The School of Greatness - 407 Living With Less: The Power of Being a Minimalist with Joshua Fields Millburn

Episode Date: November 16, 2016

"Question what adds value to your life." - Joshua Fields Millburn If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/407

This is episode number 407 with Joshua Fields Milberg. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the minimalist Joshua Fields Milburn on today's Super Pumps. Now for those that feel like you are overwhelmed

with too much stuff in your house, too many things, too many possessions, this is the episode for you to learn more about why less is more. Now Joshua Fields Milburn is a writer and a minimalist. He's the co-founder of the popular blog and podcast that gets millions of downloads and followers on the blog called The Minimalists, as well as the author of several books on the same topic. And he owns fewer than 288 things, people. That's right. Only 288 possessions total. possessions total. After losing his mom to lung cancer and his marriage ending in the same month, he found minimalism as a lifestyle and quit his corporate job to become a writer.

He has conducted several lifestyle experiments since his switch to minimalism, like living without internet at his home, living without a phone for two months, living a year without purchasing material possessions at all, living without television at home, living without goals, and so much more that we'll talk about on this episode. We dive in deep, guys. We talk about why humans are so wired to be dissatisfied, how Joshua got into a half a million dollars of debt while he was working a high-paying, successful career job, what minimalism actually is versus what people think it is, the difference between consumption and compulsion, how Joshua runs an online business without having

internet in his home at all, and so much more. Guys, I know you're going to love this one. It's a powerful episode. No matter if you have lots of possessions, a little possessions and somewhere in the middle, I just felt cleansed. I was talking to Joshua and I felt like I learned so much about why we hold on to things and what happens to our mind, our body, and our productivity when we start letting go. Ladies and gentlemen, this is episode number 407. Make sure to share with your friends. All the show notes, the full video is back at lewishouse.com slash 407. And without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Joshua Fields Milburn. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast.

We've got Joshua Fields Milburn in the house. Good to see you, man. If this table wasn't between us, we'd be hugging right now. That's right. We're both huggers. Definitely huggers. We're both from Ohio. Amen.

You're from Dayton. I'm from Delaware. Yes. So very similar. About an hour, 10 minutes away, I think. Definitely huggers. We're both from Ohio. Amen. You're from Dayton. I'm from Delaware. Yes. So very similar, about an hour, 10 minutes away, I think they are. Have you ever been to Delaware? I have not been through Delaware, no. I've spent a lot of time in Columbus, though. Yeah, so it's about 20 miles north of Columbus.

Okay. And I lived in Columbus for a little bit. And you are a writer and a minimalist. Yes. You've got the Minimalist blog with your partner, your writing partner. And you guys have created a movement, man. You guys get almost 5 million unique visitors a year. You've got many bestselling books. Whenever you travel the country or the world, you get hundreds, if not thousands of people to show up to hear you guys speak and talk about

minimalism. And why did you get into it? Because I read your story about your mom going through a challenging experience and your marriage going through a challenging experience. Sure. Can you tell us why you got into minimalism? I'm 35 years old now and about seven years ago. If we do the math there, I was 28. I had achieved everything I ever wanted. The six-figure salary back in Dayton. It's a pretty big deal in Dayton too. In Dayton, Ohio. I was really doing that.

I know, right? And so I had the six figure salary. I had the big suburban house with, with more toilets than people. And I had, uh, the closets full of expensive clothes, the luxury cars, plural, all the stuff that was supposed to make me happy. the luxury cars, plural, all the stuff that was supposed to make me happy. And I didn't necessarily feel fulfilled, but I just kept, I knew I was always one promotion, one paycheck, one purchase away from achieving happiness someday in some hypothetical future that was just around the corner. And if I could get this, then I would be happy. And that started well, well before that. I mean, I, I grew up really poor, uh, in Dayton on, on welfare and food stamps, and we didn't have a lot of money and there was a lot of drugs and

alcohol in the house. And it was, you know, a dysfunctional household before that word dysfunctional was cool. And so we grew up really poor. And I said, I don't want to live this life, right? And so by age 18, I circumvented the whole college path and just went and got a sales job. And I realized... Didn't go to school. No, no. Yeah. I just realized...

I almost dropped out of high school. No, no. Yeah. I just realized I almost dropped out of high school and I realized that, that I, if I worked six or seven days a week, 60, 70, 80 hours a week, you can make good money even as a 19 year old, right? You're, you're, you're in sales and I was making $50,000 a year by age 19 in Dayton, Ohio. And you're like, okay. But then I was noticed that I was spending $65,000 a year by age 19 in Dayton, Ohio. And you're like, okay. But then I was noticed that I was spending $65,000 a year. And I had my first experience with debt at, at, at age 19. And I said, oh, okay, well I thought $50,000 a year would make me happy. Not student loan debt, a different type of debt. Right, right. Yeah. It was, it was credit card debt. It was just consumer debt, right? You know, there's, uh, there's $12 trillion in consumer debt in our country right now.

$12 trillion. That's not including student loans. No, that part of that is student loans. So student loans, mortgages, cars, credit cards. The average American has four credit cards in his or her wallet. uh, four credit cards in his or her wallet. The, the, uh, one in 10 Americans has 10 or more active credit cards in his or her wallet. One in 10 Americans has 10 or more. I had 14. And so, so I continued to climb that corporate ladder because I realized that, that, you know, what? $50,000. I thought it was going to make me happy, but it's not. I'm spending 65. Maybe I need to adjust for inflation. Right? Sure.

So when I started making 65,000, of course, I was spending 80,000. That's not enough. It's never enough. Right? And so by the time I was making six figures, I was spending even better than that. So I had massive amounts of debt. I had six figures worth of debt, not counting my mortgage. If you have my mortgage in there, it was about half a million dollars in debt. And I felt overwhelmed. And so I kept trying to pacify myself the same way many Americans do with stuff, the accumulation of stuff to try to fill this void that I felt inside. But of course, that didn't fill the void. It basically widened the void. And so I felt more discontent and stress and overwhelmed. And so I was working more and I forsook the things that were, that

were most important to me. Right now I said the certain things were important to me. I said my health was important, right? But I, I weighed, when'd you work out? Right. I weighed 80 pounds more than I weigh now. Wow. Uh, and I said my relationships were, were important to me, but really I was spending most of my time with those said my relationships were important to me, but really, I was spending most of my time with those tertiary relationships, the networking buddies, the executives, the coworkers. And there's nothing wrong with those people. I mean, many of them were great people, but they didn't share the same values that I shared. And because of that, I wasn't allocating time to the people closest to me,

my, my wife or, uh, to my family or my closest friends, because I figured, oh, they'll understand, right? I'm off being successful. By age 27, I was the youngest director in my company's 140 year history. I had 150 retail stores that I was responsible for. I know that's really ironic with the whole minimalism thing. Now the 150 retail stores that I was responsible for. Uh, I know that's really ironic with the whole minimalism thing. Now the 150 retail stores, but I was on this, which company was this? It was a telecom company in the Midwest. Yeah. And, uh, so I was, I was going through, I was just going through the motions of continuing to climb the ladder. And I, there were these guys who I really aspired to be like, and I had this whole plan laid out for myself, right. It was going to be a vice president by age 32, a senior vice president by age 35,

a C-level executive by age 40, and then you're set, right? But as I climbed this ladder, I got closer to these guys and realized that many of them were kind of miserable. They were on their third marriage. My boss had his second heart attack. I worked with a guy who was 30 years old. He was three years older than me who had his first heart attack at age 30. And, and so of course what I tell myself, but I'll be different, right? I'm not going to be like those guys, but if you follow the same recipe, you're going to get the same pie that they've baked. And so I realized, you know what, I need to make some changes, but I don't know what. And then in 2009, when I was 28, my mother died and my marriage ended both in the same month. Holy cow. And these two events forced me to look

around and start to question what had become my life's focus. And I realized I was so focused on so-called success and achievement and especially on the accumulation of stuff, the trophies of success. Like, look at me. I have two Lexuses and I have this, I have that, I have the bigger house and, and, and. The golf membership or whatever. Yeah, the racquet club membership, actually. And so I had these things. And here's the thing I want to get across. There's nothing inherently wrong with stuff. We all need some stuff. The problem isn't consumption.

The problem is this compulsory consumption. Buying things because that's what we think we're supposed to do. We've been sold this meme of the American dream. If you get this, then you will be happy, as if there is a template for happiness. And in fact, I think that's one of the bigger problems is we are chasing happiness. For the longest time, that's what I did. I chased happiness when, and that forced me to really forsake what was important. In fact, I was at a point in my life when I was very narrowly successful, right? Like I had the job title, but I wasn't, I wasn't broadly successful. And it's because there wasn't a lot of meaning in what I was doing. We all have to earn a living. I understand that. But I was so focused on just accumulating more

money and status and identity. My whole life was wrapped up in that identity. I mean, when you meet someone, what's one of the first questions they ask you? Well, they ask you, what do you do? I don't ask that question. one of the first questions they ask you. Well, they ask you, what do you do? I don't ask that question. Exactly. Right. Well, and so when I was, you know, and I had the bigger problem for me is I had this impressive job title, right? Because when you think about that question, like what, what does it mean? Like, it's, it's such a broad question. What do you do? I drink water. I walk down the street. I go to concerts. I read books. Oh, you're asking me, where do you work? How much money do you earn? What's your job title? So I can compare you to me on the socioeconomic ladder. Now we

don't posit the question that way, because if we did, we'd sound like a real jerk. If I said, well, how much money do you make and where do you work? You'd be like, well, wait a minute. Like that's a weird question. Why are you asking me? So instead we used to just say, what do you do? And then we're supposed to recite our job title and then spend 15 minutes talking about something we may or may not be passionate about. And so I, I didn't experiment when I was back in the corporate world. And when I said, okay, people keep asking me, like, what do you do? And I need to untether from this identity. And the only way for me to untether from this identity is to let go

of that answer. And so when I did this for a year and when people said, what do you do? I'd say, I'm really passionate about writing. See, for the past decade, I had written fiction and that was really the thing I was passionate about. I really enjoyed doing. Now, notice I didn't say I'm a writer because then you start getting the accusatory questions, right? You get the, Oh really? Um, you're a writer. Uh, who's your publisher? Who's your agent? Have you written anything I would have read? Or, or you, Oh, so you're saying you don't have a job, right? Right. And, and so I would just, instead of talking about the, the now, and I'm a writer, I would talk about the verb, what I'm actually passionate about doing, creating. And for me, that was writing. And I'd flip the question around. Instead of saying,

what do you do? I'd say, what are you passionate about? And that would change the whole trajectory of our conversation. Someone would say, oh, I'm passionate about snowboarding. They might be an accountant, but they're passionate about snowboarding or they're passionate about playing basketball or whatever it may be. The conversation is much richer at that point. Yes. Yes. It can connect and relate in different areas. I always ask, what are you excited about? Yes. Right now in your life, what are you most excited about in your life? Yeah. And that brings up the same thing usually about what they're passionate about. Yes. I'm excited about this

passion project of mine. Uh-huh. Something, something I'm working on or, you know, something that my family's going through, my kids are doing, whatever. It's something that I'm excited about. And sometimes it can be your vocation. That's okay. I just talked about an accountant earlier. Our accountant back in Missoula, Montana, he is passionate about accounting. Now, I don't know how someone could personally be passionate. I could not be.

They love numbers. They love figuring out the solutions, solving the problems. Now, my guess is knowing you, it'd be very difficult for you to be passionate about accounting, right? I would not love it. Yeah. Yeah. And same for me. I'd be hard for me to be passionate about accounting. Now there are other people who are passionate about horseback riding, right? I couldn't see myself being passionate about horseback riding either. And that's okay. The, the, the key is that like, there isn't one thing that we were born to do with our lives, right? You weren't born

to be an astronaut or a yoga teacher or an accountant. The truth for me was that what I was doing as a vocation didn't necessarily align with my values, with my beliefs, with my interests, with my desires. And as I started to figure out what my values were, I realized that what I was doing with my time didn't align with the person I wanted to become the person I aspired to be. And so after those two events happened with me, my mother died, my marriage ended, I stumbled across this thing called minimalism. And it started with a guy named Colin Wright. We were talking before. He's a guy who moves to a new country every four months. And everything he was passionate about for him. That was travel. And so he writes about his travel experiences and, and that was really cool, but I didn't want to just be this traveling guy that just goes. Yeah. And so maybe that's what minimalism was. I thought at first, but then I stumbled across guys like, like Leo Babalta and his wife, Eva, and their six kids. And I said, Oh, there's minimalist families. Wait a minute. They live in society. They're not just like wandering around. Yeah. Yeah. And you know,

they're not off the grid or anything. They actually live in the city, right? They have a laptop. They have a cell phone. Yes. Yeah. And although they don't have to, the question is like, what actually adds value to your life? And I realized that, that I owned a lot of stuff. Did you know the average American household has 300,000 items in it? No way. 300,000. But I think most of us aren't hoarders. Uh, we, we just, we hold on to a lot of stuff. We hold on to all these supposed memories, right? And I know that's what I was doing. So my mom did when I went to deal with her stuff. And I realized that, you know what, some of this stuff actually adds value to my life, but I don't know what. And so I started small

because I had attachment to so many things in my life. I had given so much meaning to my stuff. And I said, I need to try to get rid of some of this. Like some of it's in the way. I don't know what, what's actually adding value. And so over the course of 30 days, I just started, I said, I'm going to let go of one thing a day, one item a day, each day for 30 days. And what, what would happen if that, if, if I did that? Well, of course you're not going to put a big dent in 300,000 items. Now I, I probably still had, I had 300,000 items, but I was a very well organized hoarder. So like it wasn't, I wasn't a candidate for the TV show necessarily. Detailed and boxes labeled. Yeah. There was an ordinal system of bins. And, and, and, and so yes, there was a lot of stuff

that was very well hidden. Basically it was organized hoarding. And so I said, I'm gonna get rid of an item a day for 30 days. Well, of course, once you get momentum, I got rid of way more than 30 items in the first 30 days. I don't know if I'd do that. Cause I would, I just want to get rid of all of it at once. I'd be like, let's just purge it all. Go through this room, you know, right now. Well, that's actually great because, so I spent about eight months getting rid of, so from that beginning, it took me about eight months to radically simplify my life. And I, over those eight months, I got rid of about 90% of my possessions. Still 50,000, I don't know, whatever.

Yeah. Right. It's like, I don't, I don't know what's left. It's certainly not like Colin who owns, you know, 52 items and they all fit in his backpack or whatever. Uh, for me, it was like, you can come to my house today and you're going to be like, Oh, this guy's really tidy. You're not going to say, Oh my God, this guy's a minimalist. Right. And, and what adds value to my life today may, may be different five years from now or whatever. When I first embraced minimalism, I was 28 years old. Seven years later, I have a three-year-old, I have a partner. Our needs are appreciably different from when I was a single guy sort of out living on my own. Although it's not, my values aren't different. And I think that's

what's important is identifying what is important in my life and what is going to, what items, what material possessions are going to augment that experience and not get in the way. Yes. And so letting go allowed me to figure out the paradox of minimalism is I get far more value from the material items I own now

than by watering them down with hundreds of thousands of items. It's kind of like you were the original magic guide of tidying up, right? Like that book came out like a year ago, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, when Ryan and I were, we were on a book tour for our second book, Everything That Remains, and I think it came out right around that same time. And that thing blew up, man. It really did. And I think a lot of the professional organizers really get it that, that scene of, I always say the easiest way to organize your stuff is to get rid of most of it.

Yes. I think professional organizers understand that. I think the problem that we run into with us amateurs and me being an amateur organizer, uh, uh, what I, what I've realized is that most people just try to cover up the problem by organizing. And this is what I did. I'd go to the container store and buy all these containers and have this whole system for hiding stuff in my basement. You didn't need the stuff in the first place. Exactly. Right. And so when I simplified my life, people at work started coming up to me and saying, you know what, you seem less stressed. You seem so much calmer. And I didn't jump up and say, look at me, I'm becoming a minimalist and all of you need to too. I wasn't out proselytizing. I wasn't out trying to convert anyone to minimalism. I just want to share a recipe that's worked really well for me in hopes that some people could tweeze out a few ingredients and apply it to their own life in some way. And so, so after I let go, you know, my best friend of 20 something years, a guy named Ryan

Nicodemus, uh, we worked together, we climbed the corporate ladder together. We knew each other since we were fat little fifth graders. And he came to me one day and he said, why the hell are you so happy? And, and I said, let me talk to you about this thing called minimalism. And I explained how I'd let go and sort of purge 90% of my possessions over the last eight months. And he's like, he was like you, because he's like, you spent eight months getting rid of your stuff. Like, that sounds really awesome.

I want to do it now. Yeah. Right. And I'm like, okay. He's like, how can I become a minimalist? In a week. Yeah, pretty much. And so he came up with this idea called a packing party, where the easiest way to start

to deal with your stuff, and you know this, whenever you move, you realize like, oh, I've got a lot of stuff to move, right? So he boxed up everything in his 2000 square foot condo in Dayton, Ohio. And I mean, literally every three, he had three bedrooms, two bathrooms, two living rooms, a single guy with a cat and two living rooms. And he's like, why do I have all this stuff? So he boxed up everything as if you were moving, put it all in his second living room, stacked halfway to his 12 foot ceiling and said, okay, over the next three weeks, I'm going to unpack only the items I truly need. And I don't know what's in all these boxes for sure. But

so that first night he's unpacking a toothbrush and some toothpaste and then clothes for work the next day, a bed and bed sheets. He even packed up his furniture, like everything as if he were moving. And over the course of about three weeks, he had unpacked about 20% of his stuff, but 80% of his stuff was still in boxes. He looked at this mountain of stuff. I remember going over to his condo and he's like, Josh, I don't even remember

what's in most of these boxes. All of these things that I worked so hard for over the last decade, it's supposed to make me happy, but it's not doing its job. And so he donated or sold all of it. And about a month later, he came to me and he said, I think some other people would find value in this message. And Josh, you've written for a while. Do you think you could write some nonfiction stuff? And so we started a website. We didn't even know it was called a blog at the time. Uh, yeah. I always see your partner. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Ryan, uh, Ryan said, yeah, I think we

could share this. And so we, we started the minimalist.com and that was, it was about six years ago. And, uh, and I think the cool thing is people started to find value in, in that message. We were still working in the corporate world at the time and, and still letting go and realizing you could start to, you could live a regular life without, without, uh, you know, being a hermit or a nomad or an ascetic or a monk or something like that. Yeah. Why do you think humans are so wired to be dissatisfied? I think so. So they did an experiment with experiment with some chimpanzees a few years ago. And it's interesting because if you look at, if you give a chimpanzee a banana, it's going to eat a banana, right? I mean, it's wired to do that. We're all wired to eat, right? And if you give it enough bananas to eat and share, it will eat and share the bananas. If you give it enough bananas to eat and share it will eat and share the bananas

if you give it a horde of bananas it will try to kill other chimpanzees that try to take it and i think we're like a chest of them like a ton of them yeah yeah like like if you fill this room here with with bananas it will try to fight off and kill other chimpanzees. They want to take one. Yeah. Yeah. We don't know why exactly, but, but we, but we know that, that there's something about this overabundance of stuff that, that this scarcity, this idea of scarcity comes, starts to come into play. And, and, and we literally will hoard. And I think it's the same psychology with, with material possessions. People do that with money too and other things. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with money. I mean, I'm certainly

not allergic to money. Um, but, but it's no longer the primary driver for doing what I do. And I no longer worry about money the same way I used to because I'm much more intentional with the decisions that I make with my money. And, and I mean, I think we all have to pay the bills. And so sometimes that requires a nine to five or starting a business or, or doing something that may not be your ultimate passion project. doing something that may not be your ultimate passion project. But for me, anything I do to earn money, it has to align with my values. And if it doesn't, then I have to be willing to walk away from that and find something else. Why do you think we keep buying stuff even though we know it's not going to fill the holes?

I think advertising does a very good job of making us desire things and making us feel not good enough unless we have it or not hungry for a food we didn't know existed. And so the average person sees 5,000 advertisements a day. So that's what a million or so a year. And we are indoctrinated by these things. And so I don't think advertisements are inherently bad, but I think seeing that many messages, that many discrete bits of input every single day is inherently problematic. And so the question is, how can I turn the volume down on that so that I can make more deliberate decisions with my attention?

Because it's not just money we're spending. It's time. It's attention. These are other resources that are even more important than money. What about the Internet? How do you think the Internet's increased consumerism? technology, it's weird because it seems a bit quixotic to think that we can fix our problem of consumption with a different type of consumption, right? And so, a friend of mine named Cal Newport, are you familiar with Cal? Sounds familiar.

He wrote a book called So Good They Can't Ignore You. I've heard of it. And he wrote a book recently called Deep Work. He just had a TEDx talk come out this past month called Quit Social Media. And he advocates for just quitting, getting off social media altogether. Now, full attention, to give us these ephemeral bursts of pleasure, these likes and retweets and shares and whatever else to keep coming back for more. It's tantamount to having a slot machine because you're constantly pulling to see if you've won. The problem is though, it's now we're carrying around the slot machine in our pocket all day and constantly pulling that lever to see if I've won. The problem is though, it's now we're carrying around the slot machine in our pocket all day and constantly pulling that lever to see if I've, I've won more attention. And so I don't think that's inherently bad either, but I think it can be problematic if that is the

purpose that we use it for. I, I'm not as, as strict as someone like Cal would be. I find value in social media. I use it as a platform to disseminate information and to communicate with others. But I can see how it would be problematic for many people, including myself. I've done some pretty interesting experiments over the last six years. What are the experiments you've done? You've gone without a phone for a few months, right? I did. So when I first became a minimalist, I said, okay, I'm going to work hard. I'm paying down my debt. So I moved to this tiny $500 a month apartment in Dayton.

Um, and I just started going crazy. I'm paying off all my debt. Right. Cause I said, I don't want to be tied to this lifestyle anymore in order to be, to not be tied to this career. I need to be able to pay off this debt. And so I went on the, the ramen noodle diet, not literally, but... $1,000 a month lifestyle.

Yes. Yeah. I spent as little as I could so that I could get out of debt and no longer be tied to the same obligations. And so when I moved to that apartment, I didn't hook up internet for the first few days because it was like a weekend or whatever. And I'm like, huh, I wonder if I could go 30 days without internet at home, 30 days without internet. I said, I'm going to try it. It'll give me something to write about. Right.

Sure. Um, that was, it was five years ago and I have not had internet at home since. And I run an online business. Holy cow. And so, so I can tell you the reason I don't have internet.

What about your phone? You've got internet there. Sort of, sort of. But I found a way around that too, because I wanted to be, I wanted to be able to write about that. So it was the most productive month of my life. Wow. And those 30 days.

And I'm like, okay, I'm not going to get it back next month. And so it just sort of continued from there. And it's not to say that I won't ever have it again someday. We have an office in Missoula, Montana. So I drive to the office and it's a place where I can schedule it. Yeah, I can work there. And I have an office at home too, but there's no internet there. But that's a place for me to create.

You're probably so focused when you're at home writing. It's deep work. It's full concentration. You're in the flow. Yeah. Not distracted by social media likes and who left a comment here. Exactly. And so, yes, I do have a phone at home, but I keep it on. As soon as I get home, the and yes. Without the comment here. And exactly. And so, so yes, I do have a phone at home, but I keep it on as soon as I get home. The first thing

I do is put it on this charging stand. And in fact, I do, I go out of my way to like, keep it away from my person. You were asking me if I had a picture of something earlier, I had to like go into my bag and dig my phone out because I try to be as present as I can. And I, I'm constantly failing at that. And that's okay. Like I'm not anyone's Yoda. I fail at all time, but I learned so much from it. So when I got rid of internet, it was maybe six months earlier, I'd got rid of TV at home and realized that, you know, that wasn't adding as much value as I thought it was. It was disconnecting you from your partner or your children or whatever.

Yeah. And so I was so... So no TV. I had no TV and then I did no internet. And then for two months, I got rid of my cell phone. And you learn about a special kind of loneliness. Because I mean, think about this. You've removed all your pacifiers, right?

Because it was my first... You have to be with your thoughts. Yeah... You have to be with your thoughts. Yeah, you have to be with your thoughts. But then, and you have to be with people and you have to make plans in a different way. And also, here's the interesting thing. You learn a lot about your friends too. Because if you're going to meet someone for lunch and... I'm running a few minutes behind. Yes. You text really quick. Yeah. Right. I couldn't do it anymore. You're just there and you're on time. you're waiting. Oh yeah. And you learn how what's happening. There aren't any pay phones anymore.

I mean, there, there was one in Dayton where I lived. I had to, you know, walk in the rain four or five blocks to get there. You don't even have quarters anymore. She's like,

how do I, what do I do? Yeah. And so you're not remembering the numbers anymore. No. We're all plugged in our phone. I used to remember every number. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, your five friends, your home phone, you know? Yeah. There's a great John Mayer lyric. He talks about the shape of calling.

Like, I no longer remember the shape of calling home. Shape of calling home. Yeah. Because you got, you know, you used to remember these numbers like on the keypad there. Or the little dial ringer. You remember those? Oh, yes. Yeah.

The rotary phone. Yes. Yes. That was me like age six or seven. Yeah, we totally, I grew up with one of those. Yeah. me like age six or seven. Yeah, we totally, I grew up with one of those. So, so yeah, I realized that, that once I removed all these pacifiers, that I had to, I had to fill the void with something else that was more, maybe more meaningful. And so I'd rediscover these things

called books and they're amazing. Let me tell you. But you're so minimalist. You didn't have books. So you rented them from the library. No, I wrote them. You and I read them. No, I mean, so I rediscovered time to create more. I rediscovered time. And then the cool thing is, minimalism isn't about deprivation for me. Like I'm not trying to deprive myself of these things.

I'm not an ascetic. I don't want to go live in a cave somewhere. I do want to live in our society. I just want to do so deliberately. And so I decided to bring a phone back into my life. And when I did, I used it more deliberately. No longer do I have Facebook on my phone. No longer do I have email on my phone. I, um, uh, I use a phone. Yeah. I use it to make phone calls. I'd send text messages, GPS. That's how I got here today was GPS Uber. I took an Uber to get here. And so the technology is there

and I allow it to add value to my life. But when it starts getting in the way, I try to check myself because the phone isn't the problem. I'm the problem. And once I realized that, I knew I could change that by just being more deliberate with how I use it.

Yeah. Powerful, man. Wow. So when did you move then? So you moved to Montana a few years ago? Yeah. Powerful, man. Wow. So when did you move then? So you moved to Montana a few years ago? Yeah. So Ryan and I started TheMinimalists.com December of 2010. I left the corporate world in 2011. And at the end of that year, so a year after we started the website, we published our first book, which is called Minimalism, Live a Meaningful Life. And it was sort of about the five higher order values, health, relationships, passion, growth, and contribution. The ability to focus on not just our basic needs, food and shelter and all these other things, which is important, but going beyond that.

Minimalism wasn't just about the stuff for me, right? That was the initial bite at the apple that changed everything. But I think we get so caught up in just the stuff. We think decluttering is just a point. I think anyone watching or listening to this could go rent a dumpster, throw all their crap in it, and be utterly miserable. Because you've just removed the pacifiers. The point isn't just getting rid of the stuff and coming home to an empty house and sulking that, that no one wants that. I don't want to tell anyone to get rid of your book collection or whatever, like whatever adds value to your life. I encourage you to hold onto, but question what adds value to your life?

What is adding value? And so, so when I had let go of the stuff and started writing about it, people found value in it and people started asking about writing a book. And so we, we did and wrote that book minimalism. And we went out on the small book tour over the course of about a year, we did 33 cities. So we'd go out for a week and then we'd come back and, um, we were in our tour bus, which is Ryan's 2004 Toyota Corolla. Nice. And, um, we, we'd hit the road and we'd go out. Yeah, it was, it was just us too. And we'd go to these bookstores and, and, um, yeah, we'd have these little events and that was back in the day when we were lucky if eight people showed up, it was a big event. Right. And, and that was so great. I mean, it was almost more, it was more like a listening tour. I remember our fourth tour

stop, we were in Knoxville, Tennessee, uh, and there was no one there. There was literally no one there. We're sitting there at this bookstore, and we're like, okay, I guess this is it. It was like a little coffee shop there. I'm like, all right, I'm going to get a coffee to go. We're driving back to Dayton tonight. No way. Yeah, and as we're leaving, this guy and his girlfriend go, hey, you're the minimalists.

And I'm like, yes, we are. We're just setting up. He's like, hey, we drove like three hours to come see you. Wow. And it ended up being this awesome one-on-one session. This guy who had a lot of sort of issues in his life. And it was a perfect opportunity to have this almost like one-on-one coaching with this guy that we wouldn't have been able to have otherwise if dozens of people had shown up

or hundreds or thousands of people had shown up. And we learned a lot from that tour and just going out on the road and listening to people and hearing their stories and telling our stories and figure out what stories resonated, which ones didn't. And that's actually how we wrote our second book. So at the end of that tour, we finished in Vancouver, BC. We were driving back to Dayton, Ohio, and we had to drive through Missoula, Montana. And driving through the state of Montana, it's like a 10-hour drive. I mean, it's this massive state. We woke up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

It was gorgeous. And it just got more gorgeous throughout the day. And Ryan looked over at me and he goes, Hey, man, we've got to come back out here to write the next book. So we, we rented a cabin in the middle of nowhere, Montana near Butte and, and on the side of a mountain for, you know, it was like 800 bucks a month to be in the middle of this gorgeous wilderness. And we wrote that second book or the first draft of it. And we wake up every day, it's a negative 28 degrees outside and it's a conducive environment for writing i'll just say that you can do push-ups and write and that's about it right yeah yeah

and so so uh we moved out to montana and i found we found ourselves sort of gravitating toward um missoula montana which is the city there and uh when you were writing that book it really came from all the the stories that resonated with the people from that last tour. Like, okay, this story really resonated. And we're talking about the packing party or we would talk about, you know, my mom's death and me going through her material possessions and trying to let go of sentimental items. And so we learned what resonated, what didn't. The things I thought were very profound, they landed on deaf ears. And the other things, the packing party was sort of an afterthought and that really resonated with people.

And so what we learned was that here are the things that people find value in. Let's share more of that. And so, yeah, we ended up in Montana about four years ago and we've been there ever since. What do you think brings you the most fulfillment today? I always look back to those five values. And so if my health is lacking, then I need to repair that. That's the first thing. Yeah, yeah.

And I think they're all tied though. If my relationships are lacking, it means if I'm not giving to them or if I'm not getting what I need from those relationships, then I have to question why. Right. And so if I'm not creating, you know, if I'm not passionate about this, this creativity or this craft, then, then I'm lacking. If I feel like I'm not growing or if I'm not giving to the world and in a meaningful way, then any of those areas, if any of those areas are empty, right, that's the weak link.

And I need to go back and fix that. And, you know, it's constant every day. I'm trying to look at how do I serve these values in my life? And if I'm not serving them, then I need to be honest with myself and find a way to fix that. How does someone, is there like a minimalist assessment test that people can take where you can ask a number of questions to yourself? You know, where your stuff is owning you as opposed to you are owning your stuff and you're in control of your life. Is there like a few questions you could ask people listening? Yeah. There's one question in particular that I would ask.

How might your life be better with less? It's a counterintuitive question at first, right? Because we're always thinking about more. How do I get this? How do I bring this into my life? How do I achieve that? How do I take on this new responsibility, this new project? How do I get this promotion? But how might my life be better with less? That's a different question. And for me at first, it was less commitment, question. And for me at first, it was less commitment, less financial obligation. For me, I had all that debt. And so the first benefit for me was regaining control of my finances and developing a plan to deal with that. And to do that, I had to be less focused on the stuff.

I had to sell a lot of stuff. I had to stop accumulating and buying things because the price tag is one cost, but then there's all these other costs as well. You have to have the space to store it or to clean it or to take care of it or to charge it or to whatever, put gas in it, all of these things. And so by asking that question, how might your life be better with less? You identify what the benefits are for you. And they're different for everyone. I had a 93-year-old come to our last event in San Diego. And she came in the hug line afterward. And she goes, I just want you to know that she brought three generations of daughters.

So her daughter, her granddaughter, and her great-granddaughter with her. And she goes, I just want you to know that I'm 93 years old. And I am finally simplifying my life for the first time. We had a 13 year old show up in Omaha, Nebraska. And I'm like, Hey buddy, did your mom drag you out here? I see your mom, you're with your mom here. He's like, are you kidding me? I dragged her out here because I thought maybe my parents could find some, some value, some benefits in this minimalist message. And what I learned is the benefits are going to be different for everyone, but we're all asking because I thought maybe my parents could find some value, some benefits in this minimalist message. That's cool. And what I learned is the benefits are going to be different for everyone,

but we're all asking the same question. It's how do I live a more meaningful life? And part of that has to do with just changing our focus to figure out what's important. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I bet if you came into my place right now and you looked around, you wouldn't think I'm a minimalist,

but I really don't accumulate a lot of things. I intentional yeah i'm very intentional like it's all you know i don't have a blank room in here so i have some stuff on the you know it's intentional things but this is like pretty much it when i moved to la i had two bags a laptop and a guitar minimalist i didn't have anything else i in ohio i got rid of all my stuff, moved to New York City, and I had two bags when I came here to LA. And I really don't need much. I've got an older car. It's a $4,000 car that I bought. But I'm not looking to buy new

things. I would say I'm looking to have impactful things and updated equipment that I could use to produce better quality content. They're tools, though, right? Yeah, And I think, I think that's how a lot of the things are. And my office.

Yes. Yeah. So it's like, I'm maximizing my space. For sure. And I, you'll talk to my assistant. I purge probably every few months.

Cause I get a bunch of like, just packages and bags, like constantly like gear from people always sending me stuff. Right. I'm just trying to purge it as often as I can to make my closet simple and clean and organized. It just is minimal, but not to the extreme. You know what I mean? Yeah. For me, minimalism isn't a radical lifestyle. It's a practical lifestyle. And my version of minimalism is going to look different from your version. It's going to look different from Leo's version who has six kids. His will necessarily look different. I'll tell you this,

Leo is the ultimate minimalist. He washes his shirts in the sink still. He doesn't make his family do that, but he does it as a ritual and to, to show that he can, he doesn't have to have this attachment to the, to these things. And I find, I like the washer and dryer. No, I like simplicity. I have a washer and dryer. I do too, but he finds value in that ritual. And so that's different for him. And what I've realized is that as a minimalist, everything I own serves a purpose or it brings me joy. So whether it's serving a purpose, like the equipment that you have here, those are all tools, or they bring you joy, like aesthetic joy. Like you have these photos and artwork and things on the walls and on hangers

and things like that, that serves an aesthetic purpose as well. And so it brings you joy in some way. And so I think that's great. I don't want people to deprive themselves or think that's necessary. Now you can temporarily deprive yourself. I think sometimes that's helpful. If you remove something from your life for a temporary period of time, like I did with the cell phone to figure out when I bring it back in, does this actually add value? And if so, how can it add the most value to my life? Yeah. What do you think people listening could do to get started? Whether they want to say, I want to get rid of some things or I want to be more minimalist or more intentional. Sure. Is there one post that we could refer them to? Is there a set of three things I can start

with? What's something that you can do? Yeah. So start with that question. And that one's so important because you need to identify what the benefits are for you. We all know instinctually how to declutter your closet, right? So you're never going to see me and Ryan write about, here are the 67 ways for you to declutter your closet. Go get the magic guide of tidying up. Right. Yeah. I'm not opposed to that, but it's just not my thing. We don't write the how-to stuff. We write the why-to stuff. And so it's important for me to understand the why-to. But some tips for how-to, I mean, I'll give you three things really quickly. Number one is 30-day minimalism game. You can find that at theminimalists.com slash game. Here's how it works really quick. We'll have it linked it works for you guys. Yeah, great. If you want to throw it in the show notes, that'd be awesome. Um, but basically I think decluttering personally, just for me is kind of boring. Uh, and so we found a way to make it a little more fun with some friendly competition.

So the beginning of a month, you partner up with someone, a friend, a family member, a coworker, your arch nemesis, whoever it may be. And you decide to let go of some stuff over the course of the month. Now on the first day of the month, it's really easy. You each get rid of one item. Second day of the month, two items. Third day of the month, three items. So you get that momentum you need. It starts off really easy,

but by mid-month, it's much more difficult. 15th day of the month, I have to get rid of 15 items. 20th day of the month, 20 items. And whoever goes the longest wins, so you can wager whatever you want. You bet a dollar, bet a lunch, or whatever you want to bet. If you both make it to the end of the month,

you both won though because you've both gotten rid of 500 items and it's a really good start. And I find that we've had tens of thousands of listeners share stuff on social media now. So if you go to that post, you can find a link and see a bunch of pictures of people sharing online as well.

So having that other person there to help keep you accountable and you keep them accountable makes it more enjoyable, but also sustains the process a lot longer. How does someone go through this? Say you get rid of 100,000 things or whatever because you think it's a cool idea,

but how do you do it so you don't reaccumulate those things? So there's a deeper why that keeps you maintaining it. Yes. How does someone do that? Well, I did a few things. So the question that was really important to me early on was, does this add value to my life when I was letting go of stuff? But then as an experiment,

beginning of 2011, so this is about a month after we had started our website, I needed something to write about. And so I decided, well, we're the minimalists. I'm going to be the authority on this. So I need something to write about. And so I decided, well, we're the minimalists. I'm going to be the authority on this. So I need something to write about. I'm not going to buy anything this year as a new year's resolution, except for food and hygiene products, right? And so I'm not going to buy any new material possessions for a year. Yeah, no clothes, no electronics. No new tools for your business.

Nothing, nothing. Not even for your business. Yeah, not even for the business, right? I'm just going to do this for a year to see what happens. Food and toiletries. Yes, yeah. Nothing. Not even for your business. Yeah. Not even for the business. Right. I'm just going to do this for a year to see what happens. Food and toiletries. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Man, was that way more difficult than I thought. Oh my goodness. Especially with, you know, Amazon at your fingertips and everything else, it becomes nearly impossible. But what I did, it took about four months to really retrain myself because I'd be at a store and I'd see,

you know, I really want to buy this glass. I think it's beautiful. I'm going to buy this. Oh, wait, I can't buy it. I'm doing this experiment. And then, you know, I'd be at the store a week later getting some deodorant or whatever. And I'm, oh, I really want to. Oh, that's right.

I can't. And about the four month mark, I started. Oh, I get this gift for someone. Oh, I can't. I can't. Yeah. Write them a letter instead. Yeah. Oh, I can't. I can't, yeah. Write them a letter instead. Yeah, yeah.

Or make them a gift. Or buy an experience, concert tickets, or spend time with someone. So I still spent money on experiences, but not on material possessions. And so, but by the end of four months, I would walk by this glass and say, oh, that's a really nice glass. I really like that. And that was it. I didn't feel the urge to continue to consume.

And so when that feeling has stuck around for the last five years, I would encourage anyone who is eager to try to limit the things they're bringing into their life to set up some sort of rule like that. Now, you don't have to be as extreme as that. But even now, for me, with any big purchase over $250, I have to wait at least a month in order to make that purchase. Think about it. And then a month later, then you purchase if you still want it. Yeah. If I still want it, if I still need it, if I still think it's going to add value to my

life. And that forces me to continue to contemplate that. And so I'm asking that question. I've asked that question so much. Does this add value to my life? That it's no longer an intellectual exercise. It's an emotional one. Is this going to add value to my life? I'm going to know in a moment. Yeah. And

you have to be honest with yourself, but also holding onto the thing just because I get value from this today, doesn't mean I'll get value from it six months from now. It's like a tattoo. Maybe it's a nice idea right now, but in a year or two, are you going to be glad you had it? Who is Jenny? Oh my gosh. Yeah, no, it's a, but I think it's a, it's the same thing. Like, is this going to continue to add value? And if not, I have to be willing to let go. Sure. What, um, you have a new documentary that you guys put together over the last couple of years, right? And it just came out. Can you share a little bit about it? Yeah, it came out in theaters at the end of May. And, uh, basically, you know, for the last six years, it's been the

Josh and Ryan show. And that's been great. We've been able to share a recipe and millions of people have found value in that. And people have liked our books and our blog posts and now the podcast. And so that's been great. And so what I've learned over the last five, six years is I started off just wanting to be an author. Initially, it was a literary fiction author. And then I started writing nonfiction and really enjoyed writing the memoir and, and, and went through that whole process. I've become much more vehicle agnostic over the last six years. And I don't know if you know the stat, but, but 55% of adults in the United States read less than one

book a year. So if you just write books, it doesn't matter how awesome your book is, half of the adult audience is... Won't even read one of those books. Yeah. And your book doesn't have any chance. So the people who read 10 or more books is a very slim percentage, but many people will use other mediums to consume different bits of content. And so whether that's the, we've done two TEDx talks, we've done the blog or the books. We wanted to find ways to communicate and reach people and show people that it wasn't this radical lifestyle. So we went out and we interviewed minimalists from all walks of life.

Minimalist entrepreneurs and minimalist families, tiny house enthusiasts. Do you know Graham Hill? He's from New York. He, so he does this, he runs a website called Life Edited, but he has this, this 420 square foot apartment that we have in, in the documentary and it sleeps seven. You can have dinner for 12. What? It has an office in it. And it's because it's all modular. So like this table comes to the floor, these beds. I mean, and it's unbelievable.

And he utilizes every square inch. I mean, it's unbelievable. And so, and that may not be appealing to everyone. In fact, we have one lady, Tammy Strobel. Oh yeah, one bathroom. That's a challenge. Yes, it does one lady, Tammy Strobel. There's only got one bathroom. That's a challenge. Yes, it does. Yeah, that is definitely a challenge. 12 for one bathroom. And so we had Tammy in there. She had her 183 square foot tiny house. I don't want to live in a tiny house personally, but I admire people who want to live in that and then find a way to

execute it. And so we interviewed those people. I interviewed a minimalist architect in Tucson, Arizona, who had this really cool plot of land with three houses on it, but they were all, they weren't tiny houses, but they were appropriate. And he kept using this word appropriate, in fact. And I felt like that was the perfect word for minimalism because he said when he builds a house for someone, he doesn't just go to their, he doesn't just show them a blueprint of your typical house. He doesn't ask, do you want a living room? And do you want a dining room? Because people say, yes. He asks, how are you going to live your life? And he tries to build a house around that life instead of trying to cram a life into a home. And I really admired that because he said, everything I bring into my home,

everything that I bring into my life is appropriate for my life. And that's what we wanted to show people. So we got that side of it, but then we also wanted to be more beta driven. And we wanted to show the other side of it. We didn't want to just be like this, oh, look at these people in this template for living. That was interesting. So we went out and we got neuroscientists and neuropsychologists and a bunch of different people, economists, a former Wall Street broker, and all of these people who were using this idea of simplifying and living more intentionally, but able to quantify it in a way that really highlighted the stories of these other people who were living this more meaningful, more deliberate life with less stuff. Sure.

It's pretty cool. So where can people watch it right now? You can go to minimalismfilm.com and you can find it there. Vimeo and iTunes, Amazon and several other places as well. And what's the main blog, your main site? TheMinimalist.com. TheMinimalist.com. Yeah.

Gotcha. And you can get all your books there. There's also information there for the documentary, I'm assuming. Absolutely. And your next tours and all those things. Yeah. Everything else you're doing. A couple final questions for you.

What are you most proud of that most people don't know about? I'm proud of my short-term actions align with my long-term values. And that wasn't always the case for me. I was always living for someday. I'll get to that someday in some non-existent hypothetical future. I'll do this passion project. I'll focus on my health. I'll focus on my relationships. I'll focus on my health. I'll focus on my relationships. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll give the charity someday, but of course some days is never, never comes. And so, you know, I turned someday and two, two day, and I'm, I'm much more deliberate with the decisions I make today because I realize it impacts not just myself and others, but it impacts the future self and others as well. That's cool, man. If you had, do you have any tattoos? No. If you had to get a tattoo

on your forehead in reverse that only you could see in a mirror and you're looking at yourself right here, what would that be? A word or a symbol or something. Just a minus sign. A minus sign. Yeah. That's cool. I like that. Yeah. All right.

What are you most grateful for in your life recently? My partner, Becca. She's amazing. I mean, I am truly in love and man, isn't that what it's all about? Absolutely, man. Yeah. How long you guys been together? About a year and a half.

Wow. Yeah, she's a three-year-old, so I've become a parent in the last couple years and that has been the biggest challenge of my life probably. Turning into a parent without, yeah. Learning that, it wasn't something I anticipated, but it's been well worth it. That's cool, man. Yeah. Congrats. Thank you. That's awesome.

Nice. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of the podcast. It's called the three truths. So if this was your last day many, many years from now, and you've achieved everything you wanted to, you've lived the minimalist lifestyle, you have the relationships you want, and you got to write down three things you know to be true about everything you wanted to. You live the minimalist lifestyle. You have the relationships you want. And you got to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've learned that

you would pass on to the world. And this would be all that they would be able to remember you by are these three truths. Yeah. What would you say are yours? Number one, let it go. It's just stuff. Number two, you can't change the people around you, but you can change the people around you. And number three, love people and use things because the opposite never works. That might be one of the best three truths I've heard in a long time. So those are good. Thanks, man. Thanks, brother.

Yeah. Before I ask the final question, I want to make sure where can we connect with you on social media, even though you're never on there? No, we're on there occasionally. Actually, that's the best place to interact with us. Although we still get snail mail. So if you ever want to write us, we generally don't do email, but

you can send us a nice postcard or something. You emailed me. We don't have a private or we have a private email addresses, but yeah, like I just found that that barrier of entry. And so I get far more meaningful things from people now. And these, these, these beautiful packages and handwritten letters and, uh, and the mail then, uh, then via email. Yeah. But if you want to find us on social media, it's pretty simple. At The Minimalists on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Very cool. We'll have that all linked up. Before I ask the final question, I want to take a moment to acknowledge you for transforming your life and teaching all of us how to do the same. I mean, to see that you go from such a challenging 20s where you thought you were on the right track

and then became awakened to what actually was and wasn't serving you and committing to make a shift, even though it was really challenging, hard, and you constantly do challenges for yourself. It's really admirable to see that you've transformed your health, your relationships, your lifestyle, and the impact it's made in your life and the impact you're able to make on other people's lives. And I think that's what for me is meaningful is when we can set up our life so that it impacts others positively as opposed to negatively. So I want to acknowledge you for all that you do, man. I appreciate that. And I'd like to say the same for you, man. You're doing great work here. Thank you. Of course. Yeah. Final question is what's your definition of greatness?

So I just spent the last few days at a Rob Bell event. So we have a mutual friend, Rob Bell. And he said something interesting while I was there. It was one of the big takeaways. I remember writing this down. He said, greatness isn't self-conscious. And I just, there was something that I loved about that, that when you are doing something that is great, when you feel the best, the most excited, the most engaged, the most focused, you're not self-conscious about it. when I'm writing, when I feel like something is truly great, it doesn't matter what other people think about it. It doesn't even really matter what I think about it. It's just, I feel that it's great. And so maybe, maybe it's just that greatness isn't self-conscious. There you go. Jobs, thanks for coming on. Thanks, bro. Appreciate it. Appreciate you.

Appreciate you. Do you feel cleansed, my friends? Do you feel like you've made it? Did anyone let go of anything, possessions, while you were listening to this episode? Or did you think of some items that you could let go? Now, I have a challenge for you. My challenge for you is to start letting go. Start thinking of a few things, whether it's one thing a day. What's one thing I can get rid of that isn't adding value, that is holding me back,

or just isn't adding value, that's just clutter? Think about it. Is there something you can let go of right now? Go let go of one thing right now and tweet to me at Lewis Howes and let me know what you thought. Also, connect with Joshua. All of his social media handles are at lewishouse.com slash 407. Make sure to check out the minimalists blog. It's got a great blog over there. If you want to learn more about all of his information on how he does everything. And again, share this with your friends, post it on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, find me there and add me. If you're not following me on Facebook, Twitter, especially, Instagram. Find me there and add me. If you're not following me on Facebook, Twitter, especially on Instagram, because I spend a lot of time on there, make sure to come hang out with me because I want to connect with you and hear about what you're up

to. So come say hi. It's at Lewis Howes everywhere online. And if you are not a subscriber yet, you've got to make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel. That's right. YouTube slash Lewis Howes. We are blowing it up there. We're almost at a hundred thousand subscribers, which pretty much started this year. And that's all because of you. We've been putting out great content, but you've been watching it and you've been sharing it. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm telling you guys, this is a powerful resource, a powerful site. I recommend it because it's something I've used before is crowdsourcing custom design to really elevate your brand. I cannot emphasize the power of your brand enough. So make sure to go to

designcrowd.com slash greatness and get your design on now. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this one and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Outro Music