The School of Greatness - 312 How to Move Forward Without a Plan with Chris Guillebeau

Episode Date: April 6, 2016

"It's much harder in life to be the establishment than it is to be the underdog." - Chris Guillebeau If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/312

Episode number 312 with New York Times best-selling author Chris Gillibeau. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Jimmy Dean said, I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to

always reach my destination. Isn't it funny sometimes how things happen in our lives, in our businesses, in our relationships, where we can't change the way things happen, the direction of things. But we can always adjust the way we look at it. We can always adjust our attitudes around it to reshape the direction in order to reach our destination.

I'm very excited to be on with you guys in this episode, and thank you guys for being here. We've got my good friend, Chris Guillebeau. And for those that don't know who Chris is, he is a New York Times bestselling author and a modern-day explorer. He's traveled to every country in the world, and every summer in Portland, he hosts the World Domination Summit, which I had the pleasure of speaking at last year. It was about 3,000 people,

and it was an incredible experience. He's also the founder of Pioneer Nation, Unconventional Guides, the Travel Hacking Cartel, and numerous other creative projects. And we go deep in this episode. I got a text message after doing this interview with Chris saying, thanks for facilitating this interview with me because there are some things that I hadn't ever shared that I got to share with you in this interview. And there were some times in this interview where things get really raw and real. And Chris opens up in a way, again, that he's never opened up. And I hope you guys really get a lot out of this and you take a lot out of it. Some of the things we cover is how to speak and connect with a broad, diverse audience.

If you're trying to figure out what your passion is, you got to make sure you do this one thing when you're trying to figure it out. Also, why winning all the time isn't necessarily a good thing. When it's a good idea to give something up and to not continue to force something. And how to live in the present moment when you are grieving. Again, we went pretty raw and intimate in this conversation. And we had one direction we were going, but the winds changed our sails, and we ended up going in a different direction. So I hope you guys get a lot out of this episode.

Also, a couple of side notes. Chris inspired me. You know, he has created this event called the World Demolition Summit. He has inspired me when I went to it last year and I spoke at it. I was moved by the community, by the inspiration, by the magic that was created as well. We are releasing the first time,

a full transcript of this interview. So if you want to check it out and download the transcript as well and read along when you're, while you're listening or just download it later, go ahead and check that out and let me know what you guys think of that. Download the transcript as well and read along while you're listening or just download it later. Go ahead and check that out and let me know what you guys think of that. Leave a comment at the end of lewishouse.com slash 312 and let me know if you like having a transcript, if it's helpful for you, if you would like me to continue producing transcripts of all these interviews moving forward. Based on your comments, we'll see if enough people want this and we'll continue to do it or not.

This is just a little test run right now. Again, I'm very pumped and excited to introduce to you the one, the only, Chris Guillebeau. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Chris Guillebeau. What's up, man? Good to see you. How you doing?

Doing great. Thanks for being here. You've got a new book out called Born For This, and it's all about how to find the work you were meant to do. Make sure you guys pick this up today ASAP. Get a copy. It's going to be a game changer for you. You've also written a couple other books, New York Times bestseller of The Happiness of Pursuit, Finding the Quest That Will Bring Pur purpose to your life. So if you guys don't have this one, just get both at the same time. It's good to see you, man. It's good to see you too. It's good that you came here for LA.

I'm excited for the book. I'm excited for everything that's going on in your life. And for those that don't know who Chris is, you have been a big-time travel blogging, travel hacking guy for many years, like 10 years or something. Eight years or so. Eight years you've been writing about it. You've built this community of mostly a lot of travel hackers, then entrepreneurs,

then just people that want to have a great life essentially, right? Yeah. I've never had a demographic. I had like a psychographic of people interested in fun stuff. Yeah. And you started a conference called World Domination Summit. Yep. Where you were a keynote called World Domination Summit. Yep. Where you were a keynote speaker.

Yes. It's five years old now? Yeah, going into six. Six years. And I attended this. I've been to a lot of events, and this is one of the best I've ever been to. It's just so inspiring. It gets people motivated, and the speakers are so talented, and the information, and

the experiences. So you really do it right. And I'm essentially modeling an event around kind of what you've done. So thanks for leading the way. That's awesome. And tell me about that experience of why you decided to start an event and how it's changed your life or your business or your community because of having one, the importance of that.

Yeah, well, it's totally changed my life. And it was a very organic thing. It wasn't like I started with a business strategy of, okay, I'm going to incorporate this event into my sales goal or something like that. I wrote a book called The Art of Nonconformity when I was first starting. And I went on the road to all 50 states and met readers everywhere. I did my own little book tour. And in some places, there'd be like 50 people. In other places, there'd be five, you know, and that was cool. And I just knew right from the beginning that there was something special about my community or the community.

It's not just mine, you know. They're just awesome people. And I wanted to do anything I could to connect them. Yeah. And I wanted to, like, it's awesome to see great people in L.A. or Portland or wherever, but there's people, like, all over the world. And can't we bring them together? So the initial idea was let's do an in-person gathering and let's not make it all about entrepreneurship, even though there's a lot of entrepreneurs there and not all about travel, even though there's a lot of active travelers or arts or education or whatever. Let's

just bring together like-minded people who share these values. And the values we ended up with were community, adventure, and service. So that's what we decided to build it around. And it was very organic. You know, didn't know what we were doing, didn't know anything about running events. And maybe that was for the better in the long run. You know, the first year was kind of hard in terms of logistics and just getting overcharged for things and not knowing how to do production and all that stuff. But I think if you get some of the fundamentals right, if you have the right people,

then you can kind of figure out all that stuff later. So I just grew from there. And how many people have attended over the last five years? More than 10,000. 10,000? More than 10,000 have been part of the main event. And then now we're going to some secondary events as well so that we can serve more people. That's amazing, man.

And how has it changed your life, your business? And also, how has it changed your life and business? But also, what do you say to someone who doesn't have a specific niche? Because you're speaking to a broad range. It's kind of like the school of greatness. It's like, well, who's my audience? It's a little bit of everyone. Right, right.

These demographics. Yeah, well, I think that's a strength. I mean, I think that's a strength, not a weakness. And in my case, like when I started the blog and wrote the book and started all this stuff, I had done a lot of stuff beforehand and sometimes kind of given up on it or didn't see it through. And I knew I wanted this to be special. And so I had to pick something that was deliberately broad. Yeah.

Like I had to, because I'm like, I need to do a lot of different things, you know, to be satisfied or to keep going. Right. So that's why it was like non-conformity. For your own fulfillment. For my own fulfillment and my own motivation. To be bored. Yeah.

And also to serve the community, like to be able to truly serve them. But as for how it's changed and impacted me, I mean, everything I've done since then, kind of, I can trace it back to that, to that, that movement and those initial conversations and all the books that I've written, a lot of the people, stories are in them or, you know, have been referred to different people or something. So, yeah, I mean, everything I do is kind of oriented around that. Right. And so why did you decide to, uh, talk about this book? Why Born for This? How to find the work you're meant to do? So I try to pay attention to conversations and, you know, themes. And I was talking to a lot of different people who talked about finding their dream job

or creating their dream job. And they use kind of similar language. They talked about winning the career lottery. Like, I feel like I won the lottery and like, I would do, I would do my work for free, you know, but I don't have to, you know, which is great. Right I get paid, right? You know, and maybe, I don't know if you would consider yourself in that department, but I feel very fortunate, you know, I'm like, this is a great life and great work that I can do. And I don't want to do less work. I'm actually very happy doing what I do. So what, what have those people done? You know, how have those people made choices along the way when they come to a path and you could do this or you could do this? Like, how do they get closer to that thing they were born to do you know are there specific actions

that we can take is it all luck and good fortune well there's probably luck there's probably some privilege all these things but there's also choices so how can how can the reader do that i mean that's the whole goal like i want to i'm not a journalist i'm not just trying to describe a phenomenon i'm hoping to help the reader with something they can apply to their life and work right away. I get this question a lot. People say, well, I don't know. How do I find out what I'm passionate about? They say, how do I find my passion?

Yeah. What do you say? Essentially, I say, what would you do that – even if you didn't get paid, you'd do it. Sure. I say, what would you do that keeps you up at night? You know, what's something that keeps you up at night you can't stop thinking about? I say, what brings you the most joy when you do something? And then I, you know, what's the first thing you want to do when you wake up in the morning?

Sure. I think when people, if people can associate their biggest joy around something, whether it's like, whenever I go surfing, I just get this natural high, like that. I just, I can't find it anywhere else. I think if you can do things that bring you the most joy, the maximum amount of time you should stay in that field, in my opinion. Yeah. So I agree. And I've said that for years too, or something similar. Maybe what I've kind of learned though, through this process is not everyone knows what that thing is, right? You know, it actually takes a certain amount of self-actualization to be able to say, here's what brings me joy.

Here's the thing that keeps me up at night. Here's the thing that when I get up in the morning, I want to do. So for everybody else, they kind of feel like, maybe I'm a loser. You know, like, I don't know what that is. You know, it took me a long time to figure out what that thing was for me.

I was getting close to age 30 and I had done a lot of different things. I'd lived in West Africa for four years. I had started this quest of going to every country in the world. I'd been an entrepreneur. I loved all those things, but I don't think I really had that intersection of, okay, here's what really brings me joy. Really? You know, here's what I'm actually good at that I want to kind of immerse myself in. You didn't have that awareness at the time?

Well, I mean, I'm not saying I was fundamentally unhappy. Right, right. But I don't think I necessarily knew what my quote-unquote passion was. So I think it's Cal Newport who talks about don't follow your passion, follow your skill. You know, kind of figure out what you're good at. And you do that through experimentation. Sure. You don't know that you love surfing and it brings you that natural high until you do it, right? Yeah, exactly. And it brings you that natural high until you try it until you do it. Right.

Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's really important if people are in that, that place of trying to find greatness, uh, trying to find the work they were born to do. It's important to try a lot of different things. Sure. Because otherwise you're not going to necessarily know, like, cause we're not taught as kids necessarily to hear, here are the things that bring you joy. Here are the things that you're good at.

And here, you know, here's how you can create a viable career from them. Like these are skills that are not taught in any kind of education. Yeah. So how do you know, you know, at the last chapter you talk about how winners essentially give up, right? Is that the title? Yeah. Winners give up all the time. If at first you don't succeed, give up. So how do you, what if you win all the time? Everything you do, you really love and you enjoy. How do you know what to pick and when to kind of like give it up and be like, okay, well, I should maybe just focus on this one, two or three things as opposed to everything. Yeah. There's a lot there that we could unpack. I mean, let's start with the beginning. If you win all the time, maybe your goals are too small.

Interesting. I mean, right? Like if you're never disappointed, maybe you haven't wished for enough. Or you're playing against in the wrong game. Right. You're right. You're playing in a small time as opposed to big time or something. Yeah. Right. You know?

So that's the first thing about that. As for, you know, when to give up, when to keep going, I think there are a couple of fundamental questions that you can ask. And if you're in that place of like, I've been doing this for a while, it's not really working out. Should I do something else? Well, you ask yourself, do I still enjoy it? Is that love still there? And do I think it's working? Do I think it's on the trajectory to achieve success? But then if your answers are no to both of those, I don't enjoy it anymore, I don't think it's going to work, then you give up. If your answers are yes, I still, you know, enjoy it and I think it's going to work, then you keep going. It only gets complicated when one answer is yes and one answer is no, right?

Yeah. Like, I like this thing, but maybe it's not, you know, what I was born to do. Yeah. Or this thing is working, but I'm getting kind of tired of it. And so that's when you kind of have to make some more more difficult decisions but i'm a big fan of encouraging people to give up on stuff because i feel that this runs counter to the classical traditional never advice never give up man like never give up and you know most successful people most people who are super successful they did not follow a linear path they made lots of changes in their life they even had multiple careers usually or multiple businesses or whatever the field is and so if you had gone to that person you know in their first iteration of something when they were struggling and said all you have to do is keep

going right just be persistent because never give up that's the entrepreneurial american manifest destiny pioneering spirit advice that would have been terrible advice for them, right? Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of people do that and they stay in something and they keep investing more and more money, taking money out, and they're in a million dollars in debt and they have no product to sell. And they look to the past. They look to what they have spent.

They look to their sunk costs. It's like the person who's in the supermarket. Well, I mean, all of us have done this. You go to the grocery store and there's this long ass line. You're like waiting like 20 minutes and then a new line opens up next. And you're like, should I go over there or should I stay? And you want to stay because like I've waited so long. It doesn't matter.

You've invested so much. It doesn't matter how much you've invested. If the new lane is open, that's where you should go. Just cut your losses. Right. Yeah. Interesting. And you did that.

I mean, I wrote about that in the book. Yeah. You know, your story of pursuing professional athletics. Yeah. A lot of people could have gone down that road and ended up very differently. Exactly. A lot of people do. Right.

I mean, most people who pursue professional athletics and get to a certain very high level like you did, but then have to change or they get injured or whatever, they actually don't have great lives, as you probably know. No. to change or they get injured or whatever, they actually don't have great lives, as you probably know. No. I mean, a lot of the pro athletes become very depressed or even somehow commit suicide because their identity is gone. Everything they put in their whole life to their pursuit, what they were born to do, now they don't have something they're born to do, which is another topic.

How do you, when your thing you were born to do is over and you, you know, for whatever reason you can't do it, how do you transition into the next thing? Because you've got a long life left. Right. How do you transition? So you're not miserable. Sure. Well, you managed to do it and you've done it very well.

You know, the book is called born for this, but I don't necessarily think everyone has one single thing that they should do. I mean, there is more than one path. I feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves. It's just like the follow your passion thing. If we put so much pressure on ourselves to know what this thing is, and I must find my destiny, I must find my calling, my mission. I've probably been guilty of using these words too. But the reality is there is more than one path that we can go down. I think what's important is, like in the book, I use this model of joy, money, and flow. And joy is like the things you love to do.

Money is the viable answer for that, how it can be sustainable. Because I'm not talking about a hobby. I'm talking about something that pays the bills and allows you to support your family or whatever. And then flow is that thing of skill, right? Of actually losing yourself in your work, of being excited to get up in the morning and all that. So I think the whole goal is to get closer and closer to that intersection and you can do that in different ways. Yeah. The way I talk about it is FIP, fun, impact, profit. Yeah. That's great. So is it a lot of fun for you? Is it impactful for you and for the people you're working with

in it? And is it profitable for you? Right. Okay, great. If you can do that, I think you're probably born for that. Right. And so, yeah, it's good. And so what we could say is people settle all the time. And in different seasons in life, maybe you don't actually have all three. You don't have the FIP or the joy money flow. So that's okay.

You know, there's been plenty of people out there do kind of make trade-offs and compromises. Maybe they don't actually love their job, but provides for something else it's okay but i would say if you're you're listening to this if you're watching this you're part of the school of greatness like you want to be great yeah like what is the goal the goal actually is to get closer to that convergence yeah i mean the goal is to find that and we're always on a journey yeah uh toward it but that's what we that's what we want yeah and there's always an off season every year there's always some kind of off season where just like in sports you can't just play in the playoffs all year round for your whole life you'll kill yourself if you're playing like in a championship game every day so you've got to have

these off seasons these times to reflect and see is it still fun for me am i still in the flow is it still something that helps me grow is it impactful is it still fun for me? Am I still in the flow? Is it still something that helps me grow? Is it impactful? Is it profitable? You know, all these things. I think you need to constantly be aware and ask yourself the questions. That's cool. I'm curious, who's the most influential person for you growing up? My dad was definitely the most influential. What was the biggest lesson that you learned from him? My dad kind of taught through example. you know, and my, my dad, I, you know, I was a kid. I thought that my dad knew everything. I could always go to him with a question about science or a question about, you know, sports or whatever, but he mostly taught

through example. I just remember him being very generous and, you know, I liked reading books as a kid. So I've often told the story of like, when I was a kid, we would go to the bookstore and I could just pick out books and he would buy them. And we were middle class family. My mom and dad were divorced. So he's not making a ton of money or whatever, but the books are something he would always invest in. So I kind of remember him just encouraging learning and encouraging me to kind of experiment and find my way. What's the most memorable moment from 10 to 17 for you? The moment that brought you the most joy, the most memorable in your mind right now.

Yeah, 10 to 17 was not actually a good time in my life. Okay. Yeah. Well, is there a memorable moment that brought you joy? Yeah, 10 to 17 were kind of some hard years, actually. You know, like I said, parents were split up and I was going back and forth between different families. I was a juvenile delinquent for a little while. Really? Yeah. How long were you in for? How long was I in for? I was in for maybe a couple of weeks or so, but I also had lots of emotional struggles as well.

I was in some treatment centers from, you know, age 11, 12, age 13, age 14, kind of off and on. And then I was able to kind of get out and find my way. But when I think of 10 to 17, I actually don't really think of good years. Maybe towards the end, I start thinking about, like I didn't go to high school. I went to one year of high school and I dropped out. But then I did go to college. Like I found this way to kind of sneak into college. One year to high school and dropped out? Yeah, that's correct. Wow. So how'd you get to college? Well, I went to community college and they didn't check very carefully. Wow. Interesting. And after

I had been for like a quarter or two, I kind of realized, but I'm like, well, he's doing okay. You know, like I actually liked learning. Like I said, when I was a kid, I loved learning, but I didn't do well with structure and authority. So by the time I was in college, you can kind of pick and choose a little bit, your schedule and your classes and some things you have to do, but other things you can choose. So I liked that. Interesting. So then I was drawn to the independence and the autonomy of kind of finding my way. So I got a little bit better, but it took some time. Okay.

So still don't know the most memorable moment uh or the most joyful moment what was the lowest moment of those seven years since there was a lot of them yeah i mean honestly lewis i can think of a couple of times in in that period when i didn't have any hope and i felt like i had nothing to live for. And, I mean, it's interesting to look back now because, you know, I obviously like so much has happened. And I've had this amazing life. And I feel very fortunate to do everything that I can do. And I've had all these great experiences. But, yeah, as a kid, I really kind of struggled.

Yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, when I was in third and fourth grade and when I'd get sent to the principal's office, I remember not having any friends and being in the bottom of my class and just being like a little slower than everyone and getting bullied a lot, even though I was about this tall then. I would just go to the principal's office and be like, you know, I don't feel like living anymore. There's no reason for me to be alive. What's the point?

Wow. Because I just didn't feel accepted. I didn't feel like I was smart. I didn't feel like I was growing. So I can definitely relate to that. I mean, I think probably a lot of young kids probably go through something like that at some point, I would think. Who knows how deep it is or how painful it is. But I feel your pain, man.

What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned through those years of all those moments? lesson you learned through those years of all those moments somehow and i don't know how but somehow i learned to transform this rejection which i think was kind of a theme like feeling rejected not necessarily not necessarily bullied but kind of like rejected and unloved um into confidence i don't quite know how i did that but but I kind of used it. It was like, all these things are against me, or at least I perceive them to be against me, right? I have this perception that the world is against me. And somehow I was able to say, okay, I'm going to fight back. And I don't know where that moment was, but I was able to like, I'll show them, you know? And I think being rejected or being told it won't work,

uh, is a very motivating force or it can be because you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to go out and prove that person wrong. That's my whole life, you know? Right. I'm going to be, and being an underdog is a great, great thing to be. You know, I think it's much, much harder in life to be the establishment than it is to be the underdog because the underdog is hungry and the underdog has something to prove and the underdog is motivated. So I guess at a certain point, I became motivated. Do you know how old you were or was that like the end of high school or I guess the end of your teen years? Yeah. Motivation came around like age 15, age 16. And then I had some low moments after that, but there was like a corner I turned for sure. Right. Okay. So, wow.

Yeah. That's cool. So I asked you a question beforehand and I said, what's a question no one's ever asked that you would like to answer? What was your response? Well, we were talking about some stuff and I said, nobody's actually ever asked me about anxiety or depression. And we've touched on it a little bit here, but mostly in childhood. And it's something that I'm kind of dealing with now is got this business thing going on. I've got this new book out. Very excited about the book. Like, totally believe in it.

You know, the conference has been getting bigger and better every year. Right? All these good things. I'm going out on the road to meet readers, and I really, really like that. You know, first book I did, 63 cities. Wow. And this tour, I'm doing 30. Amazing. I talked to somebody the other day, and he said, you're only doing 30 cities.

It's like, that's pretty funny. Yeah. So all that's great. But I do feel like kind of experiencing this maybe sustained period of anxiety or sadness. And I've called it sadness for a while. And I think, you know, maybe at a certain point, like you have to call a spade a spade and maybe it's actually depression. And so depression, of course, is a clinical term. Like no one can diagnose, you know, I can't diagnose myself with

that. But maybe this is something that I actually need to kind of pay attention to instead of running from. I don't feel like I've been running from it. I think maybe I've just been kind of putting it in a corner. You know, I've been like, well, I've got my stuff and I'm keeping busy. And I like to say busy, but maybe I'm staying busy in some ways so that I don't have to deal with other stuff. And I haven't had the tools, the skills to know how to do that. Now, can you explain what that feels like, this anxiety or sadness or depression, what that feels like on a daily, when you wake up on a day or at night, what does that look like? So I understand.

Right, right. So, you know, my understanding is it's different for different people. For me, it just kind of feels flat. It just kind of feels like, you know, I'm going through my day and I'm doing stuff and I do have, you know, some moments of joy and, and like, I really do like getting things done and like, I feel like motivated through productivity, but maybe I'm just feeling like a disconnect between my short-term actions and how that connects to a long-term vision. And I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm being

ungrateful and that bothers me because I want to live a life of gratitude. And just like you, like gratitude has always been one of my values, at least one of my named values. But I feel like maybe, you know, at a certain point, just as before we talked about something positive, like I had this rejection, I turned it into like confidence. Somehow maybe I've turned gratitude into like, I don't know, something that I'm just saying and not really living. And so I'm kind of going back to like, what does it mean, you know, to live with gratitude? And I don't know, there's probably more to it, but that's the first thing I think of. What's your vision right now? Long-term vision. My vision is to serve this great community, to do a good job of helping people with their life and work,

especially alternative, unconventional work. And somehow I feel like there's some actualization that I have to come to myself. Like I kind of paused there because a mutual friend of ours, Lisa Rankin, has been talking with me about doing inner work. And I know this is something that you know a lot about, but for me it's quite new. Sure. And so as part of this process, I've actually been seeing a therapist as well. And like I go into this session and like I don't have the vocabulary.

You know? She's asking me like questions about how does this make you feel? And I'm like, well, I don't know. What do you mean? How does it make me feel? You know? And it's like how does it feel in your body? Like how does it feel in my body?

I don't know. You know? Right. Like I feel like I feels so far behind you know it's like she probably says you're disconnected or yeah disconnected to your body and your emotions or yeah so i'm trying to figure out like you know one how to explain this but first how do i how do i figure it out for myself and what does it mean to do inner work and and um you know i want to be kind to others but how can i also you know be kind to myself and that will probably help everything all around.

When does sadness or anxiety start happening? Why do you think it happened to a guy who seems like he's got everything under control, figured out, where people would be killing other people to have a blog like yours, and the audience, and the books, and success, and the huge conferences thing, you know, like I don't want to sound like an asshole. No, I don't mean like people, everything exactly. That's how, that's what I think every day. I'm like, yeah, I've got like all this stuff, right? I don't want to be like, Hey, I'm like struggling in my self esteem or my self worth or like I'm anxious. Like I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it's, you know, junior Seau was a 10 or something plus all pro, 10-year all pro in the NFL, played for 15 or something years, and then committed suicide a couple years after because he didn't feel like, you know, he was sad.

And he had anxiety and he had depression and he didn't know what to live for anymore, essentially. Right. And that's true. I think I know that on an intellectual level. You know, I heard Jason Mraz talk about this a little bit once. He said, you know, just because you're successful doesn't mean you can't experience melancholy. Absolutely. And I really like that because I kind of relate it to that. So I understand it on an intellectual level. It's more just like on an emotional level. Sure. Because I do feel the

same as you, like with great power comes great responsibility. So I've got to suck it up and figure it out so that I can serve my community. And I guess what I'm realizing is just sucking it up isn't really working. You tried it for a while. Yeah. You know, like I'm really good at kind of like persevering. Right. And so this is the thing I don't know what to do with.

When did you notice it start happening? Like you started feeling flat? Was it before last year or when the incident happened? Yeah. So for those who don't know, my brother passed away last year or when the when the incident happened yeah so for for those who don't know my brother passed away last year and he was 31 so how old are you i'm 37 yeah so that was i mean definitely a major thing that kind of you know put me on that path i don't think that's that's all of it but um it still feels very new to me and it's not something that i know quite how to how to deal with right yeah yeah and so were you feeling this before that did you feel like after that that's when it really was

like it hit you in a way where you're like this doesn't make sense because i remember you saying at the event you're just like there's essentially you said there's no reason for this like i don't right i believe there was a reason for this yeah no of course not i think you even said something like you know usually i like to say there's a reason for everything but there's no reason for this yeah i would never say that again you know i think that's a terrible thing to say like everything happens for a reason if you even if you haven't experienced like a tremendous loss a personal loss in your life if you look around the world and you can see poverty and disasters and all kinds of

terrible things like yeah you know sometimes things happen but there's not a reason for them of course so i don't identify this as like you know the sole like the sole reason for my discontent i think i've been struggling for a while it's a while i mean years or yeah a couple years like it's it's like a, it's kind of like a path. I mean, some of it, we talked about identity. You brought up this point about being a professional athlete. I have this quest of going to every country in the world. You did it. Yeah, I did it, which is a problem. 10 years, right? Yeah. 10 years, 11, 11 years. Now what? Yeah. We talked about it a little bit actually in a previous interview, you know, for the last book. And this is actually very common for anybody who pursues a quest or a big dream you know like you get to

the end and you're like cool it's like you go back to the hobbit right it's like getting flying in the ring and then you go back to the hobbit right right right it's over right right and so i think what i'm figuring out is um and i said this at the time but i didn't it's like the disconnect between the intellectual knowledge and the emotional knowledge i said at the time, but it's like the disconnect between the intellectual knowledge and the emotional knowledge. I said at the time, you know, because everybody was like, what's the next quest? You know, and they're expecting the answer to be some kind of like big travel thing. You know, I'm going to go to the moon. You know, I'm going to like go down to the center of the earth or whatever, you know, or more places or like in the jungle.

And I knew that the answer wasn't that. I knew that, you know, the answer had had to do something with community. It was like the answer is actually like going deeper in the kind of work that I'm trying to do to impact people. That's what I said, you know, a year and a half or two years ago. Now, I think maybe I have a little bit more emotional awareness that I could modify that and say, OK, that's all true. awareness that I could modify that and say, okay, that's all true. Um, but I think a big part of it that I was missing before is this aspect of inner work and, and figuring out how I can deal with the loss of my brother, um, how I can be a good person, how I can somehow transform tragedy and trauma and sadness and anxiety and all these kind of things, uh, into something

that is, that is somehow positive, you know, not that I would, not that I would, uh, you know, ever say that, that this was a good thing that happened. It was a terrible thing that happened. Um, but you explain what happened or was it, I forget exactly what happened. So my brother made a tragic choice. That's what happened. Yeah. Okay. back what happened so my brother made a tragic choice that's what happened yeah okay and it was very it seemed very impulsive and uh there i mean like looking back we can kind of identify

maybe some signs or something but at the time none of us had any idea right what's been coming up for you this last eight nine months in this process you know you've been working with someone on this what do you feel like it's been coming up for you is there eight, nine months in this process? You know, you've been working with someone on this. What do you feel like has been coming up for you? Has there any been lessons that you've learned from this? I haven't lost a family member that close to me. So I have no context of how you're feeling and I'm not going to act like I do know how you're feeling, but I can assume that there are people listening who have lost someone very close to them who can relate completely to what you're feeling right now so i'm curious what the lesson is you're gaining or what you're learning about yourself in this process it's a tricky thing because you know in my books and in

my blog and all this i write prescriptive i try to write prescriptively and here are the steps and if you want to travel the world here's how you get the frequent flyer miles to do it free flights if you want to start a business here are's how you get the frequent flyer miles to do it. The free flights. If you want to start a business, here are the eight steps. This is what, you know, is so new to me because I don't know that there are eight steps. I don't know that there's like, here's lesson number one. Here's lesson number two. Like I have like sometimes moments of insight or whatever, but I don't know. Like I feel like it's like, it's not like a hierarchy of lessons.

It's more like a cobweb or something yeah and somehow maybe they connect but i don't quite you know see see where they are so this is like i feel like this is the new quest you know which is is not something i ever would have it's not what you set out predicted or imagine go for sure and i don't even i'm not even really describing it in very like descriptive terms because i don't necessarily know what's going to happen at the end or what the outcome is but I feel like somehow somehow I have to be better because of this somehow I have to to you know honor my brother um maybe learn some lessons that he wasn't able to learn and I don't necessarily know what all those are right right um but i feel like

that's that's what i have to do yeah what do you think is the best way to honor him i don't know yet i don't think it's going to be like i don't think it's going to be something you could package sure do you know what i mean yeah it's not like there's a foundation it's like one day i'm going to come and i come out of this i'm going to start a charity right you know day I'm going to come out of this and I'm going to start a charity. The rest of my life I'm going to raise money for this charity. That's too packaged. It's deeper. I don't know what it is, but it's not something that I could just say one sentence. Here's how I'm going to honor my brother. The goal is to figure that out.

What's your vision for yourself during this process? Have you thought about that? Or are you just kind of like one day at a time? No, I'm actually not very good at one day at a time. I think that's a very good strategy. I'm very future oriented, which is kind of frustrating in a situation like this. Because one, the situation with Ken, my brother, I can't change that. Nothing in the future could ever change that. And then also not just that situation, but just sadness and anxiety in general. It's kind of hard because I want to be able to like point to the one year plan and the five year plan, the 10 year plan.

That's what I've done. That's what you're good at. That's what I've, yeah, that's really good at that. Yeah. So now it's like, that's kind of taken from me. You feel like you don't have a one or ten year plan? I feel like I have a good one year plan. I don't feel like I have a good ten year plan, no.

And why is that upsetting to you? Why is that bringing you anxiety? Because it's brought me comfort in the past to have it. And so now I don't have it. So now you're forced to live in the moment. Yeah. Or be more present it sounds like. And not have a plan, not have a future mapped out for you.

Maybe so. Huh. It's all new. Interesting. Okay. What's so scary about living in the moment or not having a plan? I don't know if it's scary. It's unfamiliar.

Uh-huh. Okay. I mean, that's why I had the quest. I could always say, I'm doing this. I was doing lots of other stuff, too. But then I had this anchor point. You know? Right. say i'm doing this i was doing lots of other stuff too but then i had this anchor point right you know right and if you always have something planned if you always have something that you're kind of working toward then you don't necessarily have to answer all these difficult day-to-day

questions what's the most difficult day-to-day question well the different i mean the questions of like what's going on in our minds. Like why am I sometimes unhappy even though I have a great life and, and great success in lots of different ways? Those kinds of questions. And why do you think it is at the end of the day? Have you thought more and more about this? I'm just kind of delving into it now. I mean,

it's really, it's good to have this conversation with you because I can say, honestly, I have, I have not had this conversation, certainly not in any kind of public setting like this at all. I mean, the limited conversations have been with very close friends and therapy sessions. There's not usually a microphone and a headset associated with it. So that's why sometimes I don't know exactly how to answer.

Sure. Okay. Well, what do you think has come up for you in these sessions? The reason I'm sticking with this is because I want to – I love to have clarity too. You know what I mean? For me, I'm a solutions type of guy. So I'm trying to uncover what it is because I think actually a lot of people are going to be appreciating this process. If you're not watching this, Chris is a little uncomfortable. But I think it's important because I don't think you're alone, man. I don't think you're alone.

I think it's a lot of people. Maybe they have the success you do. Maybe they don't. But they're at a crossroads where they're not sure what's going to happen in the next three, five, ten years. They don't have a plan figured out. They're at a crossroads. they're not sure what's going to happen the next three, five, ten years. They don't have a plan figured out. They're at a crossroads. They're uncertain. They're feeling like flat. And I think this is more people than you think feel this way. Obviously, you have your own

emotions and your own feelings and your own life that you've experienced. But I think people are feeling a similar way that is really powerful. And so I want to keep talking about this. I want to keep diving into this. Yeah. I'm not necessarily uncomfortable in having this conversation. It's more that I'm uncomfortable in the situation. That's what sucks. Actually, I want to be open and transparent about this because I realize a lot of people have struggles. And for me, like so we've said I've had different struggles over time and now I have this situational tragedy.

I guess my point for me is I'm tired of accepting it. Like I'm tired of accepting that I'm always going to be anxious or I'm going to be sad. It's this complicated thing because to get through something like this, you have to make your peace with it. That's something that I'm kind of learning at least in the counseling. Is this the peace with your own flatness in your life or the peace with your brother's death or? I don't know because it's all connected. It's all like I haven't found a way to separate it. So I think you have to kind of like walk through that. You know, I went on a trip

recently and it was a great trip. Like I went around the world, had a lot of really fun recently and it was a great trip. I went around the world, had a lot of really fun experiences. And so the trip was great. Situationally, everything was fine. But I was also, almost every single day I cried. And so I kind of came back out of that and went back to my little counseling session. And I told that story and she said, that's great. I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I think we're going to be able to work through this now because you're not coming to peace with it, but we're actually acknowledging it. We're trying to acknowledge it. But I guess what I said about accepting it is maybe I feel like for a while, as we said before, I kind of sweep it under the rug or put it aside. And I guess it's just come to a point in my life where I have to do something about this. Like I have to, and I don't know exactly how I will resolve that. Um, but somehow

I need to, what do you want to feel every day? If you can make a declaration, like this moment moving forward, this is how I want to feel purposeful. Okay. What else? I mean, that's good. Start with that purposeful, joyful, sure. Purposeful, joyful. What else? I mean, that's good. Start with that. Purposeful, joyful. Sure. Purposeful, joyful. Fulfilled, satisfied. Yeah, those are good words. Okay.

Yeah. I think I like the top two first, you know, purposeful, joyful. But not sadness and anxiety. Yeah, not to excess, you know. Right. I think it's important to feel a range of emotions. It's kind of like we said before, like if you're always a winner, like maybe you're not trying hard enough. Right, right, right. Right?

So I actually want to try for some stuff and not not you know achieve it um but yeah i think it's the sustained nature of it yeah that is problematic interesting and what do you think's gonna create that for you on a daily basis purposeful and joyful yeah i don't know because i feel like i love what i do this is the thing. I actually am enjoying my work, enjoying my stuff. You're doing what you're born to do. I think so. Yeah, I feel that way. I do. Can't imagine anything, any different career or whatever. So I think it comes back to that inner work thing. And, you know, maybe a year from now or something will come back and I can explain it more articulately. Sure, sure. Do you think joyfulness and purposefulness is a choice?

Maybe for a long time I would have said yes, but I don't think so now. Okay. Because I would make that choice. Choose to be joyful? Those are my values. Like we said, that gratitude is my value. Like I don't want to be ungrateful. Part of the flat feeling is, you know, sometimes in the past, if I've had like this anxiety

or whatever, been able to get out of it by helping someone in some way. Being in service. This is a great strategy. Create flow. You create joy. Or just do something to help someone. Yes. It's a great motivator.

It's amazing. Right? And altruistic. Yeah, for sure. So I guess my challenge here in the flatness is sometimes that doesn't work for me. That's kind of why I realized I've gone to another level with it and why I needed to like maybe seek some help or whatever, because, you know, like I see something on the news about some terrible thing that happened and I don't necessarily feel empathy for that. And that troubles me. You know, I don't want to be like, here's this terrible thing that

happened and I'm just sad about myself and that's ridiculous. But it is what it is. And so I'm – So in this last year, have you been in service as equally as before or more than before? That's a very good question. I don't know if I've asked myself that question. It sounds like you've been traveling the world and going on adventures. Yeah, yeah. But have you done like – and not just like let me put up a donation page.

Yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure. But actually just shown up and like – Yeah. Got the homeless or whatever. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. But actually just showing up and like, got the homeless or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, something as simple as in your local community. Right, right.

Have you just shown up every day for an hour and saying, how can I give? I haven't done something so strategic, you know, and intentional as that. I think, I mean, I have tried to like incorporate habits of giving. But I'm sure I could definitely make some progress on that. Okay. I'm curious because— Maybe it is a question of do we change our behavior and then whatever follows after that. I mean, Tony Robbins talks about this, whether you believe it or not, but it's like you change your physical state and your emotional state changes. Okay.

And the same thing, you change your emotional state and your emotional state changes. Okay. And the same thing, you change your emotional state and your physical state changes. You know, if you stand up tall, it's like the – what's – Amy Cuddy, is that her name? About the power of body language. Okay, yeah. You know, just putting your arms outstretched. Sure, sure, sure. It's going to build testosterone and increase your confidence and your joy and your happiness. So I think a lot of our physical state, you know, not slouching over, not being in the fetal position all day, emotionally and physically,

so to say, if you're in that position, I think you're going to continue to stay in a cycle of sadness or anxiety. But when you choose every day to build positive habits, I think, of I'm going to work out, I'm going to give every single day for 30 minutes to this community center, I'm going to whatever X, Y, and Z, I think you're going to start reprogramming yourself to being like, you know what? I'm seeing other examples of actually how I'm connecting and building relationships with people who have it way worse than I do. And it feels great to serve and support them.

But I'm also seeing that there's lessons here. I don't think we're ever going to learn the reason for all the things that happen. But I'm curious about this because I feel like at some point in my life, this is going to happen to me. You know what I mean? Like, it's inevitable. With all the people I'm close with, it's inevitable that someone is going to die at some point in my life.

I don't know if you can prepare for it. And how am I going to prepare for this? I don't think you prepare for it. Yeah, but how am I going to be like, you know what? This is going to suck for a while. You know, I'm probably going to be sad and depressed and go through a range of anger and frustration and guilt or whatever I'm feeling. And that's okay. I think it's okay to feel those things.

But I think what's interesting is to know how to eventually pick yourself up and start working in a positive way to be purposeful. I think, though, I mean, everything you just said, totally correct. I think though, sometimes something unpredictable happens. Yeah. You know, in these situations, like everything you just expressed, like it's going to be terrible and it's going to be okay. But just like in a quest, you know, any good quest, it's like there's this progress toward a goal, there is an end point, et cetera.

But if it's a true quest, something happens along the way that changes things and you don't you know you don't necessarily know what that is and despite all the skills that you have despite all the life experience that you have it's going to be put to the test actually because you know this whatever this unpredictable thing is you know by its nature you didn't know it was going to happen and you and you didn't necessarily say okay here's, you didn't know it was going to happen and you didn't necessarily say, okay, here's, you know, here's where I was going to be sad or here's where I was going to struggle and then I'm going to be okay. You know, like you might think you're okay at a certain point and then something else. Which brings me back to the point of born for this

and giving up. If you're on a quest for something you're born to do and you believe in your heart, I'm born to do this thing. Yeah. And then something comes at you and stops you or makes you go off track. How do you know when to continue the quest? And when, as it's part of the quest, as every quest has this, and when you're actually just supposed to give up? Sure. Well, I think it's important in these kind of situations to look at what is the underlying motivation? What is the goal? Maybe what is the value? And like if we talk about different things like becoming a professional athlete, you know, what was the real goal?

Wasn't the real goal greatness? Yeah. Essentially, which is exactly what you have. I don't want to just say parlayed it into because that's kind of like a career thing. But I mean mean your life. Greatness was the goal. Writing books and hosting these events, ultimately the goal is community and serving humanity in some way. Connection.

Connection, right? So I think sometimes you're working toward this thing. You feel like you're born to do it, but then you can't. There's still some direction there as you go deeper which is exactly what i'm going to do have you met anyone over the last year who's gone through a similar experience as you who has made it out the other side have you met anyone like that yeah i have we've actually had a couple of different people speak to our community about this experience. And I've talked with a few people. I still am kind of not really in this research stage. Like I haven't actually read a lot of books on this.

Like what happened with my brother, there's a whole canon of books and research on that topic. But I actually haven't gone near it just because it still feels kind of so fresh. So at a certain point, I think I'll kind of delve into that more, but not yet. What do you think will happen when you go into it? Something unpredictable. Interesting. Maybe not. I mean, maybe it's easy to predict and say, well, it'll kind of force a deeper level of introspection or grief.

I mean, what are you afraid of to read or to look into that? What's the biggest thing holding you back? And when is enough time for you? Who's to say? So we're recording this conversation just a little bit in advance of when the book comes out. And now it's been eight months

and I haven't gone back to look at my brother's emails in all this time. And at some point, I'm sure I will. Like what emails he sent you? Yeah, emails he sent me, like our emails. You haven't Googled, gmailed his name to see? No, I have not.

Okay. Because obviously we have 20 years of – You were very close? Yeah, 20 years of regular email correspondence about all kinds of stuff, about video games, about travel. He was in the army, served in Afghanistan and Iraq, so his stories from there, at a certain point, I want

to go through that, of course. But I just haven't been able to yet. When do you think you will? I don't know. I don't think I should wait. Do you want to give yourself like, are you looking to give yourself a deadline? Are you just waiting for the right moment? This is the thing about this stuff. You can't package it. It's like the ultimate answer. How will I honor my brother? I don't know because I can't put it in a box and say, this is my box of honoring my brother. So it's the same kind of thing. Like, when will you be ready to do that? I'm not sure. And I'm the kind of person that would very much like to know. I would like to have it on my calendar next Tuesday at this time. And maybe that is the

best way. What if you just phased it? Maybe so. What's the worst thing that would happen? I know. I guess what I'm just learning though is like I could do that for sure. And maybe that is the best approach. What I'm learning is the tools and the skills and the resources that I have that have helped me, you know, throughout my life that have helped me like get into college without going to high school, you know, get out of being a juvenile delinquent, make something of my life, travel, be an entrepreneur, all these different skills. They are not sufficient for what I need to do right now. That's what I know. Interesting. So that kind of thinking, let me schedule it, let me do this.

Yeah, I like it. I want to do that. But what I'm saying is it hasn't quite worked. I've kind of run into this wall or this ceiling or whatever you call it, that barricade that I can't apply the same reasoning to. Sure. And maybe you don't know the tools of how to handle it

once you do look at the emails or once you do go through the stuff. Or maybe it's very cathartic and good, but I don't know. Just at the moment, I just feel that there's some kind of block there. Well, if there's anything I can do to support, let me know. Thanks. Let me know how I can.

Thank you. If you want an accountability buddy or just someone to ask questions to, I'm here for you. What would you say is your philosophy this year? I think you've had a creed for all these different things. Yeah, yeah. Sounds like a lot has shifted for you and it's constantly evolved. Sure, sure. I think I still have this same overall worldview. My philosophy, which is true in life and career, is you don't have to live your life the way others expect. You can do good things for yourself and for others at the same time. It's not a false choice.

It's not a dichotomy. You know, this has been my message for a long time. I still very much believe in it. So now it's just a question of adding to that and applying that in a different way and realizing that, you know, the goals that I have now are not necessarily related to deliverables. Because just as I like to schedule things on my calendar, you know, I also like to have a deliverable. Here's the next book.

Here's the next thing. Here's the next whatever. But I don't see quite what the deliverable is here. On a scale of one to 10 every day, 10 being the happiest, how happy do you think you are on average? 10 being the happiest you could ever be, the happiest day of your life every day, or that feeling? Maybe 6, 6-7. 6-7, and I'd like to be an 8

or a 9. I wouldn't want to be a 10, because I always want to have something to reach for. Sure, sure. Okay. What if you're just always a 10? Then it'd have to be an 11-point scale. Okay, gotcha. Okay. What do you think it's going to take for you to get to 8, 9? Figuring this stuff out.

Yeah. You know, can't change the past. I know that. So got to, you know, apply it some way in the future. What would you tell me if I was going through this? If I was like, yeah, I'm about a six every day and you knew my, you know, the story, the same story happened. Sure, sure.

What do you think you would tell me? I'm just curious. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I would tell you. I mean, if I hadn't had this experience, it's like we were sitting on the opposite side. You had this experience a year ago and it just happened to me last month. Similar type of situation. Okay. Okay. And you'd already been there. You're like still in it. But I was like, man, I'm screwed right now. I'm, I'm a one, you know, I don't know what to do. What would you, what would you give me? I don't think I would give you advice. I would give you companionship

and I would give you empathy and I would say, I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. Yeah. And this is not okay. And yes, you should hang in there, you know, let us know what you need etc uh but that's going to sound very hollow to you yeah so the biggest thing i could say is i'm so sorry have you been getting enough of that sure i think so yeah companionship and yeah i think i mean a lot of people don't know you know what to do with this kind of and i totally get stuff yeah i get it what do you yeah how do you do you don't sound, like you said, like hollow. Right, right. Just like everyone says the same thing.

Right, right. How do you truly, because I think it goes against both walls. It goes against the person's walls of not knowing how to deal with it, of all the mixed emotions of understanding it, to someone who's not going through with it. Well, this is uncomfortable for me, too, because now I have to face things that I have to really go somewhere to be able to connect with someone at a level so that they feel loved and accepted. Yeah. But that's compassion.

It is compassion. That is compassion. A lot of people aren't good at that though. Yeah. Well, compassion is a skill probably that you acquire as well. Yeah. And maybe you can acquire it through your own life trauma or you can also acquire it through caring and understanding that that being there or being available or or reaching out is good not expecting you know reply or something

what's the thing the tool skill or thing you've gained more than anything in the last year because of this? Are you more compassionate towards other people? Are you more connected? Do you look people in the eyes with more intimacy? Is there something that you've noticed about yourself where you're like, I was never this way before this happened? Yeah. Also, very good question. Not something that I've considered.

Because before this happened, I never saw you as vulnerable. Sure. You were just met you. I mean before this happened. I never saw you as vulnerable. Sure. You were just like the guy who had it figured out. The guy who was just like off to the next. But now I'm seeing like a whole new Chris. Who's just like. I think I've gained an appreciation for. You know I keep using this phrase inner work.

There's probably other terms and phrases for it. Because I still lack the vocabulary. I guess I've gained an appreciation for whatever is required to be mindful and to kind of go within yourself and maybe look and see, you know, some bad parts of yourself or some things you're uncomfortable with or some things that are bringing you down from the outside and trying to navigate that. I think maybe an appreciation for, you know, the fact that this is a skill and this is something that can be learned and people do go through, you know, terrible experiences, uh, and they are able, you know, many of them are able to come out on the other side and to not, you know, live in depression for decades, um, to not be traumatized forever. And, you know, understanding that there is some there is some kind of path to finding that and it's it's not found like you know in the sidebar of a prescriptive non-fiction book

necessarily um or even on a great podcast yeah but there is a path somewhere right so now i believe that and again intellectual knowledge emotional knowledge um jonathan fields is a is a great mutual friend of ours. You know, Jonathan is very, very good at this. Yes. And I've always understood that he's very good at it. I haven't always understood exactly what it is, you know. And there's other people as well.

So I think I've kind of gained an appreciation for that. What would you say is your superpower? In the past, I would have said my superpower is always knowing what to do next. Okay. And believing in the next step. I love to have a next step, you know. In the now? In the now.

In the now. I'm still committed. I'm still like, you know. Still believe in the next step? Yeah, I still believe in the next step for sure. I just don't necessarily always know what it is. You know, I do keep going and we talked about giving up and i i definitely like i do persevere you know i can i can change and i can adapt different strategies but i'm going to persevere for sure yeah what's what's your kryptonite like the weakness yeah maybe falling into

the same habit of doing things the same way because it's comfortable you know it's and it's familiar so i know how to get up early and work really hard and crush stuff out and right take on another commitment and start another project i know how to do that um but you know actually slowing down is just really hard have you ever just spent a month doing nothing no never that's kind of terrifying. Why? Maybe terrifying is the wrong word. It's unattractive. It sounds boring. I wonder what you'd learn from no email, no phone.

Can't picture it, man. No productivity for even a week. That's a long time. Yeah, not a month, but a week. You just weren't able to produce something or schedule anything or take a phone call or tweet or anything. I'm just wondering what you think. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Might be a new book experiment.

I don't know. But then it would relate to productivity. Right, that's true. You learn how to hack it somehow. I know. Interesting. What's your definition of happiness? Forward motion. Contin improving, improving, you know, my circumstances, my life,

as well as improving others' lives. Uh, I like the word impact that you used. I like that. I think of influence, same thing, not influence in like a celebrity way, influencers, but true influence. And probably a lot of the people who are listening, like if they don't have blogs or podcasts or books, they still have a lot of influence. Yeah, with the community,

their friends and family. And that influence is actually much stronger. You know, we're impacted much, much more by the people who are around us than by, you know, somebody who's out there

doing something. So I'm interested in influence. What's your biggest fear? That I'll remain stuck. In the situation you're in currently? Yeah. St interested in influence. What's your biggest fear? That I'll remain stuck. In the situation you're in currently? Yeah. Stuck in general. That I won't truly find that next quest.

That I won't go to the next level. And when I say next level, I don't mean the next level of revenue in my business or the next level of book sales or whatever but i think there's always a next level in our lives and i think that is like a fundamental desire of of humanity once our lives are met we want to continue to improve and i guess my greatest fear it's not just that I won't go to the next level. The greatest fear is that I have plateaued. And that is troubling. How does someone break through a plateau? I feel like that's a question I would ask you or Jonathan Fields or somebody else like that.

Sure. You know, I would be like, Lewis, help me out because, you know, you've been more successful than me in lots of different ways. How can I break through this plateau? And you've had specific training in it as well, I think, as an athlete. Sure. I mean, for me, there's a couple different things you could do. You can keep pushing forward or you can take a step back and reevaluate. And what it sounds like for me, the answer I would give to you is kind of what I was alluding to is I would, you're really good at traveling for adventure, but I would do something different where you disconnect from the quest to take a step back and evaluate whether that's doing inner work,

meditating, just being journaling, just to journal, not to like figure out the next prescription. Right. Um, and it just looking at things differently, doing things you wouldn't normally do. But I think taking time for your mind to be calm.

I don't think you've allowed your mind to be calm. It sounds like a lot of noises in your head constantly from different things and situations and frustrations and angers. So I'd say being in nature for a period of time, part of that time being alone, part of that time being with friends and family, people you care about, and reflection. I think it's really important to reflect. And I go back to what I have in my book, which is called The Perfect Day. And that's where you go in nature. And you spend time alone and you are just in silence listening to the birds, the bees, the nature, the trees,

and you reflect on what is it my dream because I think we get so caught up in dreaming in the day-to-day stuff, in the emails, in the texts, in the phone, the people that are around us. It's hard for our minds to decompress and to relax. So I think if I was to give you a prescription, I would say find a place to relax without anyone for a while. And that may be a weekend, a long weekend, a week, however long it takes until you get the answers you need. And don't go for a reason other than to just be at peace.

So maybe it's a meditation. Maybe it's a 10-day guided meditation retreat. Maybe it's a yoga thing. But during that, you find time to be alone and journal. What is my dream? What is my dream? And you allow yourself to dream like when you're five, six again. Say, if I could have anything, because you can, what would it be?

And then I walk out of the woods with the answer. Who knows? Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Magic ring. Yeah, yeah, who knows? I mean, you might have the answer, you might not. Right. But I think if you've got a plateau,

I think you need space and time to step away. That's what I would suggest. I like it, thanks. Even just taking a hike by yourself without the phone with just a pen and a piece of paper, just to reflect. I think that's a good step in doing that consistently. So that's what I would prescribe. Cool. Final few questions.

Yeah. I think this has been great. Sure. I want to make sure everyone gets this book. You're going to learn a lot in here. Born for this. And everything that we've been talking about is not in the book, by the way. It's not in the book.

That's not what the book is about. It's not in the book. How to find the work you were meant to do. But if you do feel stuck, because I think this is for people that are in your situation who feel stuck, plateau, go back and read your book, essentially. Born for this. How to find the work you were meant to do. I think that's what brings happiness and fulfillment, too, when you find that and when you can continue to grow in that process. So I think you guys will like the book.

I'm in the last chapter, so make sure to check that out. Read the last chapter first if you want to. Back to front. Exactly. And you can go to bornforthisbook.com. You've got a bunch of information there, so people can check it out there. Get the book. Leave a review on Amazon. All that good stuff.

You're at Chris Guillebeau everywhere online. Do you want to spell the last name so people can... Yeah, it's like H-O-W-E-S. No, it's G-U-I-L-L-E-B-E-A-U. Perfect. So make sure to go get that and support Chris

with his current quest. Final few questions. What are you most grateful for today? I'm grateful for this conversation. I really am because I don't talk about this a lot. Yeah. So it's good. Awesome. And what are you most grateful for in your life recently? I am excited about the book. I am excited not just about the book as a product, but you and I have talked about this before. I am excited, not just about the book as a product, but you and I've talked about this before. I think some business authors write books just to be part of their marketing thing or something, and that's fine. But I actually like writing books, and I like the process of going

out and talking with people about the ideas and hearing how they can apply them in their life. So I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, cool. This is a question I've been asking people lately. If you had an unlimited amount of money handed to you right now to solve one problem in the world, and you could only use it for one thing and you had one shot at it, what's the problem that you would want to solve? Right, right. On a very practical level, I mentioned I lived in Africa for a time, and Scott Harrison, the founder of Charity Water, is a very good friend of mine.

So on a practical level, I think providing clean water for people everywhere is number one. If I would take it, you know, something that's more kind of related to what I'm doing, helping people think for themselves more, helping people, you know, make decisions for themselves, helping people like understand how to do those things that we've been talking about, how to find your perfect day, how to get closer to the intersection of joy and money flow. The more and more people who are asking questions of themselves and of authority, I think that's all for the better. So it's a very practical need for a lot of people in the world who don't have what we have. But then for everybody who does have what we have, great power, great responsibility.

So how can we apply that more? Sure. Okay. It's many, many years from now and it's your last day, but it's been a joyful, amazing ride, right? And you're healthy, everything, but it's just the last day and everyone's there to support you. Oh, wow.

And it's a celebration. But for some reason, every book you've ever written has been erased from time. Every blog post gone. Every audio gone. Yep, yep. This interview is dead. Okay. And they say, you know, great grandpa Chris, great, great grandpa, we got a piece of paper

and a pen. And we want you to write down three truths that you know to be true for yourself about everything you've learned in life. This is going to be essentially the only words we have of you, lessons that we should apply to our lives, your three truths for us to live by. So if I was the great grandpa in that situation,

I'd probably have a little bit more time. You would have time. I feel like I more time to give a terrible answer or something, you know, whatever's coming up for you right now. Yeah. And it may be different in a year. It's good. It's good.

Three truths, you know, three truths might just be one, you know, interconnected truth. We did talk about gratitude. You know, I talked about my struggle and living up to this value that I very much

adhere to. I think I would hope that the truth is, you the truth is somehow if you get away from that center, find your way back. And maybe you find your way back by going in the woods. Or maybe you find your way back by changing your career or making another fundamental change in your life or something totally different. I have no idea. But however you can get back to that, I think it's good. So that's one truth. Can I just give you one good one?

Give me two more. Two more. What else you got? Okay. All right. What else you got? All right. That could be the main one.

That's fine. That's the center. That's good. Do everything you can to explore and discover. Do make lists. There you go. Make a list. I've always been a big list guy.

Make your list of, you don't have to call it a bucket list because that sounds kind of atmospheric. It sounds kind of like, you know, things that'll never happen. Make your like five-year list, make your 10-year list. You know, when you're 20, 25, 30, when you're 15, whatever, like here are all the things I'm going to, I want to do and then find a way to make those things happen. You know, I've talked about some dissatisfaction in this interview and some struggles that I've had, but I do want to be clear that I've also had a lot of happiness and a lot of the happiness I have had is by identifying big goals and saying like, I want, and as I've moved toward those goals, the goals have gotten bigger and I never would have had the vision to go to every country in the world had I not started traveling in the first place and going to five countries and ten countries and then setting the goal to go to 100 and then eventually everyone.

As you work toward things, I think your… New things open up. Yeah, new things open up. So there you go. Work toward things. What's that third truth? What's that third truth? Come on, Grandpa. What is it? Yeah that third truth? Come on, Grandpa.

What is it? Yeah, I know. Come on, man. I'm dying here. Like literally. Right. I think the third truth, it has to relate somehow

to this like inner satisfaction and this inner peace. It has to relate to like being able to see yourself as part of the world, realizing you're not the center of the universe, right?'re not the center of the universe, right? But in your life, you are. In your life, you can only own yourself. You can only own

your own actions, your own growth, your weaknesses, your superpower, your kryptonite. But coming to terms with that, not in the sense of accepting defeat, not in the sense of accepting your limitations, but just realizing like, here is what you are supposed to do, you know, on this planet, what you were born to do in your life, in your relationships, in your career, and as much as possible, creating convergence around that. Yeah, I love it. It's kind of like nothing matters in the outer world unless you master your inner world. I got one final question for you, but before I ask it, I got to acknowledge you, Chris.

I acknowledge you for coming down here and allowing me to ask you and keep diving into these questions. That's good. I acknowledge you for everything you've been through, man, because I can only imagine what you're going through. Because I can only imagine what you're going through. And I know it's extremely challenging to face something that's really scary and uncomfortable and saddening, extremely saddening and upsetting and all these things. And I think you're doing it gracefully. Even though I don't think you're acknowledging yourself enough, I think you've done it gracefully. Most people would not be able to get through this and write a new book and show up. And you did this two days before. You did the biggest event ever.

And you were graceful. You weren't perfect. You said things that you say. I would never say that again. Sure, sure. But you still show up to serve the world. And I think you don't give yourself enough credit that you should. Well, thank you for saying that. So I want to acknowledge you. Thank you. Yeah. We should also maybe acknowledge the to serve the world. And I think you don't give yourself enough credit that you should. Well, thank you for saying that.

So I want to acknowledge you. Thank you. Yeah. We should also maybe acknowledge the listeners and the viewers. Because there's probably some people who have also been through something difficult. Yeah. And we should acknowledge their strength as well. Absolutely.

Yeah. So I appreciate you being on here. I got one final question for you. Okay. What's your definition of greatness? Is greatness different from happiness and purpose and fulfillment because i gave that answer of like continuously improving right yeah um maybe that maybe greatness is like exponential of that right continuously improving but then not just on like

this trajectory but somehow there's a jump right somehow there Somehow there's like a, no, I am going to go to that next level. And it's not necessarily this linear next level, right? But it's something like totally different. And I think that's pretty great. Chris Gillibald, thanks for coming on Lewis House. Thank you.

Appreciate it. There you have it guys. Thank you so, so much for listening and holding the space to let Chris and I share some intimate and powerful messages at the same time. And if you enjoyed this, make sure to share this out with your friends. Again, you guys are born for incredible things. You're born to do amazing things.

And I want to get this message out for Chris because I think it really resonates with a lot of people. Again, the link is lewishouse.com slash 312. Share it out on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, tag me and Chris. You can get his handle and information on the show notes at lewishouse.com slash 312. I appreciate you guys. I love you. Thank you so much for being incredible human beings for listening to this podcast for sharing the message of greatness to your friends, and constantly stepping up to the next level in your life.

Every single day, you guys rock and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.