The School of Greatness - 187 Create Powerful Habits That Make You Happy with Gretchen Rubin

Episode Date: June 10, 2015

"It doesn't matter what you're thinking. It matters what you're doing." - Gretchen Rubin If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at lewishowes.com/187.

This is episode number 187 with New York Times best-selling author Gretchen Rubin Welcome to the school of greatness My name is Lewis Howes former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur in each week We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Now today's episode is with the one and only Gretchen Rubin. And for those that don't know who she is, she's really taken off in the last half decade with her books and her blog.

She's a New York Times bestselling author of several books, including The Happiness Project and her newest, Better Than Before, Mastering the Habits of Our Everyday Lives. She is also a host of a very popular podcast that came out this year called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. And she's on there with her sister talking about similar topics that she covers in her books and her blog. She's an extremely popular blogger and has been described by the New York Times as the queen of the self-help memoir.

She's an incredible person. We had an amazing time on this interview. I'm very excited to introduce you to the one, the only Gretchen Rubin. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got a very special guest on today. Her name is Gretchen Rubin. How are you doing, Gretchen? I'm very happy to be talking to you today.

I'm happy that you're here. We have a number of mutual friends you're probably not aware of, but we have a number of mutual friends who always talk about you. And I've been wanting to get you on the show for a while, actually. And now you've got a new book out that gives me an excuse to get you on. So I'm very excited to talk about your new book. You're also a new podcaster, which you're joining the wonderful world of podcasts, which I'm excited about but nervous about as well because now I have a new competitor to stay in the rankings. And your audience is extremely passionate and connected.

So you're already doing incredibly well over there. So I want to talk about that. Make sure everyone goes and downloads and listens to a couple episodes of your podcast. It's called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Is that right? That's right. And you can get it over at her website, gretchenrubin.com slash podcast or iTunes and everywhere the podcasts are. And what are the podcasts specifically about? Obviously,

it's called Happier, but it's with you and your sister, correct? Yes. My sister is a TV writer who lives in LA. And so we talk about, we have a Try This at Home, because it's all about how to have more happiness, more good habits in your life. A Try This at Home, which is because it's all about how to have more happiness, more good habits in life. I try this at home, which is like a small, actionable thing you can do as part of your everyday life. We talk about the questions that help you know yourself better because it turns out that if you know yourself better, you can shape your life to get you so that you're happier and healthier and more productive. We talk about happiness, stumbling blocks, which are the things that get in your way when you're trying to be happier. that get in your way when you're trying to be happier. And we give ourselves demerits and gold stars for the things that we've done that have either tripped us up as we've been trying to be happier or helped us.

And because we're sisters, we don't really let each other get away with much. So really fun. That's cool. What are some of these questions that we can ask ourselves to discover who we are to be more happier? Well, the one that we just talked about most recently on happier was what did you do for fun when you were 10 years old? Because what you did for fun when you were 10 years old is often something that you would enjoy as an adult. And and but people sometimes lose track of the kinds of things they did for fun. So whether you like doing art project or you like cooking or you like going walking through the woods with your dog or you like going for fun. So whether you like doing art project, or you like cooking, or you like going, walking through the woods with your dog, or you like going for a bike

ride, or you like fishing. A lot of times as adults, we lose connection with those things. And so thinking about what you like to do when you're a kid often can remind you of the sort of thing that you like to do as an adult. Now, when people are really busy and overwhelmed and feeling so stressed, and they're not doing the things they loved when they were a kid because they feel like they have no time or they feel like their daily habits and rituals don't allow them the time or the structure to do that, what advice do you give to someone to get back into those things? Again, if they're 10, 12- hour work days, kids, there's no time for themselves. How do they create the time for themselves? Well, that's an excellent question. So in the book, I come up with 21 different strategies. I identify the 21 strategies that we can use to make or break our habits and use the same strategy so that you're making them or

breaking them. And these are the ones, and 21 might sound like a lot, but it's good because it means that all of us have a bunch from which to choose because some work better for some people and don't work at all for others. So, you know, you need to see the whole range. And one of the things, the strategy of scheduling is one of the strategies. It's one of the most familiar and really powerful strategies, which is if something's important to you, actually put it on your calendar because something that can be done at no time, I mean, at any time is often done at no time. And so you might say to yourself like, Oh, sometimes, Oh, it's Saturday. I'm going to go for a bike ride today. But then you never go because you never said, but if you said at 10 AM, I'm going to go for a bike ride, then you'd go. So by scheduling it, you make time for it.

Um, one of the things that I found, uh, was that I found was I divided the whole world into four categories. This is the four tendencies. And one thing that I've noticed is that for many people, and I call these people obligers, they readily meet outer expectations, but they have trouble meeting their own expectations for themselves. So like maybe they love to read, but they never make time for reading for themselves because that's just an inner expectation. That's just something they want to do for themselves. And they're too busy meeting outer expectations. So the secret, if you're like that, is to create outer expectations. So for example, a friend of mine who was like, I love to read, but I never make time to read. Why don't I make time to read? Well, she joined a book group where you were

really expected to read the book. And now she reads all the time because now she has this external accountability so for some people they need to find like take a class do something with a friend um you know find a way go for a walk with your dog a dog that's gonna you know like pee on the furniture if you don't go out i mean if you have some somebody that you're externally accountable then you can meet that thing even things that are fun for you. Was that one tendency or two tendencies? The obliger tendency. The obliger tendency. They readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet their expectations for themselves.

Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, just to back up on the scheduling thing, as a former athlete, I used to play professional football, and we had an itinerary every day. And the itinerary told us exactly every 10, 15 minutes what we were doing, how we were working out, what drills we were running. So I never had to think.

I just showed up to practice and then we knew what was happening next. Right. And I got sidetracked for a couple of years after playing, after I retired of not working out because I didn't have an itinerary and I never scheduled it. Now, and I can get easily caught up with just waking up and going right into work mode because I love it. And then it's 7 o'clock at night and I'm going out to dinner and then it's 9 o'clock

and I'm like, well, I'm not going to work out because I'm going to relax. So now I schedule it with a trainer five days a week in the morning and I have that time blocked off and I know exactly what I'm doing. And I just feel happier because I've completed something that I know makes me happier every single day as opposed to getting upset at myself for not doing it. Well, you've combined the strategy of scheduling with the strategy of accountability because you're also working out with a trainer. So there's somebody who's holding you to that. because you're also working out with a trainer. So there's somebody who's holding you to that. And a lot of times when people successfully change a challenging habit,

often they're using more than one strategy because it's very easy to use multiple strategies and that really helps to cement the habit in place. Yeah. What are some other powerful strategies? Well, one strategy that to me seems so obvious, I almost didn't even include it. It turns out like for a lot of people, it's like this huge revelation is the strategy of pairing which is when you you pair something that you really like with something that you don't like so for instance this comes up

all the time with like watching television and and and being on the treadmill or being on the stationary bike it's like if you want to watch game of thrones then the only way you get to watch game of thrones is if you're on the treadmill it's not a reward because it's like, if you want to watch Game of Thrones, then the only way you get to watch Game of Thrones is if you're on the treadmill. It's not a reward. Because it's that those two things only go together. Or you want to listen to the School of Greatness podcast. Well, you're only going to do that when you're out for a walk. If you're going for a walk, you can listen to it. Other than that, you can't have that you can't do that. And so it's a way to create a positive, you know, you're doing something that you really want to do and sort of carry it along with that is something that you less want to do. I mean, another very common one is monitoring. With anything, if we monitor it, even if we're not consciously trying to change, we tend to do a better job. So if you're trying to eat healthier, you keep a food journal. If you want to exercise more, you use a step counter. If you want to keep a budget, you, you know,

track your dollars and cents very closely. There's when we know what we're doing, we tend to do a better job. And so just monitoring something, um, is, is very powerful. Yeah. I mean, whenever I journal my, um, I mean, even my journal, my, my happiness or my gratitude throughout the day, I feel like I'm like I'm happier when I'm journaling what I'm grateful for that process, but also when I'm journaling my workouts and I see the progress, I definitely feel, you know, like I'm more committed, like I'm ready to go the next time because I can see the growth. And, uh, I don't know how powerful that is seeing the growth. I feel like it was really powerful for me. Um, very cool. So can we go into the other three

tendencies then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So can we go into the other three tendencies then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these tendencies have to do with how a person meets an expectation. An outer expectation, which is something like a work deadline or a request from a spouse or a traffic regulation. And an inner expectation, which is like your own New Year's resolution or your own desire to get back into exercise every day. So my tendency is the upholder tendency. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations alike. So they meet a work deadline. They keep a nearest resolution without much fuss. Next are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense, but they hate anything arbitrary or unfair or unjustified.

They need a lot of reasons for what they're doing. But once they make up, once they've decided that they want to do it, they can do it. So in a way, they make everything an inner expectation. The obligers we talked about, they readily meet outer expectations that struggle to meet their own expectations for themselves. And then rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way when they feel like it. They, uh, they, if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to do the opposite. Um, they don't even want to tell themselves what to do. Um, and, and in fact, if you, most people can kind of let one of these rings true for them pretty quickly. But if you,

if you want to take a quiz on my, on my site, Gretchen Rubin.com, there's a quiz that you can take that will help you figure out what your tendency is and tell you a little bit more about it. I got to take that quiz. I feel like I'm somewhere between a rebel and a questioner, but maybe I need to take the quiz and see what the truth is. If somebody asks or tells you to do something, how do you feel about it? Well, it depends because I hire coaches all the time to coach me on what's, you know, to help me get to the next level on things. So if they give me feedback and I believe in them and trust them, then I'm going to go a hundred percent in what they're doing. That's definitely not rubble.

Okay. But if it's not a coach, then I'll be, I'll, you know, I'll question all, everyone. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to trust in myself. And I do the opposite a lot of times of what people ask me to do. Or I'd say I go against what society is always all about or what I feel like the pressures of society. I go against that. Well, that could be a question or two. Okay.

Hiring a coach is definitely not something a rebel would do. Okay. Because they wouldn't even – they don't even – like if you – because if a coach said, oh, let's meet at 10 o'clock in the morning, they'd be like, I don't want to meet you at 10. I want to do something else. The very fact that we're supposed to meet at 10 is going to make me not show up at 10. So is that more of a questioner then? That's more a questioner or obliger. If you feel like you need to have the coach there to get you to follow through, that's obliger.

But if you feel like you're using a coach because you feel like they have expertise that you're drawing from, then that's more question. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Now for me, it's more about, I'm always looking for the greatest advantage to get to the next level of whatever I'm doing, you know, health relationships, business. And so I understand the importance of hiring an expert or hiring a coach who can, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

Uh, I don't really, nah, I i mean they don't really work for me i'm kind of i because i don't i mean i kind of like create my own resolutions whenever i feel like something's off and anytime in the you know i could do it right you know what i mean yeah your questioner because questioners are like why would i wait for january 1st that's an arbitrary i can start right now if i'm like it's not working for me okay that's a question or an upholder and you're it sounds like your question I can start right now if I'm like, it's not working for me. Okay. That's questioner and upholder. And you're, it sounds like you're a questioner. Okay. Okay. We got that figured out. We got that established. I don't need to take the quiz.

Right. Well, take the quiz and see if you get the, if you get the same answer. That's what I'm curious to know. But, but, but these obviously have a lot of implications for habits because it turns out that if you're an obliger, what you need is external accountability. If you're a questioner, what you need is a lot. And those are by far the biggest tendencies, questioner and obliger. And if you're a questioner, it's really about rationale. Like for you, it's like knowing that this coach is the person who's, you trust their judgment. They're going to give you the edge. Like you're, you sort of like, you endorse their authority to tell you what to do. You're going to, you've chosen to listen to them because you think they have a

special expertise that's useful to you. So you need to be convinced if somebody doesn't convince you, like if you walk into a doctor and you're like, Oh man, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Then you're not going to do what he tells you to do. Cause you're like, I reject that, you know? And that turns out to be really important. Like with healthcare professionals and teachers and all this, it's like, you've got to convince the questioner that this is the, this thing is worth doing. Um, because if they don't think it's like, you've got to convince the questioner that this is the thing is worth doing. Because if they don't think it's worth doing, they won't do it. Exactly. That's me. For sure. Very cool. Well, I'm curious, what is what's your definition of

a habit? Well, it's interesting, because a lot of times with habits, people focus on frequency or repetition or the familiarity of cues around behavior. But I really think that the key thing about habit is decision making or rather a lack of decision making. And something is a habit when it's a behavior that's an automatic pilot. We're not deciding whether to do something. We just do it. I don't decide to get up at six o'clock a.m. I don't decide to skip dessert. I don't decide to wear a seatbelt. Iclock a.m. I don't decide to skip dessert. I don't decide to wear a seatbelt. I just do those things. I don't, I don't debate them. I don't give myself a break. I don't give myself a reward. I don't use justifications to get out of it. It's just like, I, this is just, this is what I do. And that's why habits can be freeing and energizing because they get us out of the very

draining and difficult business of using a decision, decision-making, which is hard. And every time you make a decision, you have the opportunity to make the wrong decision and self-control, which is exhausting. And so anything that's a habit means we don't have to use decision-making. We don't have to use self-control because that's that behavior is on automatic. And can there, can we have too many habits throughout the day? Can we be on too much autopilot or is there never too many? Well, it's interesting because people definitely have very different attitudes towards habit and a different comfort level with how much habit they have. Like my tendency of holders, we really embrace habits. And I would say things like discipline brings freedom. Not everybody feels as positively about habits. And habits do have

very negative consequences. One is that they speed time. And we've all had the experience of like, kind of all of a sudden we're at work and we don't even remember driving there. And you're like, oh my gosh, did I even stop the red light? Or, you know, the first month at a job seems rich and slow and full. And then your fifth year at that same job feels like it goes by in a flash and you can barely remember it. So they have it speed time because the brain isn't processing information. When there's something novel and complex, then the brain slows down and time becomes rich. And most of us want time to feel rich. And then they also deaden experience. Now, sometimes deadening experience can be good. If there's something that makes you

anxious, if you make a habit of it, your anxious feelings will dissipate and deaden. And that can be good. But often we want pleasure from something. And as it becomes a habit, we no longer get much pleasure from it. So when I first had a cup of coffee every morning, it was like ecstasy. And now I'm just like, I don't even taste it. But if I don't get it, I'm frantic because I'm in the habit of having a cup of coffee first thing. So they do speed time, they do dead. And so you, you want to, they're a good servant and a bad master. You want to use habits in a way that's going to free you and energize you, but not so much that you become just like this mindless bureaucrat of your own life. What should the ratio be?

Oh, it just depends. At a day of using habits versus, you know, being open to making your own decisions. Well, it just depends. Depends. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think some people, it just depends what kind of person you are, what kind of life you have.

Would you say that, you know, it just depends. Yeah. Gotcha. How would you say your ratio is on an hour's day of using habits? I embrace habits. I love them. I would have more if I could. My life is pretty irregular and so it's hard for me to have as many habits as my sister said that I would have been a good monk. Because to me like the idea that you do everything exactly the same way every day sounds incredibly appealing. But I can't do that. So I but I have a lot of habits and I like that. And as I say, some people don't want a lot. They want fewer habits.

What are the habits that you have every day that are I've always been there or that are the most beneficial to you? Well, I get up every morning at 6 a.m work every day. Um, I don't eat carbs. I mean, like I'll eat nuts and a little cheese, but I'm basically one of these low carb fanatics that you read about. So I don't eat sugar, flour, rice, starchy vegetables, potatoes, all that stuff. Um, that's pretty, and I love that. I love, love, love that. Um, cause I have a sweet tooth and now I'm free from it. You know, I don't, I don't worry about sweets anymore. Um, and, uh, yeah, I work every day and I have a blog and a podcast. And so I'm very regular in terms of, um, keeping up to, you know, am I posting, am I, am I recording? It's, are these things happening regularly? Um, I kiss my husband.

I mean, some people think it's funny. I kiss my husband every morning and every night. Same thing with my kids give a warm hello and goodbye every time they come and go. And sometimes people feel like, well, it's inauthentic if you're making a habit of it. But my view is sort of like, well, it's better to do it as a habit than not to do it at all. And it turns out if you're kissing somebody, um, you tend to feel more tender and affectionate toward them than if you don't. Um, even if you're doing it out of habit. Um, so I got a million habits. Um, and what about working out? Is that a habit? Yeah, I work out. So every Friday I do a, like an extreme strength training thing. Um, once a week, once a week, I do a yoga class. And then a couple of times I do a cardio, I do like a cardio workout. And then once a week, I go on a long walk with a friend. And, and, but it was interesting,

because I've been traveling so much for better than before my book tour. And I really had to say to myself, my habit is to exercise every day. But during this period, I'm not going to be able to because it just isn't just get I was just looking at my schedule and the flights and the times and the speaking and everything. It just was like there were just big chunks when I wasn't going to be able to do it. And so I did what is you know, what I talk about in the book, which is during this period, I'm not able to do my usual habit. But when I get back, then I'm starting right away, like the minute I hit the ground back, I'm not going to be like, Oh, I'll wait till I get in the mood to go back to the gym. It's like, no, the first time, the first, you know, I go to, I do my strength training on Fridays. The first Friday I'm back, I'm back in that gym. You know, like it just picks up right where it left off.

What would you say is the one habit that gives you the most freedom in your daily life? Because I just don't worry about food. You know, I used to be a person. I had a really big sweet tooth. You know, it's always like, oh, can I have this? Should I have that? More or less now, later, you know, and now I just. Eliminate it completely.

It's just the whole. Yeah, it's just gone. When did you eliminate that? Or when did you have this habit? What did I what? When did you eliminate sweets and bad foods? Well, and I call this the strategy of the lightning bolt, which is this thing. And it is definitely where the people change their habits. And it's like an incredibly powerful, effortless way to change habits. But it's almost something

that happens to you. It's not something that you can induce, which is too bad, because it's a really easy way to change your habits. But the strategy of the lightning bolt is when you're hit with some new idea or some realization and all of a sudden your habits change. So I was on spring break March three years ago. And I read this book by Gary Taubes called Why We Get Fat, where he talks about basically insulin. My sister is a type one diabetic, so I've always been very interested in insulin ever since she was diagnosed. And I was just completely convinced. I was like, this explains everything that I've never understood about the science of eating and the patterns that I've observed in the people around me and in my own experience. This explains it all. I'm totally changing my eating habits overnight. And I did, I like, except for leafy

green vegetables, I eat the opposite of what I used to eat. And it was, I saw, I made, you know, great consequences in my own body. My father started doing it. He like lost all this weight, like all his blood work, you know, he's gotten so much better. He like his statins and his blood pressure medication were totally changed for the better. Um, and so, yeah, it's been three years. So you, do you ever get cheat on this at all?

Do you have like a cheat week, cheat day or nothing? No sugar. But I have to say, most people don't do it the way that I do it. Like I am pretty extreme. You're extreme. Uh,

I'm very, I'm, I'm pretty extreme on it. And for me, it's also part of the fun of it. Like to me, it's kind of like the bragging rights. Like,

no, I never, but for a lot of people, you know, like my father who does it, yeah, he, you know, like if we're in from out of town, he'll have dessert or he's on vacation, I'll have this, I'll have that. It's more about what does he do most days. But the thing is, you know, that's what works for him. And when you're talking about habit change, it's really like, what can you do indefinitely? It's not about like giving up sugar for Lent. It's not about exercising to train for the marathon. It's about how can I eat healthfully forever? How can I exercise forever? And so you

have to find what is the right balance for you. And you know, some people find, I just find it easier to have none. I'm an abstainer. That's the difference between abstainers and moderators and abstainers find it easier to have none. For me, that's what works. I'm not saying that's what would work for everyone. Um, but that's what I found worked for me. And, you know, and, and I've heard from a bunch of different people who do it all different ways. Because again, there is no magic one size fits all solution. It's we all have to kind of find the approach that works for us, given our circumstances or, you know, our aims, our nature. But I think sometimes people think like, oh, the secret is the 80-20 rule.

Eat healthy 80% of the time and treat yourself 20% of the time. And for me, that doesn't work. That's harder, actually, than just giving up something together. It's easier for me to have no Halloween candy than one piece of Halloween candy. If I have one piece, I'm going to have the whole bag.

But see, that's the thing. Somebody said to me, I ate 40 pieces of Halloween candy. If I have one piece, I'm going to have the whole bag. But see, that's the thing. Somebody said to me, it's like, I ate 40 pieces of Halloween candy. It's like, and you think I'm just saying that because like 40 is a big number. I'm saying like literally I counted and I ate bite-sized Snickers. But like you wouldn't sit down and eat eight Snickers bars, you know, but they're these little bite-sized. And so you think, oh, you just pop one in, pop one in. But you know, I was like, oh brother, I mean, I'm, I'm with you there.

I know exactly. I know exactly that. That's it's like once you're starting it's hard to stop but it's easier to say then but that's for me and again that's the distinction and the book i talk about the strategy of abstaining it's a strategy that works extremely well for some people but does not work for other people moderators do not do well using that strategy. So they, they need to be moderators. And so, but it just comes back to this idea. Well, whatever works for you is, is the right thing to do. There's no right way or wrong way. It's just whatever works for you. And what is the, you know, I've heard so many different theories and research about how long it takes to form a habit. Is there an actual day or time amount that it takes to form one or break one?

No, no, no. There's an, there's sort of an urban legend that it takes 21 days or 28 days. And there was a study done in a university of college London that said on average, it took 66 days. I saw that one. Yeah. But that doesn't make it, but that doesn't tell you anything. Cause what it means is that on average, some habits were faster and some habits were slower and some people got them faster and some people got them slower it's like saying that the best height for a human being is five foot seven i mean it's like according to what what like what do you want i mean it's sort of like whatever so the fact is mere repetition mere frequency there is no it is true that the more consistent you are especially at the beginning,

the more, the better chance you're going to have that that habit is going to solidify. But, you know, in the book, I try to show how there's a lot of different ways that we can think about habit formation that's going to help that habit kind of settle in and like get that concrete around it that's going to protect it. It's not just about sheer repetition. I think that can be a distraction for some people. Do you think it's harder to create a new habit or to break an old one? You know, it's the same strategies either way. It's the same strategies. And often a habit can be conceived of either way. Are you going to eat healthfully or, you know, stop eating fast food? Right, right.

To, you know, get more sleep or stop staying up, staying up so late, you know what I mean? A lot of times it just depends. And that's, that's another distinction. Some people are prevention focused and some people are promotion focused. And so even the way you frame a habit to yourself can make it seem more or less appealing. Um, that's another thing that I talk about. What do you think is the most critical components for, you know, deciding to create a new habit? You know, like you said, you just decided overnight, like I'm not having sugar anymore. But is there like a framework for, okay, here's how I'm going to set the stage. I'm not going to smoke anymore.

And here's the steps I need to do. Or is it just a decision? Well, you know, that's an excellent question. And I realize that my whole approach to both happiness and habits is very much on the concrete and the tangible. Because people get very caught up in things like, what is my decision? What's my motivation? Do I have enough self-esteem to put myself first? Willpower, yeah. Willpower.

What's my self-control? I need to boost my self-control. These things are all very abstract. They're in your head. Have you decided? I don't know if you've decided. I don't know. What does it take to decide? That's just in your head. It's happening. You have no access to it. What you can control is your behavior. This is concrete. Did you do it? Yes, you did. Did you do it? No, you didn't. That we know. I think the thing is to say, is not to try to work on your mental state, but to work on your behavior. And so if there's something that you want, you want to exercise more. Okay. So you go through all the strategies,

strategy monitoring, what are you going to monitor? Strategy of clarity. What exactly are you asking of yourself? Don't just exercise more. You've got to say, I'm going to get up at 7.30 AM and from 7.30 to 8 o'clock AM, I'm going to walk around my neighborhood with my dog. Okay. That's clear. Now I'm going to monitor it. Did I do this today? Yes, I did. I'm going to have somebody hold me accountable. I'm going to join an accountability group where they're going to say, hey, how is it going without walking? You've been walking every day. Maybe you're going to pair it. Oh, I'm going to listen to an excellent podcast while I do it, so it's fun for me. I'm going to make sure that I go to bed earlier. That's the strategy of foundation.

It's going to be easier for me to get up at 7 30 AM and go for a walk. If I go to sleep at 11 every night, instead of staying up until 3 AM watching, you know, Netflix the way I have been doing, you know, so there's, there's, there's all these different things that we can do to help increase the chances that we can make it. Or one is the strategy of the clean slate. This is the strategy that isn't often open to us, which is every time we go through a major transition, old habits are wiped clean and new habits can crowd in much more easily. So anytime you move or start a new job, switch schools, have a new relationship, that's a time when you can really

change your habits much more easily than you can at the time. And so you're like, okay, I'm moving to a new house. I've got a new job and there's a gym right across the street. I'm going to join that gym. I'm not going to save a little money by going to the gym five blocks away. I'm going to join the gym. When I start that new job, in the very first week of that job, I'm going to go to the gym before work every single morning so that I set my new habit into place.

What time do I get up? Well, I got to get up at 730 because I got to get to the gym before work. Okay. That's just, that's just the day. That's an easy, so there's a million different things to do. Um, when we think about it in a very strategic way. Um, cause a lot of times people are just like, Oh yeah, I totally want to do that. Yeah. Tomorrow I'm out. So it doesn't matter what I do today. If it's starting tomorrow, I'm going to so do that, you know, and then it's hard. It's hard. Yeah. You find it out. So it doesn't matter what I do today. If it's starting tomorrow, I'm going to so do that, you know? And then it's hard. It's hard. Yeah. You find it hard. So there's a lot.

So instead of focusing on your decision-making and your mental state focused on like, what are you actually going to do differently? And then it doesn't matter how you, what you're thinking. It just matters what you're doing. Right. Right. Wow. Okay. Now I'm curious because I firmly believe that we're all born in this world to be happy. That's like our basis is love and happiness is kind of where we come from. Now, do you believe that society, let's say, in America in general is mostly unhappy? Or would you say that it mostly is happy?

Well, it's interesting because when they've done research all around the world, most people say they're either pretty happy or very happy. So most people are pretty happy. Yeah. Okay, cool. But why did you decide to start this kind of movement and talking about happiness in the first place? Was it more for yourself or did you see that there was a lot of people who were unhappy? You know, when I started, it was all for myself. I was finishing up another book and I had this moment of sort of introspection when I was staring out the window of a bus. And I thought, well, what do I want anyway? I thought, well, I want to be happy. And I realized I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I was happier, or if I could be happier. And, and I thought, well, I should have a happiness project and really like do the research and figure out like, what are you supposed to do to be happy? And can I if I did

it, would I be happier? And so I just started it just for myself. I ran out the next day and got a giant stack of books from the library, I often will do research, just like tons of research on something just for myself. So that was a very familiar, but the subject was so rich and so fascinating. And I just kept, you know, wanting to go through more and more and more that finally it dawned on me. I was like, wow, this is, this could be a book. This isn't just something that I'm doing as a lark on the side. This should be my next big project. And so that's how I got the idea of doing the happiness project. And with the worldwide success of it now, do you and people saying that you changed their lives, and I'm sure you have millions of emails and messages from people coming up to you and say

that you've changed their lives from this information. After that, did you realize that like, wow, okay, there are actually a lot of people who aren't happy? Well, that's interesting. Because you know, when I wrote the book, one of the things that a lot of people sort of were like gently telling me might be a huge problem um was the fact that I wasn't coming from a place of deep unhappiness I was pretty happy when I started and one of the things that I wanted to do was to appreciate how happy I was I felt like I was often not feeling it as deeply as I should you know and sometimes it's only when we've lost something that we realize how happy we were. And I didn't want that to happen to me. And so I and I worried

that people who were very unhappy might find my book kind of flippant, you know, because it wasn't talking about deep unhappiness. But since then, I've heard from a lot of people who are pretty unhappy, or have gone through big happiness challenges. And they have found it helpful to think about things according to this framework. So I have heard from a lot of people who are unhappy. And then I've heard from a lot of people who are like, well, you know what? When I read this book, I wasn't sure that I should even bother you because I was pretty happy. And then I realized you were pretty happy, too.

So I think happiness is something that it's, it's sort of like, it's like money. It's good to think about money when you're worried about money. And it's good to think about money when you're not worried about money. Cause that's also a good time to be thinking about money. It's like, this is, it's for health. You want to think about health when you're not in good health, but when you're in good health, you also want to think about your health because you've still got to be doing stuff. That's going to protect that health. You don't want to take it for granted. And I feel like happiness is the same way. When we don't, we need to think about it. But then when we do have it, I think we need to think about it then as well. And so I think that the risk for most of us is not that we

overthink it, but that we just sort of in the turmoil of everyday life, we don't think about it. And we don't do the things that we could do to make ourselves as happy and healthy and as productive as we can be, given our circumstances. Yeah. And in your research, how does money play with happiness? Well, it's interesting. This is definitely one of the most complex and emotionally charged areas of happiness. And I would say that money can't buy happiness, but money can buy many things that contribute powerfully to happiness. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, it's easier to be in good health if you've got money to pay for a gym or to pay for doctor's visits or you know to buy

healthier healthier food um it's and you know and sometimes people there's a lot of people who say like well money money like you shouldn't buy things you should buy experiences because experiences are what make you happy but you know the line between experiences and things possessions is often kind of difficult to draw so like a dog is a dog a possession or an experience? Is a camera a possession or an experience? Is a book a possession or an experience? Is a set of knives, that means it's so much more fun to cook, a possession or an experience? And so sometimes I think we sort of want to say money doesn't matter. But the fact is, if it's spent wisely, if it's spent in ways that are going to take you closer to the things that

actually do bring happiness, like relationships, you know, if you have enough money to go to your friend's wedding and you have a ton of fun and you see all your old friends, well, that's going to add a lot to your happiness, but it's expensive to go to a wedding, you know, like you got to buy a present, you got to buy a ticket, you got to stay at a hotel, all that business. Um, and so, so sometimes, um, so, but, but like if you're buying cocaine, that's probably not gonna make you happier. So it's, it's really a mess. It's really a matter of using it wisely. Um, it's a, you know, like habits, uh, it's, it's a good servant and a bad master. So using money in the right way. And of course, the greatest luxury that money can buy is not to worry about money. You know, and so if you're worried about money, that's a big happiness challenge. You know, if you're worried about paying rent, if you're worried about paying for food, if you're worried about whether you're going to lose your job, that's really rough. And so money can buy that, that kind of sense of mind. Yeah. Sense of

security. And so knowing that you're going to be, you're saving for your retirement regularly so that you're not, you know, gripped with fear every time you think about getting older, you know? So I think it's a matter of being wise and thoughtful about how you spend your money. But if you're just like running out and like, you know, buying something that you don't even need and don't care about, well, that's not going to, that's not, that's not going to be,

um, a good thing. And of course, you know, spending money on other people, giving away to charity, like giving back to the institutions that have made a difference for you. Um,

helping other people enormously satisfying. And so there's, it's just, it's, it's, it's a tool. What would you think, what would you say is the number the number one um component of unhappiness for people oh that's an interesting question you know if you said like what is the key to happiness

there's a lot of ways you can answer that but one is relationships that people are happy when they have relationships and a big happiness challenge that I think is under discussed is loneliness. You know, it's people being lonely. That's a very, very big happiness challenge. And so you really want to do whatever you can to deepen and broaden your relationships. Another thing, another way to answer the question of what is the key to happiness is self-knowledge, because I really do believe that you can build a happy life only on the foundation of your own nature, your own experience, your own values. And so I think people are often unhappy when they've built a life that's not around their own nature and their own values or their own interests. And so

they have a job. Oh, I'm a doctor because both my parents were doctors, but I'm not interested in being a doctor. And so I feel totally unfulfilled by my work. Or I have a job where I feel like my work is meaningless. Like, Oh yeah, if you were a doctor, you'd be saving people's lives, but my job's pointless, you know, or, um, or I'm constantly trying to make myself different. Oh, everybody loves to go out to bars and drink with their friends. That's so fun. Right. Except I don't enjoy it. So I feel like I'm not having any fun. I'm not, I'm not doing anything that's fun for me or, you know, I, um, I'm exhausted all any fun. I'm not, I'm not doing anything that's fun for me or, you know, I am, I'm exhausted all the time because I don't, I don't make sure that I take care of my body. And so, um, I'm not, I'm not being, I'm not being true to like what I need to be healthy. Like, oh wow, my sister only needs five hours of sleep. I guess I can get by on five hours of sleep. No,

actually I need to have seven and a half hours of sleep. Um, so I think those are two things that come up a lot in unhappiness, having a life that doesn't reflect what's true about you. And, and having a life that doesn't have the kind of relationships that make you feel like you can get support and give support that make you feel like you're you belong and make you feel like you have people that you know, you can confide in that you're intimate with, you have long, you know,ide in, that you're intimate with. You have long, enduring bonds. Those are two big things that cause unhappiness. Would you say that money adds more happiness for people? Because I know a lot of people that have a lot of money that are actually even more stressed out with the money.

Really? Because I find that mostly people, and that's what the research shows, is that as people have more money, they tend to become happier. They become happier. They become happier. Gotcha. So I guess it's just understanding how to manage it and not how to feel stressed out about it with responsibility or people asking you for money or whatever it may be then. Yeah. Very cool. Okay.

Well, I've got a couple questions left for you before we wrap things up. And one of the questions I'm curious about is what are you most grateful for in your life recently? What am I most grateful for? Well, I'm so grateful for my home. You know, I was away on my book tour and I was away for like at one point I was away for 10 days, which is a long time for me to be away. I think it's the longest time I've been away at a stretch. I did get to see what I get to get to stay with my sister and her family in the middle. So I did have like a touchdown with family and it was a treat to get to see her.

She lives in Los Angeles, so I don't get to see her that much so that was great but it was a long time to do it from home and then like i was home for two days then i left again then i came back then i was then i immediately left the next day and so i just like what this morning i was just walking you know i got up to get i have two daughters and i was getting them up to go to school the way i always do back in my old habits my old you know the know, the habit of I'm going to get up at six and at 650, I wake them up and then I make breakfast. And then I walk my younger daughter to school and here's my husband. And I was just like, I there's nothing more precious to me than that ordinary day. I am just so glad to be back wearing my yoga pants and my running shoes and making my, you know, making breakfast and and everything is so dear to me.

So I'm very grateful. And I wrote a whole book, Happier at Home, which is all about the experience of home. So I thought a lot about the importance of home and the idea of being happy at home. There are very few universals in life, but almost everybody has an ideal of home. And I'm a real homebody, and so I love being home. I would very much love to be home. That's great. That's very cool.

What do you think is one thing that you don't talk about that much or that most people don't know about you that they might be surprised about? Oh, that's interesting, that I don't talk about you that they might be surprised about. Oh, that's interesting. Um, that I don't talk about that much. Um, or maybe never, maybe something, some of the people don't know about you that they'd be surprised about.

Hmm. What do I, have I not told people that they would be surprised about? Uh, I'm left-handed, but that's not so surprising. It's a pretty good chance. People are left-handed. Um, I'm left-handed, but that's not so surprising. There's a pretty good chance people are left-handed. I'm from Kansas City, Missouri.

I don't know if people know that or not. I'm here to talk about Kansas City. I love children's literature. I'm in three children's literature reading groups. These are all groups of adults. By the way, there are no children involved. We never talk about children. It's for adults who love children's literature. So I'm a children's literature fanatic in young adult literature. So those are some things that maybe people maybe don't know about me. What's, what's the thing you've done that you're most proud of?

Switch from being a lawyer to a writer, probably, which I did several many years ago. But I was, you know, I was I was very successful as a lawyer and coming out, you know, in law school and coming out of law school. I was editor chief of the law review at Yale Law School. I clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor. So I was really on the law track. And I realized that I really wanted to be a writer. And so I started over from with nothing. I had not written a clip in college for the college newspaper. I had not written a short story. I had to really start from the beginning. And it actually wasn't as hard as I would now looking back on it. I'm amazed at the time. I don't think I realized that I should have been more intimidated than I was. But that was good. That was good. And I mean, yeah, I wasn't fearless, but I was cautiously optimistic. There you go.

So that's where – I like it. Well, you've had a ton of success over the last number of years with all the books you've had coming out, and you've got millions of readers. I'm curious, with all this success and fame, what has been the biggest blessing that's come from that? And what's been the biggest challenge for you with all of the things that have come your way? Well, the biggest blessing I think is just the feeling that my book is bigger than I am. My, you know, that, that whether it's better than before, and I'm hearing from people who are changing a habit that they felt like they could never change, that's really important to them. a habit that they felt like they could never change that's really important to them or my books about happiness where you know that I've heard from a lot of people where it's clear that

you know and the book is meaningful not because of what I put in there but what they put in there you know what I mean it's their own what they bring to it that makes the book uh so powerful for them um and so that is a very great blessing. But I think that's also a very great challenge, because it has taken me a while to under like, it's hard to, it's hard to be the in real life person who represents that for for someone, you know, and that is hard sometimes to really know how to, like, it's such a big thing for them. to show like the intensity of that is, um, it's interesting, you know, it's interesting. And it's, it's, it's to, to know how to handle it was,

has taken me a while to just sort of how to, uh, acknowledge the power of what someone has gone through. Right. Um, and so it's, it's exciting. Um, but it's, it's new, it's different, you know what I mean? Now I've, now I've been experiencing it for many years, but it still feels kind of new. I have to say, yeah, it's still, it still feels big. Sure. Okay. What's the one thing that you haven't accomplished that you still want to accomplish? Oh, I don't know. That's an interesting question. thing that you haven't accomplished that you still want to accomplish? Oh, I don't know.

That's an interesting question. I'd have to ponder that. Okay. Well, email me later and let me know. Okay. Yeah. I've set the cover of a magazine. That was pretty cool.

I had never put that on my bucket list, but I'm glad I can cross that off my list, even though I never even thought to put it on my list. And I was a question on Jeopardy. Those are two things that I wanted. Oh, that's cool. I never knew that I wanted them until I had them. And I'm like, that's so awesome. That's really cool. There's maybe something like that.

I'm like, I want to be in a crossword puzzle or whatever. Sure. That's cool. Okay. Now, it's 100 years from now, and it's your last day, or however many more hundreds of years it takes if we can advance living longer. And for some strange reason, everything you've ever written has been deleted and erased. And your website's down forever.

The information is gone. You're on your deathbed, and you're looking at your family. You're having these great conversations and stories about how grateful you are. And they tell you, you know, everything's been deleted, but here's a pen and a piece of paper. And we want you to write down three truths, the three truths about what you know that's true in life from your own experience. And this is the three things that you get to leave behind to your family, your friends, to the world, because nothing else they're going to learn.

They're going to know about you. What would you write down or those three truths? Well, the first would be, be Gretchen because I, and everybody has to substitute their own name, of course, but it's this idea that you have to be,

you have to understand yourself, know yourself and be true to yourself. So that would be Gretchen. One is enjoy the process because if you can enjoy the process, then you enjoy life. And if you don't enjoy the process and you're just waiting for results, then you're, it all depends on how it turns out. And often things don't turn out the way we want. And if you enjoy the process then that's then that's not a bitter experience um because you enjoy the process and also sometimes we get so busy sort of crossing things off our to-do list that we lose sight of the fact that um this is this is the thing itself i wrote i did a little one minute video called the the days are long but the years are short about this kind of epiphany I had about that, which is like everything I've

ever written. I think that's the, uh, the thing that rings truest to people. So, um, if you want to watch that, that's called, uh, the years are short, um, dot com. Um, and what, what would the third thing be? Cause this is big. Three is three is not many 10. I can do 12. I can do, but three, Three is not many. 10 I can do, 12 I can do, but three. Oh, okay. One of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy. One of the best ways to make other people happy is to be happy yourself.

Ooh, I like that. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. I like those three. Before I ask the final question, I want to take a moment, Gretchen, to acknowledge you because I'm very grateful that I have the opportunity to connect with you and that you've created all the work that you've created in the world because you've inspired millions of people. You've helped people get happier. You've helped them form better habits,

which in return has made them treat people better. And I think a lot of the reason why we're here is to, like you said, make other people happier, but be happier ourselves. And I'm just so grateful for all the work you've done, for all the commitment that you've had to going through your own process and creating these great works of art, because really they're masterpieces in their own way. And I'm just very grateful and I acknowledge you for your commitment to your mission and your vision for helping people be happier. So thank you for that. Well, thank you so much. That's so nice to hear. Thank you. And my final question is what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is to be as happy, as healthy, and as productive as you can be, given your circumstances and your nature. Because if all of us lived up to everything that we can be, given our circumstances and our nature, then I think that we're living a great life. Gretchen Rubin, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. Great to talk to you. Gretchen Rubin, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. Great to talk to you There you have it guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode with Gretchen and make sure to check out her new book We will have everything linked up on our show notes over at lewishouse.com 187 again Make sure to go to lewishouse.com 187 to check out all the resources and information that we talked about today on today's interview And share this with your friends.

Get the word out about this. I loved connecting with Gretchen and want to make sure a lot of people hear this interview. So please share this with your friends over on Facebook and Twitter and social media and tag me over on Instagram, letting me know where you are listening to this episode in the world.

Thank you again so much, everyone, for listening. I really appreciate you all for all of your support. Thank you again so much, everyone, for listening. I really appreciate you all for all of your support. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. ស្រូវនប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ Outro Music