The School of Greatness - 166 How to Stand Out and Be a Thought Leader with Dorie Clark

Episode Date: April 20, 2015

"Take control of your narrative. If you leave it to other people, they'll get it wrong." - Dorie Clark If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at www.lewishowes.com/166

This is episode number 166 with Dori Clark. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to today's episode with my friend Dori Clark.

She's got a book out called Stand Out, How to Find Your Breakthrough Idea and Build a Following Around It. And a lot of entrepreneurs come to me and say, I don't know how to come up with a good idea. And the idea that I do have, I don't know how to attract people, attract customers, and build an audience around that. Can you teach me how to do this? And there's some things that Dory talks about in this episode that I think are going to

be very helpful and very beneficial for you. Because we talk about all of the things we need to do to, one, come up with a powerful idea that's really newsworthy, that's interesting enough that people want to spread the message for you. Then how to convert that idea into a following and a powerful following and becoming a thought leader in a specific industry or niche or a space. So we cover a lot of these things today about how to do this, find your idea, breakthrough, stand out from all your competitors, and build a loyal following around that.

I think you're going to enjoy this. Quick little note about Dori Clark. She's a marketing strategy consultant, professional speaker, and frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Entrepreneur in the World Economic Forum blog. She's recognized as a branding expert by the Associated Press, Fortune, and Inc. Magazine. And she's an author of the book called Reinventing You, Define Your Brand, Imagine Your Future, and also the new book we just talked about called Stand Out. She's also got some incredible facts and stats about her that I'm

about to share with you guys in a second when we start the interview. She went to college at the age of 14. So that alone is pretty remarkable in my mind, considering it took me, you know, seven plus years to graduate college at the, you know, and I could barely get in at 18. So I'm excited for you to connect with this information about how to stand out and build your breakthrough idea. Now, let's go ahead and dive in with the one, the only Dory Clark. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. Got a friend on today.

Her name is Dory Clark. How are you doing, Dory? Hey, Lewis. Great to be talking with you. I'm excited to dive into this topic, which is a new book you have out called Stand Out, How to Find Your Breakthrough Idea and Build a Following Around It. And I think this is perfect for my audience because there's a lot of entrepreneurs are budding entrepreneurs who are caught or they're stuck or they're not sure how to create their own noise, in a sense, and stand out from the crowd of all

the different competitors who are talking about similar things. So I think this is a perfect topic to dive into. And before we go into it, there are some fun facts I want to clarify with you and make sure that these are true, which I didn't realize until we met a while ago because you invited me to an author's dinner. But then the more research I did in you, I was pretty fascinated. And I thought this stands out on its own.

Number one fact is you entered Mary Baldwin's college program for the exceptionally gifted at age 14. Is that right? It is true. We all hated the name. We thought it was very embarrassing, but yes, I did do that. So you were actually in college, like college college at 14. Is that what it was or was it a special college? No, it was legit college. Wow. Yeah. They made me take one class because I, because, because I hadn't, I hadn't had it yet in high school. Uh, I, you know, I'd gone through ninth grade and then I left to go to college. Uh, and I somehow had not taken geometry yet. And they were so concerned about that for

some reason I entered college and was taking regular college classes, but they made me take one high school class of geometry because apparently, you know, you can't be a successful adult without it. But yeah. Okay. So that's pretty incredible. I don't know anyone else who went to college, you know, at 14. So that's pretty incredible. That stands out by itself.

Then you graduated from Smith College at 18. Is that right? Yep, exactly. So you went to one college at 14. But did you transfer or what happened? Yeah, I did two years at Mary Baldwin and then I transferred up to Smith, which is in Western Mass to finish up. Okay, cool. So I don't know anyone who's finished college at 18, so that's pretty impressive.

And then you received a master's at Harvard Divinity School at 20. So two years later, you got a master's. Is that right? Yeah. I thought about it. And when I was 18, I just didn't really feel ready to enter the workforce. Just everyone was so much older than me. I wasn't even sure how I would relate to them exactly. So I thought, you know what? I might as well keep rocking this school thing. So I figured I'd just plow right into a master's degree. There you go. Did you get a PhD as well or no? No. Actually, one of my great adversities that I've overcome, so to speak, is that I wanted to get a PhD. I mean, I was sort of on that track. And I was good at school, and I liked it. And I

decided that I wanted to become a literature professor. And so after I finished my master's degree, I applied to doctoral programs and I ended up not getting into any of them. And I literally didn't have a plan B. I thought for sure I'd get into one of them. I just didn't know which one, but that was not to be. And so I had to really scramble and come up with another plan for myself. And that kind of began my reinventing process. Okay. Now, why did you decide to create this book and to research this topic? And why stand out? Is it because you've always stood out since you were younger? Or why the reason? Well, in some ways, it's actually the opposite, Lewis. It's that from the time that I was young, and maybe some of your listeners have felt similarly, I knew I wanted to have an impact. I knew I wanted to do something great. I wanted to be able to make a difference, but I really didn't know how or in what realm. I just

kind of had this amorphous sense that I wanted to do something big or important or meaningful, but I really didn't know. And when you're a big or important or meaningful, but, you know, I really didn't know. And, you know, when you're a teenager, it's like, oh, I'll be a rock star or whatever. And then, you know, when I was in my 20s, it took me a really long time to actually settle on my field, not for lack of trying, but there were a lot of different things that I tried. You know, I tried to enter the doctoral program and that didn't work. I got it. I then got a job as a political journalist and promptly a year later got laid off because, uh, journalists were losing their jobs. Then I got a couple of jobs, uh,

working on political campaigns. I mean, actually pretty cool campaigns. I was the press secretary for a governor's race. I was the spokesperson on a presidential race, both my candidates lost. So I was doing all these things and it was, it was like a on a presidential race, both my candidates lost. So I was doing all these things and it was, it was like a hypothesis, you know, I'm testing, all right, well, maybe, maybe I can, you know, have impact here or maybe I can do this. But once, once I found that, once I actually found the place that I wanted to, to really make my mark that, that, you know, felt like a good career, um, which is nine years ago, I started doing what I'm doing now with my consulting business and marketing and strategy and, uh, strategy work. I realized, you know, wow, you know, I've found it, but then how do you

stand out and get noticed? How do you actually get people to pay attention to you? And even more importantly, how do you sculpt yourself into the kind of person that is worth paying attention to? And so essentially in search of answers for myself, I wanted to write this book where I interviewed about 50 top thought leaders, many of whom have actually been on your show, like David Allen and Gary Vaynerchuk and Ramit Sethi, and also people in other fields as well, from science to urban planning, to try to understand what makes for a breakthrough idea and then how do you get noticed for it. Okay. Now, we've all heard the term thought leader a lot. And what is thought leader, the definition of thought leader, and who coined this term or where did it originate?

Yeah. So the original use of the term thought leader actually came in 1994. There was a guy named Joel Kurtzman, who was a journalist who worked at a business publication. It was called Strategy Plus Business. And he came up with a term, which originally he just used it to mean a thinker whose ideas, quote unquote, merited attention. But the term has just kind of metastasized since then. I mean, you know, now everybody's calling themselves a thought leader. And, you know, as a result of that, I think a lot of people push back on it or they sort of make fun of it a little bit because they think, oh, geez, yeah, another thought leader.

because they think, oh, geez, yeah, another thought leader. But I actually want to be a little bit of a defender of the term, because for me, if you parse the pieces of it, the pieces are actually pretty important. And that is, you know, the first part, thought. It implies that the person is famous, not for being famous, not in a Kardashian sense, but they are famous for their ideas. And the second part, their thought leader, it implies they have to have followers, meaning it's not an ivory tower academic. It's not someone who's just coming up with ideas. It's someone who's actually getting out there and doing them and talking to people and having an impact. And I think those are pretty worthy things to aspire to. That's cool. And what do you think is the difference between thought leader and an entrepreneur?

So I think that an entrepreneur can be. It doesn't necessarily have to be a thought leader, but I think that when the two combine, that can actually be tremendously powerful. Because what you're trying to do here as a, as a thought leader, it's about moving the dialogue forward in some way. It's a, it's really about having a lasting impact with your ideas. And so as an entrepreneur, if you can do that, which, um, you know, is, is sort of a societal good and you're able to monetize that, that's, I think that's the best thing in the world. I, I, I. That's what I strive for. And I think probably a lot of your listeners do as well. Sure. And why do you believe that building

a strong reputation is the best way to protect or advance your business, your career? We're talking about becoming a thought leader. I want to dive into how to do that here in a second. But why do you believe building this reputation is the best way to protect yourself for your future? Well, I think one of the key things here, Lewis, is that as we have gotten to be a, you know, much flatter, more global society, it has become increasingly clear that literally for anything you do, there is someone who's going to do it cheaper. And they might be around the corner. They might be around the world.

But there is an alternative. And, you know, I mean, I remember even 10 years ago when I was starting my business, you know, you'd look for a web designer. And it's like, oh, well, you know, who do I know from the Chamber of Commerce? Oh, okay. You know, I'll get him. And it was like, well, you know, your range of possibility was who is the person in your town? Now the range is who can you find on Elance or Odesk? And the competition is just huge.

And so as a result, for all of us, we really have to justify why us. And it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It doesn't have to be a thing that puts us on the defensive. Ideally, this is a positive and proactive thing. You are giving people a reason to want to seek you out specifically and to choose you to do business with because you offer something unique by dint of your expertise or your own personal experience that no one else can. And I think that, you know, that leads to greater authenticity. If we really claim it, that can be a very powerful force.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people might be somewhat scared of this idea of being a thought leader. So I want to ask you that question in a second. But you, you know, in your book, I have a section written down I want to read. You say that thought leadership is a lot more than just making money. True thought leadership is a gift. It's a willingness to be brave, open up, and share yourself. It's a willingness to have your ideas shot down because you genuinely believe they can help others. It's a willingness to trust that your generosity will benefit the world. And that speaks

true to me. I'm all about that game. But for some people, it can be really scary because they're like, I don't want to get my idea shot down. I don't want to put myself out there and be that open and vulnerable because it sets me up for potential failures. So do you think it's necessary that everyone strive to be a thought leader? Or is it more, can they still be a successful entrepreneur if they're not quote unquote a thought leader? I think one of the keys here, Lewis, is that when we talk about thought leaders, I mean, generally when the term is applied, it means the thought leaders of the world, the great business pantheon. And certainly, it's not realistic for every person to be that or to

want to be that. That's fine. But what I do think is really essential is that in whatever realm you're in, you need to try to be a thought leader in that realm. If you're an IT guy, you darn well better be the most knowledgeable person about computers in your company. You can be a local thought leader within your company about how to fix the computers or whatever. So I think it's really just thinking about how do you become recognized for your expertise in whatever universe you want to play in. I like that. It's kind of like, yeah, any type of community. It could be your town. It could be your company.

It could even be your family, it sounds like. You could be the person that can solve the problems for the five people in your family and be known as that expert or thought leader in your little clan, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, who wants to live a life where they are the most average person in every realm of their life? I mean, that sounds terrible. You know, you got to find a place. You can pick the place, but find a place and a thing to stand out for. I like that. And we're talking about standing out and specifically in business, it's important to be able to stand out in some way, shape or form

to be able to generate sales and get customers or, you know, and build your business so you can survive. So you got to stand out and you got to build a following around it, which is valuable, what you talk about. So with all the information out there shared every day, every minute, all of the noise constantly online and, you know, advertising all over the place, How can someone get started to stand out? Yeah. So there's a couple of key pieces here, Lewis. I mean, the first part is coming up with the kind of ideas that really do merit attention, that are worthwhile. And then the second part is beginning to share that with the world and hopefully get them excited about it.

So, I mean, just to share a couple of strategies initially with you, and we can go into more depth about any of these. What I discovered in these interviews with the 50 top experts is that there's actually real patterns in terms of the types of ideas that people come up with and get known for. You know, what is it that makes them famous? I was really captivated by this question because, you know, when we think about some of the top people in our field, it almost seems like the way that they're talked about, they've always been famous. You know, oh yeah, Dan Pink, he's always been famous. David Allen, he's always been famous. But the truth is, they haven't. There was a point where they weren't, and then suddenly they were, and what happened in between? And so I wanted to look at that moment. And so one example that I think is really, I found it useful in my life, is to think about if you were wanting to come up with something that

really is a breakthrough idea, how do you prime your mind for that? Well, one of the things that I discovered is that combining ideas from different disciplines or different fields is actually one of the most powerful ways to do it. And the reason is that if you are so locked in the mentality and the mindset of one particular discipline, it is really hard to see other ways of doing things. But if you suddenly bring in this infusion from another field, possibilities present themselves. And one example that's become a huge business bestseller in the past few years is The Lean

Startup by Eric Ries. This is a guy who worked in the startup space, and he ended up writing a book about it where he combined technology entrepreneurship and something that literally almost couldn't be further from it, which is lean manufacturing techniques that were pioneered by Toyota to improve processes on an industrial factory floor. I mean, that's almost anti-high tech. And he melded them together and was able to create literally a revolution in terms of how people thought about creating startups and launching businesses.

Today, there are 750,000 people around the world who are involved in lean startup meetup groups. Would you say 750,000? Yes, in 84 countries. Wow. Who are just going over these ideas and brainstorming and talking about how to use it for their own business? That's right. I mean, to me, that's actually the ultimate in a powerful idea is you reach this place where you're not even the person talking about it anymore. Other people are talking about it.

Eric Ries can't be in 84 places at once or 84 countries at once. The genie is out of the bottle and his idea has officially spread. I like that. That's cool. So what are a few questions that someone can ask themselves when wanting to find, you know, a breakthrough idea, you know, that was Eric Reese's breakthrough idea, but what's someone, some questions that people can ask to see what is mine, you know, what am I going to do? That's thought leadership worthy, um, to put out there.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one, one thing I'll actually just mention quickly, Lewis, is that for folks who are interested in diving into this in a big way, I actually created a free 42 page workbook that I adapted from standout. And literally it is all of the questions from the end of the chapter sections that I put into workbook format. It is 139 questions, uh, that walks you through in incremental steps, how to develop your breakthrough idea. And that's available for free on my website, doryclark.com. Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll make sure to link that up as well.

Yeah, definitely. Okay. So in terms of specific questions, though, I mean, you know, one that is a favorite of mine is how are your skills and experiences different than those of most people in your industry? And, you know, that sort of, I think, speaks to an important part. I actually wrote a previous book called Reinventing You, where I talked about this theme a lot, that when someone is different, when they are, you know, maybe, you know, changing careers or something, they come into a new industry, or maybe they just look different than everybody else in the room, they start to sometimes doubt themselves and say,

should I be here? Because obviously everyone else has this same background or the same education. Can I make a contribution? Am I going to be helpful? But actually, the really important thing is to reframe that because this is the moment where your perceived weakness can actually become your strength. And it can be the locus of innovation because since you have done something differently than everybody else, I mean, let's say you have, you know, everyone else is an engineer and you studied advertising or marketing or something like that, you are absolutely going to see the world in a different way than them. And you could let that attitude sort of infect your brain and say, oh, I can't help them.

I don't know anything about engineering. But instead, it's about stepping up and saying, actually, I can help them a lot because I'm seeing things that they probably aren't. Yeah, that's interesting. I had a conversation with Robert Greene one time, the author of The 48 Laws of Power, and I asked him about was he always successful at writing books? And he said, absolutely not. It took me about 15, 20 years to actually figure out coming to the point of writing

these types of books where he used to do screenwriting and then he did copywriting for people and he did, um, you know, other storytelling writing and newspaper writing. And he, he figured out that all the skills that he learned along the way in all these different areas brought him to create these unique type of books that people fell in love with. And, uh, it was all the different perspectives that he learned along the way and all the different skill sets he learned, which

actually allowed him to create what looks like this breakthrough idea now, to create kind of a following around that. So I like that. And it reminds me and it kind of confirms the point for me that I always try to look for things that I can use in the different things I do in my life. Like I try to use sports in business and I try to use salsa dancing in my business and I try to figure out how can I use something that I learned in another skill towards making what I'm doing better or more interesting. So I think that's cool point that you have there. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, one brief story that I'll just share along these lines of someone that I profile and stand out is a guy named Paco Underhill,

who actually wrote, I think, one of the best business books of the last 10 or 20 years called Why We Buy. And he has a consultancy. It's actually a retail consultancy called EnviroCell. It's actually a retail consultancy called EnviroCell. And he started out his training as an anthropologist. And he literally, he worked for a nonprofit called the Center for Public Spaces. And he would be monitoring pedestrian street traffic to see, you know, where people were moving and why and understanding all these things about civic and urban planning. And he had this epiphany one day standing in line at the bank where, you know, it was obviously really poorly organized and everybody was waiting in line at the bank. And he thought, wait a minute, we could apply these same principles to retail customers. You know, what makes for a good city, it makes for a good store and we we could actually sell our services and this could be like a whole new line of business. And so he goes to his boss, his boss is completely uninterested. And so Paco ends up going out on his own and starting his own company doing it. But today,

what he is, is an anthropologist who consults for businesses about how to make their retail environments both in person and online better based on these fundamental human characteristics about what we look for in a comfortable space. Interesting. That's pretty cool. He leverages talent that way. Yeah. That's very cool. Tell me about this concept of slow hunch. Can you tell me what that is?

Yeah, this is an interesting one. Stephen Johnson, who is a really interesting Bay Area writer, done a number of books, most recently one called Future Perfect. One of my favorites of his is actually called Where Good Ideas Come From. And it's really just sort of tracing the concept of these breakthrough ideas. So certainly it informed a lot of my thinking in writing my book. But in his, he talks about this notion of a so-called slow hunch, which is the story that he tells to exemplify it is that of Charles Darwin, because, you know, we, we sometimes think when, you know, when we picture what an archetypal breakthrough idea is, we just imagine, you know, Oh, right. It's, it's gotta be this like lightning bolt of insight.

And then all of a sudden, you know, one minute you don't know it the next minute you do boom, you know, the person has been enlightened. But the truth is, enlightenment, quote unquote, usually goes a lot slower. And it comes in different forms. And that's perhaps why it can be surprising to us. And so literally for Charles Darwin, if you look, as researchers have done, at his diaries when he was discovering the concept of evolution. For months, he was almost there. He was literally just so close, kind of hashing it out and trying to think about it, trying to figure it out. And one day it broke, but it was literally this months-long process of being just a few paces away from really being able to perceive it in its entirety.

Interesting. That's very cool. This is something I talk about with newer entrepreneurs starting out. They always have interesting questions about how to kind of break through and just start getting sales in the first place. And you suggest building a base knowledge in a narrow subject area, which is something I talk about as well. Originally, I got started talking about LinkedIn. And it's not what I wanted to do long term, but I wanted to be known for something first in a narrow space, talking LinkedIn as opposed to all of social media like everyone else was doing. I became the expert in one topic. How do you recommend someone finding their niche getting started like that? Yeah. And I think your experience, Lewis, is terrific

because what you really need to do if you're going to be leveraging a niche strategy to develop as a thought leader is exactly what you've done, which is find the initial place to make your mark, go deep in it, and then use that strategically. And so some of the ways that you can, I mean, number one, if you become an expert on this niche item, you have far less competition, right? Because if I say, you know, to take your example, oh, I'm a social media expert, Because if I say, you know, to take your example, oh, I'm a social media expert, then, you know, there's literally a million people that they could be talking to about it. Why on earth would they pick you? You know, there's not a good reason. But if you say, I'm an expert in LinkedIn or I am the world's number one Meerkat expert, which is not very hard since, you know, it just launched.

It's like a month old, yeah. You know, okay, you actually can probably do that. You start your Meerkat blog today and pretty soon, a month later, you have 30 entries about Meerkat. So yeah, you probably do know more than any other human about it at that point. So you dive in, get known for it, and two things happen. Number one is you start making connections. If you get interviewed by someone because you're the LinkedIn expert, well, guess what? They probably write a lot of other articles. And because they've come to you, they know who you are, they know that you're smart,

they know you have good things to say, pretty soon, because you have those relationships, they're going to start coming to you for other things. Or you have the connection where you can say, hey, you know, I have this, you know, this guest post that I'd like to pitch. It's on a slightly different subject, but you know, it's, it's related. Would you run it? And they're far more likely to say yes, because they already have that relationship. The other thing is, uh, is what is called the halo effect, which operates in psychology. And it, it basically is the phenomenon that refers to the fact that if you are perceived by others as being good at one thing, that actually spreads out

like a halo and people begin to think that you're good at everything. And, you know, so this is how, you know, we get things like Arnold Schwarzenegger being the governor, Oh, he's a great actor. Clearly, he'd be a good governor. It's just these sort of general qualities that get attributed to people. I think the reason that works for me specifically is that, or why that works on me, is because if someone can learn to be great at one thing and they can show that they've been disciplined and worked hard enough to get to the top in one area, then they can usually replicate that. Now, it may be a bad fit.

Maybe they shouldn't be the president or something, but they can usually replicate engineering greatness in something else if they learn to be great at one thing or be an expert. So I think that's kind of why it works for me. So once you've created your breakthrough idea, you've gone through the questioning of figuring it out, you've built this thought leadership, and you're starting to build a following, a small following. What are some ways that you talk about and emphasize on building a bigger following and really building a following where people just talk about you organically, like with Eric Ries and these groups all over the world where they're creating their own following for you.

Yeah. So what I discovered, Lewis, in doing this research is that when it comes to building your following, there is a three-step process that almost everybody follows. And if you, if you do it, you know, in this order, it's, uh, that's really what it's, uh, necessary to do because otherwise, um, it can become a little bit of a disjointed process. So the, the first step, as you alluded to, is starting with a small following, a small group of trusted advisors. Um, that's, you know, what I call building a network. And the reason that I think that's so important is that, in all honesty, some ideas at the beginning are not that good, or they're not that refined. And you need people that have your back, but that you trust enough

to listen to them so that they can say, you know what, maybe not this one, or you know what, this would be so good if you just did these two things. And that is what enables you to get the ideas into a good enough form, into good enough shape that when you actually do present them to the world, the world is ready to receive them. And they can provide, you know, pretty crucial early resources, support, you know, they can help you with that spread. The next stage is building an audience. And that is where you start to communicate more broadly with the world. This is probably the most visible part of the marketing effort. It is going out and talking on podcasts or writing blog posts or giving speeches or otherwise getting your idea into the public square and making people aware of it. And, you know, so,

so then, you know, okay, people can discover you, they get intrigued, they get drawn in then for the very best ideas, because a lot of ideas die at that phase, but for the best ideas, the ones that actually cross over, that is where it goes from communicating with an audience to having a community around them. And the distinction is that it's no longer just you talking about it. It's people who believe in it enough that they are talking to each other about the idea and helping it spread. And what I've discovered is that the crucial ingredient, I mean, of course, there's some tactical things you can do to make it easier for people to share the information or

whatever. But fundamentally, what determines whether an idea is going to be able to have a community around it is almost baked into its DNA. From its inception, it has to be a useful idea and useful to someone who is not you. I think that's where a lot of ideas die is that it's great for you, but it doesn't necessarily have value or interest or relevance to the rest of the world. But when people heard Eric Ries' lean startup idea, they said, you know what? That can help me run my business better. That can help me get venture funding faster. That can help me avoid a painful failure. And so they glommed onto it.

If you have an idea like that that really is useful for people, they will go to the ends of the earth to support you and to spread it. I like that. So what do you think makes you stand out and what's helped you build the following that you have? Well, you know, one of the strategies that I'm trying to follow, because I am trying to, you know, walk the talk with this. One of the five strategies that I lay out in the first part of the book about how to come up with your breakthrough idea, David Allen, your previous and recent guest on the School of Greatness,

actually exemplifies this. And it's called a strategy of building a framework. And essentially, what this means is that we often assume for the sort of day-to-day professions that we work in or fields, that everything that could possibly have been said about it has been said. I think, you know, a lot of people would be pretty surprised to contemplate the idea that, you know, oh, you know, the framework, the fundamental framework of a field hasn't really been articulated. But the truth is, The fundamental framework of a field hasn't really been articulated. But the truth is people have been talking about things like influence and persuasion for millennia. And it took Robert Cialdini, the well-known psychologist who's the author of the book Influence, it took until he, 20 or 30 years ago, wrote that book to come up with a framework where he actually said, hey, actually, there's only six ways you can persuade someone. Here's what they are. And it was so profound. It was such a profound simplification and a structure that made sense to people and helped them that literally anytime

someone talks about influence now, they talk about Cialdini. Similarly with David Allen. I mean, people have been grappling with how to be more productive forever. Certainly, it's only gotten worse since the advent of social media and email. But this is a concern forever. But David Allen encapsulated it in getting things done. He created this real structure and framework so that people could rely on it and it could help make their lives simpler. And in doing that, he became the go-to guy for that. For me, what I'm attempting to do with this book is to really provide a framework for people who would like to stand out in their fields. But maybe they're not sure what their big idea is yet. Maybe they don't quite, they want to make a contribution, but they don't quite know how. Or they might have an idea, but they're not quite sure how to spread it. I would like to be able to provide enough of a roadmap for them that it becomes easier for those good ideas to spread. Because I would like to live

in a world where it's not the loudest voice that wins, but instead it's the best idea that wins. I like that. And you also mentioned that you say, actually in the book, it's rare that we make time for the kind of sustained reflection that is necessary for breakthrough ideas. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. One of the stories that I tell in Standout is actually about Daniel Goleman, who some of your listeners may recognize as the gentleman behind the emotional intelligence phenomenon. And, you know, when I started to look into Daniel Goleman, I mean, you know, I started out by literally just sort of brainstorming, like, you know, what are the really big ideas in the world of business or other big professions? And emotional intelligence just stood out. I mean, the Harvard Business Review called it literally the breakthrough idea of the 1990s.

And so I started peeling it back and saying, all right, well, where did that idea come from? What actually is its genesis? And I had assumed, I didn't really know anything about his background, that Daniel Goleman was a researcher, that he was talking about his findings maybe, but that's actually not true. He did go to graduate school for psychology, but at the time he was a reporter. And he was literally, as part of his job, he was reading a psychology journal. It was, you know, a really, really boring article, which I've read, in this psychology journal where, you know, he's just kind of paging through, essentially looking for story ideas. And he sees, you know, buried in a bunch of dross, he sees what he recognizes as gold. There's this article that's basically

saying, hey, IQ, that thing that for the past 50 years everyone has thought of as being the most important thing in a person's life and future success, actually, no, it's not. And he saw this and he's like, oh my God, this is really profound. But no one was ever going to hear about it if it stayed in the pages of this boring psychology journal. So as a journalist, he starts writing about it, gets a book contract, writes a book about it, becomes a bestseller. Literally, it's on the bestseller list for like five years. Changed the way that the culture thought about things. And for me, hearing that story, I thought, you know what? Who does that now? Who actually has the time now to sit back and read a journal

article? I mean, everybody's reading tweets or BuzzFeed listicles on their phones. They're not reading articles. And it goes back to something that David Allen told me when I interviewed him, which is you don't need time for a great idea. I mean, literally, you can have a great idea in 30 seconds. What you need is space. You need mental space to have a great idea. And I think that if there's a drum that I want to beat here or a message to get across, it's that we need to create more white space in our lives so that we are better equipped to let our minds wander and to be able to make the kind of fruitful connections that Daniel Goleman did or that David Allen did in coming up with their breakthrough ideas. in coming up with their breakthrough ideas. That's a powerful thought. And what do you recommend people do to create that white space?

What are some things they can do on a daily basis or monthly or whatever it may be? Well, they don't have to be complicated. Some people are increasingly – you see articles that they're taking a digital Sabbath or something, so they have 24 hours where they're not looking at their phones or whatever. If you want to do that and you can do that, that's great. But you don't even have to go that extreme. I mean, literally, this is something along the lines of, during dinner, turn off your phone. Or is there a way that you can get into your schedule a short walk every day? Psychology research actually has determined that a 30-minute walk per day is the psychological equivalent, in terms of its benefit, of a $30,000 raise. What? Really?

Yes. So if you would, all listeners, if you would like to give yourself a $30,000 raise, take a walk every day and you know, not a walk looking at your phone, but an actual walk, and you're going to be happier. You're going to feel better. And you are probably going to be able to come up with a lot better, more fruitful connections in your life as your mind has the freedom to be able to range around things. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely speak into that because, you know, some days I'll be, I feel like I'm on my phone constantly all day, whether it's checking something or on the phone, calling someone back or whatever it may be, looking something up, researching,

and it can be exhausting. But it's those days where I have a better balance and I put my phone in the other room and I allow myself to relax or just to say, focus on tasks and not get distracted with my phone that I feel more productive and more creative throughout the day. So I can definitely speak into that. And I'm sure a lot of people are nodding right now as they hear this because they can experience, they experienced that as well. Very cool. Well, I want to, I want to wrap things up here in a second. I want to make sure that everyone, I'll tell you guys where to go here in a minute to get the book on my site,

but you can also go to bookstores and Amazon and Barnes and Noble and get Stand Out, How to Find Your Breakthrough Idea and Build a Following Around It by Dori Clark. A couple questions left for you that I've been asking people recently. One is, what are you most grateful for? I'm curious about that first. Well, I would say, Lewis, that right now I'm actually most grateful. You came to one of my author dinners earlier this year. I moved to New York last summer and I had had, I'd lived for Boston. I lived for like 20 years in Boston since I finished graduate school. And I came to New York because I really wanted a change in my life. And I wasn't sure how it was going to go. I, you know, whether I could make friends

or find a new community, it was kind of a big existential leap to do that. And one of the ways that I decided to take the reins and try to make my own community was by starting this monthly author dinner series. And it's actually become one of the nicest things in my life. been so great in terms of introducing me to interesting and cool people, enabling them to make connections amongst themselves. I know you were gracious enough to have Peter Bregman, who was also at the dinner on your show a couple months ago, which was a great episode. And so I really feel like that's been personally and professionally really fruitful. Very cool. I love it. Yeah. And I think it's always valuable to stand out when you can connect other people together and be that kind of champion of the network for people. That's always a great way to get started. If you're not sure what you can do to stand out, you can always connect other people and support them in standing out. And that in a way will support you. So I love that. Here's a question I've been

asking people, uh, two questions left for you. One is it's the end of the end of your time. Time is almost up for you, you know, in a hundred years and all the books you've written many books by this point in article, thousands of articles, but somehow they all get deleted and erased and the books go away. And now you have, uh, it's your last couple hours and you have a pen and paper in front of you and you get to write three things. And it's the three truths you've learned about life that you get to share. And this is the only thing that people will get to read about you that you create, uh, for the rest of time. Now, what would you write down that comes up for you right now as the three truths that you know about life? Yeah, I would say, Lewis, number one is you have

to take control of your narrative. You have to tell your own story because if you leave it to other people, they're going to get it wrong. You have to do it. The second one that I would say is that you need to take the lead on building the relationships you want, whether that is inviting people to a dinner or improving your marriage. You can't wait for other people to sit back. Uh, you know, you, you can't sit back and wait for other people to do it. You need to be the agent of that change. And the third thing that I would say is, um, that, um, that people should adopt pets. I always like to, to talk about that. I'm really big on animals,

and I think that they add so much to everybody's life. And if you have the opportunity to adopt a homeless pet, it's a nice thing for them, obviously, because you're saving them from very sad fates. But it's a great thing for you and can be one of the most meaningful relationships of your life. Wow. That's a great answer. I wasn't expecting that one. How many pets do you have then? Right at the moment, I have zero. So yeah, not practicing what I preach, but no, actually the reason that I moved to New York was I had a cat and I loved him so much. We were together for 17 years. I got him the month that I started graduate school and he died.

And I was actually so terribly sad when he died that I really felt like I couldn't live in my condo anymore. It was just too sad to be there without him. And so it really made me think about things and take stock of my life. And I thought, you know what, if I'm not going to live in this condo anymore, I probably shouldn't live in Boston anymore. Maybe this is like a clarion call for me to just do something different. And I thought, if I just keep doing the same thing as I was doing before, it's always going to be just like less than it would be like, Oh, it's the same thing, but not with my cat. And I thought, all right, the only answer to that is to do something

different and hopefully better. And that's the way that I can move forward. So that's why I don't have a, have a pet now, but I'm actually dating someone now who has a lot of pets. Wow, that's perfect. So I'm enjoying living vicariously. So no responsibility to all the reward. It's like being a grandma, yeah. Amazing. Okay, cool. I can definitely relate to that. I've been wanting a dog for a long time since I've been in LA, but it's, I just know myself that I'll just fall in love with it so much that I won't get anything done.

So it's kind of like, I need to learn how to be able to like balance that where I'm not staying in all day because I just want to hang out with my dog, you know, but I love animals as well. That's a good, it's a good tip. Well, before I ask the final question, I want to take a moment, Dory,

to acknowledge you for standing out in your own unique way. Because when I first met you, I didn't really know what to expect. And you were very loving, warm-hearted, and generous with your time. And you're a great listener. And so I want to acknowledge you for that. But I also, since I've started to learn more about you, I didn't know a lot of these things about you until I researched more, is that, man,

you've done some scary things in your life. In my opinion, I would be terrified to do all the things that you've done and you've achieved so much. So I want to acknowledge you for being committed to, I feel like you've stood out your entire life and being committed to not being afraid to move forward when scary situations come, not being afraid to move forward when scary situations come, when you're faced with a lot of different interesting challenges, you've moved forward and stood out in your own unique way. So I really value that and I appreciate you and thank you for coming on. I've got one more question for you, but I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge you there, Dori. So thanks for all that you do.

That's so kind of you, Lewis. I appreciate that. And you're especially gracious because I was just coming off of this terrible cold when I met you. And my eye was all messed up and I looked funny. And I was just like, you know, I couldn't even, my ears were so blocked because I was just off of a plane from Kazakhstan. I couldn't even hear people properly. And so I probably, well, I was not at my best, shall we say. But, you know, so it's so nice. I look forward to getting to hang out with you again when I am at my best. And you were so, so gracious to just come and have fun, you know,

at the dinner and share yourself. And every, you know, you know, multiple times a week, you're sharing yourself with your audience. And part of why I wanted to meet you is that I've just loved your podcast so much. I feel like it's so informative and you're such an insightful questioner. It's really a treat to get to be part of it. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. And I remember that we had a, it was like a blizzard was supposed to be a huge blizzard that day, but we weathered the storm. So. That's right. Well, you know what this question is coming. It's the last question and it's, what's your definition of greatness?

Yes. My definition of greatness, Lewis, is people being able to fulfill their potential. And I think that for me, that's, you know,, what they want to accomplish. Only they know what their potential actually is. And that's why I'm so committed to the idea of, through my books, hopefully helping people be able to tell their story and to show the world what they're capable of. Because I think a lot of people are written off too early, you know, just people look at them and they don't pay any attention and they just make these assumptions about what somebody can do and what they can't do. And I think for a lot of people, they know that there is potential that is untapped inside themselves. And I would like to see them be able to seize that and to get that recognized so that we can live in the kind of world we want to be in. Love that. Dori Clark, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it.

Lewis, thank you. Great to be here. There you have it, guys. Thank you again so much for joining on today's interview and episode with Dori Clark. To get all the information, the links, the resources, the book, make sure to check out lewishouse.com slash 166. Again, lewishouse.com slash 166. For those that have some friends in the business world that are struggling getting started that want to stand out in their own unique way, feel free to send them this interview and make sure to get them in front of this information because it's all about needing the tools and the information to help people succeed. And when you can help someone else succeed, they're going to help you

succeed in the long run. So make sure to share this episode with your friends, email them or post it on Facebook, Twitter, any other social media site that you love. Again, lewishouse.com slash 166. Again, big thank you to Dory. Thank you to everyone listening. I'm so in love with everyone that listens right now because you mean the world to me and you're the reason I keep doing this

because it gives me a platform to explore ideas and interview inspiring people and share them to the world. So without you, I would not be able to do this the way I do. So thank you guys so much. And I'm so excited for what's to come. Get ready. The School of Greatness podcast is going to blow up even more soon. More news on that here shortly. But you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. សូវាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប� Thank you. Bye.