The School of Greatness - 458 Discovering Rockstars & Defending the Wrongfully Convicted with Jason Flom

Episode Date: March 15, 2017

"Preparation + skill + perseverance equals luck." - Jason Flom If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/458

This is episode number 458 with music exec legend Jason Flom. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome to this episode, guys. I am super pumped. We've got a big guest on.

His name is Jason Flom. And I'm gonna share a little bit about who he is in a moment. Before I do, I wanna make sure you guys check out something right now. My new book, The Millionaire Morning. Now, this is a free book that will actually ship a physical book to you. All you do is pay for shipping and handling. It's The Millionaire Morning, the morning mindset, habits, and routines that will make you rich. We talk about how to break free of the mindset that is holding you back from earning more. Also, the 10 steps to developing a millionaire mindset, the top habits of millionaires

that you can actually start applying every day. It doesn't matter where you live, what gender you are, if you have been to college or graduated or not, what career you're in, it doesn't matter any of that. You can start applying these habits today. And the keys to building the right relationships to grow your business. Check it out. Get a free copy.

We ship it internationally as well. TheMillionaireMorning.com. Go get your free copy right now and let me know when you get it. Again, TheMillionaireMorning.com. Today's episode, we've got a big one. It's almost like a two-parter. It's almost like two interviews in one, but they somehow tie together. So I wanted to keep them together because it's so powerful. Now, if you

don't know who Jason Flum is, he is the guy that discovers rock stars and he also defends wrongfully convicted inmates. And just the life he's lived, the people he's met, the things he's experienced and what he's done are so powerful. He is the CEO of Lava Records and Lava Music Publishing. He was previously the chairman and CEO of Atlantic Records, Virgin Records and Capital Music Group

and is personally responsible for launching acts such as Kid Rock, Katy Perry and Lorde. The New Yorker described him as one of the most successful record men in the past 20 years, known for his speciality in delivering monsters. Artists who he discovered and developed during his time at Atlantic Record include Kid Rock, Matchbox 20, The Coors, Hayley Williams, Skid Row, Tori Amos, Trans-Siberian Orchestra,

Jewel, and Sugar Ray. From there, he moved to Virgin Records in 2006, where he discovered the megastar and signed Katy Perry. And then when he moved to Capitol Records, he went on to oversee the careers of artists like Coldplay, Lenny Kravitz, and 30 Seconds to Mars. And again, in this interview, we cover some amazing things. First, we talk about the stories behind how Jason discovered superstar acts like Lord and Katy Perry, what separates a true star from all the other talent they are competing with, and how he can spot the difference between them. Also, why Jason is so passionate about correcting our legal system and what he's doing about it. The crazy stories of wrongfully convicted people

who Jason has helped exonerate and get out of prison. Also what anyone can do right now to support changing the defects in our legal and political system that has been corrupting things for a long time. This one was a lot of fun for me. For one, it's exciting for me to learn about how someone can go from working in a mailroom, essentially, to being the CEO and discovering some of the biggest acts in the world. And also continue to build your industry in your industry, but also build outside of it and use your influence to serve greater causes like what Jason is doing with the wrongfully convicted. Before we get into the episode, I want to give

a quick shout out to our review of the week over on iTunes. That's right. Every week we're talking about the best reviews and we're getting a lot lately. So thank you to everyone who's left a review over on iTunes. And this one is from John Burrito, who said, absolutely life changing. This show has transformed my morning and afternoon commutes into a time of personal growth, reflection and empowerment. Thank you so much, Lewis, for your bravery, honesty, and your giving heart.

You have opened my eyes to what is possible in my own life, and your show has connected me to the messages of some of the greatest minds in the world. Thank you. Thank you a million times. Thank you. Keep the greatness coming. So thank you so much to John Burrito. And again, I love the last name there.

And again, this is another one of those episodes where I think it's going to fill you with great inspiration and insights about how to reach the top of your industry, but also how to make an impact in the world and hear about the story of what Jason does to serve so many people who were wrongfully convicted. hear about the story of what Jason does to serve so many people who were wrongfully convicted. Make sure to check out the full show notes at lewishouse.com slash 458, where you can see the full video interview and all the other links back to what Jason is up to as well. But without further ado, let's dive into this episode with the one, the only Jason Flom. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Jason Flom in Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast.

We have Jason Flom in the house. Good to see you, man. Thanks for coming in. What's up? Thanks for having me. I'm excited about this because a mutual friend introduced us, Ryan Blair, right? Yeah. He first introduced us, and I started learning more about you after he connected us.

We chatted on the phone phone and a fascinating life, fascinating story. First starting in the music industry, still in the music industry, but you've broken a number of big names who are just a few of the names that you've kind of like either discovered or helped develop into becoming superstars. Oh man. I mean, going, I've got a list of like paragraphs. Going in reverse chronological order, I guess you'd go Lorde and Jesse Jay and Katy Perry and Paramore and 30 Seconds to Mars and then going back further, Kid Rock and Matchbox 20 and then even further back, Stone Temple Pilots and Skid Row

and, you know, Jewel and the Coors and Trans-Siberian Orchestra. I get a kick out of that one because it's sort of, I think, a little ironic that the biggest Christmas act in history was created or co-created by a Jew. That's funny. I can't Jesus Christ. So, yeah. It's been – listen, the music business has been very, very good to me.

And it goes even further back. But I don't want to give you some of those names because then people will date me. Sure. Well, Trans-Siberian is such a huge hit too. I knew one of the violinists. I think his name is Mark Wood, I think. I'm not sure if you know who that is, but I think he performed in it. But there's a lot of different acts in Trans-Siberian now.

There's like multiple or no? Well, there's two touring companies, which is a brilliant thing, right? The fact is that they could be playing Seattle and Philadelphia the same night. It's amazing. You can't really go wrong with that. Amazing. Yeah, and the shows are so consistently phenomenal. The light show. I've been to one. It's cool. The lighting, the music, it's like high energy. so consistently phenomenal. The light show.

I've been to one. It's cool. The lighting, the music, it's like high energy. It's awesome. The narrator. Yeah, it's great. It just makes everybody feel good. You know what's interesting about that is that they don't have an intermission,

and they sell less concessions than any other artist because nobody leaves their seat. They all sit there like they're witnessing a miracle. Christmas miracle. Nobody leaves their seat. It's crazy. I don't think anybody goes to the bathroom. It's funny because I think some of the pro owners would love it if they would put an intermission in so they could sell some sodas. Exactly.

Yeah, that's funny. Not happening. So you've been in the music world for how long has it been now? Well, I started on July 31st, 1979. Wow. I was given a staple gun and some double-sided tape and a bunch of posters. And I went out and climbed around on ladders and went through these things. Go promote this guy.

Go promote this act. Yeah. Well, we used to have things called record stores. Some of your listeners will remember that. I remember them. And they were great. They were places where you'd go to buy records. Yes.

You know what I mean? And then it was CD stores, right? Yeah. Record stores became. They were still called record stores. Yeah. CD. Yeah.

All that. Tapes. Yeah. And so I would climb around. And it was was i immediately fell in love with the business i mean it was like they were paying me four dollars an hour i was getting all the free records i could carry home and running around putting up led zeppelin posters i was like this is it i found the greatest job in the world i'm 18 years old i can't get any better that's it i've arrived you know and so it was at that moment that i realized realized I gave up on my rock star dreams at that point.

You wanted to be a musician. Oh, I was absolutely sure I was going to be a rock star, even though I was aware of the fact that I wasn't talented enough. Guitarist? I was a guitarist, yeah. Did you sing as well? No, I can't sing at all. I can't sing at all.

They used to let me sing one or two songs. That was the time when people could go to the bathroom. Because it was my group. But I could only sing one note so it was bad but um but yeah we played some clubs in New York and we did a lot more rehearsing than gigging and anyway um you know but I got a job my dad who was a sort of a legendary attorney in the you know throughout that time um and an amazing amazing man he was my hero but uh he gave me a year between high school and college to become a rock star and my mom vetoed the deal so my mom who had never cursed

in her life before that time said bullshit if he's living in my house he's got to work or go to school now in manhattan you can't just get an apartment they're not it's not cheap i had no money i so i had to live in the house so. So my dad, one of the most famous negotiators of the 20th century, had to go and un-negotiate the deal. He had just negotiated with his wayward son. Because I was stoned all day long. And I had hair down. I mean, it was crazy.

So anyway, so he knew somebody who knew somebody who got me an interview at Warner Communications. I walked in the interview high because it was 10 in the morning. And that's your life, dude. I had enough time to smoke a couple of joints by then Communications. I walked in the interview high because it was 10 in the morning. That's your life, dude. I had enough time to smoke a couple of joints by then. And I walked in the interview, slumped down the chair. I said, you're going to work at Atlantic Records. And I fell in love with the business the first day there.

And I was like, you know what? My dad had told me and my brother, do whatever you want to do. Try to be the best at it. But just make the world a better place. He says, if you do that, you'll be a success in my eyes. Well, I wanted to be a success in his eyes because he was my hero. So I knew I was never going to be the best guitar player. This was around the time the first Van Halen record came out.

And in case I needed a reminder, I was like, okay, fuck it. You know what I mean? There's no point. That I can't do. So, I mean, so, you know, I was adequate. I was good. But anyway, so I, but I,, but walking around the halls of Atlantic Records in those legendary times, and those were really fun times

to be in the business, I realized I could be the best at this. Wow. This is something, I love this. It was my favorite label. You know, I had the label, Led Zeppelin and ACTC, whatever, all those records, Bad Company back in the day with the A spinning around. People who are young haven't experienced that,

but it's pretty fun when you get vinyl. And vinyl's making a comeback. It is. Which is great. So to watch that A with the little floral, whatever that thing is called, the little circle thingy spinning around, it was just part of my...

Childhood growing up. It was in my soul. And I was like, wow, this is... And now you're working there. Yeah, and the crazy thing is, after my crazy journey, almost 25 years to the day from that like day of walking in there um they they asked me to become chairman of the record company and i was like uh yeah you guys sure about this it was like me um you know and

we know it's crazy this is that my first thought when they offered me that job which of course i wanted i was like, wow. I mean, does that mean I get to decide whether it's a snow day? That was the weirdest thing. It's so weird how your mind goes. I was like, and for you people in L.A. that don't know what snow days are. Right. Or in the Southwest, right?

Snow days when you actually don't have to go to school because it's snowing. Right? Now, with global warming, we won't have any more snow days anyway. But that's beside the point. But, yeah, so it was a crazy journey. Wow. And so you started, you know, as a, you know, a low level $4 an hour posting posters up or whatever you're doing, promoting records, I'm assuming, to doing every single job there? Or did you kind of make some big leaps?

Or what happened? You started managing artists? Or what was the process? Well, so serendipity and synchronicity are a big part of my story and luck, right? or did you kind of make some big leaps or what happened? You started managing artists or what was the process? Well, so serendipity and synchronicity are a big part of my story and luck, right? I think, you know, you have to be lucky. But I think there are ways to get lucky too and we'll talk about that. But the fact is what happened was I decided I needed to find a band because if I found a band, maybe they'd give me a job finding bands.

And I was like, but how am I going to find a band? I have a staple gun and some double-sided tape not exactly the tools of the trade so i was like okay i set my mind i said okay there's a there was a magazine back then a music industry trade magazine called album network and i was like okay album network had in the it was the bible of rock radio yeah tell you everything you need to know about what was going on which records were going up which were going down which were coming out what the programmers thought of this all this stuff right have advertisements for different records so i decided if i in the back of the magazine they had the playlists of all 190 rock stations around the

country and rock was my thing back then so i decided if i study these playlists and my eyes were real good because i was 18 19 years old i was like if i study these playlists maybe i'll find a record that's being played on a station that isn't already signed. And then I can try to find out about that group. And maybe that would be a chance for me to bring it to somebody. So that was my thing. And they printed the name of the station and the phone number and the name of the program director. So I could just call and pretend I was somebody important, which is what I would do.

And half the time they wouldn't take my call anyway because they didn't know me. But half the time they would. And then most of that time they would say, no, no, no, that's already signed to RCA or whatever they would say. So as fate would have it, one day I'm looking at this, I'm staring at this list

and there was a station in Long Island called WBAB and they were playing a group called The Lines. So I call up the program director. His name was Bob Buckman. I get Bob in front. I go, Bob, what's The Lines? He goes, it's nothing. It's a favor. I put it on the radio as a favor to somebody Bob Buckman. I get Bob in front. I go, Bob, what's the line? He goes, it's nothing. It's a favor.

I put it on the radio as a favor to somebody. You don't need to worry about that. And I said, well, if you were me, who would you sign? It's the type of thing you would say, right? Like, let me just go play handball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, who should? I mean, I had as much chance of signing anything

as you did of making the handball team. That's basically it. I didn't sign anything. It was a ridiculous thing to say. How old were you? I was probably 19, maybe. Wow. 18, 19.

You know, I could barely sign my fucking name back then. I don't know if I'll have to curse the show. Anyway, so I said, okay, I'm going to. So he says, let me tell you about Zebra. I go, what's Zebra? He goes, it's the most requested band at the radio station. They weren't signed. I go, you mean most requested local band? He goes, no, genius. He goes, listen, the most requested band at the radio station. And they weren't signed. I go, you mean most requested local band?

He goes, no, genius. He goes, listen, let me tell you something. He goes, number one at the station is Zebra. Then two, three, and four in some order was Zeppelin, ACDC, and Ozzy Ozzy. Wow. I was like, oh, my God, this is it. This is it. How do I get a hold of these guys, right?

So he says, hold on. I'll call them on the other phone. So they lived in New Orleans. They'd been playing clubs for nine years and selling out everywhere. They'd play New York in the summer because it was too hot in New Orleans. And then they'd play New Orleans in the winter because it was too cold in New York. And they were big in both markets. Anyway, they'd given up on getting a record. They passed over by everybody. But they were selling out. But nobody cared. Yeah. So I didn't say that music business is a logical place. You'll never

hear me say that. So anyway, so what happened was the next day I get to my desk and there's a FedEx package. Now FedEx was kind of a new thing back then. Again, I'm dating myself. But it was like glowing. I was like, what do I do now? You know, so I opened it. There was a record in it.

I'm like, great. Now what do I listen to? So I go to one of the guys whose job it was to do this, the A&R, right? The talent. I figured this guy must know what he's doing. He's got an office. I go in his office. I said, you're about to hear the next big thing. HeR, right? The talent. I figured this guy must know what he's doing. He's got an office. I go in his office.

I said, you're about to hear the next big thing. He says, really? Did you listen to it? I go, no, but I'm telling you. Because I knew, like, intellectually, statistically. Yeah, everyone's requesting it. It's got to be good.

Selling out. Right? So I put it on. The guy gives me five, ten reasons why it's no good. So I go back to my desk to call this guy Randy to tell him that his stuff's no good. And as I'm dialing the number, I said to the assistant, then we're called secretaries back then,

now it's politically incorrect, but I said, Mary, this doesn't make any sense to me. This guy is number one on the station, selling out everywhere, and the guy just told me it's no good, and I'm calling him to tell him that his stuff's no good. She goes, it doesn't make any sense to me either. That's why it hasn't been signed yet.

So I said, yeah, probably so. So I call him up. Well, how many great ideas do we know that were accepted on the first go-round? Not many. So that's one of my central tenets. But anyway, we'll get to that. But so anyway, so I call him up, and I said, listen, the guy says no good for this reason, that reason, but I'm going to give it to the president of Atlantic and see what he thinks.

Now, I didn't know the president of Atlanticlantic i mean i knew i should stay away from him when i was high and the smoke was captured in my hair and i was like i looked like cousin it and it was like you know so but other than that i fit so i went and i made a cassette of it and i put it on his secretary's desk it was like a wall of cassettes on her desk that he was probably never going to listen to right because everybody's doing the same thing i'm doing hoping that he's going to pay some attention so that's where the story gets interesting. So he grabs, sometime in the next few days, he grabs a few cassettes to listen to on his way home.

Well, he happened to live in Long Island. So he's listening to Zebra in the cassette deck and decides that he doesn't like it and pops it out, and the same song is playing on the radio. No way. Because he lived in Long Island. The station was tuned to WBAB because that was the hot station. And so the radio no way because he lived in long island the station was tuned to wbab because that was the hot station and so now you can imagine he's like huh i found

this out much later right because all i knew is the guy the next day the guy comes in and says this is genius and i was like huh yeah oh yeah i knew that you're welcome so but that's what happened so that was my break because at the end of the song the DJ said that's the most requested song in the history of WBAB Zebra Who's Behind the Door so he was listening to it and like oh my god yeah

we need to get these guys because he was smart I mean he was a guy he's the guy who taught me that your opinion is not nearly as important as the public's opinion that's it

what the market wants so when the public makes that movement where you reach in your pocket and they put down your money that's it well in this case they were just making requests

but even still they were buying tickets. Because back then, there was no downloading. So anyway, it was great because when the record actually finally came out and it was a whole twisted saga

to get to that point, but when it finally came out, the kids all cut school and bought the record because they'd been waiting years for their favorite band to put on a record. So they were like

snatching it out of the boxes. They couldn't even stamp the price on it, which was only like $3 back then. And they, $3.69 I think. And they, you know, and it was like, and everybody's looking at me like i know what i'm doing i'm like yeah i know what i'm doing but i didn't know what i was doing but i faked it and i you know and then wow yeah and then the next band i worked with was twisted sister and then things

got interesting from there so they were and they just gave me the they're like okay go find the next big act and go find the next person and yeah not exactly i mean he's still you know the music business is funny it's always like what have you done for me lately? You know? Right. If you're not doing something this year, it's like, you're dead to me. You're the guy that used to be the guy who discovered that some guy,

it's no more relevant or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta stay, you know, well, luckily you've broken like a thousand big artists.

So yeah, it sounds like you've had a good career. Yeah. It's been amazing. I mean, it's been, uh, it's been amazing to be able to do something that I love

and work with people that, you know, I just, you know, I wanted to be a rock star. So I love the whole rock star thing. I love rock and roll. I love the lifestyle. I love the larger than life aspect of it. And so I've always tried to find stars as opposed to just records. You know, like I like rock stars I like who is the the star that you enjoyed meeting and building up

the most or that just took off a great run and was like so amazing to you to watch um you know the I guess it's funny the two that I'm probably most proud of for very different reasons. One is Tori Amos, you know, just because she's so profoundly gifted. And it was a very difficult process getting her to where she had to get to. She had like a unique voice. It was different. They didn't know where to put her at, right? Yeah, her first single had no drums in it. The first album

did nothing. People don't even know she had an album called Why Can't Tori Read that didn't do anything. Now, I think it's worth $500. I should have saved a box of them. Each one's worth $500 on eBay or something. But yeah, that one still

has, for some reason, really stuck with me. Maybe also because it's very different than a lot of the other acts I signed. Although very recently I bumped into this little prodigy named Lord. And there's a through line there somewhere, right? Blake loves Lord, right? Everybody loves Lord. So how did that happen? Did you just find her?

You heard her? Or what happened there? I was just going through my inbox one day, and there was an email from a woman named Natalia Romashevsky, who worked in putting music in TV ads, like a jingle business, sync business, whatever. She was somebody I knew who would send me music time to time because her job is to listen to as much music as possible

to try to find the right music to put in the end. So I'd never heard anything that she had sent that I was particularly into. And she sent me this one email, which I now have framed in my office and autographed by Lorde. And the subject line was hot shit. And then it just said,

unsigned New Zealand female, listen. It had a link to her soundcloud and then she put a disclaimer on the bottom which is kind of funny she said not sure if this is your type of thing but i thought you should hear it right so i took one listen and royals was the first song on it no way and i called it i called matthew i was like what in the world is this and she goes i don't know she's like i just got it like it. A friend of mine in London sent it to me. It had only been out for two days. It had 200 plays on SoundCloud at the time.

So I was like, we ought to find her. So I found her on Facebook, I think. How old was she then? 15. So I emailed Ella, Lord's Ella, and she emailed me back. She didn't know who I was. I mean, she's 15 years old,

living in New Zealand. Why would she? And she sent me back an email and said, you know, contact, who to contact and whatnot. And the next thing I know, I'm on a conference call with her parents and her manager. And, you know, I remember telling, and I can imagine it's sort of probably strange to be, you know, one of her parents, right? She's 15. She's in New Zealand. You got this guy calling from New York.

It was like, you know. Record guy, like, what is going on? I was like, I remember saying on that call that she's going to win Gramm this guy calling from New York who's like record guy like what is going on I was like I remember saying on that call that she's going to win Grammys and I was right I mean there was you know what's funny too

that I don't know why I think this way I'm sort of I'm very interested in energy and stuff right I'm not like super new agey or anything

but I am interested in but you got the beads you got the whole you know you got the thing I got my stuff so yeah there's a story behind all these too

but so the interesting thing that dawned on me was she wrote Royals because she saw a picture of George Brett in a Royals uniform, which is odd in itself because there's no baseball in New Zealand, right? Like where did she see that? I guess online, right? It must have been on something. Interesting. That's hilarious.

And then what happens is Royals becomes the biggest song in the country by far and number one at seven formats which never happens and huge all over the world and the Royals who are perennially

terrible at baseball become the best team in baseball overnight. It's Kansas City, right? Yeah. Like that year they went to the World Series

and the next year they won the World Series. What happened? Like it's weird, right? The Royals are one of those teams that just doesn't win. Never. Right? So all of a sudden they win. Royals. I don't know. Sometimes it

could be a coincidence, but maybe not. I don't know. If anybody has any theories, let us know. That's crazy. How old is she now? She is 19. Wow. That's a pretty quick process. Right when you discovered her and you found her you were just like okay here's the next step we're gonna put this out and then it just kind of took off yeah i mean it was a little more involved than that but she had the music was there and you

know she she was writing all her own stuff and she wrote the whole first record with a guy named joel little uh who was a guy at uh yeah they did it in the little studio in new zealand and like with very little you know i mean it didn't cost a lot of money nothing fancy no bells and whistles no no samples no no features no you know just like pure inspiration and it's interesting you know i read when i was reading the obituary of bobby fisher this is a random fact but i was in that obituary they said that there's three things that children can become geniuses at which are music math and chess and sort of an interesting thing to take a minute and think about right because it's true we know mozart was seven when he was doing writing symphonies and stuff right and you see there was a kid on 60 minutes not too long ago who's like a prodigy of life he's written more symphonies than some of the masters i think he's

11 or 12. And his parents aren't musical. The music just comes to him. He writes them all. Like he just writes, they just come out. He never changes a note. It just like flows out of his brain.

Wow. So, so yeah. And, and the reason they said that that is the case is because music, math, and chess are all based on math. So somehow,

you know, we need a neuroscientist to explain this to us, I guess. Fascinating. Yeah, I find it interesting. Wow, man. And what was the vision for you? You have a vision probably for every artist, but just talking about Lorde, what's the vision when you find something like that?

Do you say, okay, here's what we're going to do for you, or here's where it's going to go, or do you – I mean, how do you even do this? Just some random girl from New Zealand, 200 views, how do you take it to one of the biggest superstars in the world in the next two years? Well, listen, we market magic, right? It's a strange business.

It's not a product that you can see. It's not a product that you can, I mean, you can hold it in your hands in the sense of actually holding a physical disc, but you're not holding music. It's a feeling. It's a feeling, right. It's something that comes... Experience.

It touches you. And it's interesting. It's really pretty much untestable too, right? And I find this interesting because, you know, like movies, when they make a movie, often they'll take an audience and they'll put them in a theater and they'll show them the movie and people go, I don't like the ending. Or I don't like when the guy dies in the thing. And then they'll change it.

Right? Because it's research. But in music, you can't do that because movies are a thing you go to go see and you can simulate that experience. This is my theory. I don't think I can prove this. So you have an audience that's basically put into the actual experience that they would be having if they went to a theater.

But when you ask people to listen to music and give you an opinion, you're removing the spontaneity and the magic that happens and you're turning them, you know, it's like if you're thinking, you're stinking, right? And so you're actually, it's- Am I?

No, you're all right. I mean, I can't smell anyway, so it's fine. Maybe. So yeah, so it's an interesting thing because it's not something no one's ever been able to figure out a way to play music

to a group of people in a room and then walk out of there and go this is a hit this is not a hit except that you know there was a guy

many years ago who there's a crazy story but that's beside the point you know who's the first guy to figure out that if you

took a record and put it on in a club and people all got up and started dancing it was probably a hit. It's dance music. It's a specific thing. It's logical, though.

This is the only science we have in the business. Other than that, it's like alchemy. But with Lorde, I mean, the thing was really just to take our time was our strategy and not rush and not just go to pop radio but take it instead to um you know what we call triple a radio uh then alternative radio and then ultimately pop but let it build with the grassroots with the people the the tastemakers you know i mean the um for lack of a better word the cool kids you know um and you know that's and that's what we did. But in the case of Lorde, it was, you know. But it happened pretty quick. I mean, 15 to 17, she was already selling, you know, platinum.

Well, she had two monster number one hits, you know. And, you know, she also, like, I remember when she told me the name of the album was going to be Pure Heroine. And I was like, I actually, it took me a day and a half to recover from the genius of that, right? Like Pure Heroine with an E on the end and Lorde has an E on the end and it's just like... And what's her name? Does she call herself Lorde then or is it...

Well, she's always been Lorde as long as I've known her. And the crazy thing is, you know, I saw the first show she ever did, which was in Auckland. The first show she ever did with her own material, right? She had done shows in high school

and things like that, singing covers or whatever. But I was at this little club in Auckland, probably 70 people there. But she was Lorde. I mean, you know, sometimes you see artists that, like you say, start off and they're really bad. And then they have to grow. And you get better.

You do hundreds and hundreds of shows. You get better. She was Lorde. I mean, she was on stage owning it. You know, like. 15. 15. Yeah.

That's pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. She's amazing. So you knew when you saw her that you were like, yes, this is going to happen. This is big already. Yeah, when I heard it, when I saw it, it was just like, and I was just lucky to get it when I did because within weeks, other labels were calling

and it had gotten out. And it was one of those that it was hard to listen to that record and not really, you know. Wow. We all make huge mistakes. was one of those that was hard to listen to that record and not really you know wow we all make huge mistakes and all the creative businesses are fused are filled with incredible stories of the biggest things you know being passed on whether it's harry potter or star wars was dropped from the label it was on or even katie perry who i worked with was dropped by two labels before i

found her really or you know there's just there's so many examples right the confederacy of dunce is one that always sticks with me and um it's one of my favorite books and uh you know, there's just, there's so many examples, right? The Confederacy of Dunst is one that always sticks with me. And it's one of my favorite books. And, you know, the problem is that nobody in the music business, in the job that I'm in, bats 400. You know, like, it's like baseball. You can't bat 400. Like, if you're right three times out of 10, you go to the Hall of Fame.

You know, just like baseball. And so the thing is um it's true i believe in the book business in the movie business in the you know in the create any of the creative businesses like we just we're you know we're guessing the best we can but anyone who takes their own opinion too seriously is going to get bit in the ass because yeah we don't know you never know and The market tells you. It's also like, it's not a,

there's nothing, there's not, it's the farthest thing from a perfect science and these are, you know, they're diamonds in the rough typically when we meet them. Like,

Lorde's different, right, in every way. She had a finished song, like, Royals was finished. There's nothing to do. It was an imagination.

It was there. And so, but normally, we find an artist and they may not even have the song that's going to become their career

so you got to work with writers you got to put them together and you got to figure it out or they write the sounds or whatever it is yeah but so you know

and sometimes you'll kick yourself you'll hear somebody and you'll pass on it and then it's on the charts and you go how did I you know like

and that's you know I only allow myself to kick myself these days for 48 hours maximum you know what I mean you can't who's the biggest person

you passed on that you actually had a conversation with that you were like yeah i don't think it's for me it's not gonna be that good like i'm not feeling it and then it was just like home run i spent years in therapy trying to forget answer that question so i don't know is there anyone you remember oh yeah well listen i think i had the first meeting with Bon Jovi back in the day, you know. I mean, my bosses didn't want to give him some, I don't know, whatever. And I'd take some responsibility for it, too, but I was not in a position to sign anything like that. But I could have pushed harder. I certainly could have pushed harder for him.

Now, you know, Bon Jovi is an interesting one because I think everything worked out the way it was supposed to in a certain way because his first record was marginally successful, right? I think that was the second one or the third one that was the big one. But he was signed to, I think, Polygram. And that label was failing. Like it was going out of business. And they said, we're going to put everything behind this guy. They were smart enough to realize that he was their way out, so to speak. And some genius that was working at the label at the time said, I have an idea. Let's

make him write with Desmond Child. And Desmond Child was a guy, if I remember correctly, he was writing like disco music back then, right? And so it seemed like a strange combination. You have this sort of long-haired rocker guy from New Jersey and this gay, gay disco songwriter guy, like, it wouldn't seem logical but they wrote those big songs. They wrote,

you know, Living on a Prayer and One Dead or Alive and all the songs and like, so had I signed him, that doesn't happen. It wouldn't happen.

You know, there's no part of me that would have been smart enough or lucky enough or crazy enough to put him together with Desmond

who became a very important songwriter and a good friend. So that worked out. Wow. And then, so Katy Perry is another interesting story. And I have a lot of stuff I want to ask you about everything else you're

doing now, but this is fascinating to me. So Katy Perry was passed on a few people before you, or she was with labels before and then it didn't work out. They dropped her and then you found her or what was that? She was originally signed as a Christian artist. I remember that. Yeah.

And then dropped. And then she was signed to Columbia Records. And they couldn't figure out what to do with it. They tried putting her in a group, and they tried different things, and then they didn't want it. And then how I found her was that when I took over the job running Virgin Records, I hired a woman named Angelica Cobb to be our head of publicity. And she had been the number two in publicity at Columbia

and so but not too long after she started at Virgin um she's very talented and she said uh you know there's a girl at Columbia's getting ready to drop named Katie Perry I think she's a star you should meet with her and I was like okay so I met with her actually we had lunch at the polo lounge and she walked in and i was like immediately taken by her i was like this this girl's going same feeling i had when i met hayley williams the first time i was like this this is a star and she's without hearing a note of music i was like she's going her energy her the way she carries herself you know i you know my thing about stars is they walk and talk and and wear clothes differently than normal people do you You could take the same clothes off the rack

and put them on somebody else and put them on them, but they look great. And you're like, how's that? That's weird. They might not even be great looking. Not all of them are great looking, but they carry themselves with a certain je ne sais quoi that's just like, bam.

And I am pretty good at recognizing it. So with Katie, I had that feeling immediately. And then it was funny because I got her music. I loved it. I went back and played it for the top executives at the time. And they were like, this is horrible. Wow. Like, don't do this to us.

You know, like literally like that, like a visceral reaction. You're running the company this time, right? I was running the company. I was the chairman and CEO. But even still, you get, you know, everyone's influenced by something somebody says to you. You know, like no matter who it is, like somebody walks in and it's like, and you're like, hmm. And so for a moment, I was like, wait a minute. Maybe it's not that good.

Yeah. And so it was a month or so later, I was in my garage working out and I was listening to it on my headphones. And I was like, oh my God, I'm an idiot. Like, she's great. I hope she didn't sign with somebody else. I may have blown this thing. So I called her up and she was working at this little place in LA

making $10 an hour. She was working at the, what was the store? It's called Taxi. The clothing store? No, no. This is when she was working at a demo listening service called Taxi. That's funny.

I called her up and then that's how it all started. You said, I want to do the deal. Let's sign you. Let's figure this out. I spoke to her manager and got the lawyers involved and you know and then and then and then another uh serendipitous moment you know i invited her to our grammy but i was in december i invited her to our grammy party which was of course in the beginning of february and she arrived with a guy named dr luke who i knew because i had actually given him his first

break when he was a guitar player at cyanide Live. I gave him a record deal. He's hitting tons of hits. He's written, right? He and Max are like the top hit writers, right? Luke went on an insane roll. Anyway, so they walked in together and I was like, oh my god, you guys know each other? They're like, yeah, we're friends. I was like, well, you got to work together. Fantastic. It had some fits and starts, but I sort of like really pushed hard for that collaboration. And of course that became,

you know, again, did I know it was going to be that? No. But did it work out? Yes. I mean, they... Kiss the Girl was her big hit, right? They wrote Kiss the Girl and Hot and Cold

and all the rest of her hits up until very recently were co-written with them, except for Firework, which was written by, I think Katie wrote it with Stargate. Wow. So, which is always a funny thing.

But, you know, because it's Firework. It's a funny song. I thought it was only Fireworks. Is there a Firework? Is that a word? Does anybody know? Firework. Can you have one Firework?

Yeah, one Firework, I guess. Oh. Yeah, I guess. I'm not an English major. It's amazing. Yeah, I thought it was one of those words that was only pure But it worked it was a huge hit I mean that was a monster song One of her biggest ever

Yeah amazing well congrats on all this I mean I could ask more about that My brother's the number one jazz violinist in the world And your parents were opera singers They were opera singers yeah And my brother played with Les Paul in Times Square for 10 years he played at his uh funeral a number of years back and so i've grown up in the music world kind of watching him struggle as a violin jazz violinist which isn't you know a big industry no but he's made a name for himself and really like grown as an entrepreneur

and selling himself even in the jazz world you know's like, it's crazy how hard you have to work to kind of like make money in the jazz world, but he loves it. Yeah. That's like that old joke, right? What's the definition of an optimist? A violinist with a beeper. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So he made it work. So that's great for me. It's fascinating. I just love the industry and I've had, you know, I've had Scooter Braun on a few times and hear about his stories of success with Justin Bieber and all the things he's doing now. It's pretty cool to learn about what you guys do and how it all works. It's fascinating to me. You know Scooter well too? Yeah, he's an amazing,

amazing guy. It's interesting because I saw him recently and he told me that, I guess when he was a kid, he came to see me or something when I was running one of the labels I was running and he said I was really nice to him and gave him the time of day and whatever. And I was like, oh. I mean, obviously I wouldn't necessarily remember because he was just a kid. Yeah.

But it's good. Yeah, it's good. It's nice to be nice. Yeah, of course. It pays off in the long run, right? That's another thing my dad told me. You know, when I was, I must have been 10 years old

and my dad, we were at a party in New York at somebody's apartment. And he introduced me to a guy. And we walked away and he said, son, that's one of the richest guys in America. And I was like, wow, dad, how did he get so rich? And he said, by being friendly. And I was like, that always stuck with me. And, you know, for me, I don't know how to be unfriendly. Like when I've tried to be mean, like in business and stuff, or try to be an a-hole, like it's laughable.

to be mean like in business and stuff we try to be a whole like it's a it's laughable like yeah so i mean i've it's not like i've never lost my temper but i don't pretty even temper like i don't know my temper i mean it's not it's not that serious um so yeah but anyway so it's good it's good to know and i'm super proud of what he's doing i mean it's amazing yeah he's he's on an incredible role yeah he is unbelievable hit after hit and star after star. Speaking of getting upset and not getting upset, he likes his little transition here. I see where you're going. He likes his little transition here.

We'll have to come back on and talk more about the music world, but you're doing some incredible work in the criminal justice space. You've got a podcast right now that is called Wrongful Conviction, correct? Yeah. Wrongful Conviction. You're the founding board member of the Innocence Project,

which has exonerated nearly 350 wrongfully convicted individuals. Is that correct? That's right. And you're really part of the movement that's trying to bring awareness to the criminal justice system, how messed up it is, and how there's all these people that go to prison for so long. And my brother was in prison for four and a half years, not wrongfully. He got caught by selling drugs to an undercover cop.

And I think the time was maybe wrongful. He was sentenced six to 25 years for selling two sheets of LSD to an undercover cop because the judge wanted to make an example of him in Ohio at the time with the whole drug stuff happening, I guess, in the early 90s or whatever. And I'm sure that magically worked and nobody did LSD again after that. Exactly. Right. Exactly. But he actually talks about how he got out in four and a half years on good behavior and joined the prison band and actually learned jazz and

blues and hip hop because he was the only white member of the band and that's all they played was gospel and church music and and that's actually what helped him reinvent himself from a classical violinist to the most prolific jazz violinist in the world and um so he looks at it as like he's not mad at all he's like which, which I don't understand, you know, like all this time, he was only four and a half years and the people you work with are 35, 40 years that they spend. And you're telling me stories beforehand about how they're not mad and they forgive. And even if it's not their fault and they didn't do the crime, they get out and they forgive, which just blows me away that they're not angrier about half their life being gone because of something, the system being wrong.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that drives me every day to want to do more to help prevent future wrongful convictions and to help get the people out who are in. You know, my driving, and to help them once they do get out, you know, my driving passion for almost 25 years has been getting people out of prison who don't belong there and reforming the system so that people like your brother don't go in

in the first place because I'm glad he had a positive experience in there but he's in a very, very small minority and the fact is... I mean,

he went through some crap. I mean, there was definitely stories of like, I can't believe that you went through these certain things in prison. But his experience afterwards is positive, you know. You know, I'm on the board also, Louis, of various organizations

that are at the center of what I call the war against the war on drugs because I don't believe that anyone should go to prison for something they put in their own bodies. And the fact is that we have a lot more important things to worry about than people doing nonviolent drug crimes. And should they even be crimes? We can debate that, right? The fact is I'm very gratified that after working on this stuff since 92 or 3 to see that marijuana is becoming legal, right? And on the state level anyway.

is becoming legal, right? And on the state level anyway. And that, you know, things are moving in, at least on the state level, in a more sane direction and more in line with the rest of the world, right? The rest of the world doesn't do what we do, lock up. You know, and I'll talk to politicians and I'll say, you know, if another country did to our citizens

what we do to our citizens, we'd invade. We'd be like, we're coming in. We got tanks, we got planes. We're gonna save them, yeah. We'd be like, we're coming in. We got tanks. We got planes. We're going to save them, yeah. We're going to save them. We can't do this. We lock up people at the highest rate per capita of any nation in the history of the world, right?

We have 2.2 plus million people in prison in America. Oh, my gosh. You know, I was just in Iceland five months ago. I think they have like seven people in prison or something. Yeah. In the whole country. Greenland doesn't have a prison. It's crazy, right? If they have somebody really, really. Yeah. In the whole country. Greenland doesn't have a prison. It's crazy, right?

If they have somebody really, really terrible, they send them to Denmark. But they don't have a prison there. You know, like, so yeah, Iceland is, I've always wanted to go there. It must be extraordinary.

It's unbelievable. I can't wait. You've got to visit. It goes to the prison. It's like in the middle of like this oasis land of like beauty and it's unbelievable.

Well, yeah. Minimum security, you know, it's like. No, and it's interesting yeah well yeah and minimum security you know it's like no and it's interesting right if you go to places like scandinavia right they have the opposite approach like they're all about rehabilitation there are prisons there where the warden when you when you get sent to prison the whatever the group you get off the bus and the warden says listen you are going to be potentially my neighbors when you get out of here i'm going to treat you the way I would want to be treated myself.

And they have, you know, I mean, the prisons there, they go to an extreme. I mean, the prisons there, if you look at the pictures of the world's nicest prisons, you'll see they're in Norway, and they're nicer than any college dorm in America. Beautiful, right? They're beautiful.

It's ridiculous. So, I mean, it's actually over the top, but maybe that's closer to the right approach, this punishment thing. Like, punishment. over the top, but maybe that's closer to the right approach, this punishment thing. Punishment. And the thing that drives me crazy is non-violent drug offenders. That's how I got into this, because I read a story in the newspaper about a kid who was serving

15 to life, like your brother. Really? He was serving 15 to life for a non-violent first offense in New York State, and I was like, what? To life. 15 to life. I was like, what? No, no, that's not okay. I freaked out. I was like, I? No, no, that's not okay. Like, I freaked out. I was like, I have to do something about this. And so I ended up getting, to make a very long story short,

I ended up getting a music business, a defense attorney I knew from the music business because at the time I had Scott Weiland and Sebastian Bach and they were getting arrested a lot. So I had this guy in speed dial. So I called him. I said, is there anything you can do? He said, there's nothing you can do. It's the Rockefeller drug laws. It's just the way it is.

I was like, can you talk to the, because I had spoken to the kid's mother by now. I called her up. Her name was in the newspaper article. And I was like, we got to help. We got to do something. So he, as a favor to me, agreed to take the case pro bono. And several months later, we found ourselves in a courtroom in Malone, New York. I was sitting there holding – the mother's name was Shirley Lennon.

The kid's name was Steven. And I was sitting there with Stan and Shirley and me in the courtroom. And the judge, who looked like a conservative guy, he was an older guy with white hair, but maybe you can't judge a book by its cover. And, you know, the arguments were made back and forth because the lawyer had found some technicality. He had been in for nine years by now.

Oh, my goodness. And the kid didn't shackle. You've seen this, right? Of course. The leg irons shackled to the waist, the whole thing. He was a nonviolent first offender. Oh, my gosh. And so, and the judge says something like,

I haven't heard anything in this court today that under section this, statute this. But on the other hand, under the thing above, he goes with some legal mumbo jumbo, and I'm sitting there, I don't know what's going on. And he goes, the power granted to me, and he goes, the motion is granted. And I was like, and Bob, the lawyer, comes over,

and I was like, what just happened? And he goes, we won. I was like, we won? I go, we won. I go, we won. I go, that's incredible. That's the best feeling I've ever had in my life. Wow. And I'm sitting there with the mom and the thing.

And it's like out of a movie, right? And so I was like, I'm going to do more of that. That's what makes me tick. I just found it, right? That was like my eureka moment. I was like, that's it. So now I was like, and as somebody who had been a messed up kid when i was a kid you know i had been in the wrong place at the wrong i wasn't any major drug dealer

or anything but i'd been in the wrong place at the wrong time enough times that all i had to do was get unlucky my life took it could have taken a very terrible turn yeah because all you need to be is be in the car with somebody who's holding it or be in a house because the way the crazy laws in this country work is if everybody says it's not mine it's all of yours right and i don't know too many guys who are dealers who would say oh yeah that's my stuff right so everybody goes not mine then it's like well yeah guess what you're all going down for the same amount so um and in fact steven had had a guy my brother too there was like a group of five of them or something that all went down for a number of years and it's because they weigh the sheet right that's the crazy thing with the l it's because they weigh the sheet. That's the crazy thing with the LSD laws.

They weigh the sheet that it's on. And people out there should know this. Don't do that. Or they can weigh... If they want, they can weigh the... If you put it in a container with some sort of water or orange juice, whatever people put it in.

I don't know. I don't do drugs. But the thing is, if you do, then they can weigh that and charge you it sends you to prison for 9 000 years you know it's crazy it's crazy and why like why and so you know and this kid by the way steven he turned into be a successful businessman he has a contracting business he got a couple of kids last i heard and everything was fine you know and like um it was funny because uh five months after he got out i got a letter from his sister who i'd never met joanne her name was and said dear jason you don't know me but you

got me pregnant now that's not something a guy wants to hear generally speaking right for the fact that i was married at the time and i was faithful yeah yeah so i was i knew that wasn't it but so she says and she didn't have the same last name as him either right so she says well how did this happen well you know for the last several years my husband and i've been trying to conceive and the doctor told me that this dress and my brother's incarceration was preventing me and oh man now i'm pregnant and i just thought you should know and i was like that's cool very sweet so yeah so i became addicted like literally addicted to this feeling and so at the time i found out about this organization called families against mandatory minimums and i joined their

board uh they just started up and it's exactly what it sounds like. It's an organization dedicated to removing these mandatory sentences and giving judges back the power that they were supposed to have in the first place so that a judge could have looked at your brother and said, you know what? Maybe he wasn't dealing or maybe he wasn't the guy and anyway

he's a virtuoso violinist and maybe he should go to a six month thing or something or whatever. Yeah, a program or a rehab or whatever. I mean, look, you know, my thing is if people do drugs and they don't hurt anybody else and they don't operate a car or put somebody else in harm's way as a result, but they want to sit at home or they want to go to a concert, whatever it is, and they're just going to

walk around and be dopey. Like, fine. Who cares? Where's the problem? There is no problem. Like, there's no problem. So the problem is not drugs. The problem is the war on drugs.

That's the problem. And it has a very, very real consequence. There's so many real consequences. And, you know, the philosophy, and I want to get to the innocent stuff, but the philosophy of this movement is it's called harm reduction, right? So the first thing we have to do is accept that drugs have always been and will always be a part of society, right? Cavemen did peyote. We know that, right?

Little children spin in a circle because they like the feeling of being dizzy. It's never going to change. You can't prohibition your way out of it. You can't interdict your way out of it. Anybody watch Narcos? Like, come on. So you can't. I love that show.

Right. So incredible. It's amazing. Unbelievable. So the fact is what you have to do is accept that and then figure out how to reduce the amount of harm that drugs do to society. And one of the problems with that is that this mass incarceration thing, and a lot of the conservatives now are on the right side of this,

the libertarians, right? They don't like all these prisons and all this money being spent and all this, they call it the big government, right? Yes. So we have a good coalition of the left and the right now

to try to remove, to try to get rid of this insane war on drugs, which now we know Nixon admitted, Nixon said to Haldeman, who now admitted it in an interview, that he didn't want a war on drugs. He wanted a war on black people and hippies. Oh, my gosh.

So he called it a war on drugs because he couldn't call it that. And still, we're not going to. So anyway, yeah, and your brother, unfortunately, got caught up in it. And so did so many. Well, not 2.5 million. Those are in prison, right? But so many of those are in drugs, did the drug stuff. A big percentage of those are in for nonviolent,

very low level drug crimes. It's insane. And just to talk about, because I had this thought also, I watched the Mike Myers documentary on, what was it called? Have you seen this documentary

about like, he goes to all these other countries and takes the best ideas from these countries and says, America, we need to do this.

I don't know if you've seen this documentary. It's pretty fascinating. Michael Moore, isn't it? Michael Moore, what did I say? I haven't seen it yet. Where to documentary. It's pretty fascinating. Michael Moore, isn't it? Michael Moore. What did I say? I haven't seen it yet. Where to Invade Next it's called.

Yes. Oh, my gosh. So he went to these prisons in whatever, Denmark or these other countries, and they're literally like in resorts. Yeah. They have their own bikes. They have their own homes. And like with lakes and stuff, and they're just riding around.

It's like they're living in a compound, like in a Malibu beach resort or something. They just can't leave the compound, but they're allowed to do whatever they want when they want. They all have knives. Like they're cooking. They talk to all the chefs and they have like big butcher knives all in the, uh,

the kitchen. And Mike's asking like, what did you do? He's like, I'm in here for murder. And they're like, when they let you have knives, like cutting up onions or whatever with the rest of the people in here? And they're like, yeah, they trust us, and they want us to, you know,

rehab or whatever, and they want us to feel safe, and they want us to, whatever it is. It's like crazy almost. Yeah, they have their own rooms with locks on the doors on the inside. Yes. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that they have less violence in their prisons than we have in ours. And, you know, it's interesting.

There's a guy named Tony Papa who's a guy who was sentenced to 15 years to life in New York State for nonviolent first offense. He actually painted his way out of prison. He became a museum painter in prison and then was pardoned by the governor after 12 years. Oh, my gosh. Now he works at the Drug Policy Alliance, which is the leading organization. I'm on the board there, too. Sounds like all I do is serve on boards, but there's other stuff. Once in a while I like to play golf or ice hockey. But anyway, so yeah, Tony, he says, he has a great saying where he

says, if we can't control the flow of drugs in a maximum security prison, how can you possibly hope to control them in a free society? And we know, and that's true. Anyone that works in a maximum security prison how can you possibly hope to control them in a free society right and we know and that's true like anyone that works in a prison or you talk to that's in a prison says you can get drugs you people crazy isn't it crazy right so the fact is um it's it's it's pure insanity to try to think that you can uh um you know uh whatever criminalize your way whatever law enforcement your way. My grammar is terrible, but you know what I'm trying to get to. You can't police your way out of it. You can't interdict your way out of it.

You have to accept it and then give people that need the help a chance to go to rehab, which I did, and help people just go on with their lives. A lot of people, they don't need rehab and they don't need anything else. They just need to be left alone. A lot of people, the overwhelming majority of people that do drugs are fine. And by the way, a lot of them are working in the most responsible positions in our society, right?

I mean, so it's like, it's fine. We made a problem out of a problem that isn't a problem. It's not a problem. You know what I mean? There are some problems associated with it, of course. I'm not going to be Pollyanna-ish, right? I mean, there's people who get really fucked on drugs and ruin their lives and ruin the lives of their families.

But, you know, don't get me started talking about drugs versus alcohol or whatever, right? And at the end of the day, it's still the same thing. It's harm reduction and tearing families apart by throwing parents or children in prison. And then what happens to them when they're there? And then the fact that they can't get a job when they get out. And then it's like the ripple effect is so terrible.

What it's done to the communities, particularly urban communities in this country, it's like a hurricane that hit these communities because of these ridiculous drug crimes and sweeps and things. And like, stop. Why don't we change it? Well, we have to change the laws. And there's a lot of movement in that direction.

You know, there's more momentum on it than ever. People, you know, the public, it's interesting to see, right? We're in what I call the new age of activism, right? Ever since whatever that was, that very dark day november 20th um you know people are in the streets people are voting people are starting to realize and people and it started you know before that as far as what are we talking about ferguson are we talking about i'm talking about nationally right oh gosh you know the women's march and all that other stuff too right but but so many now gonna have a scientist march there's gonna be a you know everything yeah

everything so um the but but even before then, people were starting to vote and decriminalizing, you know, people are now, death penalty laws are falling around the country, right? You know, unfortunately, there was a terrible setback in California and in Nebraska on the last election, which is beyond my comprehension

how you could have a death penalty speed up law in California that actually passed on a referendum. It's insane. If you want to guarantee the execution of innocent people, this would be how to do it. And then it's crazy anyway because California doesn't even execute people. They just put them on death row, which I don't think anyone should be executed, but that's beside the point.

Because I can't live with the idea that we should execute one innocent person, that we should be okay with that. And know, that we should be okay with that. And we know that we execute lots of innocent people. Crazy. Yeah, probably 10% of the people have been executed in this country. No way. Yeah, yeah. I would say so.

Just because if it matches the crime and they point it to that person, they're going to get executed. Well, that's the perfect segue, right? Because, you know, when you deal with subjects of innocence, that's really my, you know, my consuming passion for the last have you gotten anyone off death row yeah we've gotten 20 or 21 people off death row so far and gotten them removed from it and then removed from prison yeah because they're innocent you know they're innocent and we know that there's been multiple people executed that were innocent as

well like cameron todd willingham in texas jesse to pharaoh um in flor people executed that were innocent as well, like Cameron Todd Willingham in Texas, Jesse Taffaro in Florida. They were innocent, but they're gone. I mean, we executed them. As a state, we executed them. And I don't see how anyone can be okay with that. I mean, I think reasonable people can have a debate about whether the death penalty should exist. I don't believe so.

It's been proven over and over again to not be a deterrent to anything. And it's barbaric, and it's expensive. And you can't take it back. You know, you can't take it back. Those guys, those people can't come back. They're innocent. They're, they're gone. You know what I mean? So and then and then there's so many other problems with it. But and then, you know, the fact is that we're fifth in the world, the number of people that we execute. Like, really? The only countries ahead of us are like China, I think Iran, Saudi Arabia, and there's one other. And it's not a good list to be on. So it's just so bizarre.

Like Western Europe, they don't execute people. They don't need to execute people but the but but back to the other thing i mean the growing awareness um that has result partially been a result of pop culture right because with shows like making a murderer and such a crazy show and other ones people are becoming they're getting frustrated they're getting mad like you did 25 years ago right yeah i mean like this is not okay what are we gonna do to change it right that could happen by the way whoever's listening that could happen to you you're not immune from it it could happen to anybody i mean excuse me it typically happens to people who are poor you know um i mean the overwhelming number of people who are wrongfully convicted are poor but not all of them you know marty tankliff who's been on my show, Wrongful Conviction, was a kid from

a wealthy family in Long Island who's 17 years old and woke up and found his parents murdered and was framed for the murder. No way. Yeah. And, you know, his story is so deep. I mean, you have to get into the whole thing and you should hear him. He's very eloquent. He served, Marty served 17 years in prison.

For the 17 yearyear-old? He got charged as an adult? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, and the story is so twisted. I mean, first of all, you wake up and you find your parents. Well, his mother was dead and his father was dying. Oh, my gosh.

Right? Oh. And he calls the cops. He's holding his dad, you know. Oh, my gosh. And his dad's bleeding, you know, profusely. Meanwhile, there's a note on the dad's desk, which is a note, a promissory note from his business partner who owed him a lot of money

and it was demanding that the money be paid. And that guy, you know, the problem was the dad who was an honest businessman, who was a successful businessman, had gotten into business with this guy who had a chain of bagel stores in Long Island. It turned out he found out that they were fronts for a drug operation.

And the other guy's son was dealing with some of the cops in Long Island at the time, and it was like they didn't want to arrest that guy. And he was the obvious suspect. And Marty, when the cops came, said, that's the guy that did it. He threatened to kill my dad. He owed him all this money.

He was the last guy to leave the house last night. And that guy, by the way, went and faked his own death, moved to California. No way. Changed his name, shaved his beard, his head, grew a beard. But why would you look? I mean, I'm not a detective, but I don't know. Maybe you should take a look at that guy, right?

But they didn't. They just decided that they were going to get Marty, and that's what they did. And then it gets so twisted because he was living with his sister while he was waiting for his trial until she found out that 80% of the will was in his name, and then she decided that she wanted that money. Oh, my gosh.

She threw him out and got involved in trying to get him convicted. Shut up. She became the sole heiress. You can't inherit money when you murder your parents. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so, I mean, it's like Shakespeare, right? This is like right out of Shakespeare, like a tragedy of, you know. And how does he cope with it?

Does he forgive everyone and move on? He's an amazingly positive guy. I mean, you know, he's know, he just graduated law school. You know, he's going to take the bar. He does a ton of public speaking. Oh, my gosh. And he's a big part of the movement to prevent wrongful convictions. And it's amazing because I recently spoke at Georgetown,

and then the professor took me to a class that he teaches in a prison there called Jessup. So I actually was in Jessup Maximum Security Prison. And this professor happened to have grown up with Marty. They grew up at the time they were babies together. Crazy. And that's why he went to law school because he wanted to help his friend. And he told me that Marty had 17 appeals, and every time it would fail, and this guy would go to see him, and he'd be like,

Marty, I'm so sorry, but I'm going to say, Marty, be like, why? Dude, come on. We got this. Wow. We're going to do this. Next time, we got it. Yeah, we got it. We got it.

I mean, sounds like, you know, probably has a lot of the same DNA that you've got, I guess, right? Because he was facing impossible odds. He's like, there might be a chance. Let's go. Yeah. But ultimately, you know, he got it and now he's out and he's married and he's, you know, he's doing great. He got a settlement from the state, which is, you know, deserved.

And we talked about that before. A lot of these guys don't get anything. But he was able to prove the misconduct that led to his. So he got a bigger settlement than most. He got a good settlement. I mean, enough to start a new life. And now, like I said, he's, you know, he just graduated law school. I'm super proud of him.

He's just a sweet, lovely guy. 17 years. Yeah, 17 years. And that's, you know. It's a lifetime. Typically, the people that we exonerate, I think the average amount of time served of our exonerees is about 14 years. Oh, my gosh.

And, of course, then there's the ones that are sentenced to death, which is a whole other level of insanity. You know, like, I mean, just imagine that for a second. How do they feel when they know they're going to die and then they get out of it? Like, what do you... Yeah, I mean, I asked them that on the podcast. What did they do? On wrongful conviction.

I try to highlight those moments, like the moment when they were convicted, the moment when they were exonerated. What did it feel like? You know, I was thinking about Sunny Jacobs, who we were talking about before. evicted the moment when they were exonerated what did it feel like you know um you know i was thinking about sunny jacobs who we were talking about before i mean when she was finally freed you know she said she just walked out of the courthouse like into the sunshine in fort lauderdale and she was like now what do i do like she had a box with like a couple pairs of underwear a couple t-shirts a couple pairs of pants and she said she had her walkman and like 40 and that was it and she's like you know what do i do now how long was she in for she was in for 17 years also coincidentally

now they talk about marty but she was sentenced to death and her husband was executed her husband was a guy named jesse tafero they were convicted and this is a story if you only listen to one episode of my podcast and and this is all of them i know the stories and that each story is crazy like every week i'm like i thought i had heard everything you know and now it's like this one is crazier than the last one and then you get to sunny story and it's like okay somebody's just like stop this is like i can't you know it's it's unbelievable like i said to you like we were talking earlier i said said, if Quentin Tarantino and Victor Hugo sat down and tried to write the craziest screenplay they could come up with, they would stop short of this.

They'd be like, they'd need a lot of alcohol to get to this place. And then they'd be like, no, we still got to pull out a couple of these elements. Because Sonny's story, in a nutshell, right, she and her husband, Jesse, were in Florida with their two kids. And the kids were nine and 10 months old. And I think the son was Eric and the daughter's Christina. And they were in a car. They took a ride.

Their car broke down. And a friend of Jesse's offered to give them a ride across the state to go to her parents' house where they were going to get a car or something to go back to their home in North Carolina. They're at a rest stop. And a cop comes and shines a light in the window and the driver unbeknownst to them was a felon and didn't feel like giving him his license and registration so instead he pulled out a gun and shot the cop and then runs around as the gun battle ensues with the other cop who was a visiting actually canadianable. So he's killed the state trooper, and now he's shooting it out with the constable.

Sonny's in the back. They had been sleeping. She's in the back now laying on top of her kids, trying to protect them from this gunfire, and he ends up killing the other cop. And so then he points the gun at them, and he's like, get in the cop car, right? And Sonny says to her husband, I don't want to get in the cop car.

This guy's crazy. And he says, we we have to we're witnesses now they'll probably kill us too so they get go to get in the cop car and just some of the details right so her son gets out of the car and he's sleepy and groggy and he slips in the dead cop's blood and falls right like tarantino right yeah and they have to scoop him up they get in the cop car then they they end up in going through this neighborhood and it's morning and the guy realizes driving a cop car is not a good idea so he stops and grabs a guy who's getting his newspaper or something an old guy who and makes him get the keys to his car and then kidnaps him that happens to be an orange cadillac so now you've got the six of them in this orange cadillac and of course there's a roadblock and then there's another gun battle right and

sunny's back laying on top of her kids. And so I said to Christina, because Christina, the daughter, was on the show with me, and she had never spoken publicly before about what it was like growing up, having her father executed and her mother in prison for her entire childhood and adolescence. And she was there. And she was there, yeah. And so I was like, holy, you survived two gun battles before you were one year old. You're kind of a miracle baby.

So before everything went wrong. And then the cops arrested all of them. Sonny was like, finally, they're going to save me from this maniac. But instead, they hit Jesse with a rifle butt. And when cops get killed, they get after everybody. And they went after everybody. And so, you know, the story gets so much crazier because she was sentenced to life by a jury. And the judge, whose name was Maximum Dan, was a former state trooper who had a little electric chair on his desk that he would – you could touch and it would zzz like that.

So he overruled the jury and sentenced her to death. And so she was the – and that's not legal anymore except in alabama it's the only state where a judge can do that um but it's just one guy's opinion right so um so now so then she ends up on death row where there's no there's no one else on death row there were no other women on death row because there hadn't been anyone sentenced in a long time in florida at that time the death row was a woman so she was all alone and the guards weren't allowed to talk to her because they didn't been anyone sentenced in a long time in Florida at that time. The death row was a woman, so she was all alone. And the guards weren't allowed to talk to her because they didn't want them becoming attached to her, and then they would execute her, and then they would feel bad.

So she literally didn't get to speak to anybody for five years. And ultimately, getting as quickly as I can to the end of the story, the kids were now being raised by her parents. Her parents, five years later, are in a plane crash. Oh, my gosh. So the grandparents die, right? Christina, by the way, the daughter, now has a son named after her father who was executed, Jesse,

and a daughter, Bella, named after her grandmother who was killed when she was taking care of her. So, I mean, you know, you can't make that up either, right? So anyway, the kids end up in foster care. The husband ends up getting executed after 15 years. And then it just gets crazy. 15 years. Yeah, 15 years in prison and then executed.

And his was the execution where the electric chair supposedly malfunctioned, although we think it may have been intentional, and flames shot out of his head. So they executed him three times before he died. Oh, no. Well, you can't execute somebody three times, but they electrocuted him three times, and after that they took the electric chair out of circulation.

So, yeah, and ultimately Sonny was – oh, here's – I got to tell you this part of the story. And there's so much more. You have to hear the rest of the details on the show, but on wrongful conviction. But Sonny ends up – her new lawyers end up finding the only witness against her, which was a jailhouse snitch, right? Which is a common thing, right?

The cops will get somebody else's in jail, and they'll go to them and say, like they did in this case. This is a woman who was arrested for passing bad prescriptions. She was a college student in Florida. And they said, look, you've got a felony hanging over your head. Or you can just tell us that she told you that she did this. You'll be doing society a favor. She killed two cops and we'll let you out.

So she testified and she said in the courtroom, she said, she told me she did it. She loved it. And she can't wait to do it again. Now, Sonny was a hippie, right? She wasn't trying to. And by the way, like I said on the show, like if you're going to go kill gonna go kill two cops do you really bring your kids like is that really how you roll yeah i mean like that doesn't make any sense and sunny it's crazy like she'll say um one of her sayings and i see i've seen her speak she's amazing she says i went into prison a wife a vegetarian a wife and

a mother and i came out an orphan a widow and a um a – an orphan, a widow, and – oh, there's another thing I'm thinking of in a second. An orphan, a widow, and a – I forgot. A mediator or what? Something. No, no, no. But anyway, it was great until I just screwed it up. But anyway, so it'll come back to me.

So they found the witness and gansed her who now lived in Wyoming. And they went and saw her and told her what she had done. And she felt terrible and she wanted to make it right. But she said she was so scared of the prosecutor because he was so scary to her in the first place. And he was still there. She comes to testify. You're not ready for this, by the way. She flies.

They get a hearing. She flies to Florida. The witness who saw that she didn't do it. The witness who testified and said falsely that she had heard her say that she did it. Yes. The jailhouse snitch. Got it.

Who made up the whole story. Now we call them incentivized witnesses. They're no longer called jailhouse snitches. Yes. Incentivized witness. She comes to court.

Sonny's brought in. After being through this unbelievable saga, right? She gets on the stand, testifies for the defense, says she made up the whole story apologizes to sunny the prosecutor gets up to cross-examine her and you'll hear sunny on the on my podcast talk about how she doesn't talk and then she starts breathing heavily

and she's holding her chest and sunny's like, what's going on? And then she's like, oh my God, she's having a heart attack. She had a heart attack on the stand. No. And Sonny's like, don't die. Oh my gosh. Don't die. You can't die. And she had a heart attack.

It was wheeled out of the courtroom. Shut up. She lived, but her testimony was no good because you can't use defense testimony if you can't cross-examine the witness. So Sonny goes back to prison. No. And ultimately, this woman was allowed to testify by videotape.

Oh, my gosh. And so she was eventually freed. And now, you know, she's a yoga teacher. She teaches meditation. And she lives on the coast of Ireland with her new husband, who's also a death row exoneree that she met at an Amnesty International event. Yeah, you can't make that up either. His name is Peter Pringle.

He's incredible. He was convicted of killing two cops in Ireland and sentenced to death. They came within 10 days of being executed before he was exonerated. So he served 15 years. They have a lot to talk about. And now they run this place called the Sunny Center, where my daughter's on their board. And they bring people over, other exonerees, and they teach them meditation and yoga,

and they teach them farming, and they just help them get their life back together, which is the most transformative thing. You know, I find for these exonerees, I get so much gratitude in my attitude from being around them, because like you said, they have this amazing sense of grace and this lack of bitterness that is like, you know know if we all had that in our daily lives you know we just things would just be better right people be getting more stuff done and and and feeling happier

and stuff but they have this surreal ability to just transcend this experience and forgive and like you know it's it's totally nuts and so and the thing that seems to drive them the most is helping other people helping other exonerees wow and so you know they know the pain they went through you know and they want to prevent other people from having to go through that there There's such a selfless love that they have for each other and for, you know, it's mind-blowing. Yeah, you can see I'm kind of obsessed. I mean, I got into this kind of frustration around it when I saw Making a Murderer. I mean, originally with my brother, you know, seeing that happen and what that was like. Very personal.

Yeah, and then seeing Making a Murderer and watching it, I was just like, you know, documentary or no documentary, you know, obviously they skew it in one direction, but it's like, and other people had other opinions about it. But I'm like, either way, it's messed up the system on how people are convicted and what it's for and all these things. And it doesn't matter if you didn't do it or not. No.

It doesn't matter if you're innocent or not, which is messed up to me, which pisses me off, right? Yeah, somewhere. And now I'm watching The Night Of. Yeah. Have you seen that one? Yeah. I'm in like episode two and I'm like, this is crazy, right?

Or episode five. Yeah, somewhere it went from trying to solve the crime and get justice to trying to just get rid of the case. And it's so bizarre because the other thing, Louis, that people need to understand is that in 50%, around 50% of the cases in which the Innocence Project has exonerated the innocent person by finding the DNA that proves without any doubt that they didn't do it, we've also gotten a hit

by putting it to the central database of DNA that exists in this country now. I think it's called CODIS or something. And anyway, what we find is that in 50% of the cases, we identify the actual perpetrator. And in almost all of those cases, that individual has gone on to commit other horrible crimes,

other rapes, murders, stabbings, whatever. And those people never needed to be victimized if the system worked correctly. And I always say there's a lot of good cops, there's a lot of good prosecutors, but there's too many bad ones. And the ones that are bad do an incredible amount of damage, not only to the people who are wrongly convicted,

but to the other victims of the actual perpetrator who never got taken off the street in the first place. And that's unacceptable. No matter how you feel about law and order or this or that or whatever, that's got to be unacceptable to everyone. You know, we have to get back to a place of motivation. You know, we need to have prosecutorial accountability. We don't have any in this country.

There's no other profession where you can just completely screw up, destroy someone's life, and just be like – No accountability. Oops. No accountability. You don't get disbarred. You don't get disciplined. You don't get thing. You don't get sued. You can't get sued if you're a prosecutor so this is one of the things we're

working on too i mean we're fixing it and we're getting closer in a certain case where we you know there's you know how many prosecutors those have in this country have gone to prison for intentionally wrongfully convicting someone zero two two the duke lacrosse guy who served one day you should watch that movie too by by the way, on 30 on 30. I've seen it. Amazing. The guy who was just going after the whole team. Yeah.

Yeah. That guy, Nifong. Sick bastard. Yeah. We've now discovered another case where he- All the press and media around him, what he said and how he- Those kids were- They didn't do anything.

They didn't do anything, but they were lucky. They had the resources to defend themselves, right? Luckily. And that one incredible attorney, the young attorney that read that 2,500 pages, they tried to throw him off the trail, but he got it, right? That's crazy. So him, and then there was a guy named Anderson in Texas who sent this guy, Michael Morton, to prison for 25 years before we exonerated him for the murder of his wife

and intentionally withheld three pieces of exculpatory evidence. And everybody who watches TV knows you can't do that. It's called a Brady violation. You have to, if you have exculpatory evidence, first of all, you shouldn't be prosecuting the case. If you have evidence that proves that the guy didn't do it, you should be dropping the thing and looking for the real killer. And in his case, again, the guy turned out to be a serial killer.

But the other thing is you have to turn it over to the defense. But he didn't do it. And eventually we found that evidence. And we also found that in that case, the prosecutor had said on the stand, they had an incentivized witness in that case. And he said that he didn't make a deal with the guy. And we found notes in the prosecutor's own writing

where he made a deal with the guy, where he was going to let him out of a robbery conviction. And this guy ended up getting sentenced to 10 days in prison. That's it? He served three. He was disbarred, at least, and so was Nifong. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I mean.

Sad. And here's the craziest thing. So Michael Morton, you got to hear this guy speak. He's been on 60 Minutes three times, and he's the only person. But anyway, he talks about how he was in prison for 24 years and seven months, and then he'll go 24-7. Like, it's pretty ironic. But that's beside the point.

He's a guy who is, like, you can literally see a halo over his head. And he's been on my show on Wrongful Conviction. Wow. But he is a guy who, at the hearing for the judge, who the prosecutor, Anderson, had become a judge by now. He was arrested in his chambers, right? And at the hearing, after he had pled guilty

of these three felonies which turned into misdemeanors. He was a prosecutor and now he's the judge for the case. Right, right. That happens a lot. A lot of these bad prosecutors become judges.

So at the hearing in which he was to be sentenced, the judge, Anderson, who was the prosecutor, who took this guy's life literally away for the murder of his wife and made an orphan out of his son and the whole thing, right? So this judge is now going to be sentenced.

And the presiding judge says to Michael Morton, who's there, is there anything you'd like to say? And Morton says, Your Honor, I hope you'll show mercy on this man and i'm watching this and i'm going i want to kill this guy and i'm not even a violent guy like i want to strangle this guy not you know i mean like the guy that did this like how can you do that like how do you how do people sleep at night? What the, what are you thinking? Like, I mean, so yeah.

So it's, it's really is, it's, it's inexplicable, but it's beautiful to see, you know? And, you know. I feel like we could talk for like five hours about this. Because I want to know more about your thoughts on making a murder and your thoughts on the other, what's the other documentary about the woman we were talking about Sarah oh Amanda Knox Amanda Knox which is below my mind as well there's an Italy right or something which is crazy don't get into it because I we could talk about it forever no no no but she's been on my show exactly she's incredible I'll just say that if you got incredible incredible like

an ethereal being yes if you guys want more information on this, make sure to check out Wrongful Convictions with Jason Flom on iTunes because this is fascinating stuff. I mean, we could talk about this forever. Yeah, Spotify, Google, it's all those places. Exactly. I want to ask a final couple of questions because, again, we could go on this forever.

Do you have a hard out or no? No. Okay. I'm getting this from a lot of my female friends lately. That they're very frustrated about what's happening in the world. They feel this passion and this anger or whatever it is. They want to make a difference. But a lot of them feel helpless.

What can these people do who have a passion for making change, but feel completely helpless? Or they do one march and then they're like, okay, now what? What can they do to actually impact some type of movement like you have done or impact some type of change the way you've done it? What would you, what would your advice be to people out there like that? Oh, listen, there's so many, whatever their cause is. There's so many incredible organizations that you can join up with. I mean, whether it's change.org or whether you can,

I mean, I think it starts with writing letters and making phone calls to your- Does that work? Does it help her? I mean, look, we live in a strange altered reality, but it always has worked. I mean, we saw even with the confirmation of that, I don't want to choose my words carefully,

Betsy DeVos, right, which is one of the most surreal nominations in the history of this country and now appointments. But there were two senators who said they changed their vote, two Republican senators said they changed their vote because of all the pressure they got. So I think you have to make phone calls and write letters. It's extremely important.

I mean, they care. Politicians care. If they get enough letters, enough phone calls on a certain subject, they know it. Because they want to stay in. They want to be. They want to stay in. That's one of the things that drives them, right?

So that's one of the things you can do. But then, I mean, whatever your particular area of interest is, if you're a woman, maybe you want to go check out Planned Parenthood's website. Or maybe you want to go to – I mean, there's just – there's dozens and dozens of organizations doing incredible work all over the place now, right? There's more springing up. I mean, it's so – it's actually – as much as I wish we weren't in the state that we're in, it's exciting to see the number of people that are signing up to work at the ACLU or to become, you know, getting involved with any type of, you know, any one of these organizations that's trying to do good, right? It's just about doing good. I mean, now it feels like we're being swept away

by a wave of the opposite, right? Of just selfishness and xenophobia and evil and wrong and persecution. So what do we do? We react, right? We have to become activists. And it's happening. These marches are amazing.

These things are like, we haven't seen that. It's the new age of activism. We haven't seen that since the 60s. Crazy. And if your thing is criminal justice, if you hear some of these stories and you're outraged, then go to InnocenceProject.org. Go to FAMM, Families Against Mandatory Minimums.org. It's FAMM.org or the drug policy line. So hearing the stories about your brother.

And again, it just makes me more motivated. Like, I don't, that shouldn't happen. I don't want that to happen to the next kid who's just trying to get high and go to a concert and not bother anybody. Like, if you're bothering somebody, if you're going to hurt somebody, I get it. Then you need to be, you know, we need as a society to protect ourselves. We don't need to protect yourself from yourself. You should be able to do with your body what you want to, you know?

And that's basically that. So it's weird. We're okay with everybody having guns and shooting each other, but we're not okay with somebody getting high. What's going on here? Like are we in Alice in Wonderland? It doesn't make any sense. Right, right.

You know, so, yeah. And by the way, the good news is you can Google. Like, you can probably Google, I'm a woman and I'm angry. What do I do? I would be interested to see what comes up, you know. It'll steer you in the direction of a lot of great things. I mean, there's, listen, we need to help more than ever. There's more people willing to help than ever.

You know, the amount of, I mean, I was so excited to see the talent agency, UTA. Did you see what they just did? They canceled their Oscar party and they're taking all the money they're going to spend on the Oscar party and giving it to the ACLU, right? And they're going to have a protest instead. There's like, there's, you know,

to see organizations getting involved in that way. But individuals, every individual has to get involved and do something. i hope i answered the question yeah that's great i ran i'm also curious about you know you've been around a lot of celebrities and people of with massive followings massive influence but i'm curious about how Hillary had every celebrity endorsement promoting her for her, and there was like zero celebrity endorsements. And they were all against, it seemed like, at least from my point of view, against Trump. And yet somehow it didn't work in order of moving the needle for Hillary.

But having people against Trump, everyone against him, it seems like he still was able to make it happen. So are celebrities actually as influential as we think they are in making change or is that completely irrelevant? No, I don't, I don't think it's completely irrelevant. I don't know. Um, I mean, you need a social scientist to talk about what the actual impact of somebody like LeBron James, who took such a courageous stand, or any of them, Jay-Z, or any, you know, what impact does that have on changing people's opinions? There's such a small section of people in America who are undecided, you know?

And so you're trying to influence those people. Then there's, for reasons that I'll never understand, people have this visceral dislike or stronger of Hillary, and I don't understand it. I mean, the woman has spent her life. Did she make mistakes? Of course she made mistakes, right? When you're a public figure for as long as she is, there's going to be something, right? But the fact is, the idea that people, fact is the idea that people i don't know if it was misogyny i don't know if it was um but it was it was it was misplaced whatever it was that was bothering you about hillary it doesn't matter you know it's like you you when your option is catastrophe right and the other person is somebody you think might have done something with some emails. It's not rational.

And now that you see what's happening, a lot of Republicans, I was seeing today on the news, a lot of Republicans are at these town hall meetings yelling at their representatives going, don't take away my health care. I voted for Trump, don't take away my health care. Wait a minute, wait a minute. And people are saying, well, I didn't think he would actually do it all these people voting against their best interest it doesn't make any sense it's monumentally incomprehensible

and it breaks my heart because I think if Biden would have won he probably would have won all 50 states and then there's the other problem, which is that she won by 3 million votes. I mean, what kind of country do we live in? It's like we're supposed to be the greatest country on Earth. Go to another country.

Next time you go to Iceland or wherever the hell you go, ask them who won the popular vote, and they're going to put you in a facility overnight. They're going to be like, this guy, he's confused. He needs to be in a safe place where he can't hurt himself. Right, right. Like, there's no popular vote, idiot. Right?

There's no popular vote. There's a vote. What do you mean, popular vote? There's a vote. The one who got more votes was the winner. The one who got less votes went home, and that's it. And so not only do we have a country where 3 million more people voted for Hillary, and then there's all the other people who are completely out of their minds

that voted for Jill Stein or, you know, what's his name? Johnson, right? Who couldn't name one world leader. But then there's the other problem, which is that if you look at the Senate, right? Because of the way the electoral stuff breaks down, right? I think one of the statistics I saw that of the 48 Democratic senators, they received combined like 73 million votes. And of the 52 Republican ones, they received a combined total of like 40 something million votes. So it's like we, you know, we live in a system which is archaic where somebody's vote in Wyoming is worth four times as much

as your vote in California. Does that make you a quarter of a person? You look like a full person. What are you, like 6'1"? 6'4". 6'4"? I mean, you're at least a whole person. You might be a person and a quarter.

I don't know. But your vote counts 25% as much as some of the people. And the sad thing is that it's actually you know paradoxically worked out in a way where you know the people who are uh less educated let's say um are the ones who have a much higher influence on the outcome of the elections and so i don't know whether the um uh whether what the effect was of the celebrities on the outcome of the election, but I do know that at the end of the day, the damn thing was decided by the director of the FBI, the Russian interference.

It was a perfect storm of terribleness. Wow. And even with all of that right the fake investigation of hillary and the russian the thing and all the other stuff which at one time there would have been like every politician in the country going this is we have to overturn this russia interfere russia right not like canada russia yeah it's crazy. But it's like, oh yeah, Russia,

we'll have an investigation or something, you know, when we get around to it. So, it's pretty, it's pretty bizarre. You know,

we live in this very strange alternate universe. She won, but she lost. Senate, we won, but we lose.

You know, the House of Representatives, same thing, it's all gerrymandered and, you know, so, I mean,

I don't, I don't know. It's scary times. Politics will be your next thing you go after, after you can solve the case of the criminal injustice system, right? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Maybe we'll get into it together.

Exactly. I would do that with you in a second. Exactly. We can drop some knowledge on everybody. It would be a lot of fun. But yeah, I think, look, the message yeah i think look you know you're not the the message i want to give people is you're not you're not powerless the situation is scary as hell probably scariest times that ever in this country since at least the revolutionary war and um but you but you

have you what we can't do is cower in a corner right i mean i i allow myself a certain amount of time each day to be angry and uh and to be you know depressed you know i'll read a story like the one in the newspaper this morning about that poor woman in arizona who was just deported you know and now her kids are like like sitting there like why and you know they you know and then then you go okay what am i gonna do today i gotta do something about this i gotta make my voice heard you know be angry then you gotta take action, what am I going to do today? I got to do something about this. I got to make my voice heard. If you're angry, then you got to take action. Yeah, it's happened in other countries before. I mean, there's a lot of people out there.

Everyone needs to get involved. People are doing it. That's the good news. They're doing it. And so this number of signups at the organizations that are trying to do good is off the charts right now. And you need to be one of those people. So find your groove, whatever that is, whether it's one of the organizations that are trying to do good is off the charts right now. And you need to be one of those people. So find your groove, whatever that is, whether it's one of the organizations we talked about,

whether it's something completely different, whether it's volunteering at a shelter, whether it's helping animals, whether it's, you know, working with the homeless, whether it's, you know, there's going to be more and more of that, right? So we need more and more people to help until we can get this ship righted. And you're one of them. Whoever you are out there, you have the power to make a difference.

You're listening to the show, so you obviously want to make a difference. Because otherwise, why would anybody be listening to your show? Nobody listens to this show that's lazy. People are finding their groove, right? They want to find their groove. So if I could leave you with one thought,

that's it. Get mad, get up up and get after it. And let's, let's, let's, let's do this together. Let's, let's make a difference. I love it. Okay. A couple of final questions. Um, if this was your last day, many years from now, many years from now, you've done, you've done everything you've wanted to do. You've changed systems, you've saved lives, you've gotten people out of prison, you've done all these things you want to do. You've changed systems. You've saved lives. You've gotten people out of prison. You've done all these things you want to do. And you're in your last night of sleep,

and then you're not going to wake up again, right? And all your friends and family are there, and they say, you know, if you could share three lessons, three truths of all the things that you know to be true, of all the experiences you've had in the music world and the criminal justice world and everything else you've done, if it boils down to three truths, what would you write down on a piece of paper and give to us as kind of these lessons that we should live by, these principles?

Well, one, I would say, is the one I got from my dad, which is to do whatever you want to do, try to be the best at it, but make the world a better place. And with that part underlined, make the world a better place. I call it selfish altruism you know i have derived more satisfaction from helping even one person take any one of the cases i've worked on um and getting one person out of prison who doesn't belong there than from all of the um you know great experiences i've had in the music business um so that's probably number one number two would be um i have this different take on the old expression preparation plus skill equals luck. My version is preparation plus skill plus perseverance equals luck. So I would say that's a lesson that I've learned that I would want to share because I think that – and we talked about this a little bit.

The greatest ideas in history, almost all of them were rejected. And most of the people who came up with them were told that they were insane and should go do something else, right? Whether it's the Wright brothers or, you know, whoever. You know, it's easy to find out, right? I mean, Fred Astaire was told that he couldn't, you know, what was it?

Can't sing, can't dance, can act a little, right? Yeah, yeah. The agent told him. So from the greatest inventions, I'm sure the guy who came up with the wheel, they were like, yeah. The agent told him. Sure. So from the greatest inventions, I'm sure the guy who came up with the wheel, they were like, yo, Ugg, you're stupid. You don't need wheels.

We're good. Get him out of here. He should have trademarked it. Anyway, so that would be number two. And number three would probably be maybe the first thing that comes to mind, and you didn't warn me you were going to ask me this question, so this is off the top.

But I would say, and this is something I learned from reading you, which is my interpretation of one of the messages that you put out there, which is fake it till you make it. And what I mean by that is if you get an opportunity, and Richard Branson talks about this too right if you get in one of my great heroes so if you if you get an opportunity and it looks like it's something that's you know too big for you to handle too too out of your skill set take it figure it out yeah you can you know i did you know and you

did and so i mean you've done it several times so um yeah i would say that's uh those are probably the those are the three that you know uh come to mind now spontaneously yeah i love it well i want to acknowledge you for a moment jason for your incredible caring ability and not many people you know who are at the level of success you've achieved in your industry the top of your game there, are committed to taking time out to help one individual at a time to save their lives. And I think it's unbelievable the amount of commitment and dedication you've had over the last 25 years in what you're doing to make an impact and what you're doing to make a change.

And you've done it on the ground, helping individuals one by one to being on the board of however many foundations you're on the board of to now running your own podcast, which I want everyone to go listen to, Wrongful Conviction, to bring the awareness even more to people. And I want to acknowledge you for caring,

even at the level that you're at, that you still want to give and serve and support people. And it really matters when you're making a huge impact in the world. So I acknowledge you for that incredible gift. Well, thank you. That means a lot coming from you.

And I do it, it just seems second nature. And as I said, I feel extremely lucky, even blessed to have found a cause that speaks so deeply and clearly to me. And to be able to be found a cause that speaks so deeply and clearly to me. And to be able to be in a position to, you know, help is a gift. And I think to varying degrees, everybody is. You know, even if it's just a random act of kindness to a stranger, whatever, you know, walking down the street.

I mean, walking, walking you know an old lady club whatever it might be you know like you have the power to do that today so and you know and i recommend it because it makes you know it feels good right it's good to do that's that selfish altruism thing exactly i like it um before i ask the final question what uh where should we connect with you personally do you have your own website or just go to the the podcast

follow you on social media where do you like to hang out yeah actually I'm glad you asked I take my Instagramming very seriously I just started following yeah so we'll be watching

everything now so my Instagram is at it's Jason Flom it's I-T-S Jason Flom I will make you hopefully I'll make you laugh and cry and think

and you know my one of my other passions these days is saving the rhinos and so um you'll see some fantastic rhino pictures and videos as well they're my favorite animals and they're you know on the verge of extinction which makes me sad and insane so um so yeah so there's that and also you know I have a clothing line called Christian Benner um that I work with which is uh an exciting thing it's christianbenner.com or at christian benner on uh on instagram so um but yeah instagram is is my jam cool um and uh please uh follow me and and you know you'll you'll get some hopefully you'll get some inspiration from that. And it's podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, all those places, right? Yeah.

The podcast is everywhere. It's easy to find. And as I said, Spotify and Google. And so, and I think it's, you'll. If you like this conversation, you'll love more of it. So it's, it gets into really amazing detail. And, um, you know, these are all I'm really doing is providing a platform for these incredible people to tell their stories. And it's, you know, it's a, it's a, I don't know if I could

call it a thrill, but it's a, it's an honor for me to be able to work with them and to help them and, and to get that, those stories out there so that people hopefully will, you know, be, be more aware. And when they're serving on juries, there'll be more, there'll be less likely to just believe what they're being told by a government official of whether it's a prosecutor or a policeman or a forensic somebody because they've heard the podcast and they're like, well, wait a minute. I know that this isn't always true. Like, you know, like let me just take a more skeptical, more informed view and not, you know, and not just accept it because there's a lot of factors that go into these wrongful convictions and you learn about them on the show.

Very cool. Final question is what's your definition of greatness? Wow. What's my definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is, I don't know, I think greatness is something that can be achieved on a global scale or can be achieved on a very minute scale or microcosmic scale. I think greatness can be found anytime you get into the zone. And what I mean by that is like anybody who's doing

their thing and and doing it in a way where they're very present and they're focused and they're positive um you know i mean it's great you know i love i love being on your show because i always like to be around people who are sort of tapped into something, whether intellectually or spiritually or metaphysically or motivationally. And so that feeling that everybody has occasionally of not having your mind be somewhere else other than where you are, the thing that Eckhart Tolle talks about.

Power of now. The power of now, yeah. I think that's greatness. I think any time you can achieve that by doing something positive, if robbing a bank's your thing, that gets you to that place of being president, then I'm not going to sign off on that. But anything you can do, whether it's, you know, if it's surfing,

if it's a sport or if it's an act of kindness or if it's surfing if it's you know if it's uh you know a sport or if it's a if it's an act of kindness or if it's volunteering or if it's being on a you know in a great conversation like this one i think that's that's greatness you know and uh and and the more you can you know i i believe that the quality of life is proportionate to the amount of time you can spend being present and how present you can be when you are and so if you can find what gets you there, and it's something that's in some people, it's meditation or mountain climbing or whatever it is. Extreme danger always does it, right? But you can only spend so much time in extreme danger like swimming with sharks or something like that. But you could always, I'm sure if you had a mountain lion chasing after you, you'd probably be really focused.

There's a whole amount of time you can spend doing that too so whatever it is that you can find if it's reading get into that try to spend a little more of your time than you're doing now doing that that that'll be find your greatness that way and then hopefully that can flow outward and you can you know like you know have an effect on other people because you're more in your own zone which to me is it's probably an odd definition of greatness but that's mine i love it well make sure you guys check out wrongful convictions jason flom thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, Lewis. Appreciate it. And there you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this one.

If you did, a couple things of my request. One, share this with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 458. Tweet it out. Post it on Instagram. Share it on Facebook. And tag me and at Jason Flom and let us know what you thought about this. Also, the full show notes where you can connect with Jason, learn about his podcast because it's incredible. Go listen to it and download it.

You're going to be so inspired about what he's doing over there with the wrongfully convicted. So make sure to check all the stuff he is out and send him some love of what you thought about this interview and what you learned the most. Also, if you've not left a review yet, make sure to leave a review over on iTunes and potentially be one of the reviewers of the week. We'll see. Every single week, we give a shout out to those who have the best reviews. And thanks to everyone who left reviews this last week. We all have incredible gifts in this world. And it's our job and responsibility to figure out what they are and make the most of them. I'm so glad we're able to have Jason on because he's making the most of

his gifts and he continues to inspire me and so many other people. I hope you guys enjoyed this one and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.