The School of Greatness - 231 How to Consciously End a Relationship in a Healthy Way with Katherine Woodward Thomas

Episode Date: September 23, 2015

"We're hardwired to bond with other people." - Katherine Woodward Thomas If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video and more at http://lewishowes.com/231

This is episode number 231 with best-selling author Catherine Woodward Thomas. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to this episode, a very special episode with a new friend of mine.

Her name is Catherine Woodward Thomas. And for those that don't know who she is, she's a life coach and licensed psychotherapist, one of three founding faculty of Evolving Wisdom, which was recently named by Inc. Magazine as the fastest growing online transformation educational company in America. Catherine has had the privilege of co-leading virtual learning communities that includes hundreds of thousands of students from all over the globe. She also wrote a bestselling book called Calling in the One, Seven Weeks to Attract the Love of Your Life, which became a bestseller within four months of publication and has since gone on to sell over 200,000 copies. She also has a new book coming out right now that's called Conscious Uncoupling,

which is the topic of this interview right now, all about, you know, we talk about how to call in the right one for your relationship, but what happens when the right one doesn't become the right one anymore, or you realize it's not a good fit, or you guys grow apart, and you realize that you can't be together anymore? How do you consciously uncouple? You know, it seems like most people go through really bad breakups. You never really hear of, oh, it was a great breakup. And Catherine talks about how to do it in a loving, conscious way. And we discussed this

throughout this entire interview. I think you're really going to like this. And if you have friends that are going through a breakup or that are thinking about it, that have been consoling in you with advice, make sure to send this to them over at lewishouse.com slash 231 so they can learn more about how to do this in a healthy, loving way. I'm very excited about this interview, so make sure to check it out and share it with your friends. Without further ado, let's go ahead and dive into this episode with the lovely, the graceful, the talented, Catherine Woodward Thomas. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest today.

Her name is Catherine Woodward Thomas. She's got a book called Conscious Uncoupling, and it's the five steps to living happily even after, which is a tricky little interesting subtitle you got there, which I'm really excited about diving into. And first off, thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for asking me. It's such an honor. It means a lot to me. This is probably a different topic than I cover most of the time. But for me, something that, you know, I've been in multiple relationships. And when I get in a relationship, I'm in a relationship. I'm like, I love deep.

And so when things shift and they're not working or I realize that I need time away or something happens and I know it's not going to be a good fit for the time being, it's a challenge. And no one ever teaches you how to get out of a relationship in a healthy, loving... It's astounding how few of us know how to do this. Yeah, you're the only one I know who knows how to do it.

I have seen the most high-level, advanced spiritual people make a total mess of the you know, the end of a relationship. Really? Yeah. We just don't know how to navigate it. I have a theory about it. I think that inside of our happily ever after myth, which kind of assumes that if the relationship ends before one or both people die, that it was a complete disaster and a complete failure of love. And so inside of that, we just never really like figured out, well, how can we bring conscious

completion to our intimate relationships or to really any relationships for that matter? I mean, why do people, and just so people listening know, you're a marriage family therapist, right? You've been doing this for 20, 30 years and you've been teaching hundreds of thousands of people around the world about, you know, relationship advice and all this good stuff. So you've got some great wisdom as a licensed therapist, but also with your own experiences. So I think that's where we learn the most from our own experiences because you're, you're divorced as well.

Yes. And you had to figure this out for yourself also. Well, and let me just say, I'm also the author of Calling in the One. The One, yes. Right? Which came out in 2004 and we just sold hundreds of thousands of copies. So you called in the one. So I called in the one and then after a decade, we decided to unmarry.

So it wasn't the one anymore. Well, he was, though, for that time. For that time. Okay. For that time. And this goes back to the happily ever after myth. Because, you know, when we decided to end our union, I mean, it wasn't, you know, an easy thing to do. And when we made the decision, you know, my prayer was like a little less than pious.

It was, you know, are you effing kidding me, God? Like, seriously? Right. I've got all these people who look to me for the answers and how to find love. And they really like open up to possibility in their lives after all sorts of things. And they learn the calling in the one technique and process, which has, you know, worked for many, many thousands of people. But then I'm going to get divorced.

So what's that message? And how do I even convey that message? So I know you love to talk in School of Greatness about failure a lot. So that was like a great crash and burn. In that moment, it could have really been a disaster. And you were the woman that was like, I'm calling the one. I'm teaching you all how to do it. And now I'm essentially failed at calling in the one.

Yeah. Well, and so you know what? I know enough to look at my own feelings and whatever's going on for me and to see it as reflective of what's going on for all of us. So I have kind of a deeply personal relationship, obviously, with my feelings as we all do. Sure. So I have kind of an, you know, I have a deeply personal relationship, obviously, with my feelings as we all do. But I also have an impersonal relationship with them because I'm really interested in the evolution of love in the world, you know, both for myself and our, but our collective capacity. Conscious love, yes. Yeah, conscious love, conscious relationships. So, and I'm committed to that.

So as I'm going through this, I'm going, well, you know, this is really common that when we go through the end of a relationship, we feel ashamed. Where does that come from? Why do we feel ashamed? Why do we feel ashamed? Like, why do we go to, oh, now I'm inferior to be single again. Or, you know, I was better when I was like, what, where is that coming from? So I actually started to research that happily ever aftermath. And I found out a lot of things about it that were really fascinating to me.

One is that it's only about 400 years old. Believe it or not, it was created in Venice, Italy. No way. Which, you know, us romantics, we're not surprised. That's funny. But it was created during a time when the lifespan was under 40, when half the children were dying before the age of 16. Really?

Which, you know, it's probably a good idea, a better idea to keep families together to give them the best possible chance at survival. And also there was a law at the time that these fairy tales were created that a noble person could not marry a commoner. And so people, if you were born into poverty, you were going to die into poverty. There was no hope of ever getting out of poverty. So the happily ever after myth was, was came as like an escapist fairy tale for people because it was right after the Renaissance. So people actually were literate, even though they had no money, they were literate and they loved the fairy tales in large part because of the upward mobility.

Okay. You know, it was like the, and, and also it happened in a far away distant land, you know, because it couldn't happen in Venice because there was a law against it. So, you know, it's kind of, but then it went to France and it kind of stuck and it almost like took over our world about what our aspiration for love should be.

And we're also kind of collectively in that trance that it actually occurs to us as a failure if we do not. But look, this is the reality. If you like, look at the statistics, the statistics are that the majority of us are going to have two to three major relationships in our lifetime, which also implies at least one or two major breakups as well. So it's no longer the norm to meet and marry one person. The one, like 21 when you're in college and then you're with them for the rest of your life.

Very unusual. I mean, it happens. Sure. You know, so, so I think, you know, like we, we update our computer programs and our child rearing practices and our diets and our exercise programs. I think we have to update our aspirations around love and we need to shift from the question of, you know, how we're going to value the union according to how long did it last and start to ask the question,

what did I learn and how have I expanded my capacity to love? It's so challenging when you're in the relationship and you love someone so much and they bring so much value to your life and they're so incredible, but something's not working or you can't give them what they want or they can't give you what you really want. And there's like this conflict where you can't figure it out and you've got to end it or you've got to evolve it, I guess. And, you know, how do we, first off, before you even go into that, because you've got

five steps to doing that. How do you call on the one? How do you know it's the one if you're going to end it at some point? That's the confusing thing. Well, I think, see, this is important for us to realize that we live in a very mobile society that values growth and evolution. Yes. Right. And in a way, America is kind of torn between these two ideals of the stability of family

and commitment and devotion. And most of us really believe in that. 90% of us are going to get married at some point in our lifetimes. But we also are a country that was kind of founded upon the ideal of the pursuit of happiness. And we are a creative bunch and we love change and we love evolution and we love, you know, personal growth and development. And those two things are not always the best bedfellows. So in a, you know, perfect world, um, we all grow together, but different people have different callings and different people have different aspirations to

how much they're willing to grow and what that and how they're going to navigate the tension between just wanting to be comfortable in life and kind of set in life or how much you're going to be risk-oriented and keep striving to become your best self. And I think here in the school of greatness, I can pretty much assume that most of us are the latter. Yes. And so it is going to create a lack of stability. It's going to do two things. It's going to create, you know, it's going to create a lack of stability that we are going to, and it's also going to inspire us to grow, right? Because we don't want to lose each other. We want to learn how to stay related. In a way, conscious uncoupling is about that.

It's not about losing each other? No. I mean, look, if you have a crash and burn relationship, somebody's got a personality disorder, they're like an addict, they're like unethical with you, they're toxic, you're going to have to- You need to cut it off. You need to set that boundary. You're not going to be able to do that.

But in many relationships, you can transition. Certainly if you have children or if you're business partners, we wanted to kind of wrap in business too, because I think, you know, I've had two business breakups in my lifetime that were almost as heart wrenching as my divorce, right? They can be very, very difficult to navigate. So any kind of, so you really don't want to lose people entirely. You want to do things like one of the things I have people do is to become very conscious of the agreements that you've had as a

couple, as you had as a couple, as a couple, like you will always prioritize me. You will always rescue me when I'm in trouble, that kind of thing. You'll, you know, or you will always love me the most. Um, I will always love you the most. I will sexual fidelity, that kind of thing. You know, we are people of our word. There was one woman that I worked with who had been divorced 10 years earlier, hadn't seen her husband in eight years. He was already married to somebody else. She hadn't talked to him in eight years. She had never been on a date. And when we worked together, it was because she was still like, she was Catholic. So she was still kind of covertly keeping her vow of fidelity to him. No way. So we have these agreements with each other, and then we have to update the agreements

and become conscious. Yes. Like, who are you going to be to me now? What are my expectations of you? What are your expectations of me? And when you start, so that's how you kind of evolve a relationship to a new healthy form. But I think you asked me how to call in the one.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so much I want to learn. There's a lot that I have to say. The challenge is, you know, the challenge is how do you call in the one and then how do you know it is the one and how do you, and then how do you deal with coping with when it's not the one right now or it's not the right time or it's not working that it's not the one anymore right now? Well, so they're different questions. So I think how to call in the one is about being very intentional and being more future oriented than past oriented. So a lot of us have,

you know, certain things in our histories and our childhoods. We have certain, you know, dynamics that were happening in our families. And so we have insecurities, we have beliefs that, you know,

I'm not good enough or I'm not wanted or men always leave or those kinds of stories. Or I can't trust people or whatever it is. Right. I don't have faith in humanity or something. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and so we're kind of like, or, and then we go to how am I going to have love? And there's like a sense of resignation, like, because it's become an identity.

It's become a self-sense. So one of the things we do in Calling in the One is we look and name that identity really specifically according to each person's story. Like if your dad left when you were five, what did you make that mean about you? Yes. I'm not worthy or that everyone's always going to leave me or that when I get close to someone, they're going to leave. Right. Because inside that consciousness, we're going to show up in ways that then validate that story. And it's so covert. And it seems like it's just happening to us.

And we don't see how it's happening through us. One of my favorite stories about this is a woman who was in her 20s. And she was a client of mine. And she met this guy. And they really liked each other. And they were hot and heavy for a few weeks. And then all of a sudden, he stopped calling. Completely. No texts, no calls,

one day, two day, three day, four day, five day. By the fifth day, she's like beside herself because her dad left when she was five and never came back. So in her world, men leave. And so she did what she thought was a great preemptive strike against being hurt. And she just texted him that she met someone new and she's not interested in the connection anymore. Like that to her was her way of getting her power back. As opposed to just having a conversation or reaching out and not making assumptions. Exactly. She was so in her assumption. So anyway, two years later, she met him at a club and found out that he had been taking a break because he was like seriously thinking about asking her to be in a long-term committed relationship. And then he had to go back to certain women and close things up with them. So he was like distracted ending these other relationships. Yeah. And trying to

make sure it was the right thing. Wow. Sabotaged herself. So in Calling in the One, we make that conscious. And then we go back and say, what's the deeper truth? Yeah. You know, well, your dad left, but not every man will ever leave you. And probably if you learn some relationship skills on how to navigate difficult conversations, you'd have a higher chance of staying together. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And maybe they will leave you again.

And maybe not everyone will. But not exactly. Yeah. Exactly. You can't say, well, see, I'm just, I'm right now because this person left or they were interested and then they left. Like that's called dating. You know't say, well, see, I'm just, I'm right now because this person laughed or they were interested and then they left. Like that's called dating. You know what I mean?

It is called dating. I say that to people all the time. It's called, they don't have to make a decision in the first two weeks or the first two months to be with you or not. Exactly. It's called getting to know someone and seeing where it goes. Right. It's not like you're not good enough.

Right. Maybe it's just not a good fit or the right timing or maybe he's into someone else, whatever. You're not good enough. Maybe it's just not a good fit or the right timing or maybe he's into someone else, whatever. So I get people, I kind of help people to wake up out of that trance and get into a place of real possibility, like the recognition that you actually have the power to influence what comes your way and what doesn't come your way and get into a sense of possibility and then begin to live into a vision and start to align with that vision and live in integrity with that vision so that you're not like living your neurosis. You're kind of

living. And you know, the thing about having these, you know, a lot of us have been doing our work and we kind of know our issues, quote unquote, backwards and forwards, but there's something different about actually even giving up the right to have a certain conversation, right? So you can like sit in therapy for five years and talk about men always leave me, or you could have a moment where you say, it's not actually true. It's the story of a five-year-old. This is what's actually true. And that's going to require me to show up in a different way.

And I need to start showing up now in integrity with the future I'm committed to creating. Because calling in the one is not about necessarily, you know, finding the guy. It's about becoming the woman that you would need to be or becoming the man that you would need to be in order to find that partner. Yeah. I had a, another friend of mine who's a, you know, does a lot of relationship work as well. I was like, what's the, the best way to find like a great partner? He said, create a list of everything you want out of that person, everything you want from

them, and then go be that yourself. Yes. I was like, oh man, that's strong. You want them to be funny and attractive and outgoing and adventurous and successful, then you've got to be all those things. You can't just be half those things and expect someone else to give you more value than you're bringing to the table, really. I mean, you've got to show up in a powerful way.

Definitely. So I was like, that is strong. That's it. And the other thing about crawling in the one, I mean, you're a man of very clear mission. Yes. And a lot of folks who are here with us today are very clear mission people. So you really need to find like, you need to be living your mission and you need to find someone who's sharing your mission.

Sharing it or supporting it. Sharing it or supporting it. But even the support needs to be, this is my contribution to that vision. Yes. And if it's taking away from the vision, it's really challenging. Because if somebody doesn't actually have that same value system and they're just kind of rah, rah, I'm not going to get in the way. Like, you're going to go create a family. Then you're going to create a home.

And then you're going to have kids maybe. And if they really have like a traditional value system, they're going to be like, oh, you're out running around talking to people again? No, you should be home with the kids this weekend. That's a challenge. So you really do. I think you have to find a mission partner if you really want to go all the way. And also to maximize the potentials of the connection. I mean, that's the ideal.

And then you know what? We human beings seem to make it work in all sorts of funny configurations. And every single relationship is unique to the people who are in it. And relationships will inspire us to continue to grow if we're really committed to maximizing the potentials of each connection. Of course. The scary thing about, you know, relationships are beautiful. I love being in relationship with all types of human beings, men and women. I just love being in relationship. And the challenge with intimate relationships is that one of two things are going

to happen. You're going to get married or you're going to break up. And they're both scary for people getting married or breaking up. It's like, they're both a challenge. There's something you're letting go of and taking on when you do either once. Yeah. And it's like, Oh man, it's so challenging. So when we get to the point where we eventually,

uh, you know, if we're going to go through a breakup, how do we do it in a way where there's love and beauty and grace and not craziness and jealousy and anger and resentment because I've been in previous relationships in my past where, man, I'm not proud of the way things ended on both of our accounts. And I'm sure a lot of people have experienced some type of nastiness in a breakup based out of hurt, pain, resentment, anger, frustration, not feeling good enough,

whatever it may be, feeling taken advantage of. So what's the process? If you know that something is not working and you've tried to work it out for a while and you're giving your all and they're giving your all and you love each other, but it's not working for months and months, maybe years, how do you start the process of doing a breakup without it being painful? Oh, is that possible? It's not possible. It's not possible.

That's not possible. That's not a realistic goal. Pain is inevitable. Well, we're, we're hardwired to, to, to bond.

Yes, we just are like the, um, the latest studies in neurobiology show that when the people that were, we're hanging with the most, we actually sync up physiologically. Really? Yeah.

So we start, so we're actually, our brains will start to hook up. Brains are social creatures. So if you're going to part ways, it's, there's no way for that to not be incredibly painful. But so conscious uncoupling is more about, okay, how are we going to suffer in an effective way? So pain is inevitable. You're going to experience pain. It's going to be challenging.

How do you do it in a way where you can still be okay with it? Yeah, well, that you're going to be able to- And not drag it on for years or something, right? Oh, exactly. Well, that's when people create a negative bond as opposed to a positive one because they can't let go. See, that's the brain though. The brain doesn't want to let go at any cost. The brain is hard. Even depression. There've been studies that

shows, you know, even puppies get depressed, you know, when they can't find their moms, they grow in the corner and they're just like really depressed. And I heard there was one scientist who was kind of pontificating on the reason for this, I thought it really made a lot of sense, which is it's nature's way of slowing us down so we don't move too quickly away from the object that we are attached to. Oh, man. So nature is really kind of errors on the side of attachment. And so we don't necessarily do that. In our value system, we might say, I can't stay with someone who doesn't really, isn't in the center of my mission. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to dim down and live a lesser life in order to keep this relationship going. I can't do that. It would be such a betrayal of myself.

Right. So, you know, and we have to recognize that, you know, in previous generations, people didn't really have that. Like it was just, you just did that. You like dimmed down, you settled, you took care of your family. Because your family, whatever, you know. Like, so this is a new emergence that's happening. And I think it's part of like our grand awakening that's happening in the world. We're all growing really super fast right now. And if our partners aren't growing with us, it becomes a challenge. It is a challenge. It is a challenge in terms of prioritizing how you're going to spend your time or what you're going to do with your energy or being able to share your inner world.

Esther Perel's, Esther, I'm sorry, Esther's lame, but you know, the relationship expert who talks a lot about infidelity, she's got a new book coming out. And one of her things that she's talking about is existential affairs, you know, and like the love affair with life and the love affair with mission and Pat and it can pull on life. Yeah. Yeah. It can pull on us. Anyway.

So, so I, um, I can't, I lost the through line right there. What was I saying? Good question. I lost it too. Um, going into the five steps, Going into the five steps. Going into the five steps. So, you know, the pain is inevitable, but how do we do the suffering in a loving way? We don't want to have ineffective suffering.

Yes. Okay. So ineffective suffering is when you take the bait of your biology and you go to form. Which is strong. Very strong. Super strong. Strong. Right. you go to strong and very strong, super strong, right? And so you're going to fight or flight

and you want to, you want to lash out that, you know, soulmate to soul hate phenomenon. So, so you want to lash out, but what it will do is create a negative bond and keep you just as invested, but only this time through a toxic negative cycle of negativity. Yeah. Right. That's not healthy because you love the person. You don't want to hate them or be mad at them constantly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think where we want to go is, or I know where we want to go, is to be able to find a way to de-escalate the intensity of the emotions that we're feeling. How do we do that?

When we are hardwired to be jealous or angry or just reactive, how do we say, okay, I'm going to be in an own state right now and calm and meditate and not let any of this affect me? Well, one of the reasons it's so hard is because our relationships actually regulate our emotions. They're fear regulators, our relationships. So when there's a rupture of attachment, you know, that phenomenon, like the one person who's hurting you the most, that's the person you want to see the most to comfort you. So because they are, you're hardwired to get regulated by that person. They're the one person who can comfort you and soothe you. So the, the, the, otherwise you're the puppy in the

corner, just like depressed. Yeah. Or enraged, right? Or freaking out. I mean, depression is actually a higher level of, you know, on Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's stages of grief, you have bargaining, denial, and anger, and then you have depression. And so depression is like, I'm starting to come to terms with this. So it's actually a good thing in a breakup. But I think you're saying like, how do you deal with the anger and the rage and the jealousy, all of that stuff. So, so one of the things that I offer people is a simple technique called affect labeling in, in the psychological world, which is basically the ability to put a name on each of your feelings. Okay. So give me an example. So, example is, first of all, there was a scientific study done where subjects were looking at a computer screen.

And they were seeing, you know, phases of horror, phases of rage, phases of hatred. And they were being monitored in all of their vitals. And they're kind of going off the charts. Their blood pressure is rising and their heart rate is going. And then they did another technique with this. They have the same pictures to a new group, but put a name, hatred, rage, despair, and the vitals did not go up in the same way. So what that shows is that when we have a name for the experience that

we're having, we don't get as overwhelmed. So language serves kind of as a container. So how would we use that in a breakup? So I have a practice where I just, it's very simply advise people to ask yourself, you know, Catherine, honey, what are you feeling right now? I'm feeling terrified. I can see that you're feeling terrified. Honey, what else are you feeling? I'm feeling so humiliated. Oh, I can see that you're so humiliated. What else are you feeling? I'm feeling really pissed. Okay. Okay. I can see that you're feeling that.

What else are you feeling? I feel exhilarated because we have all these feelings going on at once. They don't have to get on with each other, you know? So it's so that, that process. And then sometimes that the feelings are overwhelming. I also give them people an opportunity to do this process of tongue Glenn, which is a Buddhist process. I'm not Buddhist myself, but it's a beautiful practice that Pema Chodron actually made very

popular. If you breathe a certain feeling into your heart, so I feel despair, I'm going to breathe despair in. I'm not going to turn away from it. And on the out breath, I'm going to breathe out a blessing to everyone in the world who in this very moment is suffering with this very feeling, including myself. And it starts to be like, you can start to hold the feeling more because you've made a bigger playing field and you see it as an impersonal experience. And then you become a force of good. Ideally, what happens is we want to harvest the seeds of growth that are inside of each of our feelings. So for

instance, the feeling of rage, there's something underneath it, like a violation has occurred. And there's a part of us that's saying, I, I should be treated better. I deserve respect. I deserve that my, that my feelings should matter to the people that love me and that I've opened my life up to, and I deserve to have better. So that can actually become a stand then that you take. Yeah. Because we're going to move into self-responsibility. How is it giving my power away?

How is it okay? How is I treating people to disrespect me? All of that kind of thing. Sure. Right. So you want to harvest the seeds of growth. Gotcha. Because this is the thing. There's also a teacher, Ken MacLeod, talks about karma.

And he breaks karma down basically to its original Sanskrit meaning, which means the ability to plant seeds for the future. It's action seed seed, results. So every action we take, every choice that we make in that moment when we're in a breakup is planting a seed for the future. And a lot of people who end up in that negative spiral

where you're years later fighting and back in court and stuff is because at the very beginning people planted bad seeds of hatred and rage. And that's what that grows in your backyard. And you're eating those bitter fruits for years to come. So it becomes actually self-destructive.

It's meant to hurt somebody else in the way that you feel hurt, but it becomes self-destructive. And so one of the principles in step one of conscious uncoupling is, you know, do no harm and plant good seeds. Do no harm to yourself or other people. Other people even. Do no harm to anyone. Even though you want to lash out. You want to get mad or upset. Run around the track.

Work out. Work out. Do a great work of art. Hang out with your friends. You know, just like throw paint on a canvas. Write in your journal. Don't react to your partner or your... Don't send the email, right?

Or the text message is like... Or the text, right? Don't do it. What does that do when you do those things? Well, it starts to plant those bad seeds. I mean, it's very easy to cross the line and say things that you can never, ever take back and that kind of color life moving forward.

And I think what happens to us is that we go down a path of living a lesser life in the aftermath of a really bad breakup, an ugly breakup. And so it's hard. It's longer to bounce back too. Much longer to bounce back. And also, I mean, this goes into step two of the process. As long as you're pointing the finger at someone else, even if they were misbehaved and did terrible, terrible things, you're not using the opportunity to, you know, look at yourself

and how you co-created the dynamic that allowed for that to happen. You're responsible for everything too. And the only way you're ever going to trust yourself to love and be loved again is to take responsibility for your part of it. Because then you can make an amends to yourself and make a decision to never behave that way again. Right, right. And the first step you have here is called find emotional freedom.

Is that part of this process we talked about? Well, find emotional freedom is the first one with the affect labeling. And like, so that you're, so that you have your feelings, they don't have you. They don't have control over you. They don't have control over you. They don't have control over you. Exactly. And the second one is reclaim your power in your life. Yes.

So, hitting back your own power. Which always means, you know, the path to power. What? Path to power is responsibility. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Otherwise, you're a victim.

Right. You've got to get out of victim consciousness. And it's so easy to be in victim consciousness. You've got to get out of victim consciousness. And it's so easy to be in victim consciousness. And the thing about a breakup is when you're traumatized, what happens to us is, you know, trauma is basically that whatever is happening is more than you can wrap yourself around. So you can't actually hold it. It's so it's overwhelming.

And so it starts to overwhelm us in a way that has us start to tell the story over and over and over again. And that's where we're burning our friends out because we just want to talk about what she did and what he did. It's so terrible. Get over this already. So it's normal to need to tell the story and to be a bit obsessive about the story. But the way that we're telling the story is really critical because you could be telling the story from a victimized perspective over and over again, which is kind of solidifying that point of view and then kind of making it destined for you to then move into living a lesser life of being more guarded.

destined for you to then move into living a lesser life of being more guarded. You know, I mean. Saying I was right about my past and how this is, you know, always going to show up this way. Yeah. I mean, you know, I liken a broken heart to a broken leg where, you know, we understand that when you break your leg, it's never going to be fun. But we know you go to the doctor, you get this, you get it set properly and you tend to the break properly.

It takes time to heal. And then eventually it takes time. You don't run on it right away. Right. It takes six months, a year, you know, you're fully recovered. Yes. And you, and you, but you do whatever you have to do to make sure that you're not going to run with a limp. Yes.

For the rest of your life. You know, that you're not going to be in agony every time it rains. And that's kind of the heart's equivalent of if you don't take the proper steps to set your heart in the right direction. So telling the story over and over again from a victimized perspective is like not setting the brake properly. It's like continually just walking on a broken leg. It's like walking on it.

It's like you feel it like cringing, you know, it's really bones grinding. Yeah. So, um, so. So how does someone go into the next relationship? You know, they have their heart broken or it didn't work out. They spent 10 years married and they have a child with someone and it's, you made a vow to your family and to God and your religion and everyone and your whole values came down to this one relationship that you said, I was going to commit to this for the rest of my life. And everyone watched you say this commitment.

And now how do you move on? I mean, maybe we should do the final two steps first or three steps first. Well, no, I love your question. I love it because it's asked with so much integrity. And I think it's asked really, you asked the question like a man, like a woman wouldn't necessarily ask that question the way that you asked it. Oh, you know. Because, and I think it's important to just validate what you just did, because I just love that men tend to make their commitments, take their commitments so seriously. I think women do too. I mean, women that grow up in a religious way, you know, that are like, okay, my vow

and my commitment in front of God and my family is like for life. And 69% of breakups are initiated by women. Really? Yes. Divorces. 69%. So I think that we have a different- Women are less their word than men, huh?

I think we have a different relationship to it in a way. I think that we care about our internal life and our emotions and our feelings. And if we don't feel like it's the right place, we will then choose that to honor that. I mean, obviously, forgive me for stereotyping. Sure, sure. Of course. But I just really appreciate it. Because I look to men

with that kind of ferocity of commitment and keep your word like with great respect and honor like like wow we really need to aspire to be more like that but so it's a great question um i think you know it is so let me let me relate to your question to just kind of finishing up the step two, which is, I think, you know, when we go to self-reflect about taking personal responsibility, which you're going to have to do big time in order to, you know, break that commitment, you want to ask yourself questions that are going to actually foster growth and development. And most of us ask ourselves shame-based questions, and that's why we can't take personal responsibility. What questions do we usually ask?

What's wrong with me? Oh, right, yeah. What's wrong with me? Why can't I keep it together? Why can't we make it work? Why doesn't anybody love me? You know? Yeah.

What's wrong with me? How can I be so stupid? Right, so we'll ask- How did I see this coming before? Right. I didn't see the red flags. How did you see this coming? What's wrong? Yeah, so it's basically some variation on the theme of what's wrong with me. Right. So we'll ask, I see this coming before I see the red flags. Yeah. So it's basically some variation on the theme of what's wrong with me. That's not going to ever foster growth and

development. Like the questions that you want to be asking are, you know, okay, if this is what I keep creating, what part of me feels safer being alone than in relationship? Or how do I give my power away to try and be liked? Where do I show up in ways that are self-disparaging or not really standing for myself so that I train someone else to treat me badly? It's like those kinds of questions are going to lead to emancipation from old patterns. And you're going to become a better

version of yourself. And I think if you, if we lose something that we were once deeply invested in, you know, with our whole hearts that we have to come out of the experience as better versions of ourselves to really live with ourselves, we're going to come out more humble, more generous, more soft hearted, more conscious, more aware of the impact of our choices on another person, you know, and, and, and ultimately, so that's effective suffering, right? Now we're, now we're talking about effective suffering. Deeper empathy, be in service more. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like the cost. I mean, a lot of us just skim over these things. Our partner can ask us for things for a long time and we don't think it's important.

And then when we lose the relationship, we go, wow, that was like super important. That was nothing to skim over. I should have taken that more seriously. So we're learning about relationships as we go forward. And I think that the commitment to then implement that moving forward is what helps us to live with ourselves. The step three is about going back and healing the original wound in our heart. We talked a little about that in the Calling in the One conversation, like what's the I'm not wanted or the I'm alone and how have you been showing up in ways that have kind of

recreated that story. And the most important part is like, well, what's really true? Yeah. Because these are lies that we've been living inside of. And if you were really centered in that deeper truth, like how would you be showing up in all your relationships? So you really have a chance to graduate from old painful patterns inside of that. Okay. And then step four is.

I love the word you use here, love alchemist. Love alchemist. I love that. What does that mean to you? Well, it's about being generative of the future of a positive future so it's the recognition that people are going to lash out that people are going to do you know unconscious things because that's what's normal in a breakup right so i normalize that like nobody goes through conscious uncoupling perfectly like

we're going to do everybody goes through it messy you know, because a breakup is like a birth canal. Like you get your face smushed and you're like in it, you don't know where you're going. You're kind of out of control. So you're, you're, you're just, you're doing the best you can. And so, so step four is about setting an intention for a positive outcome for everyone impacted and aligning with that future. And so, so when there's breakdowns in communication, it's about responding in a generative way. So somebody comes to you and says, well, I thought you were going to do this. And you said you were going to do that. Instead of saying, yeah, but you said this and blah, blah, blah, going down, spiraling down, you might say, oh, wow. Okay. You're upset. Let me see if I understand what you're upset about.

Yeah, you're right. I did kind of mess that up. Okay. You're absolutely right. And that's inconsistent with the future that we're committed to creating too. I'm going to really try harder. So you make an amends. I think that's the same thing for being in a relationship is doing that as well as being uncoupling. I'm creating a whole thing for conscious recoupling for people who've gone through the program because actually that's what happens sometimes. Yeah. So the program could actually be for people who are just really struggling in their relationship

too. Or it's ended and they got back together or any of those options. Gotcha. Yeah. So it's about learning how to repair. Yeah. And, um, and, and, and repairing in a way that's not necessarily about getting back together again. Right. Repairing in a way that says, you know, even though you're not my primary mate,

I value you. I love you and care about you. I value our connection. I value who you've been. I mean, I have a daughter with my former husband who I affectionately call my husband. former husband who I affectionately call my husband. And, um, and, and, you know, I value him for so many reasons. He's the one father my daughter will ever have. He gave me the gift of our daughter. He shows up, he fathers her really well. Like I'm, I'm constantly, I'm constantly demonstrating how valuable he is to me and to our family. He has like a place of honor in my life. You know, that's how I hold him. That's how I treat him. And I like to remind people that, you know, when we're in relationships, we're always building, you know, we're investing in the kind of emotional bank with each other. You compliment, you support, you show up for things.

I think that when you have children or if you have a business relationship, for instance, you know, where you have ongoing things happening, you still want to invest in the relationship. You're just investing. In a different way. In a different way. But you're investing in the health of your family in the same way that you might, you know, be generous to a cousin or to your brother. Somebody has not left your family.

If you have children, that person is still your family. Yeah, of course. So when did you realize he wasn't the one anymore? It was kind of gradual, truthfully. And for me, it had to do with the disparity in our missions. So you had different alignments. We did. And when we got married, it looked like they were the same thing. But I think that it took a few years to reveal that they really were not.

Now, sometimes when people have different values, they complement each other. Right? values, they complement each other. Right. So my value of, um, expansion and growth and, um, moving, you know, onwards and upwards all the time, aspiring to be a better human being and evolve my own consciousness. Um, I'm, I'm a growth junkie. i'm a change junkie yeah he is very buddhist and his practice is really around more like accepting what is and seeing the beauty in what is so i think you can have a marriage like that and have it work if you're inspired by each other and you're valuing each other and you're learning a bit of each other's practice you're growing together because you know they are two beautiful sides of the same coin

and one could actually learn from the other. But with us, it just kind of fell flat. It just wasn't going anywhere. And we're both kind of really devoted to those paths. The mission. And you don't want to give up on your mission. You can't in a way. Otherwise, you're like giving up on yourself. Yeah. It just, it was, I mean, he would never

have asked that of me and I would never have asked that of him. So we just decided, I mean, it was actually a very loving decision between us. We decided that if we were both feeling held back on our missions and our purposes, that what we would do is just reconfigure the family so that we were both free to pursue and go all the way with what we were called and committed to. But what about your commitment to the marriage forever? Well, I think. How do you let go of that conversation? You know, we just made a different decision. And we decided that we were going to love each other outside of the form of the marriage.

That the marriage, that the mantle of marriage was not an appropriate one for our relationship anymore. It wasn't the best one for us. And I think it was really a great decision. I mean, I just see what's happened for him in the aftermath and I see what's happened for me. And I wouldn't be who I am now and he wouldn't be who he is now. What if one person really wants to stay in a relationship or makes the other person wrong for wanting to end it because they're not willing to work hard enough? They're not willing to sacrifice enough or they don't share the same values or they said one thing and they took it back. don't share the same values or they said one thing and they took it back. How does that person who wants to evolve and wants to uncouple consciously out of love

or grow from that, how does that person handle the person who doesn't get it or doesn't see it or makes them wrong for it? It's one of the things that makes breakups so hard is that rarely are two people in the same place. I mean, I was the one that wanted, that suggested the ending, but we had been engaging this dialogue. So at the time it wasn't. It wasn't a shocker.

It wasn't a big shocker. And he was very, very gracious about it. But that was not the norm. I think the norm is usually what you're talking about. And the thing about what happens at the end of a relationship is usually there's one person who is the initiator of the breakup. And usually it's going on for them for a while. And they're not just one moment. Oh, this isn't working. No, it's going months or years. Exactly. And so they're, what they're doing is they're getting a lot of their grieving done in the marriage and they are building a life outside of the marriage so that their identity is not so wrapped up in the marriage. And, um,

so, so by the time they're ready to say this is over, they've kind of done all of a lot of their inner work around accepting that. And the other person is shocked. And so they have a, they're reacting and they have a long way to go. They have a longer way to go. But conscious uncoupling is also important to the person who's leaving because they too have a victimization story that's justifying the leaving. And they too have duplicated patterns and it looks like it's happening to them. They didn't give me enough.

That's why I'm leaving. Or they weren't showing up in a way that I needed or whatever. Without being aware that they didn't ask for that or that who they were being influenced to the other person was showing up as, so they're likely to duplicate that dynamic with someone else. Yeah. And then the fifth step. Create your happily even afterlife. Yes.

How do we do that? Well, that has to do with taking care of the whole community. And I like to say that relationships have two sides to the same coin. There's the private experience of what's happened between a couple. I say that that relationship takes place between the sheets and between the lines. Right. And then, but then there's the public aspect of relationship. And there is what the couple means to the community. The couple means something, obviously, to their own children, but also their extended family, to the in-laws, and also their friends or their spiritual group. And we all know that people, we talk about people as being couples of being the pillars of the community.

So in some way, they make the community feel safe. Wow. And when they're not together, how do you make them feel safe? Right. And then people feel torn. And do I need to give loyalties to one or the other? Because we'll kind of all devolve into a concept, an idea of war. So there's a way that, you know, we need to take care of the community.

One of the things I did with my own mom is she, you know, she did what anybody who's loving would do. When I said I was getting divorced, she started to immediately kind of devalue my husband and the marriage, right? Because she's trying to show solidarity. That's not helpful, is it? I think on an emotional level. When family members are like, oh, you're not, he wasn't good enough for you anyways, or you can do better or this and that. He always did this. That's not healthy for the unconscious coupling. No, it's not.

But what is helpful is that they're giving, they're extending their love and their loyalty. Of course. And that's really what they want to do. I'm here for you. I love you. I see you. I'm on your side. So that you want to keep.

But I had to educate her and say, you know, we're not going to do it that way. And this is who Mark is for me. And I'm not a perfect person either, by the way. And I'm like, I'm the golden ticket and everything was perfect. Yeah. And he was just the wrong guy, you know, like, so it was co-created. And this is just a choice we're making, but we're going to do it differently. And we're going to be really respectful and honorable. And oh, by the way, he's still your son-in-law.

You just have to get used to the fact that I'm not married to him anymore. Wow. And she was on board for that. So now she buys him Christmas gifts like everybody else. That's nice. So, you know, that's just our quirky family. So it's conscious uncoupling with families as well. It is. Like they have to learn how to be conscious about it. Yes, they do. And not just be like negative feeding you into this negativity.

Yeah. And it was, I mean, in my own family, it was great because my mother had had a very bad divorce from my stepfather actually decades before, and they had never really resolved a lot of anger between them. And then she watched how I did this with my own former husband and she went back and created a conscious powerful. Yeah. So powerful example. So now that everybody's, you know, on speaking terms and everybody's friendly and there's more of a feeling like we have one family and we don't have these fragments of relationships everywhere. I'm curious now, do you know how many, um, what the divorce rate is right now? There's so many different ways to look at that and calculate that.

I think- In the U.S. at least, I guess. Well, I've read that of the 2.2 million marriages in 2015, we'll also have 1.1 million divorces. In 2015. Yeah. So that's where people get that 50% number. I think also there was a article in the Huffington post that I cite where, um, that there was, uh, I think a little over 40% divorce rate for first marriages, over 60% for second marriages and over 70% for third marriages. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So when all these divorce, I mean,

how many people do you think are staying in a marriage because they feel like they should, or their commitment or family that aren't happy? I think a lot of us do. I mean, there was a study that was done years ago and I think, and I know I'd have to look it up. I write about it in the book,

but I think it's 38% of us reported being unhappy in marriage. So how many actually who stay together are actually happy, do you think, in marriage after a few years? I think it's not an easy aspiration to have. I don't have a figure for you, so I could guess. What do you think in range? A third. A third. And I think that's a high figure, a third of the 50% who are together still. So like 20% of people that get married are actually happy. Yeah. I mean, those,

those are the kind of numbers are fully fulfilled or fully happy or just settling. I mean, we have to grow. We have to learn how to do this better. You know, I, I'm really fascinated with conscious coupling and I'm interested in like what's going to, I'm actually working on something right now that I'm calling Unbreakable Bonds.

The four healthy habits of the happily attached. Like I want to know what makes relationships great. You got to find those 20%. Yeah. Well, I would like to switch that number.

I'd like 80% of us really thriving in our relationships with each other. The question is, if 20% roughly of people are actually happy in marriage long term, why be in a relationship and get married when it's going to end in suffering? Well, I think if we learn how to end our relationships responsibly, we can take the risk to do that. I mean, I'm grateful that I had a wonderful marriage. I really am grateful. There was so much that came out of it. I mean, look, grateful that I had a wonderful marriage. I really am grateful. There

was so much, the good that came out of it. I mean, look, calling in the one came out of it. Conscious uncoupling came out of it. My, our daughter helped a lot of people. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that relationships and committed relationships in particular are really amazing because, you know, to have somebody really on your side and really rooting for you and up underneath you and, um, you know, to also have people to care about and to love. So you get out of your own way and we get to engage with each other and learn. I've learned so much. I'm such a different person than the woman who married Mark. I'm much more mature, much more present. I'm much more tolerant. I'm. I think I'm a more loving person now. So what you're saying, it's okay to get in a relationship even if you break up.

Even if you're going to break up. In some ways, I think, see, I think knowing that if we could break, if we had to, we would have a way to do this well and peacefully allows us to even open our hearts further and go into relationships more committed, you know, with more of ourselves available. Knowing that, hey, there may end and it's going to be okay either way. It will be okay. Nobody's going to be damaged. We're always going to be good to each other.

Most people don't go into that with that mindset. Well, that's what I'm hoping to change. And it's hard to go into a mindset thinking, I'm so in love with this person. I want to create a future with them. I want to create a family. But we may break up one day. It's hard to have that on your mind when you're going into it. I think people do have that on their minds, though.

I mean, I don't think that we're sticking our head in the sand at a 50% divorce rate. I think we're very aware of that rate. And I think that we're very aware of how disgusting and ugly it usually is. And so that's keeping a lot of us from moving forward. And I think for men in particular, I think men have gotten a very bad rap in terms of custody things and alimony stuff. And yeah, I think a lot of men have cold feet around marriage in general because of- They feel like they're going to get screwed at some point. Well, and I have to add, and forgive me, I have to say that for women too, because now women are even the primary breadwinners for their family just as often.

So anybody who's gone, although I think that we women tend to still hold on to the ideal, but I think men are very pragmatic about it. And a lot of men are a little bit nervous about that kind of potential. So we're looking at divorce reform and, you know, reform and evolution around breakups, not just emotionally, but also legally. There's a lot happening on the legal field. I've been working and talking to some legal professionals who are really committed to evolving the legal landscape of divorce

to make that much more holistic and wholesome, make it a more wholesome process. It's challenging. So that we're not so terrified of losing each other. Should we commit so that we're actually freer to commit and dive in absolutely 110% with each other? What do you think the world needs more of in terms of when they're in relationships? When they're in relationship? Yeah. How about self-awareness and self-responsibility? You know, presence of mind to get out of our old habits, the awareness of what your old trance is, the I'm not good enough or I'm alone or, and, and what kind of, see inside

of those old beliefs, our development got stunted. We never actually learned certain skills in relationship inside of that worldview. If you think you're invisible and no one ever really cares about you, why in the world would you even bother learning how to state your needs clearly? Because there's an assumption that the other person won't care about them. Right. Right. Right.

So, so once you, you learn your consciousness, you understand, you know, what your filters are and you, you are willing to work to break those up and reality check them and get into your adult center and actually have an adult relationship and not be running a show from your wounded child. It's going to cause a whole new opportunity for happiness and love. I love it. What do you want people to take away from this the most? What is your mission with this book? Well, my mission is that there is another way. I mean, I myself, we didn't get into this and we're probably running out of time now,

but I myself was the product of a very bad divorce. And, uh, all of those things that they say could go wrong, did go wrong. You know, I had difficulties in school and I was promiscuous and I was smoking cigarettes by the age of 10 and hanging out in bars by the age of 14. And then I had, you know, difficult relational patterns in my twenties. Um, and, uh, so, and, and, and really like painful, painful, painful patterns up until in my thirties when I started to kind of sort myself out and finally figure it out. And my mission is to spare a whole generation of children that agony, you know, we kind of know these results of what happens in a bad divorce for children. We know that they have difficult relationships, that they're more likely to divorce later on

and all those kinds of things. However, those of us who've been through it understand what it is internally. And it can be an emotional homelessness that can last for years, or it can be a low-grade depression, or it can be a feeling of I don't belong anywhere, or deep aloneness.

All of those kinds of things in consciousness that happen in what I'll call an uncontained divorce. And so conscious uncoupling is about keeping the family a family and making sure that children feel cared for and loved, and even the children in all of us, you know, so that we don't have to go into emotional homelessness because we're going to transition to union, but we can remember that we all do belong to each other and that each one of us is, you know, felt more held in a field of love and belonging. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah. We are getting to the end of the time, although I want to continue to ask you questions. So maybe we'll have to come back on another time and do round two. Um, but to wrap it up, I've got a couple of final questions. One is what's, what are you most grateful for recently? Oh, wow. Um, there's a lot of magic in my life right now almost too much to even begin to name um i think this book uh for me is is such a profound important contribution to make because of my childhood and because of my journey and the difficulties I've had in romantic love and intimate love for many, many years. And the opportunity to take the thing that was most devastating and most challenging in my life

and turn it into a gift that I can now offer to the world is incredible. And I'm super grateful that the moment that it went out into the lexicon through Gwyneth Paltrow's website, that it was embraced and it began to reposition divorce. So to be able, I have this feeling like, you know, for years I was saying, I just, I had such a desire to contribute. For years I was saying to my friend, I just want to hit it out of the ballpark. I just want to hit it out of the ballpark for love. I just want to do something so loving in this world. And when that happened, it was like hitting it out of the ballpark.

And when was that? That happened last year. And that's how I got this wonderful book deal with Harmony. And now the book is coming out. And I feel really proud of the book i feel like it really names it and and lays out the process in a way that's accessible to people and not super woo-woo like it really gets like i know what you're going through on an emotional level and you still can do this yeah so there's just been a tremendous amount of support and magic um around

so i'm super grateful for that. Awesome. Yeah, this book is great. I mean, it's got a lot of great things. I love, there's a headline here. What if you're hoping you'll get back together? I saw great exercises in here of really processes we can do ourselves with other friends, with our partner or the partner we're breaking up with.

So I highly recommend getting the book, Conscious Uncoupling. If you're thinking about going through a breakup, you know a friend who's going through one, any of those things, get them this and send them this episode as well. Two final questions. Okay. The first one is, I ask at the end, is the three truths question. So if all your books have been erased and everything you've ever put out there has been gone and it's your last moments and you've got a piece of paper and a pencil to write down three truths that you know to be true

about what you've experienced in life and everything that you've learned, what would be those three things? Love yourself, love others, and love life. There you go. That's my religion. That's simple. I love it.

Final question before I ask. I want to acknowledge you for a moment katherine and i want to acknowledge you for and the courage that's taken for you for all the things you've done in the last 10 years first getting in a marriage and then ending a marriage that you thought you probably were supposed to stay with forever and having two different books talking about them. I mean, for me, that's courageous, putting yourself out there to the world. And really, you know, I would feel I don't know what I would feel about that if I was the one teaching people how to find the one and then say, OK, you know what? I was wrong or I was or it didn't work out and it's OK. Here's how to make it OK.

I was wrong or I was, or it didn't work out and it's okay. Here's how to make it. Okay. So for you to do that and go through everything you've been going through personally and emotionally and physically, uh, I really acknowledge you for your, your mission because it's so inspiring to know that you're continually creating great information and serving the world while you're going through everything that you're going through. Cause I know it's hard to create something magical and useful for people when you go through that much emotional and physical stress. So I want to acknowledge you for that. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. The final question is what's your definition of greatness? I've been thinking a lot about that since you invited me here. I think greatness is about being able to take whatever is happening for us personally

and really striving to make it into a contribution for the collective, to continually strive to contribute goodness to this world of ours and to lean in wholeheartedly with the effort to leave a legacy of goodness and well-being and love and to recognize that we're really living into a future that we might never even live to see. Yeah. There you go, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you. There you have it, guys. I hope this was helpful.

I hope this was healing. I hope this was grounding for those who are experiencing a breakup or for those who are thinking about breaking up a relationship. This can be business or personal relationships. about breaking up a relationship. This can be business or personal relationships. I hope this found you some relief and some optimism and possibility for good things to come ahead. Also, if you know someone who is going through a breakup

or who has been thinking about it, please share this with them. lewishouse.com slash 231 is the link. Share it over on Twitter and Facebook as well for your friends because you never know who might be experiencing this even when they don't say it and this could really help a lot of people

so please share it with your friends and you can check out all the show notes on how to connect with Catherine how to get her book back at lewishouse.com slash 231 make sure to follow her as well everywhere online. And I hope you guys enjoyed this. Until then, you guys know what time it is.

It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.