The School of Greatness - 1051 CIA Director REVEALS All: Making Mistakes, Being a Leader & Inside the Bin Laden Mission w/John Brennan

Episode Date: December 28, 2020

“Integrity is the distinction between right and wrong.”John Brennan was the director of the CIA from 2013 until 2017, and during that time he was responsible for intelligence collection, analysis, covert action, counterintelligence, and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services. From 2009 to 2013, John was assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism. In this insightful conversation, Lewis and John discuss a range of topics like How to make sure you’re not being followed or tracked by other agents, the months leading up to the Bin Laden mission, the three common principles that made the presidents John worked with effective leaders and so much more!For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1051Check out John Brennan's book: UNDAUNTED: My Fight Against America’s Enemies, at Homeand Abroad.Master Your Mind and Defy the Odds with David Goggins: https://link.chtbl.com/715-podMaster the Art of Negotiating in Business and Life with Former FBI Agent Chris Voss: https://link.chtbl.com/902-podKobe Bryant on Mamba Mentality, NBA Titles, and Oscars: https://link.chtbl.com/691-pod

This is episode number 1051 with the former CIA director, John Brennan. Sometimes it shakes your confidence, certainly. It makes you wonder whether, not just whether the decisions that you made were wrong, but just, you know, how are you going to be able to make future decisions? Of course, we have to take care of our own country and our own people, but that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some

time with me today. Now let the class begin. Lao Tzu once said, when you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you. And Albert Einstein said, whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters. John Brennan was the director of the CIA from 2013 until 2017. And during that time, he was responsible for intelligence collection, analysis, covert action, counterintelligence, and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services. From 2009 to 2013, John was assistant to the president for Homeland Security and counterterrorism. I was fascinated by everything that John was sharing. I didn't want this conversation to stop. There was so much I wanted to learn. And it was an honor to talk with John. And here is

incredible stories and wisdom. And I can't wait for you to hear this. In this episode, we discuss how to make sure you're not being followed or tracked by other agents, the months leading up to Bin Laden's mission, and the most nerve-wracking 90 minutes for Brennan, the details of possible attacks after 9-11 that were stopped by John and his team, which presidents John was inspired by the most while he was working with them, making mistakes and being a leader, how to navigate that, how to deal with the responsibility of making incredibly tough decisions, how you can tell if a person is lying to you or telling the truth, the three common principles that made the president's effective decision makers and leaders and the qualities you should develop

right now if you want to become the president of the United States, and so much more. It was truly fascinating conversation. Make sure to share it with a friend that you think would be inspired, lewishouse.com slash 1051, or you can just copy and paste this link wherever you're listening to it,

on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or anywhere else. And make sure to subscribe over on Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and review if you're inspired by this mission and you want to spread greatness to more people. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only John Brennan. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. I am very excited. We have New York Times bestselling author John Brennan in the house.

Thank you so much for being here. It's great to be with you, Lewis. And you have seen some of the craziest things in the last 40 years working with the CIA, almost for four decades. Is that right? You were working there? Well, I worked first for 25 years at with the CIA, almost for four decades. Is that right? You were working there? Well, I worked first for 25 years at CIA and retired, went off to the private sector to see what it was like to earn a living outside of the appropriations of Congress. To make real money.

Well, yeah, for at least a little while. Then went back in for the entire eight years of the Obama administration, four of which were at the CIA. So 29 years at CIA and four plus years at the White House. What would you say is the craziest thing that you had to deal with? Because it seems like every four to six years, there's something crazy that happens. What would you say was the biggest stress for you that you needed to face and help overcome? Well, there's so many to choose from. There are all my interactions with Congress and the hyper-partisan environment there. I think, as I point out in the book, I'm an equal opportunity offender. So there are people on both sides of the aisle that have called for my resignation of firing over the years. Everyone wanted you fired. What if you're fired? Yeah, yeah. It's sort of the life of a CIA director and intelligence officer. But obviously the bin Laden raid was a very nerve-wracking, anxiety-producing, nail-biting situation.

Dealing with the aftermath of 9-11 and trying to ensure that CIA was able to respond very quickly to prevent recurrences of those attacks. And that aftermath was particularly challenging because we were also dealing with the Washington sniper, the anthrax attacks, just a number of things that I think just made the whole environment all that more of concern and worry. And so, and many things that when I was overseas, just making sure that my children were going to be safe when we lived in Saudi Arabia, when there were terrorist attacks in the region, and many things that I can't talk to you about. Right, sure, sure. Was very intense. Yeah. What is the, you know, I think when people think of a CIA agent, they think of a spy in a movie or a film, it's romanticized in that way. What does a day in

the life of a CIA agent actually look like? Yeah. And one of the things I think is important is terminology because a lot of people refer to CIA spies as being the CIA employees. But in our lexicon, at least, CIA officers who engage in conducting espionage are called case officers they're operations officers they're the ones who are trained in the tradecraft of espionage and go out and try to recruit foreign nationals to spy against their countries really yes and it's those foreign nationals who are referred to as the spies or the assets or the CIA agents, which is a bit confusing because FBI agents are actual FBI employees. They're the Americans who are in the FBI who carry out their law enforcement responsibilities. So there is a difference in view, a difference in lexicon.

But again, CIA officers, and I started off in the CIA very briefly as a case officer to go overseas. So you were working with other people from another country to try to get information to use for our country. Right. That's what CIA case officers do. They don't necessarily work with officers of other countries. In fact, frequently when they go overseas, and most times they go overseas, it's not known that they are CIA officers. They have other personas.

They have maybe other official cover, such as an employee of another government agency or department. They may work at embassies, but they are not known to be CIA officers because they have to operate surreptitiously in order to meet with foreign nationals who are going to commit basically treason against their countries. Crazy. How do you convince someone of a country who has pride of a country, maybe they don't anymore, how do you convince them to essentially work for you against that country?

Well, it's interesting because I think foreign nationals who decide to work for CIA do so for a variety of reasons and motivations. Some live within countries that human rights and political openness and freedom of speech are very much suppressed and they believe very strongly in what the United States of America stands for. And so they want to try to help the United States because they feel that the United States is a force of good in the world. Some

individuals are motivated by money or by the potential for resettlement in the United States. If they work for the CIA over the course of time and they provide us useful information, they want their children to go to American universities, they want to get the visas, the immigrant visas, to come and settle in the United States. And also there are some people who just, you know, enjoy the whole romance of it all

because they are involved in this, again, clandestine activity working with the CIA. So I think most of them have a component of that first category, which is that there is something that they admire, respect, like about the United States, and want to try to support U u.s interests uh global interests how many what would you call them spies then for the other countries essentially yeah the person the people the foreign nationals who are recruited by cia are spy yeah assets how many people did you recruit or is that something you're allowed to talk about no well i didn't as i said i started out just very briefly in cia as a case officer but then i realized that i

didn't have i think the the skills the interests to do that because it really is a very very challenging profession because they have to adopt these false personas basically and try to cultivate relationships with foreign nationals and try to develop a rapport that's going to allow them to then recruit these individuals to work on behalf of the U.S. government. And I find it difficult to misrepresent who I am. And so I moved over into the analytic ranks of CIA. Now, I also did serve as the chief of station overseas in the Middle East in the 1990s. And I oversaw those espionage activities. Wow.

So I just, my admiration is very, very strong for the women and men of CIA who over the years have gone to great lengths and taken great risks and have demonstrated great courage to recruit these foreign spies who really give the United States the type of insight that we need to understand the nature of the threats against us. How did you know that the information was accurate? As someone overseeing these agents who were finding assets in other countries, how could you trust that the information was true? Well, a lot of people who want to give information to the United States, their information ranges from the most accurate and reliable to the most specious and bogus. And it's up to CIA officers to try to determine whether or not someone is being truthful. And

there are different ways to do that. There are ways to validate or verify information. There are techniques and tools that you use to try to find out if someone's being honest, including the polygraph. So CIA will frequently administer polygraph exams to foreign nationals who are spying for us. Those polygraph exams are not necessarily dispositive of the truth, but they frequently will rivet one's attention on telling the truth.

So, and also there's a track record over time. Again, you're able to verify somebody's access, verify that the information or documents that they may be providing are in fact true. You also have to make sure that they're not a, what's called a dangle, which is a foreign intelligence service, pushes someone forward to a presumed CIA officer

and to see whether or not they're going to be recruited as a way to expose CIA intelligence activity. So it really is a challenging, challenging profession and undertaking for the CIA to make sure that their human assets are going and be undercover and act like you're someone you're not. How does someone like that? And I don't know if you know this or not, but how does someone go out, let's say nine to nine, and then come home at night and be in integrity, be honest, be their word with their friends and family and not continue to wear the mask that they're living most of the day. That's a really good point.

And I do think that there's a certain amount of professional schizophrenia that has to exist because, yes, you have this undercover CIA responsibility and identity, but you have to live maybe a different type of cover, another government agency cover or commercial cover. You have to live maybe a different type of cover, another government agency cover or commercial cover. But you also have to be very, very careful in terms of who knows your actual organizational affiliation. When I was director of CIA, we would have every year what's called a family day. And CIA officers, women and men, would bring in their families and show them around CIA headquarters and bring them up to the director suite where my wife and I would greet them. CIA headquarters and bring them up to the director suite where my wife and I would greet them. And there was a couple of dozen, I think, occasions over the course of four years of family days where CIA employees were bringing their children into CIA headquarters for the first time. And it was the day when the children learned that their parents actually was a CIA employee.

No way. As opposed to being an employee of another organization or just a private company or something. And the look on these kids' faces when they came in and just where, you know, they were gobsmacked that, oh my goodness, it's so cool. My mom is a CIA officer or my dad is. And because you don't want to burden your family members especially children with this knowledge that if exposed really could compromise a cia officer's ability to carry out

their activities and so it's you know when cia officers conduct these activities overseas they are basically violating the laws of foreign countries because you know carrying out espionage activities just like here in the united states if a if a russian or chinese intelligence officer was doing it they're breaking the law and the same thing that ci officers do overseas so again it's a very risky profession but also a critically important profession wow how many uh assets do you think there are in in America that are doing work for other countries? More than a few. Wow.

you know, values, you know, and freedoms and liberties, allows a lot of foreign governments and intelligence and security services to use the openness of American society, whether they send individuals here under government cover, or as businessmen, or as students or academics. And so you can imagine the FBI, in particular, has its hands full to try to understand practice. Yeah, because, you know, the theft of intellectual property, of technology, now we're in this COVID environment of pharmaceutical information or related to vaccines or whatever else. Intelligence security services from around the world are very active in the United States.

And thankfully, we have a world-class FBI organization that does a good job of trying to keep track of them. But in addition, they have to keep track of, you know, would-be terrorists. And so it's a full plate of responsibilities. How do you have inner peace when you're in this position, you know, when you're running this organization within the government? and how do people that are living these secret lives in the organization not stress out all the time, not break down, not be emotional wrecks, not have anxiety attacks? How do you guys cope? Is there strategies? Is there meditation? Is there, you know, you're fighting for something greater? What is the way to manage your inner interpersonal well-being?

Well, the CIA has always tried to take care of its employees, particularly those that have these very stressful positions and responsibilities. And it is stressful. You know, a CIA officer is handling a foreign national who is an asset of CIA, who is really putting their lives on the line. Because if these foreign nationals are found out by their governments, they can spend their life in jail or be executed. And there have been many CIA assets over the years who have been killed because of their CIA relationship.

That's why it's so important for a CIA officer who is meeting with a foreign asset or national to do everything, everything possible to prevent any exposure of that individual. So when CIA officers operate overseas, you know, they, what's it called, they go black. They will spend hours upon hours upon hours ensuring that there is no tail that they have picked up from the local intelligence and security services.

So that when they have that very, very quick meeting with an asset in a park or wherever, that they have not been trailed. also conducts him or herself in a manner that is not alerting to the local authorities and goes through the same process of trying to ensure that they're not being tracked as they meet with their CIA case officer. How do you, if it's just practical for the human being that's not a CIA operative, how does someone know when they're not being trailed or tailed? How do you get someone off your back? Well, there are certain techniques. I'm not going to reveal CIA's tradecraft, but CIA officers go through extensive, extensive training. And they go to great lengths. And there are ways and techniques that you can at least have strong confidence that you

are free of any observation you know sometimes it it takes some very innovative and creative means including the the use of disguises or whatever so I think over the course of CIS you know 73 years or so of existence we have developed a number of techniques and learned lessons that were very important to this. Is there anything that you could share that's more basic stuff that is common practice or well-known? Well, disguises, I think, are fairly well-known in terms of a way to mask one's identity. It's become much more challenging, though, as a result of all the technological advancements, particularly over the last

two decades, especially with the evolution and explosion in the digital domain. Because the environment now overseas is such that the traditional ways to get across borders or to operate clandestinely in foreign countries no longer apply. In the past, you know, intelligence services could fabricate passports as well as visas and then go into countries and with a fistful of 50s, as people say, operate. It's still a great risk, but they didn't have to worry about closed circuit televisions or the digital domain, you know, because every time you use a credit card or an atm machine or with an iphone you know you you are alerting you're pinging somewhere yeah right and so the challenge for ci officers is to operate in this very busy digital environment and so let's say that that they operate possible right now well yeah because if we could tell ci officers well don't take your your iphone your mobile phone out of the embassy when you were but if

everybody else in the embassy who's not a ci officer takes it out the absence of that that digital pinging is alerting in and of itself so again we've had to find very creative ways to operate within this very dense digital dust environment so that again, they can operate clandestinely securely. And learning more about that digital domain and the use of it, both by our foreign intelligence services and adversaries is critically important for the CIA to be able to operate today around the world. What would you say is the moment that you're most proud of from your work there at the CIA and involved in this process

where there was a massive tragedy or stressful event and you and your team really stepped up and prevented something extremely catastrophic from happening. Well, the CIA is frequently criticized for some of the tactics that it employed in the aftermath of 9-11. And people have the misunderstanding that the CIA is not a rogue organization. It doesn't decide to do things just on its own whim. That detention and interrogation program that included things like waterboarding were directed by the President of the United States, George W. Bush.

They were determined to be lawful by the highest legal body in the executive branch, which is the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice. So when the CIA receives a duly authorized order and it's determined to be lawful, they carry out those programs. Now, I find that those programs were unfortunately reprehensible from the standpoint of ethical, principled, moral intelligence work but again I they were lawful at the time so let's set aside that in terms of the controversy of it but the CIA in the aftermath of 9-11 worked day and night around the globe including with a lot of intelligence services around the world to uncover the al-qaeda operatives who were poised to carry out the second and third wave of attacks. And there was a very well-developed plan by al-Qaeda

to carry out a series of aircraft attacks against the west coast of the United States. They were going to be launched out of Southeast Asia. The funding, the resources were acquired, out of Southeast Asia. The funding, the resources were acquired, the operatives were identified, the flights and other things. And it was only because of the tremendous work that CIA did, along with other US departments and agencies, but principally it was the CIA that stopped those follow-on attacks that could have been quite horrific. So the CIA was the one that deployed to Afghanistan first in the aftermath of 9-11. It was CIA know, the CIA was the one that deployed to Afghanistan first in the aftermath of 9-11. It was CIA boots on the ground before U.S. military boots. CIA officer was killed first in Afghanistan before any U.S. military was killed there after 9-11. So there are a lot of

things that, you know, unfortunately, for maybe you listeners, that I can't go into detail about, but the lengths to which the CIA went and I think the very courageous acts that they engaged in. Again, some of them I think were very unfortunate that were conducted, but there's a strong track record of success there. Is it public knowledge about where al-Qaeda was going to strike on the West Coast? Or were they going for San Francisco and Los Angeles? Was there specific buildings they were trying to target?

I'm not sure what has been made public or not. I know that there was public acknowledgement of this, and some of it is is detailed in previous books um but they they did have targets picked out um and again flight paths uh that were identified for them uh and so it was again because of the the work to disrupt that but there were other types of things as well and attacks that were planned during the Obama administration where they were had brought bombs onto aircraft that they were intended to explode over the United States the infamous December Christmas Day 2009 when someone by the name of Abdelmutallab who was a Nigerian national was aboard a flight that was landing in Detroit, and his pants went on fire. And I got a phone call at home, and I detail this

in the memoir, that they didn't know what was happening. Why was this person's pants on fire as they were descending onto Detroit airport? Well, he tried to detonate an improvised explosive device that had been hidden in his underwear. And there was a bit of a miscue there. And so it didn't detonate. It just flamed. And they were planning, this is Al Qaeda, planning to bring that aircraft down over Detroit with, you know, could have been catastrophic results.

And there were other attempts to do the same thing towards Chicago and other efforts. So, you know, these are very serious threats. And thankfully, none of them came to fruition the way the 9-11 attacks unfortunately did. But it's because, again, of the, I think, very, very courageous work that was done by CIA and others. You worked very closely with Obama, correct? Yeah, for the entire eight years of the Obama administration. For the first four-plus years,

I served as his Homeland Security and Counterterrorism Advisor, and my office was in the West Wing, almost directly below the Oval Office, so I was up and down the stairs seeing him multiple times a day. And then in the second term, I was Director of CIA. So, yeah, he's just a very, very impressive individual. And I have great admiration for him. Again, none of us, you know, are perfect or mistake-free.

And, you know, I think he would look back on his eight years and probably, you know, wishes that he would have done some things differently. He talks about that in his book. But I felt very privileged to work for him, as well as for, I worked for six presidents, three Democrats and three Republicans. And although I had disagreements with them as far as policy choices, I had tremendous respect for all of them, because I thought that each one of them really tried to do what they could to protect this country and advance our national security interests. And I guess that's why I've been so maybe outspoken about Donald Trump,

because I think he has been such an aberration and such an abnormal incumbent in the Oval Office that he put his interests above the country's interests. Which president do you feel that you worked with managed the national crises the best or were the most inspiring in your minds on how they showed up and responded based on the level of stress and crisis that would come? Well, I got to know four of them fairly well um the george h.w bush bush 41 i got to know him best in fact when i was you know after he had left government

but he was a former director of cia before he became president of states he was cia director for a year and he always always just treasured that experience and wow and so i would go down to houston my wife and i we'd have dinner a lunch with uh president bush as well along with barbara bush just a very very enjoyable he's somebody who given that he was eight years as vice president and director of cia and served in congress and you know ambassador to china he he had a tremendous breadth of experience and so dealing with for example the the Gulf War in 1990-91, he had a very, very measured as well as experienced approach to dealing with that. I had the privilege of being President Bill Clinton's daily intelligence briefer for a year.

So I would go down and sit with him in the Oval Office and go through what's called the President's Daily Brief. And he's somebody who really had a very impressive intellect. He could absorb just massive amounts of information, process it, and had tremendous powers of recall. He could recall things that I had briefed him months previously, and I had long since forgotten them. So very impressive. George W. Bush, I thought he had a lot of integrity, and I think he was

misserved by some people around him, up to and including his vice president in terms of the decision to go to war with Iraq. But in the aftermath of 9-11, the way he, I think, rallied this country, and the way he spoke out so forcefully and to ensure that people didn't see this as an attack by Islam on the United States and made a very strong point about, you know, this is not to be blamed on Muslims or Islam. This is just a, you know, group of depraved terrorists. So, you know, I do think he handled that situation very well i think he made some policy mistakes afterward but barack obama i think he very much deserves the moniker no drama obama because he always always was able to receive even the most um unnerving information in a a very measured uh and calm manner. And so I just, you know, he had also a almost a unique ability to see relationships far beyond just the information that, you know, was being presented. He seemed to always be playing

like six dimensional chess because he always was looking for, well, if I move my chess piece on this board, how does it affect my positioning on the other board? And he always would ask additional questions to understand the implications of a policy decision he might make. So, you know, the presidents that I got to know, they were different, all of them, but they all, again, were impressive and took their national security responsibilities very seriously and also tremendously valued intelligence that doesn't mean that they you know put um you know confidence in everything that we said they would challenge uh the intelligence briefings and me uh but they very much appreciated the give and take as well as they appreciated the work and the sacrifices that were made by

intelligence officers wow so you'd say you became the closest with Obama because you were seeing him pretty much all the time? On a regular basis, yeah. Late at night, early in the morning, if I had to go up to the private residence or call him and wake him up. So you get to know people. Wow. What can you share about the bin Laden scenario, about the strategy behind that, about the information that you would give to Obama, about the planning of it? What can you share about that?

Yeah. And I tried to go into some detail in the book because it was a very historic event, I think, for the United States. I think the CIA in the aftermath of 9-11 really felt a degree, I would say, of responsibility for the 9-11 attacks, but really were crushed that they weren't able to prevent that strike on 9-11. And so therefore, we're working diligently over the course of many years. And the intelligence business is really one where you really try to find all the different puzzle pieces. And you know you're never going to get all the pieces. And you try to understand what those puzzle pieces reveal in terms of the picture. And so in the first Obama term, when Leon Panetta, who was the director of CIA at the time, came into the Oval Office and told us that the CIA believes that they had identified the residence of where a carrier of Obama was staying.

Which we were told and we knew that if we were able to identify the carriers that were interacting with obama they might be able to lead us then to uh the couriers to bin laden yeah uh so it was not barack obama no no right it was bin laden yeah so it was it was exciting but we also knew that there were some real challenges there and when they we were told that this compound was in a place called Abbottabad, which also was the location where basically the equivalent, the Pakistani equivalent of West Point was. That's where they would train the military officers. So it made us wonder whether or not the Pakistanis were hiding bin Laden and giving him protection there. bin Laden and giving him protection there. And so it then provoked or sparked a month-long effort to try to get as much insight as possible into who was at that compound. And we were able then to observe a tall individual who would walk on the compound and just in an exercise fashion. And we called him the pacer.

And we didn't know whether that pacer was bin Laden or not. But Barack Obama wanted us to come up with options in terms of if it was bin Laden, what would we do? And so there were no- And you were able to track this through satellite or through, how were you seeing this? All of the above, let me put it that way. Anything you could find, yeah. Yeah, we were wanting to tap into our human source networks.

We wanted to use different types of technical collection systems, whether they be ways to observe that area or ways to pick up signals intelligence. or ways to pick up signals intelligence. So it was, again, this is the work of intelligence officers to piece together everything possible to, again, try to understand what that puzzle picture actually looks like. And so the options that were considered were to hit that compound with missiles. That was dismissed for a variety of reasons. One is that it would cause a lot of civilian casualties in the area. But also we wouldn't have had confirmation that it would cause a lot of civilian casualties in the area. But also,

we wouldn't have had confirmation that it was bin Laden who was there. And so eventually, we decided on the assault by the helicopters and the US Special Forces, the US SEALs, Navy SEALs, to go in. And it was a very, very intense, nerve-wracking operation with great, great secrecy associated with it. And it was a real testament to not just the dedication and work of the intelligence professionals, but the talent, skills, and courage of our special forces. So now, are you orchestrating this whole thing, essentially? You're planning it with Barack day in and day out for a month or two. You're in the weeds of it.

Well, there were a lot of people. I was the president's counterterrorism advisor, but I worked very closely with Tom Donilon, who was the national security advisor in the White House, and with President Obama and Vice President Biden, and then Leon Panetta at the CIA, and then Bill McRaven, who was Admiral, who basically led or oversaw that assault. So it was a basically a trifecta of Department of Defense, the CIA and the White House. And it was designed to try to ensure the utmost secrecy because we knew that bin Laden was not going to stay at that compound forever. Because al Qaeda leaders would go to certain locations and then leave after time because they were afraid that their you know location was going to be exposed and so we were working against time we also though knew that one of the things that bill mcraven told us that when we're going we decided on the helicopter assault that we had to do it according to the lunar cycle. Because every 28 days, you want to make sure that there is going to be

the least amount of moonlight that the helicopters can travel into Pakistan and the assault can take place. So you have about a three or maybe four-day window every 28 days. And so we were trying to time the assault so that it would coincide with the least amount of moonlight and also the weather. That's fascinating. And also conditions on the ground. So yeah, it was orchestration. Fascinating. So it had to be one day, essentially, with the least amount of light. Right. Every 28 days, you try to optimize that. And so we decided that it was going to take place on that May 1st day.

Wow. So how many, when you said this is happening, we are doing this and we're going to be doing this in this fashion, how many months or how many days did it take from, okay, this is happening. This is the way it's going to happen. This is who's going in. How long did that take until it actually happened well it was in early september that um leon panetta came into the white house and told us about this um compound that might be in fact the location wow and it wasn't until may 1st that the

assault took place so it was you know through the fall and. And then it was about in the February-March timeframe when the options were narrowed down and the decisions were made as far as how to go forward with it. So there had to be the training that was done, the mock-up of the facilities so that they could prepare for every eventuality. They had to identify the teams. So it took, you know, a number of months, but those last 60 days in particular, March and April were the time when we really then were focused, you know, like a laser on doing it at the nearest opportunity, but recognizing that we were not going to have you know full confidence that it was bin laden who was there gosh that's crazy most nerve-wracking

time for me was after the assault took place and we were confident that we got bin laden and they were bringing his body back to afghanistan by the helicopters it took 90 minutes for those helicopters to go back into afghanistan and by by that time, the Pakistani air defense forces were on alert. The Pakistanis had sent up some aircraft because they knew something was going down in Abbottabad. And the local law enforcement was out there. So I was very concerned that even if we got bin Laden, if one of those helicopters was shot down and we lost a dozen or two dozen of our Navy Seals it would have been disastrous and so I those that 90 minutes was the longest you know in in my experience uh working that issue and you I mean you're in the White House at this time it's late at night or what what time is this yeah well you know we

started out very early in the morning. I think we got to the White House around 6 o'clock that day. And the operation started to go down basically at 2 o'clock Washington time. It was nighttime over in Pakistan, 2, 3.30. So between that time, they actually got on the compound and started the assault. And it wasn't until 7 o'clock at night or 8 o'clock at night that we really had confidence that everybody was back, that it was bin Laden.

And then the rest of the evening, we spent doing the things that we needed to do. So President Obama called President Bush as well as President Clinton. I talked to my Saudi counterpart because one of my roles was to tell the Saudis that we got bin Laden. And although bin Laden was a Saudi by birth, the Saudis had pulled his citizenship. But my job was to offer to the Saudis the body of bin Laden. And we thought that they were not going to take it um and they they they declined the opportunity uh because they didn't want to you know have to deal with you

know the remains and you know what did they do with them and martyr so his remains were disposed according to islamic rights um appropriately but we all had some after-action responsibilities calling counterparts, talking to Congress and other things. And then President Obama, I think it was a little before, a little after midnight, gave his address to not just the nation, but to the world. So right now in my office, I'm looking up at a photo that was given to me. It's a large photo. And it's President Obama, myself, Tom Donilon, who was the National Security Advisor, Dennis McDonough, who was the Deputy National Security Advisor at the time.

And President Obama is in his suit, and we just went over his remarks that he was going to deliver to the nation. And the looks on our faces are much more relaxed and relieved than they were just hours before. And it really was, I think, the culmination of a years-long effort by many, many individuals who were working tirelessly to just bring justice in the aftermath of that 9-11 attack. So this is essentially 10 years after the fact of 9-11. Yes, yeah. And this is something that you guys have been trying to find him for a decade and figure out how to resolve this, essentially.

What was that feeling like? Were you guys able to celebrate? Did you guys have like a sip of champagne? Did you have some tea together? What is that like when you have 10 years of tension built up for a moment of completion? Yeah. Well, there's the iconic photo of many of us. We're sitting in not the situation room of the White House, it's in a little ante room. We were gathered around a table, we were looking up at a screen,

and Secretary Clinton has her hand over her mouth. Obama's standing up and everyone's sitting down. Well, Obama's sitting in a chair and he has this intense look. And we're all, because that's just when the operation was going down. But when we got the word, Geronimo, that bin Laden was down, was taken, there was no celebration, no jubilation, no clapping or applause.

It was a very somber, sullen, even almost a sacred moment, if I can use that term. Wow. Because I think we recognized that we happen to be the stewards of this responsibility of ensuring that there was going to be justice in the aftermath of 9-11. And so there was no excitement. There was a sense of accomplishment, but it was a quiet sense. It was, you know, we looked at each other, you know, and people and president was saying, well done. And so we were not congratulating each other so much as just saying, boy, this was so, so important

and it was done so well. And the teamwork was just so strong that, again, it was, we just felt that we happened to be in the government at the White House with these roles at the time when all this came together, all these puzzle pieces. And as I talk about in the book, that it was about 1230 or so in the morning when I was going to be leaving. I was going outside to get into the car. But the outside of the West Wing of the White House was lighter than usual, brighter. And I could hear noise and as i'm

emerging from the doors of the west wing i could hear from the lafayette park the square right next to the white house there on the scene of most recent you know demonstrations whatever this this glow because the the lights were on uh and there wasants and people with horns and there was chants of USA, USA, CIA, CIA. I know. And I do all the time because it was the first time that day where my emotions got the better of me because you're running on adrenaline and you're trying to make sure you do everything that's necessary in order to have mission success and ensure that the president is getting everything that he needs. And then so coming out and hearing that and hearing Americans in the wee hours of the morning, just showing their appreciation and respect for what was done, it sends chills up my spine.

Gosh, I'm getting emotional. I'm getting like, yes, like goosebumps. This is, ah, man, that's amazing. Where were you 9-11? Do you remember? Obviously. I do. I was the deputy executive director of CIA, which is basically the deputy chief operating officer of the agency, a senior official at CIA. And we were in the morning meeting that the executive staff would hold. at CIA and we were in the morning meeting that the executive staff would hold and right at the end of the meeting the head of our operations center came in and said a plane just hit the world trade

center there were no more details than that as far as the size of the plane or what serious what but we all were looking at each other and we we knew that al-qaeda was trying to carry out some attack including in the homeland but we didn't unfortunately, the details of when it was going to happen or the target. And so we ended the meeting and we all went back to our office. And my office was right across the hall from this conference room where the meeting was being held. And so I was looking then at the television that was in the suite of offices there. And I saw the second plane hit the other tower and i saw the smoke coming out of the tower where the first plane hit and everybody knew immediately this was al-qaeda we're under attack wow and it was you know all hands on deck and so the rest of the day we were

busy evacuating the building because we had intelligence that CIA headquarters was on the target list. I remember going through that building and knocking on doors and making sure that we were able to get people out of the building. Our folks who were working on counterterrorism stayed there, irrespective of the risk and the threat, because there was just a tremendous, tremendous requirement to learn everything about who was on those planes, what else might be planned. And there was gridlock along the streets and roads in the nearby area. And so it just took hours upon hours to get all the non-essential CIA officers off of

the compound. get all the non-essential CIA officers off of the compound. But I knew then that the next years, certainly the immediate near term, was going to be just such a demand on CIA to be able to respond to al-Qaeda. You say all hands on deck. This is pre-iPhone. This is pre-social media. I remember 2011, I'm a freshman in college playing football. And it's early in the morning. And I remember seeing it. I don't even know what the World Trade Center was. I'm a guy from Ohio. I had no clue what World Trade Center was. But then it became very, obviously, very quickly learned what was going down. but then it became very, obviously very quickly learned what was going down. How do you gather enough information when it, everyone,

it seems to be in chaos, the country, the world it's, there's no intelligence through phones. Like there is now, like what do people do if you're just like calling on a landline? Well, the CIA had a communication systems that we were able to, you know, talk securely to our people overseas, to our foreign counterparts and others. And the CIA has a presence in many, many, many countries around the globe. And so immediately, as I said, are, we rely so heavily on our foreign counterparts because they're the ones with the eyes and ears in the countries of concern and of interest.

And so we had to work very, very carefully and closely with them and intensively to ensure that they gave us whatever information they had that could have helped piece together that puzzle to find out who was responsible who else might be out there because we were very concerned about those follow-on attacks and we didn't know if they were going to take place the next day the next week a month or whatever so for quite a while we were on you know razor's edge and racing against time to

do what we could and that's why c CIA was asked to send people immediately out to Afghanistan and to work with the Afghan locals and the tribes and to see whether or not we could find out where Al-Qaeda was and the leadership was. And that led then to the U.S. military arriving and, you know, the push against the areas where they were, you know, holed up in and Tora Bora. And that's when Al-Qaeda scattered. And so it became then a years long effort to try to, again, find, disrupt, dismantle the Al-Qaeda entire organization. How do you personally deal with self-doubt when maybe you don't have all the information or all the data and that's your responsibility? And you're saying, here's what we need to do. Here's what we think something is.

Let's take these actions. How do you overcome doubt and insecurity around information that may be accurate or maybe not? Yeah, it's... To be an effective leader, really, within your organization or with the president or whatever. It's a big challenge. And the thing is that the CIA has very intensive training programs

and tries to ensure that you understand exactly what types of information are important, how to evaluate them, how to determine how to collect more information. But then when you're in these positions of responsibility, and I think one of the important lessons that I learned is to know when you need to make a decision and when there's not time to wait for more. But also, one of the critical skills, I think, of intelligence officers and policymakers is to try to ensure that you understand the gaps in your knowledge and i would always tell intelligence officers who are going to go you know brief down at the white house whatever is to make sure that the people that they're briefing understand that

what you're sharing is not the totality right it's 20 it's 10 yeah yeah we might only have 10 puzzle pieces and there might be you know be 100 yet to be found. And so understanding the context and making sure that you appreciate the gaps in your knowledge and the confidence that you have in it. You're an intelligence officer, director of CIA. You know that you have to make a decision based on the knowledge that you have, the advice that you get, recommendations that you are given, and try to do the best job possible with what is available to you. And looking back over my career, there were decisions I made based on the data I had, based on the sense that I had of what was the right decision. There were mistakes that were made, those I'm going to have to live with for the rest of my life. And I would always go back and try to say, you know, why did it not go the way we thought? And again, learn lessons from them. But again, when you're in these positions, if you wait for totality of

knowledge, I see it as the sin of omission. You can make sins of commission, but sins of omission can be as devastating. Yeah. And how do you personally deal with decisions made that you tried to give your best based on the information and what was available, but ended up in hurting people or causing tragedies in some way? How do you personally deal with that to make sure that you have confidence moving forward in decision-making?

Sometimes it shakes your confidence, certainly. It makes you wonder whether or not, not just whether the decisions that you made were wrong but just you know how are you going to be able to make future decisions yeah but again if you're going to be in these positions uh of tremendous responsibility you cannot neglect those responsibilities by avoiding decisions you have to know when it's know when you shouldn't make a certain decision or you don't have to make a decision. But the best intelligence officers,

the best government officers, the best public servants I've seen take to heart mistakes that they make and really try to ensure that they do their absolute best never ever to have to make a decision that might entail a you know another mistake yeah and fortunately I think the the overwhelming number of decisions that are made are are the right ones sometimes that you there are big strategic decisions. Do we invade Iraq?

Well, that obviously begets so many more decisions and actions or whatever else. So there are tactical decisions that are made that have implications, but in a defined time or space, but then the broader geostrategic decisions that are made that have reverberations well beyond that day or that area. Was there anything that you were against that ended up being a big mistake in the last 30,

40 years that you were saying, I don't really think we should be doing this as a nation, whether it was a president's decision or whoever's decision? Was there anything you were like, you know what, we could have done without that? When I was in CIA for close to 30 years, I saw some things that I very much disagreed with. And when I was director, I tried to correct some of those things that I thought were wrong. The CIA was involved in some things like toppling governments and you know in our in our history you know certainly during the Cold War when you know there was this you know rivalry and competition and almost existential you know tension

between the United States and the Soviet Union and so there was a race to try to you know gain favor in different parts of the of the world what I talked about also in the book is that I am very much an opponent of any type of dissemination of disinformation. I think it's the propaganda, the putting out falsehoods. And intelligence services, including U.S. intelligence services, have done that over the years in order to advance their interests. But first of all, I think it's incompatible with the values of our country.

I think it can be very, very damaging if it's uncovered. But also I think that the United States should really be seen as a beacon of truth as opposed to false smears just to advance some particular program or project. just to advance some particular program or project. Also, I do believe strongly that the covert action programs, these are programs that can be authorized by a president of the United States, should never be done just to conceal embarrassing information. I think that the hand of the United States sometimes has to be hidden overseas, but also I think we need to take more responsibility for the types of things that we do

as a way to demonstrate how a country operates in the international environment in a responsible, judicious manner. And so there have been some things that, again, the CIA has been involved in over the years, whether it be disinformation or, again, toppling regimes. These are things that I think never should take place. What's your definition of integrity? Integrity is a combination of things for me. Honesty is at the root of that. But also, when I used to, I would administer the oath of office to incoming CIA officers every month in the CIA lobby. And I would underscore the importance

of integrity, which brought employees into the agency. We were willing to trust them with the nation's secrets and be part of the CIA family. But integrity is the distinction between right and wrong. I don't say good and evil. It's really right and wrong. It's what is that North Star? What are those moral lessons, ethical lessons? What are those principles and values that really do define, I think, what it means to be a good person, a kind person, an honest person, a person who is not going to try to take advantage of others in order to advance their own personal interests. Integrity is sort of a package of how a person defines themselves as well as how they treat others. um humility uh um recognition that um we are um on this planet i think to um

try to ensure the betterment of mankind i just there is a a sense that for me integrity um makes one um aware of their uh responsibilities on this earth and, again, carries out their activities, their responsibilities in the most honest, forthright manner. How do you live with integrity knowing that you're being so deceitful in the business that you're in? you're being so deceitful in the business that you're in. It's to essentially not be an integrity in certain practices, but how do you personally keep your integrity as an individual and make sure you stay on that North Star path? Yeah, because the end does not justify all the means by any stretch of the imagination. And I think that's one of the reasons why I decided to get out of the operations profession because I could not see myself doing that and deceiving individuals.

Now, I think there are some things where the pursuit of just ends and good outcomes can allow for certain types of behaviors and activities that facilitate the accomplishment of those admirable and good goals. But you asked the question earlier, how do CIA officers really maintain their integrity and their personal lives and adopt these other sort of personas and tactics? And sometimes I found that it was hard for individuals. And I found that some people were not living by that division of maintaining that integrity in everything that they do, except for maybe those aspects of their operational responsibilities,

where at least that initial meeting or initial meetings with somebody, and they present themselves as a Department of State officer or Department of Defense officer, is that something that really is unethical? Well, maybe it's not completely truthful, but as long as then the relationship with the individual adheres to certain types of traits or attributes, I think that getting your foot in the door by maybe not being fully transparent is, I guess, you know, maybe I'm rationalizing it.

Sure. I don't consider it necessarily unprincipled. I get it. It's finding justice through these actions. I understand that. I'm curious how much, I mean, a lot of this comes to me of understanding identity because as

a former, let's say for myself as a former football player, and I see this today where sometimes guys do wrongful things outside of the court or the field or whatever it may be on the football field, and then they'll do bad things, right? They'll hit their wives or they'll do certain aggressive actions that reflect being on the football field. And I remember as a football player, we were trained to have this identity, to inflict pain, to hit with anger, you know, to do these certain actions and live in this persona and this identity. And then you take the pads off and you're supposed to be this loving, vulnerable human being. How does the CIA deal with identity and psychology training in terms of making, because you've

got to play the part all in and then play a different part. That's got to be challenging, right? Psychologically, emotionally for some people. Yeah, I think that's a big, big question for most everybody in the world. And you're right. I played a lot of sports as well. And so much depends on leadership and the role modeling that parents provide, teachers provide, coaches provide. I can remember, you know, played high school basketball and there was a team that we played and they were, you know, they were higher ranked than we were.

And their players, you know, would take every opportunity if the ref wasn't looking, you know, grab the shirt, give the elbow, whatever, and just, you know, resort to any tactic in order to win. And just watching them and watching the coach with them it was almost encouraging it and so some people have this you know approach of you know win it at all costs and this inculcates in individuals then this this attitude and an approach to life that goes beyond you know the football field or the basketball court uh It's how they work in business or in whatever profession they are or cheat in school. And so I think we have to get back to having maybe a stronger educational system and to have, and it starts at a very early age,

to, again, try to distinguish between right and wrong. Now, sometimes the adrenaline gets going and, you know, now when I, you know, you see a team score a touchdown, my goodness, it's a, you know, a rally in the end zone, you know, years ago they would catch, you know, throw the ball down or whatever and go and just, you know, but, and so the culture I think has changed a lot but i do think having some real open and honest discussions about what is appropriate what isn't is not but that role modeling walking the talk one of the things i realized was that cia as director

everybody was watching what i did listening to what i. And I had to always be very aware that I wasn't sending any, you know, unintentional signals or, you know, what I, the way I said something was received in a way that it wasn't intended because what person does at the top, what a coach says or what a coach does, really does have resonance then with the members of the team. So I do think it's for CIA officers, for intelligence officers, making sure they understand exactly what their obligations are on the professional front, on the personal front. What does it mean to have professional and personal integrity?

What are the boundaries within which one has to work and one of the challenges for cia officers i think is just because something is is lawful does not mean that it's ethical or principled such as the example of the detention interrogation program and so what i tried to do when i was at cia is to first of all ensure some everything we do is lawful but then is it consistent with the values that i think that need to, you know, the CIA needs to embody? Is it consistent with the ethics and principles of what the United States and the premier intelligence agency should, in fact, be engaged in? And everybody's going to have their own individual North Star that has been shaped throughout the course of their life. that has been shaped throughout the course of their life. But I think that if we're, we go back to a, you know,

maybe just a better sense of, you know, there is right and wrong, but unfortunately too many people opt for the wrong, including politicians today who role model for, especially our young Americans, you know, the deceit, dishonesty, the lack of integrity, the lack of decency. It's just, unfortunately, it's being emulated far and wide, which is unfortunate. What would you say are some practical things that you're allowed to share of understanding if someone's lying or not? Are there any tips you could give that are common practice that you could see? You know what?

There's some things you could really find out about a person when they do these things or if they're telling a lie. Well, I think people will pick up on some discomfort in terms of how one moves or handles themselves. When somebody's accounting of events or a story changes, that's usually a good indication. And so you'll find that people who try to get out of culpability of something

and they'll give one version of what happened and then the next version will be either slightly different. version of what happened and then you know the next version will be you know either slightly different or it's telling the truth usually um you you know i think it's imprinted in your brain you know the the events as you remember them as opposed to uh trying to misrepresent the facts and so um there are some things that i think you know the CIA officers will try to evaluate and detect when they're dealing with a potential asset or called a developmental or a foreign national of interest. And again, the stories that people weave sometimes give them away pretty quickly. Sometimes give them away pretty quickly. I'm curious, what was the biggest challenge you had to overcome personally from your years working at the CIA?

Was it a level of learning how to be a better leader? Was it building confidence? Was it a certain skill you had to develop? What was the biggest challenge you faced when you started that you really overcame and grew into in a positive way that was no longer a challenge for you like it was previously? I think it was probably all of the above. I learned some really painful lessons. The first time I had a management role at CIA, I had no training for it whatsoever. And all of a sudden, I was an analyst in what's called a branch of eight or nine people and a lot of them were older than me and even more senior than me but i became their branch chief one

day and i made a lot of mistakes and it was very painful and i very much regret it but it was through those experiences that i was able then to develop i think some of the the better leadership and management techniques that I needed to acquire. What were some of those mistakes that you wish you... Well, I was rather officious in terms of almost dictating to people. One of my responsibilities was to review papers that people would write. And so I would rewrite them the way I would write them. Oh, man.

And I needed to understand that we all have our own, not just strengths and weaknesses, but we all have our different types of approaches and styles. And I needed to understand respect and be able to leverage, you know, the different styles and also engage more. I was a pretty strong introvert you know i think i still am except when i'm speaking out about you know some politicians um and and so i i needed to uh sit down talk with people and then listen and uh i think i was a little bit too much of a of a loner uh and so over the course of of my career i i was fortunate i was able to work for some very good people who taught me some lessons. In fact, when I was deputy executive director, the executive director, his name was Buzzy Krohngard.

He was from the banking industry. He came into CIA. He was a real management knack. And when he learned that I was going to be his deputy, the first thing he said to me, he goes, John, I want you to know that you can make a mistake. I said, well, that's kind of interesting guidance. He said, now there's some caveats to that. One is I want you to make sure that you don't make the same mistake twice because that shows you're not a learning person. So any mistake you make, you have to learn from it.

He goes, and secondly, if there is a decision that you have to make that is the equivalent of a shot, if it goes wrong, it's a shot below the waterline. He's a former Marine, so there's a nautical reference there. He said, you really need to raise it up the chain of command. You need to bring other people into that. He said, this agency is big and strong. It can take a lot of shots above the waterline. But if it's a shot that's going to be near the waterline or below the waterline, that's not something that you should do on your own. And he said that he evaluated good leaders and managers of those who know what actions they should take. He said, I don't want you to be afraid to make decisions,

you know, because that's what you're here for, to make the right decisions in your position. He said, so the good managers and good leaders are the ones who know the actions, decisions they should make, and then the actions and decisions they need to raise up the chain of command, or that they need to bring other people into that discussion before a decision is made. And he said, understanding that is really, I think, the key to good leadership. And so it was something that was impressed is made. And he said, understanding that is really, I think, the key to good leadership. And so it was something that was impressed upon me, and I think that the course of my subsequent career, I had the same approach, and I used those same talking points

with the people that worked for me. And I think your sports background, you understand that it's not the team with the hot shooter that wins the championships. It's the team that's able to really work well championships yeah if the team is able to really work well together that is so so critically important and so i learned how do you develop teamwork with non-superstars sometimes i think it's it's a lot easier to develop teamwork with non-superstars because then there is mutual dependence and it's one of the things that in CIA, people were asking me when I would swear them into office, what is it that is the key to success at the agency? I said,

you became director. What was it? I said, well, I just happened to become director, but it also shows that anybody can. There's obviously humility, integrity, all those things. But I said, the people I saw flame out in the agency, who I thought, you know, had all the talent that they needed, were the ones who were really that individual operator, the people that, you know, kept information from others, the people who tried to promote themselves at meetings, or the individuals who didn't recognize that one of the real objectives of the agency is to have people empower one another. What can you do to help empower the work of other CI officers? And what can others do to empower you? It's that interactive system that really is going to define the success of the organization. Because you don't want to have a bunch of, you know, insular, you know, components.

That's why when I was at the agency, I reorganized the agency to better integrate the analysts and the operators and the scientists, technologists, open source specialists, whatever else. To me, the real secret of success in dealing with future problems is better integration of capabilities and efforts so that you have an awareness of what others can do, what their capabilities are, what their tools are, what their authorities are. And with that awareness, then you can better plug and play in order to have a more sort of a symbiotic, you know, relationship between them. So, and in a team, and I played on a lot of, I don't want to say mediocre teams,

but teams that were, that gelled well, that even though we might have only had a 500 record at times, you know, it was above what we were individually capable of because we were operated as a team. And that, again, depends on leadership, you know, the tone the coach sets, you know, the signal sent, the reward systems, as well as the individuals. You can have somebody be the leader of the team or the captain of the team who are not going to be the hotshot, who are not going to be the star. They're the ones who are going to the star they're the ones who are going to motivate

they're the ones who are going to continue to set by example and to me that that's the difference between success and failure of any organization or enterprise uh so that that that team component but again mutual interdependence that that recognition that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts is really so, so important. I didn't recognize that when I was an early manager, a leader at the agency. I had to learn that over time, that I had to rely more on other individuals. That is, people who think that they're the best, the smartest, the brightest, you know, wisest, they are failing to recognize the reality of the environment. We're talking about leadership. You worked with six of the biggest leaders in the country.

Do you think that the presidents, when they're voted in and they're chosen, do you think they are already great leaders, or do you think they become great through the mistakes and adversity and the challenges that they face in their presidency? No, I don't think they're born great leaders. I think some of them have some innate traits and inclinations that allow them to develop into very good leaders. When I think about members of Congress, either in the Senate or the House, you know, they're legislators, you know, they may have a staff that they have to oversee, but they don't really lead, you know, organizations

or enterprises or whatever. I think there are certain skills that are attached to that. You know, you look at Donald Trump, he was the head CEO of a family organization, you know, that people basically snapped to. I don't think he developed any real leadership skills there. But I saw that the presidents that I got to know well while they were presidents, you know, Bill Clinton to a degree because I was his daily briefer, but then Bush and then certainly Obama, I saw them over the course of their eight-year terms, which each of them served, really mature

in terms of their understanding of the policy challenges they had to deal with. They attain greater knowledge. And with greater knowledge, I think you are able to be a wiser leader. And so I do think that all of them develop certain types of traits and characteristics, particularly maybe in their second terms. I think if George Bush's decision to invade Iraq in 2003, I don't think he would have made that decision in his second term really because i think he would have again uh developed a better sense of what the implications of that decision were going to be but uh in the aftermath of 9 11 and afghanistan or whatever else i think he just was brought along in that stream of um you know

recommendations yeah yeah yeah and a lot of recommendations. Reaction mode, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and a lot of recommendations that people who wanted to invade Iraq, irrespective of the intelligence, were determined to pursue. And with Barack Obama, I think he entered the Oval Office with very strong idealistic visions as well as goals. I think he maintained his idealism, but also it was leavened significantly by the experiences that he had, the practical realities of dealing with these very, very difficult issues, both domestically and internationally, understanding better what is possible and doable, and trying to optimize those issues and those outcomes that he felt he

could achieve, and recognizing that there are some issues here that were basically beyond the solution that he, in fact, favored. And I do think that, and the same thing when I was CI director for close to four years, I came to realize that there were some things that I felt very strongly about that needed to be done. But having a better sense of the ecosystem, if you will, that you operate within gives you a better sense of what's achievable, what's important, and what you consider to be your priorities. Yeah. This is fascinating. Where do you think we would be as a country if we didn't invade Iraq? Oh, well, I think that first of all, the Middle East would be so radically different

because it was the invasion of Iraq and then the implosion of Iraq that then allowed ISIS, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, to grow and to establish a caliphate or whatever and just ravage Iraq and Syria. And so it has had tremendous, tremendous impact on the region as a whole. I'm not saying that you know we wouldn't have had challenges and issues with sam hussein who was a ruthless bloody authoritarian leader without a doubt but the invasion of iraq set off a chain of events that just had you know tremendous implications you know throughout the the region as a as a country um I think the invasion of Iraq really did distract quite a bit

from our effort in Afghanistan, because then we had this two-front war going on. And unfortunately, we're still in Afghanistan after 18, 19 years. And I do think that we need to maintain some presence there. But I do think Iraq and Afghanistan, two very hot battlefields going on simultaneously, really did sap our ability to deal with either one of those issues effectively. But also the United States military obviously is the best military in the world, and we certainly can win wars. Prevailing over counterinsurgencies is different, but we certainly can trounce prevailing over counter insurgencies is you know different but we certainly can you know trounce any you know military that is out there but we as a government as a country we do not do a good job of following a military victory with effective

programs assistance and development i'm not talking about regime building i'm talking about it's easy to destruct it It's much harder to construct. And unfortunately, we don't have, I think, the capabilities, the approach, the experience that allows us to develop war-torn countries, certainly in the Middle East, South Asia. It was much different than repairing the damage of World War II in post-World War II Europe and Japan. Those were basically different types of societies. But in the tribe of the authoritarian countries and basically largely rural areas, without the development of political institutions and experiences,

it's much more difficult to seize a victory from a military conquest. What would you say are the three common principles, leadership qualities that all the presidents you worked with had? What were those three things they all kind of developed that were similar that made them effective in leading in the White House and also effective in making decisions and being in the position they were in? I would say professional integrity. Bill Clinton is a little bit of a different example

because of his personal problems and issues there. And people will say, well, he didn't have personal integrity. Well, it's up to people to make that subjective judgment. But I think all of them had that professional integrity. They took their responsibilities very seriously they always tried to decide on a policy course both domestically and internationally that they believed was in the best interest of the country not in the best interest of their party nor in their own personal interests so i do think that professional integrity was important.

Secondly, at least in the issues that I dealt with them, I felt that, again, on a professional plane and their presidential responsibilities, they tried to be as honest as possible. It goes along with integrity, but I do think being as honest with the American people in particular and also just trying to ensure that Americans understood what was happening. I do think to varying degrees, they all tried to do that. Third, they all recognized that the United States' strength on the global stage really depends heavily on the strength

of our alliances and partnerships and that we really need to make sure that we take care of those relationships and not take them for granted. And that's important because over the last 75 years, the United States has been the leader of the free world. And it's because of the credibility, I think, that we have had and the recognition of the part of a lot of countries around the world that they depend on that U.S. leadership role. And I do think all those presidents understood it. They had an appreciation of history and the role that the U.S. played. And then finally, I think it is that they believe strongly that the United States has to play that leadership role on the global stage. And I believe in American exceptionalism, not because we're smarter or brighter or better

looking than anybody else. We have had exceptional good fortune. Look at this large, wonderful country with bountiful natural resources, arable land, navigable rivers, country with bountiful natural resources arable land navigable rivers large sea coasts the world's melting pot we have all of those features of success no other country has that and given those exceptional good fortune we have exceptional responsibilities that's why the the mantra of america first america first has been so shrill on the ears of people around the globe and people who I still stay in touch with overseas. They say, here's the United States using its muscularity, using all of its exceptional advantages to advantage itself at the cost of others. And I do believe that Presidents Clinton and Bush and Obama, and before them, you know, President Bush 41 and Reagan and Carter and Ford and all the others.

They really did understand that the United States has this very, very important global responsibility that, of course, we have to take care of our own country and our own people. But that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world. And that the more the United States is seen as being an advocate for the growth and the prosperity of the world, I think the more in favor we will be and the better off we will be as well. So I do think that those presidents had, again, that integrity, really tried to be honest, recognize the importance of the relationships the United States has around the world, and then also recognize that the United States has this very unique and important global role, leadership role that we must play. Yeah, I think it was Spider-Man that said with great power comes

great responsibility. And we have a lot of power and I think we have a lot of responsibility to live in the world as well. I want to keep going, but I want to be respectful of your time. And I have a couple of final questions for you. This is called the three truths question. I ask all my guests at the end. So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario that it's your last day on earth many, many years from now. And you have lived the exact life you want to live and accomplished everything else you want to accomplish. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, this interview, this book, it has to go with you to the next place you go. So no one has access to your written words, your audio, your videos anymore. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper that has three things you know

to be true or your three greatest lessons that you've learned in your life that you would leave behind for the world as all they would have to kind of remember you by. I call it the three truths. What would you say are your three truths? My three truths about myself? Three truths for the world. Three lessons that you want to leave behind. Oh, boy. I should have prepared for this. We are all imperfect beings, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive for perfection recognize that there is so much about life we don't know and maybe much of it is unknowable but we should strive to understand as much as we can but we should strive to understand as much as we can about who we are,

why we're here, and what it all means. Third is to remember that we are all individual beings, part of a larger global collective, and that we each have a responsibility to do something during our short and fleeting lifetimes that benefits mankind in some way. I don't know if they're truths, but they're things that I think about. That's great. As someone who is now retired, what is the impact you want to have on the world moving forward beyond this book, which I want people to get because we barely scratched the surface on a lot of the stories

in here and the lessons and incredible eye-opening principles that you've learned through your years of working with these presidents and in the CIA. But I want people to get this book, My Fight Against America's Enemies at Home and Abroad, Undaunted. So make sure you check this out. But what is it you want to create moving forward well it's one of the reasons why i decided to write a memoir which was to provide a glimpse into what it means to work in the world of intelligence and national security and to try to encourage young americans to seriously consider some type of public service during their lifetime, whether it's intelligence or law enforcement or diplomatic corps or even local communities.

It does not have to be the federal government. But this is a great, big, wonderful country. I am the son of an immigrant. My father emigrated from Ireland when he was 28 years old in 1948 and always instilled in me and my brother and my sister just how special it was to be an American citizen. And he said, never, ever take it for granted. He said, millions upon millions of people over the years have striven at great cost and sacrifice to come to the United States the way he did. Because it is the land of opportunity.

It is the land where dreams are made. And that he said too often Americans who are born here really take for granted all of the exceptional, exceptional good fortune that we have. And he said it's important to be able to give back to this great country of ours. And he said it's important to be able to give back to this great country of ours. And so I've tried to spend time, I'm affiliated with my two alma maters, Fordham University in New York and the University of Texas at Austin. I am a distinguished fellow and I talk to a lot of students and participate in seminars and give them some of my, share my experiences about what life was like and working in the government.

of my share my experiences about what life was like and working the government because what I really wanted to do was to share the great honor that I had through the course of 33 plus years and to tell them that despite what you might you know hear about and despite what you hear in Washington in terms of the denigration and disparagement of intelligence and law enforcement and the deep state, unfortunately, we live in this hyper-partisan, very politicized, very acrimonious environment right now. But there are important things that we need to preserve about this country. And there are some real significant challenges that are on the horizon. And we need to, I think, work more harmoniously to try to address the challenges that range from terrorism to proliferation to climate change to cyber challenges, you name it. And we need to tap into this great melting pot of ours

so that the best and brightest really do contribute in some way to form a more perfect union. And so I just am trying to spend as much time as I can sharing my experiences. My national security career is in my rearview mirror. But to the extent that this book helps to, again, spark maybe an interest, I'd like to write some more, being more, I guess, analytical about some of the challenges that lie ahead, and just, again, to share my experiences as I can. You mentioned the deep state.

This is something I don't really know much about. I've just heard about it i've never seen it but this is a what is this conspiracy theory that the elite to the the richest in the world are influencing government in certain ways and making decisions is that essentially the yeah it depends on one's perspective of you know how they view the deep state but they think that there's this you know very large cabal of folks you know in intelligence and and law enforcement other things that operate clandestinely to try to shape world events and national developments and despite the best efforts of the you know the politicians and the leaders who are trying to you know

undercut the deep state i i worked in government for over 30 years. I never encountered a deep state. Again, I think it's just some people who are just trying to make a point about people in the government who are operating clandestinely, roguishly against the betterment of the United States. And it is just a flat out lie. clandestinely, roguishly against the better interest of the United States. And it is just a flat out lie. Wow. There you go. You heard it here then. If someone wanted to become the president of the United States, let's say in the next 15, 20 years, or someone's thinking about it one day, I want to become the president. What would you say are two to three things they should develop as a leader now to prepare themselves to win the presidency and then be a great leader

in their term? Try to acquire as much knowledge as possible about what's going on in the country and the world. If you don't have that knowledge, again, of current events, of of history of the law you won't understand the the nature of the challenges as well as the opportunities that are out there secondly I I have become very jaded about partisan politics because I think that party loyalties too often take precedence over integrity and what people should be doing.

I would like to think that a future president of the United States, woman or man, whatever, will emerge from a nonpartisan environment from the standpoint of one of the two traditional local parties. Interesting. Because I think we always want a president to be a president of all, not of a president of a party or a particular constituent base. And I do think that governance in the 21st century is really difficult. And I think we have to be thinking about new models for leadership and the qualities of leadership.

And I do think having less partisanship, I understand, it's a feature of the political landscape. And partisans can be very healthy. But leadership really requires one to transcend partisanship. And frequently it's difficult. But I also do think that a future president really needs to be non-ideological. And because of learning more about the world and having a much more pragmatic and practical understanding that the world is a complex complicated place that there are no simple solutions to difficult problems despite the rhetorical flourishes of a lot of politicians that you know these are tough tough issues that really require um a a better understanding of the nature of the problems but also a sense that we can find ways to maybe

compromise. And then finally, I just, the very, very unfortunate polarization that exists within this country. I really hope that we're going to have more leaders who are not going to be on either end of that political spectrum, the left or the right, I have no tolerance for the ideologues out there because they wear blinders and they view the world through a very myopic prism that they don't have an open mind for how their views might be a bit off. how their views might be a bit off. So I do hope that, and then finally, I guess,

I'd like to think that future presidents are going to have the requisite humility, understanding what the limits of their knowledge, as well as their capabilities are, and that they're going to have to rely on a lot of other people in order to be a successful and effective president. Yeah, build a great team around you, because you're not going to have all the answers, obviously. That's how sports teams do it. Exactly. John, I really acknowledge you for showing up the way you do right now after serving for so many years. I think it was 33 years in CIA you served? Yeah. 29 and a half or so in CIA and another four plus at the White House as President Obama's assistant.

I acknowledge you for showing up for as long as you did under the extreme amounts of stress and anxiety and uncertainty and unsureness of decision making at times and potential regrets and mistakes and weight that you might have had to carry for different things. I really acknowledge you for leading with a humble heart and serving at this stage of your life in a way to really help educate us and reflect back on lessons learned and how we can become better as human beings and as a country and in the world. And I acknowledge you for showing up the way you're showing up now. and acknowledge you for showing up the way you're showing up now. It's really inspiring to witness and see what's possible as someone leading at a high level in a government area. So I really acknowledge you for that.

And I'm excited for people to get this book. Tons of great stories, lessons, and things that you'll really want to learn about. If you want to gather information and become a better leader, you've got to gather information about the past. And this has a lot of that information. So make sure you check out this book. I have one final question for you. Uh-oh.

The toughest is usually some reserve for last. This should be easy, I think, for you. But before I ask it, make sure people follow you on Twitter. You're John Brennan over there. Is there anywhere else we can support you, follow you, engage with you online? No, I pop up here and there in different newscasts and other types of things. And I don't know what the next chapter of my life is going to fully involve.

But I've tried to take a step back a little bit from Twitter also. I didn't want to cede the Twittersphere to Donald Trump, and that's why I engaged in a rather strident way at times, much to my critics' dismay and anger. I'm originally from Jersey, so the Jersey comes out as well as my Irishness comes out. And I like to think that people never have to guess where I stand on issues. And that's why I have been criticized from all ends of the political spectrum.

Sure, sure. There you go. Well, they can follow you there if you ever get back on on a consistent basis. But the final question is, what is your definition of greatness? on a consistent basis. But the final question is, what is your definition of greatness? Oh, my definition of greatness,

accomplishing something that is beneficial to more than yourself, to making a positive difference, to taking full advantage of one's life, to do something productive, something helpful, something important, something profound, something memorable in a good sense, making a contribution to humankind. And sometimes it can be something that is globally known and understood,

but some things that are known only to a relatively few. But unknown people can achieve greatness. It doesn't require a very large public profile. Sometimes people seize opportunities that come to them. They rise to the occasion. And so, again, greatness to me just means that it's something meaningful that someone is able to achieve and accomplish. Again, something that affects more than themselves. Yeah, that's beautiful.

John, I really appreciate you for coming on. I want people to get the book on Daunted. Check this out. And thank you so much for your service, your leadership, and for your humility. Again want people to get the book on Daunted. Check this out. And thank you so much for your service, your leadership, and for your humility again. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Lewis. I really enjoyed the conversation. Best wishes to you and to all your listeners. My friend, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode. If you enjoyed this content with John Brennan, make sure to check out his book and make sure to share this link

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so we can continue to reach and interview more powerful people with greater wisdom to share. If you enjoy inspiration and you wanna be motivated and inspired on a weekly basis, then you can text me the word podcast right now to my number 614-350-3960. I send out weekly inspirational messages over to your phone right there. So just text the word podcast to 614-350-3960. And I want to leave you with this inspiring quote from Marcus Aurelius, who said, And I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter, my friend.

I'm so grateful for you for showing up day in and day out to make your life better and the lives of people around you better. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.