The School of Greatness - 394 How to Live a Good Life with Jonathan Fields

Episode Date: October 17, 2016

"The moment that you decide that you've got it figured out is the moment you stop living." - Jonathan Fields If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/394

Episode number 394 with best-selling author Jonathan Fields. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Today I have the pleasure to introduce to you a really dear friend of mine, someone

I've known for, I believe, seven, maybe eight years now. We met back in Chicago at a blogging conference a while ago. And Jonathan is one of those guys that I'll text or I'll call whenever I'm in a bind, whenever I'm in a tough spot, either in my business or just mentally or emotionally, I'm going through a challenge. I'll send him a text or I'll give him a call and ask him his advice. He's one of those sound, wise individuals who's been through a lot, seen it all, and always seems to have incredible guided advice. For those that don't know who Jonathan Fields is, he's a New York City dad, husband, entrepreneur,

podcast host, and award-winning author. He founded a mission-driven media and education venture called Good Life Project, where he and his team lead a global community in the quest to live more meaningful, connected, and vital lives. His new book, How to Live a Good Life, Soulful Stories, Surprising Science, and Practical Wisdom offers a gateway to a life of meaning, connection, and vitality. And we got a chance to connect while both of us were speaking at a conference, World Domination Summit earlier this year. And some of the things we talked about during this interview are the three different buckets that create a good life. So if you don't

feel like you have a good life right now, there are three different buckets you need to fill up. And we talk about what those are. Also, why people are seeking belonging so deeply right now. And what happens to us when we're not connecting face to face with people, the value of choosing which metrics to focus on in your business, why you have to know yourself well in order to be fulfilled. This is a big one, guys. And the big differences between in-person relationships and digital ones. Make sure to enjoy this one. I hope you get a lot out of this.

Jonathan's been a good friend for a long time, and I know you're going to love this. Make sure to share it with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 394 and to check the full show notes and the video back on the show notes as well at episode 394. And without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Jonathan Fields. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited about our guest, Jonathan Fields, in the house. Good to see you, man. Yeah. We are in your hotel room here in Portland.

We are. And we're both at a conference called World Domination Summit with Chris Guillebeau, a friend of ours, who you actually introduced me to a few years ago. And I'm having fun, man. It's been a while since I've seen you. I know. And you're on the tail end of uh a whole bunch of traveling right now and it's been crazy but uh you've got a book coming out called how to live a good life soulful stories surprising science and practical wisdom by jonathan

fields and uh it's coming out right now so i want to make sure everyone to go pick up a copy it's an awesome book. And why this book? Why How to Live a Good Life? I actually remember talking to you when you came up with this like four years ago. I think this whole brand with first a video series, a website, camp, events, now the book. Why did you want to go into this direction where before you were, um, doing some other work? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's sort of like this, this evolution where, so the book I wrote before this has been almost five years since I had a

book out and that book was called uncertainty and it, it won a fairly prestigious, dude. Yeah. It's like that long ago. So it, so it came out, it was It was like that long ago. Wow, crazy. So it came out. I was proud of it. It did well. And it won this interesting award from 800 CEO Read, which was – it was named the best personal development book of the year that came out. And I had this really weird response to it because on the one hand, I'm like, this is awesome. It's a really nice honor. And on the other hand, I'm like, I'm not a personal development guy.

Right. I'm about entrepreneurship and all this stuff. And it's interesting because I had this conversation with a couple of people who know me really well and they're like, no, but you are that person. And you need to actually start stepping into it and owning the fact that fundamentally what you are about is exploring and examining human potential, like how we actually live on the planet and get a lot of good stuff out of our time here. And what I've come to realize over those probably four years or so is that I am deeply fascinated in entrepreneurship and the world of business building. And, but, um, and this is kind of a more recent sort of realization for me is that my deeper interest is in how like entrepreneurship, for example, it's really cool to help people bring things to life.

I know you do a lot of this too, right? But what's actually even more interesting to me is how the process of entrepreneurship, the gauntlet of entrepreneurship changes the entrepreneur. It's this amazing canvas for the development of human potential. And what I start to realize about myself is that that's actually probably the deeper fascination for me and i've kind of been saying well you know couching it in terms of entrepreneurship and business because it's like it's a way that i feel like i can legitimize myself yeah um rather than just saying actually fundamentally i'm about exploring deeply the human condition and how we live better in the world. I'm like, you know what? At a certain time, you just got to step into who you are. So

I'm not walking away from that side of myself, but it was kind of like it's time to stand in the fact that this is actually an essential part of who I am. And we've been, you know, so Good Life Project emerged as not just a media company, but it was an attempt for me to go out and find these teachers who embodied elements of really living a good life and then sit down with them and learn from them. So over the years, it's similar to what you do, right? With sort of like people around performance and expertise and mastery. For me, it was like this broader exploration of what are the pieces of the puzzle. And it was kind of like it was like this broader exploration of what are the pieces of the puzzle. Um, and, and it was really, it was kind of like, it was time, you know? Well, I mean, it was a 15 years ago. You opened a yoga studio, right?

Yeah. It was the day before or day after 2001. I signed the lease for a floor in a building in New York city. Um, the day before nine 11. Crazy. floor in a building in New York City the day before 9-11. Oh, crazy. Yeah. I mean, married, had a new home, three-month-old baby. And I committed to literally like a six-year lease for a floor in a building in Hell's Kitchen in New York City. And I woke up the next morning.

Before 9-11, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Literally the day before 9-11. Life is good. Everything's smooth in New York. Right. I'm about to do this incredible thing, right?

And build what I hope would be sort of the premier yoga center. Before yoga was getting super popular. Yeah. This was like, you know, there were nuggets of it, and there were definitely a handful of great studios around the city. But I wanted to sort of take things to a different level. I came out of the world of business before that. So I was looking at this from a different lens. This was pre-Lululemon.

Yeah. And it's like prime, pre-ululemon. Yeah. None of that stuff existed. Yoga works. Yeah. What I knew was back then, most people – I had been practicing yoga and I knew that it could make a really big difference. But you ask your average person who came from my background in the middle years, unfit, sedentary, unflexible, and kind of hesitant about all things woo-woo to go to like the average yoga studio that was around then. And, you know, so you take like a 40-something-year-old dude who walks in like, okay, step number one, take off your shoes. Step number two, you know, sort of like get –

It's in prayer mode or something. Right. And you're very often surrounded by incense, you know, so it's a little bit weird. And then there'd be a whole bunch of chanting and dharma talk in class. And it was terrifying for a lot of people. And I came to love that myself, but I also knew that it pushed away so many people. So the idea with that was like, can we preserve the power of the practice and build a community and a company that lowered barriers to participation so that anybody could

walk in the doors and actually feel really like like i'm okay here i mean and we went to the level of even you know a lot of our students are women and still in the yoga world that the vast majority of people who practice and go to studios are women and i know that women tend to suffer a much higher level of scent triggered migraines so one of the things we did was actually we didn't have incense because I want to even like on those, like any, any way I could remove a barrier to somebody coming, you know, we went there, but that was kind of like my first foray into business meets lifestyle slash movements last or like my, my, that deeper interest in like, how do we develop the person?

How do we develop a better life? Yeah. How do we have a good life? Or, you know and you did that at the perfect time it sounds like but not 11 right well yeah i mean yes yes and no like looking back yeah i mean you know i woke up the next morning like everybody else who's a you know long time new yorker i was horrified and and you know we lost somebody that day as well um and uh but there was a moment that happened after that where, you know, so we literally, and I remember this so clearly.

My wife, me, and a three-month-old baby, a little car seat, jumped in a car, drove up to the house of the person who we knew was actually working on the top floor of one of the towers. And we're all kind of like, you know, holding vigil at his wife's house. It was also a friend of ours and a whole bunch of people. At the end of that day, you know, nobody really knew what was going to happen, who was going to come home. Everybody left. And it was just, uh, my wife, my kid and her and, and, um, and they went up to put one of the kids to sleep. They had two little kids and I'm a two and a half year old. And they asked me if I would go upstairs and read to the two and a half year old. And I can remember walking up the stairs and just opening the kid's door. And here's this two and a half year old boy sitting in bed, you know, like half tucked with a book on his lap, you know,

and in the back of my mind, I'm starting to get the idea that his dad has never come at home. And like my job just that night is just to spend a few minutes like reading this way. He has no idea who I am. Right. To just try and make something somewhat okay for this like few moments before he goes to bed that night. Wow. Knowing that the rest of his life was going to be really different. And driving home from there, I was like, you know, I have a decision to make. You know, this is a terrifying time. Am I going to launch a business into a sea of pain?

And, you know, potentially put my family at risk. But the flip side was, man, my friend didn't go to work that morning expecting not to come home. We got one pass through. And if I was going to do it, the city was never more in need of a business that was built around a community that was built around healing. So we went forward with it. And eight weeks later, we opened this thing.

And I had to change a lot of the way that we opened and launched just to be super respectful. But flourished really, really quickly because we were serving this really deep need. And it was an amazing, amazing window in time to be in New York City serving a deep and profound healing need. When people are literally wandering around, and a day is just trying to find people to be with where they could just find a little bit of stillness, a little bit of solace.

So yeah, that was sort of like one of the, it's probably very likely, you could probably trace the beginnings of this book back to right around that moment. What were you doing before that? I was a lawyer in a past life. Crazy, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I came out of law school. I was the entrepreneur, like I was a lemonade stand kid, right? Like you were the athlete. I was a lemonade stand kid. And, uh, but I made like this kind of like left turn and ended up going to law school. I was really fortunate, did well in law school and had some great opportunity

coming out. So I was in a big firm, you know in new york city you know great job the power job where you're wearing fancy suits doing huge deals doing like mergers and acquisitions and security and um but even in that job there was a moment where i barely slept and barely came home for three weeks and i ended up in emergency surgery because i literally, my immune system basically cratered and an infection, huge infection brewed in the middle of my body and ate a hole through my intestines from the outside in. Wow. Sent me into surgery.

I came out, knock on wood, everything was fine. But when your body rejects your career, at some point, it's like- You got to make a change. Yeah. You got to listen. Did you change pretty quickly or did you- It took me, I probably made the decision then. Like I knew at that moment in time, I was like, all right, this is killing me.

It's not working. Right. I stopped doing all the stuff that kept me okay. Like my practice, my exercise, all the stuff I love, I wasn't doing at all. And at the same time, I looked down the road and this was probably the bigger thing. I was like, okay, all the people that have the job that supposedly I'm working towards, do I want that? Like if I look at their lives, do I want to live that life?

Yeah. And the answer was no. It was like a crystal clear no. And that was a moment where I was like, all right, there's – if I truly love this path and I have friends that do and are still in it, I would be like, all right, I'll figure out how to be okay and work this hard. But I didn't. So that was a moment where I was like, all right, I'm on my way out.

But even then, it took me the better part of a year to take that journey out because I had a lot invested in my journey to date, and I had to kind of figure my next step. But my next step was making $12 an hour as a personal trainer. Really? Yeah. So personal trainer before yoga. Yeah.

So the first step out, because I reconnected. I trained as a gymnast for the first half of my life competitively. And I love movement and exercise. Yeah. And I looked at- Still do a backflip? No. On a trampoline?

You probably can. Can you? Yeah. Yeah, I figured, right? I'm like a springboard. Yeah. But I was, I wanted to, I wanted to go back and connect with that. And, you know, you want to go back and connect with that.

And, you know, you blend entrepreneurship with fitness and movement. And, um, and I want to, and I looked at the fitness industry and I started reading a lot of the data and started getting into like the industry research. And, you know, truth is it's relatively disastrous when you really understand the business model. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's an industry that we're 80 to 85% of adults in the US won't join or stay members of clubs and billions of dollars of marketing have been thrown at it over the years. And part of the challenge is because the fundamental model is designed in a way which maximizes revenue per square foot rather than actually serves the outcome driven and sort of like social needs of the people who are in the facility. So my goal was like, let me figure out a better mousetrap.

Let me figure out where the breaks are. So that's why I didn't want to start in management. I started as a personal trainer making 12 bucks an hour because I want to know what's happening. Understand it. Yeah. On the most basic level, like where the breakdowns, what's working, what's not. Then shortly after I opened my first facility, which is like a smallest, like 5,000 square

foot high end training center. And yeah, I don't even know if which is like a smallest, like 5,000 square foot high-end training center. And yeah, I don't even know if you know this part of the story. Yeah, we grew that. Like a one-on-one personal training center. Yeah, so we grew that after about two and a half years. Sold my stake in that company. I had a partner in it, too, an investor group. But we were doing, in pretty short order, we were surrounded by like two

massive gyms on either side and we were crushing them from like a training revenue standpoint. In a month, we were doing more than the average big box gym was doing in a year in terms of training revenue and stuff like that. And it was largely because my whole goal was just like, how do I serve and delight on a profound level? And how do I really understand the psychology of what people need to get out of this? And a lot of it was built around community and deliverable outcomes rather than just locking people into long-term commitments. Right. The result, focusing on the results.

Yeah. Focusing on how to live a better life. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that emerged really quickly is this idea that um we are like beasts that have to belong and you know when you walk into a lot you know so where do you find belonging these days it used to be at work but a lot of people don't find it there it used to be in faith-based organizations a lot of people are running from those places right local trade organizations and leagues a lot of those things

are going away now so a lot of people are are walking around in deep pain because we literally have to belong to survive. But the places we used to find that belonging are going away fast or they're just not providing it anymore. So I somehow understood early on that part of what we needed to do was solve for fitness, but part of what we needed to do was solve for belonging, for connection. And so we built fierce communities. And that alone was a game changer for people. And that's a lot of what I've still continued to sort of explore. I mean, it's like what you're doing with School of Greatness, right? You're not just, this isn't just a podcast.

I mean, you've got a global community here that's like profoundly connected. And it's a huge part of why you're, you're just exploding because you're, you're building something bigger. Right. Now, how did you build community into a fitness gym or fitness studio? Yeah.

So, I mean, obviously people are coming and going. Right. But so it, like on a couple of different levels, one, and we really established,

like I focused on culture. I was like, what are we about? You know, like this is what we believe, you know? And, and so from the most fundamental touch points, and it's like, here's our guiding philosophy. And it's like community matters. People really matter. We're about cultivating relationships as much as we are about improving somebody's fitness or helping them lose weight or improve their cardiac risk disease. So,

so from there, then you start to build policies around it. So like when somebody – really simple example that makes a really big difference. When we had the yoga center in New York City, at some point, we started to computerize all the front desk stuff and we gained the ability to actually give everybody little key tag swipes so they could swipe in and just like boom, just use your swipe and go into class. Nobody would have to talk to anybody at the front desk. I literally ordered a box of those. I had the system set up and ready to go.

When they came, I was like, this is against what I stand for because what it's going to do, it's going to remove that one human touch point where somebody says, you know, like, hey, Lewis, it's so awesome to see you again today. Can I check you into class? And most people think that's a tiny little thing, but it's actually huge because it makes somebody feel like, like they actually know me. Like this is actually, yeah, this is a community. Like I belong, you know, it's like, it was interesting. So I know you're tuned into this because when we walked out last night to grab a, to grab a green drink, we walked out the door and the guy who opened the door you're like hey carlos what's up man can i ask you a question you notice stuff like this and you care about it you know and i think

it's everybody does but um you're keyed into it in a way that i think the need to actually like identify and connect with people yeah most of us are disconnected from that we just walk around in pain and we don't understand that a big part of that pain is actually coming from the fact that we feel isolated, even if we're surrounded by people. Yeah, especially more and more with social media, our phones and everything. I think the key to success is relationships. And the key to successful relationships is intimacy and being vulnerable or connecting with those people, not just saying, I have a social media friend, but connecting.

So I like that. And, you know, it's interesting that you remove that element, such a small thing that people would think that would be more convenient for people is actually what pushes them away from you probably even more. Yeah. And it did. Like it made the process less efficient. Yeah.

No doubt about it. There's people backing up. Yeah. You had no doubt about it. But at the same time, it made it more human. and that's like for me it's like you choose your metrics you know was my metric going to be efficiency or was my metric going to be elevating community and humanity you know and i had there was a clear answer you know it's like um every recent conversation probably a couple years ago now with seth godin who we both know and um and

we were talking about scaling. He's like, I got one metric, trust. All I care about is scaling trust. It's like people focus on likes or money or this or that. He's like, I want to scale trust. So much of it comes down to what are the metrics that we want to focus on and then build around it. For me, it was human connection.

That is just so important. That's cool. Well, in the book, you talk about three buckets to how to live a good life. What are the buckets? And connection is, community or connection is one of them. Yeah, yeah. So, and I want to just like create, there are so many, it's funny, like for me to write a book called How to Live a Good Life, you know, except who am I?

Yeah, sure. You know, it's like thousands of years of philosophers and great sages and thinkers. But what I realized is that all I have are my stories and my lens. And the question for me was, if we've known everything there is to know for thousands of years, why are we still not okay in the world? Why are we hurting? Yeah. And I think a big part of it is because it's the models.

It's the way that, that what we know is conveyed. It's not conveyed in a way which is like really simple, straightforward. You hear it once, you remember it.

And the other thing is it's so simple that it's, it's almost impossible not to act upon it. Like it's got to be actionable in somebody's lives who's a grown up,

who's busy. Like you can't ask somebody to just constantly blow up their lives and walk away from everything because your average person in the middle years isn't going to do that. They would rather live the rest of their lives miserable than suffer the pain of blowing it up and starting over. the truth on the ground. So I wanted to just create a really simple model where somebody would hear it once. They're like, yeah, that makes sense. And they would understand every day how to do a little something so that over time, it wasn't about big disruptive moves. It's like, there's a little something I can do today and then tomorrow and then tomorrow. Then over a couple of weeks or months, you're kind of like, stuff is actually better. And I didn't even really have to try. So the idea of the buckets was, look, life is fundamentally about filling three buckets. Connection, we've talked about,

love and belonging, your relationship, right? Between other people, friends, lovers, family, colleagues, source, you know, if that's something which is meaningful to you, the natural environment or the physical setting you're in. So that's connection is one bucket. Second bucket is vitality. It's the state of your mind and body. And to me, to actually try and explain those as two different things is just ludicrous. You know, mind and body are 100% one universal feedback mechanism. You can't work with one without affecting the other. So it's optimizing around a lot of mind and body, which you kind of become a master at.

And then the third one is what I call contribution. And that's really about how are you bringing your gifts to the world? You know, are you moving into the world in a way where there's meaning and a sense of purpose, where you feel lit up, where you feel like you know your strengths and your values and your beliefs, and you are 100% stepping into them every day with what you do. And when you lay your head on the pillow at night, you're like, yeah, like that. I feel good about how I spent my time on the planet. Meaningful work. Yeah. Yeah. Contributing and living in service. You know, one of the, I think Tony Robbins said that the key to fulfillment is growth and contribution. Yeah. If you want to feel fulfilled, you need to be doing one of those two

things, if not both of them. You need to be growing, learning, you know, in your own personal life, but then also serving other people. It could be your family, your community, the world. It could I want to say it was like a year or two back now. And, and it was kind of asked me, I can't remember the exact question. It's like, do you feel like you're leveraging, like you, you're actually accessing your full potential? And we had a whole bunch of different things that were potential pain points for people. And the number one pain point was a feeling of, I know that I have so much more, but I can't figure out how to close the gap between the potential that I'm leveraging every day and the potential that I know deep down I have. Like I can't figure out how to close that gap. And a lot of it has to do with self-ignorance, with just not knowing yourself well enough to understand what matters to you. Like what do you actually believe matters

in this world? Because you, cause you can't be intentional. You can't wake up in the morning and do what matters. If you don't know yourself well enough to understand what matters to you, you don't know yourself well enough to understand, like, what are your actual strengths? Like, what do you believe in the world? You know? So how can you decide to do more of that if you don't actually know what it is? So how do you find out what you believe? And what if your beliefs change? When you learn new things, you're like, oh, what I thought I lived in this religion my whole life and I realized that stuff is not what I believe anymore.

There are certain things, my whole life's a lie now, whatever, I don't know. Yeah, and it's sort of like this interesting split, right? There are certain things which you probably consider more on the level of a trait. It kind of is what it is. It's like you're a tall dude. You're going to be a tall dude your whole life.

You've got a certain color of eyes. But there are also certain internal traits. And so things like strengths where there's been a ton of research and exploration around them. Increasingly, a lot of people would now argue in the research world that you kind of have, you know, your strengths. And you can definitely help build strengths, but they're relatively stable, you know, over the period of your life. You know, so it's really important to understand that. And there are great short and fast assessments that you can use to actually figure that out

these days. And then say, okay, I want to leverage these as much as I can, like when I'm out there doing my work in the world. Beliefs is the other thing. Those change, right? I mean, my belief system now is profoundly different than it was 10 years ago and 10 years before that. What I believe matters to me.

What I believe is about what's possible and what's not possible is hugely different. You can change beliefs. You can snap beliefs. You can snap beliefs. You can change them in a heartbeat. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing if our beliefs change every 10 years or whatever? I think it's an awesome thing. I think the moment that you lock yourself into certainty about your beliefs is the moment that you stop growing, is the moment where you – Milton Glaser had this amazing conversation with who's the most iconic living designer.

And at one point, I mean, he has designed some of the most incredible things on the planet. You may not know his name, but you know something that he's created. And he said to me, like, certainty is a closing of the mind. The moment you are certain, the moment like you lock down the possibility that something might be different or you might believe differently in the future is the moment that you stop asking questions. It's the moment where curiosity ends. It's the moment where the uncertainty that's necessary for possibility to emerge in your life vanishes. Because if you're certain about something, then you stop exploring anything beyond that, right? And the moment you stop exploring, there's no possibility in your life anymore.

Your life starts going sideways, man. I don't know about you or like your listeners. I'm pretty sure about you. I'm pretty sure probably about your listeners too, but I'm not here to go sideways. Yeah. You know,

what if your beliefs are already pretty solid for like, yeah, you've got really solid beliefs. Yeah. It, it's so part of what, why change them? You know,

if already living a good life with these beliefs. Well, so, but that's the second part of the, of like what you were just saying is a really thing, right? So if you are indeed living a good life with your beliefs, no reason to change them. Right. But the question you got to ask is like when somebody is like, well, this is what I believe. I believe in a pretty sure I'm right. And it's all good. And it's given me the life that I have. You know, the next question is, well, how's that working for you? Right. Like, are you actually sitting here living a good life?

Yeah. Like, do you have these beautiful, deep and enduring relationships? Are you doing meaningful work where you feel like you're fully leveraging, utilizing the world? Are you connected to source and people? Or is your body like, are you vibrant?

Like, are you radiating health? Because if somebody says, I'm locked into my beliefs and they're good, they're viable, solid beliefs, and that's how I live my life according to those beliefs. And you can point to major places in their lives that are relatively disastrous. Something's not working. Yeah. something's got something's not working yeah you know so part of the process i think sometimes with if you have that conversation with somebody is literally ask them you know not from like an arrogant little house that working standpoint but just like how's that actually working for you

like that's that's cool like if you have these beliefs and they've been with you for life and you feel like you're actually really living the life that you're you want to live and you're meant to live go for it keep them right but if you're not something's want to live and you're meant to live, go for it. Keep them. But if you're not, something's got to change. So, I mean, it's like I say in the book, I'm not asking for anybody to buy into anything. The only thing that I ask anybody for is to be open to the possibility that there might be another story, another truth, something else that they can do out there that might allow them to be better in the world.

And then try it. And I'm not a huge fan of just like leaning into what anybody tells you on pure faith. Run an experiment, man. You know, let your personal experience tell you whether your belief is still valid or whether something's got to change. Right. You talk about how to fill the buckets up, right? You go through each chapter and how to fill them up. How does someone fill up the connection and the community bucket right now with this overwhelming amount of I need to generate more following on social media and constantly on their phones? How does someone get away from that when it's the source of their business? Yeah. It's a digital connection, you know? Yeah. It's such an interesting question.

We're moving from just hanging out like this, like we are now, to always having a screen between us nonstop. And on the one hand, it's not a bad thing because a lot of really great relationships can start digitally. Absolutely. For me, too, yeah. Yeah. But the relationship never really happens to me on the level that it can happen until I'm in a room with somebody. Absolutely. For me too. Yeah. is that there's really interesting research that's been done, Sherry Turkle out of MIT and some other people, is that it removes empathy from the conversation. And so we stop actually having empathy with somebody else.

It creates a level of not just anonymity, but like – so a lot of conversation happens in the digital space, and it's what they call asynchronous, meaning it's not just – we're not just talking and we can look at each other and the conversation happens in real time. It's like you get a text or somebody snaps or whatever it is and you got to respond to it. And you're thinking – you actually take a couple of seconds to think about how am I going to formulate – what should I say, right? And when you do that, you're always going to present sort of cleaner, better version of yourself when you do that. And the problem is it removes those moments of real-time vulnerability. And like those just mini snapshots of vulnerability of like your dorkiness or geekiness or whatever it is that really makes you you, when those leave the conversation, those are the most profound. Those are the moments where you connect on a level that blows apart the shiny, happy self that you tend to show other people when there's a screen in between them. What's kind of interesting about Snapchat to me is that it's almost become a step

back into that place of being totally vulnerable. I think maybe because a lot of people know it goes away. Right. So when I look at, you know, like the way that my daughter uses Snapchat, like her and her friends, like they're, you know,

like sharing all sorts of like crazy, silly, like dopey pictures, like hyper vulnerable. Yeah. Bad angle, whatever. Yeah.

Right. And, and that's kind of like become the ethos on that particular platform. Whereas, but almost every other one, it's all, it's almost always, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that kind of kills your ability to connect on that deeper level where it's like, I'm struggling today, man, or I'm a bit of a weirdo, or I'm different than you

in this way, or like, I just made a mistake. You know, those are the moments where the most profound relationships take root, you know, even on a even on a personal level, like one-to-one with a partner in life. If the conversation always stays at the level, it's like, well, tell me about the good stuff that happened to you today. Right. And tell me about the bad stuff too, but tell me in a good way. Yeah, right. I don't want any of the mess. That's not a relationship.

So when you allow for that stuff to happen that's where the really juicy stuff happens and um and so much so often technology takes a lot of that away or just enough of it away that it strips away what's really awesome yeah about the relationship um and and there's an argument to be made also that it it deludes you into thinking that you actually are connecting with a lot of people and stops you from then going out and having those real face-to-face or deeper conversations that make a real difference. So I'm not like anti-technology. I mean, we're sitting here right now and there's a lot of technology happening between us. But I think it has its place.

And very often its place is to find people who you think would be really well aligned with you start a conversation and then as soon as you can like take it real time yeah um because that's where the magic really happens and and the flip side is also we talked about individual connection but also community you know building being part of something bigger than you where you feel like they're shared values and beliefs and aspirations is really important to us. How can people find that? Yeah. Through their hobbies, through. Yeah.

I mean, for like, again, this goes back to first, you got to do a little bit of work to know yourself. Right. You know, and that's why, you know, you have so many freshmen show up in college and they join everything on the planet. And they come home at the end of the freshman year and they feel alone and isolated. And it's not because they haven't tried. They're surrounded by people all day, every day. It's because they actually never just hit pause long enough to do a little bit of work, to learn about themselves enough to actually know, well, this is what needs to be in place. I want to join a club where everybody's know, like everybody's, you know, like there's,

there's, their social wiring is a little bit quieter, you know, and they want to, you know, they're kind of into art and they really dig nature and, um, they have deep philosophical conversations rather than I want to join, you know, like a fraternity where it's all about partying and people like really extroverted and social. Not that that's every fraternity, but, you know, to know which of those things is right for you, you got to know yourself first. And we just, we don't do that work.

It's actually not. To just get at least a baseline level of knowledge about like who we are and what we care about doesn't take that much work. It just takes a willingness to go a little bit deeper into ourselves before we try and actually go out into the world

and find, like involve ourselves with relationships and communities that actually resonate with who we really are rather than the facade of who we think

we should be. How do we find ourselves? Yeah. What's like? Asking questions. You know, there are a set of baseline assessments

that we've used in different programs that we've run and stuff like that. that we've used in different programs that we've run and stuff like that. We've used for strengths, for example. There are two big assessments. One is StrengthsFinder, which a lot of people know. There's probably a lesser known one called the VIA Strengths Assessment. And that actually is really heavily researched and came out of the world of positive psychology. And so both of these things generally, they'll give you, you take a questionnaire, it takes 20 minutes, right? And they'll give you, you take a questionnaire, it takes

20 minutes, right? And they'll give you a list of like 20 to 25 strengths. And your top five are generally the ones which really are the heartbeat of the things. But they're different also. Like the VIA strengths is more about your virtues, you know? And whereas StrengthsFinder would probably be more apt to describe them more along the lines of like your talents or your gifts. But either way, the idea is once you have a sense of these things, like can you move through

your day in a way where you're leveraging them as much as you possibly can? Because when you build your life around your ability to leverage those things, rather than spend all of your time trying to fix what's wrong, a lot of what's wrong starts to drop away and you feel like really empowered. Same thing when it comes to your values and beliefs. You start asking questions. The most fundamental question, the question you start with is, what's important to me? And then your first line answer is going to be something like, well, family or money or power or cars, whatever it may be.

A lot of people stop there. Like, let me just, what are my top five there? And that's going to give you really shallow answers, which is going to give you a really shallow life. So then you ask the next question. You essentially keep asking that question. Well, of these things, why are they important? And then why are they important?

You keep asking the why question until you get down to a deeper emotional level of why these things matter. So it's not hard, but sometimes it's not fun. Yeah. And that's why we don't do the work. You know, I know over the last few years, Nick, we've been friends for a while now. You've gone deep.

Real deep. On a personal level. To see what you've gone, to see the depth you've like learned yourself, it's kind of stunning. And so much of the, of the shifts that you've made in your professional life and your personal life over the last three years, you know, have been an outgrowth of just a deep process of self-discovering, really knowing yourself on a level that when we first met, like your level of self-knowledge and the way you bring yourself to the world is so different. You know, it's like, it's palpable. And I think people bring yourself to the world is so different. You know, it's like it's palpable.

And I think people feel that. They respond to it. Yeah. You know? The funny thing is I feel like I'm just getting started, you know? Yeah, totally. It's like, oh, man, there's so much more to discover, you know? Yeah.

When I feel like I've figured something out, it's like, no, you haven't figured anything out. Right, right. You always hit that threshold. You're like, I think I have it dialed in. Like the next step is like, I know nothing. I know. It's the word. Completely ignorant.

It's good, though, to keep questioning your beliefs and values and make sure that you're doing what works for you and the world. Yeah. And it's like it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, like is to be open, you know. And I look at things like this as, okay, this is my snapshot. This is a moment in time right now, right? This is what I think I know and understand about myself and about the world and the way that I move into it. But I'm going to keep asking questions. I'm going to keep running experiments. I look at, you know, so my current company, you know, we've been around for four years now and we're growing nicely. But built into the name of the company is the

word project, you know, because to me, it's a series of experiments. This is a project for me, Because to me, it's a series of experiments. This is a project for me. And I wonder if we looked at building a good life as just a project with a series of experiments. That would give us so much more freedom to allow ourselves to be open to whatever the experiments yield rather than saying like this has to succeed now in this window of time. It's like, no, I'm going to run an experiment. My goal is to actually just learn. You know, and this may give me an answer that I really want,

which would be awesome. Yeah. May give me an answer that I'm not all that comfortable with, right? But then the question is, so what do I do with that? Right. You know, and then how do I actually run the next experiment and then the next? I'm such a huge fan of experiments or games, whatever you want to call call them for me i feel like that's the way i learned is by taking on a challenge okay for this week for this month i'm going to do something every single day to see

what works what didn't work or what i learned from it and i feel like and i usually do it around things i'm most afraid of yeah things i'm most afraid of like what's an example like what's a teenager is like i was terrified to talk to girls. So every day, I was like, anytime I get butterflies when I see a girl that I like, I have to go up and talk to her. That's my challenge. That's my game for the day. And just say hello and see where the conversation goes. It was terrifying.

Another one was public speaking. I was terrified of speaking public. So I said, okay, every week I'm going to go to a public speaking class for a year. And I did that. And I was able to see so much growth over the year. It was terrifying. It was horrible. It was, you know, a lot of work, a lot of pain and suffering. But I see where I'm at now, like eight, nine years later from when I started that challenge, like I'm able to really be in front of people and make an impact, you know, still a lot more to go, still a lot farther to grow. But if I didn't take on an experiment or that challenge of that project years

ago, then I wouldn't be here. And so I constantly take on challenges, projects, games, whatever you want to call it. And, uh,

I feel like that's the juice. It's like, we learned, that's like my master's program, you know, it's when we take on those projects. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, the moment that you decide that you're done that you're good you got it all figured out to me is the moment that you start living and stop living you know because

that's the moment that like we said that's the moment that growth ends you know and at some point you'd love to be like i mean this is you know it's a quote that i throw around it's part of like our good life project living creatives right towards the end which is a good life is not a place at which you arise. It's a lens through which you see and create your world. And so many of us are like, when I get there, then I'm going to be living that good life. It's like when I get this, I'm going to be living that good life. I just need this much money in the bank or this house or this relationship or this power job. And then they get there and they're like, you know, just a little bit more.

You know, that's the answer is just – there's actually really fascinating research around this that's been done where people, you know, they'll ask, well, how much do you need to feel like, you know, like you're good in life, you know? And they say, well, a million dollars or whatever. And then they'll track people like, you track people like when they actually hit that number. And then they're not good? Never. Literally never. Then the amount is always a little bit further down the road. Why is that?

I think it's just the way that we're wired. We're wired for more. We're wired for discontent to a certain extent. Why? It's really interesting. I think part of it is just societally, you know, like we're taught that these particular things matter. You're like these, there, there's a set of metrics that, that tell you when you've made it, when you're actually living that good life,

you know, and it's kind of predefined by culture, you know? So what's interesting is that if you actually look at the American culture or Western culture in general, it's pretty universal, right? It's a certain amount of money. It's a job that makes a certain amount of money, has a certain amount of prestige, a certain amount of cars in the garage, a house of a certain size or an apartment of a certain size. It's all these standardized things, which basically are checkpoints that say, okay, now you're living that good life. But when you actually leave Western culture, you go into more Eastern-based cultures, the metrics change pretty profoundly.

Even Western culture that's European versus American, you know, the emphasis on family. Family, community. In Europe or South America, Central America. Totally different. You know, it's so much less about what we have or how much we're making. I mean, if you go to Ireland

and you're like the first question out of your mouth is, so what do you do for a living? People are like, what's wrong with you? You know, it's like, they care about like, who are you as a human? They can't,

they're actually more interested in like, you know, who is your family? And so there's, there's just become this really strong emphasis on what you have as the metric for living a good life in the US and even in Western countries

where it's not the U S base, it's just pretty quickly to how deep are your relationships? How much time do you spend with people that you love that you can't get enough of? Then we go even farther East. It's how much stillness do you have in your life? You know, it's how, how at peace are you? You know, do you lay your head down at the end of the day feeling like you've done meaningful work, you've been of service, and you're at peace?

So if we actually started to exalt those as metrics that really define a life well lived, man, so many of us would then start to realize, oh, I can actually have that right now. Yeah, I don't need to chase something. Yeah, like I could be living this now. It's just a matter of like I want to wear a different lens, you know, now. And it released so much pain because we don't have to feel like we're just – this is all about suffering until I quote make it. It's like no. You know, like maybe circumstances aren't exactly as I need them to be now. But there's a whole lot of good right now too. And if I shift the metrics of what it means to actually be living that awesome life, there's so much which I can either just see right here now that I don't see

or create in the moment, you know, because I have control over my choice. Like I can move from being massively reactive and maniacally busy doing things that are generally not all that meaningful to me and set by somebody else's agenda, right? So I rest my head on my pillow at the end of the day being frazzled, stressed, no peace at all, wiped out. And when you ask me how my day was, I'll tell you busy and you'll ask, what did you do that mattered? And you'd be like, I really don't know.

Versus saying, okay, I'm going to wake up in the morning. And the first thing I'm going to do is just spend a few minutes in stillness to just like, you know, get into myself. And then ask myself, all right, what's a single most meaningful thing that I, the one single most meaningful thing that I could do today? You're like, let me do that. Anything else that happens beyond that? Awesome. Bonus. Right? Right. Yeah. So check as many boxes as you me do that. Anything else that happens beyond that, awesome. Bonus. Right?

Right. Yeah. So check as many boxes as you want after that. You know, and ask, you know, and you wake up in the morning and this is like a morning bucket check, right? Really quick scan. You know, like how full is my vitality bucket today? You know, zero to 10.

Yeah, it's about a seven. Right? How full is my connection bucket today? Yeah, it's an eight. Like, I feel like I'm doing really good. I'm in loving relationships. I've been talking to my friends and hanging out with them. How full is my contribution bucket? I don't feel like I've been doing stuff that's really mattering to me or my strengths. I just don't feel like I'm really leveraging myself

all that fully. It's just kind of low. So I'm probably going to say, okay, so today I want to focus on doing a little something to fill that contribution bucket. I want to really figure out, okay, what can I do today that's really going to make me feel like I'm standing in my strengths? You know, and you just like, you don't have to make the whole day monotically about this. Just like, what's one little action I can take that'll fill that bucket a little bit? And like you can rest your head on your pillow at the end of the day saying, you know, like, okay, A, I chose instead of just responding to other people's agendas. So right away it's a win, right? There's something I call reactive life syndrome, right?

Which is basically we go through life being dominated by other people's agendas and being maniacally busy with stuff that doesn't matter to us. You're like the minute you choose, then that goes out the window because you move from being reactive to intentional. And that's where life really starts to light up. Where do you think our suffering comes from? Life. I think so much of it comes from expectations. Expectations about what we should have, who we should be, what life is supposed to be like. I think part of it is also, so part of it is expectations that have us chasing things that we think really matter that don't. So part of it is that. Part of it is that we are also, most of us are softwired to seek security slash,

which also just another word for certainty. So there's, there's only one thing in life that I am absolutely certain about, and that is that we can never have certainty, right? So, so there's literally no conceivable way. There's nothing that we can do today or for the rest of our lives to lock down a certain future, certain minute, certain moment. Right. 9-11 for me was a huge wake up call. Yeah.

You know, so by definition, if we invest the vast majority of our waking hours in trying to pursue something that's impossible to attain for our entire lives, that's suffering. Rather than saying, listen, I don't know what the future holds. I'm going to lock it down as much as I can. I want to have some money in the bank so my family is taken care of. But fundamentally, I'm also going to acknowledge the fact that to a large extent, it's un-lockdownable. I'm going to work really hard to do great work and do good things in the world. But at the same time, I know at the end of the day, life's uncertain. Yeah.

I think I learned that early on when I was 23 or 24. I had a dream to play in the NFL and I got injured. And I was like, my whole life was changed because there was no other option. This is happening. I'm going to make it happen. was no other option. This was like, this is happening. I'm going to make it happen. But when I wasn't open to, okay, well, things change or things are uncertain or things, you know, maybe there's a different path for me. Like I wasn't even open to it. And so there was like this suffering and this pain and depression for a year and a half, two

years, because I was just like, what do I do now? Yeah. Well, so I'm curious what, and yes, it's interesting. We've talked about this right, probably a bunch of times, but I don't think I've ever asked you like asked you like what what snapped you out of it like what took you from a place of like laying on your sister's couch to back to a place of curiosity and possibility i think uh you know my my dad had gone through a really bad accident at the same time i had trauma and he was in a coma for a few months and he wasn't able to really he's alive, but he hasn't been able to fully kind of recover to the dad that I knew. Emotionally, spiritually, he's just had a head trauma, and it's – so it's been hard for him to get back. And I remember taking care of him.

We had to teach him how to write and how to talk again and how to just do normal functional things, remember certain things. and how to just do normal functional things, remember certain things. And I remember being like, wow, okay. Like I don't have my dad to like just have my back or to like go to mentor me to kind of lean back on. He was always like my safety net. He was always like, go live your dream and then come work for me, you know. Go do your thing. And then when you're ready, when you're done with that, like I've got a spot for you type of thing.

So I never had to like figure it out on my own he was always there to support me and after a couple years i'm on my sister's couch i was like oh my dad's not going to be able to support me i'm not going to be able to like have him anymore as a safety net i was like well i can either continue living like this and feel like a worthless piece of crap on my sister's couch adding no value to the world or i can figure out what i'm gonna do the rest of my life. And that's when I started taking on these challenges. I was like, okay, well, I want to make an impact. I need to learn how to speak and communicate because I was just a big dumb jock. You know, I mean, I had a big heart and I could connect with people, but I didn't know how to deliver and package my message in a way that people were able to receive it.

And so I started doing public speaking and then learning about online marketing because I was like, I just need to make money. And I was just like, okay, I'm discovery mode now, and I'm going to try everything. And I think that's what it was. I just made a decision after a couple of years. I was like, okay, I'm going to be something. I'm going to make something of my life. I'm going to make an impact.

I'm going to make a difference. I'm going to show people that I matter and do something with my life. So that's just time and awareness and awakening. Yeah. And I think that's what happens with so many people too. It's sort of like you're wallowing and wallowing and wallowing. And you hit a point where you're just like, look. Sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Right. It's like if I don't make a different choice now, this is going to be my life. That's it. And I'm not liking the trajectory that this has taken. It's sort of like, this is, this is one of the things that made me leave the law, like way back in the day. I was like, I was, I was coming up on 30 years old, you know, and I'm like, if I don't do this now, it's going to be another 20 years before I make this decision.

And even though I wasn't comfortable doing it and I was like, good money, I had the job that everybody wanted, you know? And I was like, but if I don't do this now, I literally, it's going to be a couple of decades before I'm going to be back in this

place where I'm going to be willing to actually extract myself from the pain that I'm feeling now. Um, so I'm always, I'm always so curious, like what those inciting incidents are for people. I think I also had nothing to lose. I didn't have a job.

I didn't have a family. I didn't have these things. So it's like, let me just go see what I can create. Yeah. Since I'm already at the bottom, you know? Yeah.

It was interesting. It was definitely an interesting time. Yeah. It's like, you gotta build momentum, you know? It's like, yeah,

nothing. And I just have to build momentum. It takes a while. So, so here I'm kind of, sorry, I'm like, I I just have to build momentum. It takes a while. So here I'm – I'm sorry. I'm like I'm taking over the interview. It's okay. It's okay.

But I'm really curious because we've never talked about this. So part of the reason I wrote this, like when it really comes down to it, is because I would love for this book to go out into the world and be the inciting incident that inspires somebody to say, wait, let me think about things differently. Like maybe like this is a moment where i don't have to blow things up i can actually start i'm curious with the school of greatness when you wrote the book was that in your mind at all too as like one of the reasons for the book to be like uh to sort of like be this like thing that kind of like somebody absolutely yeah i mean when i read for our work week that was like the catalyst for me to start working and everything i was doing eight years ago. And I was like, I want to create a piece of work that's opens people up to possibilities to what's possible in their life. And so I start moving forward towards that life that they want. And absolutely. So that's great. I mean, I like also you have a thing about nature in here too yeah right i mean you have all these different challenges you know a 30-day challenge here about how to you know fill up your buckets which i think is extremely important because playing games having challenges having a project whatever you want to call it is something i think we should always be doing and i think you give some great examples of how to

take it on so we don't have to think of our own challenge yeah and that was the whole idea i was like you know i could I'm a writer fundamentally. So I love – just the craft of writing, I love. I love actually like obsessing over sentences and stuff like that. So I'm a weirdo like that. But fundamentally also, I want to write something that was – you know, I'm in the middle of my life. I have – my days are full, you know, and I have a lot of friends that are in the same position and I want to create something that was actionable for somebody that already had a full life where they could just like, they get, there was something to do every day where they could just flip it

open. I mean, literally you can, you can read this not linearly, you can pick a chapter, it's a day, say like, this is something I'm going to do today. You know, it's short, it's sweet, but it makes a difference. And a lot of the stuff is also all scientifically validated. You know, there's,, it's sweet, but it makes a difference. And a lot of the stuff is also all scientifically validated. You know, there's research behind it. But you brought up the tree thing, which is something that I've known intuitively for life is that like my reset is nature. It's either the woods or the beach.

For me, I grew up, the beach was the end of my road. So the water for me is really like where I touch stone. But also, I mean, there's something about being in nature, especially walking in the woods, which is just like profoundly calming. It's a major reset for me. So I got really curious. It turns out there's a ton of research on how nature literally, you know, it changes our physiology and our mindset and the chemicals that are coursing through us. There's actually a Japanese word, shinrin yoku, which translates to forest bathing.

And there are shinrin yoku designated forests in Japan where they literally designated where you can go into them and just walking in these forests, it will literally change your life. But not all of us have forests, right? So the research also shows that simply being in an office or being at home during the day and being in a setting where you have a plant in view that you can see versus having no greenery at all, even that tiny thing makes a really big difference.

Interesting. So have plants or something in your office or in your house. So it's like as simple as you go out for a walk where you're around a whole bunch of greenery, even if you can't and you're in your office or in your house. So it's like as simple as you go out for a walk where you're around a whole bunch of green. But even if you can and you're in your home or work setting, put something green in it and it actually makes a difference. Little things. I believe that. I mean, just imagine yourself in a box all day with no life in there.

Yeah. It's hard to feel alive, I guess, when you're in the box constantly without life. But when you put life in there, then you're connected in a different way. Yeah. I mean, there are studies done on hospital patients. Ones where you're in a room where you can't see out the window with trees and others where there's actually a window with trees. The recovery rates are faster. No way.

They experience less pain and they're discharged more quickly from the hospital. That's crazy. When you have a window where you can see nature outside. That's crazy. It's crazy. When you have a window where you can see like nature outside. That's crazy. I think it's all, I mean, it's,

it seems, I mean, it seems true because it's like, if you can see possibility of growth and you can see like something that's alive, you probably feel more inspired to get out. I don't know. Yeah. As opposed to just seeing a brick wall in New York city,

you know, across the street from your window or something. Right. Whatever it is, it just, it makes a difference. Yeah. the street from your window or something. Right. Whatever it is, it just makes a difference. Yeah. That's all I know. Amazing. Amazing.

What's missing in your life right now? Space. Two things. Space, but that's a deliberate choice right now, and working with my hands. So for me, you know, whenever you're bringing something to life, which is a big project you worked on for years, things get compressed and your days get busy. And I hate that word busy, but the saving grace for me, and I think it's really important for anybody, is that it's okay to fill your day with a lot of stuff, but do it deliberately.

Don't just take it by default. Don't let other people's stuff pile into your day to fill it up. Fill your day with stuff that you've chosen matters to you. So right now, like there's not a ton of space in my days because I'm bringing something that I care deeply about to the world. So they're filled as I like bring it out there, but I'm choosing, you know, this is, so I'm choosing what I'm going to do. I'm choosing what matters, why it matters. And I'm choosing to be in this place for a certain window of time where I know I'll then step back out of it. And at the same time, I still have a daily practice, which keeps my mindset still and allows me to still optimize and fill my vitality bucket. And if that starts to get messed up, I'll pull back.

The other thing is working with my hands. There's something like that. I don't know if you feel this way too, but I grew up as a kid working with my hands. There's something like that. I don't know if you feel this way too, but I grew up as a kid working with my hands and I was an artist also. And then I built houses in the summers during college. There's something about creating where you're physically using your hands to make something. And at the end of it, you can step back and just see it and touch it and feel it and be like, I made that. That's cool. And I've been creating a lot, but in the digital space over the last

couple of years, it's not the same. And I'm feeling this itch to actually dive in and just work with my hands more. What would you make? A guitar. I've been talking about this for years. And, and, and so part of it is like, that's going to be actually kind of like probably one of my rewards. After the book comes out.

Yeah, exactly. It's to learn to actually do that. You haven't done it before? I haven't. You can go to these programs basically. Classes, schools. Dive intensively. I've had a friend do that too, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. You go for like a week or two and you make a guitar, right? Yeah, exactly. But even just little things like work with my hands. Like I'll start painting a little bit again and just to feel like I'm making stuff with my hands and making art. Yeah. That's cool.

Yeah. I feel like I don't have that itch, but I have the itch to create art through sports. Yeah. To play, to use my hand, to like throw a ball, a catch,

to like touch people, like be messy on in sports and playing basketball. It's like, that's my itch. Yeah. But, um, and maybe cause I'm just not that talented at the artist stuff yet. It's not even that. That is your artistry.

Right, right. Your canvas is athletics, it's sports, it's movement. For me, it's beautiful. Yeah. I feel like- No, I've seen footage of you in various different settings. I'm like, that is mastery. That is artistry.

Yeah, yeah. What are you grateful for in your life? Uh, my family. Like, I mean, I'm grateful for so much, my God, there's like almost nothing that I could say I'm not grateful for, but the thing that comes to me first and foremost, my family. I mean, you know, my wife is just one of the most amazing people on the planet and my kid is, you know, an awesome human being who's growing into a really just a, you know, a good, a good person who cares about the world. And, uh, um, yeah. And, and my wife is also my business partner too.

So we literally work together and live together and breathe together 24 seven. Um, and we're married almost 20 years now. Wow. How do you navigate that when you're married? Yeah. It's so funny. People are like, you guys should do some sort of program or workshop on like building a life and building a business together. And we're like, honestly, we don't know how it works. Yeah.

You know, it just does. We have different skills. I think a big part of it is we're really fortunate in over a period of a long time together. We've grown as individuals in a way where we're still fortunate in over a period of a long time together. We've grown as individuals in a way where we're still deeply complimentary to each other, you know, and sometimes honoring your own personal path has people growing away from, um, the way that they, they need to be to stay together. And, and that's a tough thing, but it's also an okay thing. Wait, say that again. Honoring your own personal pathway.

You know, I think, so it's really important to honor your own personal growth, to grow into the person that you know, like to become fully expressed as who you are as an individual in the world. You know, and when we're in relationship with other people, whether it's a partner or friends or even business partners, you know, if each one of us are like doing what we need to do to become who we need to be individually, we change, we evolve. And over a period of years or decades, sometimes you change and evolve in a way where you're still deeply connected and complimentary and the relationship still is profoundly beautiful. You know, sometimes you evolve in a way individually where you're not as complimentary anymore. You know, it doesn't mesh nearly as well anymore. Maybe it's a business partner. It's time as well anymore. Maybe it's a business partner.

It's time to grow apart. Maybe it's a partner in life. And so part of it, I think, is work. Part of it is all the classic stuff for relationships. Part of it is also honoring who we need to become individually. And there's a certain amount of just luck in that still being the person who's still deeply complimentary. And we're blessed in that we've both grown individually in a lot of ways in a way where we're both just so profoundly still in love with each other. I love working together.

That's amazing. And co-creating stuff together and building community. And we also just on a practical level, like from a business standpoint, we do different things and we have different MOs and we're good at different things. So it works. It works. It's not for everybody.

Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're growing so much. I feel like so many people are growing apart in, in relationships as well.

Right. In marriages, it's like more and more divorce. Do you think it's because people are growing into who they truly are more and more or do you think it's more of a cop-out and they're just not working enough? Yeah, I don't know if I have an answer to that.

Yeah. Because everyone's different, huh? Yeah, although here's a really interesting bit of data and I haven't validated this but I've sort of actually been told it recently is that arranged marriages actually have a higher success rate than what I would call sort of like a natural you know love-based marriage and I don't there's there may be all sorts of societal constructs that make that not healthy or healthier I don't really know but it's kind

of like that when I heard that it stopped me i was like huh what's really going on there but um yeah i don't i don't have i don't have an answer to that but um i just it's crazy this life i'm not gonna wait every day consider myself blessed that's amazing yeah that's great congrats on that um this is called the three truths three truths question cool so it's your last day many years from now. All your work has been erased from time. And you have a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've created in your life that you would pass on to your family, friends, and the world. What would be your three truths? Lead with love. Meaning matters.

And embrace the unknown. I like those. They're solid. Two final questions, but before I do, I want to make sure everyone, before I ask them, I want to make sure everyone gets the book,

How to Live a Good Life by Jonathan Fields, Soulful Stories, Surprising Science, and Practical Wisdom. Make sure to pick it up right now. And on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, there'll also be a link on the show notes on how to get this.

So go pick up a copy and let Jonathan know what you think. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Jonathan, for your incredible friendship to me and your incredible grace. I look at you as such an incredible, as a graceful human being.

Thank you. And that grace for me is like guidance. You're like this guiding individual human being that really leads with soul. And for me, it's something that I really appreciate because you helped me with so many things. And when I was going through a lot of discovery myself, I turned to you for guidance and grace.

I want to acknowledge you for what you've created in the world and how you've shown up for me to be willing to bear my soul to you and talk about things that happened to me and really reveal it on the podcast a couple years ago. That episode that we did together brought so much healing for not only me, but so many people in the world. So I want to acknowledge you for your continual showing up, giving, leading with love, and being so graceful. Thank you, man.

I appreciate that. Of course. Yeah. And the final question is, what's your definition of greatness? Yeah, it's probably evolving for me. Doing the work to really understand who you are, what matters to you in the world, and how you need to express yourself.

And then aligning the actions, aligning the way that you live every day with the truth of who you are in a way where you close the gap between that person and the person you bring to the world. Shout out to Fields. Thanks, man.

Yeah. Appreciate it, man. Yeah. Appreciate it, bro. There you have it. I hope you enjoyed this interview with my dear friend, Jonathan Fields. Again, such an incredible human being who is a leader to so many people. You know, whenever people talk about Jonathan or speak with his name in a sentence, it's always in a good light. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything negative about Jonathan or speak in with his name in a sentence, it's always in a good light. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything negative about Jonathan. He's just such a good person and

very wise. So make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com slash three nine four, connect with Jonathan and make sure to get his new book, how to live a good life. If you feel like something's missing right now, pick up the book and start reading it. As always, if this is your first time here, then welcome. Welcome to the School of Greatness community. Make sure to leave us a message over on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram at Lewis Howes. Let us know what you thought of this and subscribe to the podcast over on iTunes and let us know what you thought. Leave a review if you feel so inclined. I love you so very much. We do this every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

So if this is your first time here, get ready because you've got greatness coming your way. As always, guys, thank you so much for being here. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Bye.