The School of Greatness - 379 Master Negotiation in Business and Life with Former FBI Negotiator Chris Voss

Episode Date: September 12, 2016

“What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said.” - Chris Voss If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/379

This is episode number 379 with Chris Voss. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to a special edition of the School of Greatness podcast.

Pumped for our guest today. His name is Chris Boss and he is the founder of the Black Swan Group. He uses his many years of experience in international crisis and high-stakes negotiations to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world. He was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council's hostage working group. He was also a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force for 14 years. And Chris currently teaches business negotiation in the MBA program at USC and Georgetown. This was fascinating for me. We did a mock high-stakes negotiation, a ransom, kidnapping,

and Chris put me through it for a couple of minutes. You get to see how I show up in a negotiation in a high-stakes moment. Then we walk through what I did well, what I didn't do so well, and how you can improve your negotiations in business, but also any area of your life. There are certain words and things to say at certain times, and there are certain things to leave out. Chris covers so much of this. We talk about why you don't have to be aggressive to win an argument. Also, the keys to any negotiation and being successful and getting what you want.

Also, the keys to any negotiation and being successful and getting what you want. How women learn negotiating differently from men. The difference between empathy and sympathy in terms of negotiating and so much more. This applies to so many areas of our lives, guys. Chris has a new book out called Never Split the Difference, which is powerful and insightful. But he gives so much in this interview as well. Make sure to share this with your friends. lewishouse.com slash 379. Check out the full video interview over on YouTube, YouTube slash Lewis House.

Subscribe over there. We're at over 76,000 subscribers. It's been blowing me away, the amount of traction that the YouTube videos are getting. So share these with your friends. It's all about negotiating and getting what you want, but also making sure that the YouTube videos are getting. So share these with your friends. It's all about negotiating and getting what you want, but also making sure that the other person feels good about it as well. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, Chris Voss. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest.

His name is Chris Voss. Thanks for coming on, Chris. My pleasure. You got a new book out that is called Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as if your life depends on it. So make sure you guys check this book out. Really powerful. And Chris, you were the lead international

kidnapping negotiator for the FBI for how many years? Well, officially the lead for four years probably. In reality about lead for four years, probably. In reality, about seven. Seven years. Okay. And you worked on, I think I read, 150 kidnapping or high-level negotiation cases, right?

Yeah, total cases across the board, yeah. About 150 ballpark. And these range from kidnappings or from bank robberies or from what are all the range of? Yeah, you know, mostly kidnappings. And one of the crazy things about the job was bank robbers are real rare. Bank robbers with hostages, all that happens in movies all the time. Happens in the United States and the whole country about once every 20 years. Okay.

And one of them is a bank robber with hostages. That's like the first story in the book. So it's rare to have gotten, you know, it sounds stupid to say I was lucky. Hey, I was lucky. I was in the backyard with hostages. How dumb is that? But yeah, I caught one of those and it was great. So my experience is a little broader than most hostages and co-shares. And you were a police officer in Kansas City before then, right? K-C-M-O-P-D. There you go. Kansas City before then, right? KCMOPD.

There you go. Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. I lived in St. Louis, Missouri for seven years. So were you on the Kansas side or the – KCMO, Missouri. Gotcha. There you go. And then after that, you went right into the FBI or you were –

I did. No, I went from the KCPD direct into the FBI. Actually, there was like a 10-day period that I was not employed by either, and that was a weird period of time. Really? Ordinary civilian. There you go. Okay. And you were doing investigations while at Kansas City, or were you doing—

Street cop. Street cop. Rode in a car, rode in a uniform, beat cop in Kansas City. There you go. Okay. It was good. What made you want to get into becoming a negotiator in the FBI? Why did you think this would be fun for me or something you wanted to do?

Well, I was originally a SWAT guy. And before I got into law enforcement, I figured I'd be a SWAT guy. Like, I'm a medium-sized guy. Yeah. So I figured, well, I got to do martial arts. And so then in college, then I ripped my knee up really badly in college in martial arts. And that was what ended up being the turning point in negotiation because then I was on a SWAT team with the FBI when I was in Pittsburgh. And was on a SWAT team there and then I tried out for the Bureau's version of the SEALs, which is the hostage rescue team.

And when I tried out for the hostage rescue team, HRT, then I re-entered my knee again and then I realized there's only so many times doctors can put it back together. It's tough. Humpty dumpty how many times can the doctors put you back. So after they got the knee put back together the second time, I looked at hostage negotiation. I didn't know what negotiators did. You know, it sounded both cool and easy. Right.

You know, and I thought, ah, I could talk to terrorists. I remember literally thinking, yeah, I'll talk to terrorists. I'll do that. Sure. Okay. So then, but I, and then that actually was a big turning point, getting onto the team in the New York City office. Because originally the woman who ran the team just tried to shoo me away. Because I had no credentials.

I just figured I could do it. I'm from sort of a can-do, pitch-in kind of world. I grew up in a small town in Iowa. And it's like, hey, figure it out, do it, get it done. Move on to the next thing. Where in Iowa? Waverly? Waverly.

I've been to Waverly. That's a mecca of Iowa culture probably. I'm from Mount Pleasant, Iowa, southeast corner of the state. It is about 35 miles south of the future birthplace of James T. Kirk. Just for all you Star Trek fans. There you go. What was the first negotiation process like for you at the FBI? What was it? How long have you been at the FBI for? And what was the outcome?

Yeah, the first real deal was a bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn. Your first deal was a bank robbery? My first FBI gig, if you will. Wow. And this happens once every two decades? Bank robberies with hostages are rare, rare events. Okay, where was the bank? It was in Brooklyn at 7th and Carroll.

It was Chase Manhattan Bank. Uh-huh. And there we were. Dun, dun, dun. No, but I was actually scheduled to do a terrorism-related interview that morning. And I was not quite a year out of negotiation training. And a partner of mine, Charlie Baldwin, came in and says, Bank ride with hostages in Brooklyn.

Let's go. Wow. And you were in Manhattan at this time. Yeah, I was in Manhattan. Yeah. So Charlie and I, and we were both nursing bad knees at the time. He actually had a bad left knee. I had a bad right knee.

So you got your wheelchair, your crutches. Just about, yeah. Hobbling around. Hobbling around. Hobbling around. And so we pull up to the bank robbery, and we're too close to the crisis site. And we didn't realize we're like right on top of where the bank is, where the bad guys were. So two guys with bad knees bail out of the car and low crawl basically through the inner perimeter to where the negotiation team was being set up. And that was my first gig. Okay.

And now is the team in a van like it is in the movies where you have a van and you've got the radios? If you can't set up someplace, then you get a van. Gotcha. And NYPD had a van, but we didn't need it. We set up in a bank across the street, took over. It was Chemical Bank at the time, and just took over the bank and set up the negotiation room right across the street.

Started rock and roll. Took us two hours from the moment the bank alone went out to the first contact was two hours. Two hours. Is that quick or is that? You know, that's probably standard. Okay. Because it takes everybody a while to get there.

Two hours. So they had to wait for two hours until they got any communication. Well, that's what we thought. But the bad guys inside were really tricky. And that was one of the first things that I began to learn lessons about business negotiation because the organizer inside was one shrewd guy. And it's a cliche in a business world that if you're sitting at the table with some guy who wants to make them seem powerless, that's an influential guy. A guy who always said, look, I don't have control over what's going on here.

I got a CEO. I got all these people. Anybody that points to negotiators away from the table, the harder they work to make themselves seem powerless, the more influential they are because they don't want you to corner them at the table. Because they don't have the decision. They can't make the decision. Well, they can. They don't want you to know it. Yeah, right.

They're hiding it. They're acting like they can't make it. Right, right, right. And this guy in that bank, he just kept saying, you know, these other guys that I'm here with, they're so dangerous. I don't know what they're going to do. And he was extremely calm. And at first we just thought we were dealing with an inadequate personality, somebody who just had no power. But we found out after the fact that he was one of the

most controlling guys. And the guys he took to that bank robbery, they didn't even know they were going to rob the bank. They thought they were going to burglarize a cash machine. Wow. He was manipulating everybody. So my first solid dose with somebody like that was like one of the best business lessons I ever learned. Wow. What happened?

How long did the process go for? 12 hours. A little over 12 hours in total. How many hostages? There were three hostages inside, two women and a man. They had guns. They had everything, I'm assuming. Bad guys rolled in.

This guy thought everything through in advance and he rolled in with a gun that looked like a.357. It was actually not because he wanted everybody to think he had a.357. So the first thing he does when he rolls in the bank is he takes the two female tellers hostage.

He hits one of them in the head with the.357. He sticks the barrel in the other one's mouth and pulls the trigger female tellers hostage. He hits one of them in the head with the.357. He sticks the barrel in the other one's mouth and pulls the trigger. Oh, my gosh. And she thinks. That's terrifying. Yeah. It's frightened out of her mind. She thinks it was just an empty chamber, which is what he wanted her to think.

And when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, he said, now open the vault. And they wasted no time getting that vault open. But by then, the police had shown up. We'd surrounded the bank. So the vault was open. They got cash and bags or whatever. They were getting ready to get out when we surrounded them. Surrounded them.

So how did they get out? Well, we had them trapped inside. And so we went through a really long negotiation. I mean, this guy's thought everything through. So you're on the phone with him. You get a hold of him. He gets a hold of you. How does that work?

You call the bank. The first thing we do is we try to isolate the phone lines. Right. So we just got in on a – we connected our equipment to a phone and just called in on the bank phone. And this was – and that ended up being the way we communicated the entire time. He picked it up the first time? Yeah, well, because he's smart. First of all, he wants to figure out what we're doing.

He wants to get away, and he also realizes that if he's talking to us, there's a pretty good chance we're not coming in. If he's talking to us and also if he realizes he's got to manage the risk level, he's got to talk to us in really measured tones. And so he knows as long as he's talking to us and sounding reasonable, we're probably not going to break down the doors. But if they're sounding crazy, then you're going to come in. Then we're going to come in.

So he sounded reasonable. He was, like, what was the conversation like? Well, he started off right off the bat by telling – I was the second negotiator. The first thing he'd done was he had already actually – we didn't know he'd called the precinct before we got there. He called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender, which also then that's – on his perspective, he thinks that that means we're going to drop our guard. And it's very much like a really shrewd negotiator says, look, I want to make a deal. And if you get a negotiator who says, let's do a win-win deal.

The sooner win-win comes out of somebody's mouth across the table, to me that's an automatic mark of somebody's trying to rip me off. Oh, interesting. Because he's trying to get me to relax, he or she. Sure, sure. If I look at you and say to relax, he or she. Sure, sure. You know, if I look at you and say, hey, man, let's do a win-win deal here. You need to be putting your hands over your wallet. Really?

Because I'm going after it. That's funny because I'm always thinking about, you know, I'm trying to come from a place of win-win in all my relationships and business deals right now in my life. Right. But I'm honestly not trying to like screw someone out of a, you know, by saying that I'm really like, let's make sure that you win, I win this business deal or, you know, whatever's happening. Right. But it's different maybe when there's someone who's stealing something.

Well, it's context too. But, and then if the first thing that you say is like, if you say to me, look, I want to make sure that this is good for you and I want it to be good for me at the same time. Right. You know, you're, you're expressing a win-win. But if I sit down and I was saying like, look, Lewis, you know, let's do a one-win here. I'm telling you I don't want to pay you anything. The sooner it comes out of my mouth.

Oh, interesting. So you should negotiate first before saying that is what you're saying. Well, you start thinking about stuff other than money. You know, what I'm really telling you is I don't want to give you any money. Gotcha. In that context. Right. Gotcha.

Right. But as soon as somebody starts trying to give you a deal, it's a great move to get the other side to relax. Right, right, right. Okay. So what happened next? Well, he called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender. next? Well, he called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender.

So what the deal he wanted to do was he said, put a van out front. We'll all get in the van and we'll drive to the precinct. Right. That's absurd. You'll drive to the precinct. Right. But that's an escape plan. Right.

But because it came out, half that information came out, when we actually got to the bank at the beginning, all the top brass that showed up, they figured they're half paying attention. They figured it should be 20 minutes and it's over because that was the information when we first got there that they wanted to surrender.

And as stupid as that sounds, a year earlier, a hijacked plane had come into JFK. And in that hijacking, the hijacker said he wanted to surrender as soon as the plane touched down. And that was, in fact, what happened. So there was some precedent in New York for somebody wanting to surrender right away. So if you're paying attention, you're thinking, oh, this is the same as this stupid hijacker a year ago. Well, it wasn't. The hijacker that came in a year earlier, he wanted to get into the U.S.

to get out of his country. And he figured jail in the U.S. was better than life in his country. And he just needed a free ride to the U.S. That's why he hijacked a plane. That's funny. He didn't know he was going to spend life in jail. Wow. But he, and so there was some precedent for it. So the bosses show up, and they're just hanging out outside, shaking hands. They're not paying attention to what's going on. You know, pretty soon they wonder what's taking the negotiators so long.

They're looking at their watches. They're like, we've been here an hour. You know, these guys said they want to surrender an hour ago. Why is it he's out? Well, they were stalling, and they were trying to escape. And we also found out the guy on the inside was burning money in the basement. The bank was under construction. At the bank, wow. And what he was doing was he stashed a couple hundred thousand dollars inside the construction

and then he burned a pile of money in the bank. And so he figured, I don't have to get away with the money, I just got to get away. If I hide enough of the money in the walls, I'll come back and get it later. Wow. So he was a cagey guy. He was a really cagey guy. Smart. At 8.30 that night, right at 12 hours later,

he walked out of the front of the bank and we put those golden handcuffs on him. He couldn't get out, huh? No, we hadn't. But even up to the last minute, I saw, because I was inside, I saw bank and we put those golden handcuffs on. You couldn't get out, huh? No, we hadn't. We hadn't. But even up to the last minute, I saw, because I was inside, I saw the video. He's looking around. He came out real slow and he was looking left and right the whole time.

I mean, right up to the moment that our SWAT guys actually put the hands on him. He was looking for any opportunity to run. Way to escape. Yeah. He never lost his voiceise the whole time. Wow. Interesting. So how did you guys finally get him to surrender? Well, when I got on the phone with him, I was part of a change of strategy.

And I was going to be- Something wasn't working for a while. Right. Well, we'd slowed it down, and I was going to be the really tough, nice guy. Right. Well, we'd slowed it down, and I was going to be the really tough, nice guy. My job to get on the phone was to be the immovable, nice guy. And the nicer you are, the more immovable you could be. Forgive me for picking on Mr. Donald Trump right now. But the style of being, you can be very assertive without being aggressive.

And his style is he wants to yell at people. He wants to intimidate his way in. You don't have to give up that much assertion. You don't want to be that mean. You don't want to be that hard on people. For example, what do you mean? Like how? Well, you know, we're in L.A.

There's a great guy here in town. His name is Tom Girardi. Voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the Bar Association. He gets a vote of top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page, they say, again. Wow. So he comes in and he's a guest of my class at USC. And I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's going to be an attack dog.

Because I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class and he says, you know, the key to negotiation is being nice and gentle. Now what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard. And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent. And that's why he's so successful and he's ridiculously nice about it. Like he smiles and he chats with people and he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. You get into an argument with him and immediately he'll bend it where he's talking with you about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now

or in the future which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does like if you're barricading a bank I'm going to say my first goal is to get you out of there alive well I picked a point in the future that we can collaborate on Tom Girardi does this instinctively

and he's just super nice about it I mean like you either you're going to that we can collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively. And he's just super nice about it. I mean, like, either you're going to cooperate with him because you like him so much, he's never going to let up on you, or more than likely you're going to say something accidentally. And he gets people saying stuff accidentally. And then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally. He lets you say so many things accidentally.

What do you mean accidentally? Well, like, you know, he loves to get people on uncovered emails that they never should have written. Like, if you send Tom an email saying, Tom, let's go have lunch together, he will not email you back saying, okay. Because he doesn't put anything in emails because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit. Somebody who's done something wrong is going to put it in an email. And Tom knows if he's nice to the other side long enough, he's going to figure out where those emails are. And that's what people do all the time.

Lawsuits are uncovered. People get into trouble with what they put in emails. Wow. When they say, hey, they sent an email to somebody else. They say, hey, you know, we shouldn't be doing this. And a person sends an email back saying like, yeah, it's okay. We're still going to find out. Oh, my gosh. In today's day and age, people put stuff in emails.

And so Tom knows he's just relentlessly nice. Relentless. And the most charming guy you ever met in your life. Wow. So you don't have to be aggressive. To get what you want. To get what you want. Interesting.

Okay, I've got a bunch of questions for you that I want to ask about this, but I want to do a role play first if you're cool with it. I'd love to do a role play. You say you do this in your class. Do I have to wear a special outfit? No. We're going to wear uniforms. We're going to wear football uniforms. Exactly, yes.

I'll be a referee. Okay, perfect. And you'll be a wide receiver. We can going to wear football uniforms. I'll be a referee. Okay, perfect. And you'll be a wide receiver. We can do that. I'll call you for a legal procedure. Perfect. Offsides. There you go.

But you do this in your class, right? Because you teach at USC. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do the role play. Business school. And what do the role play usually consist of? All right. So I say, all right, I'm going to ask you to volunteer to role play with me in front of the class.

Okay. I say, all right, I'm going to ask you to volunteer to role play with me in front of the class. Okay. And I want you to know, just in case you're worried about role playing with a hostage negotiator in front of everybody, just ease your mind, just so you won't worry. I promise you the experience is going to be horrible. Perfect. And you'll probably get more out of it than anybody else in the classroom.

Okay. All right, so here's a role play. You volunteer. You agree. I'm a bank robber. You're a hostage negotiator. I'm trapped at a bank. Yes.

You and your colleagues have got me surrounded. It's your job to talk me out of it. So it's like your first case. Right. Okay. There's only four restrictions. You can't give me transportation. You can't give me weapons. You can't

give me drugs or alcohol. And there's no exchange of hostages. You can't offer to come in if I offer to let everybody go. You can't offer to send my mom in if I let everybody go. Nobody comes in. I can't get anyone to come out. People only come out. Nobody comes in. No exchange for.

No. You know, like Eddie Murphy did a movie where he walked into the bank. Let me talk to you. You can't do that. You can't walk into the bank. So no one can come in. No one comes in. Only people can come out.

Only people come out. So those are your only four restrictions. Can something else come in? Sure. If you don't break any of those other restrictions. No alcohol, drugs. No alcohol, no weapons, no drugs, no transportation, no hostage exchange. We'll do the negotiation over the phone.

All right. When you're ready, say, ring, ring, I'll pick up. Ring, ring. I need a call in 60 seconds or she dies. Let me see what I can do on that. Okay. You've got 57 seconds to do something. Well, Chris, we don't have cars that quickly.

Tell me to kill her right now. You've got 55 seconds, as a matter of fact. Or are you telling me you're going to give me a car? Let me see what I can do on that and get back to you. I heard you say that before. You've got 50, you've got 45 seconds. Car, yes or no? I need to make sure she's still alive before I can get you a car.

She's alive. I need proof. 43 seconds. I need to hear her she's still alive before I can get you a car. She's alive. I need proof. 43 seconds. I need to hear her on the phone. Nope. No, absolutely not. 40 seconds. I want to help you get exactly what you need. Give me the car then. Fine. You're telling me you didn't give me a car? I'm going to do my best to get it for you as quickly as I can. I've heard that before. I heard do my

best. Are you telling me this is adding yes to a car? 35 seconds. I'm going to do my best to get you a car. That sounds like a no. I need a little more time than 30 seconds because we can't get the car that quickly. You're telling me you can't give me a car then. You have just said I'm going to do my best to get you a car. That sounds like a no. I need a little more time than 30 seconds because we can't get the car that quickly. You're telling me you can't give me a car then? You have just said you are going to give me a car. I'm going to get you a car. Just give me a little bit more time. Yes on the car. I'll get you a car.

Yes on the car. Okay. You got 25 seconds because there are cars everywhere. If you can give me one, you give me one. It's right out front right now. Give us a few more minutes and we'll get you a car as quickly as we can. You got 25 seconds. You're going to have to give me a little bit of help here. I don't have to give you anything.

You've got 20 seconds. We're going to do our best to get you a car. You just said you were going to give me a car. Now you're back at it. As quickly as we can. You're saying yes on the car. Yes on the car. 15 seconds, that killer.

Okay. Well, we just need to make sure we have a few more minutes to get the car for you. Yes. Okay. 10 seconds. Okay. Our to get the car for you. Okay. 10 seconds. Okay. Our men are on it right now. Okay.

We'll stop there. Okay. All right. So literally everything that you did was wrong. No, no. Your strategy is on the money. Okay. See, and I would only change how you tried to implement the strategy.

Okay. But you're trying to feel me out a little bit. Uh-huh. You've got a great tone of voice. Uh-huh. Like I was attacking you like crazy. Yes. I'm hitting you hard.

Yeah. And I actually used one. I used a Donald Trump voice, basically. Uh-huh. Now, you didn't respond. You didn't lose your stuff at all. You stayed very calm the whole time. Okay. That's the key.

That's not easy to do. No, because I was feeling it inside. I was like, oh, man. That's very impressive that your voice didn't come up one iota in that negotiation. And with that particular voice as a counterpart, it's not at least a bit unusual where we start talking over each other. Right. You didn't talk over me once. Right. Is that a key? Yeah didn't talk over me once. Right.

Is that a key? Yeah. Not talk over me. It's critical. Not for an interrupter. Secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now, I'm coming at you as a very control-oriented negotiator. Right.

As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage. Because then you feel like you're in control. Right. You don't have to try to gain it anymore. Right, right. I'm more than likely going to start dropping my, if I'm a control freak guy, if I want to talk all the time, I'm a control freak guy. Control freak negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you want to get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control.

Right. So you did a real nice job with that. Now, the only thing, another thing that we teach is, see, you're not going to give me your car. Right. And you're trying to make it sound like you were going to. Yeah. Now, I teach how to say no. Uh-huh.

Now, I teach how to say no. And then you want to feel other ways of saying, because the real answer to that, just like at the very beginning of my book, you're supposed to look at me and say, how am I supposed to do that? So, it points it back to a question. Right. A how question. An open-ended question.

Well, not just open-ended. How. Okay. How is the key to life. Yes is nothing without how. And you could also start talking about how without talking about yes. So just say, what I would say... You could say, how would I do that? Would I say, I'd love to get you what you need. How would I do that? Just how would I do that?

How would I do that? So give them the control to figure out the solution. Right, right, right. How am I supposed to get you the car in that time frame? Because that's what you're trying to express. There actually is a time problem here. Right. In 60 seconds, how am I supposed to get you a car? Right, right. That's different than we can get a car. We just need 60 more seconds.

Right. We need more time. Yeah, yeah. Right. Because now I think you're ducking me. Okay. But if you, instead you say like, how am I, you know, of course the cars are out here right away, but first of all, I gotta, I gotta tell everybody what we're going to do. I don't need anybody to get surprised.

Let's talk through the details of how this is going to get done. In the meantime, what got you here in the first place? How do you find yourself in this kind of a situation? How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of how questions. How am I supposed to promise to get you a car if I don't know that she's going to come out alive? You take what you want and make it the path to what I want. You know, how am I supposed to get you in here if it doesn't benefit me also?

Right. So as soon as in any negotiation what I want is now a means of getting what you want, then that changes the dynamic right away. So how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want, they're very controlling, alpha, and it's their way or no way? Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list. First of all, being in control is number one on their list, and that's emotionally satisfying.

Being in control is number one on their list, and that's emotionally satisfying. The second thing is the alpha type, which is we refer to that as the assertive. The one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from. And it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, you know what, my boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out. Or she heard me out. I can live with the direction we're going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion. And so the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respectably, that you respected them, and that you knew what they were coming from.

And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want. If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and demanding. Right, right, right, right. Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me. Right. I want you to know how important I am. So how do you meet that person? Just come to them with respect or with calm?

You could say, look, you're impressive. You're phenomenal. You thought it's all out. This is very. Yeah, I mean, clearly you know where you're're phenomenal. You thought it's all out. This is very. Yeah. I mean, clearly, you know where you're coming from. You know what you want. I'm lucky to be talking to you at all.

Right. I mean, if I were to sit down with Donald Trump, I would, in fact, be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him. I'd say, you're an American icon. Right. You know, you're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah, stroke in their ego is not a bad thing. It's a version

of empathy because that's how they see themselves. The emotional recognition, like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal. I just don't want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency. I'm saving my money. With emotional empathy, currency, intelligence. Right, right. My money is too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction. So, yeah.

I like that. I'm enormously tight with my dollars. So many people, especially men in business deals, I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want. And so somehow they'll lose money because they're not able to have empathy or they're not able to whatever. They're not able to drop their ego. Yeah.

A lot of money is left on the table over stuff like that or what they value themselves out. Like price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price. But if I can get you to value yourself in another way, put you on a magazine cover. Stroke the ego in some other way. It used to be you'd get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover. Stroke the ego in some other way. It used to be you get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted

to if you put him on a cover. Imagine the amount of time, and that used to be his deal. If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the cover. Then he would knock himself out for the people doing the articles on access,

answering questions. Imagine how valuable his time was. They got to cover it to the magazine anyway. They got to put somebody on it. Right. You know, now they're trading something that costs them nothing. Right. And he's giving them dynamic interviews.

And he's promoting them hard and he's sharing them with everyone. Yeah, exactly right. He's framing it everywhere. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah, so you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition. So what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field? And also, how do those translate into the business and relationship world, just in general, outside of— Well, let the other side go first. You know, most people have— so they're burning with their argument. Here's why you should make this deal. And they've got that memorized, and they're not going to listen to a word you say until they get it out. So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic.

Because they're rehearsing their speech in their head and they're lodging. And so you just can't get through to them. So you let them go first. Another guy, Ned Coletti, former GM of the Dodgers, friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator. He's lectured at my class at USC also. And Ned always likes to let the other side go first. You know, he did the Barry Bonds deal.

He's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, well, in a two-hour phone call, there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold. Where the person I'm talking to, based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used, he's got an instinct for it. He couldn't identify. He's just always saying there's 90 seconds of solid gold. And I'd say, what is that they used. He's got an instinct for it. He couldn't identify. He's just always saying, there's 90 seconds to sock gold. And I'd say, what is that? Right. And we talk it through.

He says, well, yeah, it's going to be a change in the tone of voice. It's going to be a different kind of adjective. So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what it's going to take to make the deal. What they want. Right.

Yeah, what they're burning for or how they characterize what they have. Or what they're not saying too, maybe. Exactly right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said, which is why I give it a little thought in advance. What are they going to say if they've got this? I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said, what's glaringly missing. And that's going to take – I'm going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me. Okay. Okay.

Who are the most difficult people to work with then? Would you say it's the alpha people or would you say it's the uncertain people or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with? You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match that has a tendency. It's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal. Like, I don't like liars. Or I don't like – the most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through, which is as bad as a liar, only their heart's not in the wrong place. They don't know what they want specifically. Or they don't know how they're going to get this done which is

again we go over and over again. I go over and over again. Yes is nothing without how. And the person who thinks yes is going to make a deal. Well yes is not going to make a deal because you got to have how. How are we going to put this together? And someone that doesn't think things through a lot of times,

they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises. And so when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them, they take it back to their company, and their company goes like, no, we're not doing this.

This is a stupid idea. We can't do this. And that happens a lot. I think in a private sector, I've heard from a number of companies that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company. The company says, no, that violates our terms and conditions. We can't deliver on that basis. So you're dealing with someone who just doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side. There are a lot of people like that. When you're making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to

consider the deal before saying, yes, let's do it? Here's the deal points. Here's what you want. Here's what I want. Okay. Should we sign it right away? Should we give it 24 hours? Should we take it to our team? Should it be a week? What's that kind of a standard, do you think? Unless you've got something in line ahead of time. The company name is the Black Swan Group because we believe there's black swans in every

negotiation, which is something you didn't know that as soon as you found out, it's going to change all the parameters. The deal. Gotcha. So you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns. Huh. And it's impossible to research all the unknowns. Plus, a lot of the unknowns, I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you. And I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes.

For example, what do you mean, something you'd want to ask? you to tell me about in 10 minutes. For example, what do you mean? Something you'd want to ask? I'm speaking for a long-time client, and they have another firm that I've been affiliated with doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could suddenly reach back through my network to find out what the competing-slash-partnership firm of mine is, what they're charging, or I can just flat out. Ask them.

Well, I need to get the information. A lot of information you got to get by not asking. You got to trigger it. You know, the phrase, ask good questions, it's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know or if there are other ways, hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions. And hostage negotiators get that information and make you feel good about giving it at the same time. So give me an example either in a hostage or a business deal what that kind of trigger could be.

Well, it's going to be some sort of a statement. I might say, look, I'm sure my competing company is charging twice as much as I am. Oh, and then they'll tell you the answer. They'll want to correct me. Oh, actually, no, it's the same or actually you're getting a better deal. Never underestimate the other side's desire to correct you. Wow. Because it makes people feel powerful and smart.

You're going to want to feel smarter than me. One of my clients is negotiating a deal for a commercial office building in South Carolina, and it's almost 100% occupancy. It's in a mixed-use historic area, so it means the building can't be knocked down, and nobody can build it because it's a historic area. And so the building is basically impossible to replace, and it's 100% occupancy. It makes no sense to sell the building. So they're genuinely thinking, why is the seller selling?

First of all, you can't ask why because why makes people defensive. If I look at you and I say, why did you wear a black shirt? Your instant thought is going to be like, do I got to defend the black shirt? Why? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you need to find out why, but you can't ask why because it makes people defensive. So what would you ask there?

Well, then again, you don't want to ask at all because if you're smart or you change your whys to whats, and it's more likely they'll respond if you say, you know, what's making the seller want to sell? So, you know, what is causing them to do that? Not why are they selling. But instead, what my student did was he said, well, it seems to me the seller is selling a cash cow because of a disbelief in the market fundamentals and the future of the building. Now, let me correct you.

This is why I'm doing it. Exactly. And the other side went like, no, no, no. They got a couple buildings that are underwater. Now, I can't imagine a real estate agent answering that question ever. I mean, this is highly confidential proprietary information. You know, my seller is desperate for money is what the answer was. But because it was a correction, and people love to correct,

they'll correct you without thinking it through. It's an involuntary response, a desire to sound smarter than you and to be right and correct you, which is a burning desire in most people because it makes me feel smart and more powerful. And I'll seize every opportunity to feel smarter and more powerful.

You're at the table. Gosh, it's like a chess. It's emotional chess. Emotional chess. I love this. Emotional chess. And how do women and men compare as negotiators, as counterparts, either against each other or woman-man, woman-woman, man-man?

Is there a difference? See, I think a powerful woman negotiator is a woman who's really good at negotiations. She's almost unstoppable. Wow. And I think that the reinforcement, the societal reinforcement, is constantly trying to pound men into being better negotiators and constantly trying to pound women away from it. And I think that the step from sympathy to empathy is a shorter step.

And women are socialized to be sympathetic. I think the step from sympathy to empathy is a shorter step. And women are socialized to be sympathetic. And I don't think that, you know, whether or not it's nature or nurture, I know there's a lot more pressure societally and culturally for women to be like that. And in my class, women pick my style of negotiation up faster than the men do. And the women go to my class, start cutting bigger and better deals faster than the men do. In business or in life or in just… In both.

Gotcha. Wow. So in my view, I think that… Like after they graduate, they go on to do… Well, in the class. Okay. You got to negotiate with skin in the game in my class. And almost all of my students are rising star business executives.

Mock negotiations, they're making more is what you're saying. No, in real life, man. You got to take my stuff and put it in real life while you're in my class. And you got to write about it. Wow. And I've got everything from a billion dollar Wall Street transaction. People in my class use the tools for. I get at USC,

get a lot of commercial real estate transactions. A lot of people buying commercial real estate that are working on MBAs. I've got a lot of those transactions. Got, you know, my favorite way to say no, which I got, you know, the how question before. Uh-huh. The favorite way to say no

is how am I supposed to do that? Just real calm. Deference. that? Just real calm deference. There's great power in deference. And that's what I did in kidnappings, bank robberies, everything. How am I supposed to do that? What if they say, I don't care, figure it out, or she's dead? Well, then you know that you've pushed them as far as you can, and that means you've got to pivot to something else.

And that's actually where you want to get to because the strategy of negotiation is find where you want to get to. Because the strategy of negotiation is find out you want to max every term if you can. And the only way to max that is to find out that I've hit you to the full limit without making you angry enough that you slam your hands down and walk away. Because even your reaction just now. Or you shoot someone. Or you shoot someone. Your reaction just now is like, look, you got to do it or things are going to go bad.

And it was one of my students here in town was negotiating for a luxury client to rent a house in Hollywood Hills. And, you know, $20,000 a month was the rental. They were trying to get the rental or they were trying to lease it? Trying to get it. Gotcha. The person said it's $? Trying to get it. Gotcha. The person said it's $20,000 a month. Right. And it's for a very – his client is extremely wealthy.

And you're negotiating a wealthy market. The other side always thinks you got all the money in the world. And so he just said, how am I supposed to do that? And they said, okay, well. And they shifted the terms. They cut the price. And they moved a bunch of other terms around. Then they negotiated for a while longer. And then he said, again, well, and they shifted the terms, they cut the price, and they moved a bunch of other terms around. Then they negotiated for a while longer.

And then he said, again, on the price, he says, how's my client supposed to pay that? And the realtor says, if your client wants the house, he's got to pay it. And you got a deal. When the other side says, if you want it, you have to do it, which will come usually after the second, third time that you've said, how am I supposed to do that? You knock it down a little more on a car, a real estate deal, whatever it is. Now you've maxed that term. Now you move on to something else, so you make the deal.

But you needed to know that you pushed them as far as you could without them storming out, without them saying, Chris Voss is not any fun to deal with. I would never do business with him again. How am I supposed to do that in a deferential way? They still feel in control. You're not saying, screw you, that's too much. Like, what are you, out of your mind?

Right. And if you don't make the deal at that point, then what they say after the fact, they say, you know, I didn't make a deal, but I'd deal with them again. You know, they're all right to deal with. Did they get the lease? How much did they get? Yeah, they got it. How much?

They knocked it down to less than $20,000, and then they got some softness on some other terms, and then they cut the deal for the house. There you go. I wish I was paying $20,000 a month for a house. That's a lot of money for a house. $20,000 a month. Wow. That's a rich student. Yeah. usa they get me people that are involved in a lot of lucrative deals yeah yeah so you're saying what is the

importance of empathy in a negotiation when i'm hearing you say this is extremely important and that's why you feel like a woman would be a better negotiator in general because they have more empathy in general or? Well, it's the shortest. Most people have confused sympathy with empathy. Okay. What's the difference? Empathy is I can see your upside.

It's just identifying how you feel. Sympathy is like, wow, I feel bad for you. Feeling sorry or bad for someone is sympathy. Sympathy. It is in fact, it doesn't help anybody. Like I don't care if you sorry or bad for someone is sympathy. Sympathy. It is, in fact, it doesn't help anybody. Like, I don't care if you feel bad for me. Right. I could care less.

So sympathy is not a good thing? Sympathy is a weakness. As a negotiator. As a negotiation. Empathy is a good thing? Empathy and tactical empathy. Because we've really taken a pass just empathy in general. Like, we've been doing this long enough that I know what I'm looking for before we sit down.

I know that I need to find out the stuff that are negative emotions for you because I need to get them out of the way of the deal. And I need to find out the stuff that are positive emotions for you because I want to reinforce that to make the deal. And I know that the negatives are going to be a bigger deal to you than the positives are. So can you give me an example of this in a business deal? Well, if I don't like doing business with Donald Trump at all, then if he's annoyed me to the point where I get enough satisfaction

keeping money out of his hands, I won't make that deal. Or if I'm in a business deal where the other side, and I've thought about this, like you annoy me so much. That I don't want you to get anything. That I'll take less money to keep you out. Right. So how would you eliminate something like that, that negative in the deal so that you could. Well, then say like if I think that you're negative towards me, I'm going to say,

look, I'm sure it seems like I'm greedy here. If I say to you, I'm sure I'm going to seem very greedy here, that sets me up to ask for a lot of money. Because there's actually a science that backs this up now. Identifying a negative diminishes it every time. So if I'm going to make a big grab for the money, you're going to think I'm greedy. And I need to get that out of the way because if I'm too greedy, you're going to get some satisfaction

by keeping me from the money, even if you don't get any. And so I'm going to say, look, I'm going to seem real greedy here. I'm going to seem like I'm very self-centered and that I'm greedy and that I'm not looking out for you at all. And I'll just let it sit.

And you'll take a lot more from me. A lot, a lot. You'll allow me to take more if I've said that. Up front, really? Because I've diminished that. Your thought is like I mean, I can never seem too greedy.

When I make that grab, you're going to say, well, he was honest with me. He told me he wanted a lot of money. He didn't try to say, hey, look, let's do a win-win deal. Now give me all the money. Because if I say I want to do a win-win deal with you, I'm like, hey, I'll be nice to you. I'll look out for you. And then you try to take 90 and give me 10. It's like, no, it's not a good deal.

Yeah. But when you say it up front, then you're more likely to get the deal. Yeah. And get more of whatever you want. Right you're more likely to get the deal. Yeah. And get more of whatever you want. Right. I'm going to seem very honest to you. You're going to like that I was honest with you. And you're going to say after the fact, like, look.

He was honest. I always knew where he was coming from. I didn't like the deal, but I did it anyways or whatever. Yeah. Huh. Okay. Yeah, that's crazy. That's just the stuff that we found out that works regularly.

We had to talk about another one we talk about in the book. There was a multimillion-dollar deal going down in Washington, D.C. The subcontractor was very unhappy with the general contractor. And the female negotiator, and they were getting ready to lose everything. And they sat down and they said, you know, I'm sure we seem like the big guy that doesn't care about you. I'm sure we seem like the big general contractor that's trying to take complete advantage of the sub and not appreciate how hard you're working for this and not care about your future at all.

And she turned that deal around. When she was done, she took an additional million in profit for herself and her company. And the other side liked them more. So not only did they increase the profit, but they had a better relationship. This is why being honest up front or empathetic or I can see how you might feel that we're going to do this. It's a tactical approach. There are negatives here. We're going to address the negatives.

Up front. And we're going to make them go away. Yeah, address them up front. Most people don't want to do it. I already did that. Do you know when I did that to you? I've already done it. Remember when we talked about doing the one-on-one role play? Yeah. I said it was going to be horrible. Oh, that's true.

You said it up front. Yeah. And I always do that every single time the same way. Because if you do the role play with me, no matter how it goes, you're going to feel like you were beaten up. Right. But at least you told me I was going to be.

Right. And you can't come out. If I say it's going to be horrible, you can't ever say, well, he sandbagged me. He caught me off guard. And then what I always do, then I diffuse the negative and then I pitch the positive. And most people pitch the positive and hope the negative will go away. They sandwich the negative. Positive, negative, positive. I don't like sandwich at all. Start pitched the positive. And most people pitch the positive and hope the negative will go away. They sandwich the negative. Positive, negative, positive.

I don't like sandwich at all. Start with the negative. Start with the negative. And I said, and you will learn more than anyone else. So how do you do that in a business deal where you start with, okay, I'm sure you think we're horrible or we're trying to get more than we should? Well, you know, walking to the table, you can make a really educated guess on what the other side is going to think of you. If you're a big business dealing with a small business, if you're David and Goliath,

you know that before you get to the table. Flip side around, if you're new to the industry and you're trying to work your way into the industry, how do you look to somebody who's been in the industry? You look like an intruder. You know, I'm sure I look like an intruder. I'm sure I look wet behind the ears. I'm sure I look wet behind the ears. I'm sure I look like I don't have any experience in this area.

Because if I'm new to the industry and I'm talking to somebody who's been in the industry for a while, what I want is money you've got. I want a piece of your pie. It's a nice big pie here, and I want to take a big bite out of it if I'm new to the industry. And it doesn't take a genius to talk it through and go like, yeah, somebody who's new to the industry is trying to hammer their way in. They got no respect for people who have already been there.

And I'll say that, you know, I'm sure I look like an intruder here. So how do you frame the positive afterwards then? You go, I look like an intruder, but... And then I'll say, and there's money to be made here that wasn't there otherwise. Because if I'm new to the industry, especially if I'm bringing a deal in, I'm bringing you found money. The worst thing I could do is say, hey, look, I got some found money for you. Let me bring this to you. Sure. You're going to be like, you ain't bringing me nothing. I'm fine.

I could pay my bills before you walked in the door. I didn't need you to pay my bills. But I want to make that point. So I got somewhere I'm going. I'm going to say, I'm sure I look like an intruder. I'm unappreciative. I'm what behind the ears. You've been here for a thousand years.

I don't know anything. So always lead with the negative or the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room. That's exactly right. It doesn't have to be negative. The elephant in the room, identify. That elephant always gets smaller. Every time you call the elephant in the room out.

Again, and there's a subtle difference too. I never deny it. There's a difference between me saying, I'm sure I seem like an intruder, which is good. And if I say to you, I don't want you to think I'm an intruder. That's a difference between me saying I'm sure I seem like an intruder, which is good, and if I say to you, I don't want you to think I'm an intruder, that's a denial. That's going to be what you're doing. I am an intruder. Yeah. In your mind. Yeah.

I'm coming into this new, I'm coming to this, yeah. Denial magnifies negatives. There's a subtle difference between denial and observation. And if I say, look, man, I don't want you to think I'm going to intrude on you. I don't want you to think I'm way behind the years and I don't know what I'm doing. Immediately, you're thinking that because I denied it. And that's why, and that subtle difference is night and day in negotiations. That subtle difference makes all of it.

I had, I'm doing, when I'm working on my book deal, I don't know if my agent will listen to this or not, but I use this with my agent one time because I'm a bad client if somebody's negotiating on my behalf because at some point in time, I'm going to jump in with no warning and not listen to you. This is how it's supposed to be done. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can only sit back for so long. And so, I'm getting ready. I'm jumping in the middle of this price negotiation with a potential writer.

Oh, with a writer. Okay. Before I came across Tal, Tal is a superstar. Yes. He is the best business book writer on the planet. He's great. And so, before I came across Tal, we're working with trying to get something going with another guy. And I jumped in in the middle of it with no warning without telling my agent.

So I did it in an email and then I constructed an email to my agent at the same time. Now, if somebody is supposed to be keeping their mouth shut in a negotiation, the name you might call them might be a loose cannon. Okay. Somebody pipes up when they're supposed to shut up. Sure. And they don't check with anybody else. Loose cannon. Okay. Somebody pipes up when they're supposed to shut up. Sure. And they don't check with anybody else, loose cannon. So I said, I crafted an email to my agent at the same time. And at first I wrote it wrong the first time.

I'll admit, I said, I don't want you to think I'm a loose cannon. And then I went back and edited it. And I said, I'm sure I seem like a loose cannon. So he couldn't deny it. Right. You weren't denying it. You were. But this is a predictable negative. Sure. I seem like a loose, and I said, I'm sure I seem like a loose cannon. So he couldn't deny it. Right. You weren't denying it. But this is a predictable negative. I'm sure I seem like a loose cannon.

Sent him the email. As soon as he read it, he sent me back, no, I don't. I always respect a bold move. So I called the negative out. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Just call it out. Identify the elephant in the room. Don't deny it.

If I had to say, no, there ain't no elephant in the room. Right, right. Yes, there is. Sure. And he has responded immediately. Were you part of negotiating with the publisher as well? Did you let him do the job? No.

You know, what you need an agent for is really understand terms and conditions. Yeah. And a great source of intel. And so when the deal came through, plus I don't try to get every last dollar, and I don't try to get every last percentage. You want it to be a win-win. Well, I want you to want to continue to do business with me. In the future, yes.

And if I cut your throat, you're not going to want to continue to do business with me. Or if they don't make out what they thought they wanted to, then. Right. Yeah. Right. So, yeah. In fact, even though I don't use the words. Win-win.

Yeah. Why not? Because, just because I, first of all, it's shorthand for whip win. Hmm. Or, so only two people really actually will throw that out in a negotiation. So only two people really actually will throw that out in a negotiation. Someone who needs to be a stronger negotiator. Or it's almost 1,000% now.

If somebody says win-win to me early on, I know they're communicating to me, they're going to try to make this deal without giving me any money. Really? I just don't think that way when I say it, though. But maybe that's most people. And you're a naturally collaborative guy. Yes. And you got a lot of non-tangibles to throw on the table to make it a great deal. Right.

And a lot of people that haven't thought up those non-tangibles or non-monetary stuff to make it a great deal. Right. They just know that they got no money. Right. And if you approach the table and you got no money, how are you going to make that deal? A lot of people think, well, I got to – let's make it win-win. Right.

And I'm so wonderful to deal with that you'll just be famous if you deal with it. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So what do you say instead of that? I want to make this good for you and good for me? Well, I start throwing out stuff that's really good for me that's not going to cost you a dime. I'm going to brainstorm with you like crazy as much as I can. And then I'll get you brainstorming.

And I'm in a discussion today to possibly go to a conference in Chicago. And I already know in advance they got like nothing for fees. Right. So you're like, welcome. Yeah. And we start brainstorming. And the young lady I'm on the phone with, she says, well, is there anybody that might come to the conference that you would want to meet? And my thought was, I don't know who's at the conference, but I do know.

I think a profession that wants to get better at negotiation is not afraid to admit it are baseball scouts. The profession that wants to get better at negotiation is not afraid to admit it are baseball scouts. I'm on a phone with, or I'm on a plane with a baseball scout just yesterday, and he's saying, like, look, as a scout, I'm out signing prospects on these million-dollar deals. We could have a several hundred thousand-dollar swing at a given deal. I'm not a negotiator. I'm a scout. So it occurs to me that these scouts are out there trying to find talent, and that they have never had time to become better negotiators by finding out the hard way.

You can learn my stuff really fast. I gave this guy a copy of my book. I said, you know what, read the first 10 pages. If you can't use it, then you don't ever have to talk to me again. In the first 10 pages, you learn some stuff you can use right away. So I'm on the phone with this girl for this conference today, and I go like, all right, look, I think I could really help out professional baseball organizations,

their scouts, maybe not their GMs who are doing the $100 million deals, but put me in a room with the guys that are doing the million-dollar deals. And I said, so if you know anybody for the Cubs or the White Sox, just give me an introduction and we'll talk about it. That would be worth me going to this conference for nothing. If I get a good introduction, it's something that will lead me to business. And she's like, I'll check into that because she's right there. They're running a big conference and it's very much good for Chicago and it's good for business people.

And most professional sports franchises come to know that what's good for the community is good for them. So then it becomes, in effect, win-win. I just don't use those terms. Gotcha. Gotcha. I like it though.

How do you become the smartest person in the room? You know, look for emotions first. Emotions? Yeah. You know what, if I figure out what's driving you, like if I tell what you're passionate about and you're passionate about getting better and you're passionate about helping other people and you're passionate about healthy competition. And you are fueled by a great feeling of achievement and competition at the same time. And you're more likely to do stuff and engage in activities that fuel both of those things at the same time. And the openly competitive people are either openly competitive because competition makes them feel good or

it's a defensive thing. And you need to know the difference between somebody who attacks you because they're being defensive and they're afraid they're going to get hurt and they're very fear driven and a person that's attacking you because they're just very competitive. And a very

competitive type just likes competition, makes a great ally. Whereas a person who's attacking you out of fear, they're not good long-term allies because they're going to feel at some point in time they got to screw you before you screw them. And so understanding the distinctions of those drivers, those two people look almost exactly the same. I had a phenomenal social relationship with a woman who was in real estate here in town three or four years ago. And she was fear of loss, overwhelmingly fear of loss driven. In relationships, in business and everything? Right. She was always just horrified that she was getting cheated.

And she didn't have great business partnerships. She was very successful, but not a lot of great partners. And it's a slight change. There's a two-millimeter change there between the competitive because they like competition or the aggressive assaulted because they're afraid of getting cheated. I need to know those differences because it's going to tell me what kind of a partner you're going to be.

How do you know those differences? Just by being aware, listening? Yeah. The emotional intelligence comes to you really fast once you start looking for it. That's why some people are really good at cold reads. One of the classes I'm teaching at Georgetown right now, there's a really brilliant young lady who's Afghani.

And she loves a cold read. You know, starting to make educated guesses about somebody real quick. And she's talking to a cab driver the other day, and the cab driver turns around and looks at her and says, did my wife send you? Because she guessed the guy's daughter's name. She guessed a lot of things that were accurate about his daughter and his wife just based on a quick interaction.

And for her it was a game, which is another thing. If it becomes fun for you, you pick it up faster. So you could get really good at this as soon as you start trying to look. It's amazing. It'll also go away quickly, too. You've got to watch it. The muscle. Yeah. Atrophy. Exactly right. You've got to train on it. What's a word you'd never say in a negotiation? Or the worst thing to say? Business deals or personal relationships? Depends upon what's coming out, whose mouth it's coming out of.

Do you ever say no or do you ever say? I might need to say no. I like to let no out a little at a time, which is actually how am I supposed to do that is the first way that I say no. That's no, without saying no. Right. That's saying no to what's on the table, but not no to you. Let's figure if we can work this out. There may come a point in time when I say no, said and done. But I'm going to need to explore every option there. I mean, I don't, saying, hearing yes is a bad thing to hear.

So don't say yes. Yeah, yes in and of themselves. I would much rather say, you know, okay, I'll do it. I love to say you win because when you win, you're going to perform. Yes is nothing without how. I need you to perform at a top level. You perform at a higher level when you feel like you win. at a top level.

You perform at a higher level when you feel like you win. If you look at me and we make a deal and say, okay, well, that's a resigned okay and we're going to run into trouble when we go to implement because the minute anything bad could happen by your inaction,

you know, there's a phrase, never be mean to someone who could hurt you by doing nothing, which nearly everybody can hurt you by doing nothing. So saying, okay, I'll do it. Right. Or yes, you win. Right.

Right. I want you to feel like you won. You win. You got the better end of the deal. Yeah. Because are you going to hold to the deal if you got the best end of the deal? Of course. You're going to love it.

You can brag about it. Awesome. Yeah. I got the better end. Right. So you win. Okay, I'll do it. You can brag about it. Awesome, yeah. I got the better end. So you win. Okay, I'll do it. You win. Because you're both in together. If I say it, that's good because you won.

If you say it, it's bad to me because you feel beat. I don't want you to feel beat. Which is one of the real big problems with negotiation because since I've been helping people get better at it, I get more stories. A guy says, let me tell you about this deal. I had them over a barrel.

There was nowhere for them to go. You know, for all intents and purposes, I took them hostage. Well, I guarantee you that the person they beat was as passive aggressive as possible on the implementation of that deal. And they left money on the table. Then they feel good about it. Right. Huh. Right.

So always make the other person feel like they got the better end of the deal. Right? Right. They won. Yeah, they won. And it was their idea. It was their idea. I like your idea.

I'll do it. Something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's really good. And so that's why the one, usually the one word answers of yes and no, those are all so frequently misunderstood.

You know, there's three kinds of yeses. There's commitment, confirmation, counterfeit. And most people are used to getting lured into a trap with yes. You know, would you like to make more money? Is it true this is the off-season? You know, whatever setup, yes, there is. You know what's leading someplace. One of my students is on a honeymoon, and he's wanting to get an upgrade on his bungalow,

and it's the off-season in this resort. Now, what they typically do is they cut prices on their basic rooms, but not the honeymoon suites. But he knows they're all vacant. Now, he doesn't want to cut price on a regular room. He wants a honeymoon suite. And he starts out the conversation with like, you know, isn't it true this is the off-season? The general manager knows there's a honeymoon suite. And he starts out the conversation with like, you know, isn't it true this is the off season?

The general manager knows there's a trap there. What's he say? And so the guy starts going sideways on him immediately. Really? He didn't say yes. Right. He didn't want to say yes because he knows that yes is commitment and yes is probably a trap. And he knows, I don't know where you're going with this, but you're going someplace.

That's what he said? Yeah. And then what happened? Well, and so then my student realized that he fell into this yes trap thing. So he had to kind of get back out of it. And they started talking. And instead of trying to get yeses and nos on him, he started describing the situation. He started showing them a little bit.

Yeah, well, I'm sure you know a lot of guys like me come in. We want a room. We don't want to pay anything for it. You get so many tourists that are in here in the off-season, and they're cheap. That's why they're here in the off-season anyway, because they're cheap to start with. They don't want to pay anything for anything anyway.

Now, the managers appreciate where the guy's coming from. He's leading with the negative. He ends up getting the upgrade. Really? from. He's leading with the negative. Right. He ends up getting the upgrade. Really? Yeah. It's free because he built the relationship.

Yeah. The guy's got an empty room. Yeah. Never be meeting somebody who could hurt you by doing nothing. Not giving you the empty room is doing nothing. You know, you want this guy to give you a favor and he doesn't own the hotel and those rooms are normally vacant anyway, so his owner, whoever owns the hotel,

they're not mad at him because those rooms are empty. They expected him to be empty. So he's got options. You know, ultimately you want to make the pitch like you give me that upgrade, I'm going to be a fan for life. I'm going to tell everybody how well I was treated. I'm going to tell all my friends about this. Something I've done for like the last 10 years, a friend of mine told me this line that he's like, you know, if you ever want an upgrade, if you ever want like something better in the deal, use this line.

And I swear I've been using it. Maybe it's been wrong, but I'd love your opinion. All right. I say, what's the chance you can help me with this? All right. So that's a what question to start with. What's the chance? Two things about that that I like. First of, so that's a what question to start with. What's the chance? Two things about that that I like.

First of all, it's a what question. Yeah. And secondly... What's the chance you can upgrade me? You're elevating the person when you ask it for help. So you're giving them power, right? Right. The opportunity to have power.

Right. Yeah, so there's... And I don't know that I'd change that sentence at all. I might say in advance, like, look, this is really going to seem greedy of me. You know, because you can't. Leave me with the negative. Leave me with the negative.

If you try to call out a negative that's not there, you won't plant it. If you try to deny a negative that's not there, you plant that baby. That's why you have to know the difference between a denial and a straight observation. And that's a subtle difference. Because you're probably going to want to say before you ask a guy for a discount, you're probably going to say, this guy's going to think I'm cheap and I'm greedy. I don't want him to think that. So if you mention it at all, you get instinct to say, look, I don't want you to think I'm cheap and greedy here. That's a denial.

That plants it. So, I bet you might think that I'm being a little greedy. I'm sure it's going to seem greedy. I'm being greedy, but what's the chance you can upgrade me? Yeah. You can support me in getting up there. And so, if you're asking for

an upgrade as a human being, guys go, no, that's not greedy. You want them thinking no. You want them thinking no. You want them saying no. No is a great answer because when somebody says no, they have just protected and defended themselves. Like it's ridiculous. You will be stunned at what people are willing to say no to. I mean, just absolutely stunned. I'm coaching a guy who's working on a new position with the city of Beverly Hills.

And they're constructing, since it's a new position, he sees this job description he wants to take, but it's problematic the way they put it together. And he says, how do I negotiate with these guys? Because this job description is not going to make it work. And I said, look at him across the table and say, do you want me to fail? And their answer is no. And I said, well, look at how this is set up. You know, I'd love to have this job. But instead of saying, he wants us to dial with him and say, hey, look, this is never going to work the way you guys designed this.

Right. You can't say that, though. You can't is never going to work the way you guys designed this. Right. You can't say that, though. You can't say that. Because then you're coming from defense mode or something. Right, right, right. Now their ego's in the way. Because when you say, do you want me to fail? I mean, that gives them a gift to help you. Yeah, they say no.

They protect themselves. You're then coming to the other guy's rescue. I mean, you're punching a lot of really powerful emotional triggers there when you say to somebody, you want me to fail. And one way or the other, I mean, we try to sit down and think of the most ridiculous question that they would never say yes to. Like if at the end of a negotiation, if I can't, one of my last things I'm always going to say is like,

if you can't budge at all, I'll say, all right, well, look, it seems like you're powerless here. Oh. Because nobody wants to say yes to that. Wow. It seems like there's nothing you can do. It seems like you're completely powerless here. And they'll put you on hold. They'll find a way to help you. So it seems like you're completely powerless here. And they'll put you on hold. They'll find a way to help you.

So it seems like you're powerless. You can't help me? It sounds like you're powerless here. Right. Nobody ever would say yes to that. Wow. That is powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you use that a lot when you're at the end of any deal? At the end of any deal, if we haven't come to an agreement

that I'm happy with, that'll be the last thing. I'll say it. It seems like there's nothing I could say. And it seems like you're powerless. It seems like nothing that you could say to them to get what you need. Right. Or for them to move deal points and it seems like you're powerless. Right. They're powerless.

Right. Holy cow. That's powerful insight. So yeah, a lot of people have cut deals by they thought it was completely in the tank. They're actually just trying to end positively. It's really, it's critical to end positively. So give me one little extra thing then if, you know, they want to end positively, not like,

yeah, I'm powerless here, so let's do the deal. Yeah. Okay, I'll throw in this or I'll give you this. Like I make it a regular port. Like my credit cards, almost all of them got fees. And I call every year and ask them to waive the fee. Yeah. And they almost always do until the guy says, well, we waived the fee on you the last five years in a row.

It sounds like you're powerless here. And I'll say, yeah, I'll say that. I'll say, it sounds like you're absolutely powerless here. It sounds like you're nothing you could do. And they'll put me on hold. Let me see put me on hold. And if they find anything, they'll come back and do it because nobody wants to be powerless. Oh, wow. That's great. Let's finish with the final few questions. Make sure you guys get the book here. This is fascinating. Never split the difference. Negotiating as if your

life depended on it. Some powerful insights in this interview so far, and I know you have a framework for negotiating in the book. Final few questions. What are you most grateful for in your life recently? I'm just grateful that my son still is in business with me, that my son can tolerate me. I've run across nearly everyone that I've run across since I've been in L.A. I'm just happy in one way or another that they've come into my life.

I've got to tell you, I'm grateful. I know it's going to sound like a cliche. I'm grateful to be sitting here right now. I think this, when I started finding out about you and all the cool stuff that you've done. I appreciate it. And how much positivity and help you're bringing people. I mean, I think that's incredible. I appreciate it.

People who listen to your podcast are getting phenomenal value out of it. Yeah, I appreciate it. See how he's ending on a positive? See how good this is? And I meant it. I appreciate it, yeah, yeah. Cool. There's a question

we ask at the end called the three truths and this is if it's the last day for you many many years from now your books have been erased all your techniques have been deleted from time the information you put out to the world is gone for whatever reason and

you have a piece of paper and your great greatgreat-grandchildren comes up to you and says, will you write down the three things you know to be true about everything you learned in business, relationships, school, FBI, everything in life you've learned

coming down to three simple truths that you would pass on to us and that's all the thing we know to live our lives by. What would be those three truths? Yeah, be generous. It'll come back to you much more than you could ever imagine.

Yeah, work hard. Be generous, work hard, be honest. I mean, any of the opposites of those are just damaging shortcuts, just really damaging shortcuts. Just really damaging shortcuts. So, yeah, be generous, work hard, be honest. I like it. Simple and effective.

I like those. Thanks. Make sure you guys get this book, Never Split the Difference. Where can we connect with you online? BlackSwanLTD.com B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N-L-T-D, like limited.com. We are not ballerinas. This will be the black. The opposite. Yeah. But we're very agile. We like to have a lot of balance. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Ballerinas are actually great athletes. They are. And you're at Voss Negotiation on Twitter? Yes. Are you on the Instagram and the Facebook as well?

Black Swan LTD on Facebook. I haven't plugged into Instagram yet. I would imagine we will soon, as soon as I drag myself into the 21st century. Perfect. And again, it's a former FBI top hostage negotiator's field-tested tools for talking anyone into or out of just about anything. So this is extremely important in terms of personal relationships, family relationships, intimate relationships, friendships, business relationships, any type of relationships. This is going to support you. this is going to support you, I think it's a must read and understand if you want to have peace in your life. Because negotiation is a constant thing that we go through all the time,

especially when you have kids, all these different things. You're always going to be negotiating something. Right. And you might as well be good at it. Yeah, you might as well enjoy it at the same time. You might as well enjoy it and have fun with it. So before I ask the final question, Chris,

I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your incredible skill set that you've developed over the years from all the cases you've dealt with and served on a huge impact to make sure that people get away safely and people don't kill anyone and all these things that you've done as your work at the FBI and also for your service in helping so many of us entrepreneurs and become better entrepreneurs through teaching at USC and Georgetown. Georgetown. Georgetown.

And for coming out here and sharing a wealth of information. I feel like I'm pretty good at negotiating, but I feel like I don't know anything after doing this. So I appreciate your wisdom. Thanks. All the years of your hard work and for bringing this to life because so many people need this.

Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. I'm honored to do it. I really am. Yeah. Final question is what's your definition of greatness? Wow. I think someone that was both true to themselves and had an impact on their world. Because I think people basically really are good.

I don't think that we're, by definition, evil creatures. So if you're true to your nature, then the impact that you have on the world is what the universe put you here for. And so then if you're true to your nature, then you should be phenomenal. Thanks, boss. Thanks for coming on. My pleasure. Thank you. And there you have it.

Thank you guys so much for being here. And make sure to let me know what you thought. What did you learn from this interview? Share with me in the comments section at the show notes, lewishouse.com slash 379. Post this on your social media, put it on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram and let people know about how they can become a better negotiator in the business world and any part of their lives. This was super fun for me. I loved being interrogated and going through the exercise. Make sure to grab a copy of Chris's book. Also, we've got all the information back at the show notes.

lewishouse.com slash 379 so you can follow Chris, learn more about him, get the book, all that good stuff. I appreciate you guys very much. If this is your first time here, then welcome. We do this every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And we bring you the most inspiring people in the world to help you unlock your inner greatness and bring your gifts to the world. So thank you for being here. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast over on iTunes, over on Stitcher or SoundCloud, and leave a review. Let me know what you think. Leave a review over on iTunes. We've got over 1,000, I think 1,100 five-star reviews now. So thank you for your continued

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great. Thank you.