The School of Greatness - 327 Stacy London on Styling the Life of Your Dreams

Episode Date: May 11, 2016

"Style is about an individual . . . It starts with self-awareness." - Stacy London If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/327

This is episode number 327 with Stacey London. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to this very special interview with the one and only Stacey London.

I'm super excited about this episode and I hope you'll share it out with your friends and let them know that you're listening to it by sending out the link lewishouse.com slash 327. That's where they can listen to it right now and you can also watch the full video interview back at lewishouse.com slash 327 and check out the full show notes that we cover from today's episode. Now Stacey London has become a good friend of mine over the last year and she started her career as a fashion editor at Vogue and transitioned into being a stylist for celebrities and designers. She moved into television by co-hosting What Not to Wear on TLC with Clinton Kelly and doing fashion reporting for Access Hollywood, The Early Show, and The Today Show. And now she's on The View.

We talked about a lot of different things in this episode, including the difference between style and fashion and what that actually means. We also talked about her struggles with body image pre-TV and what she went through as a child with different eating disorders. We also talked about how long it took for her to get casted on her TV show and that entire process and how she actually almost didn't get casted for the show. We also talk about how she got that gray streak in her hair and how she turned essentially a trauma into what is now considered her trademark. We

talk about the challenges she faced from switching from print to television in the fashion world and so much more in this episode with the one, the only, Stacey London. Well, welcome everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited about our guest today. We have Stacey London in the house. Hello. It's so good to be here.

Thanks so much. We're here at Nick Onkin's studio. Yes, we are. Hanging out. And I'm very excited because I met you through Nick. When was this? Like eight months ago or something? No, it was almost a year ago. Was it a year ago?

Yes. It was springtime at Soho House outside. Yes, it was springtime at Soho House outside. I met you. Was it a year ago? Yeah, it was June. Wow. Okay. Yeah, almost a year ago. Feels like so much longer. Right?

Yeah. But we finally got to do this interview. I've been wanting to interview for a while, so I'm glad we got to make it happen. Well, I feel very honored. You have very fancy, important people on your podcast. You do. Nick Onkin's been on it. Tony Robbins has been on it. I mean, you know.

No pressure. No pressure. I feel like I'm in good company. You're in great company, yes. Well, I'm glad that we're here, and I wanted to ask you the first question. We had a really intimate dinner about a few months ago that a lot of things were uncovered. We don't have to go that far. It wasn't even a few months ago.

When was it? It was like a month ago or two months ago. About two months ago, yeah. I would just like to tell everybody at home, if you don't know Lewis, Satya, has she been on your podcast? No, not yet. Satya Twina is a hat designer that we are all friendly with. And Satya and I came to the conclusion that you are like this truth seeker. You're like a missile.

You're like this missile bomb. You're like this missile bomb. And one of the things that's so interesting is this dinner that you're referring to. Like within half an hour of like sitting down to eat sausage, I was like basically in a pool of tears. But like not for any bad reason. You were just like you like to get to the heart of things in a way that most people don't do. I mean, you're very intense. Am I?

Hopefully it's not too intense. No, I didn't say too intense. I said intense not too intense. No, I didn't say too intense. I said intense. Intense. Yeah, I didn't say too. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha.

Okay, cool. Well, we were talking about this, my intent word, which is grace, which is a mutual friend of ours makes these, Chris. And you said you have a word. What's your word, your intention word right now? Yeah. Well, the one that I had made, and that was just a few months ago when I was in LA. Interesting, because also that's when I broke three toes. I remember this. Right? In a car door. I was supposed to go kickboxing with that dude who I'm still going

to take lessons with because he, that we need to film. But anyway, so my word, and it's a word that I'm actually, I wear a lot of words. If you haven't noticed, I have a lot of necklaces and rings on that have words on them. I love words. I love them painted. I love them in jewelry. And I have no tattoos, so I guess I just like to be able to take things on and off. It's your form of expression. Exactly.

So my intention word was almost. And a lot of people see that as something sort of defeatist, like almost, you almost got there. Almost first place. Good try. Good try. Bronze medal, you know, silver. But I don't look at it that way at all. I look at almost as something totally hopeful. Almost means that there's still more. There's still more out there to do, to see, to experience, to love, to have. In any way that you think about your life, that there's this sense that you don't get to finish until you're really at the end. And almost kind of motivates me to keep going because I can't rest on my laurels if I know there's more out there.

Yeah. So you're not saying to yourself, well, I've been successful on TV for many years, so I'm just going to live off of this experience and talk about that. You've got to keep going towards something else. Yeah. And I would say that now is actually a huge period of transformation for me. It's something where I started to realize that the 10 years that I was on TLC's What Not to Wear, I kind of didn't really recognize, A, that it had like such an impact in terms of pop culture,

and B, that it was sort of going to be the thing that I got saddled with afterwards is, oh my God, you're going to go on that show! Right? Which, whether they know me or not, is sort of going to be the thing that I got saddled with afterwards is, oh, I got to go for that show, right? Which, whether they know me or not, is sort of how I get represented. That was your identity for a long time. For a long time. My field, my profession has always been fashion. And I started off in magazines. My first job.

Vogue, right? Yes. My first job after Vassar was Vogue. So I went from Vassar, where I studied philosophy and literature and psychology to Vogue because that makes all the sense in the world. And, you know, rapidly decided that I shouldn't have bothered with college because then I could have been an editor in chief by that time. But then later on was really happy that I went to college to learn rudimentary things, like how to read and write and think critically, which basically are the skills to get you anywhere. Right. So, you know, I worked at Vogue for two years.

I was an assistant overall for many different editors and stylists for about five and a half years. about five and a half years. And then when I was 26, I became an editor at Mademoiselle. And I was there until I was fired when I was 30 by a new editor-in-chief. And meanwhile, they closed the magazine because of her. So wherever you are, Mandy, get going. And then I freelanced for about a year. And during that year, I started styling men, kids, women. I did commercials, all styling. And then I got asked to audition for this show. And it really was this turning point because I went from being behind the camera to in front of the camera full time. And that was 15 years ago. Wow. And what gave you the confidence to say, okay, now I can be on TV?

And did you ever think that you were going to be this TV personality or expert that was giving advice in front of the camera? Well, I've always been really good at giving advice, even when I don't know what I'm talking about. Sure, sure. But what I do think was that my stepmother is who I hold responsible for getting me the job, really, because I did about eight months of screen tests.

Every freelance stylist in New York City said they were auditioning. Half of them said they'd already gotten the job. I had no idea what was happening. And when I was in Marbella with my family, we get a phone call from my agent saying, my styling agent, saying, you've got to come back. You're, like, in the top 27, and they're going to do, you've got to come back. You're like in the top 27. And they're going to do a cocktail party with all of you.

And I was like, top 27? That's not even like the top 10. That's not even the top 15. That's a lot of people. Top 27. They want to meet all of you. They want to see you interact. And I was like, look, I am in Marbella.

Okay? Prince has a house here. And like, it was really lovely. Seafood. I said, they have me on tape. I've done it like four screen tests for eight months yeah if they don't know right if they don't know me by now and uh my agent was like okay i'll tell them i was like you know she said to me that's probably gonna kick you out of the running yeah and i said it's fine because it doesn't sound to me like i have it anyway i get off the phone and my stepmother was like, she was like, we're going to put you on a plane tomorrow.

You got to go back. Yeah. She was like, you need to go back. You need to go back and you need to go to that party because you're going to get the job and it's going to change your life. Wow. So without her saying that. I probably would not have come back. Yeah.

No, she was pretty like, you know, when you see people who are sort of in the zone, they have that vision for you, or you just feel what they're saying is like, wait, maybe she's really on to something. She felt it so strongly. And I didn't want to disappoint her. I didn't want to disappoint my dad. So I thought, well, maybe I should give it a shot. You didn't want to regret it either. At least if you go back, you're like, well, I didn't get it, but I gave it everything I had, right to disappoint my dad. So I thought, well, maybe I should give it a shot. You didn't want to regret it either.

At least if you go back, you're like, well, I didn't get it, but I gave it everything I had, right? Exactly. So I did. I went back. Wow. And P.S., they hired me. There you go. Was it right after that or was it like seven more months of like?

It wasn't seven more months, but there were weeks that went by. And I remember getting the phone call. I think I might have had a flip phone at the time. And I was in an elevator on my way to see one of my mentors who owns an advertising agency or PR agency. And I was in the elevator on my way to her office and I got a phone call and they said, yeah, congratulations, you got it. You know, we'll call your agent to iron out the details. said, yeah, congratulations, you got it. We'll call your agent to iron out the details. And I remember being in this elevator by myself thinking like, oh my God, this is such a big deal. And even then I thought, well, it's 11 episodes. I'll do 11 episodes. I can charge my clients more money

because I can say it was on television. And I guess the bigger story of that was that that first season I had a different co-host than the co-host that most people know, Clinton Kelly. And he was fired and they decided to keep me after the first season, which was also sort of like a big deal and a shock. As opposed to just recasting both people. Right, which is what I thought they would do. So they kept me, I did sort of 80 chemistry tests. 80?

Yes, like with cameras like this, where you meet and you're like, hi, hi, and you see whether or not anybody likes you together on camera. Here in New York and in LA, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then Clinton showed up one day and he put his hand on my knee, and he was like, I'm so sorry. I never do that. We both started laughing, and that was it. And he got asked the same question by the executive producer at that time that I got asked, like, how do you feel about growing your hair? Because we both had really short hair.

So we did. We both grew it. And, P.S. 10 seasons later. Wow. And they wanted more. Didn't you tell me they wanted to do more? It was still successful. Yeah, yeah.

It was definitely a tent peg show for the channel. To be honest with you, I think when I decided to leave, they decided to cancel the, irrespective of me. Right, right. I had to leave because I had a lot of health issues that I had to figure out and deal with, and I was not coping with anything. What do you mean, coping with what? Well, one of the things that I realized is that being in television, you're really at the mercy of the network and the process of making television.

It's a lot of work, right? Reality TV, for every minute you see, it probably takes an hour to shoot. Wow. So it was constant. And I went from that first season that was 11 episodes to a second season that was 60. Six zero. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

I mean, that's more than a show a week, obviously, that we were shooting. There was not a lot of rest. And as the show, we, we were airing, we air, we started airing after the Swan. I don't know if you guys remember that makeover show where they like, you know, gave people plastic surgery, new teeth and hair extensions. Um, but we launched it around the same time as Queer Eye. And Queer Eye, they were the... It was a big show. Yeah, they were the Fab Five. I remember that show.

They were Cinderella. It was amazing. And we were the stepsisters, yeah. They got a lot of play, whereas our show was a much slower build. And I would say it was probably four seasons, three seasons in, that we started to get more and more and more attention.

And I joined the Today Show team to be a style correspondent. And then I started working for Access Hollywood. And then Oprah called. And when Oprah calls, you don't say, bye. Even the television network made time for me to style Oprah. Wow. So what happened with that? She should have come on the show and make her over. No. She asked me to come on the show and talk about denim.

And she wanted me to take four different women who are all size 10, all different heights, all different body shapes, and find the perfect jeans for them. And then she wanted to be the fifth. So, and I wore a zillion different kinds of jeans, you know, everything from bell bottoms to like skinny peg jeans. Like I just, I was like, I'll display everything. Wow. And dressing these four women was actually really interesting to me because they all were size 10, but they all were so different, different ages and they carried their weight differently.

So that was like real education. I thought it was a very smart way to show how to wear jeans well. a time that I had to fit Oprah in jeans, which was about half an hour in between her shooting shows. I had hundreds of pairs of jeans. I was wearing a leather jacket that was almost sopping wet by the time I was done shooting with her. And I had the driest, like I had no skin left because I was so like... You wanted her to look great. Well, I was like, if I don't get her in the right jeans, I don no skin left because I was so, like... You wanted her to look great.

Well, I was like, if I don't get her in the right jeans, I don't have a career. I mean, I will be off the planet Earth pretty much. Right. But it all worked out pretty well. Wow. Yeah, that one did a lot for me. Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

What was the biggest thing you learned about that experience? What was the biggest thing I learned about working with Oprah? Because I got to work with her a few times after that as well. I think the thing that I most admire about her, and I definitely admired about that show, was the leadership that she showed to that entire team. The Harpo team, I've never seen a more organized, more well-oiled machine. Everybody understood their position, and everybody stayed however late they needed to be there. To make it great.

To make it great. There was no such thing as mediocre. Even when it came to the styling, Oprah was like, if you don't get that aha, that aha moment where people's eyes start to sparkle, you don't get that aha, that aha moment where people's eyes start to sparkle and they look at themselves and you can see how much they're feeling themselves, we're not putting it on air. Wow. And it was something that taught me that that's what I have to look for in clients, in other people that we had on What Not To Wear, on when I did Love, Lust, or Run. All of those shows require the same thing because- It's all transformation, right?

It's transformation, but even more than that, it's realization. And it's recognition. It's about somebody being able to see themselves differently in such a quick and visceral way that they believe something different about themselves. That's power. That's huge power. Huge. believe something different about themselves. And that's power. That's huge power. That's power that you don't expect from fashion. But that's why I try always to distinguish fashion from style. What's the difference? Well, fashion is an industry. It's an industry that's

built on insecurity. It runs on insecurity. It makes its money based on telling you that you're not good enough and you need a better mascara. Interesting. But style is about an individual. It's about an individual wanting to express who they are. And it really starts with an individual's self-awareness. The more self-awareness you have, the better your style is going to be a true representation of what you want others to see about you. What if you don't know what your style is? Or you're like, I'm not sure.

I'm not into fashion. I don't get it. Right. I mean, you don't have to get fashion to have style. So that's the first thing. Okay. You're talking to a guy that just wore sneakers my whole life until like two years ago. Yeah, I know. Okay, fair. And now you're talking to a girl who always wore high heels and now only wears sneakers. So one of the things that I would say about that, how do you get into it? Well, the first thing that I tell people to do is the most uncomfortable thing you could possibly think of, which is to stand or sit, if you feel lightheaded, naked in front of a mirror. And you got to take it all in. And it's sort of like watching yourself watch yourself. In other words, a lot of women in particular, we are sociobiologically wired, this is lizard brain, to care more about what we look like than men. Right.

Right? It's part of how we, it's mating. It's everything. It's like, you know, finding the right mate. Attracting. Yes, exactly. mate. Attracting. Yes, exactly. So women, just generally speaking, have a lot more emotion attached to the way that they look. So the first thing that I ask women to do specifically is to really look at what the raw material is that they're dealing with. And you can look at it and

say, God, my boobs are awesome. And my ass is the worst. You can use all the pejoratives. You can say how much you hate parts of your body, how much you love parts of your body, but you have to keep doing it until the emotion associated with it burns away. Until you know, no matter, it doesn't matter anymore. So you can say, oh, okay, I love my boobs and I hate my ass, which means I'm going to start wearing clothes that showcase my boobs. And instead of hiding my ass, which implies shame and I don't believe in hiding, you consciously camouflage the things you don't love. But if you don't know what you love and hate about your body, you're never going

to dress it right because you'll be, if you avoid all the things that you don't like what you love and hate about your body, you're never going to address it right. Because you'll be, if you, you know, avoid all the things that you don't like, I guarantee you, you will dress in a way that shows people that's exactly what you don't like about yourself. Interesting. Yeah. You have to manage your own self-loathing in order for it to be something other than what people see. to be something other than what people see. Right, right. Wow, I love it.

Now, I'm curious. Here's some facts I learned about you. Oh, boy. You suffered with psoriasis as a kid, right? Oh, yeah. I got psoriasis. It's an autoimmune skin disease. I got it when I was four.

It was just like little bumps behind my ears. It felt like chicken skin. And it wasn't until I had strep throat like something, some insane amount of times. It was like 18 times in one year. And of course, this was like back in the Stone Age when they had no idea that strep throat had such an impact on autoimmune diseases. I literally woke up one morning completely covered. In psoriasis. In psoriasis from my neck down all over my scalp my neck down, all over my scalp, and my entire body. I was 11.

Now, I dated a girl about five, six years ago who has severe psoriasis. One of the most beautiful women I've ever dated, but she would have these breakouts. And it would be all over her back, all over her face, you know, everywhere. And I saw it affect her emotionally. It affected her confidence, you know, everywhere. And I saw it affect her emotionally. It affected her confidence, you know. She was so beautiful. Like, her skin was so amazing, but it also would break out when she would have, like, any sickness or anything like that. Yeah.

Or any stress would come out. Well, the interesting thing about autoimmune diseases and psoriasis in particular is that you can only inherit a genetic predisposition to the disease. You don't inherit the disease. Something emotionally or literally physically traumatic has to happen in order for it to cause it. So that could be you're in an auto accident, you get a terrible cut, or your grandfather dies. It could be any one of those things that would create the perfect storm, so to speak. So when I was 11, that perfect storm really happened. 18 times a strep throat will cause that, I guess, huh?

Yeah. And anybody in the medical industry, you know, you would think they would be like, geez, maybe we should just take out our tonsils. But nobody came to that conclusion. And so I wound up doing a lot of different things to combat the psoriasis. I did light treatments. I did coal, tar, bath treatments. Did you do the steroid cream? I did tons of steroid creams. That's where it finally started to work was when I was like slathering steroids all over my skin. In about three months, it finally started to clear up. It was amazing. Except that then my skin started to thin because nobody told me that

that's what steroids do. So then my skin started splitting like a zipper. So I have these deep scars because I didn't know what was happening. I mean, I didn't know how to fix it or stop it. And because I was so afraid that the psoriasis would come back if I stopped using the steroids. So you just kept using it. And then I wound up having to go to a neurologist to make sure that that amount of steroids hadn't affected my brain. So far, nobody's been able to come up with any conclusive evidence. That's why you're this way. No, okay. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So you had the psoriasis as a kid, but you also struggled with binge eating, anorexia, and weight issues, right?

Yep. Until when? Well, they're all related. Sure. One of the things, there are a lot of comorbidities associated with a disease like psoriasis. Yeah. I really feel for the woman that you dated. Yes.

And I've been a spokesperson for psoriasis for a very long time because it is so emotionally damaging with no real physical ramifications except the embarrassment of it. So I say this all the time that it's a disease that you can't die from, but you sometimes wish you could because it's so awful. So a lot of people who wind up with psoriasis are shut-ins. They don't go out a lot. They're not very social. They have heart problems. They don't move a lot. Obesity is a comorbidity because they just are depressed.

Depression is a huge, huge comorbidity of psoriasis. And so I pretty much suffered from all of those things. psoriasis. And so I pretty much suffered from all of those things. Um, I think my, my self image and my ability to see myself was so, um, marred by having a skin disease that it sort of, even after the disease was gone, there was no way for me to see myself differently. Right. Um, still thought a part of it. Right. I took me a long time to be able to wear a t-shirt or shorts or a skirt because I was just so afraid of what would happen. I get it. I get it because I used to not be able to read and write when I was in middle school

and high school. And every time the teacher would ask me to read in front of the class, I couldn't do it. And so still today sometimes when someone's like, read aloud, I'm like, I kind of I kind of don't want to, even though I'm able to now, but it's like, no, you have all of it. Right. I don't believe that those kinds of scars go away. I believe that you learn to live alongside of them. You embrace it. You embrace them. And you kind of, you just, you're like, Hey, you're there. You know, Elizabeth Gilbert wrote that book, big magic, and I've been reading it. And one of the things that she says is you know she talks to fear

like all right you can come with me but you're not allowed to drive and you maybe you can touch the radio but you're never going to steer um it's about having a conversation with i love how she talks about that too about like talking to fear and saying okay i need you in this situation because there's a tiger chasing right it's good for. Or it's a dark alley and maybe I should listen to you, but I'm giving a presentation, I've done this a million times, like I don't need you right now. Right. I've got this.

You know what I mean? Right, and being able to, I think, sort out the difference. Yes. I think for me there was a lot of struggle between feeling absolutely buried with insecurity and just unable to claw my way out of it, and then overcompensating by being somewhat egotistical and narcissistic and, I would even say, a bully to make up for it. And one of the things you kind of learn as a grown-up, I think, is that a lot of the defense mechanisms that you needed to survive as a child psychologically no longer suit the person that you are. And yet it's very hard to shed them.

So how were you able to shed them? Well, I think I still am. I mean, you know, almost. Right, right, right. I think that, you know, I try, I had to learn a lot of things about myself in order to kind of see, you know, be able to connect the dots backwards for myself. I think the biggest thing was that I took my insecurity and for whatever reason, I just, I poured all of it into fashion because fashion was fancy and perfect and sparkly. And if I could be in fashion, I could be beautiful and cool. And I got there and it, you know, I mean, aside from the fact that by that time I was, I had, when I was hired for Vogue, I was severely anorexic. I was, I'm five seven. I was about 90 pounds. And then, um, And then in a year at Vogue, I doubled my weight.

So I was 180 and a size 16. And thank God that's when grunge came in. So I could just wear oversized plaid shirts and I was good. I looked great. But it was like there was like this kind of self-sabotage involved that I didn't really believe that I deserved to be there. And I learned from all these incredible photographers, all these great editors and stylists. I learned how to style people, other people in pictures and make them look fantastic. That was the skill set I learned. When I was an editor at Mademoiselle, I think that was probably when I finally lost

weight. I was rocking out some pretty hard fashion. And I have never been more narcissistic or materialistic than I was in that time period. And I thought that was what I was supposed to be. I thought that was part of the job. You've probably seen other people in that position be the same way, right? You're mimicking other people who were successful in those positions. And who were super skinny and always super skinny and there's a lot of rich people who work in fashion. Exactly. So I guess I was kind of mimicking to fit in, in a way. But when I got fired, it was interesting. I started styling

all sorts of people, more for commercials, even for banks. I did a Hi-C commercial and all sorts of things. Hi-C, what is that? Hi-C was, oh God, you're so young. Is this the fruit drink? It was a fruit drink. It's like Tang. Oh, I see.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember this. Yeah, the commercial. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it went out of business a while ago. But anyway, age is also something I don't have a problem with. But what I wound up realizing was that I was getting really bored of styling. And I guess maybe because of that, you know, you sort of put that out in the universe and something is bound to come back to you if you're looking for it. Right.

And What Not to Wear is what came sort of boomeranging back. And the reason that that show wound up being so important, I think, is because every skill that I had, including my own emotional insecurity skill set, came into play when I went to work to dress other people on camera. Because you were able to work with their emotions, with their insecurities. Because you've been there, done that, and you know how to guide them through the process, right? Well, no. It was more that I had to learn how to do that on air.

I had to learn to be more compassionate with people that I saw loathing themselves. And what wound up happening along the way was that I had to learn to be more compassionate with myself if I was really going to be a truth talker to other people. You kind of can't talk the talk and then not walk the walk. Although there have been many times where I have felt like I'm a fraud because I can't give advice without saying I'm still in the trenches. Almost there. without saying I'm still in the trenches. And I... You're almost there.

Almost. But then I had this great Tai Chi instructor once named DJ, who's like a skinny Sidney Poitier. And we were doing a Tai Chi class together. And he was like, you're not in flow. You know, all of your moves, you're fighting the universe. You're fighting. And I think I broke down in tears.

And I was about to go on a book tour. And I'd gained weight and here I'd been telling people like don't care about your size if you don't like being a 12 get a sharpie and cross out the one and you're a two ta-da you know and here I was like I don't want to be a 12 I want to be a two and I don't want a sharpie and he said um we teach what we need to learn. And so being able to do that, being able to have that kind of affirmation allows me to do what I do and be very sincere with the people that I'm working with. And at the same time know that I'm still working on myself. Yeah. So what are some things that you do and that you also recommend others do who maybe have some insecurities about whatever, their weight, their style, just themselves as a person, to feel more confident every day, to feel more sexy, to feel more whole and complete?

Yeah. What are some things you do plus what would you recommend others do on a daily basis? Like what would you do? Well, okay. So there's a couple of things that I would say about that. I mean, it's very funny that you bring this up because last night, um, I had dental surgery and I was in a lot of pain and I had sort of like ice packs all over my face and I was kind of lying there waiting for the Met Gala to start so I

could criticize other people's outfits. But, um, but I was watching this movie. I don't know if you ever saw it called Transamerica. Felicity Huffman plays a man who is transitioning to be a woman. And what was so amazing about the film, I forgot how absolutely amazing she is in it. But one of the things that she does before she actually has the operation, and she's still dressing like a woman, she's taken all the hormones, she's had all of the reconstructive surgery except for the below bed. And this is about her journey to get to that operation. But she wears this pink silk nightgown and has long pink nails and looks at herself in the mirror every night before she goes to bed and goes, good night, pretty. And it really struck me because she didn't have a family that accepted her in this film. She didn't have friends. She was close to her therapist, which

doesn't even count, right? I mean, if you're not close to your therapist, then your therapist isn't really a good therapist. But, you know, she was really the only person fighting for her identity, for her truth. And so to be able to say good night or good morning pretty to yourself, really, all of a sudden, it really hit me last night how important that is to do. of a sudden, it really hit me last night how important that is to do. And it's important to treat yourself as well as possible. Self-care is very hard for somebody like me. I've had all of these- What does self-care include? Getting massages?

Absolutely. It includes getting massages, eating well, working out. And that's not because you should be anorexic. It's to be healthy and happy and get your endorphins going. Yes, any clear stress. Exactly, exactly. And also learn to manage stress. It's why I learned to meditate, which I found really very helpful,

not only in sort of managing stress, but also in my ability to sort of understand my own roadblocks and to be able to communicate them better. That like takes a little bit of time and thought. So I do believe in that, but I also believe in wearing like bright clothes instead of black when you're having a fat day. And I believe in wearing sparkles and I believe in, you know, buying yourself a cheap, awesome red lipstick, if that's what it's going to take to put you in a better mood. I believe in treating yourself, but that's with the kindness that for me, I was always able to eventually show others, right? It's much harder to do, I think, on ourselves. I think we are much harder

on ourselves than we are on other people. Why is that, you think? From all the experiences you've had with people, why do you think it is that way? If you're me, maybe I should just speak from my experience. I always felt like an alien. I always felt like I'm not like other people, right? There's something wrong with me. I have a skin disease. I am double jointed pretty much everywhere. I have lashes in my tear ducts. You have a gray streak. I have a gray streak that came from the same time that I got severe psoriasis when I was 11. And so I always felt different. I always felt um this is a weird way to describe it but I felt

very hollow as a person and that I was always putting on masks that I was always sort of um adapting to my environment and trying to be whatever I thought everybody wanted me to be what was the mask you show um it depended on where I was. I mean, literally, like a chameleon, I could go from that color of the wall to this color coaster. And I did that. And it's funny because it's why I don't have a lot of memories of my 20s, I'm pretty sure. Really? I was so busy trying to be somebody else that it was really hard for me to be me. Now, there's a lot of reasons for that.

And I don't know that everybody relates to that on the level that I've experienced it. That's probably like my own family history and some of the ways that I was brought up. But I do think that most people have an inverse sense of narcissism, which is that I'm not good enough. I'm never going to be good enough. I'm not like everybody else. Instead of thinking, I'm the best. I'm so great. Everybody's like, I'm the best. I'm so great. I'm faking it. Right. But it's the opposite. We have this incredible ability to focus on ourselves in the most negative terms possible. And I think, you know, look, I think the part of that is based on the culture in which we live. You know, part of what's happened to that lizard brain, which was about,

are you fit? Oh, I'll mate with you because you can run away from a saber-toothed tiger, is now about, oh, how expensive are your pants? Like, do you have money? Do you have a G5? oh, how expensive are your pants? Like, do you have money? Do you have a G5? Is that why I'm going to date you? You know, I mean, it's the same, the same mechanism in our brain is at work, but now we're surrounded by advertising and distractions everywhere. And so many people trying to make money selling us things we may or may not need, you know, that our perception of ourselves changes. And when we have a culture that prizes youth and wealth and beauty more than anything else, that's going to fuck a lot of people up. Excuse me. Yeah. What do you think is the best way to go about it then? Should we be

talking to ourselves in a way that is negative to ourselves, positive to ourselves. Like you say, most people are saying the negative ego as opposed to the overly egotistical. Right. But is that positive if you're like, I'm the greatest in the world? No, I mean, it's because it's ludicrous. You know what I mean? It's like nobody's the greatest in the world and nobody's the worst in the world, as it turns out. It took me a long time to realize that. When I started What Not To Wear, I was so self-conscious about being on

camera. I was like, what am I doing here? But I was like, don't make fun. Okay. I'm the expert. Don't make fun of me. I would not joke around. I took my job so seriously. And every time somebody would like take a jab at me and try and be funny, I got like really rigid. And it took me a long time to laugh at myself. I didn't realize that that was such a plus that I would actually enjoy life so much more if I wasn't trying to, I was like, I have to be perceived as an expert. Experts like don't make fun of an expert, right? Who doesn't make fun of experts? And I guess maybe it's because I was worried that I didn't have enough experience. Or when I started in television, you know, the entire fashion industry really looked down on TV. You know, my leaving print.

Like the magazine world was the prestigious. Yes, upper echelons. Oh, you're just like a TV snob now or something. Well, no, not even. They were like, oh. Below us. Yeah, poor you. You failed.

Yeah. Right, right. So, you know, here I took a. Yeah. Poor you. You failed. Yeah. Right, right. So, you know, here I took a chance on an industry that really wasn't about fashion. And now the print is almost like obsolete. Yeah. Print is dead. But television is almost obsolete. Right, right.

You know, now it's all about digital. And digital has created a very different relationship than the one that I had with my audience. My audience doesn't really know what to do with a how-to show anymore, a what-not-to-wear variety. Nobody needs to see an hour worth of process. You can go online and type into Google, you have 50 ways to tie a scarf. You don't need me to tell you. So in that regard, I think that things have changed a lot.

And then bloggers are sort of the babies of reality television stars, right? They're the ones who changed culture. I like to say that the change in culture went from a how-to culture to a me too culture. We all want to be reaffirmed in the notion that our experience is something that we can share with someone else, that somebody relates to us. Not that somebody is teaching us, but that somebody understands the way we feel. And that's, I think, the way millennials communicate. Yeah, I love it. A few more questions. I'm curious about who do you believe was the one that raised you when you were growing up? You mentioned your stepmom. Yeah. But who was the one who you feel like raised you and you also learned the most from? I'm going to go with my mom.

I mean, you know, technically, my parents got divorced right around the time I got psoriasis. I'm not saying they're related. Um, but technically my mom had custody of us, even though I did see my father very regularly. Um, and for better or for worse, my mom was quite the personality herself. Uh, so I would say being raised by her was a little bit tricky for me. Um, only in that I was very intimidated by her growing up she she i would say that she she is the closest thing to true genius i've ever seen really she's a venture capitalist right she was a venture capitalist but not not when when she when she got divorced she had a master's in community health.

That's what she had going for her. And she parlayed that into a job in magazines and then parlayed that into a job into venture capital. She taught herself the Harvard Law curriculum. She could play piano the first time she sat down in front of the instrument. in front of the instrument. I mean, she was kind of a savant and also kind of a bitch and like really scary sometimes. She was like a real yeller

and she was scary. And there's this very funny part of me that wanted, when I was little, I just, I wanted to be just like her. I just, I wanted to be a badass like her. I wanted to be good at everything like her. She could draw Alaska freehand. I remember when I was doing a report on Alaska.

She just drew it. I can't even imagine what Alaska looks like in my head right now. It was really hard. I mean, I don't know how she did it. So, you know, she was all these kind of wonderful, amazing, larger than life, incredible things. And at the same time, you know, there's a lot about my mom that as a child, I couldn't understand. And, you know, she was angry, I think, and she was unhappy. And I don't know that, you know, divorce was the best situation for her. I don't know that trying to raise two girls by herself was so easy. I think there was a lot going on with her during that time.

And so, you know, there was a huge part of me that wanted to be just like her. And then I got to an age where I was like, oh, I don't want to be like her. I don't want to be anything like her. I want to be like me. And by that time, it was a little late, and I was already a lot like her. So there's a lot of, like, re-navigation that had to happen. You're already a genius and a bitch, is what you're saying, then. Well, yeah.

No. I mean, I know. Well, I mean, I've never been called a genius. What's something you're really proud of that most people don't know about you? Or something you've done or something you're proud of that you only a handful of friends now. Well, I, you know what, the thing that comes to mind is, uh, is it was a realization that I had. Um, I was having a super hard time about five years into whatnot to where I was really unhappy.

I was unhappy on set. I didn't like anybody on the team. I was like always bitching about, you know, having to go to work. And I remember we were going back to maybe it was even season seven. And I was in the shower and I was just like, I can't go back. I don't want to go back. It's so monotonous. To the show. To the show. We're about to start a new season. And you're like, I'm done. Yeah, no, I was like, mentally, I was just like, and I was listing in my head all the people that I didn't want to see and how many people I didn't

like on the set. And then I was like, oh my God. And this hit me so hard that I had to sit down in the bathtub of the shower because I was like, the reason that this is so awful and the reason that this whole environment is so terrible is because I've made it a toxic environment. Wow. So you essentially were listing everyone there, but you were the common denominator of, interesting. So that was a big, that was like a heavy blow. I mean, seriously, like physically shook me. I wrote a lot of apology letters and I changed my environment. I changed the way I saw my job. I changed the way I acted towards people. I realized that when I was unhappy, I would forget that my reactions or the way that I would behave would have an effect on somebody else.

Because I didn't even think I was being seen. You were on the camera. Yeah. No, I know. I just kind of thought, well, you know, I'm here. But the minute that I changed my attitude, that I became a lot more positive and a lot more supportive. The entire game changed. Wow. What do you think it took for you to get to that realization?

I don't know. A really warm shower at the beginning of season seven. I'm not, I don't know. Sometimes I think you come to things when you come to them. You know, I think I had been through a romantic relationship where I had taken a lot of the blame that wasn't mine to own. And I started being able to understand the difference between keeping your side of the street clean and expecting somebody else to keep their side of the street clean. And all of a sudden, I realized that that applies generally in life to everything. everything. You have talked a lot about giving your best and what that means and doing the best that you can at any given time. What I realized is that my best sometimes isn't about a big action or something super charitable or kind. It's about being quiet and observant and maybe great in smaller ways. Being present or just being joyful.

Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Neither one of those things, being present or being joyful, is easy. No. It really isn't. I mean, life is not set up to be a walk in the park. Right.

It's probably not fun if it is. There's no challenge, right? Well, I don't know. If you already... I mean, we would have no way of knowing. It's never been a walk in the park as far as I can tell, historically speaking. Right, exactly. But I do think that we are, in so many ways, the world is so screwed up right now, right?

And then in so many ways, I think there's all this kind of beauty coming to the fore because you have an entire generation of people who are starting to think differently about the world and about themselves. And it's starting with an individual actually does have a ripple effect into a community and communities have a ripple effect into organizations and organizations have a ripple effect into, you know, places all over the world. And it's the first time that we're sort of connecting those dots. So as far as we've come technologically, I think in a lot of ways we're finally spiritually kind of connecting. And I don't mean that in a religious sense.

I mean that in a humanist sense. Interesting. sense. I mean that in a humanist sense. Interesting. If I was able to give you enough money to solve one challenge or one problem in the world, I was like, here's a lump sum. However much it takes, it's going to solve and cure something. What would you put that money towards? Low self-esteem. I mean, I could say I'd love to cure cancer, but I think that- Low self-esteem maybe causes a lot of cancer for people too. Exactly. It also causes depression and suicide and all sorts of things.

But I just forget about the extremes of all of that, right? Low self-esteem. If somebody felt just that little bit better about themselves every day, imagine what they could do. Imagine the things that people don't do because they're afraid or they're ashamed. And if you could get rid of fear and shame in someone and make them value themselves more, I feel like they would be unstoppable. How can we do that ourselves without the money?

Yeah, it's a really good question. Yeah, we'll have to figure it out. Yeah, well, I'm hoping you come up with a book that, you know, school of... How do you increase your self-esteem? Right, school of fear and shame. Right, right. But, you know, I do think... Do you think style helps with increasing self-esteem, though, or are there other elements of this?

Yes, I do. And I think I would like to say that I am one of the pioneers of at least talking about it in that way. It's the mechanism for helping the process. I'm not a psychologist. I can only lend my experience, my life experience, to what I know to be true and the conversations that I've had with people about how they feel. What I love about style is that it is the quickest, fastest, easiest way for somebody to see themselves differently because it's based on what you see, right?

And that triggers the brain in a really funny way. It doesn't take months to transform health or something else. You can do it in 10 minutes. Exactly. Whereas changing your diet and starting an exercise regime, a lot of the time feels punishing. Daunting. Right. Style doesn't have to feel that way.

It's a quick fix. I like to think of it not as a quick fix like I'm just going to to have the shot of heroin and then, you know, I'm going down the wrong path and not doing anything. I like to think of it as a shortcut to believing that you can do other things. I mean, I can't tell you, there are so many stories from What Not to Wear that it was never about what happened on the show. It's what happened to these people after, you would leave bad marriages. They would have better relationships with their kids. They would get promoted. They would leave bad jobs. They thought so differently about what they were able to accomplish based on the fact that they just didn't think they could even rock a short haircut. Right. That's cool. A couple of final questions. I'm curious, what are you most grateful for in your life recently?

Oh, God, I'm grateful for so many things in my life recently. That's a really hard one. I mean, I'm... It's hard, but you're grateful for it? Yeah. What's a few things? Well, I mean, I'm grateful for where I am in my life. I don't know if that makes any sense. I feel like I just finished shooting Love, Lust, Run. It was canceled three seasons.

And it's not like I'm surprised by that. But every time I leave a show or a show gets canceled or something else happens, I feel like it means that the next phase is coming. And I'm not done. And I don't know whether it's, it's the almost thing again. I don't know whether I'm not done means television. I, I don't know what it means. I don't know whether it's, it's a book or a speech or I don't know what it is, but it makes me feel like I'm at the beginning of a cycle. And I'm very grateful for that because there's a lot of fear that surrounds that, that you have to kind of face head on. And then there's a lot of anticipation and I can, now I even feel myself glowing. It's glowing. So, so I guess there's a couple of things, you know, I think there's still more for me to do. But now I'm feeling, I do feel this incredible, the weight of responsibility that does come with age.

There's a couple of things that I feel really strongly about is that I hate that our society is ageist in a lot of ways. I hate that that applies more for women than for men. I hate that that applies more for women than for men. And that we're somehow, if we're not having kids, we're somehow not useful. Because biologically, we're not useful. You don't have any kids? I don't have any kids. I did have a lot of cats who were all raised very well, albeit codependent. And I'm trying now not to have pets and do more things.

I think having cats in particular made me an introvert. Just want to snuggle at home and be with the cats. Right. And cats don't really go out. So I found myself home a lot. And now that I don't have cats, I try and be a little bit more adventurous, do things more on a whim. And I don't have cats, I try and be a little bit more adventurous, do things more on a whim. And I don't feel like this pull or this guilt about leaving my little Furbies behind. So that's a big thing. But I also, I do feel like there is this, I do feel a certain responsibility in terms of figuring out why our society is so ageist when age is revered around the world right even wisdom wisdom experience knowledge yes why that why we've

taken that so for granted why we raise our kids to think they know better than us you know i mean granted obviously you have tectonic shifts like digital, and now every generation going forward is not going to understand what a rotary phone was. But still, you know, those things... So it was a rotary phone? Yeah, exactly. That's great. Okay, then. Anyway, I still remember my rotary phone from my childhood.

It was yellow. It was on the wall. I still remember that phone number. It's very weird. Anyway, my point is that I want age to be revered in the same kind of context that we revere youth and wealth and beauty. So I very much like to do a public pro-aging campaign of some kind. That's something that's super important to me. And then I do also feel a huge responsibility to lift other women up, younger women, who I can either help mentor or support or executive produce something for, because

I didn't feel that way. When I was growing up, I was raised by a frontline feminist, but it was very much this very combative sense of only one of you can win. I was always competing with my girlfriends rather than all ships rise together. Collaborating. Yes, and so I feel very, very strongly about collaboration in a way that I never did as growing up. And, you know, that's paying it forward, I think. Yeah, that's cool. This is one of the final questions I'll ask everyone.

It's the three truths. Oh, shit. So this is no prep for you. No, no, no, no pressure. So it's the end of, it's many, many years from now. It's the last day for you. No pressure. So it's the end of, it's many, many years from now. It's the last day for you. And everything, every video you've ever put out there,

TV show, book, has all been erased. Okay. And everyone's there and they ask you, well, we want to know what your three truths are. Here's a piece of paper and a pen.

Write down the three things that you know to be true about everything you've experienced. That'll kind of be like our lesson book for remembering your wisdom. So what would you say your three truths are about what you've experienced in life? I would say, I think the first thing I would say is that life has no meaning unless you infuse it with meaning. And that is sort of the purpose of life is that it exists, this energy, you know, whether we're here being animated by it or it's out in the universe, it's objective.

You know, part of having consciousness is to give meaning to what we can do with it. I know I told Nick this, that when I was like eight years old, I said to my mom, like, I don't get it. I don't get it. Like, why, what's, what, how do we make meaning? Why is life supposed to be meaningful? And she was like, you have to decide that it is. And so for me, it was the sense, like, I really felt like I was like, oh, I have to like inject myself with meaning. You know, like, I don't know why that image came to mind. That's weird. But, um, I wasn't like swallow a pill. It was like, no, definitely use a hypodermic needle, but maybe it hits the bloodstream faster. That's probably what it is, but that you, and that

you do have to find that meaning for yourself, that it's different for every person. And that's the quest of living. I think besides that, I would say I've also learned give as much love as you can. And the reason is really a selfish one, is that the more love you give, the less possible it is to isolate. is that the more love you give, the less possible it is to isolate. And it really is hard to be great or your best self in a vacuum. There's no one around to hear you fall if you're a tree. Right. And the third thing, I think, is to be kind even to people that you don't like.

That's powerful. I like those three. Those are great. Before I ask the final question, where can we connect with you online? Where do you hang out the most? I don't really, you know, I mean, I'm old. It's not like, I mean, I'm on Instagram. Snapchat.

I'm on Snapchat. I'm on Twitter. And I do, I try to answer questions on Twitter, but more like, should I wear this shirt or that shirt? Because it's only 140 characters. I am active on my Facebook page now more than I have been before, and I'd like to start doing Facebook Live so that I can really answer questions. I've been told I should do that on Periscope, too. You guys should do more on Facebook Live.

Get her on there. Yeah, you should. Get her on there. Yeah, off camera, Nick is being told that he should do more Facebook Live with me. Yes. Yeah. So Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat. Yeah, you know, like, yeah.

I mean, I'm not on Periscope. Nah. But, I mean, has that panned out, really? Has Periscope? It hasn't. Okay, so. For some, but it's kind of dying, yeah. And then your website

right and i'm not on vine and i don't have a website no website but you have a book i do i have two books um i've dressed your best that i co-wrote with clinton kelly which is basically color forms for body types it's just what shapes it's geometry yes what shapes look great on what body type all different heights, all different shapes. That is a primer. Um, and you had asked me this before and somehow I got away from this question. What do you do when you don't know what your style is? Start with your body type. Um, that's what looking at yourself naked is about. Once you can get rid of the judgment and say, okay, I'm a pair or whatever it is. I carry all my weight in my hips. Go buy dress your best and look up what to do about carrying your weight in your bottom half.

And you'll see what kind of shapes you will look good in. And then you can start experimenting with what colors you like. And, you know, the idea isn't to feel like there's this pressure to look like somebody else. Comparison is the thief of joy and is definitely the thief of confidence. So I like to think of style as self-exploration. And you should take as much time as you need to figure out what makes you look and feel your best. And also to be aware. Again, self-aware.

What's appropriate in a given situation? What's age appropriate, you know, all of the things that sort of do come to bear on the way other people see you. Right, right. Because your style is sort of like a business card. That's it. It's the first thing people will make a judgment about you in the first three seconds that they meet you. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that's very important. Then I wrote a book about the psychology of style, which is called The Truth About Style. And that's more what I talked about with you today. And the reasons that people get in their own way when it comes to dressing their best and feeling their best, the fear and the shame, the stuff that is really what we encounter every day. the stuff that is really what we encounter every day. And sometimes we think it and we don't even recognize what disservice we do to ourselves. Yeah.

Okay. Somebody said to me when I was doing The Truth About Style, she was a plus-size African-American woman who wanted to be a fashion blogger. And she said, I'm not white and I'm not a size zero. I don't fit in at any of these conventions. And I said, well, why can't you be the first? Why can't you be the first editor-in-chief of Vogue? Why can't you be the first to do something that's never been done before? So, you know, it's something to keep in mind if you feel like you can't or you're not like everybody else and there's no way for you to fit in. Maybe the whole point is you don't have to. Zing. That's good. Before I ask the final question, I want

to acknowledge you, Stacey, for your beautiful soul. I think your soul is so beautiful and how you constantly make people feel great. Even when you're not talking about style, but when you show up, you show up with so much love and joy that people, their self-esteem gets higher. So just you being in the world is really powerful for everyone else that you're around. So I want to acknowledge you for that. Thank you, Lewis. I don't know if nick always agrees because sometimes i'm grumpy with him but not but you know it's more like i'm whiny not grumpy i'm whiny and i also want to acknowledge you for aggro he calls me aggro muffin yeah yeah i also want to acknowledge you for your youthful soul thank you and that you're not letting like age or whatever like hold you back from really experiencing the world at its fullest.

I feel like I've seen too many people, too many women do that, and I just refuse. Yeah, it's great. You know, it is interesting, and I know we really do probably need to wrap it up, but in the last three months or something, I have had, like, a lot of physical ailments. I broke toes. I had to get my toes operated on. I, I, I had dental surgery, like up the wazoo, uh, you know, every, like I had my, my arthritis kicked in, like all of this stuff. And I realized, um, in a conversation with somebody a couple of days ago, how exhausting pain can be. Um, but I do not want to be one of those people who's like old before their

time. I just don't. And when I'm old, I still want to be young. You know, I still like when I'm really old. And now that we're all going to live to be 150 anyway, I'm relatively young. So there's that. And I don't, you know, it's funny. Because I didn't get married and because I don't have kids, I don't hang out with a lot of my friends consistently who are my age, who are married and have kids, because there's only so many times I can watch them do gymnastics or whatever. Right, because it's a soccer practice. So a lot of my friends who are single are younger.

Yeah. And in a lot of ways, I think that that just keeps me younger to begin with. That's cool. Awesome. So final question, Stacey, what's your definition of greatness? That's a really hard question. I think that the definition of greatness is living your life to its best potential. I mean, whatever potential you have inside yourself is realizing it. And that doesn't mean you have to do everything or fix everything or anyone. But I feel like each individual is so special. We're this amazing arrangement of atoms.

And there's nobody like you else in the world. And there will never be anybody like you else in the world. like you else in the world, and there will never be anybody like you else in the world. So whatever potential you can realize of yourself, that is greatness. That is making the most of everything that has been given to you. That expression, much has been given to you, much is expected of you. I think the universe expects us to be great, to recognize our potential and be as great as we can be. I love it. Stacey London, make sure you guys go check out her book.

Is it in the shot here? Make sure to check this out, The Truth About Style. Yeah, I look like the Duchess of Windsor here, which is sort of unintentional. I love it. Check it out. Stacey, I love you. There you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Again, Stacey's become a great friend of mine. So if you enjoyed this, make sure to let her know by tweeting her, sending her a message over on Snapchat or on Instagram. And you can connect with her and find out all of her links back at lewishouse.com slash 327. And if you enjoyed this, please share this with your friends. Post it on Twitter, on Facebook. Let them know about this interview. And also check out the full video on YouTube or going back to lewishouse.com to watch it there. And let me know what you thought about this interview.

What's the biggest thing you learned about yourself during this interview? The biggest thing you learned about fashion and style, and share that in the comment section below on the blog post or on the YouTube channel. Thank you guys so much for all that you do to support the School of Greatness podcast. You are incredible, and we could not do this without you. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Bye.