The School of Greatness - 266 Alanis Morissette on Fame, Finding Purpose, and Emotional Healing

Episode Date: December 14, 2015

"Greatness is self-knowledge expressed." - Alanis Morissette If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/266

This is episode number 266 with Alanis Morissette. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to a very special edition of the School of Greatness podcast.

I'm so excited for our guest today. I had a pleasure of sitting down and connecting with the one and only Alanis Morissette. And for those that don't know who Alanis is, let me just share a little bit about her. Since 1995, Alanis has been one of the most influential singer-songwriter musicians in contemporary music. She's earned seven Grammy Awards with an additional 14 nominations, a Golden Globe nomination, and sales of over 60 million albums worldwide. Golden Globe nomination, and sales of over 60 million albums worldwide. In 2015, Alanis was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame, and outside of entertainment, she's an avid supporter of female empowerment as well as spiritual, psychological, and physical wellness. And we had an incredible time on this interview, and I want to share a few of the things that

you're going to take away from this among many of the other points that she talks about in this interview. And I want to share a few of the things that you're going to take away from this among many of the other points that she talks about in this session. And one is how to heal in relationships, not actually after the breakup healing, but during a relationship, how to heal in relationships. And she talks about some of the relationships she's been in and what she's learned from those relationships, the idea of multiple intelligences and how the education system doesn't make room for those with our kids. How Western society has allowed for men and women to both have beta and alpha roles in recent years. What Alanis has been up to, her thoughts on staying relevant and what famous means to her and her message and her mission for

what she's up to moving forward. I'm very excited about this. So please make sure to share this message out to the world. Share this with your friends on social media, lewishouse.com slash 266. Let's get the word out there about this one. And if you are a new listener to the podcast, make sure to head back to iTunes and click the subscribe button because we've got some great guests coming up. And we do this every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, all about teaching you how to become great in your life, your business, your relationships, your spirituality, your health. how to become great in your life, your business, your relationships, your spirituality, your health.

And I'm so excited to bring and introduce to you the one and only Alanis Morissette. Welcome everyone back to the podcast. I'm very excited today. We have an incredible guest, Alanis Morissette. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited.

Right when I walked into your office, I was like, I feel healed already. It smells good in here. It smells good. There's like crystals and all these spiritual books and everything's feng shui. And I'm like, oh, I just feel like at peace. Everything's going to be okay when you're in here. And you have a bed in your office. I was like, this is amazing.

I learned that from Jenji Cohen, who is the creator of Weeds. I went in for my initial meeting with her and she had a bed in her room. I fell to my knees. I just thought, this is the most genius woman I've ever met. And she has a bed in her room. Yeah. Way better than just a couch or a futon. Yeah. If you're going to go for an actual 16 minute nap, you want to go horizontal. I love this. Um, so I'm so excited. Uh, I want to dive in and, and speak to your heart right off the bat. Okay. That's the best thing you'll be able to do. Right? And I'm curious, who was the most influential person for you growing up before you reached

22? My grandmother on my maternal side, I would say. They escaped during the revolution in Hungary in 1956. My mom and my aunt and my grandfather, who actually passed away when I was two months old, so I never really hung out with him, but just everything my grandmother went through and her European, amazing feistiness fire. I feel like it's in my bones and in my soul.

So she was, she was also the woman that just would hold me. I think touch is such a big deal in the world. Absolutely. You know, appropriate touch. Well, that's the thing in America too.

I think a lot of people under touch each other like crazy because we're all afraid of sexual harassment or sexual inappropriate behavior, but we're all walking around for the needy. That's my love language. It's like, yeah, when I feel touched, when someone touches me, it's like, I just, you don't have to say anything. Yeah. I feel everything's okay. Everything is okay.

Just rub my face. Pet me like a dog. Yes. I don't care. Yeah. Just touch me. Everything is okay. Just rub my face, pet me like a dog. I don't care. Just touch me. It is. I'm glad everyone listening knows that. Everyone knows that. So yes, appropriately, if you're not my girlfriend or in a relationship with me, yes. So your grandmother, right? Yeah. And what's the biggest lesson you learned from her growing up? I think her empowerment. She was always an alpha. And I had been around, I mean, I you learned from her growing up? I think her empowerment. She was always an alpha.

And I had been around, I mean, I was mired, the whole planet was mired still, unfortunately, in patriarchy and a little bit of misogyny and a little bit of disempowered versions of alpha beta. We talked about that briefly before we got on. But anyway, so she was a walking example of this empowered female presence that was unapologetic about being an alpha. Yeah. So I was in context where if I was an alpha, I felt like I was literally going to get stabbed in the face and my head was going to get chopped off. So I kept looking at her going, well, she's still alive. She's not, you know, she's not getting chopped down.

Her wings aren't being clipped. And this is growing up in Canada too, right? Yeah. Canada and Germany. We were there for a few years. A few years, right. But you don't speak it. That was when you were like five, right?

Three to six. So you don't speak any. I used to, but it's completely gone. People say it's in my unconscious. I'm not so sure about that. Yeah, right. Exactly. Okay.

Yeah. So she taught you about how you could be this presence and not get your head cut off. Yeah. Have an opinion. Be empowered. I mean, not to say that i didn't experiment with being reduced sure and low self-esteem i mean i feel like i've been through every emotion possible right yes and every version of self-hate all the way to self-love so um but she was i kept

referencing her and then also she you know i'd come home like this prodigal daughter granddaughter in her case and she would just hold me and just say, oh, sweetheart, you're working too much. And she was great at mirroring. I just think it's such a big stage of development to have people verbally say back to you what they see. And I was in all these different contexts where I was being exploited. And as a young prodigy, a lot of people were saying certain things back to me in order to get something. My grandmother had no need to get anything. She was a giver for Wow. From me. Okay. That's awesome. What about your parents? Which one influenced you more? I think they both did. You know, there were, there were challenges and beauties to our interaction to be totally transparent. I think with most people, there's,

there's a few different colors going on, but one the the most amazing qualities i think that they instilled in me was a sense of limitlessness um and they used to just say you gotta be a go-getter you gotta be a go-getter so sometimes that was actually a little extreme because there are times where i actually don't want to go get i want to go lie down and actually my dad was really good at that my dad's very sensual totally totally into wine, travel, internationalism. I think Canada is pretty good for that too. There was after high school, a lot of people don't go to university or college right away. They go traveling the planet. It's almost like a rite of passage. So my family, both parents instilled that love of the planet. Really? Everyone in Canada does that? Most people? I mean, most. In the UK and Europe, they do that too. Yes.

They go for like a year or two. Yeah. And in America, it just seems as though you graduate from high school and then you're right into college. Yeah. Obsessively so almost. Yeah. And I, you know, my parents are both teachers and they've been teaching since, you know, for 40 some odd years. So education is huge in me. I'm unschooling my son. I'm obsessed with the multiple intelligences. Did you say you're unschooling him? What does that mean? It means educating him in a very organic way. And I do reference Howard Gardner, the multiple intelligence theory, because I just think we have so many intelligences. People say, oh, you're so smart.

And I often follow up with, well, smart how? Like physically smart, intellectually smart, socially smart, intrapersonally, like internal interiority smart. What kind of smart am I? Or you or anyone, frankly. So as long as a lot of the intelligences are considered in my interaction with him, which they are every day, I feel he's being educated well. So he's not going to a specific traditional school. No. School of life.

And I have to tell you. School of greatness. Dot I have to tell you. School of greatness. It's okay. Dot com. Right here. Yeah. I want to make sure he's highly educated and that he's exposed to as much as he possibly can be.

And of course, if he wants to go to conventional schooling, I would only support that. Sure. You know, it's interesting not to talk about me, but just to mention. Why not? You're here. You know, I was always in the bottom four of my class all the way through high school. In what area though? On the grade card. So on the grade card, I went to a private boarding school when I was in eighth grade and they would rank us for our class.

Under what terms? For the GPA. Okay. Got it. The highest GPA, you were number one. If you were the lowest GPA in that class for that semester, you were number one, the last one. And I knew how many students were in our class. So I was always in the bottom four. So the, I mean, it just always made me feel ignorant, stupid, not worthy and not smart enough. It's not awesome the way that they can judge and assess and testing. And then it doesn't take into consideration temperaments because some people are quote unquote pure geniuses, but under the, under the terms of the context of a test, yes,

cortisol levels are up, the brain's gone, everything's offline. You're like, I can't access my genius. So, you know, not to completely unequivocally just diss the entire education system on the planet, but I'm going to, no, there's just room for, for having each unique snowflake of a creature have their own way and style and brain and everything be considered how they learn. And that's why, you know, I never really believed in school, but I believed in growth and education. And that's why I was like, I want to create a school of greatness.

That's not about like traditional learning. Yes. So thank you for being a professor. Oh, you got it. To all the students in the world. I'll give any keynote talks. Exactly. Yes. So thank you for being a professor. Oh, you got it. To all the students in the world. I'll give any keynote talks. Exactly, exactly. So you've been unschooling, but your parents are teachers.

Yes. That's interesting. What do they think about that? I mean, they're so obsessed with education, especially my father. My mom's obsessed with education, but in a service-oriented way. Not that my dad doesn't serve, but he's obsessed more in the curriculum and the curriculum and cross section of what's available content wise. Yeah. So, um, they, they love it. They respect me. They, they know what I'm up to. They don't think that he should be in school. And to be honest, I don't actually care what anybody thinks. And, uh, yeah, I want to make

sure my son's hyper-educated and, um, and loved and that his style of learning will be taken into consideration. That's cool. So how are you handling that? Are you teaching him? Do you bring in other experts to teach certain things? It's a combination. And it's exhausting. I just want to make sure I say that.

I mean, taking this on is an undertaking. It's three people's full-time job, if nothing more. Wow. But it's worth it to me. And yeah, we have some people come in. He has a big community of aunts and uncles, all of whom have this area of jurisdiction where they shine. And, you know, one brings in art and we make mobiles, you know, Uncle Eric.

And then other, you know, other women come in and we do yoga and dancing. And it's not even overly planned. It's very child-led. So he may stay in some moments working on a project literally for four hours straight and then other things will present it to him and he has a three-second bandwidth for it and we're done wow what a lucky kid yeah i feel lucky not forced to like go through these every hour of different learning not rigid structure wow i just think the years wasted of spending time

on things that probably didn't support me in any way. Weren't supporting the you-ness being fluffed. Right. You know, in a lot of ways, I look at education as like the people skills that I learned, the connecting with people, working on teams with my peers, the sports that I played, I would never take that back. And without school, I wouldn't have been able to develop as a human in those extracurricular activities where I did thrive. Yes. We have to talk about the great parts of school. Exactly.

Right? Yeah. Me too. The socialization. Basically the social parts. Yeah. I did love English and drama. You know, we did a lot of acting.

Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is one of my great memories in school. In English class, I was playing the female part and my teacher took on the male part. And the poor fellow students were subject to our just basically going through the whole play in English class. But the linguistic intelligence, that sort of wordsmithness, I was drooling. So there were classes that stood out and then others that just I was barely there, sleeping. I was sleeping almost every day. It was like, plus I was eating the worst foods ever because I wasn't educated on my health. And our brains aren't even happening.

I'm just eating like Pop-Tarts all day or something. Macaroni and cheese, which, you know, has its moment. Yeah, it does. They all have their moments. Truffled macaroni and cheese. You cannot beat that. There's some great truffled mac and cheese in that town. In LA, yeah.

Oh my goodness. Yes. I want to know about your biggest heartbreak from your teen years. What was the boyfriend? Oh, you mean romantic heartbreak? Yes. Because there's so many versions of heartbreak. Of course.

Of course. I mean, like, the boy that, man, just took it all away, just stole your soul or just, like, made you feel like, oh, like this ache, this agony. Who was that? Maybe you don't have to tell me the name, but what was the experience? We'll call him Oliver. Okay. It was, I think in terms of temperament and Elaine Aron, who talks about highly sensitive

people are non-highly sensitive. 20% of people are highly sensitive animals as well. Yeah. And that doesn't mean non-highly sensitive people are not sensitive. It well. Yeah. And that doesn't mean non highly sensitive people are not sensitive. It just means it's a trait. Yes. So a highly sensitive person walks in the room and they get 500 pieces of information.

A non highly sensitive walks in a room, gets 50 pieces of information. So they lane Aaron says that the highest amount of satisfaction is when two highly sensitives are together. Okay. That doesn't mean that other versions of couplings aren't awesome. Right. Um,

so this one particular person was highly sensitive and so was I, we were both, you know, pretty traumatized. So there was that love addiction thing going on as well. And then just straight up chemistry. Yeah. How old were you when this?

I was in my mid teensens 16 and i had two lives going on so i would be at school and then i would go to the studio and work in the studio till two or three in the morning really and then come back to class and that's the class i would sleep in in the morning because we're like this is boring it was not i mean god bless it was history and actually appreciated history but i had had four hours sleep. Yeah, yeah. So there was the my age, chronological age world. And then there were all the people I was hanging out with who were 20 years old.

You were an adult at night and a teenager during the day. Yes. Interesting. And when did that start? You were like 12 to 14 range when you were? Yeah, I started a record company when I was 10. What? Because.

A little entrepreneur. A little freak of nature. Pretty precocious, but also sensitive and terrifying. I think what was happening then was nobody was signing kids. Now they sign you when you're an embryo. You know, like you have talent. Let's sign you. You have one YouTube hit.

Yeah, right. How do we cha-ching get you? Right. So then I just thought, okay, I had shopped a deal, if you can believe it. I had made a record, written songs, around nine with a friend of the family. Around nine? Yeah. And it came out when I was 11 on our label that we started because there was no other way to do it.

So that had kick-started my passion for songwriting. And it was by no means autobiographical at that point. There was not much content. It's like the boy on the playground pretty much well i wish it was more about like more mature relationships but it was still fictional it was still fantasy that's funny but that's when i started to have this this double life of older slightly sometimes inappropriate dynamics where i was thrust into these environments where I could fake that I was a little more mature and poised, but I was still a child. Yeah. Yeah. And then there were, you were 11. Of course you were a child. I mean,

I didn't even be surprised though. When I was 25, I didn't even know what I was doing in my life. You know what I mean? It's like you were 10. Yes. That's crazy. Okay. So when did you move to LA when you were about, was it 19 that I read? Mm-hmm. Okay. Had you been to LA before then? I had. Okay.

Yeah. I had been down here during the Olympics when I was 10 years old. I think that was- That's awesome. That was great. That's amazing. I went to my first Olympics in London, the last one. Oh.

What event? I went to some beach volleyball. They went to a couple of basketball games and then the handball. Do you know handball? Very European. I play on the USA national team. Oh, cool. So yeah, I've been, I moved to New York city to go, to go make this team to train and learn this new sport. Cause it's always been a dream to play in the Olympics. So I found a sport that I felt like I could make the USA national team. Good for you. And then I trained for the last four and a half years, and we didn't qualify for this upcoming Olympics.

Okay. So it's just been a journey of going after my dreams. We didn't make it happen. But I went to go watch and experience. I played against some of the national teams that were playing in the Olympics. So it was just cool to go say, hey, I played against these guys from the Olympics, and watch it live and be like, oh, they're kind of like my buddies. Yeah, no kidding.

The Olympics are unbelievable. The energy there. Although I was horrified a few years ago when I was watching. I used to competitively swim for years and I remember watching. You did? What, in high school?

Yeah. Really? We trained eight days a week. It was crazy. Like twice on Sundays. How are you training for a sport up all night recording music, going to school all day? Yeah, that's...

No wonder you're so angry. Well, I was... I'm just kidding. I'm exhausted. No, it's actually work addiction 101. I mean, I was a work addict. That's how I cut my teeth. That was the perfect addiction.

Because it's the respectable addiction in America. This gentleman, Brian Robinson, I've been working with for years, actually now, almost maybe a couple of years, who's a genius. He wrote the work addiction, sort of the seminal book, Diana Fassel and Brian Robinson wrote the seminal books in my mind on work addiction recovery. And he's been helping me, but it starts early. It starts with the overachieving thing. I know, you know, nothing about that. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so a lot of people look at the overachieving child, the straight-A creatures or whatever, and they go, wow, this person's amazing. Meanwhile, they're actually kind of suffering.

Why do you think you were pursuing the overachievement in your teens? Well, it was one way to be loved. If I was moderate or if I was even, quote-unquote, less than average, I would be even more invisible than I was, you know? So for me, it was about being seen. And I could tell there were certain things that were on people's radars, you know? Oh, my talent. Oh, my brain.

Oh, my poison, whatever. The top 10 things, fill in the blank, were the things that got the attention that I was so starving for. Why were you starving for? Were your parents not seeing you? In some ways, yeah. We're like brother and sister.

I was the youngest of four, and I never felt seen or acknowledged or getting the love that I wanted because my parents were just working multiple jobs, trying to take care of us. It's like they were crazy because there's four kids running around the house. Yes. So there's nothing to blame them. And we're not even taking into consideration all the other internal stuff that's going on for them. Yeah. And they were fighting constantly and not happy because they got married when they were 18.

Yeah. Because they were pregnant. Whatever they were up to. And they weren't living their dreams. So it's like they had their resentments. And the consciousness level was different then. They weren't, you know, it wasn't a thing. Right.

To do that. To make sure that the stages of development are. Exactly. The boxes are checked. And I mean, that wasn't even a conversation. It's almost barely one now, you know. just starting. Yeah, it's starting. So you felt like they were never, uh, fully seeing you for, or just loving you and acknowledging you as the child you were. Well, they were doing the best they could. And I definitely felt loved. There were just so many

aspects of my humanity that were just missed in the crossfire. You know, that's what I say. I felt loved. Like my dad always tucked me in and told me he loved me, but I didn't like. It's the specificity of the mirroring. So the stages of development crassly quickly is the touch and the holding. Yes. I grew up in the, you know, I was born in the 70s. So wasn't, you know, this is a time feminism also, context is huge to take into consideration around this.

So my mom went back to work right away. My twin brother and I were born. I asked, you know, I was basically wondering about the touch eye contact thing. There's certain key things that happen during that stage where ideally we want the skin on skin eye contact thing or breastfeeding if mom could do it or not, you know, like just being able to have that stage development considered. Then the exploration stage. Am I bonded and attached enough to move out into the world?

Or is there no one there and moving out into the world is scary? Or is moving out into the world the only option I have? Then the third one is identity, the mirroring. And not just mirroring two or three things. They call that concave mirroring, where if they just go, I'm going to mirror that you're a great athlete and that you're handsome and that you like cars. What about the six billion other aspects of you? Right.

All right. So the mirroring that can be inaccurate or straight up mirroring that's not accurate, like walking in the house and you go, I'm freezing. And your parent goes, no, you're not. Sit down for dinner. You're fine. Yeah. You're like, your eyes are crossing.

But I do feel cold, but maybe I don't. And maybe I'm wrong. And maybe my impulses are wrong. And maybe my impulses are wrong. And if my impulses are wrong, I'm wrong. I can't trust myself. I can't trust anyone at all. Yes. And then the fourth one is competence.

Can I do it? So then some parents on the continuum do the hyper. Not only can you do it, you're going to be the next president. You're going to be number one. You're going to win every award. And you're just like, oh, Jesus, the pressure. Because the best thing is its own, for me anyway, it's its own violence, right? And then the other end of the continuum, which is you're good for nothing.

You can't. You'll never do this. You know, smirking when you have a dream, all that stuff. So that's a very crass version of the first four. And so I just think of how complicated it is to even sometimes understand it, let alone to have parents apply it, let alone to have them apply it when they're freaked out and they're wounded and they're in a context where they don't have enough energy. And know when to apply it. How do you know what they actually need and want? The art of parenting and doing it well enough and not thinking that as a parent,

you have to be perfect. So there's all that. What do you think was missing from you growing up or missing from your experience growing up that you wish you would have had? Um, more feminism, just more of a, I think feminism, I call it the female, uh, not sorry, not the female body thing. It's, it's a feminine in men and women alike. So it's honoring the empowered feminine. So vulnerability, you know, God bless us. Gone are the days where we're sort of overly animal-esque. We're not required to be animal-esque in so many ways. In certain war-torn areas, of course we are.

It's fight, flight, freeze, collapse, do your best. But in areas where the privilege of the Western approach is happening, you know, men can be vulnerable even if they were called wuss, if they were feeling and women can be empowered, even if they're told women should stay in the kitchen or whatever the archaic stuff is. So now we have a free for all where men and women bodies can be everything, everything they were born to be. Is that confusing? Not confusing for me. It's exciting, but it also could it be confusing if it could be overwhelming if, if one doesn't know what their role is or doesn't know what their ideal dynamic would be. So it's a self-knowledge conversation then. Can you give me an example of that?

I'll give you an example, a personal example, is that for a long time I always felt that I had to be beta because I looked around me. And other than my grandmother, I basically had women examples of doing a certain thing and that women couldn't be alpha. They couldn't be the one in any kind of a driver's seat. They were going to get their heads chopped off, like I said earlier. Can we give a definition of beta and alpha? So the context. So beta would be someone who supports the mission of the alpha and it happily does so. I don't know if you study the Enneagram, but number twos on the Enneagram are very service oriented in this way. Okay. What study the Enneagram, but number twos on the Enneagram are very service-oriented in this way. Okay.

What's this Enneagram? What is it? So the Enneagram is a method. I'm going to slaughter this because I'm such a new student at this. We'll link it up. We'll figure it out. Please give resources. Yes.

But Riso and Hudson, Helen Palmer, a handful of different geniuses over the years have really illuminated, Eli Jackson-Baird, have really illuminated what the Enneagram does. It basically discusses nine different types of approaches to life. And I've been studying it a lot. So I'm a four with a five wing. A four with a five? A four with a five wing. Check it out. Five wing. A five wing. So you have a wing. A wing. First of all.

So you have like a primary, then like a secondary. Yes. And then you have a number that you wing. First of all. So you have like a primary and then like a secondary. Yes. And then you have a number that you go to. They call it integration or growth. Okay. And then you have a number that you go to when it's disintegration or I call it stress. Okay. So what's a four mean?

A four is the artist internal. Oh. And then there's the quote unquote healthy version of the number and then the more kind of- Dark side. Yes. Yeah. So anyway. quote unquote healthy version of the number and then the more kind of dark side yes yeah so anyway so my growth when i'm in my best seat i'm a one and when i'm in my most uh stressed out thing i go to two which is the challenging part of two is people pleasing self-sacrificing loss of self i've been in that yeah so mate we'll figure out what your numbers are at some point.

Maybe after this. After this. Oh, my goodness. Fascinating. Anyway, my point is that so a lot of twos can be betas, but the key is not so much whether you're alpha beta. To me, it's neutral. A lot of people get horrified at that because there have been some associations

around beta being lesser than. Submissive. Yes, and alpha being maybe scary or dictatorial. But when there's a negative connotation to alpha or beta, it's because there's a disempowered version of them acting out. So a disempowered alpha would be a misogynist, very dictatorial, not win-win. Cocky. Yes.

Ego-driven. All about him. There. Yes, exactly. And that's what that is. There can still be a great alpha who says, listen, I'm going to take control of the situation and make sure we all win. I got you. And I'm going to take everybody into account.

And we'll mess us all up. Right. And I'm not done until we're all high-fiving. Exactly. That's an empowered alpha. And an empowered alpha also turns to an empowered beta, says, here's what I'd want. Here's what I'd like to do. Here's the mission.

How do you feel about that? says here's what i'd want here's what i'd like to do here's the mission how do you feel about that and the beta will go genius or let's tweak it a little bit or you know not feeling so good about that we give some good feedback insights and support so so what was what was that what was the question even uh alpha beta the top text of alpha beta so self-knowledge i mean basically this is all coming back to i think think, theme-wise is how important it is to have knowledge of self, not only for romantic relationships, but for colleagueships, who to hire, who to commit to on contracts. Your mission in the world.

Yes. It's how you interact in the world. Yes. And if we're relying singularly on our parents having nailed the stage of the development, we're in trouble. Wow. So there's so many ways that we can find ways to re-cohesivify. Nice word.

It doesn't exist. So re-kind of re- Configure. Yes. Re-all those things. Are we good? Yeah. So basically, there's so many ways to do it.

There's trauma recovery work. If there's any addiction processes, people, substances to address it from the addiction recovery way. Pia Melody talks a lot about codependence recovery. And it's basically the maturation process, growing ourselves up, you know, and doing it in group, doing it in one-on-one, doing it individually. Margaret Paul talks a lot about how to have a bondedness within ourselves. talks a lot about how to have a bondedness within ourselves. So my obsession is always bond with self and define self. Richard Schwartz, the IFS model, internal family systems,

takes the family systems model and internalizes it. So you could talk to all these aspects of self, which is really Jungian, just talking to these parts from the self. So self, other, nailing social intelligence, interpersonal intelligence, and then I call it suprapersonal intelligence, so God intelligence. And Howard Gardner actually added that. That wasn't an intelligence. He only had seven for a while. He added naturalist intelligence, which is the gardening green thumb thing.

I don't have that one. Look away. Oliver Cycle. I will chop that zucchini so hard, but I don't know how to grow it. Exactly. Yeah. My husband's amazing. So, um, uh, so he added naturalist intelligence and, um, I don't know what he calls it. Actually. I call it spirit. He calls it spiritual intelligence. So there's so many ways to figure out who you are and figure out might be too heady of a word, like head of a word. Right, right.

But somatically too, a lot of the trauma work is getting into the body because so much of my life I've been dissociated. You can't connect with your head when the trauma is in your heart. In your body. You've got to let it out somehow, right? Mm-hmm. And if you're analytical, that's not going to, if you're just reading only or analyzing. Right, theoretical, yeah. Or journaling only. Yes, because theory can't heal.

If we were wounded in relationships, it's the relationships that's going to do the healing work. So a lot of us get into relationships where we repeat this compulsion to repeat the same trauma. Same pattern, right? So not so much that we can escape that because I can't intellectually say, okay, I'm not going to be attracted to people who ignore me then. No, because you continue to be. How's that working for you? Why are you going after people that don't look at you?

Same archetype. Okay, here we go. It's more that there'd be some intentionality around letting relationship, committed and intimate relationship be a hotbed for healing. How do you heal in a relationship? You change behaviors for each other. So if there's blind spots, the theory is that the blueprint for your growth lies in the requests of your partner, especially the ones that piss you off the most.

The ones that trigger you the most. The ones that, like, oh, you want to, like... If only, could you please just keep quiet while I'm talking? You know, okay, I'm going to try that. Right, so what you're saying is making specific requests. Yes, so get those frustrations, those I want to kill you moments, turn them into requests

as quickly as you can. A calm, loving request. Ideally. I really don't like when you scream at me for doing X, Y, and Z. My request is that when you get upset at me and I do this, that you would simply tap me on the shoulder. Or just say stop or ouch or lift your eyebrow, whatever. Come up with your agreements.

Sure. Something where you ask and request. And knowing that the ones that are the hardest to do are usually the ones that are going to be most healing for your partner. So if I'm pulling out of some major blind spots, it's probably going to heal my husband the most, vice versa. Yeah, interesting. And so that's the third part of what romantic partnership promises.

The first one is the infatuation. Can't get your hands off each other. Can't stop thinking about each other. You're obsessed, which could segue into love addiction. And I say drag it out as long as you can because it's so much fun. Oh, my God. It's a drug. Every hormone, every spark is going off in your body.

Is there a more powerful drug than that? No, I don't think so. I mean, that's why love addiction is actually the biggest, in my mind, the biggest withdrawal from any addiction of all addictions. Because you have this connection, this intimacy, this love, this looking at each other's eyes, this touch, and then you just rip it apart. Yes. You don't have it anymore. And then you're left with the emptiness that perhaps was there to begin with, that perhaps wasn't looked at. So that's where the codependence recovery, Pia Melody nails it in her love addiction recovery book.

And then the second stage is where you start fighting. Conflict prevails. You're in the relationship of your nightmares. Oh, I've married this person. Or, oh God, I'm in the wrong relationship. Or, you know, it's the nightmare phase. Wow.

Now, some of that is sort of appropriate if it's a value systems mismatch or if there's some abuse going on. Yeah. Maybe take a little step back. But often it's not the time to jump ship. That's when the rubber is attempting to start to hit the road. And then the third phase is what we just talked about a second ago, or what I was basically going on about a second ago, where you actually start helping each other out. And heal with each other, as opposed

to say, screw this, let's end it. And you do your thing, I'm gonna do my thing. And then we get back in the same pattern and you get back in the same pattern. Let's actually heal this together. Yes, as opposed to, we're going to break up and then I'm going to go date someone exactly like you and go through the same- But it's a different story and have a love addiction for a year. This one has blonde hair and this one's a little shorter. Yes. Love addiction and then-

So what's the resource for, is there a book about this or a process or an exercise or workshop or- It's a combination of a few books, but Harville Hendricks is Keeping the Love You Find. Him and Helen McKellie hunt together at the big Imago movement. Okay. Did you talk about this in your last podcast? I talked about it with him and Helen.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I listened to that. It was great. It was so great. I mean, the Imago thing really made staying through the challenging time,

an imperative for me. And there were so many people who dealt me who were just like, we're fighting too much that no, we're done. And I'm like, done. We're just getting started. We're just getting started. We're just getting started.

This is the good stuff. You know, and some people say, don't get into the jugular hard heavy lifting until you're super committed. But I had a little caveat of, well, what if they're not up for the heavy lifting? How do you know? Yeah. So, you know, you got to be careful there. It's challenging. It's like,

if you're not willing to do the work before you get committed, like, what if you get committed and it's too late or I don't know and then they back out. So ideally,

you want to meet someone who even though they may not have necessarily done a ton of work, that they're open to it. Open to it. Yeah. Because if someone's not open

to the work, you're pooched. You're screwed. Both people. And are you still doing work every single day? Yeah. I mean, it's slowly becoming less, you're pooched. You're screwed. Both people. And are you still doing work every single day? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's slowly becoming less, you know, there's less salt being poured in each other's traumas, but we have moments. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But you

sound like you've done a lot of work over the last 20 years. Yeah. And especially in my marriage, I have to tell you so much of the work that I've done has been relational. So if there's a therapist or there's another person in the room, that's huge because I always thought that art and including art therapy, if it's alone, wasn't actually healing. It was really cathartic, but there was no healing going on because it wasn't relational. You were getting it out. You were releasing. Moving it.

And so, yes, maybe I moved. For a moment, you're channeling it out, but not healing fully. Right. So I'd sing these songs. I'd sing You Ought to Know. And then if I ran into that person having sung this song 150 times, it wouldn't have been more healed. Your heart was still like triggered and you were reacting. Yeah.

So basically I realized it was catharsis for art. But as soon as a human being where there's some semblance of commitment or some semblance of intimacy where there's vulnerability and two people sharing self, then the healing happens. But that's – I mean I also think the soul is very shy. So pace yourself. It doesn't have to happen right now. No, just like – Life is also messy. And it can be really fun like pepper in some fun movies and snowboarding and, you know, jump out of airplanes if that's

your thing. I like it. You know, bake. It doesn't have to be this dark conflict. You want to break it up a little bit and watch Game of Thrones or whatever you need. Or Weeds. Yeah, there you go. I was talking to Landis before this that she helped me get through a dark moment of two

weeks of Weeds watching. So are you a love addict? Are you a recovering love addict or So are you a love addict? Are you a recovering love addict? Or are you not a love addict? What does that mean? It means that the relationship kind of takes over and that there's something about the person that becomes almost like a higher power. And you lose a sense of self.

Maybe your self-care goes down a little bit when you're in a relationship. I think that's happened in the past. I think I'm much more aware of it. And yeah, because there's been past relationships where I've ended relationships and moved on and been fine and been single for a year and felt great. Okay. So then, no, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

But then there's other relationships where I'm like, oh man, I really miss this girl. And it's like, wow, there's actually so much good about her. What was I thinking? Well, that just sounds like straight up grief. That doesn't sound like love addiction. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah.

So maybe you're not. But I may, but I could miss that. But maybe you are. But who knows? I'm so messed up. Who knows? Everything's messed up. I don't wish that one on you though, by the way.

Which one? I don't wish love addiction on you. Okay. It's not great. Gotcha. Okay, cool. Where was I going with this? I don't know.

I'm curious. Over the last 20 years, a lot has happened. I mean, over your whole life, obviously, but the last 20 years when you kind of like made it big with your, it's the 20 year anniversary, right? Of your Jagged Little Pill, which is insane. I know. And I think I read on Wikipedia. Thank God. Thank God. A little distance. Right? A little disidentification from which I want to talk about that too. But did it sell 30 something million records in the first year or something like that? I don't know what the record-breaking things were. There were some Guinness Book of World Record moments.

That's crazy. But yeah, it sold a lot of records. It sold a lot. The record company said, you know, we think this could sell upwards of about 100,000 copies. And I remember telling – I literally did the Saturday Night Live, like put my fingers on their mouth, like don't speak. Don't jinx it, right? First of all, it's too daunting to hear someone say

what they hope. I don't know how you are with that, but I don't like hearing people's expectations. No, it's tough. No. Especially, I just had a book and it's like, you know, if an agent or a publisher's like,

we want this to happen, you're like, oh, what if it doesn't happen? Right. You know what I mean? And it's kind of implied sometimes when they say what they would like to have happen, this pressure that if it doesn't happen right you know and and it's kind of implied sometimes when they say what they would like to have happen this pressure that if it doesn't there's gonna be this big disappointment whatever so i don't like that stuff so they said a hundred

but they said a hundred thousand i remember thinking wow that's intense and then 30 million something later you're like whoa my life is forever changed yeah right yes because i was i was the observer of people. I loved sitting and just watching human beings. And then all of a sudden millions of people were observing you. Yes. Every move, every decision, every relationship. Yeah. And the irony for me is that I actually have recognition shame. Like I don't actually like people looking at me, but I also have this other side that you can look at me. I've done a lot of work. I can actually look at people now. No joke. But then this other part that's like a ham that I wear my cape and I'll Joan of Arc on steroids.

You know, like anytime you want someone to volunteer, my hand's already up. Sure. So I'm constantly putting my foot on the pedal and the brake, you know. But anyway, that time period was huge. It taught me a lot about humans and relationships and betrayal and exploitation and i can only imagine the amount of trauma that comes after that type of success yeah like a searing amount of betrayal and exploitation i couldn't even fathom it yeah like everyone wants a piece of you everyone wants to take probably and talk about

invisibility that's another thing i was sold the same bill of goods perhaps that most people were sold about fame, which was that I'd be kumbayaing into the sunset with Johnny Depp and me and all these celebrities would be hanging out and Sharon Stone would be painting my nails. That just wasn't the case. I would phone different celebrities and say, hi. And they'd say, why are you calling me? Really? And I'd say, just maybe you calling me? Really? And I'd say, I'm, uh, just maybe, uh, bye. Forget it. You know, I was just wanting a friend for crying out loud. Somebody who, who could maybe help me or give you some feedback. They didn't understand that I could

be so vulnerable as to reach out for it. Maybe. I don't know. It's different. It seems different now. I don't know. I don't know if people are as isolated as they were also. When you call a celebrity now, do they get back to you or are they more open? Why don't you call celebrities as a thing? Who's my next celebrity? Johnny Depp, how are you? I did actually speak to him. But what was I going to say?

Yeah, it's different now too. Also, contextually, the feminist movement is just in a slightly different place. There's more of a squad mentality now. Now, do I know the degree of intimacy in those relationships? I have no idea because I'm not in it. But at the time, I'd be on tour with 14 male bands at some huge muddy festival in Europe, and I'd be the only female, maybe me and Bjork. And we'd send a song of mine before Jagged Little Pill came out. We'd send you out and out of the radio radio stations and they would say, you know what?

We can't play this. We're already playing Sinead O'Connor. We're already playing Tori Amos. To the point where it was like, wait a minute. You can only play one or two girls? Apparently. What? Now, obviously, that's different.

It's like all women, it seems like now. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Bless. Yeah. Now the men need to get stepped up. Yeah, they're fine.

There's so many amazing male artists. There's a lot. Yeah. Now the men need to get stepped up. Yeah, they're fine. There's so many amazing male artists. There's a lot. Yeah. Now, I'm curious, because you were 19 when you moved here. Do you feel like it was, now I know you had this talent in Canada, and you were obviously gifted, but do you feel like when you came here that you almost got a lucky break at all? Does any of that come up for you? Like, man, I just met the right people and got in the right situations, and hit this thing and it was the right timing and I was the right voice. And there was a lot of,

uh, stars aligning for sure. Um, but it wasn't so grace tinged, you know, a lot of rejection. Basically when I first was sharing my songs with people, it was basically across the board. Yeah. And as a Canadian, I was taking some meetings where people wanted me to self-promote and sell myself. And you were like this 19-year-old. So they'd sit back and they'd be like, tell me about how amazing you are. And I would freeze because that wasn't my style. Just let me sing, please. So I would say, I said to the team, I was working with a small team, I just said, I can't take these meetings anymore.

I just have to have my music speak for itself. Probably not unlike your podcast and your book. You want it to speak for you or you to speak for you, but you, you know, I don't want to dance like a monkey. No, I am no monkey. I am, there might be some dog and pony shows, but I don't go to those. Um, so yeah, certainly I shook a lot of hands and smooched a lot of cute babies, but, um, but cute babies. But I couldn't do the thing of selling myself to people. So I just thought, let's just finish this record with Glenn Ballard off the radar. Once the record was finished, then I met Guy Oseary at Maverick. Oh, that's who it was.

He was doing backflips, yeah. He was Madonna's manager, right? Madonna's label was Maverick. Yeah, yeah. And so they were all working together with Freddie the Man and Abby Conowich. Yeah, a guy. I've never met him, but he invests in a couple companies I invest in as well. And I always hear about him.

Seems like a great guy. So he's the guy who supported the original. Yeah, he heard Hand in My Pocket and Perfect. And he was doing backflips. And you ought to know. Literally. Yeah. Like on the table, jumped off.

No, I'm just kidding. Great shoes. Yes. No, he was so excited. And that was it. Wow. And you were 20 at. No, I'm just kidding. Great shoes. Yes. No, he was so excited. And that was it. Wow. And you were 20 at that time? I was 19 still.

That's crazy. Or no, I was 20. I was 20 at that point. Amazing. It's so interesting because it doesn't seem like 20 years ago that that many people had the opportunity as they do today. You can do a YouTube video or be on Vine or Snapchat and get a record or just throw out your own album on iTunes and do half a million sales or something.

You build your own audience. It's so direct now. It's very different. There's no bottleneck. Yeah, there were major bottlenecks and pros and cons to both approaches, different eras. Right. But it was all like if MTV played it, then you were big or something, right? Yes.

Or if a radio station played it and people called in, that was it. The people spoke. The people spoke. The people have spoken. That's crazy. What advice would you give people now who are in this different world where it's like they're not trying to move to LA and find a record label that's doing it on their own? What advice would you give them?

It would be the same advice I would probably give anyone if they asked me. I hate unsolicited advice, so they'd have to ask me. Sure. It would be to just be themselves. So write songs that are you. For me, I don't enjoy listening to songs that I think are overly presentational. Some element of performance, if someone's just got a- Too packaged, right?

Or too- Yeah, too presentational. Not enough- Too much of the machine. Messy. I like a little messy, a little... That's like your definition.

Yeah. That's who you are. So I'm just projecting my own preferences here, but that's what we do. Exactly. So yeah, I like when it's autobiographical

and vulnerable and powerful and whether it's a movie or a book or anything, a podcast. Yeah, yeah. What is it like now?

You've had all the success in your early or late teens, early 20s with your music, and the numbers haven't been as big since then. Yeah, no. It went down precipitously, continuously after. 20 years as it keeps going down a little bit, right? I mean, I don't want to put you in a negative state of mind. I'm not.

That's neutral information. Cool. Yeah, there you go. These are the facts, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how does someone who hits like, blows out these records and world records

and millions of copies, not kill herself? Yeah, how do you emotionally handle it? Like, oh, maybe my best musical performances or the results of the best performances are behind me. Well, the results of the best performances is probably a good way to put it because so much of it has to be around how I define success. Of course. I mean, sales numbers.

Yeah, sales numbers to me are, and I said this before Jagged Little Pill, during Jagged Little Pill, and still now, they're almost inconsequential. Does it affect money coming in and opportunities? For sure. Yeah. But opportunities abound for me. Of course. And it really begs the question of what kind of opportunities. So there are opportunities to do huge TV shows with huge audiences.

I've had the privilege of doing a lot of that. Movies. I've been doing it recently. I mean, I have access to being expressed. I've been doing it recently. I mean, I have access to being expressed. So for me, if I have a sense of self, I'm in my seat, as I call it, and I'm being expressed, I'm being of service, and I'm taking care of myself so that I don't burn out, that to me is the definition of success for me. And then I had to start having some personal fulfillment, too, because I had professional fulfillment nonstop, and I still have that. You could get, you could succeed anytime professionally you want to. Yeah. You can get in a TV show or movie or the most fun and following the AMAs doing a comedy piece with

so-and-so. And there's just so many ways to scratch the itch of forms of expression. So that to me is like, I'm a kid in a candy store today right um for me it was about also combining personal fulfillment so that took a minute and then now that i have that as well i'm happy to say now i just feel like i it's about waking up in the morning and knowing what is the imperative for me it's service and self-expression continuing self-definition, deepening intimacy in relationships that were always terrifying in the past and becoming slowly less and less so. And nurturing the ones that are really important to me. Yeah. What are the most important relationships right now?

My husband, my son, my community, my best friends. They're huge. Yeah. And it's a constant. Every day there's a new thing you know sometimes it's subtle sometimes it's oh they let me rub their back a little longer or oh they cried with me or oh i i asked for help or you know whatever the growth stretch is for me in any given moment that in the past perhaps i wouldn't have done for fear maybe i'm doing it a little bit more today so

defining success to me is a multitudinous thing. It's not just success means winning Grammys, although that is some version of success. It's cool. Sort of like externally oriented success. So there's internal orientation around success and the external validation. The external validation is dangerous, though, because if we're singularly focusing on that, that is an ebb and flow. My whole life I've been loved and hated. People don't give it.

People don't care. All of a sudden they really care this week and then next week they don't care again. And then they hate and there were websites erected on how to punch me out properly. I mean, just the whole continuum of abject adoration and love and respect all the way to abject hatred and emotional violence. So I can't really ride that roller coaster. If I'm externally oriented, I'm in trouble. Externally referencing. Because you're constantly looking for an acknowledgement,

a thing to bring you a feeling or feeling like you did it. And then you're dependent on it. Yeah, and you're always searching for the next big thing. And not to say I'm an island, the whole autonomous movement, you know, God bless the movement of autonomy and post-feminism and everything,

or post-feminism, post-70s really. Yeah. But now I just think, I can't be singularly internally referencing I'm not an island. Yeah. So I pick the people

who I feel vulnerable with. We give each other feedback. They'll say, oh, there's a little blind spot there. And vice versa. But we always do it with a tenderness. And then I'll want their feedback. You like this song? But if I like the song, if I like the chapter, if I like the conversation we're having, I don't actually care what someone else thinks about it. This is just self-definition. I'm not saying this is the height of what all people should aspire to.

It's what I love. Yeah. And that's it. And that's enough for me. I want to talk about relevance for a moment because for... I don't like that word. Unless you...

We don't have to talk about it. We'll talk about relevant. Well, you tell me what you think that word means. Well, here's the question. Yes. And if we don't answer, you don't have to. Yeah. Let me make sure I say this the right way because I don't want to make you upset at me now.

I would never be upset. So 20 years ago, for a number of years, you were extremely relevant. Yes. With your music. Yes. And you were at the top of the charts. Everyone wanted you. You were touring everywhere, et cetera, et cetera.

Yes. It started going down a little bit every year, you said, right? Yeah. These are your words. Yeah. You're not going to trigger me. Okay, cool. etc etc it started going down a little bit every year you said right yeah these are your words I'm not putting you're not going to trigger me okay cool do you feel

how important is it for you to be relevant in the world yeah so let's get okay so let's get explicit about what you mean when you use the word

relevant I guess relevant relevant meaning famous known and on top of famous on top of mind on top of what like on top of mind. On top of what?

Like on top of mind awareness. Like you're on the top of people's minds. Okay. So you're famous. I guess you can call it. Yeah. It really is that. Okay.

Okay. Famous. So let's talk about fame. How important is it to you for you to be relevant. Famous. And to have influence and to be able to get your message out to the world, whether it's through music or through another message. So now you're splitting them in two.

And some of them, there is an overlap because to the degree that you have more fame, you have more influences. You can serve more people, right? Yes. So what I make sure of is that my engine, that is me, serves microcosmically and macrocosmically. I don't have entire control over whether it's 60 billion people or 1,000 people. I don't have control over the number, but I do have control as to whether I show up. So I just go micro, macro, micro, macro all the time. And if I'm not doing enough macro service, something feels very wrong in my

body. If I'm not doing enough micro- What do you mean by macro service? Showing up, doing this. Yeah. If you're just isolating yourself. If I'm just in my sweatpants. Yes, all day for a whole year. And I'm just faking. Then I feel as though I'm not living what I was born to do. And by the way, I don't always love what I was born to do.

Sometimes I feel actually quite encumbered by it. What were you born to do? To be micro macro. Some people were born to be in the public eye and others weren't. I mean, I know a ton of people that they look at my life and they go, that looks exhausting. And I would never want to do what you do. And I'm, and I just think, well, great. Don't do it. Glad you're not doing it. Yeah. And so there are other people who are more built for the micro, like I think of a sacred nurse in a hospice. She's not dying to be on television.

But she's serving a group of people every single day. Yes. So that's, to me, the micro. Gotcha. And they're both equally important. And for me personally, one without the other is egregiously incomplete. It's like making sure you're there for your family and your small community of your family, but also, okay, let me take my message out to the world and serve the maximum number

of people. Yes. Okay. And maximum is the perfect way to put it because I can't control the degree of what you might call relevance and what I call fame. I can control showing up and getting my glam team together and shooting a video. I can control all that fun stuff. But I can't control the receptivity.

How many people are going to watch it or listen or show up? No, and neither can anybody. We think we can. A lot of people in the industry think they can manipulate it, but you can't. Through the press and through whatever shows you're on or things like that. Do you feel like you're still as relevant as you were? As famous? No.

I'll just say famous from now on. Yeah, I mean, relevant is also a? As famous? No. I'll just say famous from now on. Yeah. I mean, relevant is also a very modern word. Okay. It's very modern. So if I go back 20 years or even to the 60s and 70s, they wouldn't have said relevant, I don't think. They would have said, how famous are you?

Gotcha. Okay. Now there's also my relationship or my perception of fame is that a lot of people want to be famous for the sake of famousness. You know, it's like being famous. You know, I go, what does fame mean? Fill in the blank. Fame means that I what?

People know me. But if people know you, then what? Right. You know, what would I do with that white hot heat of staring eyeballs? You know, a lot of people, I think, chase fame to get the attachment stuff they never got. It's literally eyeballs looking at you, people wanting to touch you, people wanting to be near you, people being obsessed with you.

What's that if not what mother offers us or caregiver offers us when we're born, ideally? So there's that whole conversation. Then there's just, you know, I'll get my dad's approval finally. I'll finally be accepted by so-and-so. Yes, and I'll have the money and the cars. So to me, it's to what end? What does this actually provide you personally in your soul, in your heart? And I think that that's where it gets a little dangerous.

If there's a new famous person at 18, it makes sense that they would chase it to the degree that they do. Or even celebrities that are now in their 50s and 60s still chasing it like they're 21 yeah a lot of that is still chasing what still chasing attention and and if it's relevance or fame or whatever it is they want they still want that and yeah there's a part of me that's super insecure and loves the idea of you know walking out of a big television show in New York and people being there. There's another part of me on a human body level that hated that.

I was dying in it and it wasn't sustainable for me. So what I see my life as being now is the perfect combination of if I really want it to be in macro, if I put a book out or a record out, I'll promote it to high heaven. And you could get it out there for, yeah. Yeah. And whoever's supposed to read it is going to read it or listen to it. If you're supposed to hear it, you'll hear it because I'll show up to promote it. But the rest of it isn't up to me.

And if I can walk around the streets and actually look at people and have some people come up to me and go, hi, what's your name? I'm just like, yes, I'm a human being again. Yeah, yeah. Well, you look very girl next door. You're like this, you know, you're not this glammed out celebrity or something. So it's like you're very approachable and relatable.

Thanks, yeah. What do you think your message was 15, 20 years ago? What did you want it to be? It was to express what was really going on. I think I grew up in different contexts that were, that were overly presentational, not, not overly authentic.

And there was a lot of pain, secrecy. And so I had this drive. I see it in my twin brother too, this drive to go to the jugular of what's really going on. Well, what's really going on? What's the lowest common denominator here? How can we reduce this to jugular of what's really going on. Well, what's really going on? What's the lowest common denominator here?

How can we reduce this to the truth of what's happening? So that's what I was doing then. And frankly, it's what I'm doing now. Now I'm doing it with a little bit more swagger. Now I'm just like, well, I know what it is. Pretty intentional, I guess. If I'm sleepwalking, I'm sleepwalking. But then it was a little more dangerous just because there was so much

heat. Attention. Yeah. Fame. Relevance. Well, they're all, they're all the same.

Exactly. Yeah. So what do you think is the mission now? What's your assignment in life? Now it's, it's to serve and comfort and uplift and validate and inform. So if someone's suffering and I can say one thing that will help alleviate that suffering and allow some agency in them or some empowerment or some fire or some tenderness

or the stopping of their kicking their own asses ruthlessly and endlessly every day. I've been there for many, many years. of their kicking their own asses ruthlessly and endlessly every day. I've been there for many, many years. If I could offer even a glimpse of, even if it's just a laugh at how hard it is to be human sometimes, or, you know, that's all, that's all I'm here for. There's no question. So I'm here to educate if it's appropriate. I'm here to validate and empathize and laugh with someone.

Yeah. Okay. Through what, what type of context do you want to create that through? What type of message do you feel like music's going to be a big part of your life for you to continue to create music? Or do you feel like you've said everything you need to say in past songs? Uh, no, I'll, I'll, I'll write records until I'm dead and probably after torture someone by channeling my stuff. Um. So I'll always write music. Whether people are listening or not won't even

matter to me because I have to write songs. So I'll always write music. A little bit of comedy has to happen. If I haven't done comedy in a couple of years, I start wanting to eat my own hand. A little bit of comedy. Design. My website's been really fun because I'm able to be in the design

aesthetic. It's beautiful. I love beautiful, yes. I love it. So beauty. Atlantis.com. Love it linked up. Make sure to check it out. Thank you, sir. So aesthetic, design, sound. So all the senses, frankly.

Scents, oils, I'm obsessed. They're all over my site. I saw all the oils there, yeah. So basically all the senses. Yeah. Sound, beauty, design, aesthetic. Basically all the senses, sound, beauty, design, aesthetic. Yeah, I mean, basically all the senses expressing through those and through comedy and through feminism and health, taking self-care to a whole other level, but not perfectionism because the self-care, wellness, well-being movement can be so co-opted by the ego and co-opted by the beating oneself up to turn it into some perfectionism dangerous and then spirituality like just showing where god shows

up in all these different forms and then psychological i mean there's this academic geek in me that's always been there that's you know just like a clinical therapist in the body of a glittery sweaty little little rock star. So back then I had to kind of hide that. I remember on the cover of some magazine in the UK, they said something like stadium therapy and Alanis and her psychobabble. And I was like, whereas now it seems to be maybe a boon, you know, it seems to be something that's of service as opposed to something people can make fun of. Sure. What's the line in a song that you've written that speaks to you the most, that you love the most?

One line. There's one line that cracks me up only because there's so many words. And then the content is so awesome, I guess. Can blindly continued fear-induced, regurgurgitated life-denying tradition be overcome? And it's in the 20th anniversary deluxe fancy package we made. So the version that I have in there, the sound version, doesn't have that line. But we did a new version and I couldn't find it. So I wrote the lyric in and it's some demo somewhere and I'll find it one day and just put it on my site. But I remember trying to put a new line in there because the old one didn't

feel so good. And that's a rare thing. Usually when a song is written, it's done really fast. But that line totally cracked me up that I got away with. It's like, how can I sneak in words that are entirely inappropriate? And what's the song that inspired you the most when you were growing up that healed you the most that made you want to belt it out every time over and over? The Smurfs All-Star Show. That's literally the first record that I got. So I was, as a kid in Germany, I just remember being on the Autobahn, which has no speed limit, which was so my father. He loved that Autobahn. He would play Carole King.

And so everything by Carole King, basically. And then there was a kid's record she did, Really Rosy, I think it's called. I knew every lyric and I could sing it top to bottom as a kid. Okay. If you were given unlimited money right now, if I said, here top to bottom as a kid. Okay. If you were given, uh, unlimited money right now, if I said, here's a trillion dollars and this trillion dollars or whatever it is, can heal one thing in the world and you can only heal one thing right now with this money and you had to spend it on healing that one thing, what would you want to heal?

Raise the feminine consciousness because feminine consciousness makes sure, that one thing, what would you want to heal? Raise the feminine consciousness because feminine consciousness makes sure, makes sure by its very nature that everything, everyone is okay. Water, healthcare, you know, divisiveness, lack of conflict resolution, all of those incredible things that we look to to create salvation for a disharmonious planet would be healed through the raising of consciousness, which is fueled in my mind by the divine feminine being upheld in society. That's both men and women.

Yes, both bodies. All races. I like that. So raising the feminine period. Interesting. Okay. If you had a piece of paper, it's your last day. Of my life?

Yes. In many, many years from now. I would turn it into a veggie burger. It's decades from now. I would turn it into a veggie burger. It's decades from now. It's your last day. Thank you for saying that. Yes, you're 100 and something years old. 22.

There you go. Okay. You've got, all your music has been erased. Okay. Every book, every website, everything you've ever put out there has been erased.

Wow, there's actually a relief in that. It takes the micro pressure and shuts it off. Right. Okay. Or the macro one, sorry. Everything's gone. Okay. No one has access to your stuff anymore. Wow. There's actually a relief in that. It takes the micro pressure and shuts it off. Right. Okay. Or the macro one. Sorry.

Everything's gone. Okay. No one has access to your stuff anymore. Okay. All your lyrics. My whole body. My whole body. Your whole heart, your soul, your life's work. Well, that's kind of what's going to happen when the body goes.

Yeah. I mean, none of this is going to be relevant. Right. None of this is going to be relevant. Talk about relevant. But you have your family there. Everything most important to you is there. And you've got a piece of paper and a pen.

And they say, Grandma, great, great, great grandma, we love you. But we have nothing to remember you by except for this piece of paper that you're going to write something down for us. Okay. And we want you to write down three truths that you know to be true about life. Wow. That this is what will be remembered by what you us. Okay. And we want you to write down three truths that you know to be true about life. Wow. That this is what will be remembered by what you say. Because none of the stuff you ever said, we can listen to anymore. Yeah, we don't have access.

We don't have access. Okay. So you have a piece of paper and three truths you get to write down that you know to be so true about life. What would you say are those three truths? Well, the first one I'll just repeat, which is- The trillion dollar. The trillion-

The feminist thing. Is the feminine. three truths well the first one i'll just repeat which is the trillion dollar the trillion is the fem is is the feminine if when the masculine powerful masculine in all of us serves the feminine agenda all is well okay okay uh the other is a drawing that i would do it's my definition of love which is someone i was dating someone in my 20s and they said what's your definition of love and i said i'm gonna draw it so love? And I said, I'm going to draw it. So I just drew two stick figures and one stick figure goes, you. And the other stick figure goes, no, you. So it's both people wanting to serve each other.

Oh, will you draw that for me before we leave? Yes. Okay, cool. And then the third one would be, I just would pull back, you know, if we look at how many galaxies there are and the new ones discovered all the time, how tiny. And then, you know, the spiritual concept of there being no such thing as time. That if we look at how short this period of time is that we're on the earth and, you know, not so much to reduce how quote unquote important we are, Not so much to reduce how quote-unquote important we are, but to reduce the scarcity of thinking that it all has to happen now, that it'll all unfold in perfect time, and that life is happening, and it's happening through us, with us, and without us. So taking some of the preciousness away and letting people have a little bit of an out-breath, a tiny bit, maybe a little more levity and lightness.

Not to wear this weight on the world of like, it's all on me or something, right? Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's just off the top of my head. Those are good starts. You'll be able to say much more, but I just want to know that. No, this is it. This is the last thing I'll ever say. This is the only thing you'll ever say.

What are you most grateful for in your life recently? Whoa, where to begin? I'm grateful for conversation conversations like this where one plus one equals seven i'm really grateful for that and i've been able to do it more publicly in my podcast in this moment and just i've always loved interviews for that um there's a self definition component there's a teaching component there There's a service component. There's a humor component. So it kind of blends everything I live for. So conversation. Mercy. Just really, really grateful for tenderness in the face of what could be violent. You know, I grew up around a lot of reactivity and a lot of scariness. And so being in environments

where people err on the side of being tender when they could not be, I'm always so grateful for that. Yeah. What do you think is missing in your life right now? Oh, that's a good question. A little something there. I don't know what, what's missing. Um, maybe a little more water, like more wakeboarding. Oh, I was going to say it just rained. I know. I could wakeboard the droplets. Maybe a little more engines and water.

Ocean? Yeah. Go to the ocean a lot? Yes, I do. I spend a lot of time in Malibu. So more paddleboarding. It's a little cold right now. Yeah.

Come on. It's not that cold. It's cold. You could make a wetsuit out there. It's a little cold right now. Yeah. Come on. It's not that cold. It's cold. They made a wetsuit out there. It's fine. Although when I first moved here, I would always swim out in the ocean in December. It's kind of cold. Come on.

It is chilly. And all these surfers would swim over and they'd say, are you from Canada? And I'd say, yeah, how do you know? And they'd say, you're the only one not in a wetsuit out here. You have to be from Canada. That's funny. Yeah. Okay.

So that's what's missing. More water, sports and activities. What's the biggest fear right now? The biggest fear is that I have so much in me and that somehow something, I got to knock on a bunch of wood, that somehow I won't get it out in time.

And that's scarcity mindset. But I just really want to make sure that I can help as much as I possibly can, which would mean getting it out through song or through a book or through my site. And I'm on it. It's not like I'm not cooking. What have you not gotten out yet that you really want to get out? Just things that could help people. Yeah.

Okay. Or at least would be available to help people. That would kill me if there were so many things I could have done to help and I missed it yeah what's something you're most proud of that no one knows about that's not talked about in the world and I think how much I manage you know that I use both sides of my brain all the time I'm managing my house and the career and the ideas and the vision and the charities and the, you know, I'm just managing a lot. And I, in some ways I know to the outside eye, it might look like there's an effortlessness

and a breeziness to it, but it's a lot. Yeah. Okay. What do you want your son to know about you when he grows up? This combination and that ideally it would be in him, and I already see it happening in him, so I'm a happy mama. But that there's both. Whenever we're playing sports or whenever he's trying something new

or he's doing a lot of gymnastics right now, that this combination of brazenness, this cockiness, this power, combined with this grace and humility and prayer, that duality together is a really powerful force. So going in with graciousness but power, that combo platter is nice. That's cool. What's the one quality that you want to take on that you haven't taken on yet? Just being a little less guilty when I say no. I say no all the time. take on that you haven't taken on yet?

Just being a little less guilty when I say no. I say no all the time. You have to. I do. Because you get asked. I mean, I wouldn't be here if I didn't say no a billion times. You get asked all the time. I can only imagine to do things, to show up for events, charities, this and that. I don't have so much trouble saying no to because there's only so much a body can do.

Right. It's that I have a little bit of a caretaking thing. When I'm disempowered, I go to the two on the Enneagram. And so basically just to watch that, you know, women especially, I think are sold the thought that if you don't give that you're innately bad. So I just got to watch that. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. What's the one question that you've never been asked? You've always wanted to be asked and answer. Um, cause you've probably been asked a million. Every question I probably asked you, you've probably been asked. I don't know about that.

I'd have to think about that one. But what's, is there a question that you always wish someone asked that they'd never have that you would love to answer? Just, uh, you know, what are you,

what are you feeling? What are you feeling? What am I feeling? Well, the thing is, the reason why I think some people are afraid to ask me is because I'm Just, you know, what are you feeling? What are you feeling? What am I feeling? Well, the thing is, the reason why I think some people are afraid to ask me is because I'm usually feeling about 12 things at the same time. Okay. So I'm feeling, are you asking me? I'm asking you, yes. Is this the question that no one, how are you feeling?

What are you feeling? Really? Yes. Okay. I'm feeling giddy. I feel terrified always. I think I always have a little element of anxiety coursing through my system. Especially as a mom, probably.

It's like another level. That took it to a whole other level. But I always had anxiety. It's just like a general chronic anxiety. Yeah, I would say giddy and nervous. And yeah, those two. Okay, cool. Well, I want to wrap it up by acknowledging you for a moment.

We're going to get into promoting some of the things you have going on. You can do that for me. But at the end of every episode, I like to acknowledge my guests for coming on. So sweet. And for what opened up for me during the episode. Yeah, tell me. So I want to acknowledge you, Alanis, for your incredible love and humility and openness and graciousness and your commitment to serving people. and you've gone through so much pain and struggle, and yet you continue to step up to serve the maximum number of people in a way that works best for you, and sometimes it doesn't work best for you.

So I acknowledge you for your incredible gifts, for your incredible love, and for the grace in which you've done everything for the last 20 years since you've been in the spotlight. From my experience, it seems very graceful because I could only imagine the amount of pressure and weight you've had to carry or that you've put on yourself or that other people have. And you've come out so beautifully and open. And it's amazing to see that you're living your life the way you want to live it and inspiring people around you. So I want to acknowledge you for all those things.

Thanks. Yeah. My final question before I ask it is I want everyone to make sure to go subscribe to Conversations with Alanis Morissette on iTunes. I listened to the second episode this morning. Catherine Wilber-Thomas, who introduced us, is the first episode, so I highly recommend checking it out. You do it a monthly show, right? It's monthly for now, yeah. So go subscribe. Check out Atlantis.com.

The site is beautiful. There's lots of great content out there, articles, things like that. A lot of writing. And 20th anniversary of your famous record. So go pick up the record. And what else? You got a book coming out when? Yes, I'm finishing it over the next few months.

So it's tons of stories. And I couldn't just have a whole story or a whole book just based on memoir. It wouldn't be enough for me. So I'm putting a bunch of teachings in. So bridging that braided narrative. I think I'll be done that in 2016 at some point. Okay, cool. Do you have a publisher

with that or is that self-published? I do. Okay, cool. Yeah, Gideon. Yeah, Harper One. So basically, when that's done, I'll take a little bit of time off and then I'm going to go right into writing a new record because I'm dying. I've been holding the record hostage. For the book. I have to because I would just keep writing six more records

and never get that book done. So you've got to finish one day. I'm holding it hostage. It's quite torturous, actually. That's great. Okay, cool. Anything else? I just started following you on Instagram.

So you're on Instagram. You're on the Twitters. You're on the Facebooks. You're on everywhere. She's on the Twitters. Go follow her everywhere. We'll have everything linked up in the show notes here so you can check out all the things we talked about. Anything else that we should be doing?

That's great. You just so nailed it. Thank you. Okay, perfect. Yeah. Thank you for your graciousness and your intelligences and your humor and your openness and your mission and living it so fully. Bless you. I appreciate it.

Thanks. I've got one final question. Yes. It's what's your definition of greatness? And is it another picture or is it? It probably is. I'll give it to you. Greatness is self-knowledge expressed.

Oh, that's more sad. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. There you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this interview. It was such a privilege and an incredible experience to connect with Alanis. So down to earth, so loving, so present. And I was so grateful for her time and her energy and her wisdom. She has so much to give and to share. So make sure if you enjoyed

this episode, share it with your friends over on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. Use the link lewishouse.com slash 266. I think people need to hear her message. And I want to make sure we get this out there in a big way. Also, if this is your first time here on the podcast, thank you for coming. Thank you for celebrating this message of greatness. Make sure to subscribe over on iTunes, on SoundCloud, on Stitcher, and leave us a review over on iTunes as well because those reviews help us continue to stay in the top of the rankings on iTunes. Again, such a privilege to have Alanis on.

So grateful for her. Make sure to share this out, lewishouse.com slash 266. Subscribe to our free newsletter where we give away some of the top tools, resources, and information on how to live a better life and also build an income and build a business around your dreams. So make sure to go to lewishouse.com to sign up there. We've got big, big things coming very soon. The end of the year is near and I'm very excited to share with you what we have coming very soon. Thank you guys so much for being the support that you are. Thank you for spreading the message of greatness. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.