The School of Greatness - 484 Rob Bell: The Truth About the Bible, Religion, and Spirituality

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

"If it's true, it will fundamentally have paradox baked into it." - Rob Bell If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/484

This is episode number 484 with New York Times best-selling author Rob Bell. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. We have one of my favorite human beings on the show today. His name is Rob Bell, and he is a New York Times bestselling author, one of the greatest

speakers I've ever seen in my life, and a former pastor. And he was the founder of Mars Hill Bible Church located in Granville, Michigan, which he pastored until about 2012. And under his leadership, it was one of the fastest growing churches in all of America. And he was also the author of the New York Times bestseller, Love Wins, and along with about a dozen other books that are all incredible. And in 2011, Time Magazine named Rob on the list of the top 100 most influential people in the world. He went on a tour with Oprah for a whole summer.

This guy is incredible. He's got a new book out called What is the Bible? And here's what's interesting about this. I love how Rob tells stories and relates stories, whether some people think are fictional or non-fictional, and how he relates it to modern day. And in this interview, we talk about how people are reading the Bible wrong, what the Bible actually is, what the antidote to despair is, why doubting something is not actually the problem, why truth has paradox built into every aspect of it, what the best way to serve others actually is,

and so many more things that we cover on religion and spirituality and creating magic in the world. If you want to be inspired, then keep listening because Rob Bell is one of those speakers and interviews that I just love the most. And he's a dear friend of mine. So I think you're going to really love this one. Also want to give a quick shout out to the iTunes review of the week. And this is by Greg Cheek, who says, amazing podcast. Lewis backs up all these amazing podcasts with massive action to his audience. I start every day at the gym listening to his

podcast to get me going. I watched Lewis and his guests at Mel Robbins spend hours with us all at at Success Live in Dallas, answering questions about podcasts and entrepreneurship in general, and transitioning to my speaking business as a new author, and thus this podcast is a must. I recommend it for everyone seeking greatness. So Greg Cheek, thank you so much for being the iTunes review of the week. All right, guys, if you haven't left your review yet and you want a chance to be a review of the week, then go to itunes.com slash greatness and leave a review right now. Without further ado, I've got Rob in the greatness studio. So let me introduce you to the one and only Rob Bell. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. We have one of my dear friends in the

house, Rob Bell. Good to see you, man. It's so good to see you. How you doing? It's so good to be with you again. I'm so pumped. One, because the Cavs are winning right now. Go Cavs. Go LeBron.

Absolutely. And I mean, like during NFL season, when you're over at our house on the couch for a whole Sunday, you need to come this week. You need to start coming over for playoffs. I'm coming. I got this new pasta I'm making with lentils. I think you'll love it. Your food is amazing. You've been going vegan, like trying different things. I love it. I got this new pasta I'm making with lentils. I think you'll love it. Your food is amazing.

You've been going vegan, like trying different things. I love it. Oh, we're trying all kinds of things. The almond pesto I think you made one time. I was thinking about the almond pesto for tonight. Oh, I might have to come by. Yeah. And especially when the Cavaliers with the greatest basketball player ever to play the

game of basketball in the broad change. It's true. What is it? Six times it's been in the- In a row? In six times in a row in the finals? Right. Is this seven or is this six?

This will be seven. If he goes to the finals? Yes. When he goes to the finals? Exactly. Against the Golden State Warriors. Exactly. You and I are so confident about this.

Unless something happens where they get injured, but knock on wood, they don't. I'm super pumped. The last time you were on was two years ago, we found out, almost, right? Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. You've been on three times, I believe. It's really two, you were on was two years ago, we found out, almost, right? Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. You've been on three times, I believe. It's really two, but we did a two-parter.

Make sure you guys go watch and listen to the previous one. But gosh, I'm surprised you haven't been on back since then. Because our conversation, maybe we just have this conversation, but we're hanging out so much. We had these conversations and we're hanging out. So to record it would be like, eh, never mind. Yeah, right, exactly. You've got a new book out called What is the Bible?

How an ancient library of poems, letters, and stories can transform the way you think and feel about everything. And I'm pumped that you came out with this book. Here it is in the video if you guys are watching online. I'm pumped you came out with this book because I've had many conversations with you about the Bible and religion and spirituality and all these things because it's so confusing. There's so many different points of views, opinions, judgments out there that part of me sometimes just like, screw the Bible, you know, thought process.

Screw this because, you know, it's very contradictory in the things it says. One person says something different than someone else. Someone said that God said something, and how do we know that's the truth and it goes all around and around and i love there's a part here at the end um where it says don't drag god into it someone else wrote this and that's how someone understood that event yes it may it's it's not what god said to the person it's what they think they felt or heard or thought about it, right? Yeah, right, right. And then they wrote down their experience.

Yeah, and I'd begin by saying, you're right, the Bible has caused so much damage. In many ways, it's often been an agent of dragging everything backwards, and it hasn't participated in the ongoing evolution of humanity. It's been a voice for primitive, outdated, violent, barbaric forces. I mean, even in our culture right now. So I'm aware that in 2017 to put out a book with the word Bible in it, for many people, just the word is like, seriously, come on. And actually, I think part of my work has been,

to me, that's an injustice. And part of it is showing people what you were told about, you were told wrong. And most people aren't reading it well. From the hardcore right-wing religious to the hardcore against the Bible, most of them are reading it as fundamentalists and missing what's really going on here. The reading as literal is what you mean. They're them are reading it as fundamentalists and missing what's really

going on here. The reading as literal is what you mean. They're almost like reading it and going, you either have to believe it literally is true or you have to deny that it literally happened that way. And both- And you're wrong. Are a misunderstanding. The biologist, who's like, all you faith people are idiots, and the hardcore conservative

fundamentalist, who's like, well, you're going to burn in hell, are all actually reading this book differently. So what you were saying, I think, is so helpful. The Bible was written by real people in real places at real times. So you start there. People wrote stuff down. That's it. And what's really interesting, like, the Bible was written on three different continents

over 1,500 years by like 40 different authors. 1,500 years. Yeah, yeah. So this is a wide span of time. And a lot of things that are in the Bible were oral traditions. They were stories you told around the campfire to make sense of things. What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman?

How do you forgive? What if you've suffered abuse? What if your nation, what if your family have been the victims of injustice and you're owned by bitterness? And you know, if I don't forgive, I'm going to be consumed with this hatred. How do you do that? I mean, these are the questions humans have been asking for thousands of years. Or if you think about it in terms of like politics or how we organize ourselves the bible is written by a small group of people who had been conquered a minority group that had been conquered by one

global military superpower after another so the egyptians the babylonians the persians the seleucids by the time of jesus it's the romans so these people have been on the receiving end of an untold amount of violence. So they're very suspicious of military power. And they're very suspicious of people who use their wealth to accumulate chariots, which were like the F-14s of the age. Right. So if you're an American. The Rolls Royce. Yes.

Yeah. If you're an American and you are a citizen of the most dominant global military superpower that humanity has ever produced no wonder you would miss some of the central themes of this book because it's the original rage against the machine it's the original bernie sanders because this book is essentially from a small group of people saying when you abuse your power when there's a growing gap between rich and poor, there's even a line in the Psalms, some trust in chariots, but we trust in God. But in the Psalm, we in the modern world, we're the ones with the chariots. Do you know what I mean?

Sure. So, I would bet for a lot of your listeners and viewers, the reason why the Bible was so misread is they grew up in a system that had to spiritualize this. It had to make it about what happens when you die. Because if you start reading the book as it actually came to us, these ancient letters and poems and stories, it's going to raise really provocative questions about you and the system that you're in. And people don't want to do that. Yeah. Do you think it's important for everyone to study the Bible,

even if they're not? Well, actually, in like Reed College, I think it is in Oregon, a very progressive college, they have this brilliant thing in their student manual about how you should read the Bible because of its power as a cultural artifact beyond anything else. Right.

Whether you believe in it as a religion or not. So here's an example. I would argue that one of the strengths of your work is that what Lewis Howes does is you charge into people's lives who have basically fallen prey to despair. And despair is a spiritual condition, which is tomorrow will simply be a repeat of today.

Despair is a spiritual disease because it is what happens when you come to believe that all that's happening from here on out is a repeat of this. And so the antidote to despair is a disruption where, oh wait, tomorrow's not going to be a repeat of today. But in the ancient world, in the ancient Near East, they had a cyclical view of history, which is everything that's happened has happened before and will happen again.

So this happened to your dad, happened to your dad's dad, happened to your mom, happened to your aunt. It's now happening to you. You'll pass it on to your kids. Everybody is essentially on the wheel. And so whatever's happened, just wait because it'll come back around again. So the Bible... That's not inspiring.

Exactly. So you think about, let's say, Genesis, first book of the Bible, chapter 12, a man named Abraham leaves his father's household. Well, the reason why that passage is so fascinating is this is the first time you have somebody leaving the wheel. Like when it says Abraham left. Yeah. If you're like in a hotel and you see a Bible in the little end table thing

and you read it and you were just to read, and Abraham left, you'd be like, see? Most boring book ever, in addition to the fact that it's long. But if you got just a tiny bit of context, you'd realize, oh, Abraham leaving was a brand new way of thinking about reality. That you could create a new tomorrow, a tomorrow that hadn't existed before, that you could not be enslaved to despair. So I would just argue that like the work that you are doing, there are so many ideas that are present in our culture that if you were just to ask, where did that idea come from? It's amazing how many ideas come back to the Bible.

So at one level, there's like a religious, you should read the Bible because you're awful and maybe you'd get slightly better. I'm not interested in that, but I am interested in why have these stories endured for so long? And it's because a lot of the times they're progressive, radical ideas about what it means to be human. And who doesn't find that interesting? But you're saying that it doesn't mean we have to take the literal word

of everything that's said there. We should take it and interpret it in a way that works for us, is what I'm hearing you say. Well, yeah, and one of the things in the book I talk about is reading it literally, which is different than literally. So literally would be, is it a

poem? Then you read it like a poem. And some agony, some betrayal, some struggle, if you talk about it literally, literal language won't do it justice. So my wife, Kristen, we're about to celebrate 23 years of marriage. If you were to say to me, why did I fall in love with my wife? And I said, well, she was 5'7", she drove a Honda and she's from Arizona. Yeah. That's true. I mean, those are literal facts,

but you'd be like, that is one weird, you know what I mean? That is one weird relationship. But if I said to you, I don't know, when we got together, it was like, I'd found my other half. Well, you mean like I was limping up till then? Or like, no, but you,

I shifted into a completely different kind of language because that's the kind of language you use. It's like a poem. Sometimes you need a poem. Some things are so beautiful that a science textbook with technical language would actually ruin it. But then in other situations, I need the facts.

I go to get my car fixed. I don't need the guy to say, well, your carburetor is just in a bad mood. You know what I mean? Like I need, it's the X945, we can get it here by tomorrow. Yes. So one of the main problems is modern people became so obsessed with technical precise language. Exactly how tall, exactly how much does it weigh, exactly how much ram does it possess, that we're not as good at talking in other forms of language.

And when you read this book, you're reading history mixed with poetry. You're reading poetry mixed with history. You're reading rants. You're reading letters. People's pain. Yes. Frustrations. Yeah, yeah there's opinions on

what should absolutely even based on their own situation even the fact that like in the life of jesus there's four gospels um there's four gospels that that differ on main points and so some people would read that literally and go, see, it all disagrees or contradicts. It's four authors. They're writing with a particular agenda. Luke wants you to know that any spirituality that ignores the poor isn't going to cut it. And the Gospel of Mark, he has huge warnings about the corrosive effects of empire. What happens when the people in government with their hands on the wheel are completely insane? And what happens when they tell so many, once again, we're just talking about the ancient world.

What happens when the people of power, when you think about the gospel of Mark, its opening line is it borrows a line from Roman military propaganda. Because 2000 years ago, what people were struggling with is, this empire that's ruling me, they tell all these truths and half-truths and lies because it throws the masses off. And if you can just keep distracting with half-truths, then people don't know what to believe,

and you can pull off all kinds of things. You're talking about history, right? Yes. See, this is why when you talk about why read the Bible, because when you read this, you're like, oh, wait. What we are talking about now is what people have been talking about for thousands of years. Crazy.

And one of the problems with the modern world is why bother with any of that stuff? We have now and we have now, and we have all these amazing tools. Yes, and there's thousands of years of wisdom that we can draw upon. How do you deal with new technology? What does it mean to be human?

And that's what makes it interesting to me. Wow, fascinating. And you were, you had a church for many years in Michigan. It was one of the largest churches, fastest growing churches in the country, correct? In another life, yes. This was like 10 years ago or 15 years ago? Yeah, it was a while ago.

Crazy. And you decided to leave the church, right? To leave that. You kind of built it up and you realized it was time to move on to something else. You have to keep going. Progress. I'm curious, is spirituality different for people who are religious versus people who are not religious? What a great question.

From your experience of being in the church to being out of the church. Well, you think about the word religion, it comes from the word ligament, which holds things together. So the idea, ideally, was that religion would help hold you together. And it would remind you of the held togetherness of everything. So you go and you light a candle and you direct your best energies and tensions towards your friend who's going through chemo. It connects you to your friend.

It helps you deal with your own anxiety and worry about your friend's health. And if you do that, light that candle once a week for a couple weeks in a row, now you have a routine. So we're not against that. So a lot of times when people are against religion, am I against institutions that oppress people and take their money for no good cause?

You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. But human institutions religious government business like um religious institutions have no corner on the market on failing people compared to all the other ways the institutions and culture sure you know what i mean sure um to me the really interesting thing that's happening now is people are realizing there is something despite all the damage especially religious institutions have done there's some sense that we're a part of something that we're connected

that life is a gift that there are these dimensions of existence that you can't access with your five senses yeah um you and i get together and we start talking and you could say like spirit is present something's flowing we're we're bonded in ways that go beyond we just like talking about sports right um and i think that is because this you can throw it's like a lot of people are rescuing babies from bathwater like we were handed these religious systems that didn't work for us and so people are tossing these systems that didn't work but realizing oh in that somewhere was something really powerful and helpful and divine, transcendent, infinite. Yeah. And so I would just say that some practice, and some people meditate and yoga and walk and hike,

and some people go to communities and services and light candles and do baptisms and- Therapy or whatever. Absolutely. It's all part of receiving this extraordinary gift of life and doing something with it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you attend church? What are we doing right now?

Do you go to a structure that is, you know, I usually on Sunday mornings, on Sunday mornings I go surfing and then I usually record a sermon for my podcast. There you go. And then my family and I have a big meal. Amazing.

That's what I do. So it's your version, your own version. Yeah, and actually my work, I like to go places. I don't really do any work in churches or formal religious settings now. I like, my job is to go into places where you would never think about spirituality or even religion and talk to people about how the whole thing is a temple. Talk to people about the depth of life. The world is a temple.

Yeah, yeah. We're not trying to build a temple and get people into it. And I would actually argue that was at the center of Jesus' message. There was a temple in his day, and he was like, that thing's coming down. He was out with the people, right? I would argue that the center of his message was the announcement that the whole thing is a temple. Work, business, raising a family, art, caring for the environment, all of this, standing

up for the rights of refugees and immigrants, all of this is holy, sacred work. You have an interesting idea about how to give people a product that would serve them well, and you go after that. Of course, that's part of what it means to be a spiritual person. Yeah, the whole thing's a temple.

How much did you study the Bible? Were you reading it a lot? I went to seminary. So I did like a master's degree where you studied like form and textual criticism. And I studied Greek and Hebrew. I did all that stuff for a number of years. And then I got a job in a church. This would have been my early 20s.

And I started giving sermons because the sermon for me, I realized I'm here to reclaim the sermon as the art form that it is. But the sermon got hijacked along the way. It got hijacked by people who are trying to build bigger buildings. It's like an edifice complex. You know what I mean? And for some people, the sermon got hijacked by, we're just going to keep telling you what you're supposed to believe

over and over again that we'll feel right and everybody else is wrong. But to me, the sermon was like this subversive guerrilla theater art form. You think about Martin Luther King. I have a dream. That was a sermon. But it was like an event. Nobody heard that. And they were like, I don't know.

He was better last week. No way. That was like a moment and you were caught up in it and you either you got it or you didn't or it was dangerous and beautiful and counterintuitive and hopeful and revolutionary and so that's what i set out to do and in the tradition i came from you'd give a sermon from the bible so i started reading the bible in light of like now i gotta say something about it publicly your opinion on it and then gradually which is why i started tracing the book i started realizing oh people have no idea what's Right. Your opinion on it, right? is so subversive and there's a collection of psalms in the middle of the bible called psalms like prayers half of them are laments which are basically god where are you they're about the

absence of god or like on the cross jesus says my god my god why have you forsaken me this is like the day god became an atheist there's all of this beautiful atheism in the Bible. Or even the word Israel means struggle. So, the fundamental story of the Bible is about this tribe called Israel, and their name is struggle. So, every person who's ever been like, why was I abused? Why is this system so corrupt? Don't tell me this universe is a safe place. Yeah. It's all part of the struggle. You know what I mean? So, so even when I got into it,

I was like, people aren't reading this because if they were reading this, they would have such different understandings of the whole thing that doubt is a part of faith. If you don't have doubts, like the pulse of faith, if you don't have, the problem isn't that you're doubting.

Problem is that you don't have any doubts. And that this book, time and time again, like turned left and everybody turned right. And I think probably at some deep, deep personal level,

I was like, this is an injustice. This is an injustice. The book. That this book has been so misread that for so many people Christian means Republican

capitalist that for so many people spirituality and faith mean the absence of pain doubt, struggle that the embrace of science and the joy of new discoveries is somehow seen as being against this.

Like, I think something within me just began, like, I'm going to change it. Wow. Because a lot of it is like this blind faith, right? It's like, just have faith that this is the way it is. It's kind of what people are taught. Exactly. And which couldn't be more the opposite of the scriptures. Jesus has asked lots and lots and lots of questions.

He answers one of them in all the gospels. Every other question, he responds with a question. How do you read it? How do you interpret it? What do you think about it? It's a great coach. Who do you think about it? It's a great coach. Who do you think I am? It's a great coach.

Absolutely. Not giving the answer, but having someone discover the answer within themselves. Yes. So I'm like in my early 20s. I get hired in a church, and it was a big church. And my job is to give these sermons,

and so I start reading this book, and I'm like, oh, this whole system is actually almost as perfectly engineered and designed to inoculate people against what this book is actually saying. You know what I mean? Because if they start reading this book, it will challenge the very fabric of this entire system. And then I just kept going and took it where I followed it, where it led me.

This is a challenge for being a curious mind myself. And I've interviewed all these fascinating individuals, a lot of different spiritual leaders, meditators, business leaders, and my beliefs have shifted because everyone has a different opinion and I can look at it and say, huh, that's actually an interesting opinion. Let me dive into that a little more and study it and see what makes sense, if it resonates with me or if it doesn't, if it works for me or if it doesn't. I just went to India and studied meditation for a couple of weeks. And I didn't get to dive into it as much as I wanted to. But essentially, I talked to the person who started this meditation training and I was like,

so do you believe in God or not? And he's like, do you want the real answer? And I was like, yes. He's like, it's not going to be a popular one. And you're going to think it sounds very egotistical. And I'm, you know, paraphrasing it, but he was like, I believe that we all are our own God, essentially that The wisdom is within us. And we can end our suffering when we choose to. We have the choice based on obsessive, self-centric thinking. We suffer, we worry, we stress, we have anxiety. We inflict all this agony on ourselves.

And then we say, well, we need, if God is the only person that can end our suffering, if we're like praying to something to end it, person that can end our suffering, if we're like praying to something to end it, we can always choose to end it whenever we want when we're aware and we remove those thoughts

and think about something else coming from a place of gratitude and a place of, you know, opportunity and control or whatever these other things. And so there's just so many different opinions

out there. Yeah, right, right, right. There's science, you know, you had an incredible tour where you talked about, you know, a particle that turns into Oh yeah, yeah, the expanding universe. There's science. You had an incredible tour where you talked about a particle that turns into- Oh, yeah, yeah, the expanding universe.

Another thing. And the next thing, we're always creating something new. Yeah. Like, what is the truth? What is the answer? Well, the first thing is to realize if it's true, then it will fundamentally have paradox baked into it. Give me an example. Okay, let's say there's some infinite divine source of everything.

However you want to define, because even when people use the word God, that's so loaded. What is that? Let's say there's some divine source of it all. If you could fully know that source. Source divine source of it all if you could fully know that source meaning creation of it all or just the whole thing flows from something it's sustained by something there's something more than just the physical reality we see yes let's just say like a really basic idea like that um if it was completely knowable then it wouldn't be infinite wouldn't be very big if your mind could wrap itself around there, that's not really going to be capable of sustaining something this interesting.

Right. But if it was unknowable and elsewhere, then what about all the great art? What about all the moments of love when you're like, there's something infinite happening between us? Yeah. So source would be both known and unknown. You know what I mean?

Yeah, of course. So there would be a fundamental ambiguity that would sit side by side with the clarity. I know that when I serve and give beyond myself, something happens that I affirm, that I can't quite fully comprehend, but is real. By the way, the Germans had a word for this, grenzebegriff. The German word grenzebegriff means that which is real, but beyond analysis. So it's that which in your bones, Lewis Howes is like, when I give and serve and move beyond myself

and don't just ask what's good for Lewis Howes, but what do I have that I could share? I am at that level connecting with something much larger than myself. Yeah. And the worse off the conditions are, the more it costs, somehow it pulls something out of me even more,

which is transcendent, supernatural, divine, miraculous, whatever you want to say. So that is both as real as it gets for you and yet put that on a spreadsheet. You know what I mean? Right. Take a photo of that on your iPad. Right.

So if it is real, if there is some divine source, it's going to pull multiple things. So you can see then the dangers, the danger of a fundamentalism. This is like, this is how big God is. These are the seven steps. It's like, no, you haven't left enough room for mystery. But the, I don't know, man, we can't know anything. Yeah, but I know this guy Lewis Howes, and when he serves, it makes the world better. So we can know that. So it would have this, both universal and particular,

it would have both this absolute and this ever-evolving. And that is, I would argue, the problem is people fall to either side and aren't willing, because the modern mind loves the binary. Is it this or is it this? Are you a winner or are you a loser? Success or failure? But the problem is in failure is where all this interesting stuff happens. So essentially, even to talk about God in a way that might actually not make you crazy, you have to move from this binary thinking

to what some would call a non-dual awareness where you begin to be able to hold two truths that appear to be opposing at the same time. So I would start there. So what do you believe then? And now we have something to talk about. Now we have something to talk about.

Liking that Everything is Spiritual tour that you came to? Yes. I mean, because... 13.8 billion years ago, the universe explodes out of infinite compression, an infinitely compressed point of nothingness, sometimes called a singularity. That's what scientists are saying right now, is that the universe is 13.8 billion years ago,

and it came out of a point of infinity, and it's just been expanding ever since. And at first it was just subatomic particles, and then about three minutes in it formed atoms. Those atoms formed molecules. Somewhere around the 13 billion mark, those molecules began to form cells, and you had inorganic and then organic cellular life.

And then sometime in the 13 billion, that's about 9 billion, 13 billion years in, you have the Earth with animals, and then you have these sentient, upright homo sapiens that can write poems and talk about this stuff. And people are like, there's no mystery? That just happened? So my starting point, any discussion about God to me would simply be, we're here, and this thing has been expanding and unfolding. And if you're going to tell me, no, it's just molecules,

it's just synapses, it's just cells, I would say, seriously? just molecules it's just synapses it's just cells i would say seriously the most intellectually honest thing to me would be to leave space for something let's just start there yeah then the question becomes well would you name that it's interesting in the bible there's lots and lots of different names for god because essentially when you use the word god you're trying to name ultimate reality so and that's what actually started God. Because essentially when you use the word God, you're trying to name ultimate reality. So, and that's what actually started to happen to me when I was reading,

citing the Bible is I was like, wait, there's a bunch of different names for God here. And this person uses this name. And this person talks about mystery. This person talks about revelation, the idea that you, there's some things you could know.

So that's what happened to me is when you're like, well, how can you know which is which? This is what the writers of the Bible were wrestling with. Wow. You know what I mean? Or how can we know if God is on our side? Because we're slaves.

Is God okay with this arrangement? Is the universe okay with this person owning us? So the Exodus story, this big giant rescue of slaves and Moses, that was a story asking the question, is the universe okay with us being owned? And the story was about, no, it's not. God is actually the God of the oppressed. The forces are on the side of the underdog, the immigrant, the refugee, the single mom. So that's always, to me, an abstract talk about God isn't that interesting, but I start talking about if there is a God who's, well, definitely that God would be on the side of

the refugee, the immigrant, the single parent trying to hold it together. Much more interesting. Yeah. What's the beliefs that you've had maybe over the last 20 years that have been shaken up that you thought like, this is 100% true. And right right and then oh actually let me lean into this a little bit absolutely yeah right actually nuts for me it's not my belief anymore what's is there anything that's happened in the last 20 and also 10 also five and two years absolutely i can think of one right away the realization that spiritual was not things that exist in some other realm, and when you die, then you go to some other realm, but the spiritual means soil, food, good business,

surfing, sex, music, creativity, that caring for the earth is central to a spiritual understanding of life. And that the tradition I came up from, spiritual meant kind of six inches off the ground and kind of other, like you sit on your cushion and you go somewhere, escape from the dirt and sweat of life. And when I began to read this book, it was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Spirituality is about your engagement with the dirt and sweat and stuff of life.

So that was like a huge shift. Second one, man, the tradition I came up from, who's a Christian, who's not? So-and-so a Christian? Are they thinking about becoming a Christian? Oh, they're not? Oh, so-and-so? Cliff, nice guy who's a Christian, who's not? So-and-so a Christian? Are they thinking about becoming a Christian? Oh, they're not? Oh, so-and-so? Cliff, nice guy, not a Christian.

Wow. And when I began to realize lots of people who make a big deal about being Christians are nothing like the Jesus message of compassion, grace, courage, nonviolence. And I keep meeting people who had never called themselves a Christian, who embody all of the best about what it means to be a human being. So those labels started to mean next to nothing. And then I kept meeting atheists, who when they talked about the God they don't believe in, I don't believe in that God either. And then they would talk about the upbringing in which they were told about this version of God. And then they would talk about the upbringing in which they were told about this version of God. And I'd be like, atheism is the only healthy

spiritual response to that. So I started to realize atheism and atheist and believer started to mean those categories didn't, because half the time I'm over here, I'm with you. So those categories just started to mean nothing to me. Literally to this day, mean next to nothing. But you and I and the talks we have and the depth of life and human experience that you and I want to taste and feel and soak in, that's something. That's worth talking about. Absolutely. What would you say is your purpose now and how has it evolved i want to help people connect with the depth and joy of life and i use those two because the moment you talk about joy people like what about cancer that's

why i talk about depth is uh what the modern world does is it cuts you off from the depth of life. Just skim the surface. Just numb the pain. Just skate. And I do that because I come out of this Jesus tradition that believes that there is a fullness to life that you can actually experience. So that's what I want to talk about, the joy and the depth. And I just keep announcing that the whole thing is a temple. It's all sacred.

It's all holy. You don't have to go on Sundays to reach it. The whole thing's a temple. Yeah. The meal, the conversation, the waves I will be catching tomorrow. You know what I mean? It's all my kids, uh kids trying to launch a business, trying to get along with an ex-spouse. It all takes place in a temple.

Yeah. All this ground is holy. What do you think is missing for most people in order to reach some type of depth and joy? That everything you are working and striving for, you already have. That so often,

we're working, sweating, clinging, grasping, striving to feel worthy enough. And the fundamental good news, what's called the gospel, is the announcement that you're loved exactly as you are.

You don't have to do anything. You're already a daughter of the divine. You're already a son of the divine. You're already in. There's this great line in the story of the prodigal son where the father says, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. It's interesting when you talk about, well, what do you think about God? I think in images, I think in lines, I think in pictures, and I think in dialogue, like you are always with me and everything I have is yours. So all of the stuff that we do

to feel like we measure up, that we're worth, it's all been taken care of, you're fine. Now in response to that, let's make some stuff. Let's do something. Let's go do something. But then we're coming from's all been taken care of you're fine now in response to that let's make some stuff let's do something let's go do something yeah but then we're coming from a different place and we're not doing this to prove something we're not doing this to earn something we're not doing this over someone to somehow scratch some itch or stroke some part of the heart that desperately has been beaten down and doesn't know, you're okay. In all of your not-togetherness, you're all fine.

All the ways you've made a mess of it, it's okay. It's okay. All the ways we've screwed it up. Yeah. It's okay. Do you feel like there's anything in your life where you suffer? Yeah, although I say that in light of how people really suffer. Right. Of course. I mean, you've got a nice home. really suffer right of course i mean you've got

a nice home you've got a great family right so i've seen too much of the world you're in hollywood you know yeah right right right i can almost see my house exactly yes by the way um you've got things done well but we all have our own inner battles yeah yeah what are yours if you have any I'll tell you this, the idea, the inner dialogue that says push, push, push. It's not enough. You're still earning. You're still,

uh, you do an interview and later I'm like, Oh, what did I answer it that way for it? And that, like that voice that always wants to be like, see, see, you don't have it you don't have it you don't have what it takes you're you seriously want to play this game come on who are we kidding

um instead of i'm here how much fun is this this is a gift you get to receive it there there is a wonder and awe to existence. And the struggle for me is when you lose that and you feel entitled. You feel like, yeah, yeah, that's nice. But, you know, the real world. No, the real world is a place where you can have wonder and awe. Yeah, that's like, that's every day. That's, so sitting in silence.

The practice is sort of, take me back to center we're here we're breathing it's another day let's try some things yeah you've been on a journey over the last i think like four to six months where you've been surfing almost every day is that right quite a bit yeah pretty much like four or five days a week or what? Yeah, I probably started six years ago surfing a ton. And at first it was like, oh, if you have some time, what a nice hobby, what a lovely sport. And I know that the surfers who listen to you will know what I'm talking about.

And then it turns into something similar to oxygen where it's like practice. And I was actually, I was actually doing this event with a legendary Buddhist teacher and I was talking about surfing and then I was like, but I probably shouldn't say anymore cause I'll just start gushing and it doesn't sound right. And he's like,

Oh, you mean moving meditation? I was like, you have a word for this? He's like, yeah, yeah. That's a moving meditation.

What you're describing is a meditation. But if I try to sit still on a couch or a cushion it's not going to go well yeah but i move and like uh not yesterday morning morning before last this pod of dolphins is in the water in a in the lineup and they're coming in among us and they're jumping all the way out of the water like this wow and they're coming like me to you so you almost like curl your toes in a touch just because they're like playing and the dolphin

isn't like, I'm a dolphin. It's just being a dolphin and it just, every time it does something to you. Oh my gosh. There's something

that happens. Yeah. Where was this? Right between. Santa Monica or what? No. Yeah, North Venice,

South Santa Monica right in that stretch. Dolphins were going right there. Oh yeah. The other day at Topanga there was a nice big whale went through. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah.

That's a little scary. A whale is another category of experience. You're never like, oh, a whale. And I've now seen whales for a number of years and close. One time, Kristen and I were stand-up paddling, and a whale went under her, surfaced between us, and then went under me. That's terrifying. Yeah. But inspiring and crazy well it's interesting it is like a terror that is benign it's not going to hurt you but it's also like the size of your house oh my god it's what strikes me about this is we have good things friendly things nice things in our lives that we're used to and then we have things that are terrifying to us but rarely are those two things the same

experience it's both terrifying and good that like rarely do you experience that in the water and then in the water with this like blowhole sound that's great yeah now if it was a shark it'd be a difference it'd just be terrifying I saw a great white breach the other day at Sunset Point. No way. And I had read that they were at this spot that I really like. When you were surfing? Yeah, and this guy next to me, I was like, I wonder if what I saw, I just saw. So I look over at the guy next to me, and he's like, did you see that?

I was like, yeah. And he's like, I had heard there were great whites out here. You stayed? Of course. Oh, my gosh. All the other people, you know, if you want to paddle in, that's fine. It's just more waves for us. Exactly.

Now, what are the biggest lessons you've learned in the last, I guess, six months? Since you've been doing this pretty much daily, I know we had a conversation. Oh, right, right, right. You're going there like all day until like a certain time and you're not, no fun. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're just kind of like take your journal. Yeah, yeah. What's the big lessons

you've learned about doing this every single day as opposed to just jumping in kind of like the rat race of like be on your phone and like working all day? Yeah, last year I finished a world tour.

End of November and I was kind of cooked. Yeah. I'd been to a lot of cities and so I needed like okay, I need to like reset the whole thing.

So I was like okay, first thing I'm going to try to do is each day I'm not going to enter screen land till late in the day so I just named it screen land and I'm going to work with I'm going to take pen and paper with me and I'm going to just listen

because my work is creating things I make things and then share them and then there comes this end of a season when and I'm going to just listen because my work is creating things. I make things and then share them, and then there comes this end of a season when I have to cook it all up again, and I have to stop talking. So that was probably the end of November I started. I would spend the first part of the day in silence. I'd go surfing, and then I would just sit with a pen and just note what was going on inside of me, sit with pen and just note what was going on inside of me and i wouldn't check any phone or email till like after 4 p.m really and you get up you go to the beach by the way when you do this

email takes you a tenth of the time because one of the things about email is you're like i don't know should i do this should i not do this what the scope to it? When you have spent the first part of the day simply listening to who you are and what's happening, there are all these things that are coming at you that you're burning all this energy trying to figure out. But when you're coming from a different place, you're like, oh, of course I do that. Or no.

And how many things come our way that are no's but we're not at full power, strength, whatever you want to say, clarity. Yes. And so how many times you'll like sit on it and then you'll sort of, ah. A lot. And then you're like, you realize later you said yes

because you don't want the person to think less of you. You want them to like you. And then you regret doing it when the time comes you have to do something. And then you're doing it and you're like, why am I doing this? This is because last February I was tired on a thursday and i said yes so as i began to think through as i began to think through oh the the more time i spend

away from screen land when i do enter screen and i'm able to see screen land for what it is. And I'm not, that's not my path. I'm not to do that. And letting that person down is the only path forward. So let's just let them down. Right. And I also was struck that it wasn't like we went a couple weeks and then it was like, oh, good. I'm rested.

Let's go back at it. The interior is infinite. See, for many people, the universe, does it just go on forever? Does it just push on forever? Could you just travel? If you had a ship, you could just go and go and go. So exteriors, we're comfortable with the idea that it's infinite. Or maybe there's a door that Jim Carrey goes through at the very end.

Right. But interiors are infinite. Wow. And you'd find this fascinating, because the very bad. Right. But interiors are infinite. Wow. So, and you'd find this fascinating because you do speaking. Yeah. It got like December, January, on a random day in January, sitting there, I would remember some event the previous July where I was standing in line after doing an event and somebody plugged in you know and and wanted something or took something or you know let me feeling when when people want a piece of you and i would become

aware of it oh that was actually a deeply draining troubling interaction but in the moment we got to keep going here we go go. And I didn't spend time thinking about what that was. And that's in there. It's like we store, they talk about a pain body. We store all these experiences we have and we're carrying them around. No wonder a relationship can be hard to sustain. This person isn't even aware of the stuff they're carrying around. be hard to sustain. This person isn't even aware of the stuff they're carrying around. And this other person has got a world of wound, desire, pain, hurt, loss.

And then they're trying to connect when we often aren't even connected with what's happening inside of ourselves. Yeah. And that's what's... So now I'm like four or five months in to this. You're still going every day. And now my day is completely backwards from what it used to be

I used to wake up turn on the email and then it's like here we go and now I'm like it'll be there it'll be there when we get to it

and what's the big thing you've learned about this journey most emergencies aren't and you feel more productive than oh wait oh ten times more wow and Mm-hmm. And. You feel more productive?

Oh, wait. Oh, 10 times more. Wow. And that you taking good care of yourself, which is not rocket science, is the best way that you serve others. And how you just start giving little pieces of yourself away and then wonder why you feel like a shell. And it feels selfish, and it feels counterintuitive, and it feels like you're just... But it's actually the best way that you give yourself to the world is you begin by whatever practices, habits, routines, rituals

actually hold you together. Wow. Yeah. That's the thing right there. Sounds nice for you, but most men are probably thinking like, oh, my wife would never let me do that. Just go to the beach for all day. Yeah, what's the thing right there. Sounds nice for you, but most men are probably thinking like, oh, my wife would never let me do that. You know, just go to the beach for all day. Yeah, what's interesting about your,

yeah, I'm not really at the beach every day, but I would begin with your wife does want you fully alive, and she does want you at your best. Right. So let's start there. Yeah. That might look different. You obviously have you know resources now

and flexibility and freedom with what you've created for the last 20 years in your life so you have those options but yeah but i don't i don't spend any more like surfing i don't spend any more time surfing than most people would serve spend going to the gym or something right um and like my wife went back to graduate school so um our eight-year eight year old and then our 16 year old and 18 year old, I like to step into some Mr. Momming, but even then I get more done than I used to simply because you're taking care of yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. Which, and that's been a long, slow evolving, just learning how to be at, be at the best so that we can do what we need to do. Yeah.

If there was a, be at the best so that we can do what we need to do. Yeah. If you were the author of a new book called The Bible of Today, right? And all the writers of these poems and letters and lectures and stories said, Rob, we want there to be a new Bible and we want you to write it. And we want you to do your best. Obviously, this is your interpretation, but we feel like you have the keys to the kingdom to be able to write something that would help a lot of people in this world,

no matter what religion, what they believe, what they don't believe, but this would be the new Bible. What do you think you would cover? What would I cover? Yeah, what would you would cover? What would I cover? Yeah, what would you write about? What would you cover? How long would it be to get the message across? And what would you want really people to feel at the end of reading this?

That is a fantastic story. I would go to the poorest places in the world and interview people. What do you want? What do you need? What burns in your heart? I'd start there. I'd start with those who the system isn't working and feel left out and at the edges. I would always, you always go, you go looking for the divine, you start there. And then I would interview scientists and artists, and then I would go interview farmers about the earth. I would interview people. What do you see?

What has been your experience? Tell me about your pain. Tell me what helps. Tell me about your wounds. Tell me about your healing. Yeah, I would not write it as an abstract. I can't believe I even bought into your premise. I just realized I actually took your question seriously.

Any guy who takes your question seriously should be questioned. But I would begin not with abstract intellectual ideas. I would begin with sweat and blood and wealth and poverty and strength and weakness. I'd begin there. I'd read that book. Yeah, yeah. That's where I'd start. And I would edit it together

in such a way that you might in reading those stories think something's going on here something's going on here that I could be a part of that's how I do it

when are you going to start writing it that seriously no one has ever asked a question like that that's a good one yeah it is that's a bizarre one i can't believe i i think it'd be a powerful book actually probably all my books are at some level me trying to answer that question yeah yeah yeah there's this interesting line in i point to this but there's this interesting line where Jesus says, you'll do greater things than these. And it always strikes me, I wonder, like, if there was a Jesus who came back,

I wonder if he'd be like, why are you guys still talking about me? Like, my whole point was that you'd go out and do it. I actually think some of the Bible writers would be like, why do you keep repeating me? Why do you, thanks, fair play, appreciate it. But the goal was that you would carry the story forward. And help the people in your time and your day, yeah. Right, right. The goal would be that you would learn what you could from what we went through,

but then new metaphors, new images. Like, for example, artificial intelligence. This already you have people saying, hey, hey, wait a second. Not all progress is progress. This could come with all sorts of things attached to it that we might be really wise to just watch carefully. Well, this is new technology. This is new fire. So how will it be used? What will it do?

What will it say about what it means to be human? These are all the very questions that we're asking now, which the, I mean, they're talking about iron. They're talking about stepping out of a cycle of despair. It's all the same sorts of questions. Yeah. A few questions left for you, but I want to make sure you guys go get this book. What is the Bible? How an ancient library of poems, letters, and stories can transform the way you think and feel about everything. You can go get it at robbell.com or you can go on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, everywhere else that books are sold. I don't think I asked you this question on the last time.

So I'm going to ask it to you here. And this is called The Three Truths. Oh, wow. Okay. I think I asked you this one before. No. Because I started asking, I think, after you came on. You've written how many books now?

This is like the 10th or 11th. 10th or 11th. Who's counting? Three New York Times bestsellers. Tours. Speaking Everywhere. On Tour with Oprah. All that good stuff.

Documentaries. This is, let's say, 100 years is the last day for you, right? You live for another 100 years plus whatever. As long as you want to live. And you achieve everything you set out to do. All your dreams. You create it. You do whatever you want, you make it come true. But for whatever reason, all your work is erased and it's not available for people to learn or read

or watch anymore. But you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three truths. The three things you know to be true, the lessons that you would pass on to the people after you're gone. For the whole world, this is all they see, these three lines or lessons. What would your three truths be? The first truth would be use the fine china. Because when Kristen and I were married, and you have to register, this was like 25 years ago, whatever, I learned that you register for two different kinds of plates. There's the everyday plates.

And I was just watching this as a dude who couldn't care less about any of this. And then you register for this fine china. And the fine china is basically these boxes of really nice plates that you haul around from apartment to apartment that you use once or twice a year. And when you do, you're like, don't break them, take good care of them. And when I went through a bad burnout a number of years ago, like crashed, hit the wall,

didn't know if I could work again, I sort of started to get back on my feet. I started serving my boys breakfast on the fine china because we only have today. So we're going to use the fine china because we're feasting because we have no guarantee of tomorrow.

So the first thing I'd say is use the fine china because we're feasting, because we have no guarantee of tomorrow. So the first thing I'd say is use the fine china. The second thing I would say is forgive everybody for everything. And that doesn't mean condone what they did. It doesn't mean brush it under the rug. It just means you have to take part in a larger flow of forgiveness because you hold on to any of that bitterness for anything anybody has done to you and it will eat you alive.

You will drink rat poison and then wonder why the rat isn't dying. So forgive, forgive, forgive. And then the third thing I would write down is everything is spiritual. It's all connected. It has infinite depth. And don't ever think that all of this isn't related to every other part of it. Everything is spiritual.

And that's where the wonder and the awe and the mojo and the juice and the joy comes from. Those are three things. Those are powerful. There you go. I like those. Is there a question that you've always wanted someone to ask you that they never have? No, I don't think about interviews.

I'm more interested in what you want to talk about. I never come into an interview with an agenda or assumptions. But is there a question you wish people would ask you more about that doesn't have to be in the materials? No, maybe I just don't, no.

And if you had to have a tattoo on your forehead in reverse that only you could see if you were in the mirror, what would that word or phrase be? Yeah,

I would have grace and peace because these two I would have grace and peace. Because these two polarities, grace and peace. Grace is it's all a gift. And peace is so in response to that, go help increase the peace in the world. Okay. One's about awareness. One's about action.

One's about doing nothing. One's about doing whatever you can. Yeah. Okay. I'll look for. One's about action. One's about doing nothing. One's about doing whatever you can. Yeah. Okay. I'll look for that tattoo in the future. One final question before I ask. I want to acknowledge you, Rob, for your childlike curiosity and play and joy. I think the thing I love about you the most is that you always have, you find wonder in

every little thing throughout the day. Whenever we're hanging out, there's always like something interesting. We're cooking something. Yeah, it's always like you're just fascinated by things. Yeah, I am. By everything. That's true.

How it works, how it moves, an idea, a possibility, and you bring it with like love and joy and passion and childlike wonder. And I think most people that I interact with who get older don't have that childlike wonder. I think that's what brings the most love in the world is this childlike curiosity and trust and questioning and connection. So I want to acknowledge you for that.

Thank you. And your ability to recognize also when you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself and staying consistent with that because you're right, I don't think, you have such a big heart and this mind of wisdom that can help so many people and you making sure you're taking care of yourself is so powerful because you're helping more people

in that process as opposed to being burnt out. So I acknowledge you for taking a step to the side to take care of yourself so you can help more people. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. Final question is what's your definition of greatness? Greatness is when you leave the room

and the people in the room have more hope than when you entered. Rob Bell. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Oh, snap. There you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this one. Rob, again, is one of my favorite people in the world

and so fascinating, the way he shares stories and his experience and knowledge and wisdom, and I just love it. Every time I'm around him, I just feel like a better human being. So if you enjoyed this, then make sure to share it out, lewishouse.com slash 484 and tag me at Lewis House and tag Rob Bell on Twitter

and Instagram stories and let us know what you thought of this one. I want to connect with you more on social media. So tag me at Lewis House. I love you guys very much. You were given

such incredible gifts on this planet. You were born with unique gifts and you can develop any talent that you want. It's your opportunity to make the most of every single day. Don't waste a second. Continue to stay committed to your vision. Stay focused on your vision.

Eliminate negative thoughts and negative people in your life and be the light that others need to rid the darkness from within them. I love you guys very much. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.