The School of Greatness - 244 How to Write a Story That Never Gets Old with Phil Rosenthal

Episode Date: October 26, 2015

"Your name is all you have." - Phil Rosenthal If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/244

This is episode number 244 with the creator of Everybody Loves Raymond, Phil Rosenthal. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome, everyone. But before we get into the episode,

I had the pleasure of sitting down with an incredible human being. His name is Phil Rosenthal, and he's an American television writer and producer who is best known as the creator, writer, and executive producer for the sitcom Everybody Loves Raymond, which ran for nine seasons and is still on TV all over the world. He has had 70 Emmy nominations for his show and won two Emmys. Also an author and currently producing a new show. All have what Phil's having. You're going to want to make sure you watch the show because it's really awesome and come back to the show notes at lewishouse.com

slash 244 so you can watch a video of what I was having with Phil. Also, you can watch the full video interview there. Top five things you're going to learn from this episode. Why Phil recommends that actors take writing classes and directors take acting classes. Also, why they decided to stop writing Everybody Loves Raymond while it was still at its popular peak. How young people are making the cheap urban neighborhoods cool

through their creativity. Phil's best tips for writing an amazing screenplay for all you screenplay writers out there, and how Phil got himself to write 210 episodes of the same show. I'm very excited about this, so let's go ahead and dive into this episode with the one, the only, Phil Rosenthal. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got a very special guest, Phil Rosenthal in the house. How's it going?

It's good. I can't believe I'm in the School of Greatness. School of Greatness. This is the studio. Here we go. Wow. Can we lower the expectations a little bit? We can.

School of okayness, can we call it? School of average, yeah. Yeah. But there's nothing you've done that's been average. Oh, you're very nice. And Gary Vaynerchuk, mutual friend, introduced us. He's the force and hatred. He's the force.

He emailed me and said, you've got to have this guy on. I never heard about you until he mentioned you. And then I researched and I was like, how have I not heard about you? I've heard about the work you've done. Yeah. The creator of Everybody Loves Raymond, right? Yes, sir. And that was, is that still on?

It's on everywhere. It's on everywhere. But how many years has it been? How many seasons now? Well, we did nine seasons. Nine seasons. And we've been actually, we finished almost 10 years ago. And it's still on.

It's just still on. So I feel like it's still running. That's called syndication. That's called nice paychecks. It's nice. But more than that, it's all over the world. All over the place. And even there are countries that are doing it in their own versions.

All over the place. And even there are countries that are doing it in their own versions. Like I went to Russia to help them turn it into Everybody Loves Kostya. No way. And I filmed the whole thing and it's a documentary. I made a documentary about it and it just started this month on Netflix. You could see it on Netflix. It's called Exporting Raymond. Wow.

And it's actually that that PBS saw and said, we want to do more with you. No way. Yeah. And it led to this new show. And the new show is called I'll Have What Phil's Having. Yes. And tell me a little bit about it because it's different than what you've ever done. Yes. I mean, this is something I've done in my whole life. Yeah. But you've never created a show like this. Never. So what is happening? It's every Monday night right now. Yeah, on PBS. And then after the night it premieres,

you can see it online on pbs.org. So everything's available to everybody all the time. Sure, sure. Soon, you know, the Apple Watch just came out.

And what it's missing is what the phone has that you can actually see the person you're talking to and watch TV shows. You know, you're too young to know who Dick Tracy was, right? You know who he was, but he had a watch with the, with the video phone in it. I'll be right there talking into their wrist. I'll be right there.

It's happening. It's happening. Yeah. Your phone, your TV and your computer are all becoming one thing. And probably your wallet will be on there, your car key, you'll tap the car and it opens up. I was talking to somebody this morning and saying, we are now half human, half phone. Right? When our phones are connected to us 24-7. We're bionic. Do you have yours right by your bed?

Look, I have it right here. Look. Do you have it by your bed and you're like... Yes, I do. Can you reach out and touch it when you're sleeping? Yes, you know why? Because I'm sick. I have an addiction problem.

Am I alone out there? No. I think some of us maybe have this, right? Put the phone down. Look at me. Exactly, yeah. So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to start putting the phone in the other room when you go to sleep?

I'll do what everybody else does. Nothing about it. I'll just live this way. I'll do what everybody else does. Nothing about it. I'll just live this way. I'll accept that I'm half phone, half human. What's your wife do? Does she have... She's busy on her phone. Really?

Yes. So when you guys are in bed at night, are you both... Yes, it's replaced other activities in the bed. But eventually you set it down and have fun. They connect. All right. So tell me exactly what's happening during your show. Okay, so they asked me, they saw me in this exporting Raymond movie.

They saw me go to Russia. They said, we like that movie. We like you in the movie. Do you have any ideas? We like the idea of you going places. I said, so does my wife. Not with her, getting away from her. She wants me out of the house i think so i said yeah i've had this fantasy where i go to a different great spot every episode of a show a different city a different city a

different great place on earth every episode and i show you where to eat as a way of connecting to different cultures. Right? They say, we've been looking for a food and travel show with humor for years. Because it's all been serious or... Yeah. Or maybe a little playful, but not humorous. Well, they've done like cooking shows. Yes.

And then they do very straight-laced kind of travelogue shows. Like Anthony Bourdain. Well, Anthony Bourdain is like a superhero. He's next level, yeah. He's next level. He's like... Great writer. Yeah, my joke is that I'm exactly like Anthony Bourdain if he was afraid of everything.

There you go. So I'm very... Because he'll fly everything. Well, not only that, he's going to Beirut, he's getting shot at, you know, he's doing Daredevil stuff. Look at me. I'm not doing that. Yeah. Right? I love him.

I live vicariously through him when I watch him. But I figure people look at me on the screen, they go, well, if that putz can go outside, maybe I can too. And that's my whole reason for doing it. I want people to get off the couch and not live vicariously through me, but to have what I'm having. I'll have what Phil's having. I want to go. I can. If that guy can do it, I can do it. And I'm starting with Tokyo, Italy, Paris, Barcelona, Hong Kong, and Los Angeles, right?

This to me is, since I'm trying to entice you, why not start with Earth's greatest hits? There you go. These are some of the best places on Earth. They're not all the best places. I've got a lot more seasons to do. I'm telling people it's a big world out there. Somebody's got to eat it. Sure.

I like that. Right? So that's the idea. Because I really think the world, wouldn't the world be a little bit better if all of us got outside our own experiences just a little bit to experience someone else's experience? That's the show. That's all I want to do. And for me, food and humor are the way in. Sure.

That's the entertainment part. Yeah, I like that. And the message comes from under that. So you've had an incredible life so far with all the things you've done with everybody are you saying i should stop already no i'm saying it's it's just beginning right yes and you i think you won two emmys is that right you're nominated for 10 or 11 or something like i lost count do you want me to tell you the real numbers tell me the real numbers the show was nominated for over 70 emmys Wow. Right? Wikipedia needs to update itself then. Well, if you're talking about me personally,

yeah, I won personally too, but the show won a lot more. Wow, 70 nominated for. Yeah. That's amazing. It's amazing. Has any other show been nominated that many times? Oh, sure.

There's lots of shows. Modern Family, I'm sure, has passed us many times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shows you how much I know about shows. That's all right. It's not about the Emmys, really. That's like a horse race. That's like a contest.

I would rather they say, these are our favorite shows of the year. Here's a show where we celebrate these shows. We show you clips. People get up

and talk a little bit about those shows. But that wouldn't be a bloodthirst sport, right? Exactly. That wouldn't be that we need a winner and we need a loser. Right, right, right. That wouldn't be... We need a winner and we need a loser.

Right, right, right. Or second place or whatever you want. Okay, so nominated for 70. You were nominated for 10 or 11 yourself and you won two. That I don't know.

Don't know, but you won two. Those I know because they're in my house. So you have two... Yes, two sharp, pointy things that could kill you. I have on a high shelf

because I had small children when we got these and you can't let them play with that. They'll kill themselves. Yeah. What gave you the inspiration for creating the show in the first place? I was a writer. I started at first as an actor in high school and college. That's what I studied. But at college, I got a kind of well-rounded education, which I recommend to everybody. If you're in a certain field, like if you were a football player and you knew your position, didn't it help you to know some of the other positions around you?

Of course. Not just the other offensive positions, but the defensive. You know what's coming at you. Of course. All right. So if you know that, it makes you better at your thing. Of course. They're all branches off the same tree.

So for me, and I tell this to actors take a writing class if you're a director right take an acting class because when you're in that situation doesn't it help to know what the other guy's thinking mainly because in my field i'm not hitting the other people like you yeah i'm talking to them and i'm trying to make it clear what i need so this applies think, to everything in life. Understand the other person, what they do and how it relates to what you want to do. We don't live in a bubble where it's just me and my thing and what I want. That's the mistake we make. But the smart guy sees the other things and applies it to what he wants to do.

I love that. And, by the way, you never know. So here I was studying acting, thinking, that's what I'm going to do. And then the writing came along. How did it come along? Some actors who were in school with me and I were starving to death. No jobs. No money.

We were bartenders. We were waiters. We were the usual thing that you... I was a guard at the Metropolitan Museum of Art where I was fired for falling asleep on a 300-year-old bed. Wow. How's that for your greatness? Wow.

Amazing. Great story. Good. You've got to start somewhere. You've got to start somewhere. By the way, let me tell you something. When I started writing, I needed a story. Like, what are you going to write for a sitcom?

Like, they call it a spec script. Something you write for free on spec that you then send around. It's your audition. It's your writing sample, right? So I'm with a partner at the time. His name was Oliver Goldstick. It's still his name. And he and I were thinking, like, what could we write about?

There's a show on called Roseanne at this time in the late 80s. What are we going to write? Well, how about this? How about the husband takes a second job as a night guard at the local museum, and he falls asleep on a 300-year-old bed? And we wrote that, my exact story. Wow. And people around town are reading this.

They're going, what an imagination on this guy. Right? So you never know where an imagination on this guy. Wow. Right? So you never know where the good thing comes from. Amazing. Here it was at the time when I'm fired. This is the most embarrassing moment of my life. This is, I'm a loser. Right, right, right.

I can't even hold a job that pays $180 a week. Right, right. Right? I'm dead. Who knew? That was my ticket in. From that script, we got an agent. From that script, we got hired on our first sitcom.

Wow. Right? And from there, it went. Amazing. Yeah. What was the first job you got? What was the first show that was your own after that? Everybody Loves Raymond.

That was the first show. That was mine. I worked on five or six other shows before that working for other people. Oh, I have to go back for a second because I was telling you that we were actors. Some actor friends of mine got together and wrote a show for ourselves to be in. You see? Wow. That was the transition of writing.

At the same time, another friend of mine, this was luck, came to me and said, you're funny. Let's write a screenplay together. Wow. And we did and we, you're funny. Let's write a screenplay together. Wow. And we did, and we sold it. Wow. And suddenly I went from having $150 in the bank to having $30,000. Right, just like that. I went from 100 air to 1,000 air.

I was now 1,000 air. 1,000 air. Right? That's a big step from 100 air. Well, I went from eating pizza and hot dogs for dinner to eating whatever I wanted. Amazing. And so I liked that. And so I said,

maybe I pursued the writing a little bit if I want to keep eating well. Of course. Right. And how old were you when you did the, when you got fired from the job? That was, I was 21. And from then till I was 29,

before I moved to Hollywood. Okay. I had these odd jobs. And I was 27 when we wrote the show for ourselves to be in and wrote the screenplay, 1988. That was, I was 28. And then, you know, this stuff started happening. But there are these years of struggle. Now, these years of struggle, since we're on the Greatness Podcast, this is the crucible. These 20s, when you're after college, where you realize you've now graduated with a

degree that's good for nothing. These odd jobs that you're going to have where you feel like a loser. Isn't that everything? That's everything. The struggle. The wanting to make it. The being young enough and having energy enough. It hits you at the right time in your life. You don't realize it then. If I could go back and talk to my younger self, I would say, don't worry. This suffering that you're having right now, this struggle that you're having right now is actually going to make you. Listen, if you're going to write about, for instance, if you're going to write about real

life, you should have one. You got to have the struggle. No one wants to hear a story about everyone having it smooth all the way through. There's got to be. There is no story. There's no. I woke up. I had no conflict.

I had no problems. I achieved everything I wanted. I did everything. Yeah. There's no story. There's no story. So you have to have the struggle in order to have the story. Actually, not just the story.

It makes you who you're going to be. You don't realize it at the time. I will say this, though. I will say that being young and living in New York, when New York actually in the 80s, if you're as old as me, if you lived in New York at the 80s, it wasn't as nice as it is now. No, it's nice now. It was kind of run down. Yeah. There were things failing all over the place.

And you weren't living in Soho and West Village. You were probably living in Washington Heights. Yeah. Which, and by the way, a nice part of Washington Heights where my grandparents settled after World War II. Yeah. They called it Frankfurt on the Hudson. Right. Right?

And it was kind of a nice neighborhood that nobody knew about. The rents were really cheap. Right. Right? And it was kind of a nice neighborhood that nobody knew about. The rents were really cheap. It was just a 15-minute express train ride to Midtown. Now people go, now that's already gentrified and it's a fantastic neighborhood in Manhattan. Now people are living out in Queens. Yep. Because Brooklyn's already been gentrified.

Brooklyn's already happening. Yeah, yeah. More than expensive than Manhattan. It is. Because it's where all the hipsters live. That's where all the hipsters live. That's where all the hipsters live. And there's a Brooklynization going on all over the world where young people, out of necessity, are going to where the cheap rents are and using their creativity and need, they're making it and making the place better. Cooler. Artistic.

Interesting. Great food, for example. You walk down the street in Brooklyn, it's like Disneyland for food. Right? I love it. When I travel now, like for the show, I'm seeing a neighborhood like that in every city I go to. I like that.

Because the young people are coming in and they're doing what they have to do to make it. And that's how the world is. In order to make it, you've got to create something cool, something that other people want. We do it out of necessity. And my point is about my self-realization at that time. And I'm thinking of our friend Gary Vaynerchuk. Yes. I wonder if he would agree with this. You have to at least be happy about the fact that you live in a place where you get to pursue happiness,

right? The pursuit of happiness. This is major. If you live in another country, for example, or maybe you live in another part of the U.S. where you're going to do what your dad did, or you're going to be in an arranged marriage, or you're going to be whatever we tell you to be. Or your social class prohibits you from achieving what you're able to achieve in this country, in this place. In New York City, for example.

I actually reminded myself at that time as I was struggling, I'm happy because I get to pursue what I want yeah i get to be like a real person out there i'm not in school they're not telling me what to do i'm not doing homework that i don't like or understand i get to and i understand that yes you wanted to be in show business yes you're going to have the terrible job as well okay i'm willing to do it why i get to pursue being in show business and it's fun and it's interesting it's what you want to do it. Why? I get to pursue being in show business. And it's fun. It's interesting. It's what you want to do. It's what I always wanted to do when I was a kid. And I love every aspect now of the business.

I always have. I love the acting, performing, writing, directing, editing, producing even. I love every aspect of the business except the business. The business is terrible. The creating the deals, the politics, everything. The politics of people and networks,

agendas, which aren't necessarily let's do the best thing. The thing that makes the most money. Exactly. So I don't care anything about that. I never did. Honestly. I never thought about the money.

And you made a lot of money because of it probably. You follow your passion. There's the lesson. You follow your passion. You do what you feel you were meant to do. You're open to other things like for me writing. Yeah. And it came by itself.

It was a byproduct of doing what you were passionate about. You can't say I want to make a million dollars. Now, there are people who do that. There are people, they work in other fields. Their goal is to make money, and I guess if you're single-minded enough, you will make that. I was single-minded in trying to do good work in my field. to do good work in my field, luck and I guess maintaining a level of quality guaranteed that the living would come.

Right. Right? You mean luck? Do you mean timing? You have to be lucky. Like I write, if I write a script in my apartment by myself at that time let's say i'm writing by myself about this comedian that i saw uh named ray romano he has a real family and what i don't know about his real family i'm going to put in my family and i'm going to write

stories about my family i'm going to put it in this one script and i'm hoping that somebody at cbs this one person who's in charge of comedy at CBS likes it enough to show it to their boss and let us film a pilot, one episode. That's all I'm hoping for. And then people need to like it and you can do another one. By the way, before that,

you have to get a cast and every single person has to be right for that part or the show is not a success. It doesn't even get on the air, right? The audience that's at the taping, they have to like it. It has to be shot well that part or the show is not a success it doesn't even get on the air right the audience that's at the taping they have to like it it has to be shot well enough so they can see it to like it right everything the editing work together all the planets have to line up for any of these things to even get on the air and then i always say it's not like winning the jackpot when you have a show that's successful it's like hitting the jackpot over and over and over again because so many things have to happen for us to run nine years and for it to still be on today. It has to be relevant and people have to like it. It has so many things that happen.

The network has to stay alive so you can keep running it. And they have to support you. And the people have to, yes, the people have to keep liking it. And you have to keep doing good work. You just don't ride on your coattails. We all know the shows start big and they peter out fast and then they're gone. Two seasons, maybe three seasons. That happens. So that's what I mean. Every show almost is a miracle.

We did 210. Every episode. Yes. Wow. 210 separate shows. They weren't like, oh, you just do 210 like it's a factory and the thing – you made the mold and you just put the chocolate in the mold and we just make 210. Every one of them, you're reinventing the thing again. Every one.

Amazing. How involved were you on all of those 210 episodes? Everything on every show. They call me the showrunner. That's the showrunner's job, to run the show. And I guess the equivalent in movies is the director, who oversees the whole production. That's what a showrunner does.

Wow. It's very important that it seems to have a unity of vision and a singular voice, you see? Otherwise, it's a mess of voices and not a clear vision. Yeah. So it has to be filtered. It helps, I think, to be filtered through one or two heads. Visions as opposed to 30 visions.

Now, I want to say also also I had tremendous team there I had the best comedy writers in the business Couldn't have done it without them I had the best sitcom actors in the business And I had Ray Romano Who's a comic genius Who's not only a great actor But a great writer

And my partner in this Couldn't have done it without him probably Wouldn't have worked probably Wouldn't have anything without him Wouldn't have anything without him He was a stand-up comedian He was struggling for his struggle He was struggling for 12 years

Just to get on the David Letterman show He got on once To do like a two minute segment Five minutes Letterman said after that five minute appearance There should be a show for that guy We're going to look for a writer To create a show for that guy They found me going to look for a writer to create a show for that guy.

They found me. I found him. I liked him. He liked me. Twelve years he was struggling. He was struggling, yes. And here I come. I was struggling myself.

Right. But look, luck, right? If we're not in the right place at the right time, that doesn't happen. Now, they say luck is the residue of design, right? He has to be have honed his act for 12 years to know his comic voice I have to hone my writing for so long

to know my voice to understand how to create I would say 5-6 years before I meet him okay because if it was your first year you wouldn't have been ready for it yes true I learned from not just the good shows, but I learned from bad shows. You learn what not to do.

Yeah. Plenty. Listen, that's as important. That's what I mean by these struggling years. Learning what not to do. Learning, let's say you have a shitty boss, right? Everybody does at some point or another. Learn from that guy.

Right. Not going to do that. Yeah, yeah. Not going to from that guy. Right. Not going to do that. Yeah, yeah. Not going to be that guy. Or your parents. You know, things you don't like about your parents, you can be like, okay, I'm not going to do that. Okay.

So how many people don't make the same mistakes as their parents? Well, some do. Some don't. A lot do. Yeah. I'm saying learn from other people's mistakes. Right. Or your siblings' mistakes or whatever.

Yes. Don't fall into the trap and say, that's my destiny. Right. No, you're your destiny. Yeah. You make it whatever. Yes. Don't fall into the trap and say that's my destiny. Right. No, you're your destiny. Yeah. You make it happen. Right. So when you launched the first season, what was the vision for you?

Was it we're going to do 210 episodes? No. 1,000? No. I want to make one good one so they like it enough to let me do another one. Right. Oh, they like that one? Maybe the, you know, we got picked up for six.

Six. That's what we got picked up for. And I was really nervous. How am I going to, I made one. I don't even know how to make a second one. Wow.

So I get nervous. Now, how am I going to do, I have to do six more of these? It almost killed me to do the one. Right? So I couldn't, if you told me

that you're going to now make 210, I would have dropped it. Wow. It's like the journey up the mountain begins with a single step, right? So you only can look at that one step ahead of you. You can't. If you try to say, oh, my God, I got a mountain to climb, kill yourself. Yeah.

It's like in sports. We talked about focusing on the game at hand, not the big game four weeks down the line, but what's happening right now. And by the way, not the game at hand, the play at hand. Exactly. Let's get this play. Every moment. Every moment. There's a great animation company called Aardman in England.

I don't know if you're familiar with Wallace and Gromit. Oh, yeah, of course. It's this stop motion animation. I love it. Okay? So the head guy there, they asked him, how does he do it? How do you envision that whole thing? How do you create that?

It takes a lot of time, brother. I feel that if I concentrate on the 1 24th of a second that I'm working on at any given time, the rest takes care of itself. Oh, my goodness. It's so much work. Isn't that a great lesson, though? Yeah. 1 24th. The 1 24th was because it's 24 frames a second.

A second. And every frame, they move it a tiny bit, the stop motion, and take a picture and then move it a tiny bit. And it's the whole scene with a train running through it and a waterfall and characters moving and talking. And so they're changing the lips on each character. A little bit. 1 24th of a second at a time. I wonder how long it takes to do one episode for that

or a movie. I think it takes a year, maybe a year and a half to do the seven minute thing. You need a lot of patience. Oh yeah. A lot of patience and a lot of concentration need a lot of patience. Oh yeah.

A lot of patience and a lot of concentration and a lot of devotion and you got to love it. Even the Warner Brothers cartoons, Bugs Bunny cartoons, a year and a half for three minutes. Oh my gosh.

Hand drawn. Every one. Hand drawn every frame. Greatness takes time I guess. Greatness takes time and devotion and dedication. Wow. Right?

Wow. What would you say is some of the biggest lessons you learned over those seasons, those 210 episodes about yourself? The best advice I ever got, I say this all the time, was from a great showrunner

named Ed Weinberger. He worked on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Taxi and other shows. And he was a little bit crazy in a funny way. But also, he said this to me, and I never forgot it. Do the show you want to do, because in the end, they're going to cancel you anyway.

Right? They did. They eventually did, right? No. We actually... You canceled it. We said we've done enough, and we don't have any more stories. And now it's finished and we want to end well.

It's very important to end well. We all know the shows that stayed on too long and didn't end well. And you know what happened? It tarnished the legacy. It did. So we wanted to get out. You want to get off the stage before somebody says, hey, you should get off the stage. You want to get out before you're injured. You want to get out before you're injured.

You want to get out before something bad happens. Yeah, you don't want to win a few Super Bowls and then keep trying to win. Listen, my father's 89 years old. He didn't want to stop driving. He says, I can still drive. And we're starting to see that, you know, this was almost an accident over here. This was an almost over here. I said, Dad, you know like when a comedian, you like comedians, you like watching comedy, they get off before they tell a bad joke.

They know when to stop. So let's stop driving now before something bad happens so you have a perfect record. Let's go out a winner, Dad. And that made sense to him and he gave us the keys. That's great. That's all you want. You want to get off before you become lousy if you care about what you're doing. Listen, they offered us lots of money to stay. Of course. It's not about the money. Right?

We have enough money. I mean, at that point. Yeah, you had all the money you needed. But there are people who say, I can't say no to that money. Because we've been trained to think that money is the thing. Or the identity you know this has been my identity for a decade now what am i going to do if i don't have this what was that show i love uh silicon valley on hbo put the mic back you ever you ever watch silicon valley i love

that show okay so there's a character who was a billionaire and he dropped to 900 million and he was like he's like i need another comment. He needs to be known as a billionaire. It's insane. Perfect metaphor for how we're almost trained to think in America. Yeah. Right? Was it the Three Comma Club or something? Or was it the Four Comma Club or whatever?

But that guy's obviously an idiot and a very good lesson. Yeah. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. Did you feel like your identity was tied up in the show for that long? Yeah. Or did you feel like – Yeah. That's important. Did you feel like your identity was tied up in the show for that long?

Yeah. Or did you feel like... Yeah. That's what I do. That's who I am. I make that show and I'm proud of it and I'm going to work my butt off

to make sure it's good every week. Yeah. Some shows are better than others. How could they not be? But there's a level you should never go below. Of course. I learned that in school too.

We had a professor who said, there's a level of quality you can't go below. And if we keep that line in our heads, maybe our work is better. Right? Yeah. Otherwise, we have no standards. Right. So it's good to have standards. What was a show that you did that you felt like it went below there?

Everything else. Everything else. Because, look, I had, as my friend used to say, you got the horses on that show. You got the horses, meaning the great actors and the great writers too. I had everything working right. And you're at the right time. Yes, I try in my work not to go below a certain level that I can live with and I quit. I quit if it's not good.

And when I go and speak to kids at schools, I go to colleges and talk to people sometimes, I tell them that I'm only half joking. If you take one thing away from this meeting today, always quit. Okay. What does that mean?

Quit if the iced tea isn't cold enough? No. If the level is unsatisfactory to you, if you feel like you're getting so many notes that it's now diminished what you had in mind, you have no recourse but to leave. All we come with is ourselves and all we can go with is with ourselves. No, you cannot ruin me. I won't allow it. I have

standards if you don't. Now, am I being political when I do that? Am I playing them? Am I trying for something? No. I really mean it. When I quit and it's agonizing. It's not something I do lightly. But sometimes you I quit, and it's agonizing. It's not something I do lightly. But sometimes you have to go because it's not going to be right.

And if it's not right and you've tried everything, I'm not saying quit on the first day. I'm saying you've tried everything. You see the train is going to hit that wall. Jump off that train. Yeah, right, right. Jump off that train. We try to, if the train is going to hit the wall, we try to take the wheel. We try to steer it so it doesn't.

But if you see it at the last minute, oh, my God. You've got to get out of there. You've got to – because your name is all you have. That's it. And when did you realize that it was like – now is the time. Was it the seventh season where you're like, okay, maybe I've got a couple seasons left? Or was it like during the last season where you're like, oh, this is it? No, I planned it.

Really? Yeah. Because I learned from the shows that I loved that went before us. Smart. Well, why not learn from the best? Yeah. So you see these things that you love and you try to emulate them. You try to use them, use the good examples then.

Yeah. What were the shows that inspired you? The Honeymooners, Dick Van Dyke Show, All in the Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Taxi, Roseanne, the Cosby Show of the 80s. These shows had something in common. of the 80s, these shows had something in common. The Odd Couple, they were all filmed in front of a live audience, so they were like theater,

which I liked. I liked hearing the laughs, the real laughs, not the fake canned laughs. Tell people to clap. And they all took place on planet Earth, meaning the stuff that happened in those shows could happen on Earth.

Real life stuff, yeah. Yeah. It wasn't so crazy and exaggerated that you didn't believe it. I happened to like, even as a child, the shows that I believed. And the ones that were just silly, I didn't care for them so much. Yeah. So I was going to have one rule at Everybody Loves Raymond, could this happen? That's all.

Wow. rule at Everybody Loves Raymond, could this happen? That's all. Wow. And we always found whenever we were stuck, like now what happens in the story when we're sitting around the table, all the writers thinking, what will this story, now what happens in the story? Well, maybe this could happen. Maybe this could happen. Maybe this could happen. And we go around sometimes for an hour, two hours.

For one scene. For one moment. Wow. Now what happens? Because we're trying to tell a story now what don't you know that always

somebody one of us idiots who didn't say this earlier who was thinking says what would

really happen hmm well what would really happen is she would say this and then this and this and that

so why don't we do that and that's probably the don't we do that? And that's probably the funniest thing. Well, it leads to a funny thing because if you're funny, you're going to make that real thing funny. You're going to say a funny line. It's going to trigger other things. But start with real. I tell aspiring writers, keep a journal.

Why? Because it's easier to write things down than to write. It's easier to write down what really happens to you than to come up with shit, right? So take notes of your day, and it's going to be unique. Why? Because you're unique. You can't help it. You're not like me.

I'm not like you. I'm not like him. I have my head as screwed up as it is. And the way I see things through these eyes and hear things through these ears and think things through this stupid head, it comes out different than if you write the same exact series of events. So I tell people, you already got what you need. It's you. We don't think that's anything. What do you mean me? I'm nobody.

No, you are somebody. The way you think and the way you feel is unique to you. It makes you different from you. The easy cliche to say is write what you know. But it's a cliche for a reason.

Right. You probably wouldn't have a writer's block if you're just writing down the things that happen every day. Yes, but we think that's nothing. And by the way, a lot of times it won't be something, but once in a while it will be something. So you know how a photographer takes a lot of pictures and then three or four are amazing? Same with writing.

But it might have taken thousands of photos to get to that. Yeah. That's how you see the great photos. Right? Yeah. That's how everything great is. What would you say is your superpower from all the things that you've learned and all the experiences? What's the one thing that makes you stand out from most people?

If you had a superpower, what would that be? Boy, I think I can – and this is something that's been told to me and I've come to accept. I can walk on a stage and I can fix it. I know the difference because of my training between a writing problem, an acting problem, and even a directing problem. And so I can fix it. I can fix it by either writing it. I can fix it by talking to the actor. I can fix it by staging it differently.

I know how to fix it. So that's the thing I think other people are funnier than me I think other people are more handsome than me I think other people are Smarter Smarter than me, certainly Yeah

But I can do that And that is applicable That's a gift That's applicable to things in life too So I'm lucky That's great What other things in life do you feel like that comes to the table too?

Well, you want to be able to navigate other human beings and other problems that come up not just out in the world but in your house, right? With your children, with your wife, with whoever it is.

You want to be able to. Now, am I as good at home as I am on a soundstage? No. Because on the soundstage, they have to be able to. Now, am I as good at home as I am on a soundstage? No. Because on the soundstage, they have to listen to me. At home, they tell me what to do, and I usually do it. Right. Usually.

Yeah. I love that. You've had all this success. You've had this incredible career. People want you to speak at all the universities. Any writer would love to sit down and have this conversation with you. We're doing it now. Right.

But listen, listen to the thing. I'm not saying anything to you that I wouldn't say to the writer. Yeah. I'm treating you as if you're – Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Well, you're asking me. And all the writers listening, hopefully they're getting a lot out of this.

Well, even if you're not a writer. Right. I'm hoping that what I'm saying, what we're talking about is applicable. I appreciate it. Well, you're asking me, so I tell you. And all the writers listening, hopefully they're getting a lot out of this. Well, even if you're not a writer. Right. I'm hoping that what I'm saying, what we're talking about is applicable. Of course it is. Absolutely. The TV show, I'll have what Phil's having, is applicable. I want you to connect. That's all we do as human beings on the planet is connect with other people.

Right? Yes. For me, food, sitting around a table, is how mankind's always interacted, around the campfire, over the bison we just killed with our sticks, right? Or fancy meal. We're sitting, we have to eat. We have to eat. We may as well eat together. So that's where all that comes from. Now, what cements us to each other? I think sense of humor. Underrated value. As much as we love it, underrated. Why?

Because the emphasis in our culture is on hotness, is on cuteness, right? Is on, oh, I want to be with them, you know, physically. But what lasts, I think what makes us friends is an appreciation of each other's sense of humor. Yeah. And I'll go one step further appreciation of each other's sense of humor. Of course, yeah. And I'll go one step further. I say it's who we marry. We either laugh at the same things or appreciate the other person's sense of humor.

And I'll tell you something. I've seen it. Once the laughs go, you go. What do you have? If it's not fun anymore, then what's the point? Listen, you could be, here's what society, here's what the people who are selling you every product under the sun

and television show never say. The physical thing, that has to fade. Of course. Right? So it may work for a few years.

No one stays hot and desirable forever to everybody. That's just a, that's television. That's a fake world. Yeah. What does keep you together, I think, is we smile and laugh and enjoy the same things.

Do you have any principles that you live by with your wife where you're like, every day I need to make her laugh or every day we tell jokes to each other? Is there something that you do? She's very funny. I'm hopefully funny. And we just go through life. And every day we make each other? Is there something that you do? She's very funny. I'm hopefully funny. And we just go through life. And every day we make each other laugh. Not because we're trying to,

but because she knows what to say to make me laugh. And I think I know. You know, that doesn't mean it's perfect all the time. Of course. It's real life. She's really mad at me sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And you with her probably. Well, she's so annoying.

No, I... But if you wouldn't have the laughs, do you think you'd still be together? No. I really don't. I'd called my book, You're Lucky You're Funny, which is something she said to me in the middle of being really mad at me. Wow. Wow.

So that saved my life. Or at least the relationship. Because it's all I got. Right. Right? It saved my life when I was getting beat up in school by boys like you on the football team. I was bullied, by the way. You were really?

Oh, yeah. That's why I joined sports and started getting active because – You were picked on. Were you a little kid? I was tall, skinny, scrawny, but I was very – I was in all the special needs classes with like me and three kids in wheelchairs because I couldn't read or write until high school. Wow. And I couldn't comprehend schoolwork.

Look how great you turned out. That's fantastic. Well, it made me learn how to connect with people in a different way and learn how to use different tools to build relationships as opposed to using my smarts. Yes. So, yeah. Fantastic. But I was just like you.

But that's fantastic. So I was even – not only was I skinny and scrawny and shorter, so I was the boy most likely to get his books kicked out of his hands in the mall. Right. Right? And I was picked on and I was like, and this is a cliche, you develop the sense of humor

because it's your defense. It's your one way of connecting. It's your one way to get girls. There you go. I mean, funny guys can get any girl they want, it seems like. I couldn't. If you've got humor.

No, I guess I wasn't that funny. But I had, that's all I had. You use what you have. Now, how does someone, let's say they don't think they're funny, that's all I had. You use what you have. Now, how does someone, let's say they don't think they're funny, they can't tell jokes, I'm not a comedian, I'm never going to be one, but how can they cultivate humor or cultivate storytelling, timing? Because a lot of humor is timing. Yes.

And the space between the things we say, I would think. So how do you do that? How do you cultivate being funny? You can't. You can't. No, I'm kidding. There you go. I'm kidding.

Let's end it. If you love it, though, if you have an appreciation for it, find out what you're attracted to. In other words, why does that comedian make me laugh? Why does that show make me laugh? That actually becomes your sense of humor. The things that make us laugh are our senses of humor. That defines us, right?

And you can't help but pick up on certain things. I'm not saying imitate that, but it can't help form your personality. And then I know this is a terrible thing to say because it means nothing. Be yourself, right? I don't know who the hell that is, says the person listening. Who is myself? I don't know who the hell that is says the person listening who is myself i don't know who myself is you know ray charles one of the great singers of all time when he started if you listen to his records when he first started he sounded exactly like someone who

came before him called nat king cole he was imitating him of course listen not a terrible place to start right he then once was accepted as a singer, started developing his own style. Yeah. So it's okay to emulate other things. I think all musicians do this. They emulate Pearl Jam or the Beatles. They listen to people that influence them. Writers as well.

Actors. If you talk to any actor, any comedian, they will tell you when they started, they were just trying to imitate who they liked. Yeah, exactly. So that's it. That's it. I like it. A few questions left for you.

I love this. I feel like we can do this for another hour. Thank you. What's something, again, you've done all these incredible things. The show has been so successful. It's still running. I thought it was still happening.

They just started in India. It's crazy. It's called Everybody Loves Sumit. Yeah. So it's amazing. And you're getting all this recognition constantly for all this. What's something you've done that's small or maybe something that – something you've done that people don't know about? How about a show on PBS?

Six episodes. How about that? We'll get to that too in a second. But something that – That is it. You already got to it. Something that people don't know about- That I did?

That you've done that you're really proud of. The book. The book. Nobody reads a book. Who reads a book? I'm telling you, get this book. Don't even buy the book. Go to iTunes and download audio.

It's like having me in the car with you for seven hours. It's a good thing you're funny. Is that what it's called? You're lucky you're funny. You're lucky you're funny. How life becomes a sitcom. So I'm using the example of our show, Raymond, to show you how you can take maybe terrible things that have happened in your life and turn them into something positive. Using the example of making one of these shows.

And I'm very specific. And so it's in colleges now as a textbook. People call it the world's funniest textbook. That's great. Now, as a textbook, people call it the world's funniest textbook. That's great. But it's personal stories and taking those personal stories and making them into something that maybe someone else would care about, right? I love that. Because it's relatable. I love that.

A couple of questions left for you. Sure. What are you most grateful for in your life recently? My family. My beautiful wife and kids who are, you know, you don't even realize it. You take it for granted sometimes, but they're there.

And, you know, I want to get up every morning and one of my kids is 21 and he's a junior in college in New York, so I don't see him every day. But my daughter is 18 and she's a senior in high school, and it's one of the joys of my life.

I realize that I'm not going to have this forever, and you don't realize until it's almost gone that I got to get downstairs before she leaves for school. I got to be home. When she's home, she has a life. I want to see her. Because she's going to be going off to college. But I've always wanted to do that. I've always wanted to at least see the kids in the morning and be home.

Even from Raymond, where it's a hard job, come home for dinner every night. That was a value. That was a value. First of all, if you worked for me, I would tell you it's part of the job. Go home, get in a fight with your wife, come back in and tell me about it because that's the show. Right. Right? So 90% of what you saw on the show happened to me.

Order Ray, order one of the other writers. We were writing from the stuff that happens. So again, you got to have a real life if you're going to write about it. Right? I love that. That's very, very important. And, you know, at the end of the day, when we're all canceled one day, you want to be able to say, I did the thing I wanted to do. I did the show I wanted to do.

I lived my life the way I wanted to live. And you have to realize what's important because at the end of the day, your family and your friends and being good to other people in the world and giving something back to the world and being grateful, this is at the center of every religion in the world. My joke is for my show, if those boys from ISIS would just sit down with me and have some chocolate cake, everything would be okay. Right? I think I saw that in your trailer maybe or something. You want to put something good out there. There's enough bad. Most things are terrible.

Right. Exactly. Right? It's like the photographs. We take many, many photographs. Most things are terrible. That's just how it is. Exactly.

But you got to take a lot to get to the good. Sure. So it's always been that way. It's not that television stinks now no there's just a lot of television and because most things are terrible and have always been terrible there's just more of everything now right right there's more good too yeah because there's more everything exactly right i. Well, this is leading into one of my final two questions. If the show wasn't on and Everyone Loves Raymond was gone, canceled from everywhere, and no one could watch it anymore, and everything you've ever created was gone. Yeah. But you got to write one final script, one final show. And in this show, you had three things you could write down,

the three truths you know to be true about your experience from everything you've learned about writing, life, relationships, the world. Three lines. The three truths that you would hand over to the world. I think we covered them. If we could wrap it up in a bow, what would those three truths be? Do the show you want to do because in the end,

they're going to cancel you anyway. Right? Most things are terrible. Always quit. There you go. The three truths. I love it. Perfect.

Before I ask the final question, where can we follow you online? And again, let's talk about… Social media. Yes. Where should we follow you? What's… My name is Phil… At Phil Rosenthal on Twitter. There I am.

Are you on Instagram? I am. Phil.Rosenthal on Instagram. Okay. And I think it's Phil Rosenthal or Phil Rosenthal official or official Phil Rosenthal on Facebook. Perfect. You know, my daughter said she's 18. She gave me this rule.

Here's Lily Rosenthal's rules. You ready? Let's hear it. Twitter is for funny things. Twitter is for funny things. Instagram is for beautiful things. Facebook is for old people things. Wow. There you go.

What Facebook used to be for college kids. Yeah, but now look. Yeah, because those college kids then got older. That's true, yeah. The kids are on Snapchat or Instagram now. I don't care. Just watch my show. There you go.

The show is on Monday nights, 10 o'clock Eastern or 10 o'clock Central? 10 o'clock everywhere except New York. Wait a minute. Go back. 10 o'clock, 9 o'clock Central. There's always Central. 10 o'clock, 9 o'clock Central, 8 o'clock in New York only.

Why they do it that way, I don't know. But here's the thing. If you just remember the name, I'll have what Phil's having. You put it in your DVR, you don't care what channel or when it's on. It's on when you want it to be on. There you go. I love it. And can you watch it online right afterwards on iTunes and everywhere else?

You can see it on iTunes. You can see it on PBS.org. You can see it probably on your watch. There you go. Awesome. Watch the show. We'll have it linked up on the show notes after this. We'll have the book linked up.

Beautiful. All your social media. One final question. What's your definition of greatness? Sitting with you. On this podcast. Sitting with you. This is great for me. I'm lucky. Everything, you know, my friend

Norman Lear, you know who that is? He created All in the Family and about a dozen other world, he's the most influential creator of television in the world who's ever lived. Right? I mean, he changed the world, this man. He's 93. He's my friend.

Okay? Norman Lear. Remember that name. Follow him. I will. He has a book. Even this I get to experience about his life. So for me, you know, I remember that.

And so sitting with you today is an honor for me. It's great. You're a great guy. We had a great conversation. It's very nice. So that's great. There you go. I love it. Well, I want to acknowledge you, Phil, for your creativity, what you put out in the world, your energy, and most of all, your humor, because I feel like you're making the world a better place by keeping things light, which could be dark, and keeping things fun, which could be stressful, when at the end of the day, it's all a story and it's how we perceive it.

So I want to thank you for that. Acknowledge you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it. I hope to see you again. Yeah, of course. And there you have it, guys.

Thank you so, so much for showing up today. Make sure to head back to the show notes to watch the full video interview at lewishouse.com slash 244 and share this with your friends. Let Phil know what you thought about this episode. Tweet him, message him online. All his information is back at lewishouse.com slash 244. Thank you guys so, so very much. The dream is coming true, and it's all because of you and

your support with this podcast. Thank you. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.