The School of Greatness - 344 The Art of Gift Giving with John Ruhlin

Episode Date: June 20, 2016

"You'll never regret giving more than is reasonable." - John Ruhlin If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/344

This is episode number 344 with John Rulim. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to today's episode.

And one of the main questions I continue to get as an online entrepreneur, as an author, as a speaker, as a top podcast host, is how do you build your online business? How did you start out, Louis, with just an idea on your sister's couch and build a multi-million dollar business and continue to get in the press and continue to bring in more revenue streams and continue to get more attention and continue to build your audience? How do you do this? And how do I do it for myself? This is the question I get from so many of you.

You want to learn about building an online business. And we just released a free brand new video series that's going to show you every step of the way. Go to lewishouse.com slash legacy. That's right. lewishouse.com slash legacy to get the free video series. It's going to help you build your empire, grow your brand, generate more leads, more sales, and build that online business around the thing you love doing the most.

Again, lewishouse.com slash legacy. Go there right now. Sign up. It's 100% free. Free video series. Make sure to go there right now. And for today's interview, we've got the incredible John Rulon. Now, for those that don't know who John is, we've got the incredible John Rulon. Now, for

those that don't know who John is, he's kind of been under the radar for a while. And he got my attention many, many months ago, actually, when I was doing my book launch. He was really there for me in a big way. And John is ranked number one in sales in the 65-year history of Cutco, which is the largest U.S.-made cutlery manufacturer in North America. And I'm sure most of you have heard of Cutco knives. As my parents bought them back in the day, I have some of them myself. They're incredible knives, and most households, I feel like, have seen them or have used them and continue to buy them.

He's also the founder of the Ruland Group, which is regularly sought out to teach executives and sales leaders in the pro sports business and nonprofit world, the strategies and impact intentional appreciation can have on sales and culture. And this whole intentional appreciation thing is what he calls giftology. And that's the title of his new book, which is called giftology. And some of the main things we cover here is how people's time is related to the gift you give them, how to turn a gift into an artifact that has real lifetime value, why John hates the term token of appreciation and why you should never, ever say it, how

to choose the perfect gift for each individual, the formula to shock and awe the people you give gifts to, and so much more. There is a whole science behind gift giving that I had no clue about. And wow, when he breaks it down for you in this interview, it starts to make sense. And you start to think about, man, I used to give out really bad gifts or they weren't intentional at all. And wow, the impact of a really great gift, what it actually does for someone, what it will do for your business long term.

And again, he talks about not giving gifts in order to hopefully get business in return, but actually that if you do it the right way, you're just going to continue to get more and more business because you're doing good things. You're putting out good things in the world. You're giving appreciation to continue to get more and more business because you're doing good things. You're putting out good things in the world. You're giving appreciation to other people. You're being thoughtful and intentional. And good things come back around to people that are thoughtful and intentional and go out of their way to give. So I am actually really excited for you guys to dive into this.

For anyone that wants to understand gift giving in a big way, this is the interview. understand gift giving in a big way, this is the interview. And if you know anyone who's a business owner or an entrepreneur or someone in sales or marketing or someone that just likes to give gifts, someone who's just always thoughtful and thinking about other people, make sure to forward them this link, lewishouse.com slash 344. Do it right now because you're going to change their life. If they are a gift giver or they're in the world of sales or getting customers or getting referrals, this is going to be, this is literally going to transform their business and ultimately transform their life. Again, the link is lewishouse.com slash 344. It's the power of gift giving and how to give the greatest gift ever to anyone. So without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, John Ruling.

Welcome, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm here with my man, John Ruling. Good to see you, brother. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming in. Now, you are currently, let me know if this stat's still true, you're currently ranked the number one in sales in the 65-year history of Cutco, Cutco Knives. Is that still true? Yeah, those knife people, yeah. No one broke it yet, huh? It's now 70 years, yeah.

70 years, and you did this while you were going to university in Canton, Ohio. Yeah, I'm alone. So you broke the world record for sales in this company while going to school. Yeah, they've had about a million distributors or interns come through. In 70 years. In 70 years. And you were the number one. Is this like number one in like a month span or like a day span or like a year?

What is this category? In the history of the company. In the history. Like you sold more in the history of the company than anyone else. Pretty silly. Wow. In what period of the company. In the history. You sold more in the history of the company than anyone else. Pretty silly. Wow. In what period of time? It was like four years.

Four years. No one who ever worked there has sold more. Did no one ever work more than four years? No, there's some people that have been doing it for 50 years. Wow. They still haven't sold as much as you have in four years. Yeah. Wow.

So how much did you sell in those years? don't go into the numbers okay um you sold millions yeah in volume i'm assuming yeah yeah okay millions awesome man yeah so it's it's uh yeah it's pretty pretty crazy i was you know pretty fortunate to have some mentors that taught me some things that completely kind of like the blue ocean strategy i was doing things in a different way and a different quantity. So it really. You were unique. You were different. You stood out.

Yeah. You know, when you're hungry and you're getting ready to pay for med school and you're, you know, you grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth. It's amazing how that hunger, you know, gets the creative juices flowing.

You're very creative. I like it, man. And some of the facts about you is you, you were going to be a, you wanted to be the creative juices flowing. You're very creative. I like it, man. And some of the facts about you is you wanted to be a lawyer. Doctor. Or doctor. Yeah. Either one.

When you're poor and you get straight A's and you're an overachiever, those are the two things that seem like you can make the most money. Got it. Yeah, that's true, man. And another cool fact about you is you pay all of your employees to have their homes cleaned every other week. Is that still true? That's still true.

Why? Why do you do that? I think a lot of companies underestimate the value of being creative with their dollars. And I think that when you can do things for people that they would never do for themselves and it makes their quality of life easier. We have a lot of working moms that have kids and want the pastor's wife. And I found that when you take care of something like cleaning and laundry, they'd never hire their own housekeeper. And if you gave them the money, they'd spend it on something else,

bills and whatever else. And so that money, one, they brag about it. But two, the husbands love it because they're less stressed. The house is clean. Their life just operates easier. And so, I mean, I've shared that perk or benefit even when I spoke at Google and people are like, we work at Google and we get a lot of cool stuff, but we don't get our houses cleaned every other week. They get a lot of other cool stuff, though. They get some other cool perks.

Yeah, it gets amazing. But, yeah, it's one of those things I think that gives us a 10x return on investment. Interesting. That's really cool. So how many people are on your team? Only eight. Eight. Yeah, yeah.

So it's not like 1,000 people or something. No, no. But I think every time we've added a person, as long as they're full-time, that's part of the package. It's like most people give a gym membership, you give cleaning service. Yeah. It costs us $1,500 to $1,800 a person. For the month or? For the year.

Oh, for the year. That's it. Yeah. We're not in L.A. anymore. That's right. You're in St. Louis. I'm in St. Yeah. It costs us $1,500 to $1,800 a person. For the month or? For the year. Oh, for the year. That's it. Yeah. We're not in LA anymore. That's right. You're in St. Louis. I'm in St. Louis in Ohio. I mean, a lot of our employees are in Ohio. And so, yeah. It's a little cheaper over there. Dollars go a little further. It's one of the perks and benefits of being in the Midwest. Go a lot further. I like it, man. That's cool. And you came out with this new book. We met because you started emailing me, right? We met through Peter Voogd and we kind of reconnected at Mastermind Talks with Jason Gaynor. Yes. And I had a book that came out, School of Greatness, about six months ago. And you said, hey, you got to do some gifting for some of the bigger influencers who are helping you promote essentially, right? Yeah, I just offered you. I said, you probably got three or four people that went above and beyond. The first three or four, whether you do any gifting, let me take care of them.

I'll comp them. Yeah. And you said, talk to my girl, Sarah. Yes. She's the one that's actually making sure that all this gets done. Yes. And we had a conversation. She's like, nobody's ever talked to me about gifting.

I was planning on doing this, this, and this. Right. We were going to give like some meats and, you know. Some gift cards. I used to get like steaks and like whatever, iTunes gift cards or something. Yeah. Yeah. She's like.

So we didn't really know what to do for this type of thing. I don't think most people do. I think most people are, they're so busy running their business or they're so busy selling or leading their company or podcasts or, you know, interviewing Tony Robbins that gifting, you're probably not like when the head hits the pillow, you're not thinking about gifting. What type of gift can I give somebody? Yeah. But the power of gifting is huge.

And I'll give an example, a story. I used to have a course years ago that was a $1,000 online course. And I remember just feeling like we got to give people something like once they buy. Tangible. Yeah, like something physical is an online course. Let's give them like – send them a thank you note, congratulations, whatever, but also like a gift, something. And at the time, I was using send out cards. You know send out cards?

Yeah. And we would give them like a brownie package or some type of like cookies or whatever it was, like $20 worth of a gift, right? Yeah. Something like that. And a handwritten card and something else. And I remember someone emailed me one time saying, you know what? I was thinking about refunding this just because I wasn't using it. And not that the product was bad or anything, but that I wasn't using it. And I was just like, it's not for me because I'm not, I don't have time.

But you know what? This gift you sent me, like really, it stuck with me with me and it reminded me how good of a person you are. And I appreciated it. And so I'm not going to refund anymore. So I was like, I saved $1,000. With a $20 investment. With a $20 investment. That's a 50x.

Right? That's not bad. That's not bad. And you don't know if people are going to refund or for whatever reason, but giving is always going to be in your benefit if it's with... I didn't do it to be like, let's save refunds. You know, it was like, let's just do it because it's the right thing. Or it's, it's something that I would want to experience myself. You know what I mean? We all want to be treated VIP. We all want to be loved on. We all want to be treated special. And yeah, gifting is one of those ways that, yeah, we're all emotional human beings.

And it's amazing how that impacts people. So when did you start learning about gifting? Was this when you were doing the sales for Cutco? Yeah, it was. So I was pretty motivated. I was dating a girl at the time. Her dad was an attorney, and he was the kind of guy that all the deals seemed to flow his way, and he never seemed to be in a hurry. He would take time for lunch and...

Relaxed. Relaxed. But he owned parts of the bank and oil wells. And the real estate that he bought, all of a sudden, three years later, magically became the big development in town. You're like, what? I'm like, what is going on here?

But I also noticed when you're poor, you notice when people are generous. And so I started to see, he would find deals on stuff like noodles and buy everybody at church the next Sunday a year's supply of noodles. And I'm like, Paul, that was like 10 Gs of noodles. Wow.

He's like, I know, but people loved them. Did you see they light up? I'm like, yeah. He just gave them like four boxes of these Amish-made noodles. He's like, I know, but they needed it more than I do. Amish is big in Ohio, just to let you know. It's the largest Amish community in the world, right? It's in Ohio.

It's like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indianapolis. I think it's- Ohio, PA. Ohio is bigger. Ohio is world, right? It's in Ohio. It's like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indianapolis. I think it's- Ohio, PA. Ohio's bigger. Ohio's bigger, right? Yeah. I remember going down like, I don't know, just driving with my dad to see his clients down the farmland on the roads, two main roads, see the buggy and the horse and carriage and

just Amishville, man. I mean, it's legit, yeah. Look at the Amish butters and all the good foods. It's like the best food. And they're amazing craftsmen. Oh, great. Yeah, yeah. Half my house is filled withters and all the good foods. It's like the best food. And they're amazing craftsmen. Oh, great. Yeah, yeah. Half my house is filled with furniture from there.

Really? Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, it's crazy. That's cool. Great. Like rocking chairs, I remember. Like wooden rocking chairs are perfect. Yeah.

Yeah. We've got the cutches and tables and furniture and leather and all kinds of stuff. Exactly. Anyways. So I saw him, what I now call radical generosity. I saw him modeling it. So I went and pitched him the idea. I'm like, Paul, you have all these clients.

You're always giving them things. And why don't we do pocket knives for your clients? I think we could engrave something on these Cutco pocket knives. Because you're selling them. You're selling them. Yeah, I'm selling them. And he already bought a set for himself and his three daughters that weren't even married yet. So he bought like two grand worth of knives before.

And I'm like, Paul, this is amazing. He's like, I want to help you more, but I don't know what else I can buy. And so you never ask an entrepreneur. He wanted to help you buy more, but he's like, I've bought them for everyone already. Yeah. And so I went back and pitched him the pocket knives. He kind of leaned back in his chair. I remember it was like a Sunday morning before church, and he's like, how about the paring knives?

Could you engrave those? I'm like, I got this like weird deer and headlights look on my face. Like, you're going to give grown men paring knives. Like, that's kind of weird. about the paring knives? Could you engrave those? I'm like, I got this like weird deer and headlights look on my face. Like, you're going to give grown men paring knives. Like, that's kind of weird. What are paring knives? Educate me. Like a peeling knife. Like what you peel an apple with.

Like a little short little. Gotcha. And he's like, you're probably wondering why. And I'm like, yeah, that's weird. And he said, I found that if you take care of the entire family, everything else seems to take care of itself. And so is that what I realized? It's not for the man. It's for the family.

And he's like, I still see things I've given 30 years ago still around the kitchen. He's like, I love things that go in the kitchen. And so what about the paring knives? And I'm like, I'll sell you as many paring knives as you want. Like, sure. So I started to realize that it wasn't about the paring knife. It was a delivery vehicle for building this relationship. And it's now what we call an artifact. It's something that if you give somebody something and you do it the right way, it becomes every time they see it, it's like the knife in your kitchen.

Like you're reminded of the dinners, the experiences, the podcast, the whatever. And it's a trigger. And Paul was amazing. He was always top of mind for that phone call because everybody was always thinking about him because of his generosity. And so I started to not. So he got all the deals. all the deals he got the deals yeah and he was not doing it with strings attached like he would sometimes give somebody and i would see it come back to him like you know like he'd done it 20 years prior and all of a sudden like this opportunity came up and i'm like paul how did that happen he's like well you know i just stayed in touch and you know i'm like and he's. He actually grew up.

He was Amish, so he spoke the language. They left the Amish church when he was nine. Then he ended up going straight from – he got his GED, didn't go to high school, went straight into college, became a teacher, and then went to law school. Wow. He was a great attorney, but really he was a connector in that area. He just knew everybody, knew what was going on, and everybody picked up the phone and just loved Paul. I'm like, nobody is teaching this gifting. There's order takers.

Harry and David, hey, you want a basket with nuts in it or chocolate? Everybody's just order taking. Nobody was actually teaching this strategy of what we call strategic gifting. I started to use the gifting to get access to people. I started to use the gifting to help companies open doors and referrals and all these different things. And so that's why I sold so much because I'd go into a company, I wouldn't say, hey, Mr. Jones, would you like a set of knives for your kitchen? I would say, you have 100 sales reps. Are they generating all the referrals you want?

Are you getting the leads that you want to get? Are you getting the – if I could accelerate your sales cycle by an extra six months, you could get into that door faster. Your sales guy is good. What would that be worth to you? You'd be like, oh, my gosh, it would be worth a half a million dollars to us. Well, now all of a sudden 50 grand in knives is – Nothing. Nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Interesting. So you're going in and helping them solve their problems as opposed to trying to sell them knives. I mean, it's like anything else. Exactly. I mean, yeah, you could sell them. Yeah, you sell the product, you sell the solution. Right, right. And we realized very quickly nobody gave two rips about knives.

Right. But they did care a lot about referrals and they did care a lot about access. And making money and being generous. Yeah, yeah. I love it. We got a new book out called Giftology. And the cool thing is this book came in a bag for those watching the video on YouTube. And if you're not watching the video on YouTube, make sure to subscribe to the channel, youtube.com slash lewishouse.

But you told me you created these custom bags. The bag cost you $50. This thing is beautiful. And it's got a little string here and it's metal and leather. And then there's a book inside. Yeah, it's handmade in St. Louis. Handmade in St. Louis. It's not Amish, but it smells pretty good.

And then the book inside is beautiful as well. And this is just a galley copy, which most people don't even have hardback galley copies, which you have yourself. And I think it's beautiful. It's called Giftology, the art and science of using gifts to cut through the noise,

increase referrals, and strengthen retention. And he's got a little knife there to cut through, which is cute. But I love it, man. I love this principle, all those concepts. You know, the law of reciprocity is something I learned about when I read Influence by Robert Cialdini. And a lot of marketers talk about the law of reciprocity, giving a free gift to have someone give you their email address, that type of thing. But a lot of people use it in like a spammy, scammy way. Yes. And it's not authentic. It's not really premium. I think of the way you do it, it's like a premium level of gifting. And so let's dive in more about that. I mean,

why giftology? What's the title of giftology? What does it actually mean? Well, giftology, I mean, when you're titling a book, you're like, gosh, there's... We looked at radical generosity. I'm sure you probably had the same thing. You look at 100 different titles and we use book in a box. And I talked to Zach and Tucker and the guys, and I'm like, here's a list of what I'm thinking of. And here I'm leaning towards this radical generosity. It just feels good at the heart level. And they're like, but nobody's going to know what that means. And you're... At the end of the day, yes, it's all these solutions and strategic gifting, but you're a gifting expert. You use gifting to deepen relationships, use gifting.

So gift needs to be in the name. And people think of gifting as a warm, fuzzy, it's a nice to, not a have to, it's not a revenue generator. And the ology adds, there's a science to not a have to it's not a revenue generator and the ology adds like there's a science to this like we're wired for reciprocity we're wired um to uh to as emotional beings and so i wanted to show people yes there's that warm fuzzy authentic side but there also is this scientific there's case studies there's research that shows like when you love on people well that's why you take people to dinner to a a ballgame. You know, when you, uh, when you deepen relationships, things happen. It's true. And things move forward. And so most people do the experiential side really well, but they, they suck at saying thank you. They do. And so you did this with book in a box,

is that right? I did. Tucker, you know, Tucker launched book in a box on this podcast. Come on. No, I didn't. About a year and a half ago or two years ago, he was like, hey, man, can I come on? I got to share something I'm thinking about doing. And he talked about it for the first time. He's like, here's an email. Just email my personal email if you guys are interested. And 15 people signed up for Book in a Box. And he was in business the next day.

And he did it. A year later, he came back on and talked about it. Did he know he was going to do that? Or did you just ask a question? He was like, I'm thinking about doing this, and so if you guys want it, here, email me. I'm just going to throw it out there. Yeah, and then a year later, he goes,

I've got to come back on and talk about how your podcast made me a million dollars in this business because it launched on your podcast. So anyways, it's cool that you did it. Yeah, the book wouldn't have happened. I mean, I've been thinking about this for five years. And we had the ideas for a long time, but actually getting them out of my head onto paper and – It's challenging to write a book, man.

That's a whole other topic. But anyway, it's a fun little fact there. So let's talk about the law of reciprocity. Now, why is the law of reciprocity so powerful? Talk about this. Yeah. Well, I think that you go back into like tribal times or biblical times. Like somebody would show you an act of kindness.

Like we're wired in our DNA to want to reciprocate it back. Why is that? Well, I mean, depending upon your faith, Ben, or whatever else, I think that there's a lot of different angles you could take it with it. But I think that we're – psychologically, I think we just want to do nice things back. We want to keep the scales even and we want to take care with it. But I think that we're, psychologically, I think we just want to do nice things back. We want to keep the scales even and we want to take care of people. And so, I think that there's that element. And I think that there's an element of, you know, when you give somebody a gift, every time they use it, they're reminded that somebody did something nice for them. So, there's that tangible element of a continuous reminder of wanting to even the scales. I'm not a psychologist,

so I can't go into all the different reasons. But I think that the interesting thing is it's not a Western culture thing. It's for the last 10,000 years. All over the world. All over the world. And you go back to the Old Testament, a gift ushers you into the presence of the great that's a proverb that's good i like the greats in there yeah yeah and so um and so i think that uh it's you know it goes back thousands of years it's not just a it's just not and it's universal it's not just like american culture or whatever no which i love um so you talk about time and why it's someone's most precious commodity. So how does gifting and playing with time and helping people?

It's part of my secret sauce. I think that a lot of times people, they're like, well, they'll wait for a referral to happen and that's when they send a gift. Then it becomes a tit for tat. Like, hey, you did something for me and I have to immediately do something and it devalues. It doesn't feel authentic, right? Well, it's like, imagine if... It's like you have to give the gift. Yeah, it's obligatory. And I think that when you, if you look at most executives, you're,

you know, people, I hate the word, like, I want to pick your brain. I mean, how many times do you hear that? All the time. All the time. And so, basically, what it basically means is I want your time for free. Yes. And so, when... The worst. It's the worst. And so when somebody comes to me or somebody comes... When I sit down with somebody, and I do this probably 200 to 300 times a year, I sit down with them.

They're a potential client. They're a potential prospect, friend, whatever. An hour of their time is worth $100 an hour, $500 an hour, $1,000 an hour. So whether they ever refer me business, they gave me an hour that they could have spent with their kid, with their wife, on their business. So I say, thank somebody for their time. So I send out knives or whatever, and I thank them for carving out the time. I'll send them a $200 to $300 gift. I love how he's carving out the time. Yeah. It's a nice little tie-in. Thematically, people like that. But when you honor somebody's

time and you don't ask for anything in return, you say, whether we ever do anything, you gave me 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 15 minutes, and the gift is no strings attached. And it's not like, hey, let's get together again. Most people ruin the gift. You recommend me now to whatever your client is. Yeah, they want to put strings attached. And so I think when you honor somebody's time, I saw Paul do that all the time. After something happened, he would send them a nice note or a gift or whatever else. And so I started to do that as my standard practice. When I sit down with somebody, whether they're going to be a client

or not... And it's amazing how all of a sudden 10 years later, that person comes back around. And now they're... Maybe at the time, they weren't even a relevant prospect or client or referral partner. But now they're at another company. Or now they started a podcast that blew up. And 3 years later, it's got 2. half million downloads a month um but 1.3 not that much oh i'm sorry only 1.3 close only 1.3 million i mean that's crazy so i so i i think that honoring somebody's time is one of the most valuable and in our hectic world that's that's the commodity that's uh that we're all you know kind of fighting I love it, man. I love that. Talk about why you don't like the term token of appreciation. Yeah, I hate that word. Would you ever say that your relationship is a token relationship?

No. Then why would you use the word token when you're describing the... Let's go back 2000 years. Kings would give a gift based upon the value of the relationship so if you you're a king i'm a king and we want to partner up or we're thinking about like some project or conquering this other kingdom i'm going to give you like a thousand steers because this relationship is really important it's a big deal and in our western culture 2016 we say you know thanks so much for the million-dollar referral. Here's a token of our appreciation.

Oh, my gosh. To me, it's a swear word. Like a small gift or something. Yeah. I'm almost kind of embarrassed about this gift. So if I call it a token, maybe it somehow makes it okay that I sent you a gift card from Starbucks or I sent you a $30 bottle of wine and you just sent me a $30,000 profit deal. I hate the word token. I say this is an artifact. This is a symbol of our friendship. Interesting.

And I think that that's way more powerful. Meaningful. Way more meaningful. And when you start thinking about it as an artifact, I want this person to maybe pass this down someday. That's cool. To keep it forever. Yeah. I mean, let's go back to the Amish reference, an heirloom. I hope this stays in their family for the next few generations.

That's cool. That's what my hope is with, you know, with a book and a bag. That's for my kids. But if I'm going to do a book, like that's 15 years worth of effort. Like $50 for a bag is nothing. It's great, man. Yeah, it's great. Okay, let's talk about the type of gifts that you should be giving.

Now, you mentioned, so should you be giving a gift if someone gives you a referral then, or do you give it to them before? So you don't tie it to the referral. So there's what I call inspirational gifting, the just because. So I have four times a year. I pick different times throughout the year. I'll send our top 250 relationships a gift out of the blue just because. Now, I'd be lying if I didn't say it. I hope that over the next 10 years that something comes from it.

That's not like we're running a not-for-profit. But there's no strings attached. These gifts aren't cheap either. Yeah. It's not insignificant. But they're the same price as a dinner or a round of golf. But most people's minds, they'll spend $300 on a dinner and then they want to spend $30 on the gift. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense.

They need to be congruent. So I think that a gift after referral feels very transactional. And most people would say relationships are their most important asset. So you don't want to come across as transactional. So either do the gift ahead of time before the referral happens and maybe referral happens or wait six months after the referral and tie it to a just because, not a – I call it planned randomness. I know when the gift is going out, but it's not tied to a transaction. It's tied to a relationship. It's funny.

I actually did that with my book when I had all these big influencers help promote. I was just in the madness of the book launch and traveling and speaking and just doing every interview every day. I wanted to give a gift, but I just didn't have the time. So I waited like six months later. And then you reached out. You're like, hey, let's help you do this. And so I did it. It actually worked in your favor.

Yeah, it was like because I was like, you know, just in the mess of it. It worked in my favor because it was so much longer after they promoted. That's one time where procrastination was your friend. It really paid off, yeah. But now that I know the science behind it, I'll be much more prepared and Sarah will help set me up to win. When you have that

much, that many people promoting at one time I think it's important to take care of everyone as well and just let them know, hey, I appreciate it. And if you can do that six months before the launch? That's where it's at. And that's what I'm going to be planning for the next time too. Yeah, you don't want it to be tied together. Like, hey, sports teams, our sports clients are like, hey, we got these renewals coming up and we want to send this gift out a month before the renewal.

And I'm like, you really think somebody's going to take that $200 gift and renew a half-million-dollar sponsorship package with you? You think that they're that dumb. Right, right. That's insulting. They're not going to spend half-million dollars because you sent them a $200 gift. It's actually going to work against you. They're going to get it and be like, is this guy serious? But if it showed up two years before that renewal and you loved on

the whole way now all of a sudden it's like i want to renew because of how i've been treated yeah that's cool um so talk about the the levels of gifting the price the price range edible versus non-edible what's the perfect gift um, there's no like magic bullet. I mean, if you look at the book, we boiled things down to kind of 10 criteria. And our rule of thumb, people are like, what should I spend on the gift? And so for your top 20% of your relationships could be employees, clients, suppliers, board of directors, whatever. Our rule of thumb is, and this is pretty much every industry. I don't care if you're financial services.

I don't care if you're insurance. People are like, I can't do that. There's always ways around and playing within the rules and still doing things classy. People use the example of like, well, I have Walmart as a client. I can't give a gift to Walmart. And I'm like, are all of your clients Walmart? Or do you have another 99 clients that would be appreciative? But most people get scared of it, so they don't even touch it. So the rule of thumb is whatever you'd spend on a round of golf, ballgame tickets, cigars, out drinks. Dinner. Dinner.

You should be willing to spend on a tangible artifact, something that's going to be around not 10 hours. It's going to be around hopefully 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. So our sweet spot for gifting of what we recommend. Tangible, not food. I mean, food, number one. I knew that you drank juice, so I brought you juice. Yes.

I don't really view that as a gift. That's just kind of like a cool thing to do because I'm coming up and we're going to be chatting and I figured everybody- It's a token of your appreciation. No. I'm just kidding.

There are times where that food is appropriate. It's just a generous thing. Yeah, but I don't view that as a gift. Yeah, yeah. But most people would be like, hey, I just sent you a cool gift. I'm like, you sent me some juice. Yeah, it's not. You're not going to be bragging about it 10 years a gift. Yeah, yeah. But most people would be like, hey, I just sent you a cool gift. I'm like, you sent me some juice.

Yeah, it's not. You're not going to be bragging about it 10 years from now. No, no. Interesting. So not edible in most situations. Number one, you talk about a cost per impression when you're measuring advertising and marketing dollars. You spent, let's say, on a steak dinner $100, $200. Now you get the relationship, but they're going to go on 100 steak dinners that year.

So why is your steak dinner any different than the other 99? You're consuming food, it's gone, and you spent $200 on one impression. Not a very good ROI. And so we say $100 to $1,000 per gift. I buy dinner for pretty much every time I go out for everyone I'm with. Should I just stop paying for dinner for people? No. I mean, there is a time and place for entertaining and obviously for your team or for your people. But most people put all of their eggs in that one basket and it's become almost obligatory. I'm sure there's some people that just kind of take advantage of your generosity and it's kind of like, oh, Lewis, he's the man. He's going to take care of that. Yeah. And I don't even... I just take it before it even comes. I just... That's just a classy thing to do. Yeah, and I don't even, you know, I just take it before it even comes. I just... That's just a classy thing to do.

Yeah, yeah. And so our rule of thumb is $100 to $1,000 per gift. We go as low as... $100 to $1,000. Yep. Yep. Yep.

So it's not... For your top 20% tier relationships. Yep. It's not for everybody. But not less than $100. I mean, I just... It depends where you're at,

which money you're making. If you're making $40,000 a year and you got 100 people to send something to. Then you probably, in our opinion, if you can't do 100 gifts well, do 10 well. Interesting. And so, Boyle, a lot of times people are like, I have 1,000 people to do it. I'm like, well, where's most of your revenue coming?

Yeah. Maybe it's the top 10, 20, 50, 100. Most people try to do, they blank it out and try to do the same thing for everybody. And so, they end up spending money that have no impact. Yeah. So, they send everybody a PEZ dispenser and they're like, gifts don't work. I didn't get any thank yous. Or they do promotional gifts, which is the worst.

I get sent so much junk. Trinkets and trash. I will never wear this T-shirt. I will never wear this whatever, wristbands. It's like you want me to wear these things, but I wear a black V-neck. Give me a nice v-neck black v-neck and i'll wear it you know no logo on it no it's maybe just on the tag that only i could see you know even then put your logo on it exactly your name on that's what we teach in the book is

a is it a gift is it or is it a marketing tool because a gift is recipient focused a a promotional gift or a marketing tool is brand-focused. And most people try to blend both of them together. And it doesn't work. It's being trash. It's trash because the person who receives it is like, I don't want to be an advertisement for their brand. And their spouse is like, we're not putting this out.

Are you kidding me? That's tacky. But most people in their head, they think, I got this great idea. I'm going to give out these thousand gifts. And they're going to be... They got the logo the size of a softball and the chest of the polo. And they're like, they don't realize most of those are getting re-gifted to Goodwill before they even get home. And so you only spent $50 on whatever it was, but it ends up not getting used.

But no one wears it. Nobody wears it. But they check a box and they did their marketing for the day. And then they wonder why they're not getting referrals, why the person's not sending thank yous. And it's like, well, you'd never... And I tell people use the example, they'd never do this in their personal life.

They never go to a wedding. You never go to a wedding and get this nice Tiffany's vase and say compliments of Lewis Howes. Here you go, my best friend, here's the gift. I want you to think about me every single day. You'd engrave their name and their date of the wedding on it. And yet in business, we do things we'd never do in our personal lives. And because of that, we waste our money. But the challenge is nobody will write the note that says,

your gift sucks. I regifted it. It actually devalued the relationship. But nobody's honest in their thank you notes. Imagine... It's true. But it goes in their head. They're thinking about it. Because we don't want to be mean. We don't want to be rude. We're like, oh, they tried to do something nice yeah it's not the thought that counts i told you it's a thoughtful thought that counts and and most people are like they want to mail it in and they're like oh it's the thought that counts i'm like no it's not like you would not use that in any other part of your business but for some reason like gifting is you get this

excuse to give lame ass gifts no like that's not, that's not how gifting works. If you want it to be a gift and you want it to be congruent with who you are and you say you're world-class, then either write a really nice note and don't do a gift or do it right. That's, those are the two options that most people have never been taught that. Like you don't go to business school and there's no gifting class. Well, now there's going to be. Well, possibly. Now you're creating an online course of gifting. Of course.

Of course. Udemy course. I like it. So it's not the thought that counts. It's the thoughtful thought that counts. Yep. It's a good one. I like that.

So don't say you shouldn't even send anything at all or just a handwritten note or a very thoughtful gift. Yep. Yep. Unless it's a... If you're the Dallas Mavericks and you want to hand out 20,000 t-shirts, by all means, have at it. Put your logo on it and pass it on.

And wear it for that one game. It's white out or black out or whatever. But that's not a gift. That's a promotional... That's a promotional item. And that's fine. And if you're at a trade show and you want to hand out pens, I don't think it's a good use of resources. I think you'd be better off to spend that $5,000 on your top 20 relationships and do something really cool for them that they're not expecting. But most people, they don't want to do that. I'll give you an example of a thoughtful

gift that worked for me. Maybe it wasn't a gift, but a thoughtful way of connecting with me. Again, I'm sure like you said, a lot of people email me or message me and ask to like pick my brain or take time. And like you said, time is the most valuable thing for a lot of us. And I'm still focused and committed to what I'm doing. And at one point in my podcast, I said, listen, you know, school for me just didn't work. And although college was great for sports and connecting and communication and just becoming a human being and just interacting with people, it was great for that. Like I didn't learn any other like information from my classes that I applied to what I'm doing now. So I said at one point, like, you know, don't go back to business school.

Find the mentor that – find someone in your life or in the world that really inspires you in the business they've created and then go. Don't ask them to work for them for free because I get that all the time. A lot of people say, I'll move to LA. I'll work for you for three months. I'll give you six months of my life, whatever. But I just want to learn everything I can from you. I don't want to pick your brain and then just be by your side.

I'm like, I don't have the time to teach you everything first off. And then you're just going to leave and go do something else. Like why would I put my energy so you can learn from me and what, do some social media tweets or something for me in return? Like it doesn't pay off, you know, and I'm charging 10 grand an hour for coaching. How does that pay off? Yeah, it doesn't. And so I said, instead you should, like I would have, if I had the money when I was like younger, I would pay someone 10, 20 grand to work for them for a year and say, listen, I will work for you and I'll pay you 20 grand.

And essentially, I'm going to work my butt off for you. I'm going to do whatever you tell me. I'm going to research whatever you tell me to do, anything you tell me to do. I just want to be able to access and be around, you know, once a week for like 30 minutes. Yeah. And just be able to listen and kind of be around. And then whatever you need me to do, I'll do it. And I made that point

and like a few months later, a guy dropped off a box, like a custom box essentially, with a five-page letter that essentially said, I want to pay you 10 grand to come work for you for three months. I'll give you everything I got.

Here are all my skills. Here are all my weaknesses. Here's the things I can't really do well at all. And I'm putting it out there for you right now. But here's what I'm really confident in and what I can do for you. And I'll do whatever it takes. And I'll pay you 10 grand. And I was like,

now this is how you do it. I still waited. I was like, I don't even know if I want to take this. But I was like, this is how you do it. I still waited. I was like, I don't even know if I want to take this, but I was like, this is how you do it. Yeah. Because it made me think about it. It made me talk about it. I talked to my whole team about it. It moved you.

I tweeted it out there. It moved me. I was like, this guy got creative. And then I didn't respond for a few days, and he kept emailing me and following up. Hey, I dropped this thing off. Just wanted to make sure you got it. Would love to discuss it. Pleasantly persistent.

I love it. Persistent, persistent. And then finally, like a month or two later, I was like, all right, let's jump on a call and just like feel it out. And then we talked. And then a couple of days later, I was like, okay, let's do this for three months and check It's a good experiment nonetheless. I mean, experiment.

Yeah. And so, yeah, he's about to start here. He's been doing some part-time stuff. Oh, this hasn't even happened yet. It just happened. And he, we've been like, he's been doing some research for my next book already. But he was finishing up school, master's program. And he starts in a couple days or something.

So yeah, he's going to pay me the $10,000. And then we'll do the work for three months and see where it goes. Yeah. But I'm like, that's how you, if you really want something, if you want to learn. And this guy's going to learn more in three months than he would anywhere for two years, in my opinion, because now I'm committed to this guy. I'm like, I appreciate the thoughtfulness. I've already given him things that I know it's going to put him 10 years above everyone

else, his age group. You're giving him the shortcuts. I'm giving him stuff that I really like now. I'm like, here, work on this, work on this. Not just manage my social media, but let's really dive in together. Go get me coffee or give me juice. No, this is like you're working with me on some projects that are going to be really impactful for a lot

of people and it's going to help you in a couple of years. In 10 grand versus, I mean, think about the ROI. I mean, he completely changed the paradigm because I mean, if you're charging $10,000 for an hour of coaching. He's going to get it for three months. You know what I mean? It's like, I feel like he was the first one to be bold enough. I feel like I'm getting screwed out of the deal, but really it's

great. It's going to be a win-win. And that's why I'm doing it because he's going to help me a lot, save me a lot of time and I'm going to teach him a lot. So it's going to be amazing. But that's the thing. And that's something that you do really well. It's like, you're really creative with, you're very intentional. Even the bag and like the book, and that's something you do really well. It's like you're really creative with – you're very intentional. Even the bag and the book, it's very intentional with everything you do. And the way you reached out to me, it was like, hey, even if you don't use our service, which is essentially premium gifting. Gift strategy and logistics. Gift strategy and logistics.

Like I just want to help you out, and here's essentially like $500 to $1,000 worth of gifts that you can use. We never talk again. And for me, that's like, okay, if someone's willing to put money or time or energy on the line and be really thoughtful to help save me time and energy, it's like I'm willing to at least take a look. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and we run, I mean, some mutual friends and run in the same circle. I do this all the time, but I'm like, this is almost like my gambling money. I go to Vegas, like I gamble on people.

I'm like, I never know how it's going to pay off. I never know how it's going to pay off. And sometimes it's immediate. Sometimes it's literally some of our best relationships. It took seven years to develop. Like we planted the seed, nothing happened. I wasn't mad. Like in many cases, people come back and like,

do you remember X, Y, and Z? And I'm like, I wish I could say yes. Well, like gifts that you gave them? Gifts I gave them or gifts I gave for them to give to their most – like that's one of my most impactful questions is who are the three people that are most important to you that I can make you look like a million bucks to? Like a hero. I want to be your – yeah. I want to make you look like a hero to your mentors. And people are like, oh, my gosh.

And what's weird is you would think that they're already appreciating those people, but there's a lot of times people, they have good intentions, but they just never get around to it. And so when you make it so easy that all they have to do is say yes and send the names. That's it. And they don't have to spend anything. They don't have to make a decision. We write the notes. We do everything. We take care of everything.

And they're like, oh, my gosh. I've been racking my brain. And people get how to get to the point yeah what to give how to give they don't want to look silly and so they just don't do it and so we kind of take that barrier away um you know it's uh it's amazing what's what comes from that now what's we talk about shock and awe in the book and you say there's a formula to shock and awe what does that what does that mean well the uh the formula most people ask themselves what the least they can get away with and do and you know paul was a great person that would say what's the most i can do and so you know when we you know we've had clients where they're like hey we've been trying to get in this

door and it's what's the most i can do without going broke yeah because you're not gonna do the most and be like well i just spent a fifty thousand dollars no no but i like like what you know cameron harold the mutual friend um first time i met him i heard him speak at an eo event i'm like this dude i don't want him i don't want to be a groupie i want him to be my mentor yes and so i ended up finding out that he was a huge brooks brothers fan he was coming to cleveland and gonna be speaking and i um i told him i was a jose bank guy when i was talking to him and I asked him for a shirt size and he looked at me kind of weird like, this dude got like a man crush on me,

like this is weird. And so when he came into town, like his flight got delayed and we were supposed to go to dinner and a ball game, kind of the normal like routine. And you could tell like he was like, why did I ever agree to this? Because like all those flights got delayed.

And five hours beforehand, he didn't know this, but I went up to Brooks Brothers and I said, here's the guy's sizes. I want one of everything in the fall collection. Wow. Shirts, jackets, sweaters, everything. How much is that? Seven grand. But you build a relationship for life, huh?

Yeah. So we went to the GM at the Ritz and said, you got a VIP coming in town. He's one of the top business coaches in the world. Would you like to do something crazy and special? And of course, they would have, it's the Ritz. They said said yes. So he merchandised his hotel room to look like a Brooks Brothers store. Oh, my gosh. And so when he went to check in and went, like, we're in the lobby waiting for him. I mean, my business partner. My business partner just bought 50% of Ruling Group. And he's the CFO guy.

I'm the visionary. He's like, dude, you're either crazy or a genius. Like, I'm sweating. So grand, yes. And so he comes back down. And before his shoulders were all slouchy his eyes were like the size of silver dollars like john whatever you want to talk about for as long as you want to talk about i'm all ears he's like i've never had anybody he's like i've

texted pictures to john to julius for customer service books he's like this is unbelievable now he's you know from that point forward the the trust the trust relationship i mean you know his wife his me to his. His attention, his level of like opening up doors for anything is probably a whole lot. You name a client and he's willing to open the door for them. I mean, doors I could open. Yes, of course. What do you need?

It's anything. Anything. And here's the kicker. So people are like, why don't I have $7,000? And the simple fact is there's a lot of companies that are listening to your show that probably spent $70,000 on a trade show and maybe got like five good leads that didn't produce anything right and they didn't think anything about that time energy resources yep so people are like well i don't have seven thousand dollars i'm like well that's fine how much do you think it cost me and they're like i

don't know seven grand i know they said like five grand i'm like no i'm like zero like what do you mean like did he not keep the stuff and I said, yeah, he kept it. He kept like $2,000 worth of clothes because he packed up. He picked out what he wanted. And he came back to me and said, John, either I'm going to guesstimate and add 30% of what I think those cost, or you're going to tell me, and I'm going to write a check for that. Because the personalization, the act of what you did was the gift. I can't let you buy the product as well.

So it cost me nothing. Zero. He paid you buy the product as well. So it cost me nothing. Zero. He paid you for. He paid me for the. He insisted. He's like, I'm either going to send you the money and gas and overestimate. Or. You can tell me.

Or he can tell me. And the rest of the clothes just went. You know, the GM took it to the Brooks. And yeah, they put it back on my credit card. Wow. But it was the. That kind of shock and awe. Like if I had bought him a shirt.

One shirt. Oh, thanks, bro. Yeah. But. That was very nice of you. Yeah. Like if I had bought him a shirt. One shirt. Oh, thanks, bro. Yeah. That was very nice of you. Yeah. But, you know, and hey, he got my size right. And I'm sure he would have remembered it. But to this day, I mean, he's got jackets that, like,

it sounds, you know, like a man crush. But he'll take pictures like, hey, I'm getting ready to fly to Dubai. And he's, like, taking a selfie in the jacket, sending it off to me. So, like, you know, now eight years later, he still remembers because it's tangible and because of the shock and all. So it's asking yourself the question, what's the most I can do?

Most people say, what's the least I can get away with? And that asking yourself, what's the most I can do? It opens the realm of possibilities to a $50 bag for a book. Most people would say, well, the hardcover,

that's enough. That's enough. And then you play like everybody else. Now, is it ever too much? Is it like, could there have been an extent where like, okay, this is just too far? For sure. This isn't shock and awe. This is you're crazy. Don't ever

talk to me again. Yeah. Anytime you're going to be unique and out of the box, you're going to run the risk of that. And so I would say that we probably get 1% of our gifts back where somebody either is pissed off or going through a divorce. They hate the gift.

They list off 20 things. You just don't know what's going on in that person's life or what they're dealing with business-wise. Sometimes we send a gift, they're dealing with fraud in their company. And so a gift shows up and it's like, just bad timing, dude. So most people get... And if you're really high-level prospecting going after millionaires and billionaires, you might get 20% back. And most people focus on the 20% versus the 80% that work.

Yeah, yeah. And so yes, you can go too far. But I would say most people tend to go play too little, not too big. I like that. And so, not to say that there's not times where, like, Louis Vuitton bags are going to look like a bribe. Like, we're not trying to look like a bribe. Not giving people a new car.

Yeah. Although some people are, you know, if they're a big referral partner, I know that I think Chandler Bolt gave away – I think Hal actually, Hal Elrod from Miracle Morning was the biggest referrer and he ended up getting a Tesla. Wow. Or a Lexus or something. That's like more of affiliate marketing and like part of the prizes or whatever. Yeah.

That's cool. But it's – yeah, it's like Oprah. Like, hey, you get a car. Yeah, that's great. yeah it's like gopher like hey you get a car yeah that's great um now tell me about the story about um posing to your wife because i didn't hear the full story but sarah said she read it in in the book yeah what happened well i had to get approval to put that in the book because for a long time it was like a a wedge in our marriage it was like it was a pretty um so i don't know how much time we have i'll tell you the very abbreviated version but i you know

when my wife started and i started dating she moved moved to Ohio. It was about 8, 9 years ago. And I went through... I'd sold half the business thinking it was to grow. And I found out that my assistant was stealing from me. And then I went through an IRS audit. And then I invested in real estate. And it was 2007, 2008. Everything started to melt down. So I went from the king of everything to living on $1,000 a month. I just battened down the hatches. My business partner didn't take a salary for 18 months. It was bad. Not the exact time you want to start a deep, meaningful relationship. She got the worst of dating an entrepreneur. Wow. So when it came time to do the engagement, she'd moved back to St. Louis. But we were talking and we went through some rocky times.

But she was coming back for Valentine's Day. And she's expecting a dinner, but not anything big. And so I was like, this is the time I want to get engaged. And I'd been planning it for four months. And if you're a sap like I am, the movie The Notebook, if you've ever seen it. Sure, sure. Probably more of a female movie, but I wear my heart on my sleeve. And so I wanted to recreate the movie for her.

Wow. Of The Notebook. And so I took our story. Did she like the movie as well? She loved the movie. Gotcha. So it's like one of our movies. So I wrote in this leather, like real high-end leather journal, like 50 pages of our story,

remembering things that I knew she thought I'd forgotten. And then she had one at the time where the iPod, the mini was hot. So I read it to her so she could listen to the story and read it. And so the plan was she was going to be in St. Louis flying in after work on Friday night. And so my brother went to film school. We flew in. The plan was we'd fly in the morning of since we're already past security. And we went to a bathroom stall.

And he would transform me into an 85-year-old man. It looked like I gained 100 pounds. I had latex makeup, false teeth. It took three hours. In the bathroom? In the bathroom. So I'm lifting my legs up. There's not two sets of feet in a bathroom stall in an airport.

And so I'd arranged with Continental to be sitting on the plane next to her. So she was supposed to... My brother delivers this box to her saying, John wanted you to have this and it got lost in the mail. So he flew me down here to find it. So she opens it up, listens to the first half and the second half of our story. And it gets to the end of the story and at 30,000 feet.

So she's reading it on the plane. She'd be listening to it and reading it on the second half. With her instructions of like. Yeah, listen to the first half on the ground and then listen to the second half in the air. And it starts to talk about, you know, growing old together. We love me one of this this and it starts to describe and i'm sitting and i had arranged with continental to be sitting on the plane next to her and she didn't know you

were sitting next to her she had no idea that i'd be sitting how does she not know because i'm like because i look like i like a nascar jacket brute cologne velcro like every detail like this old casio watch nothing nothing looked like It looked like I was 85. Wow. And so the plan was, if you're a Shawshank Redemption fan, I'd sealed the back half of the notebook with wax and I'd carved out room for this ring so I could get down on one knee at 30,000 feet. Wow.

And then when we landed, her mom and sister and a whole family had driven nine and a half hours and was in a stretch Hummer with my family. Shut up. Waiting for us. And then we had 200 people of our closest friends. And I'd ran out the top level of one of the top restaurants. It was my cousin-owned in Cleveland. So that was how it was supposed to go down.

So everything was going perfect. The morning of, we do a makeup run. We go fly into St. Louis. We get changed. I'm in a different part of the airport. She shows up, gets the box. She's listening to it. And I go to get escorted on the plane because it's for old people and people with kids.

With a wheelchair. Yeah. Well, and I go to get escorted on the plane because it's for old people and people with kids. With a wheelchair. Yeah. Well, except I'm walking. And so I get right to the jetway to hand my ticket, and I collapsed. What? And so my brother's like, he's playing like the old guy, and they roll me over, and I'm like, there's blood everywhere. What happened? You fainted or what?

Well, and so Lindsay's like, why is the old guy? Where's the old guy's people? Like, what's going on? And so another pilot comes off the plane, another plane, and they're like, why is the old guy – where's the old guy's people? Like this is – like what's going on? And so another pilot comes off the plane, another plane, and they're like, it's an old guy. He's having a heart attack. They pull the defibrillator off the wall, and they start to cut the clothes off, pull things back. Now, meanwhile, Lindsay's – This is before you go on the plane.

This is before I go on the plane. Oh, my gosh. So she's like, oh, my gosh, that's John, and she like melts down. Like she goes from like being on like Cloud 9. She's always you? She realizes it's me, and she's like, oh, my gosh. Like she goes from like being on like cloud nine. She realizes it's me and she's like, oh my gosh. Like she just freaked out. They built a wall of people around me.

They put the defibrillator on me and it says to shock me. So they shock me, bounce off the ground. I'm throwing up. They can't stabilize me. So meanwhile, there's a guy getting on an airplane in 2008. Guess what? You know, like who's getting a phone call? FBI.

So there's cops and everybody's showing up like, what the heck is going on here? Like they're interrogating people. My brother, over in the corner showing him the ring like he was going to propose, like this isn't a terrorist. They can't stabilize me. They put me on a respirator, put me into the ambulance. Now, meanwhile, Lindsay's in the back of a cop car following the ambulance with my brother. She's like, what is going on? What is going on? My brother's texting my mom, like party's off. John had a heart attack. We're on the way to the hospital. So she finds out from the cop that I was going to propose to her. She's crying.

She's praying. She's just like a mess. So they take me to the closest hospital. They put me on a breathing machine. They run every test under the sun. Are you unconscious? I'm unconscious. Wow.

I don't remember from about when I started walking. I remember from there to like the next morning. Oh, my gosh. So the next morning, I wake up and they're like, basically, the doctor's like, you're 100% okay. You're going to be fine, but you're really lucky because I had done this really crazy health cleanse. January, February, I'd always go to a yoga retreat or do something. And I had eliminated all carbs. Well, that day, I didn't eat or drink anything because I was nervous.

And I'm in an airport and I have latex makeup. So I don't want to mess with the makeup. You can't breathe. You can't breathe. Yeah. And so I had a low blood sugar seizure that got misdiagnosed by the machine. And so when I got shocked, my system was already really weak and it shut everything down. They're like, you could have died. Holy cow.

was already really weak and it shut everything down they're like you could have died like holy cow so six days later on an airplane with no disguise flying back to ohio um we listened to the rest of it she didn't know she was in the back i got i got down on one knee we're crying she said yes um but the kicker is is that for a long time i love this story i'm like wanting to tell the world i'm like this is like better than Romeo and Juliet. I live. Right. And she's like, you don't understand. That was a nightmare.

I hated that. I don't want to ever talk about it. Wow. Like, yes, I want to marry you, but no, I hate that story. And for the first three years of marriage, like I was amazing gifting in business world, but I was like bitter. Like, I almost died for you. And what I realized was, and this is the last chapter in the book, is Lindsay hates surprises.

And I made the gift all about how cool I was and the story. And if I had pulled it off, it probably would have been fine. But in reality, she would have liked a nice romantic dinner, maybe a walk on the beach, something. She's a farm girl. She likes nice things, but she's a simple girl. And I made the gift all about me. And I didn't think about what would they want. What did she want?

I made it about what I wanted, the cool story, the cool surprise. You got what you wanted. I got what I wanted. But I also, like, I mean, she was pissed for a long time. And so I finally came back and I apologized to her multiple times saying, you know, like, I suck. I made the gift about me, not about you. And I think in business, we do that.

We make the gift about how cool we are versus about the recipient. We make the gift about our brand versus about the other person. And I'm like, wow, this is a pretty powerful point that it took me three years of marriage and butting heads on this issue to realize it's not about me, it's about the other person if it's really a gift. And so it was... Yeah. I love it, man.

It's a great story. A couple final questions and then I've got to wrap it up. How important is the presentation of the gift? Wrapped? Unwrapped? Super important. You never give a Rolex in a paper bag. That's my analogy. It's like when you go to a nice restaurant and it's like the food just tastes better when it's prepared well and it's presented well. And not in every situation. There's always people like,

what about this? I'm like, okay, that's an anomaly or that worked because of whatever. But in general, the details matter. And so the gift wrap makes you get excited in the presentation. It's like a book. If I sent you a Kinko's staple copy, same words, but completely different presentation of the book. And so I think that, yeah,

I think that a lot of people will do like, maybe it's a nice gift, but they don't handwrite the card. They just type it or they don't do the right packaging or the right box. And they think it's good enough. What if your handwriting is horrible? Is it okay to have someone else?

Because I literally, no matter how hard I try, it just looks like it's a two-year-old. Yeah. I mean, there are times where somebody else will handwrite for me. Gotcha. So I do think they handwrite. Yeah. But I do think that even sloppy handwriting is better than tight. More meaningful. It's more meaningful.

Yeah. Okay. And when somebody gets something from you, they're like... And you hear stories all the time where the president of the company sends two lines to an employee and then the president's there 20 years later at the person's house and it's framed in the bathroom. I've talked to multiple CEOs where they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't even remember writing that. How meaningful it was, though.

But how meaningful it was to the other person. So I think that, yeah, I think the presentation matters. Wow. I like it. And what's the 30-day challenge? So I think that most people will say, if they're like anybody, whether you're a guy or a gal, but you're thinking either, Hey, I don't have time for this or John, you're super creative. You must just be wired for this. So that's like your thing. Um, and what I tell them is I'm a farm boy from Ohio. Like I didn't grow up around like amazing gifts. Like my parents were hardworking. They gave what

they could, but they, like, I didn't learn this growing up. And I think that, um, one of the most important things we can do. And I know that, you know that Tim Ferriss was one of the first backers of the Five Minute Journal. And I think that the more you can have a system where you're thinking and focusing on gratitude, and I call it a muscle. It's a muscle that you can... The gratitude muscle that you can work where you're thinking about, who would I not have a business without? Who would I not have these opportunities without? Who's poured into me over the last 2, 5, 10, 15, 20 years? When you start to think about who you're grateful for and who you need to show gratitude to, all of a sudden, and you make it about them versus about you, I think anybody can be creative

when it comes to gifting. People that use the excuse like, oh, with my spouse, I just suck at gifting. No, you just don't put as much thought and intention into gifting your wife or your husband as you do your business. Because if you focused on it every day... You get good at it. You get pretty dang good at it. Even the most uncreative people. So I think that 30-day challenge is getting into the mindset every day, even if it's just for five minutes. I think the five-minute journal is a great way to do that. What are you most grateful for in your life recently? Oh, man, that's a great question.

I mean, I have three daughters under five that are amazing. And so we have a seven-month-old. And I would say that my wife has taken the brunt of, you know, not the nursing and caring for, but she's like, John, you need sleep. And we need sleep. You know, if you want to, you can go sleep somewhere else just so you can get some rest. Because I got pneumonia like six weeks ago. Wow. And with the travel and the book launch and we just bought a manufacturing company to start doing our own custom gifts and whatever else.

And so there's a lot on the plate that are all good things. that I'm super grateful for. You know, she stepped up being sleep deprived and just holding down the fort when I'm out, you know, touring the country and speaking and whatever else. That's cool. I like it. This is the three truths question. It's the last day for you, and the book is gone,

and everything you've ever created is gone, but you have a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things that you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life that you want to pass on to whoever wants to read it. Yeah. Three truths. What would your three truths be?

Um, that, uh, you'll never regret giving more than is reasonable. Uh, that's, that's a core thing for me. I think that,

uh, you know, to, to, to not love others, uh, the way that you want to be loved, but to love them the way that they want to be loved. And the third one, I wasn't prepared for this question. So these are very candid. They're non-prepped.

Yeah, they're non-prepped. I would say that we are all created with a purpose. We are all created with a purpose. And for me, that's to live out and share my faith. But I think that whether you believe in God or creator, I think that there's no accidents and we are all here for a purpose. I like it. Well, before I ask the final question, make sure to go pick up the book, Giftology, The Art and Science of Using Gifts to Cut Through the Noise, Increased Referrals and Strength and Retention by John Rulon.

And you can get the book on Amazon or where is the book website? Giftologybook.com. Giftologybook.com. And where do you hang out the most online? Where can we connect with you personally? I mean, you go to Rulon Group, which is kind of our site to kind of learn a little bit about who we are, what we do. R-U-H-L-I-N group.com. What about you personally on social media?

Do you hang out in one place? I'm probably a Facebook guy as much as anything. I know Gary Vee and everybody's just got a Snapchat account. I can't say that I have any idea what I'm doing with it. I have thought about doing a Snapchat of these are good gifts, these are horrible gifts. That's cool. I like that. But right now, Facebook would probably be the main place.

Well, before I ask the final question, John, I want to acknowledge you for your generosity. You really set me up to win in a big way after my book launch without any expectations, and it meant a lot to me. It also strengthened so many powerful relationships for me that I probably would have messed up. Maybe not messed up, but just not done the right way or an intentional, loving, thoughtful way. I want to acknowledge you for your generosity with me personally, but also with your consistent, intentional goodwill that you put out in the

world. And I think there needs to be more people like you who are thoughtful about how they can be of service to the people they care about the most, as opposed to neglect the people we care about the most. So I acknowledge you for all that you do. I acknowledge you for how you put this together and I'm excited for our relationship in the future. So I appreciate it,

man. Thanks, man. The final question is what's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is, uh, I would say that somebody that, uh, is able to, um, have the people that know them, uh, the best, their inner circle, um, admire and respect them the most. And so I think that, think that oftentimes i find myself chasing like the approval of other people but um i find that when i'm uh i'm actually doing way better business-wise

when when my wife and my kids when they love and respect and admire me then everything else is kind of taking care of itself um and that includes fitness Like my wife holds me to a high regard. And as far as taking care of myself, um, when I'm taking care of home base, um, that's, that's where greatness comes from. Love it. John Rulon. Thanks man. Appreciate it. Thanks dude. It's great. There you have it. Have you learned how to give the perfect gift? If so, start giving away freely. the perfect gift? If so, start giving away freely. And again, guys, this for me was so fascinating. Make sure to pick up a copy of John's book as well. You can get all the information in the show notes and the full video interview at lewishouse.com slash 344. Make sure to share it out on Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, anywhere you think people could use this free, Instagram, anywhere you think people could use this free, helpful information to empower their lives and help them be even greater.

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So let me know what you think. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And my question for you today is this, how much longer are you going to wait to actually go after the life of your dreams? How many more days, how many more weeks, how many more months or years are you going to continue to put off the thing that you've always wanted to do? The thing that's inside of you that you can't stop thinking about and you continue to say, you know what? I'll do it next month. I'll do it next year. I'll wait until I'm ready. How much longer are you going to put that thing off?

And how amazing will it feel to take that first step and start achieving that life of your dreams? That's my question for you guys today. I hope you enjoyed this one. I hope you know that you are loved, that you matter, and that you are so, so worth it. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.