The School of Greatness - 175 How to Practice and Understand Faith and Spirituality with Rob Bell

Episode Date: May 11, 2015

"Spirituality is awareness that life is a gift and how you respond matters." - Rob Bell If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video interview, and more at lewishowes.com/175.

This is episode number 175 with Rob Bell. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to the School of Greatness podcast and thank you so much for joining

me today. And if this is your first time ever at the School of Greatness podcast, then welcome and thank you so much. My name is Lewis Howes. And if a friend recommended you to listen to this podcast and it's your first time, then please do me a favor and give your friend a hug because I really appreciate them for letting you know about this show. And that's the way we've been growing so fast over the last couple of years.

And it allows me to bring on guests like my man, Rob Bellon, who Time Magazine named Rob on the list of the 100 most influential people in the world. Now, Rob has got an incredible story that he's going to be sharing here in a moment, but he is an author, a New York Times bestselling author, and a pastor, and he was the founder of one of the fastest growing churches in America, which was called Mars Hill Bible Church. And he talks about what it was like building a church from scratch, why he left the church, what he's doing now, and what he believes that faith and spirituality and religion actually

is. So we're going to be covering a lot of those topics today. I had an incredible conversation in my studio here in Los Angeles, and I'm very excited to introduce you to the one, the only, Mr. Rob Bell. Welcome, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast and video. If you're watching live, we've got Rob Bell on. How's it going, Rob? It's going great.

I'm very excited about this because I actually didn't know about you until someone reached out to me and said, you got to have Rob Bellon. Excellent. I love those stories. And then I looked on Wikipedia and it's like, he started the fastest growing church in the world. And it was Time Magazine named one of the top 100 most influential people. And I was like, what? Who is this guy? And how have I never heard of him? So I'm glad you're finally here in the studio. And I'm excited to dive into everything that you've ever done in your whole life. Let's do this. In under an hour. In under an hour. Yes, exactly.

It's great to be here. It's really great to be here. I'm excited, man. So tell me now, you started a church, right? Called Mars Hill. Yes. Yeah. And why did you start this? When did you start this? Man, that's a long story. Here are the highlights. Okay. You know, I grew up going to church.

And I remember, you know, it's often how you find out what you're supposed to do. And you look back on your life and you see the seeds really early on. But my parents would take us to church. And I remember sitting there and I would think, wait, this is about like what you're going to do with your life. This is about making the world a better place. This is about love and grace and forgiveness and suffering. And what do you do when you're going to do with your life. This is about making the world a better place. This is about love and grace and forgiveness and suffering and what do you do when you're betrayed. This is supposed to be about the big stuff that we all want to talk about and figure out. And yet, why is it so boring?

It is boring, right? How did they take something that should be – that we naturally – like when you're with your friends at the pub or you're with somebody at a beach chatting, you naturally gravitate towards things that matter. What you're wrestling with unresolved questions of abuse or suffering or victory or failure, whatever it is like we love to talk about the big stuff. Sure. But so I would sit there and I have memories of like 10, 12, 14 and think this should be riveting. Like it almost takes. not putting you to sleep. It almost takes more energy to make it boring than just to let the thing do its thing, like work on you.

And I come out of the Christian tradition, which has a roots in turning things upside down. I mean, it's an insurgent countercultural message that it's about living from your heart, not just accumulating stuff. Yeah. It's about forgiving and giving love to people, not just revenge and keeping violence in circulation. I mean, this is like good stuff. How did you – it should be better. So I was in a band in college.

What was it called? Ton Bundle. Because we had seen in a grocery store – we've been listening to a lot of early Talking Heads and Violent Femmes. And in a grocery store, we had seen like a sign that said 20 pound meat bundle or something. And like when you're with your mates in college, you think stuff is really funny. Sure, sure. And later you're like, we thought that was funny. So we started this band and we were writing songs and we had like fans, like we would go play these clubs and people would sing along. I was the lead singer. I'd never sung. But it was this thing where I would create, like I'd write a song that mattered to me. And then I would share the song.

And then a few gigs later, people would be singing the lyrics back. No way. And it was like, oh, this is really, I like this. And where was this? Chicago area. And we were underage, so we would literally sneak into a club, give the manager our demo, get a cassette demo. Wow. And then get out of there and then get a call and we'd take the gig.

And then we'd set up and go out and then we'd wait for time on them. We'd run on stage, play, and then get out of there before they realized we were underage. No way. And it was joy. And especially this feeling like gathering people together and then let's celebrate. We're here. We're breathing. We're alive.

We're in this together. So I was sort of the ringleader. And then the band broke up the senior year of college because everybody has to get jobs. Sure. And something happened in me i should go to seminary which my friends were like are you kidding me but it's like something that growing up like there's got to be some way to talk about these things that matter got connected with creating things and sharing them with people that mattered to me and watching other people connect and this

connection thing and so i went to semin seminary and that's school for, it's a school where you're trained to be a pastor. Like you study the Bible and you study theology and philosophy, still playing in a band. We actually, the band I was in in seminary played the Roxy. I just drove by the street. Yeah.

I sold out the Roxy one night. In college you did. In seminary, actually we were seminary students studying theology, and we had this band. And these guys were like really good players. Wow. And we opened for a band called Kara's Flowers, which right after that changed their name to Maroon 5. Shut up. And then the third band on the bill that night were the members of Oingo Boingo that were playing under a different name so wow

it was a good night that's pretty cool that's what i was doing and i was working with um high school students and the interesting thing about high school students is if they aren't engaged they just walk out right they they're they're not like adults where they have like a polite i feel like they have to stay you're boring me out of my mind but i guess i'll stay here because that's the cultural sort of appropriate thing to do. Sure. And with high school students, I started working with high school students. And it was like the format then was you'd give a sermon.

But for me, it was more like I want to create an experience where they think about what does it mean to live with passion? What does it mean to not engage in all the mudslinging that everybody does every day with their words? Sure. So I was studying in seminary how to give a sermon, but then I was somewhere between guerrilla theater and performance art. Sure, sure. So with kids, I'd set stuff on fire, and I was always, what's the metaphor? What's the image?

Can I hand something out? And they're sitting there the whole time going, why do I have an egg? And then at the end, they find out that it's an image of this or it's a metaphor for this or it's a way of thinking. So it was like endlessly, how can I engage them? I remember handing out chunks of clay and talking about how the softer the clay is, the more it can be molded, easier it is to mold it into something. And that when you're proud and arrogant, it's harder for something beautiful to be shaped out of your life.

But when you're soft, when you're flexible, when you're a bit broken in the good ways, now something interesting can come through you. So you learned how to be a great storyteller. Yeah, and a lot of it was a story a lot of it was storytelling a lot of it was um there are these universal truths about passion and endurance and courage and then there are the particulars of your life sure where you're born who your siblings are what your mom does for a job whatever it is and so part of it was helping kids like that. And then got a job in a church. And then at like 28, it was like, I got to start something. Wow.

And I talked to a dude, a dude offered me a building for a dollar a year, like a big warehouse building that he had built. So we just did it. You started right there. 28, a building. Was is in Michigan, right? This was in Michigan. West Michigan. Grand Rapids, Michigan. And then somebody rented a sign to put out front and I was like, no. And I made them take the sign away because I was like,

you gotta want to find us. Because I was like, and there can't be any advertising and there can't be any... Word of mouth. Like it has to be like an underground, you're here because you found us and you want to be any word of mouth like it has to be like an underground you're here because you found us and you want to be here wow and so at 28 you started it how many people were there the first sunday or first you know a lot of people think there were somewhere between one and two thousand people first day yeah i had been you'll notice the theme playing in a band around

that area. Sure. Okay. And my wife always says, you were planting a church the whole time you were playing in that band. So I was playing in clubs and stuff. And then during the day, I was a pastor. I'd wear a suit sometimes and then take it off and go get my guitar and amp and go do like a show with this sort of punk band I was playing in.

So there were all these people, I always say, who would love to be in the conversation. But if they went to a regular church, they'd be like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Right. So all those people sort of showed up. That's incredible. And there was literally, well, then a year and a half in, we'd outgrown it, the building. Shut up.

And the fire marshal starts coming to the services and posting people at the doors. So I know a dude who the first three times he came couldn't get in. Oh, my gosh. You got to get there early. Right, right. So it had that sort of beautiful, we're a part of something here. And it would literally be like a single mom would come up after a service and say, I got three kids. One of them is Down syndrome.

My husband's long gone. I can't pay rent. And two people standing over here would say, why don't you come with us afterwards? We'll get you some groceries. And then these people over here would say, we'll pitch in. Well, how about we take care of your rent? Like that kind of stuff was happening. Wow.

So actually part of the challenge was to not let the institution thing get in the way of the connections that were just organically happening. Yeah. And so then we outgrew. So then we were doing three services just to keep up with all the people coming, which was brute exhausting. Three services. And one Sunday.

One day. Yeah. I do the same. Like a 10, 12, two. Yeah. I do like a, I do the same sermon three times. Oh my gosh. That's hard.

Yeah. Yeah. It's physically like, it's like, like a sport same sermon three times. Oh my gosh, that's hard. Yeah, yeah. It's physically like a sport. I can understand. I mean, just giving one speech is a lot of work. Right, right. And this thing was give a sermon, service ends, and then people would come down front afterwards because they'd want to talk. And then you'd have like... Oh my goodness.

And the line might be, I'm thinking about killing myself. Could you help me? Second line. And the line might be, I'm thinking about killing myself. Could you help me? Second line, I'm interested in superlapsitarianism and how you seem to have referenced 15th century European philosophy, continental philosophy. But I have an issue with your third question might be, this is my kid. I just found out my kid's on heroin.

Can you help us? Like that's the sort of stuff. That's how I sort of cut my teeth. So what are you doing all week in between with all these questions that people had or all these issues that they were dealing with? Sometimes. Did you just meet with people constantly or what were you doing? You're always, yeah. And the problem is you burn out really fast. So I had to go on a long journey of realizing what does it mean to live sustainably.

Because you can't do that every week. Right. And even physiologically because your adrenaline is firing through the roof. And then it's gone. But at some point, if you don't learn some rhythms, like there's got to be some space where you turn off your cell phone. Sure. Or you're going to be cooked. So we start out growing the space and we start looking for a bigger space.

And true story, dude comes to us who hears and says, can I give you my mall? What? What? Where? So this is 2001. There was this mall 10 minutes from where we've been meeting that had, you know, that loser mall that gets more people for a baseball card show or an RV display than actually come to the stores. And dude says, my mall is, you know, it's down on all fours.

It's in bad shape. How about I give you the mall and then you- No. I give it to you and I get a write-off. And then I'll sell you the parking lot. Wow. And then those stores, we'll just sort of phase them out. So we went, so some of the leaders in our church went and looked at this mall.

And at one end was like the anchor stores. And their question was, we need a big room to meet in. And a guy had some construction background, walked in, and he just said, which of these walls are load-bearing? And the guy says, none of them. And that's when we knew you could actually take out the walls and just make a giant room. In the middle? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah so we literally took out the walls and made an acre room of a mall were there any stores left they eventually

left and then we turned the stores into like offices kids classroom goodness meeting room for aa that kind of thing you just paid him for the parking lot and then i think the parking lot was like a million dollars or something and then and then the building we just took over wow and then we did the room um in the round so we put the stage in the middle of the room and then it was like a series of concentric circles it It was 3,500 people would sit in- In a circle. Yeah, yeah. And then when they'd sing, everybody's- you're facing each other. Wow, that's powerful.

So the energy- Oh my goodness. And you were in the middle. Yeah, yeah. What was that like just feeling it from all- Overwhelming. I still, my years there, I have memories of people. And sometimes they'd be singing some old hymn that had some

like do it you know and some sort of gravitas and you'd be like almost falling on your knees almost yeah yeah yeah really powerful stuff yeah really really powerful stuff i i feel like i need like four hours of questions here so fire away but uh let, let's go into some of these that I have. Can you define for me spirituality? Yeah. I define spirituality as your awareness that your life is a gift that you have received breath that you, for some reason, God,

higher consciousness, being reality itself, the universe, whatever language you want to use for that. You have received this extraordinary gift and what you do with it, how you respond to it matters. And that your spirituality is your awareness that there's more to reality than just driving your car, paying the bills, meeting with your insurance agent, checking your inbox, that your life is actually animated by these

unseen realities hope joy peace longing desire to be a part of something bigger than yourself yeah um and that when we talk about life we're often talking about these unseen realities and you can't access them you you can't carry love in your pocket. Your sense of motivation isn't something that you can like put in a bucket. And yet, it's the thing that actually drives everything else. Right. And the problem is for many people in our culture, the moment you talk about spirituality, that immediately takes them into crazy religion. So now I got to go to war. Now I got to condemn these people. Now I got to judge it. No, no, no, no, no.

That's right and wrong. It's... It immediately takes them into a world. It's like, yeah, but I have a brain and I have a sense of civility and decency. And so I just begin with your life as a gift and you intuitively know that how you respond matters. And what's the difference between spirituality and religion then? Well, often religion gets a bad rap. Religions, and a lot of people will be

like i'm spiritual but i'm religious but i would simply say religion is the glue religion is practice it's routine it's ritual ideally religion is simply if you're an athlete you have to go to practice of course you have to order your day around what you're going to eat yeah you got to get some good sleep um and sometimes religion is is simply you regularly give a chunk of money you make away because it's good for your heart. Right. It's practice. It's the routines. It's the rituals that remind you that life is a gift and how you respond matters.

Ideally, that's the idea. Ideally, but why are so many religions have such a bad rep? Yeah. Well, I mean, in that oftentimes people will beat up on religion, which it totally deserves. But the problem is politics, education, to pick out one human manufactured institution and be like, look how screwed up religion is. Yeah. Well, millions and millions of people have been slaughtered by really mean dictators so humans tend to create institutions that get in the way of being human we're not now just talking about religion we're talking about humanity sure um the heart can go

south in all sorts of ways yeah it's interesting you know i grew up in a religion called christian science i don't know if you're familiar with christian science um and so i grew up in a religion called Christian science. I don't know if you're familiar with Christian science. Um, and so I grew up with this practice in this mindset, really the philosophy that I remember a lot of is it's all about mind over matter. And, uh, so I never took shots. I never had any medicine when I was sick. We would have, uh, spiritual practitioners support us through a healing and go through understanding what we call the truth and knowing what's really true about ourselves in the world and our spirituality. And we would pray about that. And, um, the religion would sometimes get a bad rap because of people want to be taking care of themselves in a, in a physical sense of the word.

Like they wouldn't, you know, treat themselves when they needed to. And then bad things would happen to them. Some, you know, some people died because they didn't go to the hospital because they were like, and you saw this at a young age. I saw it. I mean, I never saw anything, uh, really would happen to them. Some people died because they didn't go to the hospital because they were like... And you saw this at a young age. I saw it. I mean, I never saw anything really bad happen to anyone. I saw a lot of miracles actually. I saw a lot of people having incredible healings really fast

without any physical doctors or medicine or things like that. And I actually really appreciate the lessons I learned in the religion early on because it taught me to be mentally tough in a certain ways but also be vulnerable and

open and willing to feel miracles and to experience life through spiritually as opposed to in a material form. And then what happened? I actually went to a school for Christian science in high school, a private

boarding school. So I deepened my practice even more. What city? It was in St. Louis, Missouri. It was called Principia High School. Wow. And it was an incredible experience. It saved my life, literally, because I was just going down a wrong path.

And it was like the principles, the discipline, very disciplined school, great academics. Principles, the discipline, very disciplined school, great academics. But the religion, like I just after my 20s, in my 20s, I kind of just stopped going to church for a couple of reasons. One, I don't know if I really believe in religion myself. And maybe that's, you know, or maybe I was just questioning it. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was like open to questioning it. Like, because I feel like sometimes, like you said, that there like a bad rep or um i feel like it's judgmental like the idea of religion can sometimes come across as judgmental right and

we've got it and you don't right and if you're not with us you're going to hell right right you know you're right you're you're bad we're good and i don't like that feeling like like you said if it should be about all of us yeah yeah we're all in this community we're all in this together it's not like it's our way or everyone else is going to hell or something like that so i think i was just like you know what i love the philosophy of what i learned from the practice and i love the people the community but yeah and it's not like the religion i didn't feel like they were like so judgmental or this now they just don't like the concept of religion yeah as a generality yeah and and maybe that's an ignorant way of thinking for me. Maybe not.

No, I understand. But I remember just feeling like the principles of it were really powerful. And I still believe in those principles and try to follow those principles of mind over matter in general. Yeah, yeah. And loving everyone and not being judgmental, things like that. It's interesting. You were given a positive worldview. Yeah, very positive. loving everyone and not being judgmental, things like that. It's interesting. You were given a positive worldview.

Yeah, very positive. Early on. Yeah. Not like a life happens to you and I guess you're just sort of screwed. No, no. But you can control your thoughts. Yeah. You can act in the world.

You can do stuff. Yeah, I remember actually my father, I didn't understand this when I was a kid, is my father, I just had a birthday in March, turned 32. And my father, I never had a birthday in March turned 32. And my father, I never had a birthday party growing up because my father was like a hardcore Christian scientist and he would not allow us birthdays. He would not, he wouldn't,

he didn't want to celebrate our birthdays because not because he didn't want to celebrate us. He always celebrated us for being alive, but he didn't want us to be limited by time and by our age for creating what we want to do with our dreams and our life No way. Yeah, so it was just like when I was like seven I was like man I get no cake but my dad really had a deeper meaning behind it That was like don't let your age ever limit you from achieving your dreams And don't focus on your age of being too young to achieve something or too old to not do something

Yeah, and so now I really appreciate that. How old were you where that became no presence, but came like a good thing? Uh, I don't know. Probably like, you know, my teens or something when I was like,

I really understood it. And I was like, okay, cool. You know, when I started to like go after my dreams as an athlete and not be limited by my, my body or my experience,

things like that. So yeah, it was that. That's fantastic. Yeah, it was interesting. So why now did you – so you built up this big church, took over a mall, started speaking about it. You've been on all the talk shows and things like that about it. Why then did you leave that church, the thing that you created, and when did you leave it?

I left it at the end of 2011. And it was one of those things where I had a whole series of experiences that were like at some point just go, okay, I'm being told something here. Everything around me. That it was great. And this season has come to an end. And it's time to go do the next thing. And that sort of thing started brewing in the heart, like it's time to take the next leap. Wow.

So you kind of like plateaued at this certain level. It was that sense like this is good, this is great. Some of my best friends are here and yet I got to go try the next thing because something within me is going to die if I don't. And my wife Kristen and I, we started telling some friends, like, we have the sense like this chapter has come to an end, and it's been beautiful. Most people honestly do a divorce instead of a graduation. They stay too long. If the sitcom's funny for five seasons they do seven and then you're like you know what i mean yeah and so many people will finally leave that corporate job and say

three years ago i had a window and i didn't take it and i should have and we just had the sense leave now it's beautiful bless these people celebrate it and then overall i had this sense like i my job was to go talk to a larger wider culture than just people who are in church sure um and that that need that would be in the los angeles area it was like for kristen and i we were walking the dog one day and i was like we need to move to la don't we wow um and my friend carlton cues he made a show called lost um he and i had created a show so um we had this is the this is the scene out here this is what you need to be yeah we had sold this uh pilot to abc and all of a sudden i sort of met a bunch of people who were like hey what do you want to do and you're a pastor in grand rapids michigan and you start having these doors

start open like hey what do you want to do next? What do you have in mind? And at the same time, the people, our beloved friends who helped run the church said, hey, what do you want to do next? Wow. And it was one of those things, you know, when you're asked a question and there's the answer that you normally give, which keeps everything intact. What is the answer here that keeps everything running smoothly? And Chris and I had the sense like we're supposed to actually wrestle with this question, what do we want to do next?

And I had this sense like there are so many people who are spiritually starving. Not just in this church, but in the world. In the world, and that for many of them, the current forms and systems and religious packages that they've experienced there simply doesn't work um need new language need new images need new metaphors need new doors in and i needed to go do that new messengers so it's almost like that next step and as i've watched a lot of people go through this the next step has enough it has enough shape and and texture that you know kind of the direction to leap in but if you have too much you know what i mean it's too clear and

a lot of entrepreneurs know exactly what i'm talking about yeah yeah but if you have too clear too much clarity then that's not interesting right right right so it's got to be some uncertainty you got to know which way to jump off the cliff which clip you know what i mean and i had that perfect blend of like holy terror heart beating wow we got to be some uncertainty. You've got to know which way to jump off the cliff. Which cliff? You know what I mean? Yeah. And it had that perfect blend of like, holy terror, heart beating. Wow. We've got to go this direction. And we've got to take these next steps. And it had this like, dude, this could all blow apart.

Which to me, you know you're cooking. Wow. Right, right. When the thing could really blow up bad. Wow. So this was when you had 10 10 000 people coming to the service every week correct there were a lot of people yeah 10 000 or more or roughly yeah it was it was really a lot of people now was this a big controversy and where people like was a lot of

backlash or was everyone loving and understanding and say you know you created this now leave or did you um i people everybody in the congregation got an email on a Thursday saying, Rob and Kristen have the sense that there are new opportunities they need to pursue in the Los Angeles area, and this Sunday Rob will be explaining about it. And then when they're saying, what should we do Sunday? How should we do the service? Everybody, we were all like, don't even bother singing or doing a, just walk up there and talk.

Because whatever you do, the whole room's gonna be waiting okay so i literally just walked up onto the stage to tell these people that i dearly love that i'd be leaving and the place just explodes in a standing ovation shut up and they just cheered no way for like it like an eternity what What? Yeah. Were you expecting that? I had been through a lot with these people. They had surprised me. Wow. So after a while, I got used to these are really great people. And don't be surprised when they do really interesting things. Like we had had this tutoring program in an urban sort of unresourced school.

And this family from the suburbs with two girls as white as they get yeah had started going downtown and tutoring and there was a high school kid that they sort of came in contact with and fell in love with and there was an opportunity to adopt this kid and And the parents are like, should we adopt this African American kid from downtown and bring him out and give him what he needs? And the daughters literally said to the parents, either adopt this kid or stop taking us to that church where they teach us this is what you do in the world. So I just like had seen story after story like that of people going what does it mean to make a difference in the world and what does it mean to step outside of your comfort zone so i walk up there and they start cheering and there was like you're leaving us and

we it was almost like a this is really hard and yet we get it you you need and i didn't even say like and i'm leaving to go do X. I have this sense. And I just said to them, from the very beginning, I've always taught you that the central image was that Jesus has disciples. We're students. We're learning a way of being in the world. And you never know what's coming next. And so you just, you're up for it and um now the thing i've been telling you is like i'm in one of those spaces and i gotta go do this and this has been great and they yeah wow yeah it was really it was really

amazing it's really because those things can can go upside down so fast oh yeah easily um they they were amazing that's great um and then a friend of mine became the pastor. So he or she is... Literally Kent Dobson, beloved friend of mine. Wow. After probably, we'd probably been gone six months or nine months and they brought him and now he's there. He's still there running it.

And I constantly hear from people who are like, Kent is doing so great. That's awesome. It's like a beautiful story. So your legacy is continuing there. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. He's doing his thing. It's a good story. That's awesome. It's like a beautiful story. So your legacy is continuing there. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. He's doing his thing.

It's a good story. That's great. So what is it that you believe in? Overall? Yeah. The whole big picture? The whole big picture. What is like, what's the faith then?

I believe that there is something at work in the universe moving us forward. Do you have a name for this thing? Yeah. I mean, I call it God, but I know that language for a lot of people, the word God carries. I don't believe in like an angry God on a cloud with a long beard who's just waiting to judge you and kind of shows up every once in a while and maybe does something good or not. By the way, the Holocaust would have been nice. I believe there's something at work in human history. I believe there's something at work in human history there's a force of benign love

I call this force God I think that's what Jesus was talking about he kept talking about the kingdom of God a very mysterious there's something expanding it's moving there's something that when you give yourself to the well-being of other people

something deep within Lewis says this is good this is my path and when you see somebody else moving beyond themselves for the good and healing and repair of the world, something within you says, I see that thing, I feel that thing in me. And like we just had Easter Sunday, I take seriously the idea of resurrection, that the last word hasn't been spoken. That no matter how bad it is, no matter how much abuse, betrayal,

suffering you've been through, all sorts of stuff can happen in the middle of the chaos and darkness. I've seen too many people just get wrecked. And then a couple years later, they say, Rob, this thing that I went through, I wouldn't have wished upon my worst enemy. It was hell on earth. There was blood everywhere. And yet, like when you, I'm sure when you interview people and you talk about, tell me the key moments in your life. Tell me the moments that have really shaped you. Yeah. They rarely say stuff like, well, I went to Bahamas.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's their biggest adversity. They usually say, my dad got cancer. Yeah. My friend got hit by a car. I got fired, but in some strange way. And then they usually say, at least I'm sure in your experience, in my experience, they

say, at the time, it was like a nightmare. And now I find myself kind of, and then the word on the tip of their tongue that they don't know how to say is great, right? The counterintuitive impulse is, I'm grateful for it. But there's no way I can be grateful for the cancer. But that is actually, so my experience has just been, there is something something at work even in the darkest stuff. And even the first, the Bible begins with a poem, and it's a poem about water and chaos and darkness, and out of it something beautiful and diverse and unexpected comes, which is my observation of how the world often works.

Oh, man. Yeah. So I believe in that stuff. I'm a believer. There's so many questions about this. Yes. It's insane. It should raise a bunch of questions well i know there's lots of someone i told me the other day about uh their favorite book on you know god and like the questions i have is called god calling i've never read that one have you read that god calling i heard it's supposed to be really good one that kind of answers all the questions that a lot of people

have about like why do bad things happen to good people? Yeah, you can answer that question. Well done, because that's a... You don't have the answer, right? I actually think serious faith that's intellectually honest has to be straight up about the darkness and suffering in the world. There's some pain there aren't answers for. And in my experience, a lot of religion, especially a lot of christian

jesus-y stuff charges in with this verse and this theological idea give an answer and try to give the whole thing nice neat clean um and i i whatever's going on it works in the middle of the mess um and that any sort of faith that's going to have anything to say in 2015, you've got to leave a giant gaping hole for the mystery. And that's not a cop-out. That's at the heart of any sort of authentic worldview. So you don't always give a clear answer for people when they have questions for you about like why it works in the world or why yeah actually all all suffering like why'd the car go off the road why'd my daughter get

that disease um i don't know and anybody who does tell you why with certainty i would probably be really suspicious of i was doing i was doing this q a and miami and a woman raises her hand and says what do you say to somebody whose young daughter just died of a mysterious illness that only a few people get? And this woman starts crying. And there's like a big crowd and they're handing a mic. What I love is a big crowd in a public place and they hand the mic to the crowd and anybody can ask anything they want. It's so awesome. This woman says, what do you say to me? Because I just lost my daughter. And I said, first off, in the ancient wisdom tradition, some suffering, there are no words. There's silence. So first off, I would just begin with anybody who does give you nice clear-cut answers for why your daughter died.

I don't know. Secondly, I do know this. At some point down the road, you're going to meet up with a woman who's also lost her young daughter. And you're going to look her in the eyes and you're going to say, me too. And in that moment that you'll be standing on some holy ground. And here's what happens. I just got the chills. Because solidarity is divine.

When somebody stands with you, the woman standing next to her starts gushing. Shut up. Don't even tell me. Yes. This is the guy. And says, my young daughter is really sick and they've given her only a little bit of time to live. And this woman turns to her and, yeah, that's it.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think? I don't even need to finish this it's just ending in a moment of silence um man uh what do you oh this is what i've asked you do you take the you read the bible then right sure and do you take the inspired word or the literal word of the bible i read it literally does that mean? I read it as the literature that it is. So I begin with, if that's a poem, read it like a poem. If that's a letter, then ask yourself,

who's writing to who? What was happening in the world at that time? Are there economic, political things at play that would help this make more sense? So I always begin with, it's real people in real places at real times. Yeah. Then I always ask the question, why did people find this important to record? Because some people say, why did God do this? Wait, it was written by real people. Right. So as the great theologian Bruce Springsteen said, whatever we know about the divine begins with the human. So I'm fine with words like inspired, but to get there, you have to start

with why did these people tell these stories? Thousands of years ago. Yeah. What were they wrestling with? So for example, the Babylonians had a creation story. They had an explanation of what we're doing here. And the Babylonian creation story, and they were like the big dudes on the block. They were like the global military superpower of their day. The Babylonians had this story called the Enuma Elish, which was their explanation. The god Marduk was in battle with the goddess Tiamat. He crushes her. He pulls apart her carcass, and with the two halves of her carcass, makes the heaven and the earth. So you ask a normal dude in the street 5,000 years ago in ancient Babylon, which was the Tokyo,

the London, the LA of its day, what are we doing here? in ancient Babylon, which was the Tokyo, the London, the LA of its day. Right. What are we doing here? He'd say, there was a great battle between the gods, and out of this carnage and destruction came this world. Well, that doesn't make – it kind of makes sense then that if that's your animating story, you're going to go around crushing other people.

Right. So, this group of Jewish folks ends up in exile in Babylon, and they're in danger of losing their culture, but they have these oral traditions they've been telling, and one of them is a poem. And the poem begins, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And in this poem, this God loves to create. This God loves diversity. This God makes stuff and says, that's good. God makes more stuff. That's good.

That's good. That's good. It's a poem, and the engine of the poem is joy it's it's overflowing creativity let's make more stuff and then this god makes stuff that makes even more stuff so what's really interesting to me is it's an ancient primitive we would say barbaric book and yet the first poem of the bible raises this question is the engine of the universe carnage and destruction, or is it overflowing creative joy? And that's a pretty compelling question for 2015. Yeah.

And when there's corporate greed in Wall Street, and when there's a nuclear arms race, and when there's environmental destruction, but then when there's also people feeding the homeless and people helping empower people to live lives of freedom, it's almost like they're – which one is the better engine? So I always begin, don't fall prey to this idea that this ancient book doesn't have some really provocative, interesting questions that have always been the human questions. Right, right. So it might be a little – like Shakespeare, it might be a little unfamiliar at first, but you go in there and you find all sorts of interesting stuff. That's cool. I like that.

And you compared, I think it was in a book that you wrote, that you compared God to an Oldsmobile. Is that right? Yes. Is that a book you wrote it in? I grew up in Lansing, Michigan, which was like where Oldsmobiles were made. I had an Oldsmobile, 1989. What did you have? A Cutlass, a Delta 88, a 98.

98. I think that's what it was. Oh, that's... My dad gave it to me for high school graduation. It was his car that he handed out to me after he got a Denali or something. That vehicle. It was nice. So smooth, man. It was like a Cadillac.

Smooth. My brother-in-law always says you could palm those things. Yeah. On the wheel. Oh, man. The steering wheel's where it's at. I now have a 1991 Cadillac Eldorado.

That you like totally. No, my mentor's mentor passed away. He had it since 1991 and it's got 50,000 miles on it. No way. Yeah, it's like mint condition. Like Southern California. Yeah. I get offers for it all the time. People just leave notes on it when I park it.

Do they really? Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, so when I grew up, like Thanksgiving, all the uncles will go out in the garage and look at whoever has the new Oldsmobile. Right. But then they shut the factory down. They're not making any Oldsmobiles anymore. I know, it's too bad. No one's like, if you see my new... I love Oldsmobile. If you see my new Alero, that's just not happening. You know what I mean?

So actually in that book, what I was just asking the question, for many people, God's a bit like Oldsmobile. Like, yeah, that worked for me when I was 13. Right. But Oldsmobile couldn't survive in the modern world. No. And so one of my books is just simply asking the question, can this idea survive? And the truth is some ideas about God have to die. They can't keep up.

And so you have to let go of that conception. Yeah. And for a lot of people, they were handed a way of seeing things, and it doesn't work anymore. So you have to be honest about that. Do you feel like God's making a comeback then? That's a great question. Don't call it a comeback.

You know, I've been here for like thousands of years. We, as human beings, will always be asking about ultimate reality. We'll always be asking what's driving the thing. Are we alone? So there'll always be a comeback. There'll always be some oppressive view that, I mean, even within the Bible, there's an evolution within the Bible of how people understand the divine. Yeah. And that's the really interesting thing about the Bible is people often see, well, that's the thing holding us back.

No, that's a beautiful record of what evolving human consciousness looks like. So we'll always have, and right now you have, we're living in an expanding universe. Yeah. Like it's an omnicentric reality. Every living in an expanding universe yeah like it's an omni-centric reality every point is an expanding center if your god isn't as big as your science you're in trouble that's true so you have lots of people right now going wait wait we've learned some things about biology and cosmology and if your god can't speak to this it's not gonna work right let's just be honest about it now. That's true.

Now, I feel like religion and spirituality and God is coming into the media a lot more. You're doing a lot of this, but I see – I think I saw on the Today Show last week that like Hillsong was doing a performance or – I forget the guy's name, the pastor there. Oh, yeah. Like a big church. Yeah, a big church is like on the Today Show and it's like more and more in the media is that just me seeing that or is that happening is this movement that the media is why i think that's happening i think it's why you're seen especially in urban areas is if you live in a city you have a lot of concrete you have a lot of neon you're surrounded

by stuff we've made but then you go to the beach and you put your feet in the sand and you see a big wave and it produces a particular feeling within you you go out the canyon you go up on the mountain you go out in a glacier there's this wonder and awe that gets lost when you can buy tomatoes at three in the morning out of season right when you live in a world that humans have created and have controlled light dark when you can get food in or out of season when you live in a world of our making it can it makes you feel big but big can get a little boring yeah you know what i mean yeah and then there is that thing that happens when you bump up against that which is way larger than yourself my wife and i love i try to surf every day i love the ocean but we stand up

paddle and a couple months ago we're out in the ocean and we'd gone way out and a whale goes under shut up her board surfaces between us how big of a whale big blue big like big like like i don't know like scary like like trailer park big mobile home big in between both of you it goes we, we're somewhat, I don't know how far apart we are. 20 yards away. It goes under her surfaces between us and then goes under me. And I've had this happen. I've been out a fair bit with whales. And every time it happens, what's so interesting is there are things that are terrifying.

And then there are things in life that are good. But what's interesting is how rarely as human beings we experience something terrifying that's good. That creates almost like a, it's not a fear, but it's like a humbling reverence. You know that feeling when you're like, whoa. It humbles you, but in a really-conditioned, heated, microwaved, neon, encapsulated world cut off from wonder and awe. And I'm sure you've seen this. People, they climb the ladder. They won.

They have a big salary, a nice car. And yet that electric sense that I am but one small instrument isn't there. It's like you conquered, but in the process you lost something that's actually the thing you wanted. And so perhaps what you are seeing is simply, even if it's crazy, even if it's like you hear that religious person talking you're like okay that's just nuts still perhaps what they're appealing to is somewhere in here is this sense um the great abraham joshua heschel who marched with martin luther king he said i didn't ask for success i asked for wonder and i think that's what a lot of people are like i did the success thing but i'd i'd love some wonder do you think that's what everyone wants at the end of the day um the

japanese have this word a key guy it's that which gets you up in the morning and they have this this sort of cultural sense you gotta have an aki guy you gotta have something to get you up in the morning. I always say success is what can I get and craft, working a craft is can you believe I get to do this? Because I know just from meeting you, you have a sense of like I can't believe I get to do this. It's amazing. Yeah, and you're essentially trying to share that with others. I know the success thing is attractive, but here's the thing I actually want to give you is I want to give you this gift where you could wake up in the morning and go, can you believe I get to do this? Yeah, right? Yeah.

That's cool. So what would you say is your mission now? In this state of your life? You know, I wrote on your wall over there, I want to wake people up to the miracle that is your life. That's at the heart of spirituality. Jesus used this great Hebrew word teshuva, which means to return. You have a path. You have a true path that is the gift of God to you. You have a destiny. You have something you're here to do. And oftentimes we wander off the path. Return. Come on home.

Yeah. And that's not like a beat yourself up shame thing that's a joy thing like i think a lot of people they got they got the right internship they got the right job they're living in a good zip code yep and yet at some deep level they wandered off into the deep weeds um and that's why you see people take pay cuts that's why you see people go work for an ngo that's you know what i mean is they realize that's why you see people take pay cuts. That's why you see people go work for an NGO. That's, you know what I mean? Is they realize that's why they leave the monster thing and start a thing in their garage

is it's this ancient idea of Teshuva return. Like there's something I'm supposed to be doing. And I was handed a playbook, which always says bigger is better. And yet something within me says, no wonder is better. Joy is better. Sacrifice is better and yet something within me says no wonder is better joy is better sacrifice is better yeah service is better yeah living beyond yourself that's better there's a couple things to talk about love it man gosh we're gonna have to have we come back on like 10 times let's do it um a few questions left for you. Got it. What are you most grateful for recently? My kids, because they tell the truth. We have 16 and 14-year-old boys and 5-year-old girl.

And they just say exactly what's up. Like, Dad, that makes no sense. Hey, this is really fun. They live with a certain ruthless, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling, this is what that meant to me. And I just feel like, you know, everyone's your teacher, but my kids, they keep me so, like, and with them, the thing they don't ask for but they do ask for,

they just want you as the dad and mom to be present. Yeah, that's right. You don't need to, like, balance chainsaws on your head. Like, you don't need to juggle fire. You don't need to, you know what I mean? You don't need to do backflips. Just be here. Yeah, of course.

Because there's always that thing. Like, I got one more email on my phone in my pocket. And for them, it's like, can we do this puzzle? Yeah, can we just hang? Can we just make this puzzle? And my and for them it's like, can we do this puzzle? Yeah. Can we just hang? We just make this puzzle. And my one son, it's sports.

My other son, it's music. Please listen to the clash. Um, yeah, I'm really grateful for that. That's cool. Uh,

you've written, I think 13 books, right? Uh, no, no. Oh man, man,

sweet. Yeah. Let's eight, maybe something like that. A bunch of books cut in half. You're probably gonna write a bunch more. Uh, let's say it's the end of, uh, 100 years from now however long you last and uh you are

only allowed to leave three books behind that to your kids to the world and all of you you can't leave your books behind so you only get to leave three books behind that kind of the message that you want to leave for the world through these three books what would those three books be that have either inspired you or you think would be a great message for the world to serve them holy cow um there's a philosopher from usc named dallas willard who wrote a book called the divine conspiracy okay um i would leave that one. And I got two more. Two more. There's a guy who wrote a book called Lamb, the Gospel According to Biff. Okay.

Which is just fantastic. And then I would leave, thirdly, I would leave the Bible because of all of the ways that it has shaped me and all the ways it's actually shaped civilization. Sure. And I would let them wrestle with that for the next thousand years. I like it. Okay. Now, it's your last day. This is really like morbid getting.

No, but it's your last day. You're going to die. It's your last day, 100 years from now. And you don't get to leave any books okay you get a piece of paper and a pen and everything you've ever written or ever said has been erased from time and deleted the internet's blown up and there's no more of your work all your books are gone okay theoretically got it you've got a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three truths that you know to be true about the world and life, what would those three truths be that you'd write down?

Okay, what would those, love wins, love wins would be the first one. Second one, everything is spiritual. There's depth to everything. And third, there's way more going on here. In every situation, every conversation, every action, there's way more going on here. In every situation, every conversation, every action, there's always more going on here. Never just a conversation. Never just an interaction. Never just a meal. There's more going on here. I like that one.

Okay. Yeah. I got one question left for you, but before I ask you that one, I want to ask what's going on with you now? What's next? You've got a tour happening. You want to talk about that for me? Yeah. In 2006, I did a tour like clubs and theaters around the country i think i did 25 american cities in 28 days and i had this giant white custom whiteboard made it's 24 feet across and

then i filled it in with like drawings and sketches and it was about quantum physics and hebrew spirituality and what it means to be fully present in your life. And I always thought I would love to do another. And then I've done a bunch of other tours. But I need to do, it's called Everything Spiritual. I need to do Everything Spiritual Part 2 someday. But I got to have an idea that's worth getting the family on a bus, going around the country. I need to figure out the next great whiteboard thing.

And a year ago, I i was like started to get it so this july i'm going to start a tour that'll go around the world for the next like six months on and off and where when does that start and it'll start the first opening nights will be at the regent theater in la uh june 25th 26th then july i think six we start san diego and it's like um phoenix texas all the way down to miami, then all the way up to New York City to the House of Blues in Boston, then across. So we'll do the whole country, probably 30 cities. And you buy a ticket, and it's me, and I come out, and I do like an hour and a half, two-hour, it's like a one-man lecture show, gig, sermon on steroids, and it's so much fun. one-man lecture show, gig, sermon on steroids, and it's so much fun.

And this one is about, you know, we're learning more and more from science that the universe is expanding. And that when you think about your own experience, your most joyful, satisfying moments are when you move beyond yourself. So what we're learning about our universe through science and the science of your soul there's a number of connections there and i haven't heard that many people make like a really beautiful sort of presentation or connection of how all this works and i think i got something i'm really figured out yet you have to if you're gonna go do a talk like 30 nights in a row you have to love

it has to be like i cannot wait for you to see this yeah Yeah. So I'm really, really, really excited about that. And then I'm working on the next book, which will come out early next year. And where can we get information on all this? RobL.com. Your ticket for all the dates and the books. All my stuff. The tour dates will be coming soon for the summer tour. And then I do events in Laguna.

I do a lot of events for leaders, for entrepreneurs on innovation and creativity and and creativity and all that. Yeah. Well, to go down there, check it out. Yes. And we go surfing, of course. There you go. Let's go. Very nice. Um, so we'll have that all linked up here in a second. I'll tell you guys where to go to get that. Uh, but robbell.com obviously. Um, final question before I ask it, I want to take a moment to acknowledge you, Rob, for the gift that you are in the world and, uh, for so many people that you're impacting and educating and inspiring along the way to reveal their gifts and give it away. I think I'm on message with that, that I want to maximize my gifts and my talents every day and expand always and always be open to learning. And I appreciate the work you do and the commitment. And I really acknowledge you for the calling you felt to leave and something that you created that was so powerful and so, so beautiful for the community you created. And

then leaving it, that takes a lot of courage to do. And I don't know if so many people could do that. It takes a lot of courage to, to leave something that you've built, that's your baby, that you feel that everyone is there depending on you, and you left to do something on a bigger scale. So I acknowledge you for everything you're up to, and I appreciate you for all that you're doing. Thank you. That's really meaningful.

Thank you. Final questions. What's your definition of greatness? When you leave the room, people have more hope than when you entered. Rob Bell, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. And there you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you enjoyed it,

make sure to go back to the show notes to get all of the links that we talked about here and covered and also see the full video interview with me and Rob in my LA studio. I think you're going to dig that as well. Please share this with your friends. It's lewishouse.com slash 175. Again, lewishouse.com slash 175. Go ahead and share it over on Facebook, on Twitter, on Google Plus. Let your friends know if they're interested in learning more about spirituality and religion

and faith and hearing this story because I think it's really valuable to get this message out there to open up different observations, different ideas and stories for people to learn about. Also, leave a comment over on the blog. Again, lewishouse.com slash 175 and let me know what you thought about this episode. What's the biggest takeaway you gained from this interview? And post that in the comment section below the interview. Again, thank you guys so much for coming on, for listening today. A big thank you to Rob for being on here. Make sure to check out his website, which we have linked up over on the site as well, and all of his other social media sites. And we've got some incredible guests coming here in the future. We've got a lot of people lined up, ready to go.

So I'm excited to release these. Again, we release these every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On Monday and Wednesday, it's the longer format interview. On Friday, it's 5-Minute Fridays, which a lot of you have been loving. So we keep creating that content for you guys. I'm super pumped for what's to come. Again, big thank you for any beginners, any newbies that came on here for the first time. I welcome you to the school of greatness community.

Make sure to check me out over online on Facebook and on Instagram and everywhere online. And I'm just very blessed and grateful you guys are here. So again, thank you guys so much. Big guests coming up soon. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.