The School of Greatness - 404 Mike Rowe: True Success (Part 2)

Episode Date: November 9, 2016

"Short cuts lead to long delays." - Mike Rowe If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewihowes.com/404

Episode number 404 with Mike Rowe, part two. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. All right, guys, welcome back.

If you enjoyed part one of this with Mike Rowe, then you are in for a very special treat. Again, to recap part one, we talked about why having passion for something doesn't guarantee you'll actually get good at that thing. Why people with dirty jobs tend to be happier than most other people. Why working smart, not hard is horrible advice and so much more that we talked about in part one with Mike Rowe.

And in this episode, part two, we talk about how if you can have a fulfilled life without working hard, actually the concept of working hard and how it relates to fulfillment. Interesting concept. How to build a big audience without inflating your ego. Mike's view on masculinity today versus what it used to mean as a man. The truth about whether Mike was being considered for vice president this time around, and so much more. Guys, we dive in deep in this one. So make sure to listen in, take notes, connect with Mike on social media. Again, this is lewishouse.com slash 404.

So watch the full video interview back there. Check out all the show notes and information there as well. interview back there. Check out all the show notes and information there as well. And without further ado, let's go into part two with the one, the only Mike Rowe. Do you think that we can have a fulfilled life without working hard? No. Why do so many people try to not do any hard work at all? They just try to get by in the easy way. Because... And then they feel like they're suicidal,

they're unhappy, they're depressed. And I'm like, because you don't work hard. People are rivers. People are rivers trying to get to the ocean. And the river is making its way, and there's a mountain. Well, you know, the river's not going to go over the mountain. The river's going to go around the mountain.

It's going to find the lowest possible way. And that's why rivers look like broken snakes, you know. They go wherever the circumstances they encounter push them, right? Most people do the same thing. Now, Lewis and Clark didn't, right? Lewis and Clark went west. They looked around. They saw a mountain.

They went over it. They, you know, certain people aren't rivers. Certain people are something else. And those people, to a man and a woman, work hard. Yeah. You know, it's the, again, it's very hard to say any of what I'm saying right now and not sound like somebody's grumpy old neighbor on the porch yelling at the kids to get off the lawn. Right. But I'm sorry.

My granddad used to say shortcuts lead to long delays. Shortcuts lead to long delays. So we're told every single day in about a thousand different ways, back to our earlier conversation, that happiness is attainable if you do this, this, that, and that. And, I mean, turn on any commercial right now for any financial institution. You'd be happier if you could retire a little sooner, if you could take a longer vacation. Why work 40 when you can work 30? Why work 50 if you can get by with 40? Everything is geared in a very, very subtle way to suggest that the reason that the proximate cause of your misery is something external. It's your freaking boss. It's your freaking boss.

It's your crazy schedule. It's that son of a bitch down here. It's this victim mentality. I just think it's true. And I honestly believe that, look, there are no guarantees for success, but the most interesting people wake up, look around,

identify the hard, challenging thing. It's not about eating your peas and sucking it up and getting through it. It's about identifying it and loving it and saying that looks affirmatively. It's about learning how to salsa. That's what it's about, man. You know, it's about look for the thing that doesn't drip with comfort. It was so uncomfortable learning. I was this tall white dude.

Right. With everyone who didn't speak English. And I was like, I want to learn how to dance and understand your culture. It was terrifying. It took me months just to step on the dance floor. And in hindsight, how is it informed? Best decision of my life. Okay.

I mean, I can go anywhere in the world. It doesn't matter if I know the language or not. I can jump into any salsa club. In every major city, there's salsa clubs. And I have the confidence to go speak to anyone through the way I dance. Yeah. I don't even have to ask them a question. I can just go up and grab their hand and dance with someone and have friends.

Good for you. Honestly, I get now why people are listening to you because fundamentally, in my view, you're in on the joke. Yeah. I think I am too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the joke is, you know, you have to do the hard thing. And look, the best thing, well, one of my favorite unintended consequences of getting dirty jobs on the air and being the dirty jobs guy is when I go to places, I get a chance to talk sometimes to recently a very powerful group of men, about 2,000 of them. I mean, heads of state from all over the country, and it was a private club and exclusive and a lot of reasons that a lot of people get a little nervous around it.

But this group of men was the most extraordinary assemblage I'd ever seen. And I talked to them very candidly about dirty jobs and told some funny stories. And later, hundreds of them came up to me. These are people who run Fortune 500 companies. And, Lewis, they all said the same thing. They all pulled me aside. And you know what they all wanted to tell me? They wanted to tell

me about their first job. They wanted to tell me how hard it was. They wanted to tell me about the time in their life when they looked down and didn't see a net. When they realized sometimes you got to make little rocks out of big rocks. Sometimes you got to pick up the hammer. Sometimes you've got to work hard and not smart. You know, they were just so eager to talk about that and not in a braggadocio kind of way. But just like, you know, when you hear truth, when you hear something that strikes you as truth, it's agitating, you know, right? When you hear something you believe to be true but most people haven't heard, it's agitating. And it makes you want to grab the country has become fundamentally disconnected from the definition of a good job, from the importance of hard work, from the importance of an education, but only in a very broad sense. We've become convinced that a four-year degree is the best path for the most people, and therefore all the other options are somehow subordinate. We've just become, we don't know where our food comes from. We really don't

understand where our food comes from. One and a half percent of the country is feeding 300 million people three times a day. We're not impressed by that. How the hell can we be so blasé about the fact that 30 million people are feeding, sorry, 3 million people are feeding 300 million. How can we be so, huh? How can we flick the lights? How can we flick on a switch, see the lights come on, and not be like, oh my God.

Blown away. Right. I hit that button over there, it gets cooler. I get cold water, hot water. Poof, it's a miracle. Go in the bathroom, look down at what you've done, be horrified, hit the handle. Gone. Clean. It's a miracle. Go in the bathroom. Look down at what you've done. Be horrified.

Hit the handle. Gone. Clean. It was never here. Right? We are so, we are no longer gobsmacked by these fundamental things. And that disconnect, I'm talking very generally, but that disconnect, you know, it was so real in my life when I went from a guy, a 16, 17-year-old kid, convinced and utterly connected to all the things I just mentioned. Then I wandered in the wilderness until I was 42 in Hollywood in New York, impersonating a host,

completely just kind of bullshitting myself and anybody who might be watching, just creating the illusion of competence. And then all of a sudden, oh, now I'm in a sewer in San Francisco, crawling around, trying to get a show off the ground in honor of my granddad. And suddenly, you know, again, a long, sloppy, rambling way of saying that Dirty Jobs reconnected me to a lot of things that I believe are fundamentally important. And I don't know what will reconnect you, not that you need to be reconnected, but the many, many, many other millions of people who are not going to get a chance to work shoulder to shoulder,

castrating lambs or repairing sewers. But everybody somehow or another, in my view, needs to get reconnected to the important things. And that's why I start and end every day with gratitude. It's something I feel like to give me perspective every single day because I can get caught up in the stresses or the overwhelm or whatever's happening in my business. But I'm like, gosh, I'm so grateful that I am healthy. You know, I have friends without arms and legs. I interview people who are war veterans who lose their limbs.

friends without arms and legs. Yeah. I interview people who are war veterans who lose their limbs and I'm like, gosh, I'm so grateful that I get to shake someone's hand. Yeah. And, and touch my girlfriend's face and simple things that I think a lot of us take for granted.

And I just, it's a daily practice. Otherwise I'm going to be nasty with the best of them, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, listen, I'm, I, I'm a little, uh, Ayn Randian in that, in that regard. I mean, I agree with you, but my, my reasons for being grateful are, are actually selfish. Um, I can't, I can't feel depressed when I'm great.

What did they call it? An attitude of gratitude, right? If you're grateful. Yes. Can't be angry at the same time. That's right. It's the antidote of anger. That's right. Or fear or frustration. Every bad thing gets co-opted by gratitude. Now, it gets a little smiley and squishy for me. Yes. We've got to be careful because anything that rhymes gives me the creeps.

So that attitude of gratitude. Yes, I hear you. Hey, turn that frown upside down. Don't be buck up, little camper. You know, no, no, that pisses people off. Sure. But it is nevertheless true. It is.

Just don't do it in a cheesy way. Just don't. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Always execution. Everything is always execution. I've got a ton of questions I want to ask you, but I want to be respectful of time. So I want to ask a few more. What time do you have to get out of here?

One hour from now, I have to walk behind that glass, and I have to sit down, and I have to start telling stories about Bering. Today, it's Bering Sea gold. These guys up in the Bering Sea are mining for gold underwater. Wow. Big brass ones. Yeah. Okay. So you've got a little bit of time. I've got a little time. Big brass ones. Yeah. Okay. So you got a little bit of time.

I got a little time. Okay, cool. My question is, I'm writing this book about masculinity. I talked to you a little bit before about this. My question is, what is your definition of masculinity and has it changed over the years? It has changed as a kid. You know, you definitely won't remember this, but there's my dad used to go to this barber shop and they sold

combs in the barber shop. Ajax combs. Okay. And they were just black combs like every guy in the world had. You've seen Mad Men. So Don Draper, right? A guy who looks like Don Draper. Some people say I look like.

You got a little bit? A little bit. Some people. A little bit. Some people probably don't. But there was a picture of a guy, sort of like almost a little cardboard cutout, who looked a little bit like Don Draper and a little bit like Superman. Okay. Dark hair, gelled, parted on the side, square jaw, cleft in the chin.

I mean, and my dad would sit there and get his hair cut and I would just stare at this guy knowing, you know, he doesn't look like my dad and he doesn't look like me, but that's a man. That's a man. And then not long after that, we were driving up to Delaware, and we were on 95, and we went through the toll plaza, and the guy who took the toll

looked just like the guy on the Ajax comb thing. And I said, Dad, that's a man. And he laughed. I'm probably seven years old at the time. He goes, yeah, he's a man. I'm a man. Men everywhere. He goes, yeah, but I said, that guy, that guy is a man.

And he said, so you like the look of that man? And I said, well, I'm just saying. He looks like the man in the barbershop, the cardboard cutout. And my dad just laughed. And we didn't have a big apocryphal conversation in the car about it. But I remember just thinking, you know, okay, they walk among us, these men, and they look like that. And wouldn't it be good to be one of those? So my earliest feelings about manhood were embodied by a face I never saw really in real life, except, you know, it started with a cardboard cutout and then somehow mutated into a guy in a toll booth. Sure.

And then, you know, all the traditional archetypes and stereotypes growing up, you know, watching Bonanza. and stereotypes growing up, you know, watching Bonanza. You know, I thought, you know, I thought Pernell Roberts on Bonanza, he looked like that guy too. He was a man. And then all that was doubled down with my grandfather, who while he didn't look like those guys, he was just a – he was so – he was like Abe Lincoln strong. He could take – Old man strength. He was like Abe Lincoln strong. He could take.

Old man strength. He grabbed. Can't beat it. I saw him grab a pole that was attached to my mother's clothesline one day. And he put his right hand thusly and his left hand here. And then his body just went completely up. Flag. Parallel to the ground.

It's called a human flag. He flagged it, man. And he held it for a long time. Was your daddy or grandpa? My grandfather. Wow. My grandpa. Now, again, I'm, what, 9, 10 years old.

That's impressive. Right. So, you know. I can't even do that for a second, maybe. I can do it, but I got to cheat with my elbow tucked in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did like this. That's impressive.

It's crazy. It's all wrist strength. Anyway, a very sloppy way of saying that these images from the 50s and my grandfather's ability to fix anything and crazy strength. Crazy strength. And my dad, his contribution to it, just aside from having all the power that fathers have, was patience. My father will wait you out. My father will spend all day. He might not know how to fix the plumbing. He might not know the hack, but he'll stick with it until it's fixed.

Wow. So my earliest notions of manhood were this weird mishmash of my, my super strength, superhuman strength embodied in my granddad, amazing, uh, facial features involved, you know, that, that I knew were out there and, and, and my dad's patients, um, that, that still does inform some of some of what i think honestly um and we were chatting you know earlier about that uh oh god there was a terrible article in the new york times i forget who wrote it it's called the modern man it was called it was called the modern man and it was just a list there's a good-natured list of qualities today that define the modern man.

And, I mean, one of them was like, you know, the modern man today looks after his children's electronic devices and makes certain they're plugged in before the family goes to bed. The modern man today would never own a gun. He has no reason for it. The modern man today would never own a gun. He has no reason for it. The modern man today, and it goes down the list, and I just thought there's not a single one of these things I agree with. So as a good-natured rejoinder, I wrote, the man's man, you know, a man's man owns a gun. He owns a gun because he knows it's the best way to protect himself and his family. He also makes sure he can disassemble it and put it back together. He's accomplished with it on the range, and he understands what safety is. A madman lets his children learn through cold experience how frustrating it is when their iPhone

isn't charged the next morning and goes to bed himself the following night confident in the knowledge that they'll be better for it. So anyway, that conversation, which I really just did. You posted an article about this. I posted the exact same thing with my rejoiners. Oh, interesting.

I'll have to see that. We'll have to link it up. It's somewhere out there in the ether, but 9 million people read it. Wow. What's it called? It's called The Man's Man. It's called Man's Man versus Modern Man. I'll have to link this up for sure.

But look, again, I wasn't trying to make a point. I was sitting home drinking Dos Equis at 9 o'clock on a Saturday, and I did it to amuse myself. Sure. But then like so many other things, I went on Facebook and I posted it. And then the next morning. It blew up. Right. So now I'm on Good Morning America talking about it.

An article you wrote. Yep. Wow. Happens all the time. And was this your truth then? Was it more cheeky or was it this is what you believe? Well, look, everything about me is a little true and a little cheeky. Cheeky truth.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in the same way that we can define what a good job means in 2016, we can define what a real man is. We can define what a real woman is. We can have, we can't really define it, who the hell are we. Right, right, right. But we can talk what a real man is. We can define what a real woman is. We can have, we can't really define it, who the hell are we, but we can talk about it and we can challenge existing ideas and paradigms and all that stuff. What do you think it is now then? If you said the definition of a man or masculinity, what's a masculine man today in your mind? Well, I do think to be fair to the times, you know there there is a measure of femininity

and masculinity uh you know i think anything purely masculine or purely feminine is is is purely unpleasant um but but i i think like anything else uh at some point i mean i think we we we kind of all did the the goatee thing we kind of all did the goatee thing. We all kind of did the metrosexual thing. Food man's shoe. Right? We all did that. Stingers.

I did everything. Look, I mean, we laugh about it. There's a site I'm sure you've seen, you know, the art of manliness. Uh-huh. Yeah. And, you know, when you look at just the facial hair over the generations, it's hysterical. Yeah. I think Brett is the one that owns that.

It's a podcast as well called The Altered Manalist. Yeah. It's a total quick tangent. But I had a buddy when I was living in New York going on auditions and doing whatever you could do. He was so excited. He came home and he booked a job. It was for doers. So it's just a model. It's a print ad. And, um, and I said, well, what'd you do to get it? He said, I had nothing. I'd stand there and smile. They, they're, they're, they're

four of us and they're, they're, they're going to shoot us on the stoop of this brownstone and it's going to be a great ad. And I said, oh, well, I'll look for it. So the next day he goes and they're, there are three other dudes and they all kind of look like him and they all have a goatee. They all sit down and they're all looking like the director's like, ah, make it, butch it up a little. Look tough. They're all looking at the camera with all this attitude at the camera like this. There's a big doers thing and it's a great looking shot and there's the doers. doers thing and it's a great looking shot and there's the doers but the caption the caption says okay we get it we've all done the goatee thing now can we just get real that's

funny doers so it sucks to be hired to be a punchline and and not know it's like showing up in a herpes ad. You don't know it. And then you're on the subway and you're like, ah, crap. I didn't need to see that. Right. Okay, so to finish what you were saying about masculinity. You looked at times.

You were saying you don't want too much masculinity, you want too much femininity. It's a little bit of both. I think a man in 2016 has the obvious overt, and forgive me, this is sexist, but a man looks and acts like a man in many traditional ways. However, the most important component is he knows who he is. And this is a wildly overused word, but it really matters. He's authentic. He's authentic to himself.

The reason Donald Trump is where he is right now, in my opinion, has almost nothing to do with anything that's political or being discussed. It's simply this guy doesn't need this job and he's never pretended to, and he's love him or hate him. He's been fairly consistent in his entire life. And we're so starved. We're so starved to see somebody tell us the truth about something. At least how they feel about it. I wonder, even if I disagree with you politically or socially or whatever it is, if you've made a reasonable case that's consistent and congruent with your view of the world, and you happen to be

a male of the species, then I would call you a man. Men own their opinions. They make a reasonable case for it. They're willing to be corrected. They're willing to be wrong. They're open to the possibility that their head could very well have somehow gotten up their ass, but they don't apologize for that. They say, this is what I think. This is why I think it. And look, when your actions and your words over time line up in a predictable way, I just think that, you know, I mean, I hate just to assign it to a man, but to answer your question, yeah, that's a very, very, very important quality. But I also think

it's a critical quality of being a woman too. Interesting. And just to, since you brought it up, I heard a rumor that you were like a while ago, potentially a vice president candidate. Was that, that was in talks on social media anyways. Was that actually something that was happening or did you know about this? Yeah, I knew. I got calls. Really? I got calls. You mean you got calls from Trump's team or you got calls from just random friends like, hey. No, it wasn't. I never heard from anybody on Trump's side and I never heard from anybody on the Democratic side. What I heard from were from a lot of groups

that started forming around a third party or a tri-party. So, yeah, the vice presidential thing got bandied around a little bit, but I, of course, never took it seriously. But I was interested in the conversation around a tri-party. Interested in the conversation, not in, I'm not your guy.

Right, right. I'm not your guy. You'll listen and have the conversation. Yeah. No, look, I'm very interested in the space and on a personal level, I'm vested in the conversation, but on a professional level,

I'm not a politician and I don't care to... If Trump was like, I want you to be my vice president, if I win, would you have considered it? Well, I wouldn't have said no, but I would have said why. Well, I mean, to cut to the chase, I don't see it happening. Right.

I have less experience than you, and you don't have any experience at all. Right. I mean, what are we going to do? We're a couple of guys who hosted a couple of reality shows. What are we going to do? You know, I mean, you've proven going to do? We're a couple of guys who hosted a couple of reality shows. What are we going to do? You know, I mean, you've proven, you know, I am the – Are we going to run the country? I'm an apprentice by trade, and you're a billionaire. Oh, my gosh.

It's just – there's another movie you've never seen. It's called it's called Bullworth. OK, it's it stars Warren Beatty and Warren Beatty is diagnosed. He's a congressman or a senator or something. He's diagnosed with some terminal disease and he just decides, well, he hires somebody to assassinate him. He hires somebody to assassinate him. And then while he's waiting to be assassinated, he just starts telling the truth about the country, about immigration, about racism, about all these things. And he immediately shoots to the top of the polls. But now, of course, you've got a problem because he's paid somebody to kill him. watching Bullworth right now. We're watching and I don't mean that specifically about Donald Trump. I just mean we're looking at a country who is so desperate to hear something. Truth from someone.

Congruency. Something's just like my God. It's not this like perfect polished thing that you want to hear or that they think you want to hear but actually what's on their mind. Right. And look, I just make that point to say I'm under no illusions of grandeur. Nobody's, nobody's talking to me about running for the Senate or the Congress or, or something bigger because they think I'm qualified. They're talking to me about it because dirty jobs had a component to it that every single, whether it's the gubernatorial or the general, every two years we see it play out, this terrible kabuki on TV where the people who are running for office, what do they do?

They go to the factories. They go to the construction sites. They do the photo op. I still remember Hillary in some bar in Western Pennsylvania four years ago doing shots of rye with steelworks. Which she would never, ever do. It seems fake. What are you doing? What are you doing? Seems manufactured. It's that desperate attempt to connect with real people that's such an important part of getting elected.

What was Dirty Jobs at base? At base, it was a TV show. But what really happened? What happened was a giant connection. Week after week after week, a guy named Mike constantly was showing up in towns you couldn't find on a map to meet people you didn't know existed, to try his hand at a job that you didn't know about. What could be more common? What could be more humble? What could be more ordinary? And by the end of the day, the viewer sees that anonymous person magnified, and they

see Mike in a subordinate role who was learning and getting schooled. And then what do they do at the end of the day? They do a shot of rye. They have a beer. They laugh, they talk, they hug, they shake, and they go their separate ways. It looked like in some weird way that I was actually running for something in hindsight. Of course I wasn't. That just happened to be the DNA of the show. But in a world where people are desperate to find something that looks and feels authentic, that looked pretty authentic. Yeah. You were the guy.

Crazy. And I think, what was it, Forbes said you were in the top 10 most trustworthy celebrities three years in a row. Crazy. So maybe that's like, hey, we don't trust this guy, but maybe we'll trust Mike. Maybe we'll trust. Why would a guy in a sewer lie to us? Right?

That trustworthy thing is really fascinating. And as much as I'd like to take credit for it, because I like to see myself as fairly trustworthy, the company you keep matters. Discovery, at the time anyway, and today still to some degree, but at the time they were the number one trusted brand of nonfiction. At that same time, I was the official spokesperson for Ford. Ford trucks. Yeah. Ford automobiles. I remember those commercials, yeah.

Ford parts and service. This is 2009, right after Alan Mulally just said, actually it's 2007, 2008, after he just said, no, no, I'm not taking the money. Ford, every other American automobile maker took the bailout. Alamo Lally and Ford didn't. So suddenly, I'm working for Ford. Ford Tough. Ford Tough, the company that said, nope, we'll do it on our own. We don't need your tax money.

Discovery, I'm crawling through sewers. I'm in a Ford truck. I'm with two brands that people are just loving at the time. And I'm not taking myself too seriously. So suddenly, you know, the people who test these things and evaluate these things look around and say, oh, studies show he's not an asshole. So maybe we should get him as president.

Wow. That's great. Right? Nuts. So you never did talk to Donald. Nothing ever happened with him. The only thing that happened with Donald Trump, you know, I raised money for my foundation. Right.

And a couple weeks ago, like, I'll read these short stories I do on my podcast at my dining room table. And one day I was wearing a robe. And, you know, at the end of each podcast, not all of them, but sometimes I'll auction something off for the foundation. We've raised nearly $4 million auctioning off crap from my garage. In fact, it's called crap. Collectibles rare and precious, right? So I said, somebody suggested I auction off my bathrobe. So I said, fine.

It's a bathrobe for sale. Because you wear your bathrobe in your Facebook videos I've seen a couple times. Sometimes, yeah. So somebody paid $8,000 for my bathrobe. Amazing. So I write, hey, you know what? If this is how it's going to go, Donald Trump, why don't you send me a bathrobe, an autograph, and we'll raise enough money, we'll close the skills gap.

But I also said, hey, Bernie, send me one of those rumpled blazers you wear. Or Hillary, send me some pantsuits or something. I'll put anything on. Anyway, nobody did anything but Donald. Donald sent me an autographed bathrobe. And I auctioned it off the next week for $17,000. Wow. So, you know, my worlds are very, very messy.

But I do what I can to raise money. That's cool. For these work ethic scholarships. That's cool. And, uh, that's how I do it. Um,

I'm curious about fame and you've built this audience over time. You've got this huge podcast. You were a show for 10 years. You were on many other shows before that. You do voiceover for every show on TV. It seems like in every documentary, you know, your voice is everywhere.

If there's a wildebeest trying to get across the vast reaches of the barren Serengeti, the odds are good I'm telling you about it. Exactly. How have you managed this audience, this responsibility over time, these people that trust you? All these people that trust you in America and around the world, have you been able to facilitate your own journey through that and not let it get the best of you or not let it, if you have too big of an ego or, you know, because I think there's a lot of people listening that want

to build their audience. So what thoughts do you have on that? Well, early on, I said somewhat publicly and now somewhat embarrassingly that I'd sooner push hot needles in my eyes than send out a tweet or face on a book. And I've been called on that obviously many times since. But when I said it, I meant it because I just thought it was a terrible way to curry favor. And I just didn't want to do it. But around that same time when Dirty Jobs was going on the air, Discovery said, Hey, you know, the whole digital space is important to us. And if we build you a chat room,

would you talk to your viewers? And I said, sure. And that turned out to be, um, a major in hindsight, one of the biggest things that ever happened because, you know, I'd go to Oklahoma city and I'd work with, you know, wildcatters during the day. And I go back to my motel six completely just, just, just beat to hell and die. It's awesome. Too tired to even take a shower, but I'd lie down and I'd log on and fans of the show would ask me questions and I'd answer them. And we started having this very, very, uh, robust conversation in this little chat room

over time. Um, a million threads evolved from this over time. But in the beginning, what I started doing was saying, who do you know that has a dirty job and why should I go see them? And so halfway through season one, Dirty Jobs started to be programmed by the viewer. And that relationship happened in that little chat room. It was like your casting. That's exactly what it was. Wow. And so what that led to was a call at the end of every episode of Dirty Jobs.

Go to the chat room and share your- Exactly. And so now I'm having actual conversations, but not just about the show. I would talk about anything. I was utterly transparent. I was talking about my most important characters in literature. I was talking about the changing face of the modern day proletariat vis-a-vis the digital divide. I was talking, we were doing dirty limericks, anything, right?

And it was always happening, usually in the middle of the night from a Motel 6 or a Super 8 or some little pit of despair off the frontage road in some godforsaken town. And so I became very close to the viewers of the show. And one day on, I think, the Today Show, somebody, I don't know if it was Matt Lauer or Charlie Gibson, one of those guys said, what's it like working for the Discovery Channel? And without even thinking, I said, oh, I don't work for the Discovery Channel. And they said, no? And I said, no, no, I work for the people in the chat room. I work for the people who watch the show. And that wound up mutating into some sort of headline,

and it caused a little bit of grief with Discovery. But actually, not much. Not much. Because I said the same thing about every show I've ever worked for. You work for the audience that's watching it. You work for them. Right. And the minute you don't, well, it doesn't mean the world's going to come off the hinges.

They're going to stop watching. That's right. There are a couple things between your paycheck and your performance. Yeah. And the big one is them. And so to start equating your paycheck with something that has nothing to do with your audience, that's a fundamental mistake that a lot of people, I think, in my line of work make. So, Jesus, what was your original question? I'm like Forrest Gump-ing my way through this whole thing.

I apologize. How have you managed yourself through building this audience over time without letting it get the best of you? I Caterpillar, I mean, there've literally been 14, 4500 companies to running a foundation to a TV show that launched 32 other shows for the shows I'm working on now. But every single thing, uh, if I, if I really walk it back aside from my grandfather and everything else we talked about goes back to asking a viewer, what do you think? What would you like to see? You know, and I'm sure you do it here. I mean, right. You're very social with this, but it doesn't do you any? What would you like to see? And I'm sure you do it here. I mean, right? You're very social with this, but it doesn't do you any good to interview people your audience doesn't care about. Absolutely.

I mean, I hope they're vaguely interested in me. Of course. But you know what I mean? Of course. Yes. I'm very protective of my audience. I get pitched all the time for people that want to come on and be interviewed or want to promote their book or whatever. And I'm like, this is the school of greatness.

It's not the school of pretty good. It's not the school of average. Or the school of your agenda. Yeah, exactly. It's like I have to think like, will all these people love this? Or will a majority of them get a lot of great information from this idea? Yeah. Or this person or whatever.

You have to – look, if you truly believe you work for them, then, then, then you really, it's not about abdicating your, your, your, your pride or being subservient to them. You know, no boss wants a kiss ass, right? No good one wants to suck up. Uh, but, but no boss wants to be disrespected either. Yeah. And it's so easy in our business to forget that. And so, so, you know, here, look, I'll tell you a story about this dog. This dog comes home from the pound. Right. And, and I don't know what the heck to do with him. Um, you know, he's in a, he's in an apartment where there are no dogs allowed. And I, and I got the dog dog, and I just love him.

And I didn't know what to do with him, so I take some pictures, and I put them on Facebook, and I say, I got a new dog. What should I name him? And the next morning, I get 94,000 suggestions. So I take the top six, and I take a pee pad, and I unfold the pee pad, and I set up a time-lapse camera, and I wrote the top six names, one in each square. We called it Puppy Poop Bingo. So the deal was, whatever name he crapped on, so he crapped on Freddy.

So that's Freddy. The moral of the story is not to get a dog and not to set up a camera and let him crap all over a pee pad. It's to ask the people you work for what they think. And so, you know, for what it's worth, I get three, four

million fans on Facebook now. And among many, many, many, many, many, many other things, hundreds of thousands of them know that story. And they know that I have a dog now whose name is Freddy because of them. And consequently, every Friday, you know, Freddy weighs in with either a photo or his view of the world. He's a smart aleck. But Fridays with Freddy becomes a thing.

And so, I don't know. smart aleck but fridays with freddie becomes a thing and and so i don't know it's a again it's kind of a squishy way of saying somewhere between the content you're creating and the beast you're trying to feed uh is is an engine and and that engine um spits out ideas right and and those ideas are who you really work for and they come from your listeners i love that great analogy as well with the dog. What do you feel is missing in your life? You've created so much. You've, you know, you've got this wealth, you've got the audience, you're doing the work you love. It seems like you seem extremely fulfilled in the work you're doing. Is there anything that's missing? Not really. I mean, well, that's a great question because it's impossible to answer without sounding either glib or what do they call it? Supercilious, right? I know there's nothing missing from my life, Lewis. You see, every could tell you that there's not a single thing in my life that couldn't benefit from massive action and, and, and real improvement. Butamist and, um, I don't have kids. And part of the reason I

don't have kids I think is, uh, is cause I'm selfish. You know, my, my parents did in my view, an amazing job of raising three boys. And of course I grew up right next to my grandparents who did an amazing job of raising two girls. And I'm just surrounded by amazing examples of what it takes to be a great parent. And honestly, I don't think I can measure up. It's a lot of work, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of giving up what you want. Yeah, and there are days when, you know,

I would never say I regret it, but there are days where it's obvious now. I'm 54 years old. And, you know, you years old. You tell yourself through your 20s and 30s there's nothing but time and you can always, always, always, always go another way. Now, no, I don't think so. You'll see this when you go to your 25th high school reunion. I don't know if you go to those things. I haven't yet. 15 was just the other year.

Good for you because you were born in 83. We were both born in March, by the way. That was March 16. March 18th. March 18th, really? I think it said March 6 on your Wikipedia page. I believe. March 18th. I wouldn't use the word believe in Wikipedia in the same sense, but at least I got my name right.

We're both Pisces. We're Pisces, so we're all sensitive and whatnot. Very intuitive, sensitive, yes. But at least I got my name right. We're both Pisces. We're Pisces, so we're all sensitive and whatnot. Very intuitive, sensitive, yes. But I'm getting toward the cusp there. What's the next one? The bull, Aries or something. Yeah, sure. I don't know. Anyway, what were we talking about?

Great question. I just forgot now. Oh, regrets. I've had a few, but then again. About kids, kids, kids. Yeah, no kids. No kids. But you know, everything has a way of coming back around sooner or later. And, you know, we were talking about QVC and how I completely left it in my youth. And after I got my Eagle, I was 17 or so, I didn't think about it for another 30 years. and somebody asked me if I would write a letter of congratulations to their – actually, no. Somebody asked me if I would write a letter of encouragement to their kid

who was two merit badges away from getting his Eagle Scout. And they asked me to do this publicly, you know, in the chat room that we were talking about. And, you know, there I am again drinking a couple of Negro Modellos one evening and I get this letter and I just decide to respond publicly. And I said, look, no, I'm not going to say anything to try and encourage your kid. But I will tell you this. Statistically, he ain't going to make it.

And when he falls short, he should take great comfort in the fact that he's with the crowd. Only one in 100 is going to punch through, and the Eagle Award is not designed to be a trophy for someone who needs to be dragged across the finish line. If he is not interested and you have been unable to inspire him, then it's entirely possible that he's just supposed to be one of the majority. Right. Well, that letter wound up getting posted all over the place.

And the Boy Scouts reached back and said, you know what? That level, no one ever talks publicly about that. And this was before the whole everybody gets a trophy. Yes. Or at least that turn of phrase had come about. But the sentiment, right, the sentiment was alive and well with helicopter moms and soccer moms and self-esteem and everything else. And the scouts, to their credit, really liked what I wrote. And then I started getting many, many, many requests to congratulate kids who did make their eagles.

That's cool. And so I had a letter that I sent out about that, and that made a big thing. And the point is, I don't have kids, but there are 3 million Boy Scouts now who, you know, they're like in my world. And there are a couple, 600,000 future farmers of America, right? Right. And SkillsUSA. a couple, 600,000 future farmers of America, right? And, and skills USA. So I'm up to my neck with three of the largest youth programs in the country. You're giving. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm trying honestly, um, and, and really no, no organization's perfect, but, but I think the

country, the country needs organizations like that for so many reasons. The situation at home for a lot of people's a mess, and when you look at how vocational education has been totally sucked out of high schools, these organizations

filled in that space in a lot of ways. So, I'm a fan. What are you most grateful for in your life recently? I got to tell you, this will really, really sound ham-fisted and a little pandering, but I'm really flattered by the way, I don't know you, you know,

but I like you, and I like what you're doing on your podcast. And I like the fact that you reached out. I like the fact that I have a seat at the grownup table. I'm not interested in politics, but it's very, very gratifying to move the needle. And so I have a little foundation. It's modest by most standards, but we've trained four, maybe 500 kids and grownups. What's it called?

MicroWorks. Yep. So MicroWorks focuses on jobs that exist that people aren't excited about having, and it awards work ethic scholarships to people who are willing to retool, retrain, relocate, and learn the skill that's in demand. people who are willing to retool, retrain, relocate, and learn the skill that's in demand. So I get letters every week from people from living up in North Dakota or down in the Gulf who are making $140,000 a year welding. Amazing.

$200,000 a year working on heavy equipment. Amazing. Right? Who barely made it out of high school. Barely. And so, you know, when you hear from kids, I just got a letter from a kid named, Jake was his name, 26 years old, working up in North Dakota. Family lives in Kansas City. Just had a second kid.

Paid for his house in cash. Right? Actually quit his job to freelance on the high plains because he can work as much as he wants. Is it perfect? No. He's not home every night. He comes home, uh, every three weeks for a week. Right. But what he's doing for his family, in my opinion, is somewhere between noble and heroic. Yeah. I mean, there's a 26-year-old kid with no college, no debt, who's saving money and situating himself and his family for a future.

And I just think that that's a – I just think that's a – back to your earlier question, if I were to give a better answer to what a man is, it's that it's that it's, it's, it's a combination of sacrifice and, and humor and, uh, fearlessness, you know, and,

and that quality really can exist in either gender. Sure. Uh, and has no, has no age requirement to it. But that's my better revised answer. Okay. You know. I like that.

Yeah. I like it. And you're grateful for? I'm grateful for the chance to tell you that story. And I'm grateful for the chance to be a cypher or an avatar. Yeah. Or I'm working on a new show now. I'm trying to sell it. But the working title is called People You Should Know.

And I know it's probably very similar to the mandate that drives your guest selection. Yes. And, you know, look, there are, what, eight, nine billion people walking around the planet. Studies show that some are better than others. Some are more interesting. Support groups show. Support groups show that the vast majority of these people, you don't want to be caught in an elevator with.

Exactly. But some of them are remarkable. And I've tried on dirty jobs, and somebody's got to do it. And with my own little podcast to, to introduce you to some, and I'm going to try and do that again with another show. Uh, but,

but a kid like Jake, you know, he, he would be the guest, the, the kind of guest that I would like to have, not exclusively of course, but you know,

but you can't, you just can't look through or past a man like that. Yeah. Quality man. It's just too important. Yeah. You know, but back to my granddad, you know, when he was in his prime, he was seen for what he was, a fixer, a provider, and a great intellect with no formal education. a provider and a great intellect with no formal education.

Today, that same man at that same point in his life with that same set of skills would be transparent. Yeah. He would be invisible to our society. We wouldn't know how to value him and we wouldn't know how to talk about him and we wouldn't know. We don't know where to put him. Yeah. So you went to the seventh grade and now you can build a house. Well, good for you. Good for you.

Right. You know, and what a shame, what a shame that one of the smartest people that, that I ever knew, uh, today would be more or less relegated to the tough break pile. Sure, sure, yeah. Well, we've got to wrap it up. I've got a couple final questions for you, but I feel like I could talk to you for hours and just listen to your story,

so I appreciate everything you've been sharing. It's been awesome. Thanks. But I want to make sure I get you out of here in the next five minutes. This is one of the questions I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths. Oh, God.

Three truths. So say this is the last day for you many, many at the end. It's called the three truths. Oh, God. Three truths. So say this is the last day for you many, many years from now. Yeah. Right? Great. You've said everything you want. You've done every show you want to do. You've written books.

You've presented. Whatever you want to do, you've done it. But for whatever reason, everything you've created has been erased, and no one has record of what you've said anymore or what you've put out in the world. It shows. It's gone. And everyone's there. It's the last moment for you, and they give you you've put out in the world. It shows it's gone. And everyone's there. It's the last moment for you,

and they give you a piece of paper and a pen. They say, well, you write down your three truths, the three things you know to be true about everything you've done that you would pass on to us since we don't have anything else to watch or listen that you've done in the past. Your three lessons that you would pass on to us.

Wow, dude. That's so much more involved than you're on a desert island with three movies. And this is what's coming up for you right now, obviously, you know. You're basically saying, give me three examples

of the best advice. Three principles that you would pass on to all the Boy Scouts that are there. Anyone who wants to read them. Sure. Find the hard thing and do it. Be wary of all earnestness.

That's actually not mine. That's from my favorite fictitious character, Travis McGee, created by John D. McDonald. Some more books you haven't read, damn it. I think you're going to have to read. Read The Deep Blue Goodbye, written in 1964. It's pulp fiction, but it's great pulp fiction. Sure. And the main character in one of these books

is asked by somebody what it is he's most suspicious of, and he goes on a long list of things. But the last one is, be wary of all earnestness. And I really believe that, because earnestness is different than sincerity. We all want to be sincere. We all want to be real. We want to be congruent. But the truth is, Lois, that's very easy to fake. So I'm paid to appear earnest. And so that's what spokesmen do that's what hosts do

that's what right so so look look beyond the performance and just be wary you know when things sound good

it doesn't mean they are right right so find the hard thing and do it be wary of all earnestness and I the best advice I ever got, it just occurred to me.

It actually came from my father years ago. And it's just one word, and it's duck. And I'm going to put that on my list, not because it's relevant at the moment to anyone, but because it will become relevant to everyone at some point. I was standing in the backyard as a boy and there was a game of horseshoes going on. And a guy named Kevin Randallette threw the horseshoe, and it got away from him. And I was talking to a kid named Charlie Baker, and my back was to Kevin. And Charlie's sitting right where you are now. And from the distance, I heard a crisp, well-modulated, manly, baritone voice say,

Doc! Now, what's interesting is I didn't know who the man was talking to. Right. But I recognized his voice as belonging to my dad. And while I had no reason to ignore him, I also had no reason to just randomly assume he was talking to me, but I did. And it's not because his advice was excellent. It's because it came from him at just the right time

and at just the right moment. And so I ducked. And a second later, that horseshoe hit Charlie Baker square in the face and broke his nose and knocked out a tooth. The horrible. So my dad still has a little bit of guilt from that. And I do too. But the, but the moral of the story is his nose of your head, right? It's like back of my head to the front of your face. I mean, and you know, if my dad were here, he would say, look, I was saying as a general rule, everybody's not. But the thing is, if you don't know the source of the advice, you're not going to duck because you wouldn't assume

it's being directed to you. And so somewhere on that piece of paper, I would try and articulate the importance of specificity, individuality, timing, and luck. Sure. And because it's my last day on earth, and because my entire body of work, in your example, has been retroactively erased from existence, I don't have a lot of time. So, right, I'm going to say, find the hard thing and do it. Be wary of all earnestness and duck.

And if I had room left on the paper, I would probably write a quick note of thanks. Explaining. No, I would just say thanks for the pen and the paper. It's nice knowing that even though this is all I'm going to leave behind, that if I didn't have the pen and the paper, I would have nothing. There you go. I have one final question for you before I ask the question. Mike, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for being an incredibly true, honest human being.

Thanks. This is the longest interview I've ever done. Really? I've ever done. I think maybe an hour 30 is usually about as far as I'll ever go. We usually go about an hour, hour 15. You think you're going to use any of this? We'll use it all.

Absolutely. Maybe there was one other one the same length, but I don't want to say ever. But it wasn't as interesting. It wasn't as interesting. Exactly. And I want to acknowledge you for your incredible journey. I think your story is really impressive in the fact that you continue to follow your curiosity and be true to yourself. Everything you've done, you've been true to yourself or you've said, oh, that's not true to me. Let me go do what I want to do right now. Oh, I went to QVC three times. Like you continue to follow through and you're genuine and honest along your journey. And your contribution for your work is so meaningful to so many people that you're a great symbol of inspiration for what's possible.

Thanks for us. So I want to acknowledge you for who you are, for our time together. I hope I get to ask you more questions in the future sometime. Anytime, Lewis. Honestly, I've done a lot of these and you're awfully good at it. I appreciate it. And you're going to go, well, if you're interested, you'll go as far as you want to go. But good for you for breaking your wrist at a time. It's the greatest blessing. It was a nightmare, but. Yeah. You just never know.

Never know. You know, there's a, oh, what is that? The road not taken, right? That's it. You never know. It's so tempting to look back and say, ah, let me tell you what the plan was. But the truth is, you Forrest Gump your way through your own career. Sometimes you break your wrist.

Sometimes you're in a sewer. Sometimes you let somebody name your dog. Sometimes, you know, you never know in the moment the impact of the thing until later. That's it. You've got a podcast. It's in the top seven right now in the world of iTunes. So congratulations. Thanks.

It's called The Way I Heard It. The Way I Heard It. Mike Rowe. Make sure you guys download the podcast. Listen to the ads from either. I go check out bobblehead.com now because of the way you explain it. I want to buy markers

because of how you even promote your ads. It's amazing. Well, every sponsor on the show is tied to my foundation. Yes. You get back to that foundation. And so. You get back to that. That's great.

It's simple. Check out your Facebook page. It's just Facebook slash Mike Rowe. Yep. You got great content there. Twitter, same thing, Mike Rowe, right? Yeah, it's out there. They just aggregate it.

Sure, sure, sure. I can't do anything, as this interview proves, in 140 characters or less. Right. So, the heck with that. Exactly. I need more room, man. There you go. Go to Facebook. Go everywhere.

Follow you. And the final question is, what is your definition of greatness? I'm afraid we actually already talked about it. Well, we kind of talked around it. But I think it's that congruency. I think it's, I think it's a moment in a life when action, word, and intention all line up. It can be as simple in a dialogue.

Communication is hard. Everybody takes it for granted. It's really hard. But the way you're nodding your head right now, when you're trying to make a point and you make it the way you want to make it, and the person listening goes, I know what you mean, and you believe they know what you mean. Not just faking it? Yeah, yeah. That's great. That's great.

Yeah. You know, it's such a simple, simple thing. But, you know, one of those experts on the human condition said, it's probably Carnegie, all problems are communication problems. All problems are communication problems. So to communicate effectively, yep, on my way, no worries. We're literally at the last second. No, no, I'm literally right in the middle of explaining how all problems are

communication problems, and we had a communication problem. There you go. I don't know. Perfect timing. If you're looking for a way to end. If you're looking for a sign. The only better way to end the interview is with Mr. Fred. There you go.

But yeah, man. Thanks for letting him crash. He was great. I don't know. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great.

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He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great.

He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great.

He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He was great. He Fred, any final words? Well, there you go. See, two ears, one mouth. I like it.

Put the call back and everything. Thanks. I appreciate it. You bet. There you have it, guys. A two-parter with Mike Rowe. I don't know if we've ever done another two-parter before, maybe with one or two other people. But again, I was fascinated with Mike and just wanted to continue asking the questions.

Luckily, he had a lot of time and we were able to chat it out for a while as bros in his studio. So make sure to check out the full video interview, the full audio interview, and the show notes at lewishouse.com slash 404 for this one. I appreciate you guys so very much. We've got some incredible guests coming up.

We've got one of the best dancers in the world. His name is Twitch. He is a superstar, been in a ton of movies and also the DJ for Ellen DeGeneres. We've also got Joshua Fields Milburn from The Minimalists. So if you are feeling hectic

or chaotic in your life or you've got too much in your space, learn about how to be a minimalist. We've also got Devon Franklin. Wow. This guy really inspired me a ton. He wrote a New York Times bestseller called The Weight, and he has produced a number of big films.

Also used to work with Will Smith as his intern early in his career, so got some interesting things there. We've also got one of the top spoken word poets in the world, Sekou Andrews, who's going to teach you how to become a better speaker, public speaker, and performer. And we've got the founder of CrossFit coming on, Greg Glassman. That's right. This one is big, guys. Super fun time with Greg.

Jay Abraham. If you want to learn how to build your business and 10X your business, the legendary godfather of strategic business marketing is coming on as well. Guys, an all-star lineup coming your way. If this is your first time here, make sure to subscribe to the School of Greatness on iTunes and also share this with your friends. Let me know what you think at Lewis Howes on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, everywhere online.

And this podcast is for you, for peak performers looking to get more out of business and life. If you have someone that you would like me to interview, someone who is at the top of the world at what they do, someone who is a peak performer, who is inspiring millions, and you want me to get more out of them to share with you, then tweet me at Lewis Howes and let me know your recommendation. Also, if you want me to tackle any specific topics, let me know as well over on Twitter or send me an email, lewishowes.com on my contact form there. I'm so pumped, so grateful for you guys. Make sure to consume this information and then take action with it in your life to improve

your life. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you. Bye.