The School of Greatness - 134 From Kitchen Table Startup to Silicon Valley Mega-Success with Mikkel Svane

Episode Date: February 4, 2015

"It's all the little things that matter tremendously." - Mikkel Svane If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at lewishowes.com/podcast/mikkel-svane/

This is episode number 134 with Mikel Svane. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Thank you guys so much for joining me today.

Very excited about today's guest. His name is Mikkel and he is from Denmark. And this is about starting up a business and the real story of what it takes to risk it all and go for broke. Now, conventional wisdom says most startups need to be in Silicon Valley, started by young engineers around a sexy new hot idea and backed by VC funding. But as Mikel Svane reveals in Startup Land, his new book, the story of founding Zendesk was anything but conventional. And Mikael is the founder of Zendesk, which really transformed the customer support industry and business. And so many people use this software online to manage their customer support. So you're

going to learn a lot about customer support in this. Also, the journey of starting up a business, a journey from moving from Denmark over to the US and the transition of that, the differences between the European mentality versus the US mentality, and the positives and negatives of each, how to manage having multiple business partners in a business and a startup, and much, much more. Very excited to bring him on. He is an interesting, fun guy, lots of wisdom, and I know you're going to dig this one. So let's dive into number 134 with Mikel Svane. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. Excited to connect you with today's guest. His name is Mikael Svana.

I believe I'm saying it correct. How are you doing, Mikael? You butchered it. No, I'm doing fine. Thank you. I'm very excited. We were just chatting about handball because you're from the home country where handball was invented. And we just had a conversation that no one in the United States knows about handball.

They all think it's a different type of sport where you hit a ball against a wall. But in fact, it's an extremely exciting sport, and you said you used to play it growing up, so I'm glad we got to connect there. Yep. And you are known for a very powerful piece of software called Zendesk that you created with a couple of buddies back in the day. And it's taken over the world. You have customers in over 150 countries, and it's just grown like crazy. I don't know anyone who doesn't know about Zendesk who's working in the online field or online business or anything like that.

So congratulations on the success, first off. No, thank you so much. Thank you, Lewis. And your book is called Startup Land, How Three Guys Risked Everything to Turn an Idea into a Global Business. And you've created a global business. But I'd like to figure out first, how did Zendesk first come about? And who came up with the idea? And how did you get it started? And who came up with the idea and how did you get it started? Yeah, so I think in many ways, it's a very traditional tech startup story. We are three founders and two of us spent a few years in the customer service software industry and were underwhelmed by the quality of the software in that industry.

And the whole lack of customer centricity in the industry, like nobody really cared about customer service. It was very much a cost center and not something that people saw as an opportunity to better engage and relate with their customers. So we set out just to build a more beautiful, simple, straightforward piece of software and use like brought it up to date, made it modern. So it's cloud-based, it's straightforward, they have a beautiful interface and very consumerish in kind of its approach. And we didn't have a big business plan or anything. We just put it out there

and we got a lot of early great feedback on it. Now you're in Copenhagen when this happened or somewhere in Denmark, right? Correct. We were in Copenhagen. We were working out of my co-founder's small kitchen. Uh-huh. And we did that for almost two years, bootstrapped it for almost two years. Okay.

So you bootstrapped. Did you take on any investment at all? We did a little family and friends. We did that in the early days because we couldn't raise money in Europe. So we did a little family and friends and there was an angel, a German angel investor

who took on to that round. But it was a relatively small round, but it got us through the first couple of years. And when did you realize that it started to take off? When did it start to really like say, whoa, okay, some big names are using this and it's starting to make a lot of money? Oh, I think there's been many small milestones

along the way. It's never like you have one big eureka moment. Sure. But like we, even in the early days, we saw good signals of progress. Suddenly, I remember when MSNBC contacted us out of the blue and wanted to use Zendesk for their internal customer service. And that was a big thing for us. And I remember later when some of the startups

here in Silicon Valley started using Zendesk too. I was also like, okay, now suddenly all these cool companies that we heard on and TechCrunch and so on started using Zendesk. And these two companies like Script and Twitter and Yam and so on, it was really cool that they suddenly started using Zendesk. Interesting. Okay, cool. So that was in the first couple of years. Some of these cool companies started using it and bigger names started using Zendesk. Interesting. Okay, cool. So that was in the first couple of years. Some of these cool companies started using it and bigger names started using it. And when did it start to turn profitable for you guys?

When were you like not on your kitchen table anymore and you had like an office with some real income coming in? Yeah. So like we didn't like this. This was very much a bootstrap startup with no offices and so on for the first couple of years. And it wasn't until we started raising money in the U.S. and moved the company here to

San Francisco in the summer of 2009 that it really became like a real company and where we started to hire an organization and building a real team around it and so on. And when did you launch the company then? If you came to the U.S. in 2009? So we launched in 2007. So a little over, close to two years after we launched, we moved the operations to the U.S. And when did it go public? We went public last year in 2014 may of 2014 so you know uh six something six and a half years after

we we uh we launched uh and you know close to five years after we moved to the u.s so it sounds like to me that you created like an american dream story but you didn't start in america no but i think we we i think i think the american dreams the american dream concept means means something to us like this that because especially in the world of tech startups you know there's a there's a big mental difference between san francisco silicon valley and the mentality in europe and you have an opportunity to dream big and do bigger and and and think bigger here and and go all the way and and and truly disrupt an industry or and and and you don't have the mentality in Denmark are you or in Denmark or in for that matter in a lot of Europe so what is what is the mentality in Denmark in

Europe what what is it and how is it different than the american spirit well i think that that it's you know we we have a lot of um we have a lot of uh i think we just we think smaller you know it's it's not like you see three guys with a computer and you say okay these guys can disrupt an industry you know it's that's not how it is like and and you have in in the U.S., everything can be done. Everything is possible here. And in Europe, it's much more a world that is dominated by our legacy and how we used to do things and how things have always been.

And that's just, it's just a very different mentality. You have more like old boys networks. You have these clubs and secret handshakes and all these different things in Europe that just characterizes a region with a much longer history and with much more legacy and a lot more luggage, if you will. Whereas there is, especially in California, there's a clean slate. There's a willingness to start all over and kill your darlings and all these different things. And I think for a tech startup, that is incredibly inspiring. Yeah. It's almost like if you live in America, anything is possible.

There's that mentality, at least maybe in Silicon Valley and some of the bigger cities,, anything is possible. There's that mentality, at least maybe in Silicon Valley and some of the bigger cities, that anything is possible. Now, I'm curious. Did you have a secret handshake? I think in regions like Europe and Denmark and many other countries, there are a lot of secret handshakes. Did you have one, though? No. No. Now, why did you and your two friends have something different inside of you, have a different spirit inside of you than the general spirit in Europe and in Denmark?

Why was your guys' energy different? Well, I think, I don't know. I think we had this longing longing like we wanted to do something and it and it was a number of very tough decisions to to take it all the way like it is something like taking you know ripping your family and yourself up with their roots and and moving them across the world it's just a big task you know and it it's it's like it you have to be in a in a very healthy position in many ways to to be able to do that because it is it is just it's a big change and and and and we've been so fortunate to be in a position to be able to do that and been very lucky with the

business and the people we have surrounded ourselves with the investors in the company the board that we put together and the very a lot of the early employees and the staff that we put together the team we put together they've always wanted us to do better and and be better and always helped us think bigger and more creatively about the opportunity ahead of us and the business we could build so So, you know, I think it's all the little things that matters tremendously. But taking that first step and saying, okay, let's give it a shot at building the business here in San Francisco rather than doing it out of Denmark

was the platform for everything else that succeeded for us. So would you say when you decided to move and the process of being in Silicon Valley and in America in general that everything shifted and you wouldn't be as big today or successful without that move? Yes. Wow. Interesting. You talk about in your book about the mindset in Silicon Valley, about how everyone talks about failing fast.

And you say that you're never okay with that. Can you talk about why you're never okay with that can you talk about why you're not okay with that mindset well i think that there's some there's there's some sense in kind of the the the fail fast iterate quickly uh mentality of startup yeah there's definitely some sense to it but i think that everybody but you you have, but you have to have a safety net. You have to have, you know, you have to have a big cushion to be able to think positively about failure. For most small businesses, for most startups, you know, where you don't have the cushion, where you don't have anything to fall back on and so on. Like failing is typically a thing with big consequences.

It has consequences for you, for your personal finances, for your employees that suddenly is without a job and for your families and for all these customers that believed in you and believed in your product and gave you their money and all the partners you have and so on. That whole disappointing all these people and disappointing yourself and your family and so on that that kind of failure is just really really tough yeah because you're always letting someone down right yep yeah that's challenging uh so it's more i what i'm hearing from you is more like a dance it's more like yes you want to iterate and

come out with something fast but also you want to have a consistent plan. Like if something doesn't go right, you don't want to just give it up right away. Right? No, I think that, and, and, you know, that is the dilemma of every tech startup entrepreneur that, that on one part of you, you has to be fully blindly motivated and dedicated to what you're doing and not believing in anything else. But there's another part of you that has to be realistic about where you are and the consequences of what you do. And then that is the everyday dilemma of a tech startup founder or an entrepreneur. And that's not easy. There's no formula for that. and nobody can help you kind of really navigate through that process gotcha a lot of people talk about creating something remarkable you know you're the best

marketing plan is to have something remarkable be a purple cow you know stand out and that will help you sell and create awareness for your business, your company, your product, whatever it may be, your software even. But with Zentesk, you talk about it being not sexy or not really a purple cow, let's say. And you talk about it's beautiful being boring. Now, why is boring beautiful? Is it, why is boring beautiful? I think that, I think it's, and I'm talking to somebody, something that probably happens in most, you know,

with the most of the technology industry, that you take something that is typically boring and then you make it, you know, a boring process, like, you know it a boring process like a business process or something that nobody really enjoys doing. And then you figure out a way of just making that simple and easy and straightforward and kind of responsive and sexy and just like interesting. And then suddenly you can completely redefine what that means for people and it can change an industry. I think a little bit like, think about like when you used to receive a check and you have to go down to the bank to put it into your account.

Nowadays you can just scan it with your smartphone and it's on your account right away. That kind of taking a process that is incredibly boring and, and then suddenly making it super easy and sexy. It just, it transforms the whole like notion of giving checks because suddenly it's so easy. And like we did that on a little bit bigger scale with, with customer service, like customer service was nobody,

like nobody wants to contact customer service. If you contact customer service, it's because you're already like, you, you know, you already, like you already angry or mad or already like you you know you're already like you're already angry or mad or something like you know so so like changing that notion so it's actually you know you

can use customer service as something much more proactive to to have a better experience and actually to learn something and and and be positively. It's like suddenly we just make it fluent and transparent and easy and you don't hang in a phone tree and people get back to you really quickly and it's transparent what's going on and you know who you're talking to and so on. That can just change the whole industry. And to some extent, that is what we try to do and to some extent what we did for the customer service software industry.

I like it. So tell me about how the idea originally came about. You just said when someone contacts customer support, they're already not happy or they can't find something or something's not working, so they need to contact to figure out how to make something work. How did you guys, you and your two friends, come up with this idea in the first place?

How did it come about? So the two of us spent a few years in the customer service software industry. And that's where we learned a lot about how complicated we made these systems. And how nobody was empowered. How there was very little transparency. And how complicated it was to make work with the channels that we enjoy using today. Just the fact that you can email somebody and get a response, that's very empowering for consumers.

So we just updated all these modern channels and provided like there's a self-service interface so you can always see what is the status of my request and so on. A lot of these basic things that just provide transparency and that empowers everybody involved and building it out on those values so that it's not only for the end customers but also the people actually providing the customer service experience. So they have a great experience too, so they feel empowered to make decisions and help the customers in the best way. I think these are some of the basic values that we defined to send this grant. I like that. And something I want to point out is I had a business partner in another business of mine that I'd sold.

And things went really well for the first couple of years, but then we just had different views and different visions and ended up, you know, splitting apart and selling the company to him because we, our views went different ways. Now you had, there's three of you that started this and I'm curious to know, did you all share the same viewpoint in the early stages and how did you guys pull it off and work together to have one vision with three different people yeah but that's that's of course

impossible you know i'm also because like this the vision is something that shapes up that that takes shape after time you know after some time you know it. And of course you're not always aligned and you're thinking different ways and so on. So especially in the early days when you have to keep people together and all kind of subscribe to doing the same thing, it's incredibly complicated. And I think in many ways that's where most startups, they fail. Keeping the founders together and keeping them committed to a joint vision is incredibly complicated. It's a little bit like a relationship. It's like you start somewhere and then you evolve.

And some people just grow apart. And that's incredibly complicated. Do you feel like it's different in business relationships like things are more cordial in denmark or european culture over maybe the american culture where it's more ego or solo focused type of mentality what do you think uh we have egos too you know we had big we each of us had egos and it was it was hard to keep us aligned you know and it was hard for us to to all you know doing this at this in the same pace and and and also because in a startup like it's it it's a different phases in your company's life where you can really make a difference.

And like, you know, when somebody works really hard and there's two other co-founders not working so hard. But then you have another period where it's one of the other founders that works really hard. And that whole dynamic is just really complicated. But I think that we were in a fortunate position that each of us, like, we were not in our 20s. We were in our 30s. We were, you know, in many ways old. And, like, we saw this as our baby in many ways. And we all wanted the best for the baby.

So you live through these things. You live through the differences. You live through the facts that you're not always aligned and you're not always super happy in the relationship, but you know, the, you all double down on making sure that you're doing what's best for the baby. And, and Alex and Morton are the other two founders,

correct? Yep. And are you guys, are you still close with them? Oh yeah. We see each other daily basis. We still, all of us works in the San Francisco office and,

and our families get together and so on. Nice. Okay, cool. So it's worked out so far. That's good. So tell me some, you know, you've been in the customer support industry for a long time now, and you've had lots of experience with Zendesk, with all the different companies you've worked with, and you've probably seen some horrible uses of customer support and some incredible uses of customer support.

Can you share some of the best things you've learned along the way on how to keep customers happy? Well, I think that I think it comes from the inside. You know, I think that it is it's in the it's it has to do with the mentality of the company. The company has to embrace the fact that customer service is a really, really hard discipline. You know, nobody really enjoys it. You don't enjoy it from the, nobody, it's not like you don't have, it's not like you sit down and say, oh my God, I'm going to call customer service. It's going to be awesome. You know, and the people working in customer service often, you know, when they take a

call, they know that people are upset or angry or have questions or frustrated or doesn't understand what's going on. And that's just like it's really hard. But it's a little bit like exercising, you know, getting up every morning at 6 a.m. and running in the rain or in the snow or lifting weights or whatever you do. Nobody really enjoys that until you get to a point where you kind of realize how good it is for you and how much you learn from it and how you sleep better and eat better and you have better sex and all these different things. That's a little bit the same with customer service.

Like once you get into starting embracing it, you understand how much you learn about your customers and your product and ultimately yourself. And, you know, I think if you approach it that way understand how much you learn about your customers and your product and ultimately yourself and and and you know i think if you if you approach it that way and say like this is a this is a complicated sport this is hard work and like but you have to go out there and in many ways just do it a little bit like you know you the nike commercial and getting out on the highway running. And, you know, once you get to that,

I think you have a real opportunity to see customer service as something that can give you, like, a real relationship with your customers and can take your company to new levels. It's really, really easy to provide bad customer service. I'm not, you know, I did a lot of... Do nothing, do nothing and you do a bad job. Well, I did a lot of our customer service i'm not you know i did a lot of do nothing do nothing and you do a bad job well i did a lot of our customer service in the early days and it's it's it was really easy to fuck it up it's really to disappoint your customers and not understanding them

correctly and and not showing empathy and and all these different things it's it's really really easy not to do it in a good way. Sure. It's hard. And the American mentality would be that people from Europe maybe don't have empathy for people. Because the thing is, you know, when you go over to Europe, they actually, you know, at least in restaurants, it's like there's no service. And no one's around and no one shows up and you't get water filled you can't get your food you basically have to go grab it yourself whereas americans are used to that mentality of how can i help you yeah and what do you need and so that's interesting well but i think you know i think most amer Americans also have plenty of examples of terrible companies. Of course, yes.

I'm just generalizing it. It's one of these things that is really hard to scale, especially. And I think that building on some good values around transparency, empowerment, trusting people, and always taking the high road, and always never start with distrusting people, and so on. road and always, you know, never start with distrusting people and so on. Building on some of these values, I think, is incredibly helpful for great customer service. Yeah. There's a lot of entrepreneurs that are listening here that feel overwhelmed. They feel like they take on their entire business by themselves, like they have to do everything themselves.

There's just too many tasks for them to do. And it can be a challenge for some of them to let go of their responsibility and to bring on the right team. Now, can you talk about how you find the right people with the same values that you share to build a successful business? Because I know it's all about having the right team of the people that have the right values. But how do you find those people that you can trust, that you can rely on, that live the same type of values that you have with your company? But that is really complicated. And in many ways, it's a little bit of hit or miss, you know, you, you,

you end up hiring people that turns out not to be the right people for you and for the team or for the dynamic of the team. And, and when you, when that happens, you just have to figure out a way of, of, of moving forward and correcting along the way. So like, but I think you realize these things once you really try it, you know, once you go into it and say, okay, like, let's try to hire somebody that, you know, will take over the responsibility and find the right person and trust them with that responsibility. And I think, especially in our early days, like one of the one of the first things we

did or not one of the first things, but one of the early things we did was to hire a VP of product engineering. Somebody who's tried to scale an engineering organization before. Somebody who had a network and all these different things. In many ways, it was a little sensitive for us because with the team structure and so on, Morten and Alex had to work very closely with that guy. To some extent, extent report into him. He had to be able to manage that relationship. So it was incredibly sensitive for us and it was a very tough position to fill. We were then lucky to find that person who was the exact right person,

not only for coming in with that experience and with the network and, and with the team, but also somebody who could navigate that tension of, of founders and egos and all these different things. And, and so like it comes so much down to the initial team and the people you, you, you, you initially hired to your team, like your success depends so much on them because they are you know they they help you with that scaling that is you know so

critical sure what is the ideal personality type of someone to hire to manage customer support for your company for customer service well i think i would always go you know like attitude over skills like somebody who loves talking to people somebody who is like who has that ability to show energy who doesn't like doesn't take things personal extrovert and like all these different things. And I think our initial customer service staff was a lot of, it's a random bunch in many ways, but they came in with a great attitude and have really, a lot of these guys have built a whole career in Zendesk and are now doing incredibly interesting things. But come in with that attitude and can show skills where they, they know what it is in a small organization. They like, they don't get upset if somebody swears or a little out of order and, and, you know, are curious about cultures and are curious about different people

and so on and that kind of openness and diversity in your organization just like super important when you build the initial team talk to me about investing how many you raised a little bit early on with family and friends you said yeah and then how much more did you raise since then or how many rounds yeah so we did four rounds after coming to San Francisco. So we did an A, B, C, and a D. And in total, it was, I think, $80, $90 million, something like that. And I think the same thing applies for finding investors. It has to be people that can, you know, help you grow both as a team, as a CEO, as a board, and takes you kind of to the next level.

And we've been very fortunate with the investors that we found through this company, and they all help us grow the company. It's not only, it's not about the money. It's, of course, also about the money, but it's more about the people. Relationships, of course, also about the money, but it's more about the people. Relationships, the strategy, right? Yeah, exactly.

And their ability to help you take it further. Do you feel like your investments were necessary to get to this level? Or do you feel like you could have done it through other channels or continue to bootstrap? Or do you feel like it's wise to take investment if you're a growing company, growing startup? No. We went public five years after we moved to the U.S., a little under five years after we moved to the U.S. And then at that point, we had, what did we have, 600, 700 employees. We had a run rate of close to $100 million.

had a run rate of close to 100 million dollars we had uh customers almost we had 40 45 000 customers in 140 50 countries and like you can't build that kind of scale in such a short time without some funding especially when you are like a subscription service like software services like it's it's like it's very hard to finance that initial growth through your own means. Sure. But we have built a very efficient business and we're not very capital. We are very capital efficient and we're not burning a lot.

But still, it gives us the freedom to grow really quickly. I like that. What's next for you and Zendesk? Well, in many ways, going public has just been the first step in a new journey for Zendesk. And like, we're really excited about the opportunity we have ahead of us.

Like we've been doing so many different things. We're growing a lot of market and suddenly engaging with all these large enterprises about their customer service strategy and their whole CRM and customer engagement strategies. And they're incredibly exciting for us. We also built out a whole new set, about their customer service strategy and the whole CRM and customer engagement strategies. And they're incredibly exciting for us. We also built out a whole new set, a generation of a whole new set of tools for engaging with your customers so that customer service becomes more like an embedded experience rather than

a destination you have to go to. And that really takes customer service to the next level where it's where customer service suddenly available for you when and where you have the issue rather than has to be somewhere you have to go after having an issue and so we're it's just a it's just a huge opportunity there's so much we can do here there's so many things so many new things that that this market shows for us. And like, we have a team that is incredibly excited and hardworking and, and global and, and it just makes it, it's just incredibly fun. And, and, and we're really enjoying it.

I like that. I like the direction. What are you most grateful for in your life right now? Oh, what am I grateful for? I think like, you know, we've come nowhere without this fantastic team that we built here in San Francisco. And like, just coming to a city where you feel like home

and where everybody has welcomed you and made you successful is an incredible experience. And like, we are so privileged to have built this startup and taking it so far. It's a very unique experience and that like that we are so privileged to have built this startup and and taking it so

far it's it's very unique experience and and we are just incredibly grateful for having had that opportunity i like it well well michael i want to acknowledge you i have one more question for you but i want to acknowledge you first for creating for having a vision to create something that so many people find helpful in their business. You know, something that is such a challenge for people. You've created a system that allows people to have ease and be at least a little more relaxed with their customer support. So I acknowledge you for the drive that it took to do everything with two other partners,

come to America and make this happen. So thank you for all that you've done. And then before I ask you the final question, I want to make sure everyone goes and checks out the book. I'll let you know the link of where to get this on the show notes after this last question. But the book is called Start Up Land, How Three Guys Risked Everything

to Turn an Idea into a Global Business. And it's a funny story of what it takes to risk it all and go for broke. So I'll have a link up for that on the show notes. But the final question, Mikel, is what is your definition of greatness? Oh, I think greatness, what is my definition? I think that your ability to be able to be open, be, now I'm looking, now I'm searching for proper words in English. So like embrace people for what they are, embrace the world for what it is,

that things, you know, things are good, things are bad, things are complicated. Some things are easy. People are not, it's some things are easy people are not it's not always easy with people people have their own set of issues people have problems and and it's like being you know being able to embrace that it's a complicated world out there i think i think it characterizes people that have the opportunity that have the opportunity, that have the capacity to maybe do great things is that they can embrace

all the different colors and all the different angles and all the different complexities there are to the world today. Great answer. Thank you so much, Mikael, for sharing and for finding the words in English. I appreciate you coming on,

and thanks so much for all you do. No, thank you so much. And there you have it, guys. Hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, do me a big favor and head back to lewishouse.com slash 134. That's right, lewishouse.com slash 134. We got links where you can go find Startup Land, the book, and get that information, more information about Zendesk and what Mikel is up to. You can check out all the show notes over there of what we covered. And if you enjoyed this, go ahead back over there and share this with your friends over on Facebook or Twitter.

Again, the episode is lewishouse.com slash 134. So if you got someone who's an entrepreneur or someone who wants to start a startup, definitely email them this episode and share it with them because I think they'll get a lot out of this. Thank you guys so much for coming on. We've got some big episodes coming up. So excited to bring them to you soon. And for those that have been asking for more female guests on the School of Greatness, we've got some epic females coming on here shortly. So stay tuned for that. Thank you guys again for coming on.

You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. សូវបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបារូវតែលារបស់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ Thank you. BOO!