The School of Greatness - 376 Become a Love Warrior In and Out of Marriage with Glennon Doyle Melton

Episode Date: September 5, 2016

"We can either be shiny and admired or we can be real and loved." - Glennon Doyle Melton If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/376

This is episode number 376 with New York Times best-selling author Glennon Doyle. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to another edition with the lovely Glennon Doyle Melton, who is in the house in the greatness studio, super excited about this eye-opening,

heart-opening, expansive interview. For those that don't know who Glennon is, she is the author of the New York Times best-selling memoir, Carry On Warrior, and the brand new memoir, Love Warrior. Now, Glennon is also the founder of Momastery, which is an online community reaching millions of people each week. She's the creator and president of Together Rising, which is a nonprofit organization that has raised over $4 million for families around the world through its Love Flash mobs, which have revolutionized online giving.

Glennon is also a sought-after public speaker, and her work has been featured on the Today Show, The Talk, OWN, and NPR and in the New York Times, Newsweek, and in other television and print outlets. And in today's interview, we talk about what envy reveals to us about ourselves. Also why love does not cure addiction, how men and women interpret and give love differently and what to do about that. How to deal with a vulnerability hangover and why the way our society teaches us about males and females makes it nearly impossible to love each other. That's right. This was a fun one, an eye-opening and a heart-opening experience. I hope you get a lot out of this one.

Make sure to check out the full show notes, lewishouse.com slash 376, and share this with your friends. Check out the full video interview on YouTube. Make sure to watch and subscribe all of our interviews over on YouTube as well. And without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, Lennon Doyle Melton. Let me introduce to you the one, the only, Glennon Doyle Melton. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. We're very excited about our guest.

We have Glennon Doyle Melton in the house. Good to see you. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited. You've got a new book coming out, which I'm excited to talk about and dive in about. Yes. And you haven't written a book in a while, right? Right.

Years. When was the last time? Four years ago. Four years ago. 2012, I think. Yeah. Okay. And that wasn't even, I mean, that was a collection of essays.

So I learned that it's much harder to actually write a book. A full book, yeah. When I was writing the second book, I realized I had never written a book before. Oh, really? Okay. So it's brutally hard for me. But the first book was a realized I had never written a book before. Oh, really? Okay. This is brutally hard for me. But the first book was a New York Times bestseller. It was a huge hit.

Yeah. Big success. Yeah. And why do you think people resonated? What was the title of the first book? Carry On Warrior. And why do you think it was such a big hit? And why do you think people resonated with that topic?

I think I was just trying to – I was talking about things that, well, mostly women don't talk about. Like what? Pain and drinking too much and addiction and how freaking hard marriage is. Especially when you were raised in a culture that tells you that marriage is like the finish line.

That you just get married and then everything's happily ever after. But it hasn't been happily ever after. It's not freaking happily ever after for anyone. It hasn't been happily ever after. It's not freaking happily ever after for anyone. You know, it's a starting line. It's not a finish line. It's a starting line.

And love is hard. And it's not pink and unicorns, you know. Really? Hell, man. I mean, maybe it is for everyone else. It's not for me. You don't poop Skittles? No.

God, no. No one in my family does. Okay. They're hard to live with. They're amazing and wonderful. It's the best part of life, but it's also the hardest relationships. Okay. What do you think has been the most painful experience in your marriage?

I know what's been the most. So Love Warrior is the book that's coming out next. And that book is a book that I actually wrote in my closet. Your closet. Yeah. In my closet every morning. Literal closet. Yeah. I call it my cloth-ess.

Oh, interesting. I actually have a dark closet. It's great for someone who's like prone to depression to have to spend all day in like a 10 foot. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but so after 10 years of marriage,

um, Craig and I were in therapy one day just working on some communication stuff. And he, he told me that he'd been unfaithful in our, in the marriage, in therapy for the first time revealing this. Yeah. And our therapist didn't even know. And I was absolutely clueless.

Whenever people say to me or said to me in the past, I didn't see it coming or I didn't know, I would always think, come on, I'm serious. Yeah, but you really didn't see it coming. I had no idea. And oh my God, I remember that day like it was yesterday, just listening to that news. And so after that time, Craig moved out and our life just crumbled. Did you get separated or just not divorced?

Not divorced. I mean, I planned to divorce, but we were separated. And I was just doing what women do. I was just like holding my breath and trying to smile and trying to keep my kids okay. We had three little ones who had – this was completely out of the blue for them too because they had – I mean, they had – Craig's an amazing dad and they had a happy life. So it was terrible. And so anyway, I just would write in the morning.

It was the only time that I had to – I write to just kind of – I write like a detective looks for clues. Like I'm clueless all day and then I kind of – I have no freaking idea what's going on. And then if I have an hour where I can type out words and I can kind of see the patterns in my life and get clues on what to do next. But I never – so I wrote every day and it was just how I stayed sane during that time. Because you kind of have to pretend like everything's okay especially when you have kids

you have to act like you know you can't be in breakdown constantly they're gonna be like what's wrong they're gonna be no the mom's job

is just to like smile as the Titanic is like you know everybody just keep dancing keep playing the music it's fine we're fine

yeah so that was my honest time. Wow. And I never thought that I would have moved out for, so we were separated for, I guess, six months. Um, and then the thing is I, so I had been to rock. This is like, I think, I think about this as like the rock bottom of my marriage. Right. But the good news is that I'd been to rock bottom before. I've been an addict since I was 10. I became bulimic when I was 10. It's happy unicorn life.

I'm still laughing, so it's okay. I became bulimic when I was 10, and then I never really got that worked out. It just morphed into other addictions, as addiction does. Sex or whatever. All of it. All of them. So it just morphed into other addictions as addiction does, you know, sex or whatever. Right. And all of it, all of them. I'm just recovering everything. So, um, so when I, on Mother's Day, 13 years ago, I found, I was just found myself on a

floor just shaking from a hangover and terror and staring at a positive pregnancy test. And so that is like the first moment that I thought I want to be a mom. Like, I think it's the first time I ever wanted to be some, anything more than I wanted to be numb. And I, I, I just learned early on that life was scary and hard and I was going to hide in addiction. I think addiction is really a hiding place for sensitive people. You know, it's just a place where you can go and feel safe and comfortable and love

and pain can't touch you. Control, I guess, right? Right. You're in control of your own pain. But the thing is that love and pain are the only things that you grow from. So you're safe, but you don't grow. Right. Um, but I, because that rock bottom moment, that rock bottom moment on the bathroom floor

was the best moment of my entire life. Like it felt like the end of the world because I knew I was going to have to, in order to become a mother, I knew I was going to have to give up my whole life because my whole life was alcohol and partying. So it felt like the end, but it was actually the beginning. And everything beautiful in my life has come from that bathroom floor moment. So I knew enough during that rock bottom, my marriage to know that rock bottom can be the most powerful place on earth. If you can stay with it. You're aware of it in the moment. Yeah, totally. I mean, I always have two of me. There's the part of me that's like freaking out. That's in deep pain.

And then there's the writer part of me. That's like, Oh, this is interesting. This is like some good material down with it and like go deeper, you know? Um, so yeah, I mean, I knew that I had to like dive into it and figure out what it all meant. And that's when I, I ended up in therapy. Craig ended up in therapy and he just completely, he just didn't have a prideful bone in his body. He just did all the work while I was doing my work and we ended up eventually coming back together, but as completely different people in a completely different marriage. Sure.

Which is interesting, right? Wow. You can have a new marriage and with the same person. So it was a six-month separation and he came back. You decided that it was worth coming back. He obviously probably didn't want to leave, I'm assuming. Well, after six... No, God, no.

He didn't want to leave. No. He was sharing in a very... He was willing to do anything. Yeah. In a fearful way. It wasn't like, I'm saying this and whatever happens, happens to leave. No, he was, he was sharing anything in a fearful way. It wasn't like I'm saying this and whatever happens happens. No, no. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, this could never ever work for anyone unless both people are 150 million percent dedicated to doing

whatever it takes, you know? And that's why so many of my friends have loved their marriages, um, and put as much hope and love as I did. And it doesn't work because the other person isn't, you can't control how much the other person wants it. You know, there has to be nothing that matters except for beginning again. Yeah. So when did you realize that you really didn't want it and you didn't want to get a divorce? Well, after six months, we moved back in together, but we were in different rooms. After six months was when I was like, I will consider trying.

That wasn't when I was like, I love you. That was when- I'm open to the potential possibility. Right. Of not murdering you. Yeah. And I'm not making any promises about that. So we moved back in,

but we were like in two different rooms still. And that's when we started therapy together. Okay. But that was just the beginning. I mean, we're still now like working, working, working. It's been years.

Letting go of her pain. Yeah. Fears. Cause it's not like, I mean, this was years ago. Yeah. Four years ago. Okay. And it still can feel fresh. I mean, This was years ago. Yeah, four years ago.

And it still can feel fresh. And I've talked to so many women about that that it feels frustrating because you feel like you make progress and things are getting normal again and then one day you wake up and it's like all the pain's there again. What happens? Some type of trigger? Oh yeah, whatever it is. I mean, for me,

it's because I'm always, because I'm writing books about it. Poor Craig, right? Did you forget you married a writer? And you're the main subject. You're the main character of everything in my book. Yeah. Right. But I think the progress through something like this, through something traumatic is more – it's not linear.

It's not like we go from like healthy or unhealthy to healthy or failure to success. I think it's all circular. You just come back around to the same pain and the same loneliness, but each time you come around, you're stronger from the climb. You know, I can feel it. Like I can feel myself. I mean, in the beginning when my imagination would go crazy and I, it would just lay me out. I mean, I wouldn't even be able to get out of bed and now it comes around. It's just like, Oh, there it is again. We're going around and around and getting stronger each time. So it's a journey. But yeah, that was definitely the most painful moment.

Do you believe pain is a choice we all have or is it something necessary for all of us to experience in order to grow? Oh my God. Well, first of all, I'm so excited about pain. I can't believe you just asked me that question. So I'm somebody who avoided pain completely the first 25 years of my life, right? Because I just thought I couldn't take it. So whatever it took to hide from the pain, right? Food, booze, whatever. Recently, I figured out, oh my God, I think that everything that I need to become who I'm meant, the woman I'm meant to be is actually inside of that pain. So sitting in this hot yoga class, right when everything went crazy and miserable and just so, and I, um, I ended up just sitting

still for 90 minutes because I couldn't move. I wasn't too depressed. And, um, I had this crazy experience where every single fear and pain that I'd ever have were just like popping up in front of me. And I had nothing to, I'm so used to like doing whatever it takes to avoid the pain, you know? Um, it was like a game of whack-a-mole where there's no, um, there's no mallet and all your, all the moles are like your deepest fears and pain. Um, and I was crying through the whole yoga class. And at the end of the yoga class, the yoga instructor comes around and it was like, she knew it was happening. She goes, that was the journey of the warrior. And I was like, what the hell? Yoga is so weird. So, so I get in my van and I'm driving home and I have this deja vu experience. So I

get to my house and I open up this book that I've been reading. Um, and it was by Pimma Shadron's Buddhist monk. And, and the paragraph said, if you can sit with the hot loneliness today for 1.6 seconds, when yesterday you could only sit with it for one, then that's the journey of the warrior. And I realized, oh my God, this is what I've been doing since I was 10 years old. Like when I was 10 years old, I started having these feelings of fear, pain, like uncomfortable feelings, like fear and envy and loneliness and otherness. And, and since we only talk about shiny, happy feelings, I thought there was something wrong with me. You know, I thought that these feelings were something to be ashamed of, something to numb. So the amazing thing is that right when you start feeling your hot loneliness,

the world starts showing you all these easy buttons, right? So like mine was food. The second the hot loneliness would start bubbling inside, I'd numb it with food. Then it was booze. Then it was drugs. Some people's is other people's bodies, sex, shopping, unkindness. All of these things are easy buttons that we use to transport ourselves out of our pain. To not feel. To not feel. But the problem with transporting is that you miss all your transformation because all the lessons that we need to know to become the people we're meant to be are inside the pain. And I was like, oh my God, this is, I am like a butterfly, like a caterpillar jumping out

of the cocoon right before I would become a butterfly. Because we think of pain as like a hot potato. You know, like the second we feel it, we need to get rid of it. Like unkindness. Every time someone's unkindness kind to you, it's just that they just felt the hot loneliness, but they thought it was a hot potato. So instead of feeling it, they pass it on to you. Right. But pain is not, it's pain it was a hot potato. So instead of feeling it, they pass it on to you. But pain is not a hot potato. It's like, I think of it now as like a traveling professor.

Like it comes and it knocks on everyone's door and the wisest people I know just say, come in and don't leave. So that's why I have this beast. I have beast still tattooed on my wrist because I think that being able to be still inside of pain and just letting it come and know whatever it is, fear, anger, loneliness, envy, just letting it come and knowing that it will, that it's a teacher and it'll leave you with what is the opposite of addiction, the opposite of compulsion, you know? So God, I think, I think pain is not only, no, I don't think it's a choice. I mean, suffering is a choice. Suffering is what happens when we try to avoid pain.

Yes. Like suffering is what happens when we numb, when we – God, we all know addicts who – I mean I ruined my family for 20 years. That's suffering because I chose not to feel my own pain because it doesn't just disappear. It goes somewhere. So if I don't deal with my own pain, then it goes on to my family. That's suffering. So that's optional. But pain is just, I mean, I think we could learn so much from it, like envy. So that's like a hot potato, painful emotion that people just get rid of all the time. So for me, envy looks like, so I read an awesome article that someone's

written, like a woman that's written and I read it and I'm like, oh my God, this is so freaking awesome. And it just gets better and better. And by the end of it, I'm like, I never liked her. I just don't like her. Like she might be a good writer, but, and that's a lovely way to live, you know, with envy. But when I think about envy closer, so when I was drinking all the time, if someone handed me a book written by a woman and they said they loved it, I wouldn't read it. Really? Because I was like looking straight at the sun. It was like, there was like a part of me that knew that a braver, better version of

me could do that. Like I was meant to do that and I wasn't doing it. And there's nothing more painful than seeing someone doing something that you feel like you were meant to do, right? So maybe we're only envious of people who are doing what we're meant to do. And also that you're not taking any steps towards doing it yourself. Exactly. It's even worse.

Yeah. But if we use it as an arrow instead of a hot potato, every time you feel envious of someone, don't let it go. Look closer because maybe it's an arrow pointing you towards what you're meant to create. That's interesting. So I don't know. I'm just so – I feel like for someone who wasted her pain for so long, I'm just curious about it now.

What is this here to teach me? What is this here to teach me? That's cool that you're doing that now. I mean, as an athlete, I experience pain all the time, you know, just emotional pain, physical pain through my sport, through the transformation of practice, you know, constantly getting broken down by the coach or by whatever the game, the situation, the opponent being broken down mentally, physically, emotionally, and being in it. You can't just like leave the game or leave the practice, you know,

sticking it out to the end and seeing what's possible on the other side has always been powerful for me as an athlete. And it's something that I talk about in my book is experiencing pain every day as a way to train yourself, to be prepared for the bigger, scarier moments of life and not shy away from them, but to be ready and show up and face the journey like a warrior. So, you know, a simple way to experience pain every day in my mind is just to work out. You know, every time I run three miles, I'm exhausted. I want to quit, you know, but it's like, let's just get through this. Let's experience it.

Let's feel it and notice where the pain is coming from, my lungs, my legs, my breath, my mind. And it just continues to build my pain threshold up for something bigger or scarier that i can handle and you learn that from athletics that's so interesting because that is athletes are people who stay with the pain but most of us don't do i mean we don't learn that like where else do you learn that other than that's why i think sports is huge for kids i mean i was just my i I just started running. Okay. Which there's nothing that I hate more than running.

It's the worst thing on earth. I don't even like people who run, but my kid, I don't even know. I'm just like, what are you doing? Like you're gonna end up in the same spot. Just sit down. But, um, but my kid is a, is a cross country runner. And so my friend asked me to start running and I was running with chase and I got this horrible cramp in my side. And he said, listen, mom, the thing is you think it's going to get worse and that's why you're

scared, but it's not just keep running. Just keep running. It's not going to get worse. Just keep running. And I thought how much of it is fear. It's not the actual pain. It's like this fear that somehow it's going to destroy me. Like this little cramp is going to take me down. And he was saying to me, no, no, just feel it. Take the fear away from it. Just feel it. It's there and keep going. That's pretty bad. It's interesting you said that. I was watching briefly a Will Smith movie earlier. I can't remember which one it is, but his son is in it. And at one point he's telling his son, you know, fear is not real.

It's a choice. Danger is very real. But fear is a choice that we have every single day. It's an illusion. So it's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. It's like that whole the only thing we have to fear is fear.

Yeah. Right? And it's like for me, when I think to be, I don't want to be afraid of pain anymore. I just want to be afraid of the easy buttons. You know, I don't want to be afraid. That's who you were for 20 years, 30 years. Yeah.

I was so afraid of pain when I really should have been afraid of the overeating and the drinking and the, I was, I should have been afraid of all the things that we're trying to, that I thought were going to kill the pain. So now I'm just scared of all of those things. That's interesting. Now, who was the most influential person in your life growing up? I mean, I have an amazing family, both of my parents and my sister. I mean, my sister who's here now, who's with me everywhere I go.

My sister and I have been inseparable since she was born. When I started drinking so much, that was the biggest loss in my life is that you can't have, you can't have a close relationship when your best friend is alcohol, you know? So, um, so we were just broken for 25 years, really. I mean, just broken from, from that addiction. Um, and the second I was ready, I mean, from that bathroom floor, from the bathroom floor, the call I made was to my sister. And she came and literally picked me up off the floor and put me in a car and took me to my first meeting. And since then, we haven't, there has not been one day when we haven't talked, including, I mean, when I started writing was because she brought me a laptop and was like, this is what you're meant to do. I want you to sit down every day.

She was leaving. She moved to Rwanda. She joined the International Justice Mission and was prosecuting child rapists in Rwanda. She said, I'm going to go do my thing. You're going to stay and do your thing. And you're going to get up every day and write. And I'm going to go do my thing. You're going to stay and do your thing. And you're going to get up every day and write. And I'm going to go do this thing that I need to do. And by the time she came back, Momastery was off and running.

Blown up. Yeah. It's amazing. Momastery is your blog. Yes. Momastery is my blog. Where you write about this journey, these experiences. Yeah.

And specifically, mostly for women, right? Yeah. But a lot of guys are, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, basically all we do is tell the truth. You know, we talk about all of it. It started off talking a lot about motherhood growing and my world is getting bigger, we're just talking, we talk about everything. We talk about faith and love and hope and healing and addiction and all of it. What was the biggest lesson your sister taught you? Just show up. My sister's the best shower upper I've ever met. What does that mean to you to show up? Well, I don't know. I think some people and I do this. We all, we think that when we, in order to be effective, in order to be a friend, in order to be a mother or a husband,

we have to like say the right thing or do the right thing or be the right thing. And so that keeps us from just showing up for each other. And know, and I think that we, we freak ourselves out. That's up that fear thing. My sister is the one who just, she's there no matter what. She doesn't worry about saying the right thing. She doesn't wish. She's just, you know, that when you pick up a phone, she's going to be there 10 minutes later, or she's going to, you know, she's on a, the day after I called her from the parking lot after that therapy session. And she was on a plane the next morning to my house, you know, just like the showing up because we never remember what people said. Like it's not, that's not the point.

The point is I'm in this place in my life and I know that you're going to be there. Like just your body, you know, just your being is going to be there. She's taught me so much. Why do you think she showed up for you after essentially it sounds like you were neglecting her friendship or relationship for so many years? Why do you think she was like, I'll be there for you even though you, I'm assuming, weren't there for her through your addictions? No, I wasn't. So why do you think she was so willing?

Somebody asked her that at a speaking event. We do our speaking events together now. So it's like she and I just talking back and forth on a stage. just talking back and forth on a stage. Um, and somebody said, how could you just be so, you know, cause, cause, um, addiction can cause so much damage in relationships. So how, how are you able to love her so well after all of that? And what I thought was interesting is that she's a very, very healthy person. Like she's a very healthy person. So she seems very healthy. Yeah. And so she has really good boundaries. I don't even know what boundaries are. Like I, she, um, she, and she kept really good boundaries even for loving me so much.

She understood that this is a monster between us. Like this addiction is a monster. And the thing about a monster is that it hurts everybody in the area. Right? So what she said from stage was that she thinks she kept healthy enough boundaries that our relationship wasn't ruined. Because what happens with a lot of people who love addicts is they stay close and they get torn to shreds.

So she essentially didn't talk to you that much. No. Yeah. I mean, she loves you. It was at a surface level and it was from afar and it was- Right. And she was checking it, but she wasn't enmeshed with me. It wasn't allowing her to control her life or consume her, let you take advantage of her,

make her feel wrong or bad or something. Or take over her life. Yeah, which happens a lot for people. So many people who love addicts, their life stops. My life stopped when I was 10. My sister's life could have stopped too. If she would have just stayed right there with me

when I sat down in the sand and said I'm not going any further, she could have stayed there and just let her entire life revolve around me. And that would have helped neither of us. We probably wouldn't even be friends now because she would be resentful. But because she went on with her life, the second I called her and said, I'm ready, she was able to be there. And ever since, you know, so I think it has a lot to do with healthy boundaries.

That's smart. It's great to know boundaries. It's tough to like not be there for your sibling or your daughter or your son or your parents if they're going through that. You know, when has it become too much? When has it become you're actually not being there for them or you're not making a stand for them and blurring the line between it's controlling and manipulating? Yeah. How do you someone navigate that?

Like I'm going to be there for my family member, my partner, whatever. or my partner or whatever, how many years do you go through of them taking advantage of the situation or your love and kindness before it's too much? Is that a gut feeling? Is that a – I think it is. Yeah. I mean, I think what – the only thing that I can say to that is when you know it, know it.

Yeah. I mean, most people know it and then they go five more years. Be aware of it. Yeah. No. Like when you – when in the depths of your heart, you know, I'm actually not showing up for her anymore. I'm showing up for her addiction.

Cause that's what we do. I mean, we co, we become codependent and like, so I don't know how many parents, I mean, I, I, I talked to mental health professionals all the time. That's one of the groups that I talked to the most. And so many, I mean, so, you know, I'm, I'm showing up for her. I'm, I'm cleaning, I'm doing her laundry when she passes out. I'm doing the, I'm, that's not, you know, I'm, I'm showing up for her. I'm, I'm cleaning, I'm doing her laundry when she passes out. I'm doing the, I'm, that's not, you're, you're, you're showing up for her disease. You're allowing the disease to, it's not love, right? I mean,

love is not, love is not that easy and it's not that hard, right? Love is not like I will continue. I think my parents loved me well because they were like, we cannot see you do this anymore. And I know that they cried themselves to sleep at night, but there was a, um, nobody was helping me with my alcoholism. You know, I was, maybe that's why I was, that's why I was able to hit rock bottom earlier than I was there for you. I mean, nobody was going to be there for me until I was going to be there for myself. You showed up.

Yeah. The person who needed to show up first was me. Now, how does I get that? And I understand it. But one, let's just say you kind of clear ties with the person who's got the addiction and you're not there for them as much and they keep reaching out to you. And then all of a sudden they commit suicide. How do you know? Like, how do you know?

How do you navigate this? Do you not navigate this? Yeah. Or just be like, oh, I could have been there for them. Or I don't know. How does someone, cause I'm assuming that's happened many times where people said, okay, I'm not going to be there for you because you have this addiction. So figure it out. And when you're ready and when you want support, come to me and then the life is over. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's brutal. I mean, I don't think it gets much brutal than that. I mean, by the time somebody gets to suicide, that's a major, major mental health issue, right? I mean, that's not any, the problem is, is that you're using the wrong currency to try to solve something. So no mental illness, including addiction,

including depression, including anxiety has ever been cured by love. Okay. That's like trying to like, no, love does not cure mental addiction. Love does not cure cancer. Love does not cure diabetes. Right. And love does not cure mental illness. Like that's the thing, but we don't, but if, but if someone with cancer dies, we don't say I didn't love them enough. Right. But mental illness is a, I mean, I'm mentally ill. I have a depression. I have anxiety. I have major prone – I'm majorly prone to addiction. I have serotonin issues in my brain that I need medication for. I mean, whenever someone says, what are you depressed about? I say, what are you diabetic about? It's like it's an actual medical condition, right? And by the time somebody gets to suicide, man, I mean, that's far down the mental illness. That's like a nine or 10 or an 11 off the scale, right?

So, I mean, at some point we have to, if we could shift the thinking from mental illness as some kind of personality, lack of love, it's not, it can't be cured by love. Like no matter how much somebody loves me, they're never going to cure me of my depression. Right. Unless they have shots of serotonin that they can stick into my brain, you know? So, um, I, I think that once we change the conversation to be accurate about mental health, that kind of guilt and shame will go away because people will understand that you do not love somebody out of addiction. Interesting. So I'm curious, how did you guys reconnect then? What happened after you guys moved back in? What was the next steps?

Therapy together. Yeah. And then when did you realize, okay, I'm going to give this a chance again? Well, we started therapy. All right. So at first I started therapy separately and he was in therapy separately. Because I knew we have to dive in. because I knew we have to like dive in. So, so what I figured out is that, that I was having major issues with intimacy because that's what happens in therapy. You

think you're going in to fix someone else and then you get screwed with all this stuff you still have to work on. Right. So I, since I became bulimic when I was 10, I just bought into all the weird messages that the world gives girls about their bodies. Right. And so what happens to a lot of women young is that, you know, so for body, mind and spirit, we're Trinity's body, mind and spirit girls. We get so many confusing messages about our bodies that basically at some point we just disassociate, we like vote our body off the island. Okay. We stop, um, understanding at a very deep level that we, that our bodies are a part of us,

which makes sense because women's bodies are commodities, right? We're taught early on that your body is to sell your body is to whatever. Yeah. Yeah. This is not a spirit. This is not your spiritual home. This is like a Victoria's secret, but we, whatever. So, um, so what my therapist said is we need to like have a reunion. We need to like pull you back together. We need to make you whole again, you know, like vote your body back on the island. So basically I was like, that sounds really hard. Do you have any more pills? Right. She was like, no.

Can you just fix it with the easy button? Yeah. She was like, no, we're going to do the work. We're going to do the work. So that's why I was having, I was just having lots and lots of issues with sex. Like I couldn't figure out how to use my body to love and be loved. To be intimate. Yeah.

Like I mean I would be there but I wouldn't be there. Like I would be like hanging out above the sex happening and I would – Emotionally you were somewhere else. I was like I'm just going to make the grocery list. It's interesting because most women are usually, it seems like they're more emotionally connected than the men, right? Especially when sex, they don't want to be, I don't know. I get an idea that most women are more present.

Yeah. But when we think of emotionally, that's because you guys love with your bodies. Yes. So, okay. This is perfect, right? Because so when I'm having a conversation, I'm like there. I'm like, yes, we are. We are loving each other.

Oh, my God. This is love. And our souls. Yeah. And this is it. Because I body and spirit. Yeah. Right.

If we're having a meeting of the minds or meeting of the soul, I'm like, this is love. Right. Craig is a boy. All right. He's a man now. But he was a boy once, okay? He's a male. So body, mind, and spirit.

He was taught at a young age, the same world that was giving me all the confusing messages about my body was giving him very confusing messages about emotions. Right. Right? That's what we were talking about before. Great. He's a boy. He's not allowed to feel.

He's not allowed to... So then he voted that off the island. Yes. So then here we were talking about before. He's a boy. He's not allowed to feel. He's not allowed to. So then he voted that off the island. So then here we are, two people. I'm trying to love him with my mind and my spirit. He doesn't live there. He doesn't even feel it. He doesn't understand I'm trying to give love. And he's trying to love with his body because that's what's real to him.

And I'm like, that's not real. It doesn't feel real to me. So we are completely missing each other right no wonder it didn't work for 10 years for both you in some way totally and i think that and and like we had to start over man i mean i had to like we had to like start holding hands you didn't hold hands before yeah but i wasn't there like i didn't understand what's going on. Yeah, I wasn't. No, I was like, ugh. Actually, we had to practice kissing. Really? Yes. Oh my god,

Louis, it was so weird. So you could just be present in the moment? We had to practice eye contact. Like all of these things that were so threatening to me. Because threatening, then you go into fight or flight. Flight, I'm gone. Right? So I'm gone. Right? So I am gone.

With him, with any kind of conversation where I wanted to go deeper. He was gone. Gone. Fight or flight. I feel threatened. I can't do this. I'm good. He wouldn't even look you in the eye probably.

He's just like, eh. I was taught young that this isn't, yeah. Or he'd just start panicking and saying things that didn't make sense. It's a whole different language. Because guys are like sports weather guys. I don't know how you guys make it. Like you have all the human feelings we have and they're stuck talking about this BS all the time.

I mean, we need a revolution, but, um, so it was a practice. It was a practice of me starting to understand that my body actually is a part of me that can offer and receive love and him understanding that his emotions are a part of him that can give and receive love. Yeah. Right. So he had to practice loving me with his mind and I had to practice loving him with my body. And so that very interesting thing happens when relationships where these terrible things happen, like our rock bottom, they come into our life to heal. I mean, I had a part of me that needed to heal. Right. And he had a part of him that needed to heal and they were like completely

separate. So the amazing thing I think about is regardless of whether my marriage, we made it and for now, but like if we hadn't, it still would have been a freaking miracle because I became whole because of it and he became whole because of it. So if we would have gone our separate ways, we still, it still would have been a major redemption story.

Yeah. You know? So I don't think of it as like our story is wonderful because we stayed together at all. I think our story is wonderful because we use something really crappy to become more whole. Yeah. Interesting. So where are you guys at now?

Everything working perfectly? Oh, yes. It's like Disney, Louis. It's like perfect. Mickey Mouse is running around everywhere. Oh, my God. All we do is smile and run through the sunflowers. No, I mean, it's good. It's what marriage is. It's lots of moments that are so joyful that you just can't believe you get to spend your life with this person and other moments where you're like, Oh my God, I'm spending my life with this person. Like that's, you know, I mean, love is just a relentless showing up and it just creates this like alchemy in you where you figure, you know, it's a, it's a spiritual practice for me. Like

every single thing that bugs me about Craig ends up being something that I need to heal in myself. So, um, no, it's not all perfect and there's still all kinds of pain. And some days I wake up and I feel like I'm exactly back in that therapy room and it's all fresh and new. Um, and that's when it's Craig's turn to be, to relentlessly show up and to not allow pride to be a part of our marriage. That's tough for a man. Yeah, it is. I mean, can you imagine what he's been through? Like with this whole, like he has had to re, it reminds me of that scripture that's like, you have to lose your life to find it. I mean, he's had to lose everything that he thought he was and just build himself up again.

It's fascinating to watch. What do you think you cry about the most? Oh God. Well, for me especially, that's a hard question because I cry all the time. I just watched the last episode of Parenthood last night and I was in convulsion. I was crying so hard. Let's say when you're alone by yourself in the middle of the night, maybe you're not alone, but when you're alone to your thoughts, what is

the thing that makes you cry the most? Okay. I have some great fears that make me cry. One is I'm scared for my kids. I'm scared that like living this life out loud, um, will cause them harm that I can't see. Yeah. Because I don't know what it is.

You know, um, it's hard enough to have a family that's imperfect we all have families that are imperfect and we've talked to our kids about this we we they know everything sure um which is hard yeah and then all our friends know whatever yeah so that's hard i mean friends moms know or whatever you know because they read your books yeah that kind of stuff and i don't care about those people. I really don't. I could care less. I mean, I know that everybody's underneath everybody's house. There's fires.

Right. I mean, I know enough. I talked to enough women to know that there's nobody's life that's perfect. Right. But not knowing how living all of this out loud will really affect my kids. Okay. That scares me. And losing the people in my life scares the crap out of me.

Like just becoming an age where I look at friends and they're losing their parents or losing people that I love. Who's the person that scares you the most to lose? My sister. Isn't that terrible? Because I know right away I should say my husband or my kids. But I mean, siblings, man, those are the ones who are with you from the time you're born until the time you die. Like, I don't know.

We talk probably eight times a day. Wow. I mean, every hour. It's ridiculous. I think of her as like one of my lungs. You know, I don't know how. Everything that I do is to make her proud. Wow.

Isn't that weird? No, they're already so proud of me. Like they're just glad I'm vertical, Lewis. I mean, they're just like, oh my God, you're like a citizen. You're like an upstanding citizen. You have a library card. They just didn't see it. The driver's license is not revoked.

You're not in jail. This is so amazing. Why your sister? Do you have any other siblings? No. It's just the two of us. Why to make her proud and not your husband or your kids? I don't know.

Well, first of all, we're on this journey together. She works with you. We do mom and stay together. Yeah, she's working with you. Yeah. So this is, I mean, this journey is separate from my husband and kids in a way that's important for it to be separate. I want my family life to be my family life.

Like I don't do anything like that. I don't do anything in my town. No one in my town cares or knows anything about my life. You're kind of like a retired town in Naples, right? I mean, it's in Naples, so no one even has the internet. Everyone's 90. Yeah, exactly. Right? And in bed by seven. I've been to Naples, yes. mean, it's in Naples, so no one even has the internet. Everyone's 90, right? And in bed by seven. I've been to Naples, yes.

Yeah, it's exactly my speed, Louis. So awesome. Nine o'clock, everyone's lights out in Naples. What's the thing you, it's Amanda, right? Yeah. What's the thing you admire about her the most? Well, she's everything that I'm not. So that's the other thing.

Like we make up, we're like one brain. So I'm all the creative. I'm all the feeling. She's a lawyer. She does absolutely everything that I can't do. So the amazing thing about that is I feel like oftentimes in friendships or marriages or there's the practical one and then there's the dreamer one. And the dreamer one gets to be the dreamer one because there's a practical one right like so i can only be me because there's her yeah i can only kind of makes you feel safe to go a little crazy yeah and stuff gets done you know i mean i wouldn't we would have no business i wouldn't be here there's no way i would have made it here i wouldn't have

made the flight i wouldn't like i can be myself and always be thinking of these big, creative, beautiful things because she's handling the business. And that's a little bit how Craig is too. I think people – the dreamer types are often attracted to the practical. My friend calls it the kite holder and the kite. It's hard to have two dreamers in a relationship because someone has got to step up and say, let's get something done. Let's be practical. And then they become a little resentful that they can't do what they're supposed to do. Right. It's like the dreamers has to have a little bit of practicality in them to be able to get things done. If you've got to be able to wake

up and brush your teeth, you know, and put clothes on and like, yeah. Or if you have a sister, I mean, my sister's two days ago is like, I'm out. And she's like, did you put sunscreen on? She's texting me. Like, it's stuff like that. I'm like, oh, my God, no. I didn't put sunscreen on. So you have so many things in your mind that you're, you know, constantly. This is why people like me are always running into doors and, like, slamming things.

You know, we can't find our keys. We're like, but it's not, we don't, we say it's not because we're disorganized. It's because we're thinking of very important things. We can't think of the mundane things. Right, right, right. But Craig is like that too. And I think I have – I actually deep in my heart have I think a big, maybe even bigger respect for the practical ones than the dreamers. It's hard.

Because I just feel like they're doing the – they're making it happen while we get to do our whatever. And Craig's a lot like that too. Every morning my vitamins are all lined up. He does all the cooking. He does everything. He's a wife. He's my wife. I mean, we figured out early on our relationship that our roles needed to be reversed because I was trying to cook and it was a disaster every night. Like, and then he took over,

we switched roles and everything like started working. Wow. If you like throw all those roles up and all the things that need to be done as a married couple. And instead of just like letting them fall where they're typically female or typically male, you actually figure out who likes to do who's better. Right. It works do who's better.

It works out so much better. He really loves cooking. There you go. I know. My kids don't even cry at dinner anymore. Our buddy, Rob Bell, he loves to cook now too. I don't know if you know that. Yes.

Yes. He's big into cooking. Kristen was like, he just wants to cook all the time now. And nobody's complaining, right? Exactly. He loves it. And maybe there's different, based on what stage of life we're in, those rules will change. Yeah.

Maybe. I don't think that one will change. I feel confident letting him have it until we die. Really? Yeah. Who knows? You want to pick it up one day. Maybe. You'll see it as a creative, the next book to write will involve cooking or something.

That would be something. And you'll just get to play. Right. And he'll be organized with how much ingredients. And you'll just get to play. Right. And he'll be organized with how much ingredients. Exactly. He'll do the shopping. Exactly. Very cool.

What would you say is the thing you admire the most about Craig? I know what that is. Even when I've never seen, when I said the showing up thing about my sister, I've never seen someone show up as relentlessly as Craig Melton did after our implosion. Afterwards, he should continue to show up. Oh my God, Lewis. Like I was, we had conversations where I was like, listen to me.

I am never coming back to you. Like it's done. It's over. I'm going for divorce. I'm never speaking to you again. I'm never. Like you're, you're wasting your time. And he would say, I don't care.

Like if it's, if it's the rest of my life, I'm going to keep. He's like, go do what you need to do. Go whatever. You are my wife. And no matter what you do, I'm going to keep showing up for you. And it was just a relentless. It wasn't like weird stalkerish. It was like every day.

I'd go out and there would be groceries on the front step. I'd go out to my car and all the oil would be changed. I'd go out like every freaking day for months. I'm telling you, he would have done it for a decade. I think he was just, and I think so many, so many people just give up, you know, and I don't mean give up. I think there's, I do not think that all marriages should be saved. I know I'm not one of those at all.

Like I think there are plenty of marriages that just need to die so there can be new life, you know? Um, but one thing that I respect about him is that he just did not go down without a fight and it would have been so easy for him to just be swallowed up in shame and to let, have let that take him out of the game. Um. And he didn't. So, I mean, he fought like hell for his family. And I respect that. And were you ever unfaithful with him?

No. No. I mean, are you kidding? I like didn't even want to make out with him. I wasn't going to go make out with other people. I was like, it's taken me long enough just to figure out the sex thing with my husband. But you know what? Like when you say that, like, are you unfaithful?

I mean, I just think that sex for Craig was his easy button. I think that's what he learned growing up. He's a great looking guy. Like, girl, sex for him has always been. I see photos with you guys. Yeah, he's really freaking good looking. He's a good looking dude. I know.

I know. Can you imagine the poor guy? He's probably like looking. He's a good looking dude. I know. I know. Can you imagine the poor guy? He's probably like, why don't you want to make out with me? Exactly. But I understand easy buttons. You know, I was, I guess in every way you could say I was unfaithful to my family growing up. I mean, I used alcohol and other things. But it was lucky for him that I understood that concept.

That I understand that you can love someone and let something like sex or booze or drugs get in the way. I knew that because I'd done it for, I love my family. I love my sister. I love, and I still chose alcohol and drugs over them forever. So I understood that concept, you know? So, I mean, I have never been unfaithful with sex with Craig, but I've certainly been unfaithful to, um, the people that I love with things like sex and booze and all of that. So I get it. Sure. Yeah. And you could also say that you were essentially unfaithful for 10 years by not actually being there with him for the thing that he needed or thing that he wanted, right? Totally. Totally.

You were somewhere else. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, if there has to be, I mean, to really be in love. I mean, I think of being in love. I think it's interesting that people call it in love, like it's a place. Because it really, to me, the way I understand it now is it's a place. Like it's a place that you fall into with someone else where you are completely present

body, mind and spirit, right? Like who you're, you're like loving someone with your mind. You're loving someone with your soul and you're loving someone with your body. Like that's being in love. And so I was never that with Craig because I couldn't be vulnerable with my body. You know, I just, so, so that's interesting, right? Like that's the difference in like a truly intimate relationship is that with other people or with other, you can be, you can have a meeting of the minds, you can have a meeting

of the soul, but to really be in that magical intimate place, you have to be fully present all three. Yeah. Now, most people probably don't know listening. For those that listened to an episode I did about, I think it was about a year and a half ago, two years ago, I did an episode about experience I had as a kid where I was raped by another man that I didn't know. And I remember you kind of guided me through this. You coached me through this. So thank you again for being there for me. It was like an incredibly challenging, scary moment. So I appreciate you being there for me. And I remember

you saying something like, just get ready because you're about to have a big hangover. Something along that, like a vulnerability hangover. And I didn't know what you were even talking about until hundreds of emails came in, messages that were just like heartbreaking, you know, for people sharing their stories about sexual experiences that happened to them, sexual abuse that happened to them when they were younger and opening up for the first time. And just like my heart broke every time I read an email. And for like a week and a half, I just wasn't myself. It was just like reading these emails, trying to like figure out what's happening.

And it was just really heartbreaking. So I'm curious, how do you handle a vulnerability hangover and how would you coach someone else in that process as well? I was so proud of you for that. Thank you. That was so amazing. I appreciate it. So amazing. I remember that day that you told me, I think you sent me a text or something and said, I'm going to do it. It's going live. And I actually pulled my car over. I just dropped my kids over.

I like pulled my car over. I was like, oh my God, all the energy right now. Like, let's just, I'm on the other side of the country, but let's just focus this up. You were amazing. Yeah. Do you know that night? I didn't know what was happening this day, but that night was like a super moon. Did you know this?

It was like a full moon, but it was like a super moon that only happens like once every a hundred years or something. And so I pressed, I was in this room when I submitted it and I was like, okay, take a deep breath. It's done. I like it's up on my blog. And I just sent one tweet with like the headline and that's all I did. I didn't share it anywhere else. And then I remember opening this sliding door here and looking out and seeing the biggest moon I'd ever seen in my life staring at me. I was just in awe of this moment. And I looked on Twitter and it was like, one of the brightest super moons is happening right now. And I was like, this is so weird how it's happening.

But anyway, sorry. Yeah, you were incredible for supporting me. I mean, I asked Lennon to really tell me everything about how to put this out there in an authentic way that would not upset people, but also people could receive it and understand it. And you were like, I don't think I could have done it without you. So I appreciate that. That's amazing. So brave. So brave. And helped so many people.

Yeah. Still does. Yeah. so brave and helped so many people yeah it still does yeah um i don't know about that vulnerability hangover that bernie brown says that that that we're always going to feel that when we've revealed something i mean i don't know but i figured out that i really really believe that we can either be shiny and admired or we can be real and loved but that we have to choose. Really? Oh, my God. Shiny and admired are real and loved. Yeah. And I, all the time, I mean,

I keep choosing real and loved over and over again. And you can get hurt there. I mean, the funny thing is about vulnerability is like the thing now. Everybody be vulnerable. This is vulnerability, vulnerability. And so people think, okay, I'll do that. That's the answer. So I'll do that. That's the answer.

So I'll do that and then everything will be awesome, right? But no. I mean if you're vulnerable, you will get hurt. It's scary. It's hard. I mean for every six people who like what you've said and who are helped by it, there's going to be four who hate what you've said and think you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I mean when you're going to be vulnerable, you have to know that there will be, it will not all be pink and fuzzy. Like there will be pain there. But I really, really think that the pain that comes from being real and loved is not the same as the pain that

comes from hiding. Cause you're going to have pain either way. It's pain here or pain here, right? But this kind of pain is just badass pain. You know, it's like I can take that and I can take more and I can keep its freedom. Right. Because it's like this, there's love with it. It's freedom. You're just like, there's no shame and, and it's ouch, but you recover faster and you feel, um, you feel free and you feel real. Um, and people really know who you are. So if they don't like you, screw them. Like, you know, I mean, maybe they're not the right match for you, but at least you're showing yourself.

Over here, it's just like this withering, you know, it's just like this slow death of like, I've been put on this earth and I'm never going to be who I am. So I don't know. With the vulnerability hangover, I would say just keep having it. Just keep choosing it and keep, and when it comes, when the pain comes after you've shared yourself, don't assume that that means you've done something wrong. It's just the pain that comes. It's the right, it's the process. And it gets better, right? You feel it and you hide in your covers and you like eat your ice cream and it's like terrible for a little while and then you're fine again.

It's interesting. The more I dive into the vulnerability, at least of that experience, it doesn't own me or control me anymore. It's not scary anymore. I can share it like talking about what I ate for dinner last night essentially and it's not this scary thing that's like, oh, it's consuming me. It's controlling me, every thought of mine. So I definitely, it's like every time we get those scary demons out from the dark of inside

ourselves, we get them out into the light and they're just like these little, you're like, oh my God, I spent my whole life being terrified of that thing and I've gotten out. And it's like the second they get out into the light and people start saying me too, you're like, oh, dumb right yeah controlled me for so long and it was just like a little gremlin and everyone's experiencing it a lot of people experiencing it yeah oh my god interesting uh i got a few questions left for you we've been going for a while but i uh i feel like i could talk for hours with you. What should we really know about this book? Who's it going to be speaking to the most?

And what's the biggest lesson that you think people are going to take away from this? Well, it's not an easy book. It's beautifully written, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. It's not an easy book to read. It's raw and, um, much more honest than people usually are about their marriages. Um, what I think it's about really, because I mean, there's a reason I didn't call it love warriors. Like I don't really see it as a marriage story. Actually, I see it as like what happens to someone when really for real,

the shit hits the fan and you're just torn down to the bottom and you have a choice of just withering away or just rebuilding again. And that's why I call it love warrior. Cause I really think that if our marriage wouldn't have come back together, it would have been written anyway. Right. It just, it would have had a different ending,

but it still would have been the warrior's journey. Um, I think what it ends up being about is how our ideas, our culture's ideas, what our culture teaches us about masculinity and femininity, make it close to impossible for actual males and actual females to love each other. So true. I mean, I think that's what it comes down to. And I think in order for a real man and a real woman to actually really love each other, the woman and man that you're seeing in front of you, what it requires is an incredible unlearning and unlearning of everything that the culture has tried to teach you about what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman. That's what it was for us. It was a peeling away, just this boot camp of realizing how much we'd been poisoned by our culture until we were stripped down to who we actually were.

And we were like, oh, my God, like I'm finally actually seeing you. I'm not seeing this idea of what I think a man is supposed to be. And I'm not being anymore this idea of what I think a woman is supposed to be. This is actually me and actually you. It's going back to the freaking poem in the beginning of the Bible. It's the Garden of Eden. It's like, finally I am naked and unashamed in front of you. That's what it's about. I love it. Thank you. I love it. I'm excited. Well, it's already out. Well, it's going it's about. I love it. Thank you. I love it.

I'm excited. Well, it's already out. It's going to be out. Depending on when this comes out, you can preorder it right now, yes. And I'll have it all linked up here at the end of this, but it's called Love Warrior. So make sure to pick this up. It's an exciting book. So I'm glad you're writing it, and I know my people are going to love it.

A few questions left for you. Yes. This is something that I ask a lot of people at the end of my interviews. And before I get to that question, let's ask you another question. What are you most grateful for in your life recently? I'm so grateful for my sobriety. I'm so grateful for my sobriety. I feel like sobriety to me is, I mean, for me, it wouldn't even make sense to say to

any people because I don't get any, I don't get love for my people without my sobriety. So I just, I can't believe the way I started this life that I ended up in a place where I can deal with what comes to me. Like in real, like I can deal with the reality of the world and love and pain with no easy buttons. That's what I'm most grateful for. That's cool. It's the end of your life.

Many, many years from now, you've had an incredibly full life. You've achieved every dream you've ever imagined. It's happened, which I'm sure will happen. You've got everyone there. You're peaceful.

And you're just about to pass out for the last time and it's the last time. And for whatever reason all your books, all your blog posts, everything you've ever created has been erased.

For whatever reason. Okay. And someone in the family says we've got a piece of paper and a pen, and we know you love to write, so you get to write three final truths, three things you know to be true about everything you've learned in this life

that you want us to remember you by and us to use as lessons. So what would those three truths be? Oh, Lord have mercy. First of all, this is a very sad scenario. I didn't recover from that. Hypothetical. All right.

So we have three family mantras that we say over and over again that we've been saying since my kids were teeny. Um, and they're all over our house. And so they're ingrained in them. And so I think that it truly, if my family were around me, what I would say to them is what I've always said to them, which is we can do hard things. We belong to each other. And love wins.

Little Rob Bell in there. All right. We had that sign like long before love wins came out. Wow, crazy. It was just so weird because we're just always so, I love that man. Unbelievable. Um,

but yeah, I mean, those are every time, you know, when the marriage implosion might, what we'd say over, we can do it. We can do hard things.

Like we can do hard things and we belong to each other. The mother Teresa, um, quote that is, um, if we have no peace, it's because we've forgotten that we belong to each other. And I mean, most of my work with Together Rising, which are a nonprofit, is just all about remembering that we're one human family. And just, you know, if we're going

to find peace, it's going to be by remembering that we belong to each other. I love that. And Love Wins is just, you know what? There's always two choices in front of you and they're always love and fear. Yeah. Always. And, you know, we can choose fear as much as we want. And I do all the time. But we know that it won't get us anywhere.

Yeah. We know that the love choice is usually the hard choice, you know, and it's the one that always pays off. So those scenarios, as a mom, those are the three things that over and over again try to teach my kids. Awesome. If you were given, I would give you a lump sum of money that was essentially an unlimited amount of money to solve one problem in the world. And you could use it only for that one thing. And when you spent it, it would solve the problem of this thing in the world.

What would you want to solve? Well, at this moment in time, it would be the refugee crisis. I mean, that's what we kind of tried to do with our little, we did a compassion collective at Christmas time with Liz Gilbert and Rob Bell and Cheryl Strayed and Brene Brown. My God, I just, what's going on right now with the displaced people fleeing from terror and having no homes for their children and the terrified countries who are scared to let them in. And I know that's complicated. But through that effort and through a lot of what Amy does with Together Rising, we've learned more than I could ever unknow. It becomes pretty much all we think about. The Compassion Collective effort continues.

all we think about. The Compassion Collective effort continues. We're working with a group called Help Refugees, who is all over, who's a UK-based organization, and they're amazing. They're in all of the camps just trying to feed and clothe and save these babies. So, you know, that would be it right now. Right. Okay. Awesome. And your life is extremely public. You write everything about everything. What's something that you haven't written about that people don't know about you that you're really proud of? Oh my gosh, that's weird. Well, okay. So I have this thing that I'm not going to, so we have this thing at Together Rising where we say we always want to be better than people think we are. Because I feel like so many organizations are like not as good as people think they

are. You know, like they have these like awesome things, they're telling people about themselves, especially nonprofits or, you know, whatever. But like then when you dig deeper, so i want to be the opposite of that i want to be like if the more people peeled back the more they'd be like oh my god and they do that and they do that so we're always doing like the things that the together rising does behind the scenes the things that no one will know i i would because i'm like an incredibly prideful person i would just love for someone to accidentally discover it all you you know? And, but, um, I don't know. I mean, my people work their butts off every day to keep,

um, people's lights on and to, to, to help people adopt kids and to, um, God, it just never ends. And so I'm fiercely, fiercely proud of the work that Together Rising does every day. And not just, not the big things like the refugees and love flash mobs and all of that. I'm fiercely, fiercely proud of the work that Together Rising does every day. Not just, not the big things, like the refugees and the love flash mobs and all of that. I'm talking about the little stuff, like every single day that the emails we get from people who have needs and trust us to meet them. And every day that stuff happens. That's cool. Magic. I love it.

Cool. One final question before I ask it. Final question before I ask it. I want to acknowledge you, Glennon, for your incredible gift and your love and the choice that you make every day to tell the truth, to be honest about everything, and to choose love. I think it's incredible that you're doing the work, that you continue to go around the country and the world and show up for people that want to listen and that want to show up courageously in their lives.

And I think it's incredible that you're a symbol for so many people to see what's possible, not what's perfect, but what's possible. And so I really want to acknowledge you for the incredible gift that you are. And I appreciate you. Oh my gosh, that was beautiful. Nobody ever does that. They're so good. You're so good at seeing people. Thank you. You're welcome. My final question, before I ask it, where should we connect with you online? Where do you like to hang out the most? Yeah, so I'm like an old soccer mom, so I'm on Facebook. My son's like, Mom, only old people are on Facebook.

And I said, No, I love Facebook. And he goes, Exactly. Like, Oh, wait, I'm not that young anymore. Yeah. So I'm at Glennon Doyle Melton on Facebook. And I love Instagram, too. Yeah, I love your Instagram. And then I'm on Twitter, but I suck at Twitter.

So all I do is accidentally retweet people. I don't know. I accidentally tweeted a deodorant company yesterday. So I'm not amazing at Twitter. So maybe Instagram and Facebook. Instagram is good. Yeah. I like your Instagram. Thank you. Cool. And also your site, momastery.com. Yes, momastery.com. And get the book, Love Warrior. We'll have it all linked up here in a second on the show notes.

The final question is, what's your definition of greatness? I love people. I think people are great who whether they're doing big shiny things that are visible or like the hard work of the world like relationships and parenting and who are just

over and over again relentlessly choosing love whether anybody knows about it or not that's greatness to me. I love it. Glennon, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate you. The best.

You're the best. Appreciate it. Thank you, Lewis. There you have it. Love Warriors. I hope you enjoyed this one. And if you did, make sure to share it with your friends and leave a comment and let me know what you thought on the YouTube channel, on the show notes, or just at Lewis Howes on Twitter.

And hit up Glennon as well. All of her social media and all of her book information is at lewishowes.com slash 376. Again, share this with your friends. If you enjoyed it and you want others to get value from what you're learning, then spread the message. That's the best way to gain is to give. So make sure to continue to give and spread the message of greatness for all of your friends and family so they can gain on this wisdom and information as well. I love you guys so very much. It means the world to me that you show up here every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday when we release new episodes.

I'm all about researching and discovering how we can become better human beings, how we can optimize all the tools and gifts that were given to us and make them even better so we can live fully, love deeply, and have an amazing, inspiring life. So thank you guys so much for being here. I love you very much. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Outro Music