The School of Greatness - 46 Christian Howes: What 4 Years in Prison Taught Me About The Human Spirit

Episode Date: January 3, 2014

Christian Howes spent 4 years in prison. When he got out he was a loaded spring destined for great things. Now he is the worlds greatest jazz violinist with multiple businesses that empower musicians everywhere. In this podcast we learn about the tragic story of his time in prison. This is the first of a two part series, in the next episode we learn about how he came out of prison and made his vision a reality.

This is episode number 46 with violinist extraordinaire Christian Howes. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Hey, what is up, greats?

Thanks so much for tuning in today. And we have a very special guest on today's episode. And I know I say that about every guest, but this one truly is someone that is very close to my heart. It's my big brother, Christian Howes, who I like to call Chris and all his friends call Chris. But I'm very excited about this episode because it's about a journey that he went through in prison, coming from being one of the most talented violinists in the world, going to prison in his journey through prison for four years,

and then life after prison, becoming arguably the number one jazz violinist in the world, one of the most creative strings players that the world has ever seen. And the transformation that he's had since before prison, during prison, and after prison, what it's meant, what it's done to him, and what he's created from this experience. I'm very excited to share with you this. And I got to sit down with him during Christmas in Ohio, in Columbus, Ohio, where I'm from and where he lives. So this interview is coming from his recording studio. But I'm currently, a couple of days after the interview, came to New York City to fulfill one of my dreams, which was to play in the Big Apple New York City handball tournament.

And it's not just any tournament. It's a very special handball tournament because there is an all-star game that happens at the very end. And they bring together some of the best players from all over the world, Olympic gold medalists, European champions, et cetera, et cetera, of the best handball players, some of them currently playing, and then a lot of them who are retired. So it'd be like playing against Michael Jordan or Larry Bird in an all-star game, but in handball. That's what it was about. And I just have to say that it's been an amazing journey so far. For those that know about my journey and the goals to play in the Olympics and play for Team USA in the Olympics for Team Handball,

and I started this sport a few years ago, moved to New York City on a dream that I wanted to make the USA national team and had no clue what I was getting myself into and how much work and dedication that I wanted to make the USA national team and had no clue what I was getting myself into and how much work and dedication that I needed to have in order to give myself a chance. And it was just an amazing experience. The arena was packed. What happened is New York City team played for 15 minutes and then the USA team played for 15 minutes, and we did that off and on two different times. had the most amazing moments, flashes from my experience of just being on this court and experiencing what it's like to be one step closer to achieving my dream and really just getting the opportunity to feel it and really just be in the moment and enjoy the moment and not be attached to how it looked. I messed, I messed up a couple times,

but I also feel like I did extremely well under the circumstances and scored a few goals and just had a great flow with my teammates. And I'm just extremely blessed and grateful for the opportunity to play with the team and the experience. Wow, an amazing experience. And I cannot wait for what is up this year with my handball experience with USA National Team and our Olympic dreams and goals within the next couple of years.

So I just wanted to share that little personal story with you guys really quick before we get into this episode. And with that, guys, very excited about this episode. It's going to be like a jazz piece. This episode is probably different than any other episode that you're going to experience. And there's going to be two parts. So the first hour interview is really my brother Christian's experience going to prison, what it was like in prison, what he had to deal with, the fears, the pains, the guilt, all the different experiences, and some really heavy, deep stories that he shares about what it was like in prison for four years locked up.

It was a very intense time for my family, my siblings, and my parents, as I remember visiting him almost every weekend, driving two and a half hours to see him and hearing the stories when I was eight years old until I was 12 years old while he was in prison and what it was like. It was definitely an interesting experience to say the least. So this interview is like listening to jazz. So if you've ever seen a jazz performance, there's lots of improvisation. And sometimes people really enjoy it. It's like an acquired taste. So I hope you guys enjoy this acquired taste for what you're about to hear. Obviously,

the stories and experiences are unique and different than what you've heard from most of my guests, but I think it's extremely powerful as well what he experienced and what you can take away with it for your own life experience, for your own business, relationships, and things like that. It's very interesting to me. That's why I'm honored and grateful and blessed that he was willing to come on School of Greatness and share with all of you greats what it was like in his experience. And he doesn't really publicly talk about this that much. So I'm very, again, honored and blessed that he came on and shared it with me and all of you. So the first episode is going to be what it was like during prison. And then

the next episode is going to be more about what it's been like after prison and how he's applied the lessons he learned in prison to being successful in his career, coming from a nobody, you know, a convict to basically taking over the world, the jazz world as a violinist and what he's been able to create as a producer, as an artist, as a professor at the number one music school in the country and all these other things that he's been able to accomplish since applying these lessons from prison to a life after prison. So take a look at both episodes and let me know what you think over at the comments section on the blog over at lewishouse.com or schoolofgreatness.com.

But with that guys, open up your heart and listen in for the one and only Christian House. All right, what is up, everyone? Lewis Howes here back on The School of Greatness. Thanks so much for tuning back in. And I've got a very special guest on today. It's my hero, my big brother, Christian Howes, who I call Chris, but stage name is Christian. And we are in the dungeon, his recording studio at his house in Columbus, Ohio. And it's a late night.

It's about 1.16 a.m. right now, a couple days after Christmas. And I'm very excited about this episode. What's up, brother? Yo, bro. You're my hero. What can I say? Yeah, I'm very excited about this episode. What's up, brother? Yo, bro. You're my hero. What can I say? Yeah. I'm excited.

So I told my brother beforehand that we get to get real here and get deep about some things that have happened. And so I'm excited about this. If you guys don't know who my brother is, he's arguably the best jazz violinist in the world one of one of the best arguably the best depending on who you're talking to but he he has a very unique style very unique playing style that i don't know of anyone else who can play the same style so it's very interesting very unique beautiful mesmerizing uh magnetic all those things and he's one of the best performers that I've ever witnessed, especially in the whole jazz, rock, bluegrass arena.

So if you ever get a chance to watch him play live, make sure to stop everything you're doing and go watch him live. So he has a very unique story, very interesting story. And when I was eight years old is when I really started to get to know my brother. And it was before that time I pretty much never saw you. You were a ghost to me. And it's because he was getting in a lot of trouble as a child. And when he was eight, he got sentenced to prison for, I think the sentence was like 25 years, six to 25 years, right?

Well, when you were eight. When I was eight. Yeah. And when I was about 19, that's when I was indicted on a drug-related charge. It was, well, it was trafficking, LSD trafficking. And essentially I was, you know, a kid in college who, you know, was, would buy, you know, since I played in bands in the bars, so then I had easy access to weed. And that was kind of my thing in college. I liked to smoke weed. And I guess it was kind of – I don't know.

It was a way of fitting in. It was an escape. It was all the things that it typically is, I think, for college kids. you know, all the things that, that it typically is, I think for college kids. And, um, but since I played with these older guys in the bars on Ohio state campus, then I had easy access to stuff, you know, even though I was, you know, 18. Um, and, um, so I would be able to get this like a, you know, like a, an ounce of weed. And then I could pass around quarters to, you know, friends of mine or people I knew from high school or whatever. And kind of, you know, made me feel important, made me feel like, you know, people wanted to hang out with me because, you know, Chris has the weed, blah, blah, blah, you know. And so then when someone

came down and they were like, hey, we want to get some acid. Can you get it? I was like, well, I don't know. I'll make a call. And so I called, you know, the guy that I got the weed from. And he was like, sure. How much do you need? And you're 18 at the time, right? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Let me see. I was 19 when this particular deal happened. But the guy said, well, can you get me, you know, 15 sheets of acid and i was like how much did that cost back then well well okay you can talk about the the cost of acid or lsd in different ways so like if you buy like one hit you at that time it would probably cost like three to five dollars for one hit and a hit of lsd comes on a little tiny piece of paper like a stamp it's a little smaller than it's like yeah it's it's like a quarter of a stamp yeah exactly it's

like quarter stamp so then a sheet would have a hundred of these little tiny perforated like quarter quarter stamp size like little pieces i guess and uh i guess there'd be different variations but usually when i saw a sheet, like a sheet of acid, which has 100 hits of LSD dropped onto it or whatever, because I think it came in liquid. And they'd soak the paper in the liquid, and then you'd put it in your tongue or whatever. But I think, if I remember correctly, one of those sheets that had 100 hits would be like a quarter size of an 8x11 piece of paper. Okay. Maybe there's variation, like I said. but that's kind of how I remember it. So this guy asked for it.

So anyway, the cost, you know, if you're just buying one hit, then you might pay $3 to $5 for that one hit. But if you're buying 100 hits in bulk, you could probably get it for like, you know, maybe $150 to $200. you could probably get it for like maybe $150 to $200. So some guys that I knew from my high school came down, and one of them said, this is from my uncle. My uncle, he wants this acid or whatever. He can't get it. I was like, okay, sure, whatever.

Let me make a phone call. And so I called the guy that I usually would get these ounce bags of weed from. And the whole, you know, buying an ounce of weed was basically, you know, then I'd get a quarter bag pretty much for free. And then I could sell the other three bags. And, you know, it's a very small time kind of pot, college pot dealer, you know, whatever typical kind of scenario. I've had a lot of people tell me that, you know. typical kind of scenario. I've had a lot of people tell me that, you know, but anyway, not to, not to get detoured, but so that's the cost. I called the guy, he was like, sure, come on over. So I got the money, you know, we all drove over together. I went in the house, I got the acid, you know, I think we actually broke it into two separate trips so

i went and got like eight sheets once went back a couple weeks later got another seven sheets for the guy same kind of thing so one sheet was like a couple hundred bucks yeah a sheet would be yeah exactly maybe 150 dollars something like that so i think all told so you got 15 sheets yeah all told 15 sheets and at the time, the way that they did the sentencing guidelines, the guidelines for sentencing, you know, for how much punishment,

you know, are you going to give out? They had this thing called mandatory minimums. So it would be structured. Like if you sell, you know, up to 10 hits of acid, then that would be one penalty. And then if you sell, you know, up to 10 hits of acid, then that would be one penalty. And then if you sell over 10 hits, they call that bulk.

10 hits of acid would be bulk. So that's 50 bucks maybe. You know, they call that bulk. And then three times bulk would be 30. And then 10 times bulk would be one sheet, which they defined 10 times bulk for any drug. They called that at the time super bulk. And if you were dealing super bulk of any drug, then you were considered basically a quote-unquote kingpin. No way.

No, absolutely. And so then they had these mandatory minimum sentences that they would impose for each level of these bulk trafficking. And so I guess the only place where you could argue that maybe there's an inequity or a disproportionality is when you look at the economic side. So we just talked about the cost of 100 hits of acid for $150. economic side. So we just talked about the cost of, you know, a hundred hits of acid for $150. Well, you know, super bulk cocaine, I think was probably like a kilo or so. I'm not even sure because I don't really deal with cocaine, but, um, or heroin or something like that. I think you'd be looking at a street value that would be, you know, much bigger, you know? So there's a lot of ways to look at that. I've never focused on ever, you know, and you know, you're my brother, so you can testify

to this, you know, but I've never been one to talk about, oh, I got a bad deal or it's such a bad rap. But the fact of the matter is that the, I mean, I just look, well, you know, let me just talk about that for a second. I just always looked at it like, you know, I screwed up, I made a mistake, and I did the time for it. You know, I mean, it's, you know, a lot of people say like, oh, that's a bad rap or that's so inequitable or you were a good kid or you were on a scholarship, blah, blah, blah. I don't really look at it that way. Because what was your sentence time?

Well, so for that super bulk bulk there's a mandatory minimum that they imposed of 15 to life 15 years 15 years to life to selling 15 sheets of well actually since it was two transactions one was the eight sheets and the other was the seven sheets each one of those was 15 to life so they they could- 15 years minimum. 15 years minimum with an actual incarceration, which these are all these weird legal terms, actual incarceration of 15 years. But every state measures years differently. So in Ohio, 15 years on paper actually is 10 and a half years day for day. Wow.

And so I was looking at, if I went to court and I was found guilty, which I would have been because I was guilty, then the judge would have had no choice. But to give you 15 years. But to give me 15 to life. Jeez. Not 15 years, 15 to life. It's known as an indefinite sentence. And that's part of the thing about the justice

system i think a lot of people aren't hip to basically um with a correctional system or whatever you want to call it um if you're serving an indefinite sentence then once you get into prison you know there's a lot of things that can happen that may uh you know you may have to stay longer than that minimum bit. When you're in prison, if you get into trouble or whatever happens. Yeah, exactly. Cause once you're in prison, you don't really have the same kind of due process that you have on the outside.

And you, you know, it's sort of a, like really like a kangaroo court in prison, like all kinds of crap goes down. And so, um, so it's a very vulnerable position to be in. But anyway, so I was looking at a mandatory minimum of 15 to life, which they could have run twice. But at the absolute minimum, the judge's hands would have been tied to give me 15 to life. So, what I did was I pled guilty. And that earned me a lesser sentence of six to 25 years. So that was the actual sentence that I went into prison with was six to 25 years. And in Ohio terms, six years works out to four years actual day for day.

So I knew that I was going to have to do a minimum of four years day for day, barring any kind of like pardon or clemency or something like that but that's very rare amazing and you're on you're on a full ride to a house date for your your your music talents and full academic scholarship i guess as well so they were like paying you to go to school basically based on how talented you were and you go you go in at 19 you get out at 24, right? Or 20 or 24, somewhere around there. Yeah, I was indicted when I was 19, and then it was a process of waiting for about nine months. And so I went in when I was 20. I spent my 21st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th birthdays. I did four years day for day in Ohio prisons.

What was it like when you got busted? What happened? Where were you? Do you remember knowing what was going to happen? got busted what happened where were you do you remember knowing what's going to happen or are you completely in shock well you mentioned that i was on a full scholarship at ohio state at the time but i was also on a full contract with a professional orchestra in columbus i was the youngest member you know that i know of uh still that had been hired full time, uh, with the pro music, uh, uh, chamber orchestra. It was a really highly respected, you know, ensemble. And, um, I

auditioned for the job and I got a full-time position. Um, although it has a short season, so it wasn't like I was, um, or I should say like a sparse season. I think we did maybe 10 concerts in a year. So I had that. And so I was really gigging as a professional classical musician on a very high level in Columbus already as a freshman and a sophomore in college. And then this was during my, I guess, at the end, Oh, this was in the summer between sophomore and junior years at Ohio state. Um, and I had some kind of a professional gig

scheduled at the palace theater, uh, downtown Columbus. Um, and you know, our mom called me and said, uh, Chris, you know, the police showed up at our house, and they're looking for you. And I wasn't thinking, so I told them that you were going to be at the Palace Theater performing tonight. And I was like, oh, shit. And she said, they have a warrant for your arrest. And mom was kind of clueless. She didn't really understand what was going on. And I was like, OK, thanks for letting me know.

So I didn't show up to the gig that night, you know, at the palace. I just, I called somebody said, I can't be there because I knew that they were going to, and they did, they actually showed up to try to arrest me there. So what had happened is this thing called a secret indictment. So, um, I didn't know that these guys, these guys from my high school, they said that they were bringing their uncle. The uncle was really an undercover cop. And these guys didn't know that he was an undercover cop. Really? Wow.

They didn't know that. They just didn't want me to be suspicious. So they said, this is, you know, the one guy said, this is my uncle. He just didn't want me to ask questions. But he didn't believe that this guy was a cop. Wow. But the people or another guy had actually set him up with the cop knowing because he had been busted. And so he had, it was this kind of whole trail of, you know.

So what happened is when they did the deal with me, when this undercover cop did these two deals with me, it had been nine months before. And then he just went away like, and I didn't hear anything for nine months. Actually during that nine months, believe it or not, I kind of had like made a lot of changes. Like I had kind of woken up like our, our,

our aunt Laura had come over one time and yelled at me. It was like, what are you doing with your life? You're not, you're missing classes and you're, you know, you're, you're, you over one time and yelled at me. It was like, what are you doing with your life? You're missing classes. And this apartment's a mess. And I'm hearing stories that you're not doing well at school and stuff. And she's like, you're throwing away your life. My girlfriend at the time, who you remember, Erin, Erin Gilliland, who's still a dear friend to this day.

She was beside herself and my violin teacher. The people at school, they noticed that I was slipping. And it had kind of gotten to a boiling point. And I was like, I need to clean up my act. So I was actually, I had kind of taken measures to try to. Stop that stuff. To try to, yeah. I wasn't really dealing

anymore. I had really curtailed, you know, or curbed it back or whatever, you know, as far as just like smoking all the time. And I was, I was trying to turn over a new leaf. I was trying to be a little more responsible, but during the course of those nine months, basically this, this undercover cop and this whole sting operation, they, they just looked at their encounter with me as a way to get more information. And then they went after, you know, my source and, and they just, they were, you know, after the surveillance, the surveillance that they did, they just went on to try to catch bigger fish. And I didn't really know anything about it. I was just like, and then so nine months later, you know, they're showing up at my gig at the

palace theater, trying to arrest me. They got a warrant. They had everything on tape. They had everything. So when that happened, I was totally, totally in shock. I was just like, holy shit, what's going on? Called a lawyer. The lawyer was like, okay, we're going to arrange for you to go and turn yourself in and we're going to find out what's going on.

So I had to turn myself in at the county jail and sit in a holding cell, you know, for maybe two or three hours or something like that. That was traumatic. Wow. Even just going into the station and having, I remember like there was like a cop that was like pushing me through the hallway by putting this like pen in my back. Wow. Just like push it, like, just like. Jabbing you. Just jabbing me.

And I was, I just felt like so violated by the whole thing and i got up there and i was like i want to file a complaint and they were like sure whatever just sit there and i could see how they were going to play me they were just going to make me sit there forever so i like was like you know i'm not going to even mess with it but but just that experience even just sitting in that holding cell for three hours was so depressing. I can't tell you just three hours in a holding cell and having this cop, you know, you know, and just the way they kind of treated me because they just saw me as another, another criminal, you know, um, which I was another criminal and that's what I was, you know, and, uh, but just that experience was totally, totally traumatizing of just three hours. And, um, and even, you know,

that was with me having the lawyer who could, could set it up so I could have the minimum, the minimum invasiveness. It wasn't like they just, you know, arrested me and took me in. Cause that would have, maybe I would have been there for a couple of days or whatever, but that was horrible. And then the lawyer, you know, met with somebody and he came back and he told us, you know, uh, yeah, well, it looks like this is what it is. You know, they caught you dealing drugs in and the sentence for this is, is a 15 to life. That's what it is. And I was like, I was like, sure. Yeah, whatever. But tell me, you know, tell me the catch.

I'm sure it's not going to be really like that. And he was like, well, I don't, there's nothing I can tell you. There's, there's no way around this. Wow. It is what it is. He was like, this is a mandatory minimum. I was trying to wrap my, my brain around it. Cause I just didn't think that would be possible. I figured just the way I identified myself, like, sure, I'm a rebel and I'm breaking rules and stuff, but I'm on a school scholarship and blah, blah, blah. I just didn't think it was possible that I could be in so much trouble, which is not an excuse, obviously. I mean, not knowing the law does not – it's not an excuse for breaking the law.

Wow. So, what was the biggest lesson that you had up until you got sentenced? Hmm. The biggest lesson up until you got sentenced? Hmm. The biggest lesson up until I got sentenced. Yeah. From like, Oh, you mean when I was sitting there?

Cause then I had to sit around for another nine months and wait for them to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was, that was really traumatic.

You know, basically after I got out of the County and then the lawyer said, well, we're going to, it's going to take time until you get your final sentence. And I don't know what I can do. It was just waiting and not knowing. And, and, you know, really I was thinking in the beginning, like, well, surely something's going to happen. I, you know, I can't believe it's going to be that bad. There's gotta be a way around it. And the more we talked to the lawyer, the more he

kept saying, well, I just don't know. I'm going to try to meet with him. We'll see. I kept thinking, well, hopefully it'll be okay. He's going to try to meet with him. We'll see. I kept thinking, well, hopefully it'll be okay. We're going to work something out. And finally, maybe like a month before the sentencing was going to happen, he said he had a meeting with the cops and the judges and the prosecutors or whoever about the plea deal. And he was like, this is what it is. It's going to be. Wow. Four years, basically.

Yeah. He was like, it's going to be gonna be uh wow four years basically yeah he was like it's gonna be six to twenty five minimum four years and that day i went and shaved my head i cut all my hair off i don't know why it was just the thing that i did i like because i had long hair and i oh i think it was because i thought i don't know i thought like oh if i go to prison they're gonna make me cut my hair so i'm gonna cut it right they don't i don't know. I thought like, oh, if I go to prison, they're going to make me cut my hair. So I'm going to cut it. Right. So they don't cut. I don't know. It was some stupid like. But I remember that going and getting my hair cut off and just feeling completely devastated, feeling numb.

You know, pretty much from my junior year in college, the whole time I was waiting, I just kind of like, I kind of checked out. Honestly, I didn't show up to a lot of classes. I just, I mean, I just was like really kind of depressive. Wow. Just kind of checked out. Honestly, I didn't show up to a lot of classes. I was just, I mean, I just was like really kind of depressive, just kind of checked out. So what was it like the first week in prison? So the first thing that happens is they, they send you to the County jail and the County jail is actually maybe the worst place. Uh, so you're, so I was in County jail for about two weeks. When you're in the County jail, you've got maybe, you know, maybe there's 10 people in a cell, you know, with bunk beds. And the food is unbelievably bad.

And it's so bad. It's like all slopped together. And it's just like you just can't even eat it. You don't even want to eat it. Like you barely eat any of it. I lost a lot of weight in the county jail. And then you've got these different characters in there. Now, I was in there with my two co-defendants, you know, any of it. I lost a lot of weight in the county jail. And then you got these different characters in there. Now, I was in there with my two co-defendants, you know, the two guys that were – and one of them just sat in the car the whole time.

He never touched money. He never touched dope. But he did – he got the same sentence as me and my other co-defendant. And so, the three of us were there. So, there was a little bit of security from having, you know having two people that I knew in there. But at the same time, it was scary. It was depressing. But it was also, in a way, I hate to use the term.

I can't think of a better way to describe it. It was a little bit exciting. It was like, oh, I'm going to check this out. And my friends outside are going to want to know what's it like. And I can let them know. And it's, you know, I mean, I felt this. I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it. But I felt a little bit of like, you know, oh, people are going to think I'm like, you know, whatever, tough or, you know.

Or I don't know. That sounds ridiculous. But there was an element of that. You know, just like, you know, I'm going to check this out. This is completely different. It's an adventure. You know, just like, you know, I'm going to check this out. This is completely different.

It's an adventure. But that was mitigated by, you know, just the reality of, you know, having these scary people around, just being inherently very vulnerable in a cell with 10 people, you know, not knowing really the rules of all the shit that's coming at you all the time and just adjusting to the new, uh, I mean, that took up energy and it kind of helped the days pass. Cause I was just learning new systems and learning the ropes of what, how this goes and how this goes and sort of getting information, but it sucked. And so after about 10 days, then I got shipped out to, um, the, then i got shipped out to um the the next phase which is the reception uh they call it reception or orientation and um at orientation that's kind of when it's like this kind of boot camp vibe so you get there and they make you strip and they make you bend over and they talk shit to you they go through all your stuff they They like kick it around. Oh yeah.

Like they totally, you know, they got like haze you basically. Yeah. Basically the cops, like you get there in reception. They're like, this is reception.

You know, this is what's, you're not going to mess around with us. This is how we're going to treat you. This is how it's going to be. You're a number. Don't try to act like you're special. Yeah, exactly.

You're a number, you know, bend over, you know, um, you can't have that anymore we're taking all your shit those pictures of your family yeah whatever you're not gonna see though you know just i mean just like you know here dressing this jumpsuit this is what you're gonna wear from now on you'll give us all your clothes give us all your whatever and uh so you

kind of go through that for a couple hours or whatever. You know, they make you sit around. And then they put you in a cell, solitary confinement. And so in reception, basically, I was in solitary confinement for, I don't know, another two weeks. By yourself in a cell. Yeah, solitary in a cell. And then except for meals, they would get you out of the cell. You'd stand in a line outside for what seemed like a long time. And then they would march you into the cafeteria. And then you would be waiting in a line for a long time.

And then you get your food and they give you like five minutes to eat it. And I remember like literally like just scarfing down to try to get all the food in. And then they'd march, then be like, you got to go. They get you back in the line. You'd stand there for an uncomfortably long time again. And then they march you back to your solitary confinement. And so when I was in there, I can't remember even if I had a book, honestly. I just don't remember. There was at least like a week when I don't think I had like a book or anything, just sitting there. You and your thoughts.

Yeah, totally. And then those brief moments where you're just like standing in line and then, you know, rushing to eat. Like really rushing. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. Like you did not physically have enough time to eat your food, like really rushing. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. It's like you did not physically have enough time to eat the food. But you just would – obviously, you'd want to eat it. Show as much as we can. Yeah.

And the food was better there than it had been in the county. I lost a lot of weight anyway. So I think after maybe a week in reception, in solitary, I got moved to another pod within like another dorm within solitary. And then I had a cellmate there. And he was this older cat that had been in and out. And I think, you know, on different types of like burglaries or bank robberies or something like that. And he kind of schooled me.

And, you know, I remember having conversations with him. I was able to have some books, I remember, in that cell. I was able to have some books, I remember, in that cell. And I think maybe we had like an hour of recreation every day like in this like little indoor, you know, dorm room or whatever. Just enough to like get into a little bit of trouble or be threatened by a few people. And then they shipped me out from there to what was known as your parent institution, like the place that I was actually going to go to, the joint, the penitentiary, prison. And in my case, that was the Ross County Correctional Institution. It was a pretty new prison. So it was clean.

They had new facilities um and they had two two people to a cell um so i moved there um you had a cellmate right away i had a cellmate cellmate right away and i was kind of thrown into like the regular schedule, the routine of that prison. And so, and the routine of the prison is like you get up in the morning at like seven for breakfast. They like click the doors and the doors are unlocked. So, you can go out. You can go out. You can go around like in the pod or whatever.

And then, or maybe you can go out on the track. And then you can go, or you can go to breakfast. You come back at nine. You probably have to be counted again for like a half hour. Then you can go to work like at 930 or whatever. Come back like at 1130, get locked down again, get counted, then go to lunch. Maybe come back, get counted again, then go back to work and come back again at like four, get counted, be locked down.

Then you have a few hours at night or after dinner, you have a few hours where you can either hang out inside or maybe outside until it's dark. And then you get counted again and you're locked up for the night. And that's, you know, that's the routine. It's every day. It's every day. And you've got, everybody's supposed to have a job in, in prison. You've got to have a job. Um, so the first job I think I had was in the commissary and, uh, the commissary is

just the store. So every prisoner has like, um, um, they have money on their books, even if they don't have any family sending them money, then the state gives them like, I think it was like 12 or $20 a month that you could spend in the commissary to get whatever, you know, cigarettes, coffee,

you know, maybe some clothes, maybe, you know, canned goods, you know, potato chips, you know,

just, just candy or whatever. Yeah. And you could, you could order stuff like, just, um, just candy or whatever. Yeah. And you could, you could order stuff like, I think back then cassette players or, you know, a few things like that. But once a week you could go to the commissary and you could spend up to a certain amount. Maybe it was $25 every week. If you had that money in your account, because when I first got there, it took a while for me to get any money on my account. And I was pretty much relying on mom and dad, you know, whether they were going to send me money. Which a lot of times, even if they wanted to send me money, they might have felt conflicted about it. Because, you know, they probably were told, like, well, don't send him too much money.

Because then he'll be more vulnerable if he's getting a lot of money, you know. Because if people think, you know, you're getting a lot of money, they're going to, they're going to, you know, target you. Sure. Yeah. So I remember one of the first things that happened to me in Ross though, uh, was that, um, some guy came up and he was like, Hey, you want to go play? Let's play some cards, you know, and he kind of, you know, acted friendly with me or whatever. And then, um, so we went to play cards And I had no idea what this card game was.

It was called Tonk. I don't know if you ever heard of it. It's kind of like a street game or whatever. It's called Tonk or something like that. They would play these, like, a few card games. Just really simple. You know, kind of like Blackjack or something like that. It's just, like, two cards and you're just betting on the cards, you know?

It's just, like, who's got a higher card, you know? Right. And it's just a gambling thing. And I had no idea how to play this game. But I got in it however, and I ended up losing like, yeah, $45. Wow. And the most that you could spend in the commissary was $50. And he was like, that's all right.

So here's, you owe me $45. And so usually guys would either do um cigarettes as currency so you have to pay me on wednesday when you go to the commissary and cigarettes or i'll give you a list of all the stuff i wanted to the commissary so uh so then uh so then it was gonna be like two weeks until i could actually go to the store. Cause I didn't have any money yet. You know, it was like the first day or something, you know? And, um, and so finally, when I went to go to the store, I, I went, I walked up to the dude and I was like, yo, so give me, you know, give me your list, you know, cause I'm going to the store to give me your list.

He was like, bet, you know, and he came back and it was this big list. It was like four cans of Tudor, three packs of cigarettes, two bags of coffee, eight bags of chips, a thing of toothpaste, you know, like it was like the, it was like a long list of all this stuff. And it added up to $45, but it was, it was like his shopping list. And that's what I owed him. I was like, all right, cool. Got it. So I went to the commissary. We didn't lie in a long time ago.

The commissary went in and I spent all my money just to pay this debt. And I came back and I got back in my cell. And so this dude comes up to the cell and he knocks. He's like, yo, what's up? And I was like, wait a second. He looks just like the other guy, but it's a different guy. No way.

No, I swear to you. So was it twins or what? It wasn't twins, but it was like, I think the first dude, like I hadn't even seen him in those two weeks. And I saw this other guy.

I just thought it was him. And I was like, yo, I'm going to the store. And the guy was like, okay, you know, in fact, as soon as I got back from the store and i remember the guy that had given me the list he came and he got all his shit and then like two minutes later the real guy oh

man came and knocked on my door and i was like wait a second i just gave all this stuff i thought that he was you and he just and he was like nope he was like nope that's not me and you owe me my shit it was deep man it was it was so what happened that's the shit that happened it was like it sounds like you couldn't make that shit up but that really happened and uh so that was the beginning of my of my journey the first week at ross yeah. But then the thing was, the reason I got sent to Ross Correctional in the first place, because my other two co-defendants, they got sent to this other prison, was because I knew a professional musician named Jeff McCargish. And he had done work in the prisons, going in, working with musicians in the prisons. the prisons, like going in, like, like working with musicians in the prisons. And he knew this warden that had, was really a proactive warden who had accessed these grants from the state to create this vocational music program.

And they called it the warden's band. His name is Ron, Ron Edwards. And he was this young guy who was, you know, liberal, liberal minded and, uh, and he loved music. And so he wanted to have a program where guys in the prison could like play music and get rehabilitated and develop, uh, vocational skills so that when they got out, they might be able to work in the music world. And I think in a way for Ron, it was like him vicariously living out his music dream in a way. It was like him vicariously living out his music dream in a way.

And he would buy all this gear. And with his state money, he got a nice drum set. He got a nice keyboard, state of the art keyboard with sequencers and risers and bass guitars and amps and electric guitars, amps, microphones, PA system, like everything, the whole nine yards. And then he bought a MIDI electric violin for me. Wow. I think it cost like four grand. Wow. And he dealt with our, you know, the violin shop that we knew from the time I was growing up.

And they helped, you know, say, yeah, this is what you need. And, you know, they brought it to me and everything. But he actually, you know, he really went to bat for me. He brought me to that prison. He handpicked me out of the county jail because Jeff went to him and said, I know this kid. He's a great musician. You need to bring him to your thing.

And so he brought me. And that became my job, playing with the warden's band. Wow, that's pretty nice. It was nice. It was nice. It was nice. Well, it was nice in a lot of ways. It was a great experience in a lot of ways. At the same time, I was also going to college. So that became, like, really, college was my job, but I was also doing the Wardens Band.

Because they had Pell Grants at the time, so I could go and I could take classes from real professors. Down there, they were coming from Ohio University, but they were the same professors teaching the same classes for the same credits. Wow. But it was with all these convicts in the classes. And a lot of these guys maybe had a high school, not even a high school, but they got their GED and then they would go to school and they were older and maybe less educated, but they were, they were invested. They wanted to learn.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of time they really did. And it was really kind of deep and, you know, to see, you know, these guys, these convicts, you know, they come from super poor backgrounds, maybe had this, all this violence in their lives, maybe grew up in group homes and orphanages and had just all kinds of who knows what kind of drama that went down in their lives and their families. And that they, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to study psychology, philosophy, literature, history. I took a bunch of great, and for me too, it was completely different. Like I had been in college on the outside at Ohio State University pursuing a music degree, but I couldn't pursue music classes there. They didn't offer that. So I was just taking whatever I was interested in learning about, which was humanities. It was psychology, philosophy, literature, history,

art history. I took a lot of great courses, and I was really into it. You know, it was like, I was like, I got to make the most of this time. I'm going to get in. This is something I can get. It was like a temple. You know, going to college, it was like a refuge. I mean, it was a safe place with a professor speaking my language. Like, I was a smart kid, you professor speaking my language like i was a smart kid you know with like good grades and i never tried in school but now i was like man i'm

into this you know this is like uh liberal arts education you know and um and i you know and i met there was a one person um who i met in particular who was really academically gifted, really smart guy. I don't, you know, just to protect him, I don't want to say his name, but he became a, like, kind of like a big brother to me. And he was older than me and he was all about, like, trying to make the most of his time, being disciplined in jail physically, mentally, and also interpersonally. He was trying to steer me away from, like, don't mess around with all this dumb shit. Don't get involved in gambling.

He had a good head on his shoulders, and he was serving a longer sentence. But he helped steer me. I remember sometimes in the morning I would go to his cell just to get ready for breakfast before they would call us for breakfast. And he would always have the Today Show on. And it was not Brian Gumbel, but what's his brother? Anyway, I would just marvel at how articulate the hosts on the Today Show were. And he would be like, man,

he was so articulate. It's just like, that's why we got to study like the books and like, just to be that articulate, like that's so slick. And I was, and I was, I was excited about shit like that.

Like I wanted to, I wanted to improve my mind. But anyway, I, I started rambling a little bit about, about it, but, but I was,

I was in the warden's band and I was in college and yes, the warden's band was amazing, but it was also problematic in various ways. Like there was, there's a lot of different, you know, stories I could tell about that. Um, I mean, that's, you know, basically the warden's band was, wardens band was predominantly African-Americans. And there was one other white guy who had been in the band, but in a way, he was getting ready to leave. So in a way, I was like the token white guy in the band. Or you could argue, or maybe some people might have thought I was the token white guy in the band. white guy in the band. But obviously, I was young and from a middle-class family, well-educated, had been taking violin lessons my whole life. These guys came from a completely different background. So obviously, in some ways, they looked at me like I was green and young and

dumb and stupid and whatever. But in other ways, I think they resented me. Some of them, not all of them, but some of these guys resented me. There was an older guy in the band who had been down for a long time, some violent crimes. And in particular, he didn't like me. I think he had an issue with, you know, he had an issue with me cause I was white. Cause I was, you know, he thought I was, uh, had been pampered, whatever. And, uh, he was older. He had grown up in the South, you know, in a different time, you know, he had a lot of, um, he had a lot of, uh, he had a lot of anger. Um, he had a lot of violence in his history.

he had a lot of anger. He had a lot of violence in his history. And so there were, there were those kinds of tensions, you know, and, and I was in a band where on one hand, like I was sort of the expert musician, right.

Where I knew all this stuff, like music theory and all this training on the violin, my whole life. But I didn't know anything about like black music, like African-American music. And that's what we were doing. We were playing like, okay, we played George Clinton, Mary J. Blige, MC, was it Hammer? MC Hammer, Bobby Brown, Prince, a bunch of tunes all in that vein.

That was our bag. That was what we did. And they would sequence the tunes just like they were and would perform just like they were on the record. And they would try to find a way to fit me in. I had this MIDI violin, so I could play different sounds, whether like a flute sound or like a trumpet sound or just play like a regular violin sound.

But they didn't want me to just, they just wanted it to sound like the tune. So they would have me like hitting a cowbell i'd be like hitting a cowbell and like doing like a two-step and like singing some background vocals which were which i was horrible at and they would occasionally let me play a couple notes like i swear to you man it was like it was so humiliating and i would sit through the rehearsals, but then the way they would conduct rehearsals was like a bad garage band because they weren't –

I used to be in a professional orchestra. It's like if you're on a professional football team, which you were on professional football teams. Then you go play flag football or something. And then you go play with just some dudes in the backyard you know and they're and they're like you know and all the personalities and the drama and the egos and all this stuff so you can imagine the same thing like in this in this band so now there were some perks though because you got to go play outside of the prison cell right or the prison grounds because i

remember watching you like once every few months we'd drive a few hours away and go watch you play on a stage in like a park or something a lot of perks yeah and i always remember like you play an electric slide that's like what i remember i always remember that and it was me and mom and dad and like cat or someone. And then it was all the prison, the inmates' families were there. And so we were like the only white people in the middle of this park in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. And playing all these songs and the electric slide. And everyone would start dancing during the electric slide. That's what I remember about it.

That's so hilarious. Yeah, because you were nine. Yeah. And yeah, there were perks because the warden, like I said, he was really kind of liberal and activist or proactive, I guess.

So he would take us out to do community service. Like we would go to the parks and we played at a semi-pro baseball game. We would go to other prisons and we'd perform. And this was a big deal to leave the prison.

I mean, nobody leaves the prison when you're in prison. Nobody. But we were like the fucking Blues Brothers. I mean, like seriously. Like we were going to other prisons and we were doing shows. We would do shows at Ross at the prison we were at for special events. And so. That's kind of cool.

It was. It was really cool. You know, it was, we had a level of privilege that nobody else in the prison had. But with that also came, you know, some resentment. Serious resentment. Serious resentment. And you were a new kid on the block and people were like, why can't we go and do this? And what gives you the right? Yeah, absolutely.

I can join this band and play this cowbell as good as you yeah and it was even deeper than that because um there was all this political behind the scenes drama that i wasn't even really privy to um i mean you can imagine or if you don't know like a lot of the prisons are in these like rural towns. So you've got rural white people that are working at the prison as guards and it's a state job. And those state jobs are really highly prized. You know, they have good benefits. They pay money, they pay seniority. A lot of times, you know, these people can get their friends in or their relatives in and that sort of thing. And so there's like a union of the guards. And a lot of times, you know, these people can get their friends in or their relatives in and that sort of thing.

And so there's like a union of the guards. And a lot of times it's in these rural towns. You get these racial political dynamics going on. I mean, the warden in this prison, you know, happened to be a young African-American. african-american and then on top of that he's he's trying to he he's um he believes in the rehabilitation side of rehabilitation and corrections and he's got this band playing the electric slide and jodeci and keith sweat and and so a lot of the guards did not like that you know a lot of these uh the white rural guards really resented they didn't like the fact that he was taking us out that we were going out and playing they thought

that's you know that's not what a prison's about um i remember i remember specifically one of the gigs on a park at the end of it i believe if i don't that you guys like got to go swimming too i remember there was like a pool in the park and I remember you guys all like jumping a fence or like going into this pool and the warden was like, go do your thing for 10 minutes or something and you know, or whatever. And I was like, whoa, that's pretty privileged. Yeah. It was, it was, I don't know if you remember that the warden gave us a lot of trust.

That's amazing. It was really amazing. I mean, there, you know, um, he, he trusted us and, and, you know, we. the the warden gave us a lot of trust that's amazing it was really amazing i mean there you know um he he trusted us and and you know we you know from speaking for myself and i think for all the guys i think we we were so grateful to him that if for no other reason i mean because i because i could have left like maybe maybe i could have got got away if I was on a trip in a park or something. Right, right. They'd catch you eventually.

Maybe they would. But, I mean, I wouldn't have just because this guy had – he had stuck his neck out so far. You know, he trusted us so much and he was giving us such an opportunity. You know, so I'll always be grateful to Ron Edwards, you know, for that. Um, you know, so I'll always be grateful to Ron Edwards, you know, for, for that. But, um, so this political drama, it all, it led up to after I had been locked up for two years, there were, there were a couple of things that had happened where I felt like the guards were kind of trying to get me tripped up in trouble for stuff that didn't happen or whatever.

Like one time I ended up going to solitary confinement for two weeks because they said I had inappropriate affection with my girlfriend during a visit. You're allowed to have a visit like once or twice a month from, you know, your family or your girlfriend or whatever. So my girlfriend was out of state a lot of the time because she was working on her master's degree, but she came in, you know, once a month or once every other month. So she would come in and you could have like a three hour, like sit down and you're allowed to like kiss once at the beginning, a hug once a year, and then you can sit and hold hands, but you know, you can't do anything else or whatever. And at the end you can have, so they would have like these guards looking behind like one way mirrors and stuff, checking on people. And if you displayed inappropriate affection, then you could get in trouble.

Well, to the best of my memory, we didn't do anything. But they came out and got me. They said, that's it. Inappropriate affection. You're going to the hole. And they put me in the hole for two weeks because they said that. Oh, and the funny thing was they even pointed to the thing on my neck, which is, you know, it looks. Like a mark or something?

It's from playing the violin. Oh, wow. Like a little red mark. It's a little red mark on my neck, yeah. And they were like, oh, that's, you know, that's evidence of you. But it doesn't matter, like I said, once you're. It doesn't matter what you say or anything. Yeah, it's like they just said, we saw you at an approach. So I was convinced some things that happened like that

were that the guards were trying to create problems for the warden, for the warden's band, for polygamy. So then like one of those times we went out to the park to play like you were talking about, mom came and she took pictures and then she sent me the pictures later because the warden's family had come too. So she sent me the pictures later because the warden's family had come too. So she sent me the pictures.

And, you know, mom, you know, was always calling the warden to check and see, like, how is he doing? And what can we do? You know, our parents, you know, they get involved. You know, they want to – they're going to be the squeaky wheel. And so they were on a good – you know, they knew him. They had his phone number, you know. And she sent me these pictures. She said, give these to Ron. You know, pictures number. And she sent me these pictures.

She said, give these to Ron. Pictures of his kids, pictures of his family, just as a friendly gesture like you would do to anybody. So somehow somebody found out I had these pictures. And then the guards came around, and they went through all my stuff. They called a shakedown. They shook down our cell. And they went through my stuff, and they found these pictures. And they put me all my stuff. They called a shakedown. They shook down our cell. And they went through my stuff and they found these pictures. And they put me in the hole.

Jeez. Because it's a threat to the security of the institution. Wow. For me to have pictures of the warden's family. They saw that as like some kind of evidence that I might be like blackmailing the war north threatening like which is a stretch but they what they did was they put him in a bind too because then he couldn't do anything about it like he it was really they were trying to get after him by taking his his his white violinist out of the out of the band you know because then how's the band gonna go on right they don't have a of the band, you know, cause then how's the band going to go on. Right.

They don't have a white dude in it. You know what I'm saying? It's going to be a little harder. And, um, so you spent six weeks in the hole total. Well, just during the beginning,

two weeks and then two weeks again there. Yeah. So that was four weeks up through the first two years. Well, plus we talked about, I was in solitary and reception. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. So I guess it was like six, but so then they, they took me the hole and years. Well, plus we talked about I was in solitary in reception. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I guess it was like six. So then they took me the whole, and I was like, what's going on? And basically, like, the warden couldn't do anything. He couldn't touch it because this was like, basically, they're putting him in a difficult situation. Sure.

So they rode me out to another prison. I had to go. So you had to leave. I had to leave that prison. You couldn't play anymore then? Not for a while. I ended up going to a completely different prison with a completely different structure of living. And this is where you lived in a big open room, right?

Yeah. So you had a cell with a room inmate, another inmate in the first two years. Right. Real clean. And the next two years, you're in like, there was like 100 or 200 guys in a room, right? Like 250 guys in a room. Just a big room with cot by cot, side by side. Yeah, yeah, three feet between each bed, you know?

And what was the scariest part about sleeping in a room with 250 convicts? Well, when you think about this idea of being alone all the time in prison, that's what most people think about, like you're locked up in a cell and you think that would be torture, right? That would be horrible to just be alone all the time. And it is. But actually being in a room with 250 other motherfuckers is possibly worse. It's scarier.

Yeah. I mean, it's just inherently. There's no security. There's no safety. Yeah, it's inherently very vulnerable. And when they say maximum security, that's when you're, you know, basically you're in a cell, you know, all the time because, but then you're safe. So if it's, if it's medium security and they've got you in a dorm like that,

you're actually less safe in a lot of ways. And, you know, guys that are in medium security prisons, a lot of them have been in maximum security prisons, but they work their way down a medium after maybe 10 years in a maximum. So it's still very, so you still have a lot of lifers, you have murderers, you have all kinds of criminals in a medium security institution. And it's very, like I said, it's inherently just a very vulnerable place to be in because you're just, you're vulnerable. uh, you're vulnerable. What was the scariest experience you ever faced? Scariest.

The most vulnerable. Wow. I remember you always, we'd come visit you like every week or two weeks. It seemed like we'd always drive and see you. And then I'd hear about all these stories and I forget most of them but I remember you telling some crazy stories well I mean I would have to say that you know when you think about prison you know people think it's violent you know and it's scary but the best way for me to describe you know the violence and I've said this before, but I think that the violence is

something that emerges. It's a feeling that emerges in the absence of, you know, other human, you know, things, uh, you know, freedom, trust, intimacy, um, love, whatever, you know, when you don't feel free, when you don't trust anybody around you, uh, when you're not, you don't have any intimacy or closeness with anyone that feels like violence, it's like an absence and, you know, you're just constantly afraid, you know, you're constantly, you just don't know what's going to happen every day. You just, you just, you know, there's all kinds of things that could happen and you don't know when they're going to happen. And there's just little shit that happens constantly. And you're like, how do I, how am I going to react to this? Just

like people just like staring you down or bumping you out of the way or just little power plays. Like someone turning the television station. It's like stupid shit. Someone comes up and sits on your bed or they just stand too close to you or whatever. Just all these infringements in your space. Just constantly. You just never – people that you see all the time, people you live right next to, you live in the same cell with, or you're just like three feet away from them all the time. Or, yeah, I mean, this guy just called me a name or just stared me down or moved into my space or encroached upon my space or basically told me to give him a cigarette.

And it's like, how the fuck am I supposed to deal with that? How do I react to that? I can either react to it by- How did you react to that stuff? I mean, differently at different times, but the, the problem is it's not just as simple as,

you know, I'll just fight. And then everybody's going to respect you because for a few reasons, you got to remember, I was serving a six to 25 year sentence. So if you get in a fight, no matter if somebody hits you or you hit them, it's a fight. And the way that they treat it in prison is like, you were in a fight. We don't care who hit who first or whatever. It doesn't matter. You're going to the hole for two weeks and you'll have it on your

record that you were in a fight. You're going to lose visit for two weeks, and you'll have it on your record that you were in a fight. You're going to lose visitation privileges. You might get kicked out of school for the semester. You might get moved out of that dorm to a less favorable living situation, lose various types of freedoms that you have acquired by having good behavior, lose commissary privileges. Yeah, you know, they just make your life worse and more unpredictable. And that record is going to affect when I go see the parole board because there's no guarantee that I'm getting out for 25 years. So I know I'm going to see the parole board in four years.

But when I see the parole board, the parole board is going to be like, well, we could let you out or we could tell you to come back in five years or one year or so if you mostly just never fought them i tried to avoid it yeah i tried to avoid it but that's the thing how do you avoid it you know yeah you you can't just give in to every encroachment on your space. I'll tell you what it made me really respect was women's experience. Because I think in a way that this is kind of like women experience like the regular free world in this way, like in a way where men are constantly encroaching on their space or constantly, you know, disrespecting them because they've got this some kind of physical power over them. And so women have to develop all these strategies for dealing with that. I really became intensely interested in that, and that was one of the things I studied in classes. I took women's studies or feminist philosophy

and read a lot about that. But I'm less qualified to talk about it than a woman, but if I had to, I would say you you know, you can rebuff people with humor. You can appear to be crazy. You can try to just play it off. You can ignore things or you can respond with aggression. And there were different times that I tried all those different things. And there were different times that I tried all those different things.

And over time, I got stronger and tougher and a little, actually, a little crazier. By the time I was three years into my bit, my fourth year, I had gotten pretty callous to the whole situation. I had gotten to the point of even being reckless at times. And I had been working out the whole time. So I got strong. I was really strong. You were jacked. I was jacked up.

I mean, I would work out like three hours a day and I was boxing. Yeah. I was running, boxing, powerlifting. I was doing everything. I mean, not every month, not every day because I would go through periods when I'd be really depressed. But then I would try to get it back on and I would, I would work out intensely, you know? And, uh, and so, and then I just, I just got to know my way around and, uh, and I started to get a little crazy, you know, and after a while I was, I was one of those guys, you know, pushing people out of the way. I mean, I wasn't letting myself get pushed out of the way,

you know, to the point where it got dangerous. You know, there were, there were times when I, when I called people out, there was, there was a one time I remember this guy who had, who had constantly been trying to intimidate me ever since I got there. And he was just a scary looking dude. And he would always just, he just had a big bark you know he would always just come full force with like you know just this like like he just looked like he was ready to go like you know all the time and he would see me just give me like the most the penetrating look you know or just you know just like stand look just cut in front of me in line and just like turn around look at i mean like what bitch, what are you going to do? That's right. That's what, you know, I mean, just like ready to go.

Just this dude was like jacked up and he was just like, he had, he was connected and like, you know, he, and so this one time I was just walking, just walking through the dorm and I walked like through a row of beds or something like that. And, and he like, you know, he called me out, he yelled at me or something and said something like, don't walk, you know, don't walk down here or something like that. And something snapped him.

And I was like, what? Let's take it to the bathroom. Cause that's, if you really wanted, if you're really serious, you want to hide it. If you wanted to fight, if you were really serious about fighting. Because you could be stupid and just be like, okay, just start fighting right there. But then the guard will see you. Because you're in this big room, but there's a guard that they'll see a fight happening in the room. So you're like, okay, meet me in the bathroom.

And then you go in the bathroom, the guards may not know what's happening for a while while or people may look out for you and tell you like hey the guards are coming stop fighting or whatever so so i was like follow me in the bathroom i'm not listening to your anymore i was ready i just didn't care and you probably been training for a while you were like i was i was yeah i was i was checked. I'd been boxing trainer. I was like powerlifting. I was really strong. I was really healthy. I was really,

and I was really pissed off. I was so pissed off and I was so tired of being just scared all the time. I was like ready to take out everything on this dude. And I went in the bathroom and I picked up a mop ringer. I don't know if you ever seen a mop ringer, but it's like this really heavy steel contraption, like on the end of a big, like wooden rod. And I just like picked it up and I got into a batter's swing and I waited for the mower to come into the bathroom.

I swear to you, I was so ready to take his head off with that thing. Wow. And he never came. Wow. He didn't show up. Once I called him out, he didn't come. And did he ever bother you again? He never bothered me again.

Really? He never even looked at me again after that. Wow. It was deep. But I mean, that could have been completely different. If that would have gone a different way, I would probably still be there. Wow. Because that would have been more than just a fight.

It would have been like, I mean, I would have hurt the dude. I might have killed the dude. I don't know. Wow. But he didn't show up. He didn't, he didn't walk through the door. That's, that's good. He didn't.

It's good. It's good for me. What's the biggest lesson you learned from prison then? I learned a lot of lessons, you know, but one I would say is that it's part of human nature to adapt to the situation that you're in. So when you're in an easy situation, it's your nature to get soft. And when you're in a hard situation, you can get hard. You can get tough. You can deal with it. And when I got out of prison, I told myself, I never want to forget what I'm capable of enduring. I don't want to get soft to the point that I feel like i need to be able to go

to a nice restaurant or i need to have a nice house or i need to have this because i don't need i can live in a cell i can eat canned food i can eat you know i can i can tolerate a lot and i don't want to forget that i don't i don't want to not be grateful for just having freedom you know like it's you know and there you have it guys this is the end of part one but make sure to tune back for the second episode to learn about the lessons that he learned in prison and what he did to apply them in being a successful jazz violinist and traveling all over the world and how he's applied it into his business. Very cool second half. So I want you guys to tune in and hear the second half of this

episode. You're not going to want to miss out on what Chris talks about. With that guys, thanks so much for tuning in today and make sure to go out there and do something great. Outro Music