The School of Greatness - 382 Rockstars, Fame, and Celebrities: What Really Matters with Shep Gordon

Episode Date: September 19, 2016

"Success is a game of rejection." - Shep Gordon If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/382

This is episode number 382 with Shep Gordon. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome, everyone.

Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so excited about today. Today is an amazing day. No matter where you are in the world, it's a beautiful day because you get another opportunity. You get another opportunity to do something amazing and magical today. We never know when it's our last day. So the fact that you're here listening to this right now, whether you're driving somewhere, you're working out, you're cooking, you're waking up, you're going to bed, wherever you

are in the world, just take a moment and acknowledge that, hey, I'm here another day and let's do something positive. Let's inspire someone else. Let's take one step in the right direction towards our dreams. I challenge you to step up today and thank you for making this moment, this experience a part of your day. It means the world to me. We've got an incredible guest on. His name is Shep Gordon. And in the course of his legendary career as a manager, agent, and producer, Shep Gordon has worked with and befriended some of the biggest names in the entertainment industry. You're going to hear some of those names in just a moment once I bring him on. He is also credited

for inventing the celebrity chef. He's worked with Nobu, Wolfgang Puck, and many others and kind of helped them position themselves in the market to become these celebrity chefs. And it's incredible to see how he did this for so many people and how many people credit him and thank him for giving them the opportunity to build their platform in that space. He's also worked with many other individuals, including His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and he's revolutionized the food industry and turned the culinary arts into a multi-billion dollar industry that it is today. Shep was named one of the 100 most influential people in Rolling Stones magazine. He was the subject of Mike Meyer's 2013 documentary, Super Mench, The Legend of Shep Gordon. And he is the subject of Mike Myers' 2013 documentary, Super Mensch, The Legend of Shep Gordon. And he is the author of the new memoir, They Call Me Super Mensch, which has some incredible, crazy stories about how he built up all these artists to making them the mega superstars that they are today.

And the things we talk about in this interview are what it is about fame that so many people can't handle and why almost all of them somehow crash at some point. How Shep changed the lives of the culinary artists and created the celebrity chef. We'll dive into that. What creates strong partnerships in business relationships and in life? Why Shep has never signed a contract with any of his superstar artists that he's managed and why they all trust him because of it, the power of service and focusing on others and what changed his life forever when he met a certain mentor who taught him this lesson.

All this and some wild and crazy stories that you're not going to want to miss in this interview with the one, the only, Shep Gordon. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got a great guest on today. His name is Shep Gordon. He's got a new book out. Make sure to go check out this book right now. It's called They Call Me Super Mench. It's a backstage pass to the amazing world of film, food, and rock and roll.

And thank you again for coming on, Chef. Aloha. Thanks for having me. Aloha. Happy to be here on this beautiful day. Yeah, it's amazing here. Now, I have to be honest with you. I never heard about you before Jason Gannnor introduced us recently over email, he said,

and he doesn't introduce me to too many people. And so when I know he makes an introduction, it's someone I should look out for and research. And he said, you've got to interview this guy. He's kind of like the original Scooter Braun. That's a great compliment. Thank you. And then the more I started researching about you

and realizing that you've been working with some of the biggest names, biggest celebrities, actors, musicians. You invented the celebrity chef or the personality chef is what I read about you back in the day where there's so many top chefs out there now. Yeah, that's great. And you've had this incredible, crazy, adventurous life. There's a documentary about you. You've got this new book out here. I'm curious, why did you decide to write about

your adventures and why did you decide to come out with this book? Why wasn't a huge part of my life always? It's more like an event happens, I react to it. An event happens, I react to it. An event happens, I react to it.

So I, Mike Myers had done a documentary on me. Yep. Which was very well received. Yeah. And in a very special way. A lot of people were reaching out to me in a real heartfelt way to, you know, how did I do what I did? Did I have any secrets to convey? Putting me in a fairly uncomfortable position for me. Why is that?

I don't think of myself as someone in a very high chair looking down addressing the masses and helping. I feel like I can help one person who I really know maybe make their life a little happier. But do I have the knowledge to help masses of people? I didn't know. I still don't know. Sure.

But it sort of opened up my mind to it. It's like, what is appealing to these people? Because I had no rhythm to my life. I woke up. I did what I did. And Anthony came up to me. I'd never met him. And I'm in a little bit of a group. Anthony Bourdain.

Anthony Bourdain. When was this? This was maybe two and a half years ago at a, there's a chef in LA called Roy Choi. Yes. Who reached out to me. It was the first time since I had retired that I felt like I wanted to act on that reach. So I came to LA to get to know them. When I left the culinary world, I felt as if I had left one thing undone, which was part of a movement that successfully changed the lives of the culinary artists.

They went from not being able to send their kids to private school to being able to live a respectful life as an artist, not as a cook. Which they are. But I helped to create an industry where there was a generation coming in who were only doing $250 meals. That's what their goal was, to go work at Spago or go work at Le Cirque. And that wasn't the way I wanted to leave the industry. You know, any of those, I gave the commencement speeches here at the CIA, and I said, you know, it's really nice that you guys can walk into a job for $150,000 a year

and feed people who can afford $250 dinners. But if you think that's what you're on this planet for, boy, you lost and going to be unhappy because right outside your front door are people starving to death. You need to feed them as well as the $250 dinners. And until you get that, you're going to have miserable lives. And you can turn it all around in one second just by remembering, applying what you do to what's needed. And Roy Choi is one of those guys. He's the first one I've seen in America who really gets it.

So I wanted to support him. I came in. Anthony Bourdain walked over to me and he said, are you Chef Gordon? And I said, yes. And I'm a groupie. So Anthony Bourdain coming over was, you know, I really wanted to meet him. You watch CNN. Yeah, absolutely.

I'm a CNN guy. And he said, you know, I wouldn't exist if it wasn't for you. And I said, why is that? And he said, because you created Celebrity Chefs and I created my career by hating Celebrity Chefs. Wow. That's hilarious. He said, I'd love to do a book with you and figure out what's behind the curtain. Wow. That's hilarious. other people. Was there anything at all that I could find if I spent some time looking at it that maybe could be helpful, maybe give some meaning to my life rather than just doing what

I did? So that was the exercise. And it was great. I don't think I got to any real answers, but I got to some small things that I can pass on and I do in the book. And I got to laugh a lot thinking of the stories. They were just stories. Crazy stories. Oh, my God. The ones I had to leave out. Even crazier.

But I had a good time. It was really fun. Give me a taste of the craziest, one of the craziest stories in the book that just seems like so outlandish. We were speaking before we started today about how important failure is to success for so many reasons, particularly if you're in a partnership, because the normal reaction in a partnership, and most things need a partnership, is to put the blame on someone. Look for who did it wrong. Not deal with how do we make it right, but who did it wrong. And so Alice and I, Alice Cooper was my first act.

We have a very close relationship. We started very early in our lives. And one of the duties that I took on was writing the format of the show. Alice is an entertainer. He's amazing. And he enjoys having some structure. So we were doing our first stadium. It was Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh.

Big event for us, 1972 or three. Very few rock acts had ever. Maybe the Beatles had done a stadium. Maybe the Rolling Stones. I don't think the Rolling Stones at that point. So this was very gigantic. And I was a very young guy and made a horrible mistake by announcing what we were going to do.

You know, Alice was built on ridiculousness. So we had to be more ridiculous at a stadium. So it took me days of thinking. I said, I know what I'll do. I'll shoot him out of a cannon, just like the circus trick. You know, you go to the circus and the clown jumps into cannon and runs around from the other side.

So I go to Warner, but I announce it. See Alice get shot out of a cannon. And I go to Warner Brothers and they had built all our props and a guy with these little half glasses didn't even look at me. He's at his desk like this. He's been there for 50 years. And I said, you know, the guillotine worked great. Thank you very much. Oh, good. I'm glad it worked. It was fantastic. And the electric chair. I said, but I want to do something a little different. What do you want to do? And he said, I want to shoot hours out of a cannon. He didn't even look up at me.

And he goes, I want to shoot Alice out of a cannon. Didn't even look up at me. And he goes, what period cannon? What? And he said, what period cannon? Revolutionary War, World War I, World War II. And I said, whatever works best. And he went to a drawer and he actually pulled out a blueprint of a cannon that shoots a dummy. No way. No, for real.

So I'm so cocky that I advertise it on radio. Oh my gosh. I get it built. The guy's never failed me. It's like 12, 14, maybe 20 feet long, weighs like 3 tons. It takes a whole 40 foot truck. And we go to break in the show because we're always broke in our shows. We go to the first

show and the trick is that Alice goes into the barrel of the cannon, into a trap door. He gets taken out and driven around to where the dummy is going to fly to. We do some schtick on stage to give him time. The dummy comes out, and he comes into a spotlight like he just landed. Right. That's the schtick. Gotcha.

He's not actually going into a cannon. Yes. So we do the shtick. We turn the lights out. There's flame torches. There's things that take some time. They light the fuse. The fuse burns down slowly.

Big puff. The dummy comes out, maybe one foot. Alice is out there. He didn't have it going. It's the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. Oh, my gosh. We're two days away from 50,000 people sold out. So what are we going to do?

He goes to sleep, and I'll figure it out. It's my job. I'll figure it out. So in the hotel, I get to the hotel, and they have fire extinguishers, and they're the foam ones. You turn them upside down, they shoot white foam. I go, we'll make it a giant penis. I'll have all this cum pour out.

I'll get all the fire extinguishers. So overnight I had some sacks made up for like, you know, genital balls. He looked at me and said, is this going to work? I said, you just got to work it. It's going to be fantastic. He's rubbing it and he's licking it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

And the foam comes out and it's one little dribble. Oh, my gosh. And nobody in the room except me and him has any idea. Now it's one day away, 50,000 people. We have news crews coming to shoot us in Pittsburgh, see this amazing shot out of a can. What are we going to do? So he shows up the next night. He said, did you figure it out?

I said, well, you're not going to like it, but you're going to spend the night in the hospital, but it'll be okay. And we'll do the show from like wheelchairs. And he said, you got to be kidding me. Will this thing work? And I said, I'll make it work. It'll work. Just go with me. And that's what we did.

And we did the show, and the newspaper gave us a front page about what a great artist that he would show up when he's been hurt the night before. And they had TV crews showing the film of the cannon blowing up and getting taken away. You faked that he got hurt the night before. Yes. Yeah. So we took a failure. Right. And turned it into a huge success.

And the reason we were able to do it is because he didn't for one second take up my time with you jerk, you asshole, you're screwing up my career. I can't believe you would do, which is what happens normally in those kind of tight situations. So that made our bond so strong. And it made me never want to have him fail again so much. And gave him so much faith in me that he never asked any questions. That failure made our success so much easier and more enjoyable.

It's got to roll with the punches. And we hugged and it was fantastic instead of hating each other at the end of the experience. You would think that this big personality would be so fixated on one thing happening and he would be upset at you, but he wasn't. Right. Was it because you already had a great relationship?

We had started great relationship? We had started a relationship. He started to see what I could do. We didn't have a contract, which I've never signed the contract with any artist. And I think that's really important. As a manager for my artists, I always made there be contracts when they dealt with humans. For my relationship with my artists, I never would sign a contract. Wow. And what would your, I guess, commission be with artists?

I had a strange... How'd that work? The standard industry was 20% of gross. It was a very big payment. And that's when I started with Alice. I was 20% in the first few artists I had. And then I realized that I didn't want to get the Coca-Cola. I just didn't want to be that guy.

But I understood that it needed to be done. So when I would sign an artist, I'd say, listen, it's 20% of gross. If you don't need to see this face and you don't need to talk to this mouth, if I can put a person in the middle who's with you 24 hours a day and that person talks to me, I'll do it for 15%. And I never had anybody take the 20%. Wow. And you saved a lot of time.

A lot of time and aggravation. And you could work with multiple people probably at that point. That's why I was able to manage 35, 40 major attractions at one time without any of them feeling jealous or, you know. Yeah, they make more money and they still get the best of you, right? And they have someone 24-7 right there who's, you know. So were you just paying that person a salary? Yeah, I gave that person a lot of huge salary.

Right. Yeah, they made fortunes. Money was never my, that was never my. Sammy Hagar did an autobiography. He talks about when he brought Van Halen in to see me as a manager. David Geffen, he had asked David Geffen. He was on Geffen Records as a solo artist. And he said to David, who's the best manager in the business?

And he said, there's a guy named Shep Gordon, but he loves women and drugs too much. So he came right to me. Wow, there you go. But I sat with the group i told him what i told most artists if you're looking to maximize the economics out of your career i'm absolutely a hundred percent the wrong guy um if you're looking to not have to use your second name to be a mount rushmore kind of an act no one says al Alice who, Raquel who, Groucho who. That's what I enjoy doing. That's what I do well.

But sometimes that costs money. You have to sacrifice the money. What do you mean by that? The second name? Not being famous enough that everybody knows you. You know, if you're, you know, Alice is Alice.

Yeah. You know, Teddy Pendergrass was Teddy. As opposed to, you know, an usher is an usher. He's made it through. Yeah. as opposed to, you know, ushers and ushers. He's made it through. Yeah. As opposed to 99% of the hit acts who are, you know, they come, they go. Yeah.

They don't last forever. I knew how to make someone in Mount Rushmore kind of an artist. My acts were Blondie. I didn't have any misses. I was very – I shouldn't say that. There was some I didn't advance, But for the most part, my Rick James, Luther Vandross, Teddy Pendergrass, Blondie Gypsy Kings, which was a very hard. That was a really tough one to pull off. Really?

Because they didn't speak English. Wow. So radio play for non-speaking English in America is a little tough. Sure, sure. That was a fun exercise. That would be what a scooter prone would probably do today. Gypsy Kings was a great exercise.

I had to do the... I had an obligation. It's in the book, but I had a moral obligation to a head of a record company who had given me a lot of money when he shouldn't have for an artist, Teddy Pendergrass, who had a horrible accident and was a quadriplegic.

We didn't know if we would live or not. I had made a promise to Teddy. I couldn't live up to the promise. I didn't have the money to give him that I had promised him he would get. And the head of a record company gave me the money, knowing that he may never get it back. So I always knew I owed him. And when I heard about the Gypsy Kings in the south of France,

I just knew this was something I could make work, and it wasn't going to cost a lot of money. So I went to him and I said, listen, trust me. Let's go to France. I'll make it work. I can pay you back with this one, and it won't cost you a lot. So we flew. We had the Warners playing.

We signed this group, the Gypsy Kings, who were on the beach. They were playing. But on the beach when they were playing was every beautiful woman you've ever seen in your life. Like, so gorgeous. This is how I got into it. This was my... So I had gone to Centrope, saw these women, saw

the Gypsy Kings, bought the cassette, was like, you know, you put money down and took their cassette like the streets of New York. Came back and I was driving down Sunset Boulevard and playing the tape fairly loud and this gorgeous girl at a red light said, is that the Gypsy Kings from St. Tropez? I said, oh, they're my favorite group. I didn't know they had a record. And it happened to me twice with two beautiful women.

And I said, if this is that strong, I know how to make this work. And that's when I called up Krasnoy. I said, you're going to think I'm crazy. It's a guy who was at Elektra. But I got a way to get you back your money. And when I told him the story, he said, you're out of your mind. I said, I know.

That's why I'm good. That's why you've got to trust me. So now we decide that we come back. And how do you break a band that no one will give radio play to in a time when the only thing is radio play? And when was this? This was probably 82, 83. Wow.

I had a good friend who owned Paul Mitchell Hair Salon, Hair Products. Yes. So I went to John Paul's, his name. And Paul Mitchell was still alive. John Paul was running it. And I told him about the Gypsy King. Oh, I know that band. Everybody knows that band from San Tropez.

And I said, well, I just signed them. What about if I bring them to America? We do 10 concerts. I give you half the tickets to every concert for women. And I'll give you for every salon coffee cups, T-shirts for all your employees that say Gypsy Kings, music, and you can give your customers tickets to a concert by the Gypsy Kings. And he said, I'm in. So I went to Krasnoye and sold them.

We thought I was out of my mind. And it was like a rocket ship took off because we had every beautiful girl in the building. So every guy wanted to be there. It was Pretty simple. How did you see an actor, an individual, and say, I'm going to make them into a one-name symbol? For me, the Gypsy Kings were the only band after Alice that I worked with that wasn't already in the public eye and well-known. Most of them are already well-known. I was brought in to maintain

and enhance the brand rather than create the brand. In 99% of the cases, I got Blondie when they had a number one record. Teddy had a number one record. Luther Vandross was a number one record. Kenny Loggins, a number one record. At that point, theross was a number one record. Kenny Loggins, a number one record. At that point, the record companies would call me up because they knew the artists would be happy because they didn't have to sign a contract.

Right. So that was their first moment of happiness. And they knew I wasn't going to screw over the record company. I was a pretty honorable guy. I didn't backstab anyone. Coupons are important to me. So they had faith that I wouldn't screw them. And I was good at what I did. There weren't a lot of guys who were really good at it. And

the only thing they cared about at the record companies was that they wouldn't have an artist call them up screaming, why'd you do this to me? They just wanted to be safe. And I was usually a safe corner. You were safe, but I also read that you created all these stunts for your artists, right? You were like the original stunt creator that's what I enjoy doing I like to create history and I think that's one of the things when I was writing the book I realized

that I've done that since I've been in college and although I never really vocalize it to myself that really is a principle I think that is important for young people on a path if that path is one of creation. You know, it's one thing if you show up at work and you're given a list of what to do and you have to finish that list, which is admirable also. And you're directed every second.

But if you choose a profession where you have to make choices and you have to create things. You don't have to wait for things to happen. If you think something can move you from point A to B, create the B. And that's what I've done my whole life with my artists. I think one of the funny examples in the book, which is also in the movie, was Alice was built.

We had a very clear focus on Alice Cooper. And that clear focus was winning for us was getting the parents over breakfast to tell their kids, if you go see Alice Cooper tonight, I'm grounding you for a month. That was a win. That was the win. That's the goal. If we could get that in every house in America, we'd be the biggest act

in the entire world, we felt. So that was our goal always. We never lost sight of that track with real art behind it, real social revolution behind it, with real things behind it. But the pinpoint to get the attention, to get them intrigued enough to look inside was hatred of parents.

Because that developed an audience. Every kid goes through a period of hating parents. Art is very narrow. Art attracts different people. Some people like purple, some like pink, some like white, some like blue, you know, some like Picasso, some like rap, some like, but every kid goes through a period of rebellion. And if you look at the big artists of our generation, the Elvis Presleys, the Beatles, the Stones, they all were hip hop. They all were rejected by parents. Elvis Presley couldn't see his hips on the Ed Sullivan show.

Really? Yeah. That's what broke him. So funny. And the manager would only put him on the show if they would not show the hips. That's why he's such a genius manager, Colonel Parker, because he got it. So knowing that, we get to Alice is now very big in America. Everybody hates him.

We book England. I get over there a couple of weeks early, and we have very little sales. People don't really know him. I assumed, again, I was a rookie. I just assumed if we're big in America, we're going to be big in England. And I probably overbooked the hall. And I was sort of panicked. How do I sell out 6,000 seats?

I got two weeks. I was sort of panicked. How do I sell out 6,000 seats? I got two weeks. So they sent me into a guy named Derek Taylor's office who worked at the record company, but had spent his life as a six-beetle. He was their publicist. Great guy.

Just a great guy. Died a few years ago, but amazing guy. And he had never heard of Alice, which was my first trouble sign since he was running part of the record company and we were on their label but he was very cool george harrison was in the office that day i remember a jazz artist named george mele george harrison had just come back from india was still wearing the white robes and stuff was in the office very impressive and i had to wait till the end of the day he was drinking the whole day and smoking cigarettes and finally about 8 30 9 o'clock he sort of turned to me and said, okay, and now you? And I told him I managed Alice Cooper. Who's Alice Cooper? I said, well, come into town. And he said,

tell me some stuff about him. I started to tell him. I got to the hatred of the parents. And he said, oh, that's really interesting. And I said, you know, what we look for is we don't care about Rolling Stone. We don't care about music papers. We care about what the parents read and watch because we're trying to get them, not the kids. If we get the parents, the kids will follow. I said, is there any one thing, like the Ed Sullivan Show in America, and I told him the story about the Ed Sullivan Show,

is there any one thing that every parent watches? Because the Ed Sullivan Show, every single family watches. Sure. And he said, you know, the biggest thing here is the BBC in the morning does the traffic reports. And we only have two TV stations. And it's the morning shows, and all the parents watch these morning shows. It's always on at the breakfast table. And I said, what's the busiest traffic in the rush hour in the morning?

And he said, Piccadilly Circus always backed up. They always have helicopters showing, you know, deferred here, do this. So I showed him this picture I had. We had just done a picture of Alice naked with a snake wrapped around his genitals by Richard Abaddon, a great photographer. Really great. He was probably the number one photographer in the world

at the time. So it had credibility as an art piece. Even though it was ridiculous. Sure. We ended up putting it on a billboard truck, breaking it down at Piccadilly. We had girls in hot pants giving out,

it was 72, in hot pants giving out flyers. And on the morning news was this big, giant, naked Alice. No way. and it said wembley stadium the next day at wembley huh yeah the next day mary whitehouse who was in parliament put in a bill to ban alice from ever coming to england which was it was better than anything we could have ever hoped for in our lives and it sold out in a week. Wow. But that's creating history.

Yeah. You know, you don't wait for it to happen. Yeah. You think about what is the statement I want to give to the public that will get them to where I want them to go. Yeah. It's almost like you were the ultimate artist yourself. In some form, in terms of the media, yeah. I mean, you can't make that work unless you have a real artist in the middle, a real something,

a real product, or whatever that brand is that you're pushing, it has to deliver on what you are promising to the people. Alice really, when a kid came there and watched the show, he knew his parents would hate him for being there.

We used to chop up baby dolls and do anything that was really disgusting that parents hated because that was the focus of it. And it worked. Wow. Amazing. And I read also from Jason that you have a love-hate relationship with fame. And he said that there's numerous times that there's a toxic waste of celebrity. The toxic waste of celebrity is fame and that in your line of work, you'll make people more famous and it'll probably kill you. That was the way I used to start all my management.

more famous and it'll probably kill you. That was the way I used to start all my management con. Whenever I'd get an artist and I'd say, I used to wear glasses and I would take off my glasses and... Like in the book, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've had an operation since then. That's great. But

I would say, when I take off my glasses and I'd say, this is really serious. This is not like a joke. If I do my job perfectly, there's a very good chance I'll kill you. Luckily, I'm not perfect, but I will maim you. Wow. You will get maimed. So you've got to really understand this is not a joke.

You will be maimed. And they were all maimed. But it's, you know, all you can do is be honest with someone. I think, you know, you're born, you're going to die. It's the only coupon you know for sure when you're born. So you have the right to pick your journey in between. And I think all you can do to your fellow travelers is be honest with them and let them make their choice.

Right. I think one of the reasons I probably retired was that I wasn't enjoying what I foreseed my gift to be, which was helping these people get famous and then watching them destroy themselves. Did everyone destroy themselves? No, no. But a lot of them bounced back. Alice was in rehab once and hit the bottom, came back.

Michael Douglas was in rehab once, came back. once and hit the bottom, came back. Michael Douglas was in rehab once, came back. What is it about fame that makes it so many people aren't able to handle it? I've never come to the end of the question. I don't really know. I think my view of it is very

narrow because I dealt 99% with people whose goal was to get large amounts of people to applaud for them. Yes. Their music, their art, their... Whatever it was, they needed, and their drive to get to the point where they get to is so unnatural that it's not only because they want recognition for their art.

There's usually some personal hole that they feel is going to be filled by 20,000 people applauding. And it's not. That's the reality of it. It's just not going to do it, whatever that hole is. And I think the ones who don't have that hole drop off you know success is a game of rejection you know i tell everybody i work with you have to embrace every rejection because it takes hundreds of rejections to get accepted that's just the nature of what it is i don't know again i don't know the answer as to why it's that way but rejection is the path to success

and you have to be able to embrace it. And in the show business world, the rejections are so often and so harsh. And the environment is so alien to a conscious life. That to keep pursuing it in the face of that kind of rejection usually is something more than just wanting people to see what you do. Usually it's some hole somewhere, something from your childhood, something from somewhere that just doesn't get filled up, and it translates into drugs or liquor or seven marriages or firing everybody every two weeks or suicides or car wrecks.

And the lucky ones take the fall and come back through it. Yeah. Do you think that whole is also what makes them so creative and driven? Possible. Very possible. I don't have any real answers. Because each one's a unique story. Have you seen an artist or an act maybe that you've either worked with or haven't that you know

that was the most whole and complete inside that they could have been and had all the fame and the success in the world and they made it out okay? I have to really think about that. That's a good question. Yeah, I've seen some, but not the ones that have ever gotten to the Mount Rushmore fame. Right. What does it take to hit that i think what i've seen more than anything is people who have learned how to fill that hole in different ways

you know i think for me cannabis um really fills that whatever that thing is in me that's driven me to wherever i've been driven to yeah um i've seen it in other people. I think Willie Nelson, who wouldn't mind my saying that. On the back of your book he talks about. But the same kind of thing. So I think if you get lucky and you can live with whatever your crutch is

and are aware that it's a crutch, we're humans. It's tough out there. Is there any whole human you think that doesn't have crutches? I can tell you that being around the Dalai Lama, I don't know if he has. I've seen him speak before. He's pretty impressive. I don't know if he has holes.

Very possible he does. I don't know him well enough. You made him breakfast. I saw that. I had the honor of traveling with him and making him breakfast. Wow. But when he walks in a room for me anyway, and I talked to a lot of the people, I had the same feeling. It's like taking the greatest shower of your life.

You just feel so clean. Yeah. You know, it's like he wipes your computer clean. It's a fresh start. You get a whole new chance. So I don't know if he has I know that he has this is a very difficult time for him.

He's lost his country. He sort of let his people down. He's talked about that and that he's only a human and he's done the best he can possibly do but he knows that he lost his country for his people. That's a difficult position to be in and to maintain.

Being his holiness. Who everyone thinks he's supposed to be. Exactly. He's a human being. Yeah, he's a human being. And he makes you so aware of it. He's funny. He laughs.

He jokes. I think my sense is, although he's never said this to me, and I read a lot of reviews and stuff with people talking about my close friend, the Dalai Lama, which is the furthest possible thing from the truth. If he walked in the room, I don't know if he would recognize me. So it's so far from the truth. With you. Yeah.

He sees so many people every day. But every single person, every single plant, every single cup, every single table, he deals with it like it's a miracle, which is wild. There's no difference at all between the way he treats like a table that he's walking by and a baby. He'll stop and he'll rub the table. He truly sees the miracle in everything. So I don't know what his holes are or if he has them, but that giggle he has is just amazing. That's pretty funny. It's amazing.

How old is he now? Is he 70? I think he's maybe even more. I should know and I don't really know. Wow. I had a story in the book that I was going to tell and then I decided that it would, since I didn't have a chance to really tell the whole story of his holiness and how

that it might come off as felt in the wrong way, but it's a story I love telling because it's so, he's so real in the moment. I've never been around anybody like him. It's wiser than Dalai Lama. It's a different kind of wisdom. It's almost like it was a movie that Dudley Moore did. I think it was Dudley Moore.

Chauncey the Gardener, where he was this very simple gardener who everybody started thinking was a guru. Because he would say stuff. He'd look at the grass and he'd go, green. And they'd go, oh, my God, green. Do you know green? Green is the color also. And so there's a lot of that around him and he feels it. So he tries really hard to just be a person,

to break the wall down with the other people. So he says things that are so real. Two little incidents were we went to Trinidad. We walked in a room, and Trinidad is very unique because the cultures all get together, but they've never assimilated. So the Africans wear African traditional garb. South Americans are from Chile. You're dressing up, you're Chilean. There's no wardrobe

of Trinidad. It's your local places. So we got to the airport and there was a speaking hall at the airport. It was beautiful. It was all these different beautiful costumes. And His Holiness had his orange robes out and he goes out and you could see everybody's in that moment of

oh my God, God's just walked in the room. You know, because that's the way it always is when he walks in. It's a silence and people are like with bowing yeah yeah yeah yeah and he walked in the room he goes oh so sorry must be wrong room costume party here and nobody knew what to say they're like and he looked down at himself and he had the orange robe oh good I have my costume. Oh, the ice, yeah, yeah. Honolulu. He was doing a speech in Honolulu, and you could tell the room got really, what would you use it, you know, sort of like so overwhelmed to be in his presence. It almost was like weird.

It was like, you know. And President Obama's sister was in the audience, and she asked a question. She said to him, are you always happy? He's got 18,000 people. You can hear a pin drop. And he's sitting on a thing, and he goes, hmm. No, no, not always happy. Sometimes sit on toilet.

Hmm. Hmm. Nothing come out. Not happy. Then, hmm, come out. Oh, so happy. And the come out, oh, so happy. And the place just leveled off. He's another

human. Now let's move on. That's so funny. And that's so, nobody else could ever say that and have it be taken in the way of how beautiful it is to be able to say that. And be so honest. Just so honest. Right.

Just so honest about it. Anyway, I'm very lucky to have been in his presence. That's cool. Yeah, I had a chance to hear him speak once and got pretty close. And it was just cool to be around and interact with him. Yeah. You just feel like you had a great shower or something. Yeah, that's cool.

So great. What do you think you were born to do? What do you think you were put here for? No idea. So great. What do you think you were born to do? What do you think you were put here for? No idea. No idea. I don't even, I don't, you know, I don't, I know, my sense, although I don't know anything, my sense is I'll never find out. And when I say I, I mean I plural.

Because I singular I don't think has any, you know, you do what you do and you do the best you can do. And, um, but is there a higher purpose to it all? I have no idea. It's just hard for me to, although as I get older and I've had a couple of brushes with death, it's really hard for me to listen to my own words. Um, really hard, but I've've always said I'm trying to comfort people because sadly I've had a lot of death. I think we all do as we get older in our circles. And I've always tried to comfort people by saying

somebody had to create this thing. It's crazy, right? Somebody had to. Somehow, somewhere, somebody, somehow. There's too many pieces that fit together for it to be random. Just in our own bodies, how many hundreds of things have to work perfectly. So somebody, somewhere. So that thing, person, entity, energy, whatever that thing is that thought of all this stuff,

the only thing he gave us all was birth and death. what energy, whatever that thing is that thought of all this stuff. The only thing he gave us all was birth and death. In between, there's people with one leg, people with two legs, people who can talk, people who are white, people black, people yellow, people who live for three hours, people who live for 100 years. There's every possibility in the world. No two people are exactly alike, even twins. But the one thing, the one gift, so then it gets back to, do you think the guy that created this is the biggest scumbag in the world? In which case, death is the worst thing that could happen because that's the only thing he gave us. And how can you think that?

So you have to think that since it's the only two things he gave us and this journey is pretty hard, maybe that's our payoff, which is a great way for me to try and rationalize it for people until I almost died. What did you almost die? I almost died. I had a stomach thing, a surgery that I flatlined twice on it. I didn't know about it. I mean, it was all fine. But when I woke up, I had that moment of like, wow.

And holy shit, I don't know if I really meant what I said. It's pretty scary. Wow. Did your perspective on life change after that moment or experience? It did for a couple of days. I felt really sorry for myself. That's why I said yes to the movie. Mike had been trying to make the movie for about 10 years.

And he called me in the hospital. And he said, okay, now. Now's the time. Before it's too late. And I was so drugged up and real and really feeling sorry for myself i don't usually i mean i have moments where i'll feel sorry i think we all have moments where we question ourself we feel sorry what's it all about what am i really doing is this is this what i was put here for is this you know but for me they last seconds but this was like a day or two in a hospital room of realizing, wow, I'm dug in this hole pretty deep.

I got to get out of this thing. Sure. But it is weird when you face mortality that close. And although we're all alone anyway i was particularly alone yeah um and uh so it really started to get me to feel you know really sorry for myself like what have you done with your life you had so many opportunities to do better stuff why did you make the choices you made and you just go through all i think every human goes through those things yeah who do you feel shaped your mindset the most growing up?

Growing up, I wouldn't say anyone. I was very unconscious, I would say, until I got to college. When I got to college, I'd say the first real strong influence on my life with two, one was Kennedy, more in his death than in his career, was a real changing moment for me.

And Marshall McLuhan up in Toronto, who was a lecturer, who talked about the medium is the message, and really gave me my first inkling of, you know, it's really about the message is getting it done. It's really about the message is getting it done. And then as I got older, Joseph Campbell became a real influence. And then I got very lucky and met a chef by the name of Roger Verge. And that was really my first, I felt like I was his grasshopper from Kung Fu. That was the first time that I had a real desire to explore someone else's life to see what I could find that could make mine happier and better.

I was starting to feel at risk. I was living in L.A. I was very, very successful. Lots of jewelry, a lot of coke going up my nose very successful. Lots of jewelry. A lot of coke going up my nose. Revolving door of women. Had a hot nightclub here. White

Rolls-Royce I was driving. All of which is good stuff. But I was doing it as badges rather than as real desire. It was a part of me hating myself for doing it

but really doing it and chasing it. I got to Cannes, won the Cannes Film Festival. I had all those medals. Achievements. You'd cross everything off of this. All those kind of things. This guy walked in the room

and sort of like the Dalai Lama, just this white pool of beautiful energy, smiling. Obviously, the power person in the room, James Coburn, jumped up and hugged him. And Anthony Quinn went over to him. Pavarotti. So obviously, and I've always been attracted to power. As I said, I'm a little bit of a groupie. So that was really interesting to me that

here is this white knight in the midst of all these people smoking cigarettes and their knees jumping up and down and looking at other tables, which is exactly what I was doing. And he was focused on his moment and happy and a powerful guy. I said, ooh, how'd this guy get there? And I stayed when the restaurant closed, and he was very gracious and allowed me into his life, which I was in. Actually, I'm on my way to New York to do a beautiful dinner.

He passed away a few years ago, and we're establishing a Roger Verger scholarship at the Culinary Institute on Monday night with 12 of his sous chefs, Daniel Ballou, and a lot of great chefs. So I'm really happy about it. Anyway. What did he teach you, or what did you learn about him? It wasn't like one, two, three, four, five. Right. But being around him, I saw that what seemed to bring him the biggest joy of all was service in all forms. His manifested in that night at the dining room table.

But I saw the way he dealt with the farmers and the way he dealt with the staff and the way he dealt with my friends and the way he dealt with this. and the way he dealt with my friends and the way he dealt with this. Just he put everything before him, but not in a condescending way, not in the most high-spirited, conscious way I had ever seen. And I remember saying to him, one of our first meals, we had eaten maybe in four or five restaurants at this point, and the meal wasn't very good and I ate half of my plate

and he finished the plate. I said to myself, I said, that's really interesting. I wonder, is my taste that far off? And when we left, I said to him, Mr. Verge, did you think that was really good? And he said, oh, chef, it was terrible. And I said, well, why did you finish my plate? And he said, oh, chef, it was terrible. And I said, well, why did you finish my plate?

And he said, no, chef, the chef will be waiting at the door to watch the plates from our table coming back. I'm Roger Verge. He's wanted me in his restaurant for years. He will be standing there. I cannot send back anything on the plate and ruin his night. Oh, my gosh. And he finished your plate.

And for the rest of my time with him, did that. I remember I got served in Lyon. After that, I ate every meal until we got to Lyon, which was about two and a half years later. And we went to a restaurant called Lyon de Lyon. And they served me a pig's face. The ears, the nose, the lips. No. And I looked at him and I said, I can't even stay at the table.

I don't know if he finished it or not. Oh, my gosh. But I love that thought. It was such a beautiful thought, such a beautiful way to go through life, to really think about, through life to really think about, you know, not you in this moment, but how is you in this moment affecting the circle of life around you and how easy it is for him to finish that plate and make the guy happy. It was nothing. Right.

You know, one extra burp. Right, exactly. That's powerful. And that's what made him happy. So that just, you know, I was lucky enough to be around him and experience it. And slowly, sort of like osmosis, it moved into my way of life. And I found myself expressing my passion for life through my dinner parties, which is what he did. Except he did it in a restaurant.

A really direct way of service and really feeling good about yourself. I love when someone tells me what they like and what they don't like. That's what Mr. Verger used to always say to me. Oh, chef, I am so happy when a guest tells me what they like because then I know how to make them happy. That's what he's there for. Sure. So you started doing dinner parties after that?

Yeah, after they outbid. When I met him, I was a macaroni and ketchup kind of guy. Cerely frozen cheesecake. Sure. I couldn't care less about food. Nathan taught dogs, which I still love. I couldn't care less at all about food. And through my respect and

love of him, came to really appreciate the culinary artists. And so much like a show, you know, they have to give you their hits. Like if you go to Spago and they don't have a pizza, you get really mad. If you go to an

Alice Cooper concert and he doesn't do schools out, you get really mad. If you go to an Alice Cooper concert and he doesn't do schools out, you get really mad. So as an artist, you are so bored. How many times Alice has played schools out? Thousands. How many times Wolfgang has made a pizza? Oh my god. It's not fun for him or creative, but

it makes everyone happy. Makes people happy. But at the same time, whether you have a restaurant or a show, you have to put new stuff in. Yeah. You have to. You have to create new things. You have to create a new recipe. You have to create a new song.

Every couple of years, you have to renovate the look of what your show is. Every couple of years, you've got to renovate the look of what your dining space is. You wear your dungarees. You go to the market. Alice wears her dungarees. You go shopping. You walk into the hall. Alice puts on his costume. The chef puts on his whites. He's backstage. Alice says, no, you got to do, don't forget, hits the stage. Right. The chef is back there going, get the ham. Walks through the door to say hello to someone.

Yeah. I mean, it really is. Same thing pretty much. You know, when you go through the rhythm of it, you get far enough away to look at it. Yeah. And in the food world, you get the opportunity to one-on-one really service people, which you never get in the entertainment world.

You can't customize your show. So as an artist, if someone tells you what they like and you can customize their experience that evening and make them happier. If you like asking everybody in the audience, give me a list of the songs you want to hear and doing 20,000 different set lists. Wow.

I got lucky to get included in that. That's cool. What about your parents? Who was more influential? My dad. I always thought my mom. I think the book probably taught me on a personal level your parents who was more influential my dad i always thought my mom it was i think that's the book probably taught me as on a personal level that was my biggest takeaway and and my greatest

joy in doing the book was i always thought that my mother was a very difficult lady and i always thought i sort of lived under her cloud and a lot of the stuff i did in my life was guided by that proving to her that I was good and you know doing all that stuff and when I I read Norman Lear's book which I highly recommend to anybody out here anything they can ever do that has Norman Lear's name on it go for it which book is this he did about autobiography okay and he talked about his relationship with his father and that got me to start thinking about my father, who I never, all I ever would think about was I loved him. Really kind. But I always thought of my mother as, you know, when I try and think of like, okay, how come I'm 60 and not married?

Well, because I didn't like my mother. You know, I'd go to all, when you're looking for answers for the big stuff in your life, I would go there. And what I realized by writing the book was that I'm actually living out my father's life exactly because he was a man of complete service. He had nothing else in, he went to work and he took care of his family and he gave up everything else in his life. We'd go play golf once a month. That's about the only joy he had. Really?

Yeah. But of service to us. It was a life of complete 100% service. Did that make him happy? Made him really happy, yeah. Made him on a level, you know, and happy he could enjoy. But I never knew until he sort of passed away and I went through his stuff, the life he had before I knew him. I knew him only as a guy who left for work early in the

morning, came home late at night, sat in front of the TV, hugged me. We laughed a little bit, went to sleep, worked seven days a week. And I never saw friends never and then I found all this stuff he had these great business cards made up of four guys he was a handball champion which I never knew he was a golf pro which I never knew he worked at a brewery

he had a house on Staten Island where there was always kegs of beer open and these four guys gave out business cards that said Ben Stan, I forgot the other guy's name, available for parties for single girls. That's funny. Which is really funny. I have it hanging up in my house. So I never really – I never put all the pieces together.

And when I started to write the book and started to think about the moments with him and the choices he made oh my god he gave up everything that was dear to him in his life to provide for me in this never saying it to me never ever once said to me what i gave up never ever once said to me i'd like you know i'd love to go out with the guys and have a beer um never once laid it on me ever to such an extent that i didn't even know it existed. Wow. Pretty wild. What was the big lesson you learned from him then? Lesson was service makes you

happy. He was a pretty happy guy in a world where he had nothing except service. That's really all he had. He had 20 heart attacks. It was at a time when they didn't do bypasses and stuff. You'd put under your lip a little nitro capsule so he had, you know, he just, but he was, I'm very lucky to have had him as a dad, really. I

wish I had appreciated him as much when he was living. Isn't that funny with us? Yeah. It seems like most people don't appreciate our parents, right? I did. I would say, by the last few years of his life, I started to really try and – I brought Raquel Welsh to his retirement home, which made him king of the pool. He said he never had to wait for pool ever again. That's hilarious. After that day.

He could use that weight online. Sure, sure. I gave him a Hawaiian Tropic hat. He was very – That's funny. That's amazing. Shep, what would you say is missing in your life right now? I mean, you've had so many great

adventures. You have so many great relationships. Yeah, I would say probably... I don't feel a huge need of... I would love to be in a relationship. I've been seeing somebody in New York who I really like, but it's difficult and it's a long way away. And there's complications, but she's great. And I'm very lucky that three of the kids that I raised have come back to Maui.

So in the last year or so, I've started to get a sense of family back there again. You adopted? Is that right? Yeah. I never actually adopted because it happened during the Clinton era. And I was never a person who collected a lot of resources. I wasn't an accumulator. Yeah. And they were very young. The baby was a couple of months old.

And in those days, the government provided this amazing safety net. They were Afro-American kids, unknown fathers, mother dead, and the government provided an amazing safety net of education, of health benefits, of rent payments. We didn't use it. I supported them and we never took advantage of it, but I always felt that once I adopted them, I supported them and we never took advantage of it. But I always felt that once I adopted them, if I ran out of money, they couldn't go back to that safety net. And the only difference between adoption and not adoption was I couldn't take off my taxes, the money that I used to support them. And I felt I could get through that because I would spend my money anyway.

But going by nose or go. It would be much better. But that was 25 years ago. So it's been pretty wild. That is another generation. We're just all in Hawaii. It was beautiful. Nine of us. It was really great.

That's cool. And I hear you're also terrified of public speaking. Is that true? Yeah, I don't like public speaking. I really enjoy stuff like this. And I enjoy public interviewing. I found that I really... So it's interviewing on stage. Yeah, I love that. I thought I would hate it and I just

love it. Because I listen to myself the same time I'm saying it. I'll laugh at my own jokes. I don't prepare anything. It's been really enjoyable for me. When I'm public speaking, every self-worth issue I have comes to the forefront.

I think that's for 99% of people. And I just don't want to deal with it. I don't see the advantage to dealing with it. It's stressful. It's stressful. It can be stressful. It's not as if I have to do it to earn my living. And I don't feel that I – I feel my speeches are much more entertainment than something – than like surgery, which you need. So if it freaks me out, I deal with it.

And I enjoy the others so much. Really look forward to it. That's cool. What is one thing that you're really proud of that maybe a lot of people don't know about you? Something you've done or? I would say the, I mean, I'm really blessed in that I try and live my life from when I wake up in the morning to when I go to sleep at night doing stuff I can be proud of. It's an important part of my equation. It's a filter I try and put everything through.

But I think, you know, living on Maui, which I love, Maui is just giving me so much. I can never repay Maui ever for the blessings it's given me and for embracing me the way it does. And

a few years ago I tripped over how many people can't afford to eat. The food bank feeds 10,000 people a week. In Maui? In Maui, which has a population of 100,000. 7,000 of whom work. 3,000 work two jobs. It's expensive.

It's expensive in Maui. It's really expensive. All of Hawaii, it's expensive.'s expensive it's really all hawaii so i went around to a bunch of my friends um alice cooper who comes every year for christmas and steve tyler who has a house there mcfleet widow has a house there sammy hagar has a house there mike mcdonald has a house there patch simmons has a house there. We have a lot of entertainment people. Willie Nelson. All near you are kind of the same. Yeah, it's a small island, so everybody sort of knows each other. It's a very embracing island. You know, you still don't lock your doors in Maui. It's really special.

And I explained the problem, and I said, I think we're all so blessed. I used to do a New Year's party where everybody came for free for years, you know, two, three hundred people. And I said, why don't we start doing charging people and let's all play and let's... And last year we provided 305,000 meals. Wow. For the food bank.

That is cool. People like Sarah McLaughlin heard about it and came and played. Amazing. Everybody on one little stage. There's no lights. There's no nothing. They play with each other.

We've had everybody come and do it. Dave Mason called me this morning. You doing that thing New Year's? I said, yeah. Can I play? Wow. But they all love Maui, and they realize that's a lot of people starving. Wow.

So people just come and pay to get in? Yeah. It's $600. Wow. We have a very limited guest list. I think it's 300 people. Some people make big donations. Most of the artists buy their own tickets. They buy a ticket and

play. That's cool. And then everybody plays with everybody else. We do about a two-hour show. This is Christmas Day or what is this? It's New Year's Night. We all spend New Year's together. We bring a lot of the homeless in. I'll have to buy a ticket someday. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really, really cool. We've had so of the homeless in. I'll have to buy a ticket someday. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really,

really cool. We've had so many acts. Michael Bolton, I mean, John Mayalls, everybody comes and shows up. It's been fantastic. That's awesome. Wow. Weird Al Yankovic every year. Oh, that's cool. He's a fantastic entertainer. I'm sure he is. I'm sure he is.

Final few questions for you. What's something you're most grateful for in your life recently? I would say two grandchildren are just amazing to be able to spend some time with and be around. See sort of the fruits of my labor

of trying to help out this family. Move on to a new generation. Really excited to see where those kids go to. This generation was the first of their family to go to college. I'm really excited to see where the next generation goes. That's cool. So that's really exciting to me. That's fun.

When I hear a little one go, Papa, good morning. This is called the three truths question i feel like you've had a wealth of uh information you've shared but your life is you know some people call you the most interesting man in the world uh you've got a lot of experience a lot of failures a lot of successes if it's the end of the day for you many many years from now. The book is gone. The documentary is gone for whatever reason. It's erased from time. Everyone's there. You got a piece of paper and a pen and they ask you to write down your three truths,

the three things you know to be true about everything you've learned in life that you would pass on to them as your principles, your philosophies for how to live a great life. What would you say are your three truths? I'd probably start it by saying the only thing I'm sure of is I know nothing. But realizing that I know nothing, my particular path, and maybe I fooled myself through it, was focusing on service.

I think for me, has been really important because it gives me a focus to how to deal with life's journey. So I would say service is one. Compassion. It's so easy to fault other people or to get angry at other people, especially in the times we live in today, that I think being compassionate and understanding that yours isn't the only journey is really important.

And the third one is to try and, in interactions, try and create win-win situations. You know, we're in the same species, and so many people have moved to win and lose. And I think working a little bit harder to try and win and win, make your neighbor happier and you'll be happy. So I would say those are my three. But I focus it all by saying I know absolutely nothing. And the older I get, the more sure I am that I know nothing. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I hear you. That's why I know absolutely nothing. And the older I get, the more sure I am that I know nothing. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

I hear you. That's why I'm still here. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be well-intentioned. You don't have to know stuff to be well-intentioned. Right. Those are great truths. Thanks for sharing those. Before I ask the final question, I want to make sure we mention again,

make sure you guys go pick up the book, They Call Me Super Mench, A Backstage Path to the Amazing Worlds of Film, Food, and Rock and Roll. Make sure to grab this ASAP. It's out right now. An Anthony Bourdain book, which is really cool. Where can we connect with you online? Are you on social media at all? Yeah. Anywhere?

Twitter, Instagram? I think I am. I think it's supermensch.com. Okay, cool. Okay. Or supermensch something. But you don't use social media personally yourself. You're not tweeting. You know, recently my granddaughter has gotten me into it, and Jason has sort of gotten me into it. And it's really interesting. I think I probably will become more of one.

Okay, cool. Especially as the book tour winds down and I have more time. What I have found really interesting is following the rhythm of the messages. When I first started, which was maybe five or six or seven weeks ago, almost everything was political. Almost every Facebook post was someone for Trump or against. And there'd be a personal something once in a while. Now, in the last week or ten days, when I look, it's a lot more personal stuff. Pictures of the cat.

You know, something important to someone. Right. Right. And so it's interesting. I've been reading some of the Twitter things. I never answered any of my friend requests. So I've answered probably a thousand of those. And a lot of them are old friends

which was really nice to reconnect to so that's a nice part of it. But it's been interesting. It's a whole new world and as I said to you when we started I don't want to blow your horn or anything but living in Maui as a 70-year-old guy I was starting to get really jaded

as to the next generation coming up and through this experience I've met a lot of people like you who do what you do as to the next generation coming up. And through this experience, I've met a lot of people like you who do what you do, who search for knowledge and truth. And it's so refreshing to see this generation of people. I hope you all continue doing what you're doing.

And I think it can only lead to someplace better. Yeah, I appreciate that. Really important work, really important work. And it's like an oasis in the middle of the jungle. So I'm enjoying doing all these shows because all you guys actually care about making the planet a little better. We're trying to make an impact. Yeah. No, it's fantastic.

It's really fantastic. So that's what's going to get me more curious about social media. Yeah. Because my vision of it was always uses for negative rather than positive. There's a lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that, but I just try to follow people that are inspiring and hopeful.

Yeah, no, that's great. I only see the good stuff. Well, before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Shep, for your incredible creativity, your incredible creativity and your love for humans. The journey you've had over the years is such a great example of how to be a better

human being and how we can overcome a lot of adversity from not knowing to you finally seeking answers and truth yourself to connecting with some inspiring people that you said, okay, it's of service. And that's actually the final chapter of my book is about living a life of service. It's the common thread from all the great individuals I've interviewed is that they want to live a life of service. So I appreciate your example, and I acknowledge you for the incredible human that you are. Thank you.

Yeah. And my final question is what's your definition of greatness? Greatness is happiness. You can find how to be happy without hurting other people. And everybody has a different path to it. But I think if you're happy, you can only do good stuff. You know, it starts somewhere in you. So the greatness is a tiny little thing that leads to bigger stuff.

I love it. Jeff, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Pleasure. There you have it. Thank you so, so much for spending your moments with me today. I feel so grateful and so blessed that you decided to show up.

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