The School of Greatness - 352 Overcome Your Ego with Ryan Holiday

Episode Date: July 11, 2016

"You've got to cultivate people around you who are not afraid to tell you the truth." - Ryan Holiday If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/352

Episode number 352 with best-selling author Ryan Holiday. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. When ego slips away, the best idea wins.

That's a quote from my good friend and mentor, Chris Hawker. And this episode is all about ego and how in some ways ego can drive us to be an achievement of the things we want in our lives, but ultimately will leave us feeling broken, shattered, and hurting ourselves and others if we don't understand how to let it go. And Ryan is going to dissect this topic.

He's got a new book out called Ego is the Enemy. And Ryan Holiday is a media strategist and prominent writer on strategy and business. And after dropping out of college at 19, he went on to advise many best-selling authors and multi-platinum musicians. He served as director of marketing at American Apparel for many years, and he is also a bestselling author of The Obstacle is the Way. Ryan and his partner, Niels, were also a key component in the strategy and the success of the School of Greatness book. They were a huge part of it for me, and it wouldn't have been a huge success, sold over 55,000 copies by now, and also hit the New York Times bestseller list. So I'm super grateful for his strategy.

And I believe he's just a brilliant mind. And what we covered today are all things ego. And one of the main things is why Ryan says we should not be passionate in our lives, which I thought was interesting because I'm always talking about being passionate. So you get to hear both sides of the story there about why you should not be passionate, where Ryan has seen my ego get in the way of my life. I ask him, what have I done where my ego has held me back from my greatness?

So that kind of gets interesting at that moment. Also, how telling the truth can put you in a position of power, even when you know it's going to hurt someone's ego. The steps to finding your purpose and why purpose is more important than passion and why thinking small is often the best way to start. I'm super excited for you guys to engage and hear this interview. Ryan's a brilliant guy and just such an incredible human being.

So without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Ryan Holiday. Welcome everyone back to the School of Genius podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Ryan Holiday. Ryan, good to see you, man. Thanks for having me. This is a step up from when I first did your webinar like four years ago. What you've built is amazing when I first, when I first did your webinar, like four years ago, where were you built as a mate? I mean, I think we just did it over Skype. Gotcha.

Gotcha. Yeah. But what you've built is just been amazing. It's been fun, man. It's been a hell of a ride. I'll tell you what, doing quality work consistently for four years every week, you know, it does something. Well, I think that's the thing that a lot of people miss, right?

Like they see like someone has a huge podcast or a bestselling book and they think like, okay, how do I get that? Now. Right now. Right. And so like they think it's like, okay, I need to spend this amount of money or I need to do this. And they don't realize that all those things were built iteratively. Time. Yeah.

Like you didn't even, if I remember correctly, you weren't even starting a podcast. This was three and a half years ago I started the podcast. We just hit 350 episodes recently and, you know, it This was three and a half years ago I started a podcast. We just hit 350 episodes recently, and it's been three and a half years. But I mean, you didn't even set out to build a podcast. You were just doing something, and you had this conversation with someone, which is a Robert Greene one, right? Yeah. And you decided that that should be...

Yeah. That was the first interview, first episode, but I was doing a webinar with him to promote his book. And then I was like, this is a great interview. Why don't I put this part of the podcast series that I later decided I was going to do? Yeah. And so that's actually one of the things I talk about in Ego a little bit is that you have to make sure that you don't make up stories about other people because it can seem like they set out to do this. So it's like you, it was somewhat accidental.

It was about you took a chance, you did this thing, and then you started to see opportunities and you grew them versus like I had a vision for a 350-episode podcast and 3,000,000 downloads, right? It's less sexy than that but more attainable. So it should be more inspiring but people don't see that. When I started the podcast originally, I remember I had just moved to L.A., and I was kind of going through a rough path in my relationship. I just sold a company that I wasn't really that inspired with anymore, and I was trying to figure out what was my next thing, what was my dream, my purpose, what was my meaning.

And I remember I really enjoyed interviewing people at the time or just connecting with your conversations and i was like man i've got pretty good relationships with some inspiring people what if i share these with other people right and then i asked a few friends who you know derrick halpern and john lee dumas was like and and pat flynn i was like how's the podcast going and they were like it's incredible i don't know why derrick stopped his but uh i was like these guys can do it i think i can figure it out yeah and i remember i set up the first year I was like, these guys can do it. I think I can figure it out. Yeah. And I remember I set up the first year.

I was like, I'm just going to create some good content every single week and do it for a year and then see what happens. Right. And I was like, I'm not going to take any sponsors. Like,

I'm not going to try any of that stuff. Right. I'm just going to build something like inspiring to me. And the sponsors came quickly because of that. Sure. And it just kind of took off.

It might've been the time of when I launched it. It might've been the... But it's launched it. It might have been the... But it's not like podcasts were even new then. They'd been around for years. For six, seven years, at least some of them.

You know, Joe Rogan's been around for a long time, so... I think what's also impressive about yours is how quickly you leveled up. Like, I'm... Like, I feel awkward being on this show,

being the least important person on it. And it's the same thing with Tim Ferriss' show, where it's like... You've been on this show like 10 times, though. No, just twice. and it's the same thing with tim paris's show where it's like you've been on the show like 10 times though no just twice uh but but it's like then it's like arnold and all these other and you you've had all these enormous celebrities which you would have had like if you had thought you could have had them on your show when you're doing your first episode you would

have been crazy yeah but it was that you you knew where you could grow it you it's like you did this thing which gave you that opportunity like that. Yeah, they all build on each other. And it was the vision was to be able to interview anyone I want. Sure. And that's still the vision. I can't do it yet.

Right. It's still the goal. And some of these interviews have taken a year to make happen of me following up and building relationship and donating to their foundations or whatever it takes. Right.

It's like I want to be like- And building your numbers. Exactly. Having the platform big enough that they're like, okay, now it makes sense for me to come on and give you my time. Totally. So the goal is to keep getting bigger. Of course. So that I can get anyone.

Right. Everyone comes to me and says, we need to get our message out there on the School of Greatness. Sure. That's the vision. Yeah. But it's been three and a half years and this is how long it's taken to get me to get to this point. Right. So we'll see how much longer it takes.

Or there is no – it doesn't take a certain amount of time because there's no end point. That's true. I'm not looking to stop at any time. Right. Right. It's not like, oh, if you get Oprah on, you're done. Although that would be a good note to go out on. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny. I was on my buddy Rob Bell's podcast, and then the next interview he did was Oprah. Wow. So it's my name and then Oprah's name in the podcast stream. That's pretty good. Maybe they'll accidentally click you. It's close, right? Yeah, it's close. Cool, man. Well, you've got a new book out called Ego is the Enemy.

And I'm curious, why ego? Why this topic? Why now? And I watched the video, which is really cool, the trailer. Oh, thank you. Where you tell your whole story about it. But why ego? Why is this such an important topic to give two years of your life? Writing, thinking, promoting, and then more, obviously. Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, so my last book was about external obstacles. And I feel like ego is the biggest internal obstacle. Or we are, in reality, the main thing that prevents people from being successful is not other people. It's not economic factors. It's themselves, right? And the main things that tears down success is definitely ego. When we start to think we're better than we are, that we're more, you know, we have it under control, that we don't need to work as hard. We know it all. Yeah, exactly. That's when we start to destroy what we've built or when we fail and then we feel like we can never come back or that, you know, everyone hates us or all these things. So what is ego? What's the definition? So not Freudian ego, right? Not some complicated psychological definition. I'm using it in the very sort of common sense of like arrogance, entitlement, greed, selfishness,

delusion. You know, when you see someone who's incredibly talented, but they just can't get out of their own way, and they can't stop making enemies or causing problems for themselves, that's – to me, that's the ego that I'm talking about. Get out of their own way to do what? Achieve something or to make an impact or – Yeah. Yeah. Like, they're working so hard on some problem. an impact or yeah yeah like they're working so hard on some problem and or they think about like someone like kobe bryant incredibly talented but he drives teammates away right and and it's only

why can't he play why couldn't he play with other people right and could have won more championships with him maybe totally totally and and at the same time why couldn't shaquille o'neal play with kobe bryant it was in both of their it was in both of their interests to get over whatever those differences were, but neither could do it. Why is it so hard for us to do that? I think it's a lot of things. I think, one, we don't know that it's there, right? I mean, the insidious part about ego is like, we we're doing everything right it's the other person that's causing the problem uh but but i would say i think it feels like it feels like you're compromising on the most essential parts of you right like like you probably saw this with

your when you let go of your ego yeah like you get edits back from your editor right and you're like how dare you tell me about this right right? And in reality, they're just trying to help. You don't know me. Yeah, you don't know me. This is so wrong. How dare you? So you get that reaction and you feel like you're being attacked because ego is supposed to protect you. But really, it's insulating you and blocking you from things that are actually good. you and blocking you from things that are actually good. So I think what ego is, is this, Cyril Connolly is one of my favorite writers. He was saying, ego like cancer is the overproduction of cells, right? And so ego is not, it's inherently a bad thing. It's that having too much of it is what creates. So I make the distinction between

confidence, which is critical. Like you have to believe you can do stuff. You have to know that you put in the work. You have to know what you're good at. That's essential. But ego is past confidence. Ego is when you have confidence in things that you shouldn't be confident of, right? And so that's where you bite off more than you can chew. You say, screw them. I don't need them. I'm going to do this on my own. You say everyone else is wrong. That is the problem. You isolate yourself. Totally. Yeah. And it's like the amount of... There's this fascinating book about the history of Beanie Babies by Zach Bissonnette. And the famous moment in the Beanie Baby history is that he'd come up with this idea.

And everyone's like, that's horrible. You cannot do this. The Beanie Baby idea. No, the Beanie Babies already existed. He had this new one. I'm forgetting what it was. But his assistant was like, do not announce this. Please do not do this.

And he was like, I could put the tie logo on manure and people would buy it. Oh, my God. And of course they didn't. Right. So it's like, it's that, but, but we've all been there.

We, it's like, we feel like we know better because we're so good at what we've done. And people have been wrong before. Like everyone told you all the things that you couldn't do and they were wrong. Yeah. And then now you think you have to prove everyone wrong all the time, but the reality is they're not wrong all the time.

Sometimes they're right. And so balance and confidence is about knowing when to listen and when to respectfully not listen. That's a challenge. It's so hard. But also look at the examples of the Muhammad Ali or Mayweather approach where it's over-the-top ego and they were and are the greatest essentially in one thing that they do yeah well there's that line from muhammad ali he says it's like it's hard to be humble when you're as great as i am which is true but i think i think you can actually take that quote in a way he didn't mean which is yes it is hard that's why you have to work harder because to be gracious and

have humility and that to be just a good person. Yeah. But also, I feel like the trajectory of every single boxer ever is they become the greatest, and then they underestimate an opponent. And they fall. And they fall. And Tyson. Yeah, everyone. Yeah. And the saddest part about boxing is when they don't know when they should quit and then that's when they get hurt or um they do real damage to themselves so

it's like you have to be humble not only because you should be a good person hard to let go but it's hard to let go and and and you the second you start to think you're better than you are that's when an opponent seizes on that weakness and beats you with it do you think it was wise that kobe retired now and he was like i have nothing left and i mean i think so uh i think jason whitlock uh is right when he was saying that the sad part about the kobe story is that he left the franchise in ruins right like it's not like the like it's he didn't if he left earlier or if he'd been able to. Left on top.

Left on top or if he'd been able to help build a team that could survive after he left. And you could argue that's not his job. It's not, yeah. But, you know, the Lakers are not going to be good for a few, the Clippers are better than the Lakers now. And so that, that has to, like, when you look at you look at billionaires who can never retire and they can't pass the company on to anyone, to me, that tarnishes their legacy. It's a knock against their greatness that they were so selfish and could delegate so little that they built this thing,

but then ultimately it couldn't outlast them because they couldn't share control. Wow. Where's a moment in your life where ego really ruined you the most, whether it be a relationship or business or friendship or your health? Yeah. I mean, obviously I think there's lots of places. I think the big thing, like when I look back at my writing, the writing I did when I was like 19, 20, 21, it makes me so uncomfortable because it's like I cringe when I read what I wrote in the past because it's so certain. And you know what I mean?

As a matter of fact. Yeah. And it's like you realize at 19 that you really didn't know anything about anything. And so I think like what I say in the book is that ego is different at every phase in your life. But I think it's most embarrassing when you're young and you act like you know way more than you do. Like every cocky guy. Yeah. You simplify really complex things and you feel like... As you become more successful and you

meet other successful people and maybe you even meet people that you've read about in the news that you've made snap judgments about, you realize like, oh, like, you know, it's more complicated than I thought, or they're actually a good person, or they have multiple sides to them, or that this issue, there really is no like black and white to it, you know? And I think when I look back, like, I wonder all the things that I missed or that I didn't pick up on or that I couldn't have learned because I thought I already knew. Like there's this Epictetus quote. He's a famous Stoic and he says, one cannot learn that which they think they already know.

And I think my youth and maybe yours is the same way, but definitely for a lot of people is defined by thinking we already know everything. And that's when we should be learning the most. Yeah. Interesting. we already know everything and that's when we should be learning the most yeah interesting what's this what's a specific example you have where you feel like wow this really this ego consumed me so much that i just destructed some part of me or a relationship or like your life changed because of this experience well so one one of the things i talk about in the book a little bit i call them these sort of fight club moments and then these moments where like you're you just get destroyed and you have to you have to like look at yourself and who you were and i remember i was working i

worked for tucker max when i was uh in college and i made some like we were talking about something we had this like message board where we talked we were talking about something and i made some – like we were talking about something. We had this like message board where we were talking about something. And I made some smart-ass comment. Over chat. Yeah, like we were chatting on this message board like all the employees that were at First Company. And we were like chatting about some like throwaway thing. And I was acting like I knew what I was talking about and I didn't. And he just like tore me a new one just like so – like in front of everyone.

In the chat or text, I guess. Yeah, in front of all the other employees and i like i had a panic attack like i had to go to the hospital um and like in retrospect i don't think it was good leadership on his part like i don't think like i wouldn't do that i would never publicly eviscerate someone but there are those moments where you're like wait what was i like why did I think that I needed to even be involved in this conversation? Like, I remember another one I was working, I worked not far from here in Beverly Hills at this talent management agency. And we had this, some big meeting and a bunch of people were talking. And I was like the assistant who was like supposed to sort of like sit on the side. And I remember like, they were talking about something that I kind of knew about. And I like interrupted and I said something. And then after my boss was like, why did you say that? He was like, did you say it because you had something

to say or you just wanted people to like acknowledge you existed? He's like, did that really needed to be said or you just wanted to say something? And I was like, you know, you're totally right. Like I was just, I had, That had no purpose whatsoever except for my own ego. And those are the moments where important people don't give you a second chance. They're like, okay, that kid, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Or don't invite him to any more meetings. Right, right. him to any more meetings. Right, right. And like, obviously, I didn't like ruin anything for myself. But you realize just the wrong remark at the wrong time can be the end. You know, you treat the wrong person the wrong way.

And that's the end for you, you know? When is confidence cross the line into ego? Because you've got to be confident in your work and your skills and your ability when you go into a job interview, when you go into whatever, playing a big game in sports, your relationship. If you don't have confidence, people aren't going to want to keep you around. Yes. In any area of your life after a certain time. You're like, okay, it's time to believe in yourself. Yes.

So what is the difference between believing yourself with 100% certainty that I'm going to win this game and give my all to you're just a cocky egotistical maniac right now that's a good point i mean so i think aristotle says that it's a spectrum so like he would say like courage and or sorry he would say like recklessness and cowardice are the extremes and my courage is in the middle, right? Or it's above, so it's like a triangle. And I think it's like that. So confidence, like ego is, you know, I'm the greatest who ever lived. I'm perfect. You know, I've got it all handled.

Nobody knows better than me. No flaws. Yeah. And then, like, I'm worthless. I don't know anything. Why would anyone listen to me? Those are, in a weird way, those are both sort of self-absorbed positions, right? You're just, all you're just thinking about yourself.

Denial on the either. Yeah, yeah. And you're just, over here, you're just not thinking well of yourself. And over here, you're thinking too well of yourself. So confidence is in the middle. But I think it's interesting, like, confidence has to be based uh frank shamrock an mma fighter he was saying like um confidence is earned right and that's the if your confidence is on i did the work or that i'm a fast learner or that i'm like i'm a fast learner so i'm going to be able to figure this out or like um i studied harder than anyone else or you, you know, I've, like, I know I can do this because,

like, you know about how much weight you can lift because you go to the gym and you've done it before. You're not, you don't just, you might know, you might have an inkling that you're capable of a lot more, but you're confident based on what you've done or done in a sort of a reasonable circle. So I think that's where the confidence is. It's like, okay, I know that I can write a book because I've studied harder. I've written long things before. I've worked with other authors. It's not like, oh, sure, I should have a book.

That's the difference. Interesting. Okay. And you also talk about in the book, you say humility and reality are the cure for symptoms of ego. Why is that? What do you mean by that? Well, so if ego is being confident in things that you shouldn't be confident in, reality is like, oh, wait, okay, I got too far over my skis. You know what I mean? Like I went too far in the other direction.

I needed like a little bit of a wake-up call. And so sometimes that's why failure can be good. Not catastrophic failure, but like little things, right? Like you're confident, so you put something out there and someone's like, hey, this is wrong for the following reasons. You got to listen to that stuff or you keep investing and you go further and further. And then when you do fall and when you do fail, it's like really painful. Yeah, interesting.

So I think you got to cultivate people around you who are not afraid to tell you the truth. That's the hard part is like, I mean, especially as you become successful, I'm sure you've seen this. I think you got to be willing to have people tell you the truth because most people don't want to hear the truth. Yes, right.

Even if they say it, they're like, they don't want to hear it, right? Right. You have to make sure you don't punish people for telling you the truth by not talking to them or fighting them. Even if you disagree, you have to hear them. But it's like you can realize like,

man, I only talk to people who worked for me today, right? Like who are in some sense not super motivated to tell me the truth like i've been around a lot of really really successful wealthy people and you realize like if i were to tell this person like the only way i could deliver the truth to this person would be like a kamikaze mission like like they we would not be friends after like they've gotten so far that like i'm'm going to have to, I'm going to have to go in and say all this unpleasant stuff and that's going to be the end of it. And then you realize like, and then you usually don't do it. Right.

Like, you know, it's like if, if I've gotten to a point where like you, you follow me on social media and you, you, you thought I would like, you knew, you know what my life is like, but the pictures I was posting were not at all representative. You knew maybe I was inflating numbers about what I've done or like, you know, look at this photo with me and this celebrity, but you knew, like, I paid to meet that person. You know, all the things. And like, you might know

like, hey, Ryan, like, you might want to say like, hey, Ryan, like, people are starting to think you're full of it. Like, you're not coming off well. You should change. But you might not do it because you would be worried that I'm going to shoot the messenger essentially, right? And so that's the difficult thing is like if you don't have that realism in your life and you don't cultivate it, you're not checking in all the time, you get to a point where it's like people realize that it's not in their interest to tell you the truth. What's a good way to approach someone that you want to tell the truth to who has an overwhelming sense of ego or they don't have reality? Yeah. How do you approach that person? First off, I would say that it's weird, but actually

you can, if everyone else is lying, like if everyone else in that organization is not telling the truth, oftentimes being the person that tells the uncomfortable truths is a position of power, right? Because you're the only one that's not like everyone else. So you'll start to trust your opinion more. And I think – so the big thing I found is that it's not about showing that you're smarter and it's not about making them feel stupid. It's often, I find it's, hey, here's my opinion about this thing. Like, let's say someone's making some important business decision and you think they're making the wrong decision.

You say, look, I think this is the wrong decision for these reasons. But you're the boss, so you've got to make the call. And then whatever they decide, if they decide not to go with you, you still have to support them in whatever they're doing. And then you have to let the results speak for themselves. Because if they're not insane, they'll remember, hey, Lewis told me when I was thinking about investing in, hey, I was thinking about investing in this company. And Lewis said, that's a bad idea. And I did it anyway. And then I lost all my money. Right.

As long as you weren't a jerk to them and you didn't rub it in along the way. And then I like to even pretend that I didn't do it. Like, I not only don't want to do I told you so. I want to like – Well, your ego wants to say that. Sure, sure. Yeah. But I'm saying like politically and relationship-wise, you not only don't say you told you so, you don't even mention it.

Right? Let it go. Let it go and let them say – let them remember, hey, at that critical moment, Lewis was right and he was big enough about being right that he didn't rub it in. He's the kind of person that I should go to for advice in the future or he's a voice that I know is reasonable and speaking the truth and not selfish and just not about him. It's about the truth. Yeah. Here's something. You say that most people say, find your passion and follow it.

But you say, don't be passionate. Why is that? Well, I think passion is dangerous, right? So throughout philosophy, especially in Stoic philosophy, they warn against the passions like lust, greed, anger, fear. This is what – historically, passion has meant extreme emotions. Yes. And so I tend to gravitate towards that definition. But I think purpose is better than passion, right?

Because passion is – It's like a mission. Yeah. Passion is like, I like this. It feels good. I want to do this. Purpose is, here's what I'm trying to accomplish. Here's why it's important.

And I'm not going to stop until it's done. Like, who would you rather have work for you? The guy that just really loves writing or the person who's like trying to write for a reason, you know? And so that passion can be blinding and it can get you like, it's not enough just to love something or else everyone would do what they love. You also have to be good at it. And you also have to know how to make smart decisions and how to plan. Is it possible for us to always have a purpose?

What do you mean? I mean, a lot of people, I think, don't know what their purpose is. Sure. They don't know how to discover it. They don't even know what they're passionate about. So how do you find a purpose, period? How do you even go about saying, oh, this is my purpose at this point in my life? Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons that people like to say, find your passion, is that it sounds really smart and you don't, like, no one's like, okay, then what? Right? smart and you don't like no one's like okay then what right like it's just it's just like it's like do what you love you know it's

okay then how you know so when i when i'm saying purpose i think it's about defining your goals defining what the life you're trying to build is and and having a real model for what you're doing. And for me, I've tried to be very clear about what I'm trying to accomplish to myself so that I'm not getting distracted by all these. Like I like to do lots of things. Me too. But you got to pick one to really get good at it, you know? But you got to pick one to really get good at it. And it's also – it's like if you're doing this thing because it means something to you and you know exactly what success looks like for you, it's nice because then you're not as distracted by the fact that so-and-so is posting photos of them surrounded by $100 bills on Instagram or on a yacht and a visa or whatever. You want to make sure that you're not comparing yourself to other people.

You want to compare yourself against the progress you've made for whatever your purpose is. Most people never do that. Of course not. That's the best way to compare yourself is to how far you've come and what you've created as opposed to what everyone else has created around you. Well, you probably learned that in sports, right, where it's like it's not about what other players are doing. It's about whatever you're capable of. The progress from the previous game or the previous week or what we've done. Right. Getting closer to our goal or to our vision. Yeah. Because like, look, some people are freaks. You know what I mean? Like some people are just way better than you and they're always going to be better than you and they're not going to

have to work as hard as you. So it's like if you're comparing yourself to them or just mimicking them, you're not – that's not the right approach. But everyone has their demons in battles. It doesn't matter if they're like the richest person or the most successful or the most good-looking or the most athletic. There's some battle I feel like we're always facing. Yeah. It's hard to just be like i've got it all figured out in all areas of my life i don't know have you met anyone who's just like everything's figured out like well i would say i don't have any challenges i would say the people who you feel like have it

most figured out are probably struggling the deepest the most there's this uh james baldwin um has his his father was sort of like an abusive, bad person. Not a bad person. He didn't have a great father. And I remember I was reading one of his essays, and he quoted the eulogy that his pastor gave his father. And the pastor said, thou knowest the man, thou knowest not his wrestling. Because you don't know what each person is wrestling with inside. You don't know if that beautiful celebrity is wrestling with an eating disorder. You don't

know if that guy... Or wilderness or whatever. Yeah. You don't know if that guy who seems like he has a happy family is miserable and cheats on his wife. You don't know if that person who sold millions of albums feels like a failure because their parents never told them they love them. You know, you don't know what people are struggling with. And it's like, so it's like, you can't, you can't compare yourself to them because you don't know what the, you don't know whatever they have. You don't know what they have. You don't know what it costs them. Do you know what I mean? You don't know what's inside.

Yeah. Why do you think we have so many obstacles as humans? In life? Well, I mean, look, the world is indifferent to you and I, right? The world is not, oh, Lewis wants to be a professional baseball player. How do I make that happen? Or Ryan wants to be an Olympic skier. How can I make that happen? The world is not only

indifferent to like our personal goals, like the world doesn't even care about the human race, right? Like we could all be wiped out by like a volcano tomorrow, right? So it's that we are a very small piece of like a complex universe. And the result is that things don't go the way we want them to go. So I think those are the external obstacles. And if that wasn't hard enough... Right, the internal. Yeah, then we put on top of that struggles with addiction or struggles with self-worth or struggles with other people. We add to that things that make an extraordinarily difficult thing even more difficult. And we don't even know it.

We don't know the people that we've alienated or we don't know how we've – you think your journey was from point A to point B, but you don't actually – it could have been shorter if you had done this differently. You never know. If you had an unlimited amount of money that I gave you right now to solve one challenge in the world, whether it be an internal challenge that humans face or some type of external challenge, and snap your fingers, it's solved, and we never longer had that challenge in the world or internally, what would that be?

Man, that is a crazy question. We talked about William McGaskill a while ago, right? Who does effective altruism. And I think what's interesting about his work is he's saying it's like, we all try to pick causes that are like close to us, right? It's like, I like reading. So like, you would think like, I would go like, well, how can I, you know, give money to a charity that helps kids read? And that's like a good cause. But what we never think is, like, there are millions of people who are just flat out starving or dying of some disease. So I feel like if you give me an unlimited money, amount of money, the rational thing to do would be to say, okay, what would help objectively save the most amount of lives, right? Like there's people out there and I think these are real heroes who go like, okay, you know, I work on

Wall Street. I make $500,000 a year. I only need 70,000 to live. I'm going to give the rest of that money to a charity and I'm going to save 30,000 people a year. People do that. And to me, that's like real heroism because in a weird way, it's taking the ego out of it. It's not like I would love to see my name on the side of a library at Harvard or I would love an art gallery downtown that houses my collection. In those ways, obviously, those are still good things to do with your money and it's better than buying yourself a yacht or whatever. But it is ego, right?

Doesn't he talk about actually putting your name out there when making the donations though? Doesn't he say that? Like you should not make it anonymous in order to inspire others to – I think he's saying that. Yeah, I think he does. But you shouldn't try to be Donald Trump with your name everywhere. Yes, but it's not like people go. It's like, oh, I – some guy just gave like $100 million to

Central Park, right? Some big hedge fund manager in New York. And it's like Central Park is one of the wealthiest, most protected, like best parks in the world. It doesn't need $100 million. Nothing bad is happening to Central Park. Mark Zuckerberg gave it to like the school system in new jersey or something right a hundred million dollars to yeah you want to but you want to do the math on like what is actually going to help objectively the most amount of

people so how do we get out of our own head then you know when we don't even know we're in our head sure because we don't think anything's wrong with us yeah how do we get out of it well right right well and it's interesting because being in your head can be really great and really miserable at the same time and lamont she read this amazing book called bird by bird and she talks about uh she says in every writer's head they're listening to this radio station called kFKD. So K-F-K-D. And in one ear, it's saying like, you're the best, you're amazing. It's like, she's like, it's blaring rap music about how awesome you are.

And in the other, it's like playing like the saddest, most depressing songs about how worthless you are. So you want to get out of your own head because as nice as the good one feels, the bad one is terrible. To me, I would say like, you're not far from running canyon. When you walk up that canyon or you're in the wilderness or you're standing next to the ocean and you're just experiencing the present moment, you're not thinking about how amazing you are and you're not thinking about how worthless you are either. So to me, I think nature is a big one. I think asking yourself

questions, like I'm, I, in a weird way, it's sort of kind of going back in your head to get out of your head. But I think asking yourself tough questions, who am I? What kind of person do I want to be? You know, is this the right thing to do it? Pausing for a second, instead of just reacting emotionally all the time is a way to kind of get out of that self-absorbed cycle. Right. You said that though we think big, we must act and live small in order to accomplish what we seek. Why live small? Isn't that almost exactly what we're talking about with your podcast, though?

It's like— Small steps every day. Yeah, yeah. Paul Graham talks about this. He's like, the way to change the world is to start by changing some tiny thing. Yeah, take one step or whatever. Yeah, right. It's not having this frighteningly ambitious world-changing idea. That's great.

I gave a talk at Google a few weeks ago, and there's this quote from Larry Page where he's saying, like, the way I pick startups to invest in is I ask themselves, like, is what you're working on going to change the world? And that sounds really inspiring, except for YouTube – or sorry, Google was his thesis that he was writing. It was like a research project, and it became Google. YouTube started as a dating site right like uh gmail was like an internal project um that you know they thought hey maybe we can make this email thing like maybe it'll work maybe it won't um meanwhile these sort of big huge projects they fail all the time because we can be wrong and and because we've like you have flex like you're let's say the the podcast episode didn't work, right?

You could have pivoted into any number of other things. But if I was like, this is the thing. Yeah, I have to do this. This is going to happen. It's going to be huge. Right. Which a lot of podcasters say when they start out. Yeah.

So they overinvest in it. They overcommit. And then they can't see – they can't – Get out of their own way when it's not working. Yeah, they can't see what the problems are. They start too big. Interesting. I like that.

Who would you say is the best example of someone, either you know or you don't know, who is like, man, they just don't have any ego or they have the right amount at the right times or they're flexible with it and they're so aware of it. And they're just like taking command of whatever their vision is in the world and making things happen. My favorite story or my favorite person in the book is George Marshall, the World War II general. The Marshall Plan is named after him. He was this amazing man. There's this famous story about him or his famous encounter with his wife. And someone said, like, oh, he had no ego.

And she was like, no, you don't understand. He had an ego like everyone else. He just believed in what he was doing so much that he never let it get in the way. And so, like, for instance, right before the D-Day invasion, FDR, he asked Marshall, he was like, look, you're very important to me here in Washington, but I realize this is an opportunity of a lifetime. Do you want to command the troops at D-Day? And George Marshall, he wanted it more than anything in the world. And he said, I don't want my personal feelings to impact your decision at all you decide and so fdr chooses eisenhower who does an amazing job um obviously that we win world war ii but it

in a way that that what marshall was doing was choosing the mission over himself. Yeah. And that's so hard to do. And we think in that moment, like if I don't do that, no one will ever remember me. I'll be a loser. Right? But that's not true. Like, in fact, it made him essential.

It helped win the war. He goes on to do all these other amazing things. He accomplished more than you and I could ever dream of. And there's a quote from Truman where he says, never did George Marshall think about himself. And it was in repeatedly doing that that he was able to accomplish all these things that will outlast him far more than any

selfish marketing or decisions were at the time. It's interesting. An early mentor and now friend of mine, Chris Hawker, I believe the quote that he has on his office, he's a famous inventor, invented many products, is, when ego slips away, the best idea wins.

That's great. And he, I think that's on his wall because he does lots of, he's been taking like 75 products to market, inventions, but he's constantly

brainstorming with his team. Yeah. And you would think that a guy who's invented a lot and patented and everything and knows everything about it, that he'd be like, no, this is the way it's going to be. But he lets his ego go and says the best idea needs to win. Otherwise, it's going to fail. If it's just my idea and it has to be my way.

So when ego slips away, the best idea wins. There's a quote from Tony Adams, who's a soccer coach, famous soccer coach. And it's pretty cheesy, but it's totally true. He says, when you play for the name on the front of the jersey, they'll remember the name on the back. But we're so, Pat Riley calls this the disease of me. We think in the short term, like, I'm not getting enough attention. I'm not being appreciated. I'm not getting paid enough. We think about all these minor concerns Because we're worried it's going to hurt us in the long term

And really that's just distracting us From doing the work That is ultimately the only reason anyone is remembered For anything I mean you've experienced this with your book And you've got the best seller list Right there on the wall And you want to win in the short term

But really I don't remember how many how many copies of the great gatsby sell in its first week nobody knows right like no any book that's like good to great how how how was its first week sales like nobody knows right what matters is did you make something that stands the test of time and did you keep working at it past when everyone else would have given up and said like it, it's on to the next thing or, you know, I'll do this other thing because I can make more money or whatever. Like, you've got to stay at it and stay at it and stay at it long past whenever the ego gets bored. I got a few questions left. All right.

This came to me. I'll ask you a personal question. Where do you see that my ego gets in the way of my – any area of my business, life, relationships? Where have you seen – Well – Feel free to be truthful with me. Is this a kamikaze mission? No, no, no. This just came to me because I'm like, let's see what comes up.

You know, I'll give you a good one. I don't know if this is necessarily ego, but it's going to sound weird. So I was really interested in Brazilian jiu-jitsu for a while. I've stopped doing it, so I don't want to act like I'm some genius about it. Yeah, but I remember I was talking to, I guess, my professor or whatever you call them, I was talking to, I guess, my professor or whatever you call them. And he was saying what happens for big guys is that they don't get as good at the fundamentals and the skills because they can just put weight on people. Like they could beat someone like – Strength.

You could beat me. With strength. Yeah, with strength. And you wouldn't learn the skills. I would say when you have some things going for you that not everyone in the writing and podcasting spaces, which is you're handsome, you're tall, you're very charismatic, right? And so I think we all have strengths, and those strengths sometimes compensate for weaknesses. So I think maybe, I'm not saying it is a problem for you, but it could be, which is you can get used to skating by on those things.

And then the substance can start to suffer. And so you always want to be the harshest critic of your own work, right? Like, is this good enough? Am I saying something new enough? Is this original enough? And am I pushing myself to be real and vulnerable and honest? Like when James Altucher says you got to say the thing that you're afraid to say, no one else can hold you to that stand. Like no one else can be like, oh, you're afraid to say that because only you know what you're afraid of.

Right. And so in the sense that like as a writer, I have to work harder than you. Right. Because I don't have some of the things that you have. You want to make sure that you're holding yourself to those things even though you don't need to. Right. Yeah. Okay.

I like that. That's good. Do I have to leave now? No. I was going to beat you up. No, I'm just kidding. Interesting. What is your biggest fear?

As a human being or? Yeah. My wife's expecting so i'm worried that i'm worried that i'm so like my work is so important to me and my identity is so tied up in it that i'll make a lot of really decisions that seem important at the time that in retrospect don't matter at all like it's like oh you know somebody some random person emailed me and i have to respond you know and i'm gonna miss some moment and i'll never be it's not that i'll never be able to get it back it's that i stole that from someone do you know what what I mean? And I'm worried that I have selfishness on the one hand, but also just like, I think it comes from a place of insecurity, like feeling

like if you let up for a second, you'll lose what you have. You're not going to be relevant or you're not going to build momentum or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that I had that actual fear of losing the momentum. And then I have a fear on top of that fear that in giving into it, I'll do something that will hurt other people. It's like I can choose to live with whatever fears I want. But I've made a decision now to have a kid. And that is they don't – like they didn't sign up for that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Interesting. And what do you feel like your purpose is right now? I really love writing. I really love writing, and I feel like I've been lucky enough to write things that other people haven't. I've actually seen this. So I write a lot about ancient philosophy, and some of the people in that community have started to become resentful of that writing because it's become popular. And so on one hand, the egotistical reaction it's not just like academic anymore or whatever yeah yeah and and you know where it is like you know people when you start to become successful people resent you

for that success and so on the one hand the egotistical reaction is just to dismiss that and be like you know they're haters don't listen but it's more it's like oh actually like of all the people who get to talk about this like i somehow i'm the one right and i think um my purpose is that i have i have the ability to talk about this stuff at a scale that other people haven't been able to get and now i have to make sure that i'm doing that well and then i'm working hard and then i'm producing things that matter if you could achieve anything you wanted to achieve what would you want i don't think there's anything and i hope this doesn't sound weird but like there's nothing that like there's like all i starting from about when i was like 19 or 20

years old i really wanted to be a writer and I wanted to write books. Why? I don't know. I just thought that people – because I love books and I love – Did your parents give you books as a kid? Did you – They did. They did not like good books.

You know what I mean? Like I was always reading but they were like adventure novels. So like they instilled to me that the joy of reading but not not the right direction yet that came from mentors but i just i just the idea that you get to research and teach people and talk about these things for living is like amazing to me and it's this tradition that goes back literally thousands of years like That has a lot of meaning to me. And so I kind of forget the question. Or the achievement you – Oh, what can –

So I think one of the hard things about life is that you probably – do you get people who are like, so what's next? All the time. All the time. And if you're like, no, this. Like this. I would say this is what's now. Yeah. That's a great answer. I say this – I would say this is what's now. Yeah.

I want to talk about this one. That's a great answer. I say this right now is what I'm working on next. Yeah. And like I think – but the pressure is that you should say, well, and now I'm going to become a billionaire. Right, right. The next big year thing. Yes.

And I think that puts people on a path that eventually makes them very unhappy because this is what I wanted to do. So why would I – just because I've done it and I got to do it earlier than I expected, I'm going to go do something I just came up with in my head, right? I've seen a lot of people that are like, everyone else is starting companies. I should start a company. Well, maybe I don't like that. And so why should I do it just because everyone else is doing it? So I've tried to – for me, I'm trying to be very disciplined and not – people will throw – I think the myth is that opportunities are hard to come by. They are early on.

But then you get a lot of them and you have to learn which ones to say no to. It's really challenging. I want to say yes to it all. Of course. And like the reason you are successful is because at some point in your life, you said yes to everything. Right. And then I learned how to say no to it all. Of course. And the reason you are successful is because at some point in your life, you said yes to everything. Right. And then I learned how to say no to everything. Yeah. Jonathan Bader, he wrote this book called Life is Sport. He's the team psychologist for the Mets. I told you about him. He was telling me this thing. He was like, in the Dominican Republic,

they have this saying, and I forget what it is in Spanish, but it's you don't walk off the island, right? You have to hit your way off the island. So you have to swing at every pitch. But as you become more successful, like he's saying, then what happens is these guys, they come to the major leagues. And now all of a sudden, they have to choose which pitches to swing. If they swing at everything, they're not any – like pitchers know. They strike them out. They strike them out and then they hurt the whole team.

And so it's like, wait, so you used to have to swing at everything and now all of a sudden you have to learn when to not swing and when to swing. Right. And I think success is – it's the same for all of us. You do something and now all of a sudden, hey, do you want to appear on this podcast? Do you want to do this TV show? Do you want to write this thing? And you have to know what projects to say yes to.

And I'll give you an example. You could have written a book much earlier than you wrote a book. Yeah. Because I remember, actually- I wrote a proposal four years before the book came out. Well, I was going to say the day I sold my book, I was in New York City and we had lunch with Steve Hanselman. And you were like, I'm thinking about doing a book.

The barbecue place we talked to. Yes. Maybe that was afterwards. Oh, at Hill Country? Yes. Yes. But this was at some sushi restaurant. Okay.

And you were thinking about doing a book. Huh. And you waited four years. I find very impressive because you knew about how much you wanted to sell it for. It didn't feel right to me. And you knew how big you wanted it to be. It didn't feel right at that time. But that's one of the hardest things in the world.

You turned down, although you didn't really have offers because you didn't go out with it. But you could have made six figures and then more in six figures. By having discipline, you made the most money and you wrote the best book you could have written. Yeah. I had a whole other book proposal that was more about like business and lifestyle. And I was just like, we have wrote the whole thing. And Steve was like, all right, let's go shopping around. I was like, the last minute I was like, this doesn't feel right to me.

And I remember being so terrified to tell him because like, we just spent two years on this. You know? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, he's pressuring. I mean, Steve is great. He would never pressure anyone. And it's like he's pressuring – I mean Steve is great.

He would never pressure anyone. But he has a real interest in your agent to go out and you have to say, actually, this isn't right. Right? Or people go, well, this person offered me 10% more money. But it's like they don't believe in what you're doing at all. So are you going to jeopardize everything that you're working for to make 10% more in the short term? Yeah. Or do you have the discipline not to swing at that pitch? And wait a whole college experience until you come out with it. I mean, four years is so long.

It's a long time, man. It was worth it, though. And this is why you can't compare yourself to other people. How many people came out with books that you knew in that four-year period? A lot of people, man. And that if you don't have confidence and you don't have a belief in what you're doing, that's where you doubt yourself and that's where you go,

fine, I'll just copy them. Right. And then it's just an average piece of work. And won't last. Yeah, exactly. Who was more influential to you growing up, your mom or your dad? That's a good question.

Definitely my dad. Why? My dad was just like a strong... So my dad was a police officer, but became very financially successful. Why? And he did all this cool stuff. And the idea that you didn't have to be defined by that one thing that you do and that you could understand things that were related to it and work really hard, that was very influential to me. That's cool. Yeah. And what are you most grateful for in your life recently? So my wife and I, we live on this farm.

With donkeys and goats. With donkeys. I live in my dream house. Like my dream house, my dream life. Except for the rattlesnakes. I did kill a rattlesnake two days ago. Although that was fun. But it's like I think this is the other reason why you have to be present and actually enjoy the moment is that it's like this is everything that i want and i have to remind

myself that it's everything i want and that's freeing and not get distracted by like oh and it would be nice to have a bigger and better thing right like as soon as you buy a house you're like in an apartment you're never like i'd really like to redo this bathroom but as soon as you own a house you're like i don't like these floors you know and trying to trying to actually be grateful for what you have things that you would have killed like a year earlier to have. As soon as you have them, all of a sudden you think about how they could be better. And I think you've written about this a lot, but gratitude is incredibly important, not just versus focusing on what you could have or don't have yeah which are egotistical things that also recipes for misery yeah i like that a couple final

questions before i ask him i want to make sure everyone gets the book ego is the enemy go pick it up right now i'll put it in the show notes as well uh but go check it out it's a great book it's a short read too compared to most big books. It's a smaller book but it's a lot of great information there. You asked very moving questions. You asked me one, you said something like

is it better to be smart or kind? Was that the question? Was this the last time? Yeah, this is the first time. You asked me something like that and I just thought it was an amazing question. I think about it a lot. Really?

Is it better to be smart or kind? It's definitely better to be kind, I you think i mean yeah yeah yeah step one is more rare one is more rare yeah kind is more rare i would say kind is more rare really yeah people aren't kind yeah i think so there's lots of smart people it would the world be better with more smart people and more kind people i think kind people? I think kind. Probably, yeah. I mean, the wars that are happening are based on people who think they're smart. Yes, right.

Not kind people are creating wars. Well, that's the thing. Socrates says no one does wrong on purpose, right? So the smart people all think they are doing the smart thing. And I think if people led more with their heart, as cheesy as that sounds, ego would drop. Sure. And the heart would lead.

When the head is away, the heart will lead, right? Yeah. Yeah, sure. Cool. I'm glad you brought it up. Okay, this is a question I ask at the end for everyone. It's called the three truths. Okay.

And you're a writer, so you're going to create many works of art for the rest of your life, and you've already got great books. You've helped a lot of people, a lot of smart people write incredible books, including myself. You helped me with School of Greatness. And it's the last day for you many years from now. And all your friends and family, everything you've ever wanted, you've achieved. You've got the dream family. You've got the dream home.

You've got thousands of donkeys, whatever you want. You've got it all. You've got it all. Yeah. But all of your work is erased. Okay. And you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three truths, things you know to be true about all of your experiences in life that you would pass on to people.

Sure. As your Bible, essentially, for how to live life. Okay. What would be your three truths? That's great. Well, first off, I think you should live your life as though your works are going to be erased. Because when you're dead, they are erased to you, right? But okay, so the first one would be, and this is the essence of Stoic philosophy, I think, it says, you don't control what happens to you, you control how you respond. So that'd be truth number one. Truth number two would be what we talked about earlier, where you can't learn that which

you think you already know. I think that's an essential truth that puts you in a mindset to learn your entire life. You know what? I'll give you one more stoic quote. We'll make this all stoic. There's a line from Seneca where he's saying, some people lack the courage. What's he saying? Some people lack the courage to live the life they want and live only as they have begun, right? So that's the, that people lack the courage to change, to make, to, to do abrupt changes,

especially as they get later on in life. And I would say most of the big decisions in my life, you know, deciding to leave college, which was going well, the decision to leave American Apparel and become a writer, you know, the decision to not write marketing books, but to write about other things. These were dramatic changes that cost money, you know, or meant closing the door on big things, but opened up enormous upside. And so I think you have to –

just because you're good at something or just because you've done it for a long time is not necessarily a reason to continue that thing. I like that. What are yours? When you get a podcast, you ask me that. Okay. All right. I've actually said them on here before, so I'll have to go back and let you know what I said.

But what do you think the world needs more of? I would say right now, I mean, one of the things that stresses me out is a lack of tolerance. is a lack of tolerance. Both, I think we've become increasingly less tolerant, I mean, in this campaign, a less tolerance to, like, for instance, this backlash against immigrants, both in the United States and internationally. I mean, we're here in Los Angeles.

Los Angeles is awesome because it's filled with immigrants. New York is awesome because it's filled with immigrants. And the idea that immigrants make things worse is just not only economically false, but it's culturally false. And it's ethically bankrupt as well, right? Just because you're born here does not give you some special claim to this land over the rest of the world, right? And so I think a lack of tolerance of other people and their hopes and dreams is a big one that alarms me. But I think more like if we're more just talking about like America, I think our lack of tolerance of conflicting or unpleasant ideas is equally problematic. Right.

So I don't like the idea of safe spaces and, you know, calling people racists or bigots because you don't like what they're saying. I think you need to get to a point where you can deal with uncomfortable, unpleasant truths. There's a line from Epictetus where he says, when you're offended, your mind is complicit in the offense, right? So if you say something mean to me i choose whether i'm mad like i choose whether that offends me or whether i'm going to hold it against you right that part is on me and so i think we need to become tolerant of tolerant of unpleasant ideas incorrect ideas poorly articulated ideas because it's life is too short to be outraged about things, especially things that people have just said.

Like, I'd rather we focus on what people do. I like that. I like that. Is it more important to do or be? You know, there's actually, I think I know the question you're saying, and I would say it's more important to be, like to be true to what you're saying than, you know, to sort of be a good person rather than, you know. But I have a chapter in the book. There's this famous speech from John Boyd, and he would say this to every one of his young protégés.

He would say, to do or to be. It was called his to do or to be speech. And basically what he was saying is that being promoted and, you know, rising to responsibility and power and being recognized is not the same and is not as important as doing great work and affecting change behind the scenes. So it's like we become so obsessed with, you obsessed with being promoted or being recognized or getting credit. Right. It's like people would rather be a bestseller than write an amazing book. Right.

And that is totally wrong. Some people do that. They hack the system to just buy their way on. Absolutely. And that – so it's – do you want – like just because the rules are crooked and they are for the bestseller list, they're crooked as hell. They're worthless. But people spend hours and hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to game that system instead of spending that time making something that transcends that system and will outlast it and matter. system and will outlast it and matter. So I think in John Boyd, when he's saying to do or to be,

he's saying doing is more important than whether you get the credit for it or not. Gotcha. Gotcha. Before I ask the final question, I want to take a moment to acknowledge you, Ryan. Okay. I want to acknowledge you for your brilliance and your creativity and your ability to take major risks in your life when they are uncomfortable for you. Because I think there are so many people that are brilliant and creative that stay in the same game just to be more recognized and make more money. And you continue to follow your purpose as opposed to following the money. And in the process, you help so many people along the way. You've helped guide me in my journey with my book and my work.

You're always someone I can lean on with some great brilliance, and you've helped so many people. So I want to acknowledge you for constantly learning and realizing that you get to continue to learn along your journey and giving to so many people with the work you create. So I want to acknowledge you for that. And the final question I have is, what's your definition of greatness?

I'm trying to remember what I said last time. No, no, so I cannot say that. I think the definition of greatness is fulfilling whatever potential you have and then some, right? So – because people in your life, they see you and they recognize that you've got some potential and they sort of – you often – you have a sense of where someone is going to go almost better than they do. Right. But then I think true greatness is the, wow, where did that come from? Like little element right on top, right?

Like everyone knew Michael Jordan was a great basketball player. But that game where he played where he had the flu and he could barely stand up, that's like a where did that – like where is that? Do you know what I mean? And I love stories like that. Yeah. There you go. Ryan Holiday. Thanks, man. Thanks Holiday. Thanks, man.

Thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And let me ask you a question. Are you letting your ego get in the way? Are you even aware that your ego is holding you back? Or are you completely aware when your ego comes up and hold you back? Feel free to

tweet me right now at Lewis Howes and at Ryan Holiday and let me know if your ego has ever held you back in a situation and tweet me what that is. This episode is lewishowes.com slash 352. If you enjoyed it, please share it with your friends. Let your friends know about this as I think it's an important topic for us to think about and discuss and bring to light. Because the more we hold on to our ego and needing to be right and needing to be heard and needing to be acknowledged all the time and having it be our idea and get us getting the credit, the more chances we have for suffering, depression, anger, frustration, resentment, all these things come up. So it's important that we understand how to manage this thing called ego, because in some ways, it can move us forward. In other ways, it can hold us down and leave us crippled. So please share this with your friends lewishouse.com

slash 352. Also leave a comment on the blog and let me know what you thought. I'm super excited for you to get this one out there to your friends. And if this is your first time here on the podcast, please subscribe over on iTunes and leave a review. We have over a thousand five-star reviews. I'm super grateful for every one of them. And the reason we continue to grow this podcast is because people subscribe, they listen, they share, and they leave reviews. So if you have been listening for a while, you have not yet left a review, then now's the time.

I'm asking you, please, to leave a review. If this has brought any value to you in any way, let me know what you think. I'd love to get your feedback to continue to make this a better and better podcast to serve you. And last but not least, you guys know what to do. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you. Bye.