making it great again and idealizing it as once great or you let the pain and disruption break you open and you find the seeds of imagination

to build a new thing. And right now, it happened after 9-11. After 9-11, you could see, just go kill the people who did this and just raise the flag even higher. And you know what? Let's cover an NFL field with an entire flag. Let's have soldiers around. Let's have F-14s fly overhead just to make sure we know this game is happening in America. Let's just double down on we're the greatest ever. And then after 9-11, you also had people go, why do these people do not like us? Is this about oil? Is this about violence?

Is this about who America is in the world? Let's ask better questions about what it means to be global citizens. So you're seeing it all over again. You are seeing an invitation because the political is always personal. So the political is just the macro of the personal. So whenever someone's like, I'm not political, I'm like, get out. Political is just all of us together. So all the stuff that happens as an individual, the political is just the larger amalgamation of that.

So whenever you wonder why are all those people doing that, just ask why does one person respond that way? So I think, well, we're seeing it. As always, it's the same ancient invitation. You dig in your heels, you get smaller, you constrict, and you try to make this country more how it was supposed to be, which generally means everybody looked like us. Or you go, hey, it's way more diverse. How awesome is that? And it's sticky and it's got all these challenges,

so let's see what the next America looks like you can see it at every level and it's always always masquerades as an intellectual argument but it's actually just a posture of the heart mmm are you open or are you closed are you up for the new thing that we haven't seen yet or are you desperately trying to just get back to an earlier thing that made more sense? Disorientation, reorientation. Yeah. All this is so not new.

You know what I mean? If you're like me and you've been giving your life to sort of trying to understand the larger patterns, this whole thing is nuts. I'm like everybody else. I wake up in the morning like, what the? On what planet do I have to wear a mask for two different things with these forest fires? This is all entirely new

and it's as ancient and predictable. It's a pattern. There's an upheaval. People have a choice. There's seasons of this. It'll happen and then it'll be more stable for a period of time. Something will happen. Sure, sure.

Yeah, yeah. Just being okay with the uncomfortable. And always looking for spirit is lurking in all of it spirits lurking in all of it i'm going to ask you a question you probably don't like answering i love it this is the first question where you've added to the question you've like loaded the question. I feel like any spiritual leader or spiritual advocate, religious advocate, gets either asked this a lot or they don't like it. Maybe I'm wrong. Now I'm really, now I'm like, let's do this question.

Is there a God? What is God? god what is god if there is with the atheist the sam harris atheists that i've had on and people of different religious backgrounds and i feel like people always want to know what this answer is i'm just curious where you're at and what you're what is there a God and what is God? The question is, what is the nature of this experience we're having? And here's the problem with the God question. We are having this experience. Everybody you just mentioned, we all are here, we're conscious, we're aware, and we're having this experience. So the question has never been, is there a God or not?

The question is, what is the nature of the experience we're having? And traditionally, God was the name for the depth and the ultimate source of this experience. So whenever people want to talk, the moment you've've proved god you've just denied that god because that god exists in all the same categories as everything else you know what i mean so when the person comes in says i'm going to prove there's a god and this person goes no i'm going to prove there's not a god well those are just two dualities this and then this is defined an atheist is a not theist but if there's a source to this experience we're having that source would have to be the source of the

categories of both are you with me okay so the very nature those are called dualities the very nature of this experience then if there is a source to it that source would transcend whatever categories you've come up with. So there has to be a creator of the source. Yes, a source of the source. And this is why people always get bungled up in it is the one person sets out the believer to prove that God exists, but you've just proved a thing that if you could prove it, you've proved it over and against it not

existing. So you just shot yourself in the foot. This person says there is no God, whatever they mean by that, but they're here having experience with the rest of us. So I would always say, absolutely, just not the God that's contained in the question that asked if there's a God. Is there a God? Yes, just not the one in that question. Which, what is that one in that question that asked if there's a god is there a god yes just not the one in that question which what is that one in that so then i would say here's an example is the universe a cold dark place of lack or is the universe a place of endless love and generativity. Yes. To both. Right, right, right. So something within you, the nature of this experience is vast and diverse

and blows your hair back one minute and then crushes your heart in another. Those to me are the interesting questions. What is the nature? And the reason why I ask that is for Lewis Howes in your experience which story are you living like what story when you line up with it lines you up with something bigger than yourself mm-hmm like is it better to forgive everybody who's wronged you or is it a

better way of life if you hold on to all that bitterness and let it eat you away those to me are actually the must better much better God questions mm-hmm is it economically which is the better story just get your piece step on everybody you have to, and then stockpile, or there's enough for everybody. Let's arrange ourselves in a way that distributes it in a way that acknowledges the dignity of every person, to have their basic needs met. And those aren't like cheesy cliches, sort of,

those are like actually the questions those to me are actually the God questions there's this ancient story about Moses wants to know God's name and God says I am from the book I do a whole thing on I like I am is there a God?

I am being itself less a noun and more a verb. Less does it exist and more, what is the nature of the thing that we all agree does exist? Less you stand over it and prove it and more something you're caught up again. I tell this story about when I was in seminary,

this feeling that you can pin down the butterfly and the moment you can pin down the butterfly so that it's perfectly still and you can study it is the exact moment the butterfly can't fly so the moment you can pin down the ultimate source so you can just study it in all of its exact detail is the moment you're not actually talking about source. And that's what we think about God. Yeah, I grew up in a religion. I think you know it's called Christian science. And in the religion,

the definition of God is love with a capital L. Just like up on the church was God is love, a capital L. Just like up on the church was God is love, capital L, and God is life, truth, love, mind, all capital letters. And it's the energy of it. It's not like God is this thing. It's in us. Right, right, right. And what we've seen over especially past 100 years the god who's somewhere else the object somewhere else who may or may not intervene in this place from time to time um that god has died a number of people talk about how uh god died in the holocaust like six million people died and whoever that super being is doesn't show up okay

um so so one of the things i think is a lot i've noticed has helped for a lot of people is just Like six million people died and whoever that super being is doesn't show up. Okay. So one of the things I think is a lot, I've noticed has helped for a lot of people is just say some gods die. I mean, it worked for you for a while, but some gods die. It's okay. Yeah. Because that way of ordering things in your mind, that way of doesn't work anymore. Okay. That God died. Because it's hard for someone to ask the question,

why did this happen to six million people if God up in the sky is supposed to be looking out for us? Yeah, whatever that framework is, if that was the framework, it can't sustain that event. So out with that framework. And for a lot of people, especially like your listeners who grew up in religious settings that taught them a way of the world and then that way no longer works.

And they're like, what the who? It's completely normal and healthy to let an old understanding, you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay. Just like we've talked about this whole episode, something is always needing to die or leave. Yeah, it's okay. And we're always going to be creating something Just like we've talked about this whole episode, something is always needing to die or leave. Yeah, it's okay.

And we're always going to be creating something new within ourselves, within relationships. Structures need to die. We need to create something new as we evolve. Yeah, absolutely. In one of your talks, you talked about the world is constantly evolving and expanding. I remember the whiteboard.

The triangle. We started, yeah. And everything is constantly growing. The universe is growing constantly, right? Yeah. expanding I remember the the whiteboard triangle we started yeah and everything is constantly growing the universe is growing yeah constantly right yeah and things need to die these need to be created in order for it to grow yes that's how it works death and rebirth there's a great theologian Paul Tillich who described God is the ground of our being and there's a great theologian, Paul Tillich, who described God as the ground of our being. And there's a friend of mine, Rabbi Nachum, who defines God as living presence.

The sense that you're here, that you're not alone, that there's something that binds us together. Yeah. That there's something sustaining us and inviting us into new futures. I think, I don't know if it's the country Bhutan that practices thinking about their death five times a day and they're supposed to be like some of the happiest people in the world. I think it's the country Bhutan.

Oh, nice, nice. Oh yeah, sure. Where they think about their death five times a day and they're supposedly the happiest people, the happiest country in the world. And I think when we embrace the fact that it's not the end of the world when something dies or my death,

it's like we bring more presence to what you've been talking about, that this is the only moment. Don't focus on the anxiety of my death tomorrow, 100 years from now, whatever it may be. Focus on this moment. It'll bring me more joy and happiness. Absolutely.

Which brings me closer to source, universe, God. Absolutely. And you're going to see, I mean, think about, like you see that footage. Let's just pick some random Middle Eastern country. Somebody dies. And you see that footage of everybody throwing themselves on the casket as it's led through the village and they're mourning and wailing and sort of sophisticated westerners like oh it's so primitive it's so sort of and then people go to a funeral here and everybody dresses up and sits perfectly still apologizes for a tear during the eulogy and you

think which one is the more primitive response to death the and that the naturalness of death so our ancestors what 300 years ago 400 years ago birth happened your mom was like in the tent a thousand years ago that the tent maybe the next room over, next tent over. And then when Grandpa died, he laid down in the tent and stopped moving. So you and I, 500,000, 2,000 years ago, life and death, the comings and goings, happened right here. In front of us. A completely natural part of this experience we're having. And now they happen, I don't know in a hospital for Larson lights Somewhere so no wonder people have difficult times with the death that always brings about a rebirth

That's endlessly happening in our lives. Yeah, we're cut off from this as a natural thing of life What you're seeing people rediscover just the fact that we're talking about it now. We're rediscovering all this. A couple final questions for you. I love it. Before I ask these questions, if you guys want better questions and better answers, make sure you check out this book right now, Everything is Spiritual.

Who we are and what we're doing here, which is a question a lot of people have. You're going to be fascinated by this book. Make sure you check it out. Every piece of content that Rob Bell puts out, I try to dive into, and I feel like I'm a better human being when I dive into it. So make sure you check this out.

Check out your podcast, social media. You are real Rob Bell on both Instagram and Twitter. RobBell.com as well. Is that the- There we go. Where you can, if you want to be coached by Rob, he's doing something very special right now where he's bringing on small groups of people

to really help them get unstuck in their stuckness. You can check out all this fascinating stuff that he's doing at robbell.com. And hopefully you'll be able to tour again in the future because if you've never seen him live, you need to see him live. It's a special treat. It's a spiritual experience i highly recommend so much i know that's where you shine i miss it so much your giftedness it's like walking the dog the other day

and i got tears in my eyes thinking about how much i love a room a theater full of people and we're all about to have an experience you You're recreating your 19-year-old rock band. That is love to you. We are who we are. You're recreating it. Yeah, yeah. That's the times that brought you the most joy, the memories,

and you create that now in a different version. In a re-engineered way. I'll just own it. Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how it works. So you guys make sure you check this book out. A question I have for you is,

what's the question you wish more people asked you that they don't ask you? That is really interesting to me because a couple of different people have asked that and I don't think about life like that. I don't, I would have said it. Yeah. I'm much more interested in who this person is I'm with.

And who are they? And what's it been like to be them? And I just assume whoever I'm interacting with has some gift for me, for us. So it's funny. Every time I'm asked that question like it's not how I see it like some there's something that I just wish you I'll just tell you otherwise let's talk about you yeah okay I've asked you your three truths and your definition of greatness in previous interviews so if you guys want to hear that make sure you go check out the previous interviews

we'll link them up and they're going to blow you away these interviews as well. So I'll ask you this question, which I don't know if I've asked you, and it's what's your definition of love? Love. Here's my definition. I'm in my kitchen. Kristen's there. This year we celebrated 26 years of marriage wow congrats she's like the best it's like we're just getting started we have three kids one of them has their phone out and is playing songs on the speaker in the kitchen one of them is showing us all something from tick tock my daughter is wearing a bucket hat she She's 11. Saying something funny like, bro.

And the dog is there. And there's food around. And I'd rather be nowhere in the universe. So love is less an abstract concept or feeling and more something we're in. So like, that'll be tonight. Probably a couple hours. Yeah, that's right now when you ask right now in 2020 on this day when you asked me about love. And there's a pandemic. And there's massive social unrest for some very heartbreaking and good reasons.

There's forest fires so you can't be outside because the water, the air quality. There's massive political polarization and upheaval. We don't know how long we're going to be in our house under lockdown. But we'll be there together. And they'll be playing some song and we'll be there together. And they'll be playing some song and we'll be laughing. And all is not well, but all is well. There's so much pain and suffering in the world. And we're here, we're alive,

and we're going through it together. So there's nowhere I'd rather be. That's love for me right now. That's a nice definition. Yeah, it is. It really is. Well, I always appreciate you, my man. I always appreciate your friendship, your wisdom.

I'm grateful for how you show up consistently. I'm so glad we know each other. Yeah, man. It's a beautiful thing. I love your questions. Thank you, brother. I'm so glad we know each other. Yeah, man. It's a beautiful thing. I love your questions. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. It's really meaningful. Make sure you guys get the book.

Everything is spiritual. It's going to be a game changer for you. Get it for a friend, especially during this time. You're going to need this right now. It's going to be very helpful. Check out Rob's podcast as well, and you'll be a better person by doing that. Rob, thanks, man. Appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm telling you, I did not want it to stop because Rob always shares incredible wisdom to help us make mysterious things less complicated in the world. We have so much going on in the world and our inner world has a lot going on as well. And I always want to simplify these things to make our lives just a little bit smoother, a little less chaotic in all of the chaos that's happening. And how do we truly find peace in chaos? And that's one of the reasons why I love having Rob on the podcast. If you haven't listened to

our previous interviews, we'll have those in the show notes. Just go to lewishouse.com slash 1018. You'll see all the notes of the previous interviews, which will blow your mind as well. We talked about in those, make sure to check those out. But please share this with a friend, someone you think that would be inspired to have more spiritual tools to guide them for inner peace, mastering grief, and understanding God and the universe and the world during these times. So share this link lewishouse.com slash 1018, or just copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this Apple podcast, Spotify, places like that. And if you want to have inspirational messages sent to your phone from me every single week, then join my texting list.

Just text the word podcast right now to 614-350-3960 and I'll send you inspirational and motivational messages every single week. And again, please tag Rob Bell over on social media when you're sharing this out. Tag myself as well so we can stay connected over there and I can thank you for listening and connecting to this episode. And I can thank you for listening and connecting to this episode.

And I want to leave you with this quote from a French novelist, N.I.S. Neen, who said, the possession of knowledge does not kill the sense of wonder and mystery. There is always more mystery. As you know, I'm a very curious person. With over a thousand episodes, I'm always asking questions. And even when I believe I've got the answers to one question, there always seems to be a few more questions behind that. But it's okay. As long as we're on the journey to finding peace with all the mystery and doing our best every single day, that's all we can really ask for.

And I want to remind you that you have not been reminded lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.