The School of Greatness - 341 Elizabeth Gilbert on Creating Big Magic and Staying Grounded

Episode Date: June 13, 2016

"Never let your greatness get in the way of your goodness." - Elizabeth Gilbert If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/341

This is episode number 341 with number one New York Times best-selling author Liz Gilbert. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now, let the class begin. It is not our achievements that make life meaningful. It is the precious moments along the journey that bring us meaning. Welcome everyone to this special edition of the School of Greatness podcast. I am currently in Buenos Aires, Argentina, playing in the Pan American Championships

with the United States Men's National Handball Team representing the USA, and I'm having an incredible time. We've played a couple games so far, and we've got a few more to go. time. We've played a couple games so far, and we've got a few more to go. And I've always gone after big dreams and big goals in my life. And earlier in my life, I used to get so disappointed if I never achieved them or if I lost a game or something got me off track. And I've learned to really take in all these precious moments. There's a goalie on our team named Danny who's been on the team for about 23 years. And he said, you know, some guys come and go on this team

and they get to wear the jersey and the USA across their chest one, maybe two times. You never know when your time is going to be up, when you're not able to play anymore or you don't get selected. And it just makes me really take in every single moment of this journey, of this trip, playing with the team, hanging out with the guys, you know, being physical in the game, doing whatever it takes to support my team and represent my country and represent my last name. And it's an incredible journey.

And I've learned to let go of the end result. You know, I am still very committed and focused on my dreams and my goals, and I want to reach them. Trust me, I want them badly. That's why I put so much time and energy and sacrifice into going after them. But I've learned to really enjoy and be present and be here right now. I think it's something we forget about so often is all of the moments along the journey, which take us towards our dreams, which take us towards our goals,

which take us to incredible relationships. It's the ups and downs. It's every single moment. So be here, be present, and be now in this moment. I am extremely excited about our guest, Liz Gilbert. She is an incredible human being. I'm so glad we got to finally connect and meet in person and record in the School of Greatness Studios in Los Angeles. What an incredible, loving, wonderful human being. And if you don't know who Liz is, in her early career, she worked as a journalist for publications like Spin and GQ and the New York Times Magazine. as a journalist for publications like Spin and GQ and the New York Times Magazine. And an article she wrote in GQ, I didn't know this, but an article she wrote in GQ about her experiences bartending on the Lower East Side eventually became the basis for

the movie Coyote Ugly, if anyone ever watched that movie, which I've watched a couple of times. I didn't know that was off of her article. And she has won multiple awards for her books. She just celebrated the 10-year anniversary for Eat, Pray, Love, which was a worldwide phenomenon. And she is now an internationally recognized author and speaker. She's been on Oprah's Super Soul Sessions. She's been on tour with Oprah. She's spoken all over the world. She's got a new book out called Big Magic. She's spoken all over the world.

She's got a new book out called Big Magic. She has got a lot going on. And, man, this was one of my favorite interviews to do. We just connected so well, and I loved listening to her. I could have kept going for hours. So I hope you get a lot out of this. And some of the main things we cover is why you should follow your curiosity instead of following your passion, which I thought was pretty interesting. Also, why it's so important to take a break from your work and have an off-season and the key to having the off-season.

Also talk about the best way to calm nerves before a big speech, which Liz has done many big speeches, so she's got some good advice there. The power of giving your attention versus getting attention. How Liz managed to stay so grounded through the success of Eat, Pray, Love. And the main thing she has in common with Oprah that my good buddy Rob Bell said she has in common with. That and so much more good stuff in this juicy episode. Make sure to share this out with your friends. If you're listening right now, click on the share button on your podcast app, on your iPhone or online, just click share or just tweet out lewishouse.com slash 341 to share this out with your friends and make sure to tag Liz as well

because this is going to support and inspire a lot of people. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, Liz Gilbert. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest. It's not Elizabeth, it's Liz Gilbert. Thanks for coming on. Hello, darling.

Good to see you. It's good to see you. I've been emailing you for about a year now, trying to make this happen. I was persistent enough finally made it happen totally ignored the restraining orders exactly didn't even sign when i served you papers it's amazing i just finally gave up and here i am and i'm super grateful exactly rob bell was like you've got to have liz on sometime about a year ago he's like you got to get her on and so i was like can you make the intro and so we made it happen so i'm

really glad you're here in the studio in la it It's awesome. Rob is our, is our shared brother. I know he's amazing. Yep. He's incredible. Uh, and you guys are doing a workshop tomorrow, actually, which will, this will be afterwards that it comes out. But, um, do you guys do a lot of work together, workshops and speeches? No, this is the first thing we've ever done. I mean, we've, we met on to drop a name on the Oprah tour. Oh, no big deal. Perhaps you've heard of her. And we hadn't known each other before that. So we did this eight-city stadium tour together where we were totally the youngest brother and sister on the family bus ride. Definitely.

And Amy Purdy was there too, right? No, Amy wasn't there. Oh, yeah, Amy Purdy. Yes, of course. Sorry, I was thinking of Amy Cuddy. Yeah, Amy was there. I just had her on thedy. Yes, of course. Sorry, I was thinking of Amy Cuddy. Yeah, Amy was there. I just had her on the other day. She's fantastic.

Yeah, she's great. Deepak was there. Amazing. El of his aunt. Just a bunch of all-stars. No big deal. It was fantastic. And I got to watch Rob eight times in a row give a speech that just –

Blew people away, right? I mean, you know what he does. He's amazing. Like just brought everyone up and then down and then back up. And then it was like just watching a conductor work with people's spirits. It was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. Yeah.

He's amazing. I had him speak at my book launch party. I had him open up for me. Uh-huh. And just at Wanderlust where you guys are going to be doing a workshop actually tomorrow. And it was like blew me away. That's so cool. And I'll be there on Tuesday night.

Are you going to be here Tuesday for his thing? No, no, you'll be gone. Okay, cool. Yeah. Anyways,

great guy. Um, but the first question I want to ask you, since you just asked me to ask you this, we were talking about competitiveness and you said, um, there's a difference between competitiveness and ambition. Right.

So can you talk about those? Yeah, because you were talking about being very competitive and I'm, I am actually not a competitor. I'm not a competitive person, but I'm a very ambitious person. It's taken me years to recognize how I discern a difference between those two words. And they are sometimes overlapping, but not always. I think it's rare to be one without the other.

But in my case, I'm definitely ambitious. So to me, competitive means I will beat you at everything from thumb wrestling to who can cross the street faster to who can drink this coffee faster to who can – whatever the thing is, I must – there is only one rule, which is what they – who is the horse that they used to say only had one rule, and that was that she had to win. That's it. That's the only rule of competitiveness, right? And ambition, which is interconnected, but can also be distinct means I will be the very highest possible version of myself that I can be. And it doesn't have that much to do with what anybody else is doing. You know, and so for me, the the ambition is what is the best writing that i can do and and that's why i don't spend a lot of time looking at it is nice if you can rankings you know yeah rankings and stuff it's you didn't look when you were like 10 years on the new york

times list it didn't you weren't looking at the list i was so happy when it first like when it first hit there but then no i didn't spend every Saturday morning opening up the, where am I now? Am I almost? And I wanted to – and it's also – yes, but that felt like a personal achievement. But I don't resent the person who then took my spot. When my time was over and somebody else became number one, I wasn't like, it kills me to see somebody else at that position besides me. I come from a really competitive family. it kills me to see somebody else at that position besides me you know i'm like that doesn't my heck i come from a really competitive family and i think from an early age i just felt like

this feels slightly dangerous to me um how much everybody cares about beating everybody at everything um i can't even join that this just feels like like too much work and too much at stake for everything. Like we're playing, you guys were playing old maid, right? Like it doesn't have to be a blood sport, you know, but, but it kind of was. Monopoly people are like, oh my God, you have no idea, Lewis, you know, like everything, you know? So I think I just opted out of, and I was more focused on, you know, what do I want to be and what do I want to become? And those ambitions extend for me beyond just my writing career and into sort of my personal ambitions for what kind of a person do I want to be. What if it's an athlete or someone that, you know, it's great to say, well, just be the best version of yourself and don't focus on winning. Focus on whatever, being the best.

But then you're losing all the time. That's not going to make you feel that great. If you're an athlete playing sport, there's a winner and a loser. You know what I mean? I would imagine if you are an athlete at a level where it matters, you will not be like me. You know what I mean? I mean, that's why I'm not an athlete. I mean, I would not suggest that anybody who has any skin in the game in any athletic endeavor approach life the way that I do.

Because what you need is to – I mean, look, I'll tell you, Lewis, I played sports. I was not bad at sports. I played sports all through high school. I was a letter winner from freshman year in three sports. And I loved the camaraderie in the teams. I loved being on the bus. I loved being outside in the weather. I loved being on the bus. I loved being outside in the weather. I loved all of it except the competitiveness of it.

And I remember vividly being in the end of a basketball game and just having this really existential thought. I was 15 years old and I remember thinking – just like booking up the court thinking, I truly do not understand why it matters which one of these teams wins. I literally do not understand. And all I could think was, if I went to Chippewa High School, the other school we were playing, all these girls would be my friends. So why do I care if I beat them? Because if I were born there, then I'd be playing against us. You do not want that person on your team, Lewis. against us, you do not want that person on your team, Lewis. Somebody who thinks like that is not a clutch player. That is not an athlete's way of thinking, unless you're a marathon. But even then, you want to win your marathon. So that's the moment at which I realized that athletic endeavor was probably not a future for me. Artistry was probably a better place.

Nor competitive writing is not either. It's about creating your best work. That's the idea. And the best work kind of rises to the top, essentially, hopefully, right? Well, and I do think this too. I think that my friend Sarah Jones, who's a performance artist who's won Tonys and she's fantastic, she has a beautiful way of expressing this that she said, at the beginning of any creative endeavor, there's a highway that I have to be on.

This is her words, not mine. I'm paraphrasing. She said, there's a highway that I have to be on to do this work. And along that highway, there's any number of detours. And any time I find myself asking questions such as, am I going to be able to win a Tony with this? Is my agent going to be able to sell this? Are people going to want this? Is the audience going to be able to sell this? Are people going to want this? Is the audience going to respond to this?

Is this the right kind of work? Is this what the market is calling for? Is that she said, all of those questions are detours off the highway that I need to be on. And any of those questions that I start asking myself at the beginning of a creative journey is going to take me right off that highway and into the same neighborhood every time. And that's a ghetto where they're going to take the hubcaps off my car and beat me and leave me for dead. Because it's going to leave

me asking the wrong questions. And the only question at the beginning of this creative endeavor is, does the thought of making this illuminate me, ignite me, make me feel like I can't wait to get up in the morning and give meaning to a life that is otherwise often very difficult? If the answer is yes, then I'm on the right road. And anything else and any other reason also puts you in, I think, hungry ghost category, which is when is it enough? I was number one New York Times bestseller for a year. If all I cared about in my life was being at the top,

there was a day that came when I wasn't that anymore. And that would have been a very bad day for me. Instead of me being like, this journey is amazing. And now what am I going to make? You know, when I wrote the book that came after Eat, Pray, Love, my book Committed, which I still really like, that book sold one one thousandth of the copies of Eat, Pray, Love. If I were somebody who only had to win and I saw that chart, that's a plot. I mean, that is a bad chart. Like that's the opposite of up and to the right. That's like a stark. And instead I was like, I like that book. I still like that book. And now what? Now what do I want to make? Because I think you can't stay there. You can't even get there.

You know, say I had this woman write to me, this young woman who said, I don't think I should be made to feel ashamed that I want to be, don't just want to be an actress. I want to be a great actress. I want to be a famous actress and I want to win awards. And I said, no one should make you feel ashamed for that. I wanted to all those things in writing. But just know that if that is your only motivation for doing this, satisfaction will never be in your hand. Because even if, let's take it to the top, even if you win an Oscar, what happens the next year when someone else does? Yeah.

Right? So let, sure, be ambitious, want everything, no problem. But if you don't have a sole reason to do it, you only have an ego reason to do it, then you're setting yourself up for a life of suffering where you will never have enough. Yeah. And someone will always be on your neck coming up behind you. Sure. And you will never know when to rest in contentment. And that just sounds like hell to me.

Yeah. It's interesting. I was listening to your interview with – or not interview, but your super soul sessions where you talked about discovering your passion and how you live the life of passion. You used to tell people passion, passion, go find it, go follow it, go pursue it. Um, and you said that there was a woman that wrote you a letter, talked about how she didn't just know her passion or her passion changes or, you know, it comes and goes. Um, can you talk about that in regards to what we were just covering? Yeah.

I mean, I've always had the great good fortune of knowing what I love. And I love writing. And so my life has been really simple. That's all I do. That's kind of a definition of a passion. Nice. I know. It makes your life really easy.

You knew what you wanted. I knew what I wanted. I liked it. I didn't really like anything else. You worked in magazines, right? Yeah. You wrote short stories. Very clear. It's like, this is it. Movies. Here what I wanted. I liked it. I didn't really like anything else. You worked in magazines, right? You wrote short stories. Very clear.

It's like, this is it. Here's the path. Everything else can take a number, right? Like that's always been really obvious to me. And so it's also been very obvious to me to go around telling people, just do that. Like, you know, that thing that you love more than anything, just do that. Right? Right?

Right? Like, it just seemed like the easiest. It seems like good advice and even kind advice. Right? And so after Eat, Pray, Love came came out i started kind of professionally saying that going on stages and telling people just find your passion do your passion passion passion and then one day i did an event in australia and when i got back there was a long letter on my wall on my facebook wall from a young woman who said you know i came i came to your event looking for

inspiration and i have to tell you i'm sitting alone in the dark in my room and I've never felt worse about myself than I feel right now because all I've been doing is trying to figure out what that thing is that you're talking about. And I'm telling you, I don't have one in the way that you define it as that thing that makes you feel like your hair is on fire, that you would sacrifice anything for. And it's not for lack of looking. It's not for lack of looking it's not for lack of people and people like you are constantly saying to people like me that this is the answer and i and i just feel like a loser and a failure and that i'm interested in a lot of things but nothing that i would die for nothing that i would give my whole life for so i know you didn't mean to

but you just made me feel like the biggest failure and loser in the world. And it was such a head turning thing for me, Lewis, because I was like, how many people have I done that to? You know? And I started thinking about all the people who I know and love and asking myself how many of them could truly say, as I can, that from the time they were like basically six, they had no question about what they were supposed to be doing with their lives. Not many people. Zero, statistically zero, maybe a couple,

but very few. Yeah. And everybody else I know, including people who I admire and who I go to when I'm broken down and I want advice, like I, everyone else's path has looked like a path through a carnival fun house, you know, like trick mirrors and trap doors and likehouse, you know, like trick mirrors and

trap doors and like, um, and, and trying this and it not quite working and trying that and doing this. And so I was realizing like we preach this passion thing in an almost fundamentalist way, you know, but, and I'm a jackhammer when I, there's something that I care about and want to do. I'm fully focused. But what if, what if everyone was, what a weird and boring world that would be right and so i've now sort of distinguished my mind between what i call jackhammers and what i call hummingbirds and

the hummingbirds are people who cross pollinate the world by just moving from field to field and pursuit and pursuit and taking ideas from one place and bringing them to another and mixing it up and they're not as they don't get as much attention and credit as jackhammers because they're not as loud as us, Lewis. That's true. Nothing louder than a jackhammer. That's true. Like once we get going, we sort of don't shut up.

Yeah. And hummingbirds, they're beautiful. So it was just this idea there's other ways to be. Yeah. You don't have to be the way that I am. Fit in a box or fit in one. Yeah. Look, if you have a passion, of course, do it. If you don't happen to have one way that I am fit in a box or fit in a one look if you have a passion

of course do it if you don't happen to have one don't worry about it and maybe there's a gentler answer which is follow your curiosity which is a smaller impulse and a lighter one and a less high stakes one than passion and you don't mortgage your whole house to go follow your curiosity you just try it for a weekend

maybe you like it maybe it's something maybe it's not. Maybe in the end you kind of embroider a very complex, beautiful patchwork life for yourself. And at the end of your life, maybe you're not at the top of the heap, but you're able to say, I did the most interesting thing a human being can do,

which is to, to follow the slight pollen trail of my inquisitiveness for the entirety of my life. And through that, I cross pollinated the world and created a beautiful work of art of my own existence. That's not so bad, you know,

but it doesn't get a lot of credit in a really competitive passion, passion, fetishizing society. I get it. I get it. I guess in that analogy, I consider myself like a humming hammer, maybe.

Like, uh, and I look at, I look at everything as seasons. Like in the sports world, there's a preseason, the regular season, the playoff season,

then the postseason, right? Right. Just like in life, there's four seasons. There's four seasons to every sport. Right. Do them again? Preseason? There's the preseason.

There's the season, the regular season, the playoff season, and then the postseason okay um and i you know you i prepare myself i go all in on this sport for one season right the preseason we're training mode four or five hours a day getting ready for the regular season then grinding it out then try to make the playoff season and the playoffs you try to win the championship then afterwards you evaluate in this moment like okay did i fully love this season?

Do I still love this sport? Do I still love writing? Do I still love this career path I'm on? And then in the postseason, I reevaluate. Do I want to cross-pollinate somewhere else and try my curiosity, another sport or another thing? Or do I go into another preseason or postseason to lead up to the same sport? Do you leave – you know, it's so funny because I always talk about my writing as seasonal as well. But coming from a farm background, I think of it as agricultural season.

Sure. Including seasons where you leave the field fallow so that the ground can restore itself. Yeah. Seasons where you don't work so that you don't overstress. Sure. Rob talks about that too a lot. Yeah, you got to take a break. You got to take a break. Yeah. The, you know, Rob talks about that too, a lot about like, yeah, you got to take a break.

You know, you got to take a break. Yeah. Just not train. So interesting. Yeah. But I like that. It's,

I like that you use that word too. Cause I use that, but now I'm going to say I'm in post season right now from my last book. Post season is just like, you're taking a break. You're evaluating your, you work on your injuries. You recover.

You heal. You heal. That's what it is. You heal because it's a lot of work. You know, if Tom Brady – are you a big NFL fan? I'm a big enough NFL fan to be able to follow along with where you're going. You know what Tom Brady is. I do know what Tom Brady is.

If Tom Brady was playing a game every weekend for the last 15 years, he'd be broken down. Yeah. He needs that three months to recover and do whatever he does with Giselle around the world and travel and do what it is. Think of new ways to be a jerk. I met him. He's actually a pretty nice guy. He's a pretty nice guy. I met him.

He's one of the most focused guys I've ever met. Yes. He is extraordinary at his job. He is so good at his job. So anyways, yeah. He could work on being a better sport, but that's all right. You know, attitude. We all have our personality type.

You should talk to him about that. We all have our own personality. Sorry, Tom, if you're listening to this. You're a very handsome and talented man. He is, yeah. But it's interesting because I get a lot of people that ask me, you know, how do I find my passion? But I like your response to it.

It's like, maybe just find what you're curious about right now. You know, my thing is, people that ask me, you know, how do I find my passion? But I like your response to it. It's like, maybe just find what you're curious about right now. You know, my thing is if you have one, you'll know it, right? So you shouldn't, if you have one,

you won't even be asking that because you're already doing it. If you don't have one, take the pressure of that word off your, it's just such a pressure word. And just keep going back to the word curiosity because you do have that. And the thing about curiosity that I think is interesting is how underestimated it is because I think a lot of the times people are missing their invitations.

There are all these invitations for transformation and for creativity. They're missing them because their eyes are in the wrong place. So their eyes are in the sky looking for the clouds to part. They're looking for Moses to come down with like, you know, tablets. They're looking for the voice of God. They're looking for the big sign because they think that that's how it comes. And in fact, it's your eyes have to be on the ground looking for the almost invisible trail of breadcrumbs. That's the path, right? And so

the breadcrumbs are all around you and people aren't even, their focus isn't there. It's up in the heavens, like, where's my sign? Where's my sign? And the other way that curiosity comes, I think, is that tiny little almost, almost imperceptible tap on the shoulder that asks you if you would please turn your head an eighth of an inch and look a little closer at this thing that you're barely interested in just have the most mild little touch of interest and i feel like people are getting those touches all the time and they're brushing off their shoulders like where's my sign why are they brushing it because they don't think it's significant because it doesn't seem big or important enough.

And as soon as that little tap comes, and if you even bother to turn your head an eighth of an inch and look at it more closely, in that moment, you're like, this isn't a thing. This is nothing. This is like so small and so insignificant. But it is a thing. It's the first clue on the scavenger hunt.

It's the first breadcrumb. And I think the foremost sort of shape of my entire creative journey has been about being really trusting of that. You know, like I don't know why I'm interested in this. I don't even know what this means right now. But I'm going to trust that that's an invitation or the beginning of an invitation. And then I'm going to look for the next tiny little tap and the next breadcrumb. And so it's not my life hasn't been a series of thunderous epiphanies. It's been a series of tiny whispered invitations.

Every single one of them that I've heard, I've said, okay. Let me check this out a little more. All right, let's check it out. And sometimes it's nothing. Sometimes it's not a thing. But it's never wasted. Yeah. You know?

So I think there's a wonderful thing I've said recently. Don't ask for a sign and then ignore it when it comes. But I think people don't even know it is one because it doesn't look like the ones in the movies. Yeah. Or the ones in the speeches that people give. Yeah. You know, it doesn't have voice of God, but voice of God is sometimes like, hey, buddy.

Psst. Just two inches to your left. Just a little flutter in your heart or your stomach just a little bit. I trust that with my life. I've trusted my life with that feeling. What do you think is the biggest thing that holds people back then?

Is it fear or is it pain or is it both or something else? It's always fear. And fear for Game of Thrones fans out there is the original many faced God, right? It's fear has so many disguises that it can take. And, but I know it by its, by its works that shall be known, right? Here's how you know it's fear. It's stopping you. It's fear. So it's how it makes you behave that makes you know what it is. So fear can look like fear, as we sort of commonly and narrowly recognize it, anxiety, panic, insecurity. Fear can also look like apathy, you know, a sort of deep en on we that makes a person just be like,

well, it's better. It's been done. Who cares? What's the, it can look like. What do you mean? It's been done.

Like someone's already been there. Why should I go? Yeah. Fear can look like snarkiness. Whenever I meet somebody who's really acidic and snarky, I'm like terrified person right there, you know? Um, because all I can do is shred everything that anyone else is doing.

Yeah. Um, because I can't even begin to have the courage to take my energies and point them toward anything. Fear can look like boredom. Um, fear can look like perfectionism, which I call fear and high heel shoes and pearl necklace, trying to be fancy when all it is is terrified. Fear can look like, um, self abuse. I mean, fear, you know, but, but, but basically it's, if you're not doing it, the thing or anything, it's fear has taken a disguise in your life and is blocking you. And I just, if you peel off mask after mask after mask of all those behaviors,

when you get to the bottom of it, it's just our old friend. Hello, old friend. Hello, fear. It's always that. it's always that it's always that you know i'm writing a new book that i just uh started writing called the mask of masculinity wow it's about this process of how men but also women now take on this mask of masculinity but how men growing up have been conditioned and trained to put on this mask which is a fear--based mask. A fear-based mask. Yeah. If you're looking bad, of not being whatever. Yeah. Be able to protect people

or smart enough, whatever it may be. And it's been fascinating to like dive deep in the research. That is really cool. Because as an athlete, you know,

in the locker room, you're just conditioned to never cry in front of people, to never show pain or fear or anything. Yeah. And it kind of, it's hard to like transition from the sports world into the real life and,

and not carry on those masks at school or when your relationships with your family or intimate relationships. And then how that trains down to the children when men grow up and repeat the cycle. So, uh, it's been interesting to dive into fear and, and the mass that we live in.

Yeah. And I heard, you know, there's all those studies on, is it called, what's that? Fraud syndrome, right? The studies of CEOs who, when anonymously polled, how many of them, what percentage of them believe that they're a fraud? That they're a fraud. There's quite a lot of them, right? It's about 87%.

Wow, that's crazy. And the rest, I guarantee you are sociopaths or lying. They're either pathological liars or sociopaths. They're just so narcissistic and egotistical that they believe it. They're like, yeah, I should have this. Give me the helicopter. You know, instead of having any sort of fragile molten chocolate part inside that goes, whoa, did I, why are they trusting me with this?

How am I managing 20,000 people? Why do they think I know what I'm doing? Sure. You know? And, um, is there ever a point where we should think that we know what we're doing and be confident and be like, yes, I am a leader. I can lead people, even if it's three people to a thousand people. Yeah.

I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story, but it has to be done with, here's the example I can give you back to the Oprah tour, just because that is how we began. But this is also an illustrative story from my own life is that when Oprah invited me to come and speak to 20,000 people in sports stadiums with a jumbotron and said, you know, 50 minute speech, you know, just inspire everybody. Like, got it. Done and done. Check.

Like what? Let me do it. Oh, is that all? Do you want me to prepare or should I just get up and do my, you know, just come there? So I spent six, seven months working on that speech. Oh my goodness. Because I take her very seriously because everybody who is in that audience trusts her with their entire heart and life.

And so for her to trust me with her people is a huge act of trust. I want to bring them something good, you know, and something useful to them. And so, I mean, the way that I practice, and I don't read off a teleprompter because I find it distracting. So it's a memorized sort of speech. That's a gift. Well, it's hours a day of repetition. So I was – and the way I do it is by walking. So I walk it into me.

So I spent months, literally months, walking hours a day, talking, walking, working on this, refining it, refining it. Wow. So that's part of it is are you prepared, right? Are you preparing? Have you done literally all you can do, right? And then the day of the first speech came and I was backstage and I was shaking in fear, Lois. I had like.

I can imagine. You know, my knees were. 20,000 people. You know. And Miss Winfrey in the front row like, yes. Introducing you and be like. Here, over to you. My.

Entertain us. Like, yes. Trusting you with, you know, and watching you with her people who believe in her and who trust her. And, and I was really like my, I was shaking in my hands and all those things that happen when you're really scared. And I was thinking, it was like five minutes to go on. And I was thinking, there are times in your life where the most gracious and humane gift that you can offer to people is to show them your vulnerability and to let them see that you two are fragile and human

and insecure. This is not one of those times, mother. Like that is truly what I thought. I truly, I was like, not today. No, no. And it was like so clear to me, Lewis. And it, and what I realized was you were not hired today to show them that. To show weakness or insecurities. You were brought here today to model what it looks like to stand in your truth, to tell your story in a clear voice, and to aspire to claim for yourself some sort of a warrior hero's story, right? Sure. That's your job right now. Do not bring these people who paid a lot of money do not bring them what they already have what they

already have is fear insecurity self-hatred like don't bring them more of don't try to bring them what they don't have and show them what that looks like but show it to them knowing and admitting how scared you are to yourself so So how do you do that? Just by saying, I'm scared to death. No, not to me. Um,

and I know there are people who'd be like, you should have just said, I'm nervous. I was like, no, not today. You know, like I'll do that in other places,

but not today. And I feel like everyone does that. That's kind of like the cop. I know that's a new thing. I'm so scared right now. I'm so nervous. And I, and I,

and I was like, not, no, because show them what a steady voice is and show them what it looks like for a woman to stand in her truth and tell her story and aspire to create her own journey. Show that. Model that. But admit to yourself how scared you are because that's integrity for you. Don't lie to yourself. you are because that's integrity for you. Right. So when you say, are there, is there ever a time

to say, I'm really good at this? I'm great at this. I'm perfect for this. What I thought was I've prepared for this as much as I can. 20 years of work to get here. Oprah trusted me with this. She's not an idiot. She thinks I can do this. This is your job and you're actually capable of doing this job and it's okay that you're. And no, you do not go out there and show that. And it was really galvanizing. You know, it was just like, go do your job. You know, but do your job without fronting that you're the greatest. You know, like what doesn't ever work.

It's humility and gratitude as well. Yeah, the humility was my shaking knees were my humility. And my acknowledgement of that that's all right it's okay of course you're scared you'd be you'd be a psychopath if this wasn't scary you know but go do your job go do your job you can do it and you can be scared you know what i feel like doesn't work is and it doesn't work for me and some for some people maybe it does is this kind of like pumping and getting yourself up for something by pumping arms in there and being like i'm the greatest and the reason it doesn't work for me is because there's this very reasonable sane part of my mind that's like well i'm probably

not like there's all sorts of evidence that i might not be but guess what lewis i'm not the worst either right and there's a huge amount of real estate between the worst and the greatest. And I'm somewhere in there. And I'll take my place in there where I am. And I'm just happy to be in the game. Yeah, I hear you. It's interesting. I do some speaking right now and then not a 20,000 with Oprah right now.

You will. Yeah, yeah. But I do a lot of it my own way. And I remember about a year and a half ago, it started to pick up more. And I was working with a coach on just my business stuff. And I called him like 15 minutes before. I was like, I'm just a little nervous right now. I'm like, I want to do a really great job. And he's like, it's all good. But the thing is to focus on you shouldn't be nervous if you're focusing on them. When you focus on yourself, then you're going to be nervous of how you look.

What if I mess up? What if I slip? What if I stumble? What if I look bad? It's all a concern about this. What if they, yeah, how they see me. How you look, how you show up. Instead, he's like, you know, the easiest way to shift out of that is to focus on service

and being a service. You're not going to look perfect. Right. And people are going to accept you for who you are when you're authentic and real. Right. And not looking so polished is going to look, you know, how do you serve them?

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that I felt was like, you were here to show them, go do your job and help, you know, um, serve.

That's it. That's it. So when we come from that place, it may not look perfect, but it's going to be perfect in that moment. There's this poet, the poet Mark Nepo. I was recently having a conversation with him.

He said something so wonderful. He said, we live in a culture where everybody's trying to figure out how to get more attention. Like, how do I get more, a bigger platform? How do I get more likes? How do I get more audience? How do I get more sales? How do I get more attention? And he said, that's not that that's an insignificant question, but there's another question, which is, well, you're spending all your energy focused on getting attention, what are you giving your attention to? That's the sole question. What is so worthy to you that you will actually devote your attention to giving rather than getting? So if you're giving your attention to your audience, it's a lot more beautiful exchange. You'll gain the audience.

Can I get you guys to look at me? Right. Right. Yes. Versus what can I, what can I get my, my friend Glennon Doyle Melton, who's fantastic. She's amazing.

You know, she said constantly people are coming up to her and saying, how can I get a bigger platform on my page? How can I get a bigger platform? And she says, by serving the platform you already have, because if all you're thinking about with your platform is how can I get more numbers,

you're not even paying attention to the people who are already giving you their energy. Serve them and the rest of it will take care of itself. They'll share it. They'll talk about you. They'll share or they won't. And you'll still be in service, which is really what it's for.

So it's about that giving of attention rather than trying to get it. What are you focusing your attention on right now um i have a friend who's very ill and so that is everything right now um there isn't really a lot left for anything else and it's very clarifying in a way um rob said i called him on the day that i found out and he was like it's amazing how everybody's always looking for their purpose and meaning. And then something like this happens and suddenly it's so obvious. Like this is what you're here for now is, is to serve this person.

Wow. So honestly, like don't really care about anything else right now. I mean, I'm sort of whatever energy is left over. I'm sort of giving out to the world world as i can but that's everything right now okay yeah awesome what i'm interested in is you've given it i want to talk about fear in a second so remind me if i forget i hope i'll remember but um you talked about this one of your speeches and how you it might have been on oprah or ted talk I think, how you achieved like this big monumental thing, this book, Eat, Pray, Love.

Eat, Pray, what now? I'm just kidding. Who now? Exactly. You achieved this big monumental thing, right? And then you talked about how you're like okay my greatest work is probably behind me i think i remember you mentioning saying that yeah certainly my most successful work most most well known yeah maybe it's not your greatest because you're going to create great work yeah

and it may be greater but the world will look back and be like she did that thing yes my the first line of my obituary has been written right exactly yeah so how do when people you know there's these big celebrities or people that achieve like overnight success with content or books or whatever it may be. Right. Athletes, superstars who win championships early on. Right. What advice do you give to people who make it big at a certain point and realize that,

wow, maybe I'll never win the championship of whatever I'm doing again or achieve that achievement again. Oscar, whatever it may be. Right. How do people move forward after that? Because there are a lot of high achievers on here as well as people that are trying to figure out how to turn their passion into their profit and make it a reality. But I think it's equally as important to figure that out.

So for me, it's a mathematical equation, which is weird because I don't understand math, but I do understand. Oh, my God. but you know what? This is the only way that I could see this that made sense. So you know what absolute value is? Absolute value numbers. You remember this at all? Okay. So you're talking to a guy who barely, look, I barely did either, but I actually like, so an absolute value, I can't believe I'm about to try to explain about that guy. Okay.

So there's zero, right? Zero's in the middle. And then there's positive numbers and negative numbers. Okay. Right? So there's positive 10 and there's negative 10. Okay. Right?

So one of them is worth positive 10 points. The other one is worth minus 10 points. Oh, yeah. But the distance that those two numbers are from zero is the same. Oh, 10 and 10. 10 and 10. Gotcha. If you've measured in inches, they're each 10 inches away from center.

Right? So that's an absolute value. So they have the same absolute value as which is how far they are from zero, right? I can't believe I'm explaining math. Makes sense to me. Squad goals. Um, okay. Uh, so what that means in our personal lives and I think in our professional lives and artistic lives and everything is that zero is where you are doing, it's what I call home. And my definition of home is the place where I am doing the work I love for the right reasons. And that's integrity, that's ethics, that's the devotion that I bring to my creativity, that's treating the people around me correctly. That's ethics. That's the devotion that I bring to my creativity. That's treating the people around me correctly. That's just my ethical home is at zero and sort of in my creative home is at zero. Writing is my home. I'm alone in a room and it's just me and this thing that I've always loved and it's what I'm giving my attention to. I'm not thinking about critics. I'm not thinking about book sales.

I'm just doing me and this idea alone. That's my home. So failure, great failure, let's bankruptcy, divorce, addiction, exposure. We're going to put that at negative 10. We don't want that. We all agree. We try to avoid that. We can't always avoid it, right?

If you're in life, these things are going to happen, right? Success is positive 10, right? We all agree that's we try to avoid that that has we can't always avoid it right if you're in life these things are gonna happen right success is positive 10 right we all want that we all want to go over there like bright lights and and an acclaim and praise and money and women and fast cars and and like attention and trophies that's all at positive 10 right but if you look at it and if you look at it just from a numerical value, obviously positive 10 is a lot better than negative 10. If you look at it from an absolute value, they're exactly the same distance from zero. And where I want to be is at zero. where I can do my work from a place of integrity and ethics and devotion and curiosity and interest, where I'm following my path, right? So success can seem so appealing.

But if you're not aware of what your zero is, where your steadiness is, it can throw you just as far away from yourself as failure. it can throw you just as far away from yourself as failure. And so great success and great failure are both on an absolute value scale, equally dangerous. Right. And this, we know this because look at the cautionary tales of everybody we know who gets flung out into great success and they might as well have been flung instantly to negative 10 because they're so far from their center.

And so the work that you have to do. So what happened to me after Eat, Pray, Love is I found myself at positive 10. Positive 100 probably then. Yeah, exactly. It was pretty crazy. And so what I had to do was the same thing, exactly the same psychological and spiritual work

that I used to have to do whenever I got rejected in the seven years before I got published. And these rejection letters that would throw me in a negative 10. No one's ever heard of me. Nobody cares about me. I've been trying for seven years before I got published and these rejection letters that would throw me in a negative 10. No one's ever heard of me. Nobody cares about me. I've been trying for seven years to get this published. I just got rejected again. I'm never going to be anywhere.

I'm going to be a diner waitress forever. That's negative 10. And the work that I have to do back then is the same work I had to do at positive 10, which is come back home to zero. What does that look like? Zero is where's your home, Liz? And the answer is get back to work writing. Get back to zero. What does that look like? Zero is, where's your home, Liz? And the answer is, get back to work writing. Get back to work.

Get back to work at the thing that you do that makes, that you care about more than you care about yourself in a way, more than you care about your ego, your successes.

And so after Eat, Pray, Love, the only way I could break the spell of positive 10 was to go back in my room alone and write another book knowing that it would never be i mean nothing i've ever it's not possible it was i mean the kind of good thing about he pray love too is such a tsunami that it was such a black swan that it's like you don't even have to try to do that again i didn't try to do it the first time

i've written every single you didn't think about that you didn't say i want this to be a big success and be a big seller I would like everything I do to be I mean you want people to read it sure of course I mean if I have a choice between positive 10 and negative 10 I'll go with positive but I'm not in control of the outcome I'm only in control of my state the work my work and my

process and my ethics right my integrity and my ethics and when you're there as I said in that ted talk the hurricanes of outcome can come and go failures the hurricane of failure can come the hurricane of success can come you just keep coming back home to what you're meant to be doing with the spirit that you're meant to be doing it and you'll be fine you'll be fine um and that's why i'm not doing cocaine off strippers boobs

I don't even know if that's like what I would try anything with a female but that's why I'm alright you know what I mean that's why I have my old friends that's why that's why I don't have two albino tigers like that's why I'm alright I just have the one

I mean that's it I'm all right. Um, I just have the one, you know, I mean that's, it's like, come back. Just are you home? Are you home at zero at equilibrium? Are you doing the right work from the right place with, have you released the outcome? Are you serving rather than, are you trying to give attention rather than getting it? Then you're all right. Did you feel like you were ready for what came after the book? Do you feel like the attention, I mean, it must have been so much attention and everyone, opportunity, opportunity, like press, ridiculousness, right? I was as ready as I could be.

And the really good news was when it happened, which was fourth book, not first. In my good marriage, not my unstable, chaotic marriage, 34, not 22. You know, after years of therapy, not before. After spiritual journey to India, not before. In a way, the writing of Eat, Pray, Love and the living of Eat, Pray, Love prepared me for what happened with Eat, Pray, Love. Wow, interesting. You know, so that what happened after, it was so interesting. I've tried to explain this before, but I feel like people say to me, God, it must have been so crazy for you what happened after you prayed love.

And I always want to say my life was crazy when I was in my 20s. You just didn't know me then. I made it crazy myself because I was doing all sorts of crazy things. Emotionally, mentally. Emotionally, mentally. Everything. Kodo, relationships, all kinds of craziness and immaturity, really. Yeah.

You know, and you might have looked at me then, and I might have looked like somebody who had it together or had a normal life, but I was actually just a tornado. By the time Eat, Pray, Love came out, there was a tornado going on around me because of the reaction to that book, but I was not the tornado. You were more grounded. I was all right. You know, and it was, and it also, I mean, there were things to adjust to.

There were parts of it that were times where I, you know, said yes to too many things and had to learn like, okay, don't do that again. This place that you're in is not good. Being this stressed, this tired and feeling like you're being eaten by, by everybody. Like that's no good. But yeah, you know, I, I was all right. And I had good people around me and, um, I was living in a tiny little town in New Jersey, which is a very safe place to be. People used to come, there was this period at like peak eat, pray, love where people knew I lived in that town and

they would come to the diner and ask the diner waitresses, does, where's Liz Gilbert's house? And the diner waitresses would point across the bridge to Pennsylvania and be like, okay, so you go over that bridge and you go like 20 miles over those mountains. And they would just send them out of town on my behalf. Wow. Because it was such a loyal community to me. Was it crazy though? I mean, it was just for a little while. But it's not like Kardashian level.

That's a little crazy. but it's not like Kardashian level. And it was also, you know, there's also something that would happen that people think is crazy, but I didn't experience as crazy where people would come up to me on the street and say, this must sound insane to you, but I feel like I know you. And I would say that doesn't sound insane to me because I wrote two memoirs in a row. I told you literally everything

about my life. So of course you feel like, you know, me, um, the reason this feels weird is that I don't know you. Right. So that's the imbalance. Yeah. I would just say, I don't know you. So why don't we just go right to that? Why don't you tell me who you are and where you're from and what your life is? Cause you already know, you actually really do already know everything about me, you know? And I didn't think they were crazy to feel that way. It's not their fault that I wrote two memoirs in a row. I'm the one who put it out there. Right. Right. Can't, I can't, you can't do that and then be like, I don't want attention. Right. Yeah. It's like, you know, I reveal some of my biggest secrets on my podcast and people

listen every week. That's when they meet me, they say, you know, I feel like I know this and this, this, all these things about you and I appreciate you opening up yeah it's kind of like a living memoir i guess yeah podcast so and that's all right you did that yeah with your own volition and your own agency nobody came and stole your journals and published them exactly you know um you know i decided to put that out there you decided to put that out there right um and i get it and there's people who i feel like i know. Um, I've had that experience where I meet somebody, um, yeah, we all feel like we know. What is it about her that so many people are like, gives you this energy thought about her? Why are so many people attracted to her? Why is she so different than everyone else?

She's better than everyone else. No, I mean, she's the most impressive human being i've ever met um you know and i what is it she's she has managed i said this to her once i said you never let your greatness get in the way of your goodness um so what it starts with her is an essential goodness. And she has 360 degree empathetic view of every room that she's in. She's aware of everyone in that room and their state. And there's a story I've told before, but I find it so remarkable. When we did that tour, there was a young girl who came with her parents and she was there as a guest of the make a wish foundation, teenage girl.

So she was there with her mom and her dad or her little sister was probably about nine. And this girl was about 15 and I don't know what her condition was, but Lewis, she was there with the make a wish foundation. She's very ill, you know, like obviously something's not right.

Not good with this. She's a young person who's either very sick or dying right and and she her wish had been to come and meet oprah winfrey and to come to this event and so oprah went on stage at one point and just said in this very poised and beautiful way she took a moment and said that we have a special guest in the audience today. And I can't remember her name. You know, just make up a name. She's like, you know, this is Kelly. She's here as a gift of the Make-A-Wish Foundation. And can you stand up?

And she put the spotlight on her. And everyone's like weeping because they don't even know, but they know. Like, you know, everyone knows what that means. And that alone was beautiful, generous, empathetic, humane. That's Oprah, right? But then she did something after that that I was like, oh, that's why you're you and nobody else is you. She said, we have another very special guest in the audience today. And I was so honored to be able to meet this young woman backstage and talk to her.

And she reminds me of myself at her age. She loves reading and she's passionate about school and she loves music and she loves to dance and she is really interested in animals. And she's just the most vivacious, spirited young woman I've ever met. And that's Kelly's little sister. And she puts the spotlight on the nine-year-old who's the little sister of the girl who's very sick and i was like oh my god of course that kid gets no attention right of course that kid gets no attention it's all the focus is on because kelly kelly's got the glamour of you know and kelly's very ill and her probably requires a huge amount of attention because she has a serious disease of some sort. But she also has the glamour of suffering around her.

And this kid has probably just been as much as doesn't mean her parents don't love her. They just don't have time and energy. They have a very sick daughter. And I was like, oh, my God. And that little girl stood up and she put the spotlight on her and she was just beaming. Like she just like took up the whole arena. She's like, hi. And she put the spotlight on her and she was just beaming. Like she just like took up the whole arena. She's like, hi.

And for Oprah to say, you remind me of myself. Oh my God. You know, like you remind me of myself. You're just like me. You're great. It's like,

that's why you're Oprah Winfrey. I mean, it's good enough that you did the first step, but you saw the next thing that nobody else would see. And, and that's, again, not about how am I getting attention, but who am I giving attention to? And I see her do that in every room that she's in, you know, just pick the person who isn't getting the attention and see them, you know, and make them feel seen. And that's why she's her and nobody else is. Because I think after a certain level, people stop giving attention

and only try to hold on to the attention that they have or get more. You know, it's interesting. As I asked Rob, we were having breakfast the other day, I said, what's one question you haven't asked Liz that you've always wanted to ask her? You guys have an incredible relationship. I'm sure you guys have told each other everything. But I said, what's one question that you'd want to ask? And his question was, how does she go into every room and see people for who they are

and give them the most attention? Okay, now I'm going to cry. So I thought that was interesting. I don't know. Because I want to. because I want to. And, you know, you were asking about, that's so sweet of him to say that. You were asking him about. He wants to know how you do it.

How? By wanting to, by wanting to. You know, why else would you walk into a room yeah right like what other motive would you possibly have what other reason is there to meet a person than to try to see them you know um i'm interested in us yeah we're really weird we are we're really weird these monkeys these monkeys with these supercomputer brains on this planet spinning 69 000 miles an hour through space who have a consciousness of divinity what all of us are that i want to know what that's what that is you know

and i think actually really one of the if there was a painful thing about eat pray love it was that the number of people who were in the room was suddenly so big that I couldn't do that in every room anymore without me being exhausted by it. It's taking too much of your energy. I'm not a natural boundary setter, to put it mildly. Yeah. I mean, you let me pick you up in a way. I know. And the first thing I said to you was –

Who's this guy? Pick me up. And the first thing I said to you was, who's this guy? And the first thing I said to you is use me. You were like, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to pitch? You know, what do you want me to promote on this podcast? I was like, I'm here to serve you and your people use me. Like I don't, so I had for me to have to set boundaries is very painful. I'd rather not.

I mean, I really would rather that we were all just golden retrievers in a pile. So it's not easy for me to say no to people and it's not easy for me to say I can't give you everything you want. I'll certainly try. But I did this thing that was so cool. When I was on tour for Big Magic, I often find that I shut down. There's a part of me that shuts down on tour because it's so much energy going out. And I was going on this four month long tour and I thought,

I don't want to be shut down. I don't want to just be in pilot, like autopilot. I don't want to have my screensaver on. I want to be awake and alert to what Rob always calls. The action is here. Like your life isn't happening sometime in the future. It's happening right now in this room with whoever you're with.

And so I made this goal that every single person that I met, everyone that I met on my tour, I was going to ask them, what are you most excited about in your life right now? With this idea that… That's amazing. This is the question I ask anyone new that I meet. Really? I ask them this question. It's such a good question. Because I feel like people always ask the wrong question.

They ask, where are you from? What do you do? There's no way to learn less about someone than to ask people those two questions. It's instant learning nothing about somebody. So I'll either say, what are you most grateful in your life recently? Or what are you most excited about in your life right now? That is so cool. I feel like that brings the most

joy out of people. Well, you get right to the thing they're excited about. And right to the person. That's crazy you said that. That's and right to the person that's crazy you said that that's so funny i didn't know you asked this question that's funny because that's about being interested in you know what they're all about too and the answers are amazing aren't they unbelievable um like that my favorite one on my tour was this young woman doing my makeup before a morning tv show and it's exactly the kind of interaction that is normally not an interaction um which is we're so in case david white the poet says the most interesting thing to him about human beings is that we're the only species on the planet who can choose not to show up um like can choose to

not even just be there like all animals are totally where they are at all times like the hawk can't be like i'm just not gonna do it's gonna be a hawk today like a fish can't be like, I'm just not going to be a hawk today. Like a fish can't just be like, I have had it up to the teeth with being a fish. I'm just not even going to show up today. Like humans can do that though and be like, I'm not even going to, I just can't, you know. And so there's all these human interactions that we have with people where there are two people who are just both not there. And so for me, getting my makeup done before morning TV with this young woman who'd been there since 3 a.m. at the studio and me on a long tour,

that's exactly the kind of interaction where two people could be doing this incredibly weirdly intimate thing where she's like a quarter of an inch from my face painting me. And not be there. And she's not there and I'm not there. Like that is weird, right?

On your phone. Yeah, I'm planning what I'm gonna be saying and she's thinking about when she's getting off work and here she is like so physically intimate to me. We're both not in the room. Like, that's incredible. Right. So I said, what do you, can I ask you a question?

And she's like, just sort of dead. I tired. She's like, I said, you know, what are you most excited about right now? And she went, they just found water on Mars. Like literally like that and she's like this is changing everything about the whole history of human colonialization and migration and my grandchildren are going to live in outer space and this changes everything about climate change and this and she's a total space geek wow and i was like you have no clue we could have sat here

for a long time before we got to mars you know but we just jumped right into this really weird, very specific thing. And suddenly we were both there, like two human beings in a room together, life meeting life, right? And it's a moment you remember. I'll never forget her. It was awesome. And then I wanted to know everything about her feelings about Mars and why she cares and what she's all about. And then I used to have a friend who was a winemaker and he used to say, you know, wine is alive. It's a, you know, it's living cultures in there. And when you're drinking wine, it's a moment where life is meeting life. A living thing is meeting another living thing. And he said, there's nothing better that you can do with your time in all circumstances than to create scenarios in which life can meet life.

And that question is a really good way for life to meet life. What are you excited about? What are you grateful for? That's a good one too. I think it, cause it's the real, I mean, I live in gratitude. That's my life. Like the morning moment I wake up to, if you ever call me on my cell phone, I don't pick up my voice message says, tell me what you're most grateful for first.

Then I'll reply to you. To just meeting people, I'm constantly evoking it because it's hard to be angry and grateful at the same time. It's really hard to be frustrated and pissed off at life. And it's impossible to be generous without being grateful. Absolutely. Impossible. I've never met a generous person who doesn't live in gratitude. And I've never met a stingy and ungenerous person who has any gratitude in them at all.

It's impossible. It's always what's lacking. What's not good enough. Yeah. I don't have enough. So how can I possibly share? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Interesting. Very cool. Who taught you that? Or did you teach it yourself? You know. Life. Life. Yeah.

I mean, I was really miserable for a long time. Just like inside. Like I was so driven and focused to achieve. Mm-hmm. Because I thought I was really miserable for a long time. It was just like inside. Like I was so driven and focused to achieve because I thought that was going to bring me acceptance. Yeah. And I would achieve everything I ever wanted and feel so lonely and like – Oh, so you get this. You win the trophy and then – And then I was like –

Then you're like, what am I supposed to do this? I was the most angry, nasty person like 10 minutes after like every big dream I ever achieved when I was like my teens and 20s. and like 10 minutes after like every big dream I ever achieved when I was like my teens and twenties. And I was just like, why am I so frustrated and angry and defensive and guarded by like achieving everything I ever wanted? Yeah. And then I started to do the inner work and realized that's why the mask of masculinity, I'm diving into this topic.

I love that you're doing this. To talk about over the last three, four years, three, four years, I've really been like shifting and realized, wow, like I've been doing it to gain acceptance as opposed to, to create what I love and inspire and to serve. And so now everything's shifted to service. It's why it's my motivation behind giving and creating. And yes, I want to be a New York time bestseller and achieve these things. Go and you will, but I want to serve. But in the meantime, yeah. And in that service process. And after and during. Exactly.

So in the process, like life is just transformed. That's amazing. Yeah. Just being aware of it and then taking action. I know this because I listened to your interview with Rob and I know you talked about that whole evolution. Yeah. That's so cool.

So it's been fun. I mean, I'm still doing a lot of the work. I'm not perfect by any means, but. What? You're not done? You're still alive and you're not done. I'm still alive. you're not done. No life will make sure that you're not done. Exactly. But gratitude for me, it's like, uh, you know, it's the morning I write it down, you know, during the day I just talk about it, ask people, evoke it as much as I can.

And then, uh, at night I'll tell my girlfriend, you know, I'll ask her what are the three things you're most grateful for? And I'll share what I'm grateful for from just the day. And I feel like it's, again, it's really hard, really hard to be angry or resentful or pissed off with like a hater or whatever. Like if you didn't achieve what you wanted to today, it's still a lot to be grateful for. So much good that's happening to us. That practice of three things a day that you're grateful for has been shown to be I know you know this, but it's shown to be

one of the very few immediately concrete ways that you can totally change your life into a happier life. It's like just, and it can't be abstract like, yeah, I'm just going to try to have an attitude of gratitude. It's like, write that shit down. Write it down.

Tell people and evoke it out of people too. Write it down because it makes you have to find it. See it and realize it. Yeah. Be aware of it. What's missing in your life right now? Wow. What's missing? That's very hard to even think of. Is there anything missing? Yeah, I mean, there's nothing missing in my life. There's things missing in who I would like to be. Who's that? I would love to be less judgmental. I would love to be more forgiving.

Those two things go hand in hand. I would love to have no anxiety. So what's sometimes missing is peace and trust, but less and less, like less and less. I'm at the most peaceful and trusting place in my life now that I've ever been. And I see where we can just keep going with that you know um what do you think it's going to take for you to achieve that or be that more money isn't it hilarious i'm just joking but like do you see how dumb that sounds it sounds stupid like yeah yeah i mean if i want to be a more forgiving person i'm just gonna have to have

a bigger income you know and i'm gonna have to have a bigger income, you know, and I'm going to have to have a much, much better house. And then I think, and then I think I won't judge others as much. I think it'll make me kinder and softer and less, you know, less, less something. What, what it's going to take, I'll tell you, you know, I think what it's going to take is, is paying attention, you know, keeping that at the, you know, Brene Brown always says, keep your shadow in front of you where you can see it um because you want to you know keep an eye on it if you if you if it's behind you it's going to be doing all kinds of crazy stuff to you that you can't see um so i know that this is my shadow work um and and i think forgiveness especially um is my shadow work i can't i and the way that i want to work on that, I have a lot of

come at it from many angles, but one is to spend as much time around people who are really good at it. I mean, the thing about, the thing I feel about our families and where we come from is that I realized this the other day, cause somebody said to me, well, you're really lucky. Cause you grew up in a family where creativity was encouraged, you know, so lucky you, you get to go be a writer cause your family didn't squash your creativity. And I thought you are absolutely correct about that. You know, and if I'm going to be creating a gratitude list for things that I'm grateful for, one of the things I'm grateful for is that my parents did not squash my creativity. And that was, that's amazing because a lot of families do. And I am,

and they, my parents were good at that and they got that. And there's a lot of other stuff that they got and they were good at too. However, they didn't got that. And there's a lot of other stuff that they got and they were good at too. However, they didn't get everything. And there was a lot of stuff they were not good at at all. They weren't perfect. They were not, believe it or not. And that, you know, they were also raised by people who didn't get everything and who didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle and who had serious gaps. Right.

Yeah. serious gaps, right? And so my parents, like all of our parents gave me literally everything they could based on what they had. You, it is not possible for somebody to give you something they do not themselves possess. It's not possible. And so there were certain lessons growing up that I never saw modeled for me only because they didn't know how to do it. You know, um, if they knew they would have shown me the way they showed me how to be creative, the way they showed me how to be self-assured, like there were certain things that they were really good at showing me, but they weren't able to show me because no one showed them was how to be forgiving, how to be a certain level generous level generous, because there was like a lot of

scarcity anxiety in my family. They weren't able to show me how to be honest in certain circumstances that require a very brave honesty because there was a lot of conflict aversion. And so there were a lot of things that were never discussed and said because they didn't know how. None of this is about blaming them. You can't blame people for not giving you what they didn't have you know and what i wanted to say to the and i was sort of able to say to this trying to explain this this woman who said you're so lucky that you were given this and i'm like yes but i didn't get

like these 10 other things and what i've done as an adult is to go become a student of those things I didn't get because all over the world are people who have to offer what my parents didn't have. And I've become, I go sit at their feet and I say, show me, teach me, model for me how to do this thing that was not modeled for me when I was a child, because now I'm a grown ass adult. I can go look for that thing. I'm not going to sit around at my age and be like, nobody ever told me how to be honest. So I'm going to go find the most honest people I know and say, walk me through how you just did that interaction where you were so kind, but also so straight with somebody about your truth and your feeling, because I've never been able to do that.

So can you just take me back and just literally step by step, like elementary addition, show me what that looks like when you do that, you know, and show me how you just forgave that person who I watched wrong you. Talk me through it. It's tough. It is tough. But there are people who know things that I don't know. And you can go be near them and you can ask them questions and you can learn.

And what I wanted to say to this woman who was like, my family didn't teach me how to be creative, so I can't be creative, was like, go fucking learn. Are you seven? Go to the bookstore. There's a whole thing. Listen to free podcasts. Rob always says this,

whatever your ailment or missing pieces are, there are professionals who can help you with it. Like go get a creativity coach, take an art class, or just sit there for the rest of your life saying, nobody ever let me be creative when I was a kid. So hands up in the air, nothing I can do about it. Go be a student.

You know, go be a student. So these pieces that I'm missing in me, my life's goals are to be a student. You know, like I took Iyanla Vanzant's 12-week forgiveness class. Wow. You know, like I listened six times to Rob's podcast, his four podcasts in a row on forgiveness. I did the homework. It's like, I will show up and try to fill these gaps rather than being like, damn it, mom, why didn't you give me everything I needed? You know why? Cause no one gave her everything she

needed, you know? but one thing my parents did teach me was how to learn so it's a great skill go learn you know go go learn yeah you know um i didn't get all i'm assuming you got everything you needed from your family of origin everything they just filled in the whole story the thing they did give me which is probably similar to your story is they gave me belief they said told me that anything i wanted to do was possible my father my mom were just like whatever your dream is go for it like we fully support you no matter how crazy it is that's great no matter how you know whatever it is you know they also got divorced and were a lot of emotional conversations constantly growing

up. My brother was in prison for four years when I was eight years old, so I didn't have any friends during that time because no other parents would let their kids hang out with me. I was sexually abused. I was raped when I was five by a man that I didn't know. So there was a lot of things that shaped my mindset early on, but my father and mom always said, they always told me how my father and mom always said,

they always told me how much they loved me and said, you can do anything you want. That's a pretty good fundamental. And it's still that belief in me. And out of all the kids in my high school and college, I went to three different colleges, there's so many kids that I know who were afraid of me when I went after my dream after college

that didn't want to talk to me anymore. And I was like, why am I being like, why does no one want to talk to me or hang out with me when I'm going after what I want? And I realized, cause a lot of them didn't have that foundation that they were able to go after what they wanted. So it felt really foreign.

And they were just like, yeah, they were kind of trying to take me down or bring me back to where they are and just stay in the comfort zone. We call that tribal shaming. Right. And I was just like, very powerful thing.

So I had to lose all these friends. But I was like, I'm not going to sacrifice my dream and learn what my gifts are to please 20 people or whatever it is that were my closest friends. And a lot of them have come back around years later and actually helped ask for coaching and I've helped them with businesses and come back together.

But I had to have the courage to leave and be alone again essentially. Wow. And just believe like, hey, this is what my calling is. Do you think you're being alone as a child when your brother was in prison? You didn't have any friends sort of prepared you for that sense of isolation? I mean all through elementary school, middle school, high school, I was like very – like a lot of inner turmoil just felt like alone all the time yeah and it's what made me early on it was what made me so driven to prove people wrong like yeah i was picked last

on sports teams that's hilarious elementary school you guys i'm sitting across from lewis and yeah i'm just saying who did you go to school with like goliath and hulk who were like the first the first ones picked on every on every team and hulk who were like the first the first ones picked on every on every team i was like i was like the tall skinny like goofy looking kid right who was always like in the special needs classes because i didn't do well in school the reason but now you understand absolute value exactly the reason i created the reason i created school of greatness was because i didn't do well in school but in sports i I loved learning and I loved the principles of achieving your dreams. So I was like,

what if we could create a different type of school? That's so cool. I love it. The principles that actually help us feel the most fulfilled, the most loved, the most worthy, the most accepted school of greatness. We're getting off track here. No, we're on track.

We've never been more on track. There is no off track. I want, I want to be respectful. Cause you said about an hour. We're about five in. All right. Well, you want to get another one more question in? Cause then I got to go over to see brother.

I know. I know. I know. So I was just like, man, I could go for another hour, but I want to make sure. Can I ask three more? All right. I'll try to ask them quickly. Although that is not my forte.

Perfect. Perfect. I want to respect for your time. If you're good, we can, we can finish it. We'll do it. We'll do it. Okay. A friend of mine just, I told her I'm going out to California. I want to respect for your time. If this is your last, if you're good, we can finish. No, no, no. We'll do it. We'll do it. Okay.

A friend of mine just, I told her, I'm going out to California. I'm doing a speaking event. She goes, every event with you is a speaking event. Am I right? Am I right? But yes, we will. You ask and I'll try to be, we'll do lightning round. Perfect.

Perfect. Okay. Cool. Okay. If there was a, we'll have to come, you have to come back on then another time because I have many more questions I want to ask. Oh, you're lovely. Next time I'm out in –

In L.A. In L.A. Perfect. My new second home apparently. There you go. So we're liking the L.A. now. Yeah, it's good. Good vibes.

If there was a word or a phrase that you had to Mike Tyson your face and put your mask on and it had to be in reverse so that when you walked in the mirror you reflect and you could only you could see it essentially what would that word or saying be well i already mike tyson'd it on my well it's not mike tysoning it it's the opposite of it i did it that's the literally the opposite of a mike tyson tattoo it's a white ink tattoo on my wrist can you read it stubborn gladness that's it that's stubborn gladness it's from a poem by my favorite poet jack gilbert my relation um where he says we must have the stubbornness to accept our gladness and the ruthless furnace of the world um and i think that's everything it's not denying that the world is a furnace it's just saying you put your shoulder up against it with your optimism that's

cool you're heliotropic like these sunflowers. I like it. You turn your face to the light and you put that stubborn gladness in. That's cool. I like that. I might just go do that. There you go. Right on the forehead. Right on the forehead. Reverse.

Like ambulance, you know? Exactly. Exactly. I like that. This is what I call the three truths. Okay. Question. Now, I didn't prep Liz for this, so this will be off the cuff, which I'm sure you'll be fine.

Let's say it's the last day for you many, many years from now, however much longer. Many, many years. You've written many other big hits, movies, books, anything you wanted to create. You've been able to write the story right now and create everything. The sequel to Hamilton. Right? Whatever it is you want to create, you've created it. Called Jefferson. You've been able to write the story right now and create everything. The sequel to Hamilton. Right? Right? Whatever it is you want to create, you've created it.

Called Jefferson. And the last day, it's peaceful. Everyone knows it's the last day for you. Everyone's there. Everyone you care about is there. And for whatever reason, everything's been erased. Big magic, all the books, everything. Plays, whatever.

Movies, gone. And your great-great whatever comes up and says, here's a pen and a piece of paper, Liz. Can you – what do they call you? Elizabeth. They call me Auntie Grandma, actually. Auntie Grandma. Yeah, I have stepkids and their grandkids call me Auntie Grandma.

There you go. There you go. Auntie Grandma. Here's a pen and a piece of paper, and there's nothing else to remember you by because it's all been erased. But you can write down three truths. The three truths that you know from everything you've learned, all your experiences. What would you pass on to us to be the biggest lessons, principles? Any two lipsticks combined make a better shade.

Number one, there's only three wishes three wishes the water on a grease fire and um red wine stains on a white couch are never coming out everything else can be reversed every other mistake you make in life can be reversed except that one. But a more earnest thing is keep your side of the street clean. Don't make yourself smaller to make other people feel better about themselves. Make yourself smaller to make other people feel better about themselves. And avoid romantic entanglements when you're too young for them. It's the really, like, I feel like the biggest obstacle, which of course it turned into, you know, turned into deep, bright love. But the, yeah, certainly the one piece of advice and truth that I always give to young women especially is do not be too hasty to attach your life to somebody else's life. Do not be too hasty to attach your life to somebody else's life and,

and focus on creating your own journey and your own identity because there is a terrible habit that women have. The minute they are attached to somebody there is a terrible habit that women have. The minute they are attached to somebody else is that they become that person's helper. Um, and they live in service of that person's dream rather than their own. And so just stay away from it for a while. Just get just back right out of that bar. Just like, you know, like if I could go back in time, which I wouldn't do because I don't want to undo anything that's brought me here, hanging out with you in this room right now is so good, right? Like,

why would I want to take any piece of that out or else none of us are right here. But in all the parallel universes, I'm going back, you know, in 1992 on first Avenue and 10th street. And I'm about to walk into this particular bar and I'm going back you know in 1992 on First Avenue and 10th Street and I'm about to walk into this particular bar and I'm just picking myself up off that

sidewalk and I'm putting myself in a different direction because I'm not ready to do what I'm about to do with the guy that I'm about to meet in that bar and I'm just going to go to the library instead go to the library and learn Italian instead I'm just going to go to the library instead. Go to the library and learn Italian instead.

I'm just going to go do something else instead. I'm not getting married at 24 in my next life, you know. So those are my three noble truths. But the thing about the lipstick is totally true. Very cool. Well, I've got one final question. And before I ask it, I want to make sure everyone goes and gets this book. It's called Big Magic, Creative Living Beyond Fear. So make sure to check this out. We'll have it all linked up on the show notes here in just a second.

And make sure to follow you online. Where do you like to hang out the most on social media? Facebook. I'm at Gilbert Liz and I'm there a lot. I have a beautiful Facebook community. Perfect. So go hang out there. Tell her what you thought about this interview. Send her love over there, but also on Instagram, Twitter, everywhere else too. Yeah.

I'm all over the social media. I like it. I like it. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Liz. I acknowledge you for your incredible joy, for your incredible heart, your spirit,

and for your ability to see so many people for who they are and what brings them joy in the world. So I acknowledge you for consistently showing up even after such big wins and serving people in such an amazing loving way because you could easily write off and write people off, but you have an incredible heart from this last hour just connecting with you, and it's just an inspiration to so many. You are so lovely.

Now I want you to pick me up again. Yeah, I will. I will. I will. That is so, so sweet. Okay, I know this is probably going off script, but can I acknowledge you for showing people how to be a student? Sure.

You know, like starting with your story of being dark and angry and disenchanted and obsessed with achievement and never satisfied and finding a way to live from a place of gratitude and now taking the mask of masculinity off, which is going to be such a community service. It's going to be such a community service for you to do that for so many men and women and families. So keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. I will. Oh, I was going to fist bump you, but I'm getting a full double Bill Clinton handshake. Final question is what's your definition of greatness?

Goodness. Liz Gilbert. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You are the greatest and the goodest. And there you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this episode with the incredible Liz Gilbert.

Make sure to share this out with your friends and check out the full video interview at lewishouse.com slash 341. Go ahead and tweet it out, post it on Facebook, on Instagram, snap it on Snapchat and send me a message on there. Let me know what you guys think. Leave a comment below in the comment section, either on the blog post at lewishouse.com slash 341. Or if you're watching this video, then on the YouTube comments as well at YouTube slash Lewis Howes. Again, I loved connecting with Liz and hope to support her for many, many years to come. All of her work is incredible and she's just got a big heart. So I hope you guys go follow her, go support her, go buy her latest book, go buy Eat, Pray, Love. If you haven't read that yet, go watch the movie, which came out as well many years ago with Julia Roberts starring as her, which is kind of crazy.

And yeah, give her some love. Give her some support. Follow her up. I am so pumped for all of you guys. We've got some big interviews coming up. Liz is one of the biggest, but we've got even more big interviews. And it's because of you. The podcast continues to grow and grow and grow.

podcast continues to grow and grow and grow. And that's why we're able to get such incredible people on and big names and people who have done incredible things so that I can ask them the questions that you want to know and really dive in deeper to understanding how they got to where they are and how they became so great in what they do. So keep sharing the word, spreading the message, letting people know about the School of Greatness podcast. And also, if you've been listening for a while and you have yet to leave a review, please leave a review over on iTunes. That'll help us get more rankings, be seen more on iTunes, and get more people listening to the School of Greatness.

So thank you guys so very much. Keep enjoying every single moment of your journey. It's so important to soak up every single moment because we never know when it's going to be over. And it's not always about achieving the big dream. It's about those moments, those precious moments in between on the journey towards our dream that really makes life juicy. I love you guys.

I appreciate you. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.