The School of Greatness - 3 PROVEN Strategies to Winning Every Negotiation (Command the Room!)

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

Today Lewis speaks with three experts to unlock the secrets of mastering negotiations, earning respect and trust, and sparking positive conversations. First, former FBI negotiator Chris Voss shares his insights on winning every negotiation with strategic tactics. Next, former Secret Service agent Evy Pompouras teaches listeners how to gain respect and trust from anyone with confidence and integrity. Finally, viral trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher provides valuable tips on how to spark positive relationships through conversation mastery. You won't want to miss these invaluable insights that can revolutionize the way you communicate, connect, and negotiate more effectively!In this episode you will learnHow to use tactical empathy and mirroring techniques to win negotiations.The importance of body language and verbal cues in gaining trust and respect.Strategies for turning adversarial conversations into collaborative discussions.Tips for maintaining composure and confidence in high-pressure situations.Techniques for fostering positive relationships through effective communication.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1588IT’S MY BIRTHDAY! 41 years for me, 41 gifts for you – register to win a $250 Amazon gift card by clicking this LINKFor more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]Full episodes featured today:Chris Voss – https://lewishowes.com/podcast/the-art-of-negotiating-in-business-and-life-with-former-fbi-agent-chris-voss-podcast/Evy Pompouras – https://link.chtbl.com/1270-podJefferson Fisher – https://link.chtbl.com/1473-pod

Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in. Secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now, I'm coming at you as a very control-oriented negotiator. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage. Negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you want to get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control. And the nicer you are, the more

movable you could be. You don't have to give up that much assertion. You just, you don't want to be that mean. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if i ask hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions the nicer you are the more movable you could be the style of being you can be very aggressive without or very assertive without being aggressive you don't have to give up that much assertion you just you don't want to be that mean You don't want to be that mean. You don't want to be that hard on people. For example, what do you mean? Like how?

Well, you know, we're in L.A. Yes. There's a great guy here in town. His name is Tom Girardi. Voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the Bar Association. He gets a voted top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page,

they say, again. Wow. So he comes in and he's a guest of my class at USC. And I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's going to be an attack dog. Because I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class, and he says, you know, the key to negotiation is being nice and gentle. Now, what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard. And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent.

And that's why he's so successful and he's ridiculously nice about it. Like he smiles and he chats with people and he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. You get into an argument with him and immediately he'll bend it where he's talking with you

about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now or in the future, which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does. Like if you're barricading a bank, I'm going to say, my first goal is to get you out of there alive.

Well, I picked a point in the future that we can collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively, and he's just super nice about it. I mean, either you're going to cooperate with him because you like him so much, he's never going to let up on you, or more than likely you're going to say something accidentally and and he gets people saying stuff accidentally and he and then he could and then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally he lets you say so many things accidentally what do you mean well like you know he loves to get people on on uncovered emails that

they never should have written. Like if you send Tom an email saying, Tom, let's go have lunch together, he will not email you back saying, okay. Because he doesn't put anything in emails because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit. Somebody who's done something wrong is going to put it in an email. And Tom knows if he's nice to the other side long enough, he's going to figure out where those emails are. So, and that's what people do all the time. You know, lawsuits are uncovered.

People get into trouble with what they put in emails. Wow. When they say, hey, they sent an email to somebody else. They say, hey, you know, we shouldn't be doing this. And a person sends an email back saying like, yeah, it's okay. Nobody's ever going to find out. Oh, my gosh. In today's day day and age people put stuff in emails and so tom knows he's just relentlessly nice relentless and the most charming guy you ever met in your life wow so you don't have to be aggressive secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations given the other side the illusion

of control now i'm coming at you as a very control-oriented negotiator. Right. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage. Because then you feel like you're in control. Right. You don't have to try to gain it anymore. Right, right. I'm more than likely going to start dropping my, if I'm a control-free guy, if I want to talk all the time, I'm a control-free guy.

I'm a control freak guy. If I want to talk all the time, I'm a control freak guy. Control freak negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you want to get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control. Right. So you did a real nice job with that. Now, the another thing that we teach is see you're not going to give me a car right and you're trying to make it sound like you were going to yeah now i teach how to say no uh-huh and and then you want to feel other ways of saying because

the real answer to that just like at the very beginning of my book you're supposed to look look at me and say how am i supposed to do that so poise it back to a question right a how question an open-ended question well not just open-ended how okay how is the key to life yes is nothing without how so you never find and and you could also start talking about how without talking about yes so just say what i would say you could say how would i do that talking about yes. So just say, would I even say. You could say, how would I do that? Would I say, I'd love to get you what you need. How would I do that?

Just how would I do that? How would I do that? So give them the control to figure out the solution. Right, right, right. How am I supposed to get you the car in that time frame? Because that's what you're trying to express. There actually is a time problem here. Right.

In 60 seconds seconds how am i supposed to get you a car right right that that's different than we can get a car we just need 60 more seconds right we need more time yeah right because because now i think now i think you're ducking me okay but if you instead you say like how am i you know of course the cars are out here right away but first of all i gotta i to tell everybody what we're going to do. I don't need anybody to get surprised. Let's talk through the details of how this is going to get done. In the meantime, what got you here in the first place?

How do you find yourself in this kind of a situation? How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of a situation. How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of how questions. How am I supposed to promise to get you a car if I don't know that she's going to come out alive? You take what you want

and make it the path to what I want. You know, how am I supposed to get you in here if it doesn't benefit me also? Right. So as soon as in any negotiation what I want is now a means of getting what you want,

then that changes the dynamic right away. So how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want, they're very controlling, alpha, and it's their way or no way. Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list.

First of all, being in control is number one on their list, and that's emotionally satisfying. The second thing is the alpha type, which is, we refer to that as the assertive. The one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from. And it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, you know what? My boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out or she heard me out. I can live with the direction that we're going

as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion. And so that the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respectably, They felt that they conducted themselves respectably, that you respected them, and that you knew what they were coming from. And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want. If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and demanding. Right, right, right, right. Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me. Right is i want you to know how important this is to me right i want you to know how important i am so how do you meet that person just come to them with respect or with calm or you could say look you're you're impressive you're phenomenal you've thought

it's all out this is very yeah i mean clearly you know where you're coming from. You know what you want. I'm lucky to be talking to you at all. I mean, were I to sit down with Donald Trump, I would, in fact, be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him. I'd say, you're an American icon. You're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah, you know, stroke in their ego is not a bad thing.

And, you know, it's a version of empathy because that's how they see themselves. And, you know, the emotional recognition, like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal. I just don't want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency. I'm saving my money. With emotional empathy, currency, intelligence. Right, right. My money's too important to me to waste it

when I could buy something with satisfaction. So yeah, I'm enormously tight with my dollars. And so many people, especially men in business deals, I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want. And so somehow they'll lose money because they're not able to have empathy or they're not able to whatever.

They're not able to drop their ego. Yeah, a lot of money's left on the table over stuff like that. Or what they value themselves out. Price is the most price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price but if i can get you to value yourself in another way and put you on a magazine cover i mean stroke the ego in some other way it used to be you get donald trump in any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a

cover you know imagine the amount of time and that used to be his deal magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover. You know, imagine the amount of time. And that used to be his deal. If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the cover. And then he would knock himself out for the people doing the articles. Oh, yeah. On access. Anything. Answering questions.

Imagine how valuable his time was. They got a cover to the magazine anyway. They got to put somebody on it. Now they're trading something that costs them nothing. Right. And he's giving them dynamic interviews. And he's promoting them hard, and he's sharing them with everyone. Yeah, exactly right.

He's framing it everywhere. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition. So what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field? And also, how do those translate into the business and relationship world, just in general, outside of? Well, let the other side go first.

You know, most people are so, they're burning with their argument. Here's why you should make this deal. And they've got that memorized. And they're not going to listen to a word you say until they get it out. So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic. Because they're rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic. And so you just can't get through to them. So you let them go first.

Another guy, Ned Colletti, former GM of the Dodgers, friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator. He's lectured in my class at USC also. And Ned always likes to let the other side go first. He did the Barry Bonds deal. He's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, well, in a two-hour phone call, there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold. Where the person I'm talking to, based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used,

I mean, he's got an instinct for it. He couldn't identify. He's just always saying there's 90 seconds of solid gold. And I'd say, what is that? Right. And we talk it through. And he says, well, yeah, it's 90 seconds to sock gold. And I'd say, what is that? Right. And we'd talk it through. And he says, well, yeah, it's going to be a change in the tone of voice. It's going to be a different kind of adjective.

So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what it's going to take to make the deal. What they want. Right. Yeah. What they're burning for or how they characterize what they have. Or what they're not saying, too, maybe. Exactly right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said,

which is why I give it a little thought in advance. What are they going to say if they've got this? So I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said, what's glaringly missing. And that's going to take, I'm going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me. Okay, okay.

Who are the most difficult people to work with then? Would you say it's the alpha people or would you say it's the uncertain people or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with? You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match that has a tendency, it's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal. Like I don't like liars.

The most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through, which is as bad as a liar, only their heart's not in the wrong place. They don't know what they want specifically. Or they don't know how they're going to get this done, which is, again, we go over and over again. I go over and over again. Yes is nothing without how. And the person who thinks yes is going to make a deal,

well, yes is not going to make a deal because you've got to have how. How are we going to put this together? And someone that doesn't think things through a lot of times, they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises. And so when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them, they take it back to their company, and their company goes like, no, we're not doing this. This is a stupid idea.

We can't do this. Sure. And that happens a lot. this. And that happens a lot. I think in a private sector, I've heard from a number of companies that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company. And the company says, no, that violates our terms and conditions. We can't deliver on that basis. So you're dealing with someone who just doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side. There are a lot of people like that. When you're making a business deal, what

do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying, yes, let's do it? Like, here's the deal points. Here's what you want. Here's what I want. Okay. Should we sign it right away? Should we give it 24 hours? Should we take it to our team should it be a week you know what's like kind of a standard you think um unless you've got something in line ahead of time um the company name is a black swan group because we believe there's black swans in every negotiation which is something you didn't know that as soon as you found out it's going to change all the parameters the deal gotcha so you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns. Huh. And it's impossible to research all the unknowns. Plus, a lot of the unknowns, I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you.

Right. And I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes. For example, what do you mean, something you'd want to ask? What do you mean? Something you'd want to ask? I'm speaking for a long-time client, and they have another firm that I've been affiliated with doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could suddenly reach back through my network to find out what the competing slash partnership firm of mine is, what they're charging, or I could just flat out.

Ask them. Well, I need to get the information. A lot of information you got to get by not asking. You got to trigger it. You know, the phrase, ask good questions, it's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know, or if there are other ways, hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions. When people feel too comfortable with you,

they will challenge you more. In what ways? They will test you more. They will push back more. The more comfortable people feel with you. Think of it. The people that know you the best in life, they push you back. They push back the most. They'll call you out the most. And sometimes not in a healthy way, in an unpleasant way. But if you're, there's something powerful with keeping some things about you to you. You don't have to be an open book. And I know this goes against a lot of be vulnerable, be vulnerable. I'm not telling you to be a jerk and I'm not telling you to conceal everything about you. But what I'm telling you is you need to have a filter. Nobody needs to know, people don't need to know everything about you. Keep that stuff to yourself. When you were doing your interviews or interrogations, would you ever, or did you ever become too vulnerable as a, I guess,

strategy to try to get the other person to open up and share their vulnerabilities and kind of reveal that they did the thing they did? I think what I just did is I empathized the most. Because in truth, can I... I can see how you feel about this. I haven't experienced, you know, I had a feeling... Well, if it's a criminal investigation, hopefully not. Oh, you killed her? Well, I could see how you feel about this. I haven't experienced, you know, I had a feeling. Well, if it's a criminal investigation, hopefully not. Oh, you killed her?

Well, I could see why. Why I felt this in my life or whatever it may be. No, because that would be disingenuous. So I'll give you an example. There's a difference between pretending, I understand, and understanding. Empathy is I've been there with you. So when I came in, I said, Lewis, I'm really sorry about your dad. Right?

Yes. So I've also lost my dad. Yeah. So if I said to you, Lewis, I'm sorry about your dad, I understand how that feels. Can I say that to you? Do I understand? Because I lost my dad. Right.

You would say she lost her father too, so she understands. Now, if I never lost my father. You can't say that. And I said that to you, you kind of be like, you don't really know. Yeah. You still have your dad. Yeah. So when you empathize with someone in a scenario where,

let's say you had just lost your dad and I didn't, I would try to empathize. That must be very difficult. I'm sorry to hear that. But not relating it to yourself. Not relating to myself. and I didn't, I would try to empathize. That must be very difficult. I'm sorry to hear that. Now- But not relating it to yourself. Not relating to myself. So the only way you can relate it to yourself

and it be genuine is if you experienced the exact same thing the other person did. So in this scenario, yes, you lost your dad, I lost my dad. So then you would feel genuine. So it would be the same thing when you speak to people right so it's it's how you how you say it so if you if you're not experienced exact same thing the best thing to do is say i'm sorry to hear that that must be so difficult i can't imagine

i'm here for you if you need anything you would do something along those lines instead of saying i know how you feel and trying to, and this is what you don't want to do. Because when you first told me, actually, I didn't say to you, I lost my dad. Because I would take away from what I was sharing with you. I made it now about me. Oh, you lost your dad? Let me tell you about my dad. My dad died too. He died of cancer and all this stuff. And I'll go into that story. It takes away. So it's your story, your narrative, and I'm going gonna let you just talk to me about it and then if later mine comes up fine sure sure so you don't want to make it

about you this is that me me me me syndrome when people are speaking to you allow them to own their story don't feel that you have to be oh yeah i do the same thing oh yeah this they don't one they don't typically care unless you've been through the exact same thing. Oh, yeah this They don't one they don't typically care Unless you've been through the exact same thing and you feel that by bringing that up that person needs that fine, right? But don't do it. We need to yeah, if you don't need to don't bring it in Don't don't bring in the noise Let that person's story be their story because we're doing is you're bringing in your own stuff and give them that moment Yeah, let them have that moment. I want to go back to something you you mentioned briefly that thought be interesting for people when you're asking someone when you want to get information

out of someone boyfriend girlfriend whatever interrogating a criminal whatever it might be is it more employee yes is it more effective to ask direct question did you do this or you did this or is it better to happen ask an open-ended question and see what happens next so direct questions are not good and this is why most people do this they're going for the kill so to speak and they get garbage you get nothing what do people say they shut you down. Nobody, and especially if it's a sensitive topic, they're not going to want to tell you.

It's like, did you do it? Yeah, hey, I did. Let me tell you, sit down. You want to let people adjust. It's almost like you put their feet in the water, in the pool. Your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water. Some people dive in. Sometimes I jump in because it's too cold to just go in. But for the most part, the idea, you acclimate to the water. Some people dive in. Sometimes I jump in because it's too cold to just go in. But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate.

And then by the time you get in, you're the same temperature. When you speak to people, then that's the way to do it. And you don't have to get the information in that moment. You want to work on people over time. So you want to get admissions, which is pieces of information. If we make it about a crime per se, right? Rather than going, well, did you do this? Did you do this to this person? Did you rape this person? Kill this person? Steal this thing. And I would never say

steal. Sounds ugly. Did you take this? Rape sounds ugly too. I would never say rape or kill. I would say, did you hurt this person? Did you lose yourself? I would use different terms. Sounds nicer. Even if somebody lies. Hey, man, you're lying to me. Lewis is a good... No.

Lewis, there's something you're missing. There's something you didn't tell me. I feel there's a part of the story I'm missing here. I want you to be comfortable enough to tell me. So you would say that? Yeah. Sounds different. So that's one. Think about the words coming out of your mouth. What do I sound like? And then more importantly, what do they hear when I speak? Not what do I think I'm saying? Because everyone's like, oh, I just said this. What did I say? It Doesn't matter what you think you said. What matters is what they hear when you speak

based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their drama, their trauma, all their stuff. Because they bring that in when they communicate. So you have to keep that in mind. Are you also thinking about, are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a connection or a conversation with them and get as much information

on them before where they're from who they are you know depends what you want yeah what is your goal like what are you looking to get and obviously sometimes time's a factor if you're hiring somebody i think when you do here's some tips, when you're doing your job interviews or you're bringing people on or you're working with people, you wanna sit them down. You don't wanna sit like the way we are here with a table between you and the person. You want an open space so you've got like,

put them on the sofas, sit down. That's openness. This is a barrier. It's just, it causes a break between us. There's also formality with the table. And I feel like I'm being interviewed. More professional as opposed to relaxed. And the thing is this, if you want to know who you're hiring, let's say, or who you're dealing with or who you're bringing into your space, you want openness and you want them to speak to you

in an open way. Freely. So you can get all the information. Tell me about yourself. How did you grow up? You know? Where are you from? No kidding. What's about this? What about that? Now you get them and then you flow into the other questions. But if people feel like they're being interviewed, they're going to bring that.

So you want to get people to feel comfortable and you want to have that openness. Also, when you have a table, it cuts off the lower body. You can't see their triggers. There's tells. There's tells. There's tells. They cross their legs, they're fidgety. They're fidgety.

Maybe you ask me a question about, Evy, did you ever get fired from a job? And then I cross my legs as soon as you ask me that question. You're not gonna say anything. You're gonna take a mental note. Oh, Evy just crossed her legs right when I asked her that question. Why?

I need to sorry i need to i need to pay attention to that yes right so that you want to just take notice the whole goal is to be curious and so if we can give it a turn maybe you need to lewes yourself. There you go. Yeah. When people come in, you are super curious about them. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly, that you use consistently

that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want? So I do, I absolutely use the what's the chance? Really? Yeah yeah so i will use that when it feels like a circus like a stalemate between the other attorney and look what's the chance that your client's going to be able to do x y and z also i will try to separate the attorney from the client. Same way I do with like

the reception clerk versus the hotel. I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person because I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through. And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine all the updates you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I know that this is how you're doing the best thing you can for your client. I mean, between me and you, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were, if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do? And it gives them something to think about.

Right. The same way, like, let's say at a hotel or something like that, I can only imagine you just been, how long's your shift? Yeah. Yeah, seven hours. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's going to be. And so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says I'm talking to you individually as a person

rather than seeing you as the whole. Because that's who they are. Yeah, exactly. That's powerful. I want to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment. Um, does it sound like you, you really studied and research a lot on how you could manage and, and, and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days. Have you had more panic attacks since the moment? They've gotten less and less and less. Less and less. Like five, ten minutes at a time or something.

Yeah, so I probably haven't had a panic attack. I've gotten very close probably in the last three weeks, but what it is is like a sense of boiling water. Like I can feel the water boiling and then i'm and i can feel it in my body like i can feel it in my fingers of particularly yeah yeah or i'm typically never somebody to shake my leg but if all of a sudden my leg is shaking then i'm like okay something's up and that all like that'll tell me right away of all right what are we doing?

What's going on? Be able to kind of check in with myself and how that's been. But it's progressed much better. Getting better. Yeah, it really has. Therapy helps. Yeah. And that was really the source, was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that i didn't ask for like that this is never my goal

of like if i can only get so many followers yeah i was like uh let's just go i don't know i got a few minutes like to talk to my phone yeah yeah what is the what is the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience but also the stress and panic that you've experienced over the last six months how has your wife shown up for you and and how has it made you relate to your family differently well having kids has made me much more just empathetic as a person. And I'll tell you that it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it. My son looks a lot like me. And so I can, it's very much this kind of weird inner child, like dialogue, like I'm telling them things that I wish I could have, I would have been told at, you know, Hey man, it's okay to cry. Wow. Let it out. Let it out. I was never told that, but I went in, I'm not going to make that mistake. And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time. And I love i mean he's emotional in movies i love it you

know i was and so i to to see that where i go no no i've i've had that mistake of trying to put on this jefferson's got it all together mask yeah yeah just i got it all i got it all together it's it's you were just let it out man man. It's all good, it's all good. And he will, he'll just cry and say, I can't help it. And I'll say, you don't need to. He's good, man. You're good. He's very, both of my kids are extremely empathetic

with movies. I shared something before of, this was like not that long ago. And my son says, how your day was that? It was good, buddy. It was good. And he was like, what'd you do? I was like, well, it was just good.

It was a good day. It was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. It was a really horrible, it was a rough really horrible it was a rough day yeah yeah i was tired and later on that evening he came up to me again he said so why did you tell me your day was good when it wasn't wow i said what he said you didn't he said you said it was good but it didn't you didn't say it like it was good i was like how did you how did you know he's like you said it like it wasn't good you said it like it was bad they

feel everything yes and i was like how are you this young and like he had already sensed it like he told me he was good he wasn't wow and so that that kind of aspect of it when you say how's my wife showing up for me she's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore hey you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after. And we support both of our careers. She has a full-time career. It's her doing her thing in school and school law.

Now my legal career. And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything. Like you could call it Finstagram. Like nobody at my house, it doesn't affect anything like you could you could call it finstagram like nobody at my house it doesn't exist at my house it's just uh your dad mom kids right man right that's all that's all it is now she's very supportive of it and they know that every once in a while dad will make a video sure so because they want to make videos i'm curious with your upbringing

which sounds like you had a great upbringing but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life and with what you're experiencing now from you know building your career getting married at a young age in today's society and and now having this kind of following and presence what are three lessons if you could only teach three lessons to your kids right now what would those three lessons be that you wish you would know growing up or that you did know and you want them to know one would be always be authentic to who you are personally don't ever try to be anybody else and then who you are i can tell you that anytime i felt like i've needed to be somebody else it was the wrong call every time that i tried to be either more or less than just

exactly who i am you know i see it as just a floor in an elevator. It doesn't mean it's a better floor or not. It's just you need to be exactly where you're meant to be. Two is it's okay to feel like there are, it's okay to make mistakes. I grew up in a house where it was very, it was a lot of it i'll admit let's put on myself expectations of being the best at everything you can you can be it whatever it was i just enjoyed it and but the understanding that they don't have to put that pressure

on on themselves and number three is be kind to everybody. Kindness never changes. People value it now. They always have. We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes. Jefferson underscore Fisher on Instagram. Yeah. All over social media, you can find you.

I'll have everything linked up there. Oh, cool. Thanks. You've got a book you can find you. I'll have everything linked up there. Oh, cool. Thanks. You've got a book you're working on that we'll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out. But I want people to follow you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all the places. Hopefully we'll get you on YouTube soon. Yeah.

And you do a daily video, man. You're video, I mean, almost every day it seems like. It's like every day you're given wisdom wisdom you're given inspiration from daily lessons and law and your experience and life and right it's really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity from a place of service so i want to acknowledge you for the consistency and i also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you've experienced. Yeah, that was hard. And being vulnerable with your community and saying, hey, listen, guys, this is something I've never experienced.

And, you know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I've never experienced in my life. And I think it's powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us and stress us. So the fact that you're talking about it is probably allowing you to release some and relax some. I'm not saying it's going to solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it's allowing you to set yourself free. So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs. Yeah. Thank you very much. That's very well put. Yeah. So I acknowledge you for that.

It's interesting. There's a question I ask a lot of people. I've got two final questions for you, but before I ask those, there's a question I ask a lot of people on here who rise to success or audience growth quickly within a period of time of seeming overnight or months or a year, right? Where they get this big audience. Let me ask this question. I'm just curious because I want people to listen and hear the response. So if you could go back before you posted your first Instagram video a year and a half ago or whenever it was, or when you did it and you didn't have that many followers, And ask yourself on a scale of one to 10, how much inner peace and self-love you had for yourself.

10 being a very high level in a humble way, one being zero peace, all chaos and stress inside of you. Where were you on a scale of one to 10 before the rise of social media success? 10 being very peaceful internally and calm and confident and less stress and one being chaos. I would probably say I was a solid eight. There was a sense of, you sure you want to put yourself on the phone and in your car? You know, friends are going to see this, right? Right. Like, I'm not worried about strangers.

Sure. You're worried about your friends. Sure. You know, it's, it's easy. You could have all these followers who you really care about. Sometimes they wait, my, my friends saw this and they didn't. They don't like it. What do they think about me? Yeah.

It's much easier to get in your head about the people that are in your circle. Sure. Than the people that are outside. So you're a solid eight. Yeah. Before you started doing all this. Yeah. And then where would you say you currently are? Well, you know, for the last that are outside. So you're a solid eight. Yeah. Before you started doing all this. Yeah. And then where would you say you currently are,

you know, for the last few months consistently? Yeah, how I've been, I would say my nine right now. So you have more peace and more self-love. Really? Yeah. Well, it had it not been for what I went through at the beginning of this year,

the anxiety. Okay, interesting. Because it's made me, it's really made me hug myself in a way. Oh, interesting. And to, because I would get myself in a place of, I've always been pretty good at, okay, I'll do a video, and they'll either like it

or they won't, I guess, you know, you just go into the house and you live life. But it is a different aspect here of, I very much feel that I am cultivating a community of like-minded people that, I mean, when I posted that video of explaining about my anxiety, that was a very difficult video for me to even get out. It's a very difficult video for me to even get out it's a very difficult video for me to even watch but the like outpouring of love that came from that was just now it feels like i have a lot more it's weird i feel more connected to them in a way than than i did before well vulnerability breeds connection so yeah you were opening in a different way yeah where were

you on that scale you know in the beginning of the year when you were opening in a different way yeah where were you on that scale you know in the beginning of the year when you were experiencing that month of panic i was a two for me yeah yeah it was not it was not good from from when it first started sure to about the time right before the panic attack yeah i had fallen far this is you know and that's what i want people to to understand because a lot of people that want to have more success more followers more financial opportunities more things coming their way and i don't know anyone maybe one person was happier and more peaceful a year or two after the the big success came quickly right they were always a couple below what they were right before the press came,

the opportunities came. Because they hadn't learned yet how to manage and navigate it. It sounds like you're learning now how to navigate it, where you feel peaceful, confident, calm. But had I not, I'd be right there with them. And just trying to keep your head above water, right? And it always shocks me. I guess it shouldn't shock me anymore now,

but most of us are not prepared emotionally or psychologically for audience growth that quickly, for financial growth that quickly. Although we think we want certain things, but we may not be emotionally mentally physically ready right for the psychological pressure which is what it sounds like you had this pressure of this now i have this audience i have to make sure i deliver and don't don't give them the wrong information what if what if what if i let them down right yeah pressure which you can't really

get away from unless you stop posting unless you you just stop. Yeah. This was not something I sought out to do. It was like, I'm going to be an influencer, doggone it. No, it was like, I'm just going to make a video and let's see how it goes. Try to help a few people. Yeah, yeah. Let's try. What do I like talking about? And that was the thing was I did it because I like talking about it.

And if they like listening, I guess they'll listen. And then I asked people to follow me. At the end of it, I guess they'll listen. And then I asked people to follow me. At the end of the day, it turns out they did. And then it was just like a whole different ballgame where all of a sudden you look around and go, wait. Now, if I compare this to the size of my current city and my town that I'm in. This is like 50 times the size of that, yeah.

No, it's not even, yeah, not even close. Right, right. So it's, that becomes, and then i had a buddy of mine who was like oh you know you have x amount of followers that's like x amount of state like dallas cowboy stadium or something and i was like why would you tell me that it was the first thing that kind of sure sure but it's like you said absolutely you i was not emotionally prepared on on that level for that amount of eyes that amount of pressure and it wasn't until that my body literally shut down wow that said now we gotta we gotta wake up and make sure you're taking care of yourself because that that two you're at

was quickly starting to go into the negative exactly and that's where real bad stuff happens big time yeah if you don't address it so i acknowledge you man for for doing the work and for continually doing it because it's healing is a journey yeah and so i'm glad you're on that journey and feel free to reach out anytime you want some support yeah absolutely absolutely no it's meant so much that you've that you've been here but for sure that means a lot to me. For sure, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end

called the three truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you want to have. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make,

all these things, they have to go to the next place with you or they're no longer in this world. This conversation is gone. But it's your last day on earth and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world. And this is all we have to remember your wisdom by. What would be those three truths or lessons for you? Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney. He said, boy, you can't look back and play on straight row. That's always stuck with me. Meaning encouraging people to be in

the moment, in the present. If you look at what you're doing rather than looking for the next worry, your head's always going to be in the right place. Number two is you treat people how you want to be treated. It's that very basic golden rule that we've all heard, but sometimes it's the things we've heard the most that we really have soaked up the least. And too many times that we really have soaked up the least and too many times that uh i've you know we skip over it and number three would be that at any time that you can show person kindness because you you'll never regret it there's so many things that i feel like generation generationally in our existence that we just got wrong it wasn't

our fault we just weren't ready like we thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now or you look at how we handled punishment or entertainment i mean versus now but kindness is it's not affected from inflation or recession. Right. It doesn't depreciate. A little kindness can be invaluable. I love it. That was a great truce, man.

Final question, Jefferson. What's your definition of greatness? Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy. every level and every stage that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy. If someone wants to get a better price on something. So that was, I think that, first off, before I ask that question, that was the second, I think, mistake. Was there another big mistake people make in negotiations? The price, extreme price anchoring, using too much leverage to try to club someone. Was there another big one? What a lot of people do that's actually taught out there a lot, which is really bad bad is continue to ask for stuff after you made

a deal like asking for free stuff that's the worst right we made a good deal here's a win-win and now you're asking for more and more it's gonna make leave a sour taste that's every time and that's taught out there regularly it was you know there was a negotiation guru from the 80s, and I can't remember what he called it, but he gave the example, you go out and you get a custom-made suit. And you've made the deal for the suit,

and one of the guys measuring you, you say, so how many free times do I get with that? And he said, that's a great way to get free things, free little things, after they made the deal. Throw in a pocket square, throw in a couple of ties, throw in a couple of legs. Whatever it is. And what that does is make the person you did it to hate you, which they're going to resent it.

And if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that. Now, unfortunately, that's taught really extensively and it's done in business all the time. People call it scope creep, feature creep. It drives every single business person crazy because they don't know how to deal with it. Now, the black swan method, you might, you might say, if you were good at how questions, you might say, how can I give you free ties and continue to want to do business with you? You know, how can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin? Right.

You know, make what they ask for the obstacle to what they want. Either what you want as a path or if what they want is bad, it's the obstacle. Mm-hmm. You know, how can I serve the needs of your family if you're cutting into my profit margins? Mm-hmm. You know, there's got to be a way to wake somebody up to it because a lot of people have been taught that they don't know anybody like if I just stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s I thought it was okay because I'm getting free ties all over yeah like a

lot of people if they if they don't know any better how do you wake them up so that if they only knew they'd change now there's some people that are doing it on purpose if you do something like that to me because you didn't know any better let me see if i could wake you up if i can wake you up awesome we got a great long-term relationship if i can't wake you up i now know and i, okay, cool. This is the last deal I make with this guy. One and done, yeah. This is a one and done, I'm out. But I need to know if you just did it by accident,

I got job negotiation, recently brought somebody onto my company, thought we had the deal settled. And the new employee. New employee. Yeah. Because employment contracts like any other. And this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we've laid out the terms, we've written the offer letter, we sent the offer letter. Offer letter doesn't get signed.

Silence. Not a good sign. My director of operations, who knows no more oriented questions, she's this person in email, have you given up on signing the offer letter? Immediately comes back with a bunch of not ridiculous benefits. More asks. More asks, which are not on a plate. Some of them are like, wow, that was interesting. I never thought of that one. Now we can't do that. Not in a million years. This is stuff I aspire to. But not now. We can't do it now. But no, I like this one. It's just not in the package now. But my director of operations is like, I never had somebody come back. And I'm

like, okay, first thing I got to do is I got to find out, did this person just not know any better? So I engaged in the conversation and I said, all right, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things. First of all, I'm glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now. But secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut. So I'm guessing you just didn't know any better and you were uncomfortable bringing it up. Right. But if you come on board first, you got to understand we don't do this to people. And you got to learn.

We work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement instead of going for a stuff after the agreement right and this person was like hey you know i didn't know and my intention is to help build the company and i appreciate you let me know and i understand where you're coming from they were genuine about it they were very genuine i needed to know that yeah like was is it was she was this person advised to do this? Did they do it by accident? Or did they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior, which now we have a real problem because if this is a habit that you're born with, you are not going to last and you can't represent me because the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors.

I got to find out what ocean it is. And I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out. And I got a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits because these are great things. Sure. So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on. Right. Do that before the final agreement is what I'm hearing you say.

Yep. Yes. If someone's looking to buy. Nice paraphrase, by the way. You want to make sure I capture that. to buy, wanting to buy something, acquire something, whether they're buying a business, a car, a house, some potential expensive item, a jewelry, something of more value than $1,000. And they might be able to negotiate a lower price.

You mentioned the extreme price anchoring, how that is a mistake, right? There's a house for a million dollars, I'll give you 200 grand for it, right? But you want to get a better deal. Maybe it's a Rolex, maybe it's a car, maybe it's a house, maybe you want to acquire a business, whatever it is, something of higher value, a ring, an engagement ring, you're going to marry someone. Right, right, right. Let them make their profit off somebody else. Yeah. What should be the lower percentage on a higher item of value?

What should the initial offer be? You want to get a better deal. So you don't want to pay a million dollars for a home, but you really want the home. You don't want to pay $3,000 for the diamond ring, the engagement ring, but you really want that ring. Right. How low of a percentage should you go to anchor in order for you to feel like, oh, I got a great deal, and I got the thing I wanted, and they didn't get screwed over? You know what I mean?

Well, it depends upon the context. I mean, like 30% is a good rule of thumb. To start at. Well, for a target. Like, if you and very very context-driven sure like for example I'm in Macy's one time and pick out this jacket girl and what really likes it she searches this thing extensively she finds like a threat out of place mmm and she was like watch me get 10% off on this check. And I'm like, I can get 30% by being nice. No way.

Yeah. Tell me more. Well, like in every transaction, you know, I look at it as there's an aggravation tax. Now, the person that you're dealing with has already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them. So there's an aggravation penalty, there's an annoyance tax, there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price. Now, if you're not aggravating, you don't need to pay the aggravation tax.

Interesting. Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax. You benefit from them actually paying that tax. Yeah, let somebody else pay that aggravation tax. And you benefit from them actually paying that tax. Yeah, let somebody else pay it. If I'm not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravating tax? So this young lady, she'd gotten 10% off on a regular basis. I will be demanding 10% of the annoyance tax when there's another 20% to be gained. Interesting.

So many people don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table. Really? Like massive amounts of money. On any given, the difference between 10% off and 30% off. Right. They got a way to give you a better deal if they feel like it. So how do you get them to feel like it? Well, yeah, great.

There you go. Exactly. Again, the approach, very similar to the hotel thing. You know, there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in a black swan method. We call it the accusations audit. The accusations audit. Accusations audit. Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me if I'm going to do this. You say this?

You say it to yourself. Okay, not to them. Because I need to come up with a list. So, again, it's like, look, you get annoying people come through here all day long, every day, want something for nothing. I'm going to look like another one of these annoying jerks. It's really demanding and rub you the wrong way. Don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are. You are knocking yourself out at a tough sales job.

You're trying to feed your family. People are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth because how do they see it? You know, it's not about you. And it's not about, it's really not sympathy. You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy. You know, I feel your pain. Right. Like I've been there too. You know, like I'm a regular guy like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, don't give me that regular guy stuff. So, but you look at people like me,

who want something for nothing, who come walking in all the time. You know, you look at us as wanting discounts and you know, and you're trying to feed your family. Now suddenly this person is like, oh wow. They get it. This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here. Now they're starting to open up.

And then, you know, you talked before about being playful. Being playful about this can be a really big deal. I've gotten so many things for free for being playful, or upgrades or discounts just by, let me just say a friendly joke or just something funny. Right. You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing, you know? Yeah. You've just got, you don't got to pay the aggravation funny. Right. You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing, you know?

Yeah. You've just got, you don't got to pay the aggravation tax. Yeah. And then plus, see, Sean says you're 31% smart and a positive frame of mind. Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you now got them thinking about options. What can they do?

You know, how can they help you? What can they get away with? How can they shortcut the TSA do? How can they help you? What can they get away with? How can they shortcut the TSA line? How can they, what's the code for the employee discount? Like, you know, in the same place where I'm trying to get this 30% or so off, and I'm joking around with this guy. Sure. You know, and one of the things, get him to see he's a human being.

I'm like, well, I'm Chris. Is there a Chris discount? What kind of Chris discount is there? And they laugh at that. And so, and I'm still not getting enough of a discount, and finally I go like, look, give me the employee discount. I've been joking around, I smile when I say this. This guy goes like, if I give you the employee discount,

I gotta pay for this thing myself. And I go, I'll pay you back. And I'm laughing and he laughs. And so he looks at the machine and I says, wait right here. And he walks around and I see him and I walked up to a person and I perceived to be the manager and he's whispering to the manager's ear.

And I see this manager standing there going like, no. No, really? No. And he comes walking back and another employee intercepts him, whispers in his ear, and I see his eyes light up and he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me and we get the 30% off. Wow. But I was joking with him. I was showing I knew what it looked like from his perspective.

I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing. Let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying tax. You go in there and you brighten somebody else's day up. You leave the world a better place. You get some practice in. Because you want that confidence for the big negotiation. Right. And all these things work for you. And you end up feeling better

about the day yourself. Yes. You get a fun interaction. Yeah. And you got a discount. Exactly. What are the social cues or psychological behaviors,

body language, responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth? Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the lie detector. You just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Lewis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way.

Like typically the lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation. And as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the US Secret Service, we'll make you a recruit. Okay, give it to me. And so we're discussing something let's say you're applying the US Secret Service will make you a good guy give it to me and so we're asking you all these questions about your education your background drugs whatever it is and let's say we get to I say to you Louis did you ever steal anything and so now I look at are there any shifts or any changes do you

change the direction well people are usually not that obvious you know they're but you can see you can see something you can feel it it's also feeling people i think that gets dismissed quite a bit that it's not just see here you know it's like it's also you can feel another human energy yeah you can you and it's intuitive and. And we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Let's say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, Louis, did you,

have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else. But here he said, absolutely not. Interesting. Why is it a bit more emphatic he cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth he doesn't want that to be but i will notice that it's different that you did something different even if you know it could be a very subtle thing or you might not give me anything there's some people and i've had those people where it's just like poker face all the way through some people but and I've had those people where it's just like. Poker face all the way through. Some people, but they'll, I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case.

And they're guarding the truth really hard, and you have to try to figure out what that is. Or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God knows I would never do such a thing. Or my mom, or my grave. Those are usually red flags, unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. So if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language. Or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit. But if it's not and then you start doing that then again that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like everybody does this. Everybody does that. Now are these things I'm talking about indicators? They are. But you may do them and I may not. I may do something else.

What do you do when you lie? What do you do when you lie? What do I do when I lie? We all lie at something, right? We do. I do. Small or big. My husband's like, did you have a donut this morning? No, I didn't have a donut.

What do you lie about the most? Professional or personal? And what in each category? Maybe like if I'm mad. I'm not mad. I have a pretty bad temper, so it's like, oh, no, I'm fine. Because sometimes I'll know I'm like, you know, I have a temper, and sometimes I know I'm being irrational,

and I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm okay. I'll leave it because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think what do I lie about. I'll leave it because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think what do I lie about. Maybe work if it's a project I don't want to do. But that's what you have agents and managers for because they do it for you.

Sure. They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie. But I try to keep it like, usually for me it's like, because I'm like a, you know, I like donuts and I like cookies i like things so my husband's like a health fanatic so he's like how'd you eat today you know i was like oh this was okay i was i was pretty solid you know oh okay so he'll know what i'm trying to say is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time? No, I don't. I've never, I've not come across that, but I think here's the thing. It's okay to lie because have you ever been very, very, very honest maybe with a person and then felt afterward, you know, I don't, you feel a bit exposed and you feel

like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person. Afterward, you kind of have that remorse. Because we feel like it's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so I may, and it may not be a lie. So by omission, so in a meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking about something, I don't like it or I don't like the direction it's going. I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, thank you. Let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to say, no way, I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you. Let me think about that. But I

know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have. To protect your time, your space, your energy. Yes, and that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly. No is mean.

No is hurtful. So I can say, thank you so much. I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that. Find alternative ways to let people down. Why is that? To preserve the relationship.

Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally. It stings. Right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say, you can reject people in a thoughtful way in a professional way and it just it depends like do you care about the relationship and if you do your no your hard no can hurt people's feelings people become sensitive

because you're rejecting them and so i'm going to think of a different way to say no that's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, Louis, you're a liar.

Or Louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, Louis, I know you're not being truthful with me. Louis, you're holding something back from me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem. When we don't have that ability to think about how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship, that's important to you, but you want to say no to this,

you want to think of a great way to say no. So we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity, going back to identity. Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the truth? Oh my God, you just reminded me of this case. You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything you said was pretty true or almost 100% true. This was, I've never, I had, it was such a simple case and it was not even for a lot of

money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs and he was taking, stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card. He'd come from behind, take money. Very simple. On the ATM. Like put him up with like a gun or something? No, no, no, no, no. Just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine. So when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well. And then you could go, there's all these different scams. So, but when you go to the ATM, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him, his face, he's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy.

All right, you know, I've got it. All I got to do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat. So I start speaking to him. I don't take out my evidence, right? Because I'm saving that. Because that's my- She knew this was a slam dunk.

This is a slam dunk. I was like, and he didn't even steal a lot. $500. It was something. Small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And sir, you took the money. No, no, miss.

I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this. So I'm doing this with him for like 15 minutes. And this was a mistake on my part. We have evidence. We have proof. We have video footage of you at the scene. I'm giving him everything.

No, never me, never me. And I pull out, I think I'm being slick, and I pull out my photo of him. Boom, right on the table. Who's that, sir? Right, and I'm sitting there, I'm all smug. I'm like, I got this guy. And he takes it, and he looks at it, and he's like, looks like me. Yeah, he looks like me, he's like, looks like me. Yeah, he looks like me.

He's not me. I was like, what? That's you. He's like, looks like me. That's not me. Same hat. New York Knicks hat. The guy showed up with a new hat.

You're wearing the hat right now. Yeah, no. And it was a crazy interview. And I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those. Why?

Less guilt. Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically. Yes. They might have hurt them financially. Yes. I'm at home. I'm sitting behind my computer. I'm in hurt them financially. Yes. I'm at home. I'm sitting behind my computer.

I'm in my fuzzy slippers. Yeah. Or even if I'm doing it at the ATM, I'm not stealing from you. I'm stealing from the bank. Yeah. But it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's that level of guilt.

But when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution, zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get. But yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget him until I started laughing. Was it him or was it not him? It was him. We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get, it's always helpful to have a confession

because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence. You've got this. The person said it. But he never agreed to it. No, no, no. He said, it looks like me, but it's not me. No, same New York Snick hat. Yeah, I don't know. I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just, nothing. And you could see his face. Looks like me. I got nothing from him. Really? Yeah. So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact him. Who was him? I mean i mean we had evidence we had prints and all that stuff but yeah no he he you know to the end no not me could you tell like i

couldn't tell you couldn't tell he was lying or not i couldn't tell no he was so believable um but i knew going in that he was my guy right so that's why i was like i know it's him but it was just like stoic and there's a moment I'm like, is it not him? Right? They're so good. You're like, am I seeing this right? Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him.

It's him. It's him. No, no, this is you. So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will. Some people. And I think this is, look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes.

He was used to it. He knew how to get out of it. also somebody who committed a lot of crimes and he was used to it he's used to it so certain people who are who lie a lot usually become better at it or they or they don't feel bad it becomes become better at masking it you obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you and so all your tells were shown you couldn't conceal your heart is bumping like your chest is tight like your throat is clenching you're like it bothered you yeah which is a healthy thing it's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you we tend to see in people who are who have sociopathic tendencies or anti-social tendencies those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite

calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care. What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of maybe or that people believed you and more than just, oh, I'm having a good day. Lie. You know what I did? I could probably confess to this. This was so long ago.

I went and got, it was back in the day, I got a money order from. Western Union. The post office. Post office. And, you know, I was like young. I was a kid. I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college.

And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving money order for like 3.99 i pay i get it and then as i'm leaving i see 4.99 and i'm like oh 100 bucks 100 bucks and i took it and to this day i remember it it bothered me really yeah it bothered me did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say hey you guys gave me no i took the money yeah i money. But it bothers you that you lied about it? Statute of limitations. I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was, I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story. We went. Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something,

like money when you were younger? You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview? I'll tell you that. When I applied for the job, when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family, they weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. They didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it. And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork. To go to college?

Yeah. He didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way. And so when I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid. And so I went back to the school later on and I said,

I'm not living at home, I'm alone, can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out, I, yup, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph. I was like, I told them this is what happened. I said, I lied to get financial aid because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that. I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree with my decision to go to this school to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life.

I was just like, I was like, I'm going to college. And I lied. But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up. And I said, look, I lied about this. I did this. Why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school. So I was okay. I got the job. Wow. How many things did you tell, did you confess to before you took the polygraph? That was my biggest thing.

Yeah. That was my thing. Drugs, like, I never had. Despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it, of that around me. And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably would have been the opposite. If nobody did it, I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm going to try this.

I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans. I'm sure it's fine, yeah. I paid back all my loans.

When you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview in any situation, what's the best way to build command, authority, and credibility? Yeah. So you can do very simple things like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink?

What can I bring you? Right? So I'm in this subtle way, I'm telling you to go to the bathroom and you're going to go. Because of the way I said, why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go before we get started. Right? You just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink?

Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to drink. We're going to be here for a little bit. have something to drink oh no i'm good no have something to drink so now we're gonna be here for a little bit have something so now i'm i'm planting these little seeds telling you i'm in control i'm not telling you but i'm doing it subtly have a seat there you know you can show me where to sit or on the flip side you could also practice something called autonomy where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics here. Where would you like to sit?

Yeah. Where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later. You're going to try to push me on something later. I gave you something now. The law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

Exactly. But also autonomy, though, it's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control. Because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control. I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time.

I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel

exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.