The School of Greatness - 276 Rob Bell on Marriage and Staying True to Yourself

Episode Date: January 13, 2016

"The moments when we most want to check out are the moments to pay attention like never before." - Rob Bell If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/276

This is episode number 276, part two with Rob Bell. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone back to this episode.

This is part two, and we dive in a lot deeper about the meaning of life, interpreting faith, marriage, divorce, same-sex marriage, what's happening after we die, all these topics and more we dive in. So let's go ahead and dive in with this episode with the one and only Rob Bell, part two. And then when it comes to like same gender relationships, there's basically five passages that refer to what we know to be same gender sex and relationships. I believe none of those passages, lots of scholarship on this, are referring to what we're referring to when we talk about like same sex marriage. Two people in a committed, loving, monogamous relationship. I don't think the Bible is talking about that.

Really? So when people say, well, the Bible is very clear. No, I don't think the Bible is talking about that. Yeah, yeah. There's so many people that are— They don't even have that category. So many people that believe in that and that are— Right.

Stick true to that. I know. And they're not open to evolving and being— Yeah, and they keep quoting. There's basically five passages they quote. They're called the clobber passages. Really? And first off, to use those particular verses,

even the words that are used. Give me an example that someone might use. Here's an example. There's passages in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians which are often most commonly cited. One of the Greek words there that often gets translated like homosexual, the word actually literally refers much more to the idea of effeminate. And here's why. In the ancient Greek culture,

there was a spectrum of femininity to masculinity. And the more masculine a man was believed to be, the more he had sex with more different kinds of people, including young boys. And that if a man only had sex with a woman, that he was considered effeminate on the spectrum of sexuality. Wow. So when it speaks of somebody in the ancient Greek world to say that a man was effeminate meant, this man only has sex with a woman. Okay. So some of these words have such a rich, interesting history. And you can even see the history of translating some of these words.

Like the first use of the word of translating some of these words. Like the first use of the word homosexual in the Bible is 1973. That's the first time the word homosexual actually is in an English translation of the Bible. Now here's what's interesting. What also happened in 1973. In 1973, the DSM-III, which is the sort of psychology guidebook to what's considered a disease, took homosexuality, which they called it at the time, off of its disease list. Wow. And sort of normalized it.

When was this? So, 1973. Wow. So many people would simply say conservative religious people, in seeing the larger culture move towards acceptance, translated the English translation of the Bible this way, almost in response to that. I mean, that's a theory that many people have. Why do you think people care so deeply about certain things like same-sex marriage? Yeah, great question.

Why do you think they put so much – why are they so afraid of evolving or growing into a new way of experiencing life? Or everyone has an opinion of what's right and wrong or good and bad. Right, right, right. It's good or bad or whatever, but it's just why are people so afraid of it, you think? I think some – Of the evolution in my observation as a pastor over the years is you were handed a way of navigating the world. This is right. This is wrong.

This is good. This is bad. growth and development, hopefully your parents and your culture and your tribe and teachers and authority figures did instill in you a moral compass, a sense of right and wrong. That's absolutely necessary for proper human growth and development. Even the idea of postponed gratification or impulse control. You can't have everything you want right now is a really, really important thing to learn in order to navigate the world. Think of how many addictions, how many compulsions come out of an inability to control impulses. So this is absolutely necessary healthy human growth and development.

is the same system, people, and authority figures, sometimes even dear, loving parents, that handed me, it's good to save money, it's good to go to college, it's good to work hard, also handed you some other things. And later, when some of these other things don't work like they used to, if you challenge those, subvert those, stop obeying those or living by those, it can be, well, what else was I given? You know what I mean? That isn't what was wrong. Right. Right. The same person who told me this also told me this. What else isn't true? What else did they tell me? And oftentimes there's a bunch of good in there.

Yeah. And they mean well. Exactly. So the number of women I have met who were taught, you matter, you're valuable, you're a child of God, were also told you can't be a spiritual leader. You can't be president in this culture. You'll never be that thing that you want to be because this culture isn't ready for it. And you'll never be because that's just not is wrong and I'm going to disregard it and I'm going to go after my dreams. You have to move to a place of extraordinary maturity to be able to, what theorists call, transcend and include. I was handed a bunch of stuff that high school teacher who told me you can never be a CEO. Or a Sunday school teacher or. Also taught me how to work hard.

Right, right. So I'm going to keep the work hard part. Yes. But I'm going to leave behind the list of things I'm not going to be able to do. And you can see how many people just get bitter. And the work of distinguishing. You know what I mean? And working through. I'm going to be grateful for this thing they gave me.

And this thing they gave me isn't too helpful, so I'm going to discard it. Do you have anything like that in your life? Where you grew up learning certain lessons or principles, but then you realize, oh, actually that principle doesn't work for me, or that's actually not what's working in the world right now? That's a great question. Yeah. I grew up believing that I was supposed to preach a certain way, but actually I evolved and realized that what I was saying wasn't effective or isn't actually the truth anymore. Yeah, yeah. Well, here's an example.

Well, here's an example. I was trained in a setting that very much emphasized you believe in Jesus so that when you die, you go to heaven somewhere. That's where you grew up. Very much. That was sort of the dominant story. When you believe in Jesus, you die and you go to heaven. There's an afterlife and people go one of two places. Heaven or hell. And you better believe, say, pray the right stuff so that when you die, you can go to the right place. So that's what you grew up believing.

That was the story. Okay. And I don't know how much at a young age you're like, oh, yeah, that's definitely how it goes. Or you're just like, it's a new Star Wars movie coming out. You know what I mean? But when in my early 20s, I began, I was introduced, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's about now. The story is not about getting into someplace when you die. It's about life before death.

It's not about getting into heaven. It's about bringing heaven here. Heaven on earth. Yeah. It's about living in this world in a particular way. And you begin to live like that, you'll be fine when you die. Right. And that that's actually Jesus' message.

And that when he used the phrase eternal life, he was talking about a particular kind of life right now, like this conversation we're having. Yeah. And the joy of talking about the big questions of life, and we don't want to be anywhere else but right here right now. Yeah, exactly. That's living.

And the food, the meal we just had. It was amazing. Rob just made us an incredible vegan meal from Rich Roll's book. It was unbelievable. So that's living. Yeah. And you and I and your listeners, what are we here to do? What have I been given?

How can I spread that around? Yeah. How can I share what I've been blessed with with those who need it? Right. That's just a whole different discussion. Yeah. And there's no fear in that discussion. There's no worry or strife. Am I going to get it? It's a life lived in love and joy. And you're hooking up with something. You're in the flow of something. You're hearing a song that's been playing for a number of years and you're moving to it. You're dancing to up with something. You're in the flow of something. You're hearing a song that's been playing for a number of years, and you're moving to it.

You're dancing to it. You even have to shift into metaphors at that point because literal language will fail you. And that was a huge, because when I was trained as a pastor, it was kind of like, okay, we got to get everybody, whatever, converted, signed up, believing. And I gradually began to realize, wait, some of these people, whatever the official party line is, saved, converted, whatever, they're miserable. Right. They're completely jacked up. There's got to be some other thing we're doing here. Yeah, so I had a major, actually my entire working life. When you're going to school to be a priest

they were saying these things and you started yeah you just sort of pick it up sometimes it's very direct here's the point of all this and sometimes you just pick it up in the practice what actually is said and then I got into my first job as a pastor and then um I just kept

going and kept growing. Like the Iraq war, we were spending $10 billion a month on a war that a lot of people were like, what are we doing exactly here? Yeah. And I was trained in a sort of world that was like, you talk about spiritual things, you talk about heaven, and you talk about matters of the heart. And it was like, wait, wait, wait. No, you talk about war and peace and guns and loving our neighbor. conduct ourselves in having integrity in business, not invading countries under shady conditions.

This is all part of what spirituality is. It's what we do with this gift we've been given. So for me, it just kept getting bigger, wider, more interesting. And I think probably at first, well, when you're trained as a Christian pastor, it's about let's be Christian. But what kept happening as a pastor is I realized, wait, I'm talking about what it means to be human. This is about what it means to be human. And then all these people would come to hear me speak from all these different backgrounds. Afterwards, like you, I would hug people and talk to whoever wanted to talk. And the people who would come up to talk were like, every religion, every background.

People who were like, listen, I'm an atheist, but I come hear you every week because I love it. And I started like, wait, wait, wait. There is a common humanity that we all share. And what we've done is invented all of these categories and labels, liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist. We just keep coming up with distinctions about distinctions. You know what I mean? Right.

You know what I mean? Right. And in my work, I kept realizing, it was like I just kept going down another layer deeper. There is a common humanity we all share. We all want to know how to worry less. We all want more courage to do what we know is the right thing. We all want to pass on to the next generation a better world. We all have this inner voice that keeps whispering to us, this is why you're here.

Whether you're a yoga instructor or a school teacher or a mom or an entrepreneur, you have these moments when you're doing something and something within you says, this is why you're here. This is your jam. This is your thing. And then we have, my wife calls it the social self. You have all these voices around you yelling at you about who you are and what you're supposed to be doing here. And that you have your true self, your North Star, your inner, they call it the Christ wisdom, that just keeps speaking to you about who you truly are. And sometimes it takes incredible courage to do the thing that you know is who you really are because you've got all these people you got family members and neighbors and the kid the people you went to college with who are like who do you think you are to try that so what happens

when everyone's against yeah your inner truth right like you should be doing right and everyone else is like no that's wrong that's evil, that's bad, you're horrible. I actually think now to pursue your true self, if there will always bring some form of conflict. Wow. There almost always will be something aligned against you. Whether it's even just a voice in your head of something somebody said to you 11 years ago about you. That's not a legitimate career. And you're like, but it is a great life.

It's amazing how many people I've met. They were told something about the thing that they know they're here to do years ago. Something negative. They were told something about the thing that they know they're here to do years ago, something negative, and it's still like a tape playing on repeat in your head. And they haven't taken the leap or the step to go forward yet. In my experience, there's always some step. There are these moments when you just step forward. moments when you just step forward and and i always say you have enough color and shape and texture or there's enough light to know what direction to leap into but if you but if you had too much detail and guarantee then it wouldn't be interesting then it wouldn't be faith it

wouldn't be a risk then everybody would do it it. And everybody would be kicking, you know, hitting it out of the park. And everybody's not hitting out of the park. If we could read our future 10 years, if we took a step in this and we could see 10 years down the line what would happen, wouldn't it be as interesting? And there's so many people, you can't believe how many people I meet with who they have some next step, and it's so clear. And they're like, I don't know, I just... And you meet with them five years later, and they haven't taken their step, and they're wondering. And sometimes it's as simple as like, you need to take that class.

And you know you need to take... They'll even tell you, I feel like I should just take that class and see whatever it is, real estate license class. Right, right. And they'll be like, yeah, still, I just haven't gotten around to it. It's like, then don't come back and say you feel stalled. Because five years ago you and I had lunch and you were like, I just have this sense like maybe I'm, that's how it works.

You know, talking about marriage, what if there's a situation where there's a marriage that's holding someone's back? Yeah. And they're like, I don't feel like I can get a divorce because that goes against all of my beliefs that I've been taught. And it's wrong and it's evil and I'm not supposed to do it. I'm supposed to make it work and figure it out, but it's holding you back.

What are your thoughts on that? Some marriages are dead and it's all law and no spirit. We have a ring. We have a marriage certificate somewhere. But the truth is, it probably died seven years ago. Wow. Should they stick it out? It's admirable, and it's noble to just stay in it.

I mean, a lot of people, that can be a very... That's what happens. But sometimes it's dead. And I generally avoid any large, broad stroke because every single marriage I've ever dealt with was different. Yes. But I have dealt with a lot of people. You've married a lot of people, right? Oh, my word.

I've done weddings in prisons, on snowboards. I did a wedding where the best man was his dog. I've done weddings on boats. How many weddings have you done? Hundreds. Wow. I did a wedding. I did a wedding and the dude wrote a song for his bride.

So at one point in the wedding ceremony, like in the notes, it was like so-and-so sings. So he's holding hands with her. He lets go of her hands. He walks over, picks up an acoustic guitar. He goes to the mic and starts playing the song. First off, one of the worst guitar players I've ever heard. mic and starts playing the song first off one of the worst guitar players i ever heard you know all the best but one of the worst guitar players ever heard starts playing starts singing but doesn't know the words oh man so he's just mum it's like i just want to

i just want to okay and then here she had a one of those names that's like a two-word first name. We're going to go, well, let's say Bobby Joe. Okay, Marianne. But the chorus was her name repeated. So he starts playing. I just want to be, I just want to hold you. I just want to do it. A Marianne, a Marianne, a Marianne.

Second verse. Because you're just so special. I just, a Marianne, a Marianne. I'm Mary Ann. I'm Mary Ann. Second verse. Because you're just so special. I'm Mary Ann. I'm Mary Ann. He finishes the song. I use that term loosely. And he puts the guitar down and he walks back over, stands in front of her, grabs her hands, and they're facing each other for the vows.

And the audience, no reaction from the audience. It's the closest I've ever been in a wedding to just wanting to be like, hold on a second. Did anyone just realize what happened here? What are you? Like, it's the closest I've ever been to just saying to the bride, are you sure? Are you sure? Because that was insane. This is the one.

Or maybe you're even more in love than ever. I don't know. Wow. But going back to you saying. So I always just begin. You don't want to have a. Some are dead and they've been dead for a while. And.

You're saying it was. Probably some honesty. You have to just start with some honesty. And often what happens is the really beautiful impulse to stay in it, to honor it, to cherish it, to respect the sacred bond, which I'm 100% for, can mask the fact that this union was dead a long time ago. And sometimes one person has checked out and has no interest. And I've seen people part ways and it's awful. And yet in some way, I can't tell you the number of people who I've seen them part ways and then find somebody else.

And it's like their lives just go to a whole new level. Wow. So I always begin with that, partly because for many people, they haven't heard that perspective. What they've only ever heard is you stay in it no matter what. Yeah. You make it work. You grow it out. And I don't mean to trivialize. I don't say this to trivialize. I don't say, hey, whatever you're in, here's a pass. And then secondly, and more importantly—

Do you think it's okay to leave a marriage if for seven years it's been dead, you've both done everything you can and you've worked? I have seen things die a long time ago. And here's the thing. I believe in miracles. I've seen things resurrected. Yes. There's no possible way. So that thing could have come back to life, and it did. Right. And I've seen a resurrected. Yes. There's no possible way. So that thing could have come back to life, and it did.

Right. And I've seen a ton of those. Yes. So I begin with some are dead. Then I move to, but the really interesting mystery is when things come back to life. And I've seen that happen again and again and again, and I believe in that. I believe that people can completely throw themselves into, let's start over. But the problem is, if you don't begin with, okay, here's the deal.

We both need to die to how it's been so that this thing can be reborn. Yeah. Because the way we've been doing, none of this is working. But you need two parties. You need two people who are both totally owning their side of the street. Yeah. Taking responsibility. And not blaming.

That is so beautiful. Yeah. my mouth. Sometimes there's so much pain, hurt, so many wounds that it will take a miracle. And there's no way they're going to, they're so far apart. There's so much pain and wound. Yeah. And sometimes it's like, you know what? Stop beating each other up. You're both just dying here. Yeah. And then I say at the exact same time but i've seen those

very situations turned around wow time and time again so yeah any clear answer there it's important to just hold these are all realities yeah that are present in marriage um and is it better to if something's dead for you know dead and then stays dead for 20 years is it better to be in a dead person and but stay committed to the law of a marriage or to right break it off and actually unleash your greatest joy in the world right right impact people in a positive right right and create a new relationship right that sparks joy and inspiration in other people. I begin with, if you're going to part ways, give it everything you have. Because you, for the rest of your life, will regret it

if the two of you didn't give it everything you have. So even for what we're talking about now, that to me is above all else. Give it, both of you, everything you have. Read every book. See every therapist. See every therapist. See every counselor. Interview every couple that somehow managed to stay together and have a

thriving relationship. Do everything you can. So any easy, cheap, oh good, I have a pass now, completely to me violates this powerful, profound thing. Kristen and I met when we were 18. We were friends for four years. Nothing ever really happened until we were both

ended up in LA and we had like a best friend thing. We were friends for years. I thought she was like the greatest. I was like if I ever grew up that's the kind of woman you would want to be with. I mean I always just was so in awe of her. I would like get all sort of choked up or like I didn't really know what to say around her sometimes

because I was just so kind of in awe of her but we we just were given this extraordinary gift of like we saw our life together like as a an adventure and we're like 21 years in having more fun than ever wow we seriously laughed so hard just today we were just walking in the neighborhood we just have so it it's been unbelievable. Yeah. You guys are great. So we're very aware that we're really, really, really fortunate. Yeah. But not everyone has that.

Exactly. And how do they find that? Exactly. And what if it doesn't come until they're 30 or 40 or? That's one. Last year we had this book come out that we wrote on marriage called The Zimzum of Love. It's a great book. We tried to put everything in a book that was like, if someone said to us, how do I live and look for somebody to share my life with? Yeah.

We tried to put all that in a book. That speaks my truth, that I can understand, They can understand. Yeah. And the really interesting thing we tried to do that was compelling to us was we tried to write a book that was honest about how difficult marriage can be and also really inspiring about what it can be. Yeah. Because nothing, if you're in a difficult relationship, if you're in a painful marriage and someone's like, it's so awesome, you're like, what do you have to say to me? But also when someone goes, no, this could be really great. Like we need to hear that sort of thing. So how do you bring good news that's also honest about how unbelievably painful this thing can be? And that sort of was driving us in the book is let's let everybody know who

this institution of marriage has been incredibly heartbreaking. We get it. We understand. We hear you. Here are some thoughts about this whole thing. Yeah. It's a great book, by the way. I recommend everyone get it.

We'll have it linked up as well. That's very kind of you. Yeah, it's amazing. downtime, stressful situation, struggle, adversity, whether internally or just around them, what do you think they should put their faith or belief in in those moments? And when it seems like, man, months, years go by where it's like a struggle, what should they believe in in those moments? I begin... Or what should they do in general?

Think and do. I begin... Or what should they do in general? Think and do. I begin with returning to the assumption that there is power at work in the universe, bigger and beyond you. And that whatever this is, it is temporary. At some point it will pass. And you have to begin with the moment I say this is how it is, period, I am now firmly into despair, and despair is a spiritual condition. Despair is when you fall and pray to the belief that tomorrow will simply be a repeat of today.

That's despair. repeat of today. That's despair. And that that is a spiritual disease. That's a spiritual condition that needs to be confronted. Oh, wait, this is despair. This is the lie that tomorrow will be a repeat of today. It's not true. So you have to begin with the assumptions that we generally go to is we take whatever this experience is, and then we look into the future, and all of those squares on the calendar of days, it's just an endless succession of this. But what we know is that we're in it, and it will pass because all is temporal. And then the second question is, which is why having some sort of spiritual tradition or practice is really helpful. I begin with the assumption that spirit is always up to something, that there are forces or a force

larger than me that is doing something in this. So keep your eyes open, pay attention, because something is unfolding here. Some call it, the mystics call it, the presence in the absence. In the absence of hope and bounty and abundance and joy, in that absence there's a presence doing something. Yeah. So think about how many people you meet who... The dark matter, you mean? Yeah, you talk to them about how did your...

Tell me about key moments in your life or how did you get to where you are. They generally tell you stories about loss, heartache, pain. So... The lessons they learned in those moments. The moments when we most want to check out are actually the moments to pay attention like never before. Because things don't die without things being born and that's the power of death and of the death and resurrection story as a way of understanding your life is something's dying here and things die and then new things are born. So I lost my job. That's a death.

And I'm going to have to grieve it. And it's going to be painful. But that also means that some sort of new, I'm not going to be working there. All right. Right, right. So that's going to be painful. And especially if you love that job or a relationship.

Ends. Yeah, or a fiance or a spouse cheats on you or somebody you love dies, cancer, car wreck, whatever it is. There's a very real grieving and a loss. But if you are willing to go into the heart of that pain and suffering, you will not come out the other side the same person. What's been the hardest point in your life, most challenging experience you've gone through and the lesson you learned from that? That I set out to help people and to bring people good news about who they are and what's possible for their life.

and in probably my early 30s, I started getting criticized. I think the first time it really happened is I did a whole series of sermons about women's equality. Women should be free to be whoever they're here to be, because that's obvious. And a whole group of very dogmatic religious folks in the church that I had started, organized and tried to have me removed as the pastor of the church I started and became very angry and mean and nasty. And that was probably the first time

I experienced serious opposition, and I experienced a particular kind of venom. Religious people spew a particular kind of venom when they believe they're defending the Almighty. Isn't that funny? I mean, you can see it in politics right now. When people believe they need to take their country back, that's a particular kind of energy. You know what I mean? Yeah. out front. That became a regular part of my life. And then finding out that this person is doing a series of

sermons against me and they have hundreds of thousands of followers because I don't believe that God sends billions of people to burn in hell forever simply because they haven't said a particular prayer or something. That's not good news. That's a horror story. So I for me...

What do you learn about yourself in those lessons? That we desperately want to be understood. We want to be liked. We want to be popular. We want everybody to get what we're doing. And you cannot control the outcomes and you cannot control how people will respond to you and your work in the world. Lewis Howes cannot control how people will respond to Lewis Howes' voice and work in the world.

So at some point, you have to find the joy in being Lewis Howes and doing the work you're here to do. The joy has to be there, because if your joy is in how many books you're going to sell. Pleasing people. Exactly. If your joy is in selling X amount of books, that may happen, it may not. It may happen on the next book, it may not. If your joy is in the outcome, and goals are lovely and plans are nice, but if your joy is in a particular response from people, you may get that, you may not.

And what you've done, if you place your joy in a particular outcome, is you have placed your joy in the future. And all you have is now. So the real joy is in doing what you're here to do today. And people may like you. They may not. They may protest you. They may not. They may do really, really well-organized boycotts of you.

They may not. They may... What my book, Love Wins, my editor told me 12 books have been written against my book Love Wins. So you can go on Amazon. Apparently, you can go on and find 12 books people wrote against that book. So you might have numbers of people literally publishing books against your one book, which I think is hilarious. What do they say? Love loses?

Well, that's the thing about it. What wins? It's so awesome. Exactly. Hate wins. Like literally people like, what is all this God is love talk? I know. What a crazy idea. And that is my greatest

lesson has been learning, oh, wait, all the things that your ego wants to be loved and admired and respected and understood may not happen. And if that doesn't happen and you keep going and now you're dangerous, now you're dangerous because you're here and the worst that could happen happened and we're doing fine. So let's do some stuff.

Right. So I, I've never had more fun. I've never had more of a sense of wonder and awe that I get to do this, but that didn't come without some serious heat and fire and some sleepless nights to say the least. Yeah. What would you say, what would you say are the three to five values that you live your life by? Or do you have a set of values, principles, it, like your creed? Yeah, I begin with there's more going on here. So when you talk about what you put your faith on, spirituality, God, believing in Jesus, whatever you want to say, I just begin in every situation with there's more going on here.

So whether it's suffering loss, whether I'm just having a conversation with somebody that I've never met, there's more going on here. So always assume that what I would just call spirit is at work. You have no idea what the, oh, I'm thinking, oh, yeah, we're driving Christmas Day. We drove from L.A. over to Phoenix and we stopped to get gas. And I'm walking out of the gas station and it hits me wait that woman is working on Christmas day so I stop and talk to her because I could get gas and get my family across the desert because this woman is working on Christmas day so I just stopped and thanked her just chatted with her for a minute because something about the moment was like

just give that woman some love and respect because she's working in a gas station so you didn't even think about it. You didn't think, I hope somebody's working on Christmas Day. You just live with this assumption. Yeah, I'll be able to get gas. Well, somebody had to be away from family to work

in a gas station on Christmas. So I begin with there's always more going on here. And then number two, integrity. Live your life so that all could be made known and you wouldn't have anything you were embarrassed about. So especially when I was young and I started, I realized that my work had this public dimension to it and that I was

actually in public talking about spiritual things who am I to do this you know what I mean you can never answer that question but you can live with integrity in all areas of your life. Ruthless integrity. So if anything smells of any

dishonest, unfair, exploitive, I'm not interested. No way. I can't. And that's not because I'm scared of some weird, outdated morality. It's because that's the only way I can do what I do is to live like with just ruthless integrity.

Do you feel like you always live with ruthless integrity? That is a value. And the ability to go, oh, I cut a corner there. I shouldn't have done that. Well, how do I make amends? I need to call that person and just say to them. I've literally gone over to people's houses, knocked on the door, and said, I just came by to say I'm so sorry for what I said the other day. I didn't mean that.

I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. But I got in my car and drove to their place because somehow that for me was how you make, you do everything you can to make it right. You fell out of integrity in that moment. Yeah. Just sometimes you just have this, call them and apologize in case they took that the wrong way. Yeah. Just call them.

Don't live wondering what if. Sure. And then. That was two oh yeah number three i don't know if you have you begin you find the divine in the every day you find the divine in the valley not the mountain so for kristin and i and making lunches for the kids in the morning and, well, you're there tonight making a smoothie like watching football with my other son. The warp and woof of your everyday life. It has to work there before you have anything to say or give beyond the walls of this house. So if I have anything in my writings or podcast or my tours or anything to say to the world, that's not the mountain with a microphone on a stage in front of lots of people.

The mountain, the peak experience, is putting my daughter to bed just now. You have to find it. Like you were saying the past couple of days, you were getting all this work done. Yeah, I was in the zone. You love, and what you were telling Kristen and I, you were all alone in your apartment

just getting stuff done and loving it so the public lewis house and the joy that you give people through your podcast and books and tours and work and all that that starts with you all alone doing the work stuff dad yeah and and that's a lot of people like how do you have a how do you have a voice how do you have a big whatever you know what i mean um start with you on an average tuesday in october yeah at 9 a.m at your desk or going to a meeting whatever it starts there um because people not the speaking gig once every six months that's the frosting not the cake Yeah. It starts with your everyday disciplines and routines that ground you and center you. And that's, to me, like this desk right here, every morning, I sit down there after the

kids go to school and I work on whatever the next thing is. And I have moments at that desk. I've had that desk since 2000. I've had moments where I'm literally sitting there with tears in my eyes because I've stumbled into something like, oh, oh, that's good. And I, and whatever it is I stumbled into, I'm realizing how it's affecting me, how it's changing me, how it's helping me see. And then it's, okay, how can I put language on that to share with people um how could i tell that story in a way that people could see what i've seen

but it starts with my own deep personal experience of the world yeah um and those own moments and that's that's where it starts it doesn't start on some oh i'm going to take a, you know what I mean? It starts there. Wow. Would you say those are the three core values or do you have more? I could go all day on this stuff. That's a good start. Yeah.

There we go. That's a good start. That's a good start. I like it. So you said there's more going on here. Integrity, live your life so that it all could be made known and you wouldn't be embarrassed by it. Yeah. And find the divine in the't be embarrassed by it. Yeah. And

find the divine in the valley not the mountain. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's great. That's good. There's more going on here especially if you have a boring job. And I've talked to lots of people about this. You have a job where you're like, yeah, but you don't understand what I do all day.

It's actually more powerful in jobs that appear to be more mundane and sort of even boring is walk into that call center for another day of work and even write it out on a card. There's more going on here. So an example would be you have a break and your coworker who totally annoys you, Bruce, Carol, you know, it's like, oh, I had an awful weekend. And everything within you is like, Carol, Bruce, I am so, everything within you is like, the and you say, Bruce, tell me about why your weekend was awful. You have no idea in that moment when you move from indifference to a question. What might be just, because that person said my weekend is awful.

Translation, could somebody please ask me how my weekend was so I could get this thing off my chest that I'm carrying around? Yeah. You have no idea what extraordinary, sacred encounter can come from a question like that. And all of a sudden, you see Bruce not as the most annoying co-worker ever, human sandpaper, but Bruce is a human being struggling like all the rest of us. Right. And often we're one question, comment, you lean in instead of away, you know what I mean? From something really interesting. Uh-huh.

We're just that close. And yet we're like, oh, please. And we walk away. That's how it works amazing well this has been incredible did we cover some good we covered some great stuff I'm going to finish with your definition of greatness

which I'm going to record on snapchat here in a second but I want to acknowledge you Rob I appreciate it the last time we came on I acknowledged you for all the gifts that you bring oh that's so kind of you I want to acknowledge you, Rob. I appreciate it. The last time we came on, I acknowledged you for all the gifts that you bring to the world. Oh, that's so kind of you. And I want to acknowledge you for coming back on and diving in even deeper with me. I think originally I had an idea of where I wanted this to go,

and then it just kind of went in so many amazing directions that I was so grateful that you shared your wisdom on this. And this is just one man's point of view. Everyone listening, it's not the Bible. Correct. It is an one man's point of view. Everyone listening, it's not the Bible. Correct. It is an opinion and a point of view. Absolutely. For me, I feel like, again, you're like a great spiritual guide for me. You're a great spiritual

compass for me to just continue to be curious and ask questions. And I'm always asking questions about what's true, what's not true, what's possible, what's not possible. And so I just like to be reminded of stories, lessons, examples of how we can live our best, truest lives and you continue to provide that for so many people like you did today on this podcast. So thank you for all that you continue to do. I loved it.

That you continue to do. I love talking to you i know it's great and i highly recommend everyone go download and subscribe to the rob cast you can check it out on itunes you can go to rob bell.com check it out i'll have a bunch of links up here afterwards on the show notes about how you can get his books the ones i like and recommend but make sure to subscribe to the podcast it's one of the very few that I actually listen to. Of the 400,000 podcasts out there on iTunes, Rob's is one of the top. And he's doing a lot of touring this year, a lot of great events.

So make sure to subscribe to his newsletter. You get a free book that he just came out with. If you subscribe to his newsletter, I believe you still get that book for free. It's on my website. It's a novel. Yeah, they can just get it. And get on his newsletter because he's always doing events around the country

and you want to see him live. I'm telling you, it's going to blow your mind. I saw him live this last summer and his talk was so powerful and it doesn't matter what religion or belief you have, you're going to find some wisdom and knowledge that's going to support your life. So, Rob, final question is what's your definition of greatness?

Oh, greatness is when you leave the room and people have more hope than when you entered the room. I think that's the same answer you gave last time. Is it really? I think so. I love it, man. Let's keep it real simple. I love it, man. Rob Bell, thank you so much for coming on.

I appreciate it. I loved it. My pleasure. And there you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed part two. Again, if you haven't subscribed to Rob Bell's stuff, make sure to head over to robbell.com and check out the show notes, lewishouse.com slash 276. Make sure to send both of these episodes to your friends, share it over on Facebook and Twitter and Google Plus and Instagram and all that good stuff.

Snapchat, I'm hanging out more on Snapchat these days. So make sure to follow me there to see my daily stories and tips and inspiration. Again, lewishouse.com slash 276 for this episode. If this is your first episode you came to, then go back to 275 and listen to both of them together. I love you guys. I thank you so much. We've got some big guests coming up. So make sure to subscribe to the School of Greatness podcast over on iTunes, Stitcher,

and SoundCloud. And you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.