The School of Greatness - 488 John Gray: Overlooked and Undervalued but Not Forgotten

Episode Date: May 24, 2017

"You can be overlooked and undervalued, but you are not forgotten." - John Gray If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/488

This is episode number 488 with John Gray. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. We have a powerful leader in the School of Greatness headquarters today.

His name is John Gray, and he is a pastor, singer, and comedian who was born in Cincinnati, Ohio. That's right. You guys know I'm from Ohio, so this is going to be a fun one for me. He is also the son of two musically gifted parents, and he currently serves as an associate pastor at Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, under Joel Olsteen. And John is also the face of the Oprah Winfrey Network's new show, The Book of John Gray, which is a docuseries hybrid about his life and family while helping others with and through significant issues in very unconventional ways. And he's also got a new book out called I Am Number Eight.

And I heard him speak at Oprah's Super Soul Sessions recently and literally was blown away by who he is as a person, how he performs and speaks on stage and how he captivates through his message. One of probably the top five speakers I've ever seen in my life, hands down, it was unbelievable to witness. And I said, I got to have this guy on. I got to learn more about his story. I got to learn how he got to where he's at, But I got to have this guy on. I got to learn more about his story. I got to learn how he got to where he's at, how he's built this massive impact through this huge audience, and just more about him. And wow, am I blown away by the stories that he's about to share with you through the

challenges he's been through and all of the things that he's learned along the way. We talk about why drawing a crowd doesn't mean you have a committed core. Also, why you can't preach a sermon that you haven't lived. And for those listening, you can't really teach something you haven't lived either. The person you have to like the most in order to be successful in life. What loving yourself has to do with loving others. And how the things you don't have define who you actually are today. But before we begin, I want to give a quick shout out to the review of the week over on iTunes. This

is from Base Ben, who says, such a deep and powerful discussion. This completely hit the spot and for me, cleared some things up. I really didn't want to like your podcast because I listened to so many good ones and I didn't want to add more. However, I can't help it. I can see a huge benefit in listening. Thank you so, so much. Base Ben, I know there's tons of options out there, but that means the world to me.

So thank you for being the iTunes review of the week. And if you guys want to leave a review for how the show has impacted your life in any way, then go to iTunes.com slash greatness and leave a review right now. And without further ado, guys, let's dive in with the one, the only,

John Gray. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got John Gray in the house. Good to see you, my man. What's going on, my man? It's El Boogie. I'm got John Gray in the house. Good to see you, my man. What's going on, my man? It's El Boogie. I'm El Boogie in the house. I'm John Gray, yeah.

No, I never heard about you until about a month ago. Okay. And I went to Super Soul Sessions. And I almost left after lunch. Everyone's hanging out at lunch. And Oprah's walking around. And everyone else back there walking around. Right, which is so crazy that Oprah Winfrey is just walking around.

Just hanging out with everyone. And I was just like, should I go say hi to her? Nah, I'll be good. I'll wait for the moment. And I was going to leave because I had some other commitment I needed to go to. But I was like, you know what? Let me just check out this guy for like five minutes because you were, I think, the next speaker right after lunch.

And man, I needed to leave like right then after five minutes, but I couldn't leave because you were so captivating. You were so fascinating in your ability to teach and inspire and land a principle but also entertain and make us laugh and dancing, singing. You were like bridging the gap and doing the whole thing. And I was even more happy to know that you're from Ohio. That's it.

Because I love having people out here from Ohio. Come on, man. Born and raised. Cincinnati. That's it. Yeah. So about an hour and a half away from me in Columbus where I live for most of the time. But I would drive a truck when I was chasing my dream to play professional football.

I had a part-time job where I would drive a truck from Columbus to Cincinnati and back every single day. That's 71. That's it, man. It was the most boring ride. Yeah, except when you get to Kings Island. You can see Kings Island off to the left-hand side coming south. Rollercoaster, yeah. Right.

But I'm so glad you're here. I appreciate it. I know you're a busy guy right now. It's my honor, man. What you're doing is just phenomenal, and I'm grateful to be invited. We have a lot of mutual friends. Devon Franklin was talking about you last week when I was connecting with him. I hope he said something good.

He said some great things about you. I'll say something nice about him, but he's always in shape, and he's always challenging me to get in shape, and I'm sick of it. Right. Because he's got like an eight-pack, and I got a keg. He's shredded. Yeah, you are too. You got cowbells in here.

You know. And so I'm trying to work out. I'm already sore. I lifted the thing four times. I feel like I pulled my ulnar meniscus deltoid. Exactly. You know, I think your story is fascinating, man. You're a preacher or pastor at Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas under Joel Stein, right?

Who I think you said is like the nicest guy. He genuinely is like the nicest person. And it's creepy because he's so disciplined and he's so kind to everyone. And I'm like, does he ever have one of those days? And if he does, I've never seen it. It must be at home when he's just like, let's lose. Yeah, he just throws stuff like, Victoria, I said I don't want water. Exactly.

But he's a great guy that's it when you have that much discipline and your daily habits and your routines and how you show up to the world and how you treat other people good things are gonna happen to you absolutely and i think the words that you said was the key is discipline i know that he has a strict routine on you know his study time his, and all of the things. And he keeps his circle very close and very small. And I think as I've learned, as God's opened up more doors, the higher you go, your inner circle has to kind of remain small. Didn't Obama say that? Like no new friends when he got in the office? Listen, I agree with our former president in that I look at the life of Jesus when he was getting ready to,

there's a story called the Mount of Transfiguration, and he goes up, and he leaves most of the disciples at the base of the mountain, and he takes Peter, James, and John. And he always had Peter, James, and John at these key moments, which means sometimes even the people that you roll with, everybody in the crew can't go. And so I'm learning that as I've matured, there are certain things that everybody's just not to be privy to. And so I guess the discipline is learning who can go where and at what moments in my life. Yeah, or maybe you just don't have the energy to have 1,000 people with you all the time. It's like you can only handle three to five.

Exactly. Yeah, I don't have limitless energy. I've got to figure out who matters. a thousand people with you at the same, you know, all the time. It's like you can only handle three to five, you know? Exactly. Yeah. I don't have limitless energy. I've got to, I've got to figure out who matters. And right now I'm learning that right now, my wife, my kids, I got a five-year-old and a four-year-old, you know, and I've got all these invitations coming in. My wife was like, you can't take that.

I was like, that's huge. She said, your daughter has a dance recital. And I was like, wow. So do I take this opportunity for people who don't know me to meet me or do I take this 35 minutes and invest into my daughter? And so now I realize that she wouldn't necessarily she won't remember that I was there, but she would remember if I wasn't. And so, you know, every no, every yes to someone else is a no to my kids and my wife. So I'm learning that they now have to become my focal point and how I focus my energy. What made you want to become a pastor?

Because you went to Worcester. Yeah. You play football there? No, I played lunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I played lunch and gym. I went there for a year and a half. I did not want to be a pastor.

That was not on my list of things to do. I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a singer. I loved Luther Vandross growing up, singing R&B. I grew up singing in church, and I wanted to be a singer. I heard you sing Whitney Houston. It was pretty amazing. I hit the note.

I had a light head when I got finished. I was like, I just hit the note. That was good. It would have been horrible if I had cracked. But I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a singer. But at 13, I knew that my life's calling was ministry. I didn't know what that looked like. But there was something that happened to me in a small Baptist church in Cincinnati. I was at a revival. I think it was a Tuesday night. And while I'm sitting in the audience, I was impressed in my spirit. I felt like God said, I'm calling you into ministry. I was so depressed. It was like, no, because a lot of the preachers that I saw, you know, seem to live these, you know, insular, singular, very monotonous lives. And I didn't want that. I felt like my personality was

developing in a different way. And I didn't want to become one thing in front of people and be somebody else off the platform. And that's something else that I had seen through the years, that you can preach a thing and not actually live that thing. And that's not being judgmental. It's just something that I observed. And I remember having an honest conversation that thing. And that's not being judgmental. It's just something that I observed. And I remember having an honest conversation with God. And I said, God, I don't want to be like any of those people. He said, that's why I called you, because I want you to be authentically you. I said, well, I'm going to tell the truth and I'm going to tell him where I messed up

and I'm going to tell him where I failed. I'm going to tell him my scars. He was like, great, because that's what we need. I think for too long in certain areas of religious thought, we have put this idea of piety as perfection. I don't need Jesus in my life because I got it together. I'm broken. And so this idea of me on this high pulpit and people down here, I dismantled that. I'm like, this is a conversation between two people who are searching for something bigger than themselves.

And over the years, I've been able to develop, I believe, an ability to communicate across borders because people invariably have discernment for authentic hearts. Even if there are personality differences, they can spot a pure heart and a pure motive nobody likes to be manipulated and for a long time certain people in religious thought have used manipulation and fear as tactics and tools to try to indoctrinate and i don't fit that model i defy i don't like it i'm sick of it i think people need to be able to make whatever choice they choose to make on how they want to define their path to truth to something bigger than themselves or nothing bigger than themselves. But if the conversation comes up, don't let it be out of manipulation and fear. Let it be from an authentic place and be filled with grace and humility. Stop beating people up.

We already know we're broken. I don't need you to remind me. I need you to tell me that there's some hope, that I'm loved, that I have value. And I think those are the foundational tenets of kind of where I want to, how I want to be defined as a preacher. Now, educate me and the audience. As a preacher, what are the responsibilities? You have a church that you show up to once a week, multiple times.

What are the actual responsibilities? So I'm an associate pastor at Lakewood, and my primary responsibility is our midweek service. So it's Wednesday night, and we have weekend services. So we have three big weekend services, Saturday night to Sunday morning, and then we have a midweek, which is Wednesday. And my primary responsibility has been building our midweek for the past four years. And so we have our music.

We have our prayer. And then I'll share whatever the Lord has put on my heart. And it's grown, man, from, you know, maybe 2 probably $8,000 or $9,000 on a Wednesday. And I think that's... That's big. Yeah, man. Wednesday night. Wednesday night.

One hour. One hour. Yeah, it's a white church. It's not no black church. If it was a black church, we'd be in there for about four hours. There's no start, no stop. We're like, let's take a lunch break for about about 30 minutes get some fried chicken downstairs and i love that tradition i'm not you know that's kind of a part of where i came from

but you know i love the fact that for an hour and 15 minutes people can come in and just get their batteries recharged get some hope know that they're loved by god that they're not being beaten up and they're going to get something that resonates. You can't force people, especially now. This whole millennial generation and even Gen Xers, they're not on manipulation. If it's not real, they're not coming. They're not religious in their expression. So they're not going to show up if they don't connect to it. And so for people to make a decision to interrupt their regular routine, that means something to me.

I take that as a high responsibility. Yeah. You know? Wow. How many people show up on the weekend then, like a normal Sunday service? Oh, man. I think the weekend services probably see maybe 30,000, 40,000 somewhere in there. Each session?

Oh, no, no. Like overall. Got it. Because it seats 16,000 in there. So you're putting half the house in a midweek. Yeah. Wow. And then a normal session will be, like, almost 15,000.

I would say 10,000, 12,000, somewhere in there. Not that much more. No, not that much. No, but it's still crazy when you think about it. Right, because I grew up with, like, 300 people. Like, wow, this place is packed. Right, right. You know?

It's crazy. Is that the biggest church in? It's the biggest single size or single building church in America. Really? Mm-hmm. Seats 16,000 plus. Wow. Used to be where the Houston Rockets played.

How do you just take a building that the Rockets used to play in and turn it into? I'm going to turn this into a church. We need some stained glass over here. And Joel did this. Is that right or no yeah he and his family were the spirit they spearheaded that transition and it's a testimony to his i believe not only his integrity but his love for people what's the what's the biggest um challenge you would say that some of these bigger churches have and what people it's you know either members or people that were members maybe don't appreciate about some of the things they do because i'm out of

this world so i don't yeah you know i think that's an interesting question i think some of the biggest challenges are rooted in what i believe individual leaders finding so much of their identity in what they do as far as the church, that they don't know how to separate their calling from their ego. Yeah, because when they have all these people constantly coming to them. Yeah, and all of a sudden you want people to worship you instead of God. And I think for me, what I've been able to do is maintain the very healthy and necessary distance between my incredible normalcy and the incredible divinity that I believe in. And so for me, I never want people to come to me. People are always like, you should open your own church.

I'm like, for what? We got enough churches. We don't need another church. We just need truth and we need people with the right heart. And I think there are times when some leaders have been insecure, and because they identify success with numbers, they'll do anything to get a crowd. But a crowd doesn't mean you have a committed core. You can draw a crowd with prizes and prizes and things but if you want something

that's healthy and organic then let it grow naturally and be authentically who you are and I think that what people have tasted has not always been authentic and so people aren't really for

that anymore it's just like I don't need that. You know, I can get the God in my house. I can pray on my own, or I can watch Super Soul Sunday, or, you know, I can, or I can just be quiet and meditate. You know, what's the draw? And so it's become almost like, especially Westernized Christian thought in some areas. Again, I don't want to draw a big paint with a broad brush, but in some areas it's become entertainment driven to the point that there's a very little distinction between that and any of the other entertainment products that we have.

And I'm all for cutting edge technology, lights, music, sound. But if you don't have humility and if you don't have a heart for people, it will not last. And so serve God, serve people, live quietly and don't judge. That's the biggest thing, I think. Oh, absolutely. People don't like the religious element or church of the judgment, right? Absolutely. This idea of judgment comes from an individual's perspective. I think one of the biggest challenges the church has in certain areas is that

certain segments of the church have answered questions nobody was asking. I don't get to come into your life and tell you, hey, Lewis, don't you drink that water. That water is wrong. How dare you drink that sin water. That water is sin. Hey, guess what? I didn't even introduce myself to you. Guess what? We don't have a relationship. Guess what?

You're already offended because I came into your life without knowing your background or why you're drinking that water and told you it was wrong based on my perspective. I don't get to do that. And what I've seen is that people are pointing this way instead of looking this way and saying hey Lewis you know what I don't drink this water you know why because in my experience I found that this water is not beneficial to me because of X Y & Z now what I did is I showed you my process I didn't judge you for yours. And that's the problem with places that don't want to build bridges.

They kind of want to build their own little island. And these are my people and this is how I think. And that's not who I saw Jesus being in the New Testament. And so I don't get a, sometimes I don't have friends on the conservative spectrum of Christian thought, because I paint a bridge big enough for everybody to get over, because I know who I am, and I know my weak areas, and I know my broken places, and I saw my family, and I saw addiction,

and I saw what drugs did to family members, and I saw mental illness, and I saw what drugs did to family members and I saw mental illness and I saw brokenness and single mothers and aunts raising kids without the husband there. And I saw, you know, some of the levels of depravity that can happen when you don't have an anchor in faith. And so I'm not going to let people beat up people who are walking through real life and you don't know their story. through real life and you don't know their story and so I'm very very defensive of people who attempt to try to define for others what truth is yeah what's the biggest challenge you're facing your life right now biggest obstacles oh you've got it you got a you know your pastor out of the biggest church in the country you've got a book out right now, which is called,

what's it called? I am number eight. I'm number eight. You're got a, a hit show on, on the own network with Oprah. You're on super soul Sunday, super soul sessions.

You've got all these things that are working for you. What's not working for you? Boy, that's good. Um, I think I struggle with daddy issues. What does that mean for you? My mom and dad divorced when I was very young.

And my father was not a strong part of my development. I saw him four times before I died. I can almost tell you every single word he's ever said to me in my life. Wow. I remember him holding my hand as we walked across the street. I remember the five dollars he gave me on the steps of St. John AME Church before the funeral for his uncle. I remember him telling me that the divorce and what happened between him and my mom was his fault. I remember him calling me drunk from bars in New York, telling me he loved me, calling me collect. I remember the last time I spoke to him, I was heading down Route 1 south in New Jersey to my one bedroom apartment.

It was my first job in church as a youth pastor. My father was talking to me on the phone and he was kind of incoherent. I didn't know if it was due to medicine or if he had been drinking or both, but it was raining. And I remember him saying, son, are you driving with your cell phone? This was back in 2000. And I said, yeah, dad, I got my phone in my hand. And he said, call me back when you get home.

Don't drive with your phone in your hand. I love you. I said, I love you, too. He was real dramatic. His voice was always like Charlton Heston, top of the mountain. I don't know where he got that from. But I remember hanging up the phone. I didn't call him back. I guess a week later or less, my mother called me and said, your father's in terrible trouble. He's in a coma in New York, lived in Jersey at the time. in New York, lived in Jersey at the time. And so I took the train over. I drove over to see him and, you know, he never woke up from that coma. And I think that was probably around October.

And I happened to have meetings in New York on December 7th of 2000. And after the meeting I had, God said, go see your dad. And so I couldn't get a cab. Nobody would pick me up. And I'm walking to East 23rd and First Street in Manhattan, get to the Veterans Hospital. I go up and I see this man who I come from, whose name I carry, John Gray, Jr., John Gray, the third. Gray Jr., John Gray III, and I realized that this is everything in my life in front of me. What I do with this moment was going to determine what happened with the rest of my life. The Bible says, honor your father and mother, which is the first command with the promise that it would go well. It didn't say honor your father if he honored you or if he raised you or if he was there for you. It says honor.

father, if he honored you or if he raised you or if he was there for you, it's his honor. And so in that moment, I called his mother, my grandmother, who was still alive then. I said, Grandma, I'm here with dad and he doesn't look good. If there's anything you want to say to him, you need to say it now. I put the phone to his ear, let them talk. And I told her I call her back. I grabbed his hand and I told him I love you and I'm gonna make your name good in the earth I said I'm not mad anymore I forgive you for not being there for walking away from me and mom and I'm so

glad to have your name and that you told my mom to name me after you. And I sang some hymns over his bed, some church hymns. Just, you know, There's not a friend like the lowly Jesus. No, not one. No, not one. A amazing grace. How sweet the sound. And as I i'm singing the nurses are gathering outside the

room they're listening to me doctors have stopped i'm just pouring out 27 years of pain and love and forgiveness in one moment goodness and when i left i And when I left, I hugged him and I said, I know I won't see you again on this side. I prayed with him and I said, they tell me you can hear me. So if you can hear me, I want you to repeat this prayer with me. And I was like, pray with me. Lord Jesus, forgive me of my sins and save me. Just something real short.

But I remember saying that with him. I don't know if he heard me. I don't know any he heard me I don't know any of that I just knew I had to do it for me I needed to heal because I couldn't be held hostage to the pain of a father that wasn't there and when I left that moment I said goodbye I got on a train went back to Jersey when I got to the New Brunswick train station, my phone rang. My mom said, your dad passed. He stayed alive long enough for me to get it right.

I believe God kept him alive. The reason why I say my biggest challenge is daddy issues is because here I am at 43 years old, and there's a father-sized hole in my heart that longs for him to be here to say, I'm proud of you, uh, for him to still give me guidance, man. I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to raising kids. I don't know how to be a husband. I didn't see any of that growing up. I don't know how to react and respond every time my wife, you know, has an issue and she's more emotional about things than I am. There's some real cold areas in here that I've identified. I can become very emotionless and very closed off.

And that's not the way to build a healthy family life. These are the things people don't see. I don't preach for people. I preach for me. I'm preaching because I need to know that there's something and someone bigger than me. When I'm talking about Jesus, I'm not trying to force anybody to see life through my lens. I'm trying to see, I'm trying to let them see how I'm surviving. And so even though he's not here and it hasn't been here for 17 years,

I still yearn for the approval of a father. And so it drives me. I want to do well. I want to do right. And when I don't, I beat myself up. You know, every sermon, I don't even want to hear it again. Once I preach it, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it because I've already nitpicked what I could have done differently.

Did I accurately represent the scripture right? Was Jesus seen? Because too many, that's the biggest thing for me. I don't think Jesus has been seen. Whether people choose to believe him as Savior, which that's my personal thing, but who he was as a man is someone worthy of our review. He loved broken people. He served poor people.

He treated everybody equally. And he fought for those who couldn't fight for themselves. Those are lessons that can go across every corporation, every civic organization, every nonprofit. And so this is, for me, the big challenge in my life. Living a life, feeling like an orphan. And now the very thing I need is the thing I am. I needed that, but now I'm a dad. I needed to see a good husband, but now I'm a husband.

So I'm scrambling trying to figure out how to put these pieces together. And I guess maybe all of that on the inside of me is why people hang around or want to hear what I have to say because I don't hide that. I don't think I've gone in as much detail as I have with you, but that's your gift because you're so kind and so open. You allow for moments like this real transparency. I'm surprised I've been able to hold my tears. I probably am about two minutes away from the waterworks.

I've been holding them back myself because we are more connected than you think. About 12 years ago, my dad was in a coma for three months, got in a really bad car accident. And it was my last year of college. And it was during my football season. And he never missed a game ever since high school. Like he would travel. I was in private school when I was in eighth grade. I went to a boarding school in St. Louis, Missouri.

And he would fly midweek, drive out from Columbus to St. Louis. Seven hour drive every week. Basketball, football, track, didn't matter. And when he got in his accident when I was 22 and I had to play the rest of the season with him in a coma and then he woke up

Thanksgiving Day. Wow. He was in New Zealand during the time so I didn't get to see him at all for like three months until he came back after he woke up. It's been a challenging decade, 12 years now of him being alive, but him not being my father, he doesn't have the mental capacity to really understand he has amnesia. So he forgets. So I don't have the relationship of a father anymore. And I, you know, I only see him a couple of times a year and it's, there's just, it's not that connection or that, um, mentorship or that it's like, I have to kind of teach

him and, you know, I had to take care of him, my siblings and I, you know, change his diaper when he got out and like teach him how to walk and talk and read and write and all those things. So for me, it was, uh, you know, it's similar that he's not here, but he's alive, but he's not, he doesn't really know what I'm doing. And so it's tough to be like so driven and not have that approval as well. Or to have him be like, you're doing a great job or, you know. I just wanted him to tell me that one time I didn't play football.

I played soccer, if you can believe it, many pounds ago. And I would look up in the stands in high school. He was never there. I knew he wouldn't be there, but I looked anyway. He told me he was going to get me a car when I turned 16. He told me he was going to come pick me up. I'd look out the window. I knew he wasn't even in the city.

But there's something in the heart of a child that wants to connect to your origin yeah it helps to give you definition and and so here i am at 43 and i've got people asking me for advice about marriage and about family and i've got revelation on it but practical application it's like, do y'all realize I want to disappear right now? I don't think people understand. You know, people ask me, how do you feel about the show and the book? And you work at Lakewood. Was this your dream? No, none of that was my dream. None of it was my dream. My dream was if I make it out of this neighborhood and get a good job, get a wife that loves me, I never thought I'd be a father. I never thought I'd have, you know, a wife.

So the fact that I'm living things that I have no template for is very terrifying. Every day I wake up and there are many days that I want to run away. I wish I could be anonymous sometimes, bro. I wish I could go to a town where nobody knew me and be anonymous, go fishing in a creek or in a little pond and preach at a small church with no internet, no blogs, and just love on people. I know that's not my calling. i believe i'm called to reach the world i believe i'm somebody that's supposed to cry out and and build bridges but i sure do wish i could run and hide some days dave chappelle did that yeah in ohio ohio man that's it you know and then when he got healthy and whole and healed he came back now he's got

two amazing i haven't seen him yet great yeah but i want to i'll definitely want to check him out but the same creativity that it takes to write a song it takes to write a sermon but you can't you can't sing a song you haven't lived you can't write a sermon that you haven't lived you gotta experience you gotta experience it. For it to be authentic, right? Exactly. So if you haven't gone through pain, if you haven't gone through process and trial, then you should probably sit down somewhere because people don't need to hear, I'm perfect, why aren't you? I don't need that. I need to know that you were broken. Show me where you failed. Show me your scars. That's what the book was about.

I am number eight. You know, King David, he wasn't a king all his life. He was the eighth son of a man who didn't even see his value. When the prophet came to look for a king, he wasn't even invited in the house. Seven sons were invited, and the prophet said, none of these are the ones. Do you have any more kids?

He was like, well, I got another one. He's out in the field. No way. First Samuel 16, bro. And so Samuel calls for David and he comes in and he's anointed king as a teenager. And all of his brothers despised him. There's a lot of backstory to the reasons why. His father didn't see him, couldn't speak life to him. No one knew what he carried. He was invisible and hidden in plain sight. I'm sitting here learning about you when my buddy James, who, you know, handles all of the PR, wonderful brother, he told me about your podcast. And I just did a brief, quick glance and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing.

And just to see how God brought you from this place. Delaware, Ohio is not the hotbed. It's the smallest town. You know what I'm saying? And so for you to emerge from this small town and have such great influence is just what the book is about, going from anonymous to necessary, from what's your name to we've been waiting on you that's what the book is about that you can be overlooked and undervalued but you are not forgotten god has not forgotten you and so i think that again to to go back this is a long way around

but the greatest challenge in my life is reconciling the need for a father who's not coming. So how do you create that for yourself? I think that's where my faith came in. I think that's why my faith is so important to me, the idea of a heavenly father, that there's something eternal, that these few years that I have on this earth will not be the end of my impact. I have a son now. I have a daughter. So the microphone becomes a baton.

And one day I'll pass it to them and I'll sit down and they'll put me in the ground. And hopefully I will have lived well enough that I left something better than what I had when I started. I had an amazing and still have an amazing mother. But I think the power of legacy is for a father to speak identity and to let his children know they have value and that they are protected at all times. And for me, I want my life to be defined by what I left in place for my kids and my grandkids. And I really honestly believe that that hunger for a father will never leave. I don't think it'll ever be filled because that tender place gives me a heart for everybody else. Yeah.

I understand tears. I understand people's longing. We're all broken somewhere and we're all looking to be filled or fulfilled somewhere. And that for me is probably the thing that'll always be there. Do you have any father figures or mentors in your life that support you from time to time? Obviously, I do. I do. Dr. James Mormon is a phenomenal pastor out of Detroit. Nobody would necessarily know him, but the way he's lived his life, his willingness to be open about things he would, you know, lessons he's learned, things that have shaped him, the way he loves his family. things that have shaped him the way he loves his family um strong man dr a.r bernard brilliant man academic brain amazing theologian but he's got a heart for people he's connected but he he's he's a type of man i want to be when i grow up you know these are the type of men

that that i connect to there are men who love their wives, love their children, and who are establishing a legacy. And that's who I want to be. And TV is great. I'm grateful for the show. I'm grateful for the book. But those things won't last forever. And when it's done, I can't let that be the defining moment of my manhood. It can't be the only part of my legacy. Because if that's the case, now I'm allowing or yearning for the approval of people. Because the truth is, if people don't watch the show, the show won't be on the air. And so I don't want that to be the thing.

Please like me. I need to like me. Because when this is over, I need to look myself in the mirror and say, I've done what I was created to do. Is there anything you don't like about yourself? I need to lose weight. And I need to have more discipline in my physical body. It's funny for a preacher to say you need God to save your soul you need Jesus to save your soul

and he can help you with anything and he can heal cancer and he walked on water but you can't discipline yourself and you're a preacher to eat the right things so I'm challenged in my own faith walk that

gluttony is in that Bible too you see what I'm saying so i think for me i need to change the habit come on dude it's corn on the cob it's biscuits it's mashed potatoes you know and donuts oh don't do it any sugar i'm like come on bro heat the donuts for 12 seconds. That's Krispy Kreme off the table. You shouldn't have said it. And not 2% low-fat milk. The whole milk. Whole milk. Vitamin D. Pasteurized premium milk.

When I think about what I need to do, that's the final frontier for me. Dealing with diabetes. I was diagnosed with diabetes some years ago. I never took it seriously. Like half of Ohio is. Right.

Midwest, I feel like. Right. All of Ohio has diabetes. Get your insulin pens out. Wave them in the air. Wave them like you just don't care. But when I think about that part of my legacy, because my father died of complications from diabetes. Really?

Yes. That's what I didn't say. And so the sins of the father have come to visit the son. And do I really want my son yearning for a father figure who could have changed? Because diabetes, I remember praying about it. I was like, Lord, heal me. He was like lord heal me he was like no stop eating that much right i can't pray for god to heal you from diabetes and eat a pork chop it doesn't work like god i know you're able you know he's like i am but i'm not gonna i'm not

gonna over i'm not gonna overturn your will yeah you need to change diabetes was an invitation to discipline so now i've got trainers and now i've got somebody helping me on the nutrition side and i'm eating more kale and red peppers and garlic and gluten-free gmo bars with whatever dairy-free right they're even laughing because they just it's like gluten free in my house and she's a vegan are you well bless your heart ah so nice christine anyway so and then my wife said you need to eat turkey bacon i was like that's a lie that doesn't even make sense is it turkey or is it bacon did they put bacon sauce on the turkey meat just give me real bacon but yeah man so how long have you been working on this health crusade oh years like seriously working on it oh the last few months okay so yeah like recent like when i open the refrigerator there's alkalized water and there's supplements and you

know all of that so that's only been the last couple months. And I'm down like 20, 22 pounds. That's a great start. It's a great start for me. What's the goal? The goal. And by when? I want to get down to about 240. By when?

By the time I die. I would say, honestly, six months. Six months. I want to get down. How much is that? It'll be a year. I think it'll be a year realistically. So what is it?

What is the date today? May 7th? 8th. 8th. Okay. So I'll come back in a year. I'm going to get your info and check in on you. All right.

5-8. And May 8th, 240. If you're not there by then, what's at stake for you? If I'm not there by then, I'll come back here on the Greatness podcast and I will donate, I'll donate $10,000 to the charity of your choice. $10,000? $10,000. Is that enough for you to really? $10,000. $10,000.

Is that enough for you to really? $20,000. Okay. $25,000. That's it. You sure? $25,000. Is that enough? $25,000 to the.

I already know where it's going. Okay, $25,000. If I'm not at $240,000 a year from now. $240,000. Not $241,000. Not $240,000 and a half. $240,000. $240,000. $240,000 a year from now. $240,000. Not $241,000. Not $240,000 and a half. $240,000. $240,000.

$240,000. It's got to have a $240,000 and a $0. $25,000. $25,000. Two donations. Yes. And if I make it to $240,000, I will give $25,000 to myself. There you go.

Exactly. Okay. You sure? All right. Oh, man. We just shook hands? All right. Oh, man. We just shook hands. All right. It's in.

It's in the stone. The publicist sees it. Everyone watching sees it. May 8th. I love that, man. What do you think is available for you when you will reach that? I think I'll get to meet the rest of me, I think that this fat suit has hindered my ability to see myself as valuable. I know it's hindered my ability to love my wife properly because there's a scripture that says, love your neighbor as yourself.

And people assume that Jesus was talking only about the people outside of your home. But my wife is my closest neighbor. And if I abuse and misuse my body, then if I'm not loving me, it's not possible for me to fully love her. And so to love the person closest to you starts with me. But I never saw myself as worthy of love. I never saw myself as attractive. I never saw myself as someone worthy of investment. I can't tell you why. Well, your father's never there. I mean, the story that a kid would say probably is, well, my dad's never there.

Right. And my mom, she's always telling me how amazing I am. And I'm like, of course a mom's going to do that. Sure. I think that there are areas of, I think, learning, revelation. And the truth is, I think my influence will increase because people are very cosmetic. And if you have a particular, you know, look, they listen a little better. But if you look like Jabba the Hutt, then they're going to probably tune you out. So I think for me, there's a lot at stake.

But people don't tune you out. That's also could be like tempting for you to be like, well, look how accepting I am. I've got 8,000 people here. I'm connecting to people in a certain way. So they are listening to me the way I am. Why change? I am getting results.

Why change? And the getting results. Why change? And the reason why I should change is because this is really not who I want to be. I'm not happy with this. And I tell my wife that all the time. And she's like, well, no one can change it but you. That's it. So, man, I appreciate this conversation to be able to just dialogue with a brother about some of the things that I've been battling through. Because it's important for people to see humanity and divinity.

You know, this whole show, the book of John Gray, it's not about look at this great preacher guy. It's about looking at normal people who believe in something supernatural. And we're super normal. And it's the intersection of faith in humanity you know and and i think that's why it's been able to resonate with audiences and i hope it continues to but no it has been i watched the first couple episodes a few weeks ago and it was they're great man thank you bro yeah this this next one i'm a little nervous about because i talk about uh dealing with abuse when I was four years old.

And that's when my father left. Emotional, sexual, sexual. Yeah. And a part of that anger was if you had been there, these men wouldn't have done that to me. And so I deal with that in this next episode. So it's like, you know, because Oprah gets you to do stuff you would never normally do. So just being a network kind of opened me up to the to the reality that you know what maybe there are other people that need to deal with some stuff that happened when they were little and maybe this

is an avenue there's a lot of people I mean I was you know we're more in common than you think I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know when I was five by the babysitter's son. And it took me 25 years to actually start talking about it. I opened up about four years ago about it for the first time. And I was so driven to prove people wrong and to protect myself constantly. That's why I got into sports. That's why I was very aggressive when I felt like someone was attacking me. And I was always driven to achieve to prove people wrong, to make myself better than them. And I always needed to be right. I needed to win and I was always driven to achieve to prove people wrong, to make myself better than them, and I always needed to be right. I needed to win, and I needed to be right

to feel like I had worthiness, and I opened up about this on my podcast three years ago about being sexually abused. I started telling my friends and family, but then more and more people said, you should really talk about this on your podcast, and I was against it. I was like, no way.

I want the world to know this about me. But it was the most powerful episode I've ever done in terms of the results and the impact it made. The hundreds of emails from men and women who opened up and all the men saying, you know, I've had this secret my whole life. My wife doesn't even know. And you just gave permission for me to start the healing process. Yes. So I think this is probably going to be one of the most important things you do do. doesn't even know and you just gave permission for me to start the healing process yes so i think this is probably gonna be one of the most important things you do do one in six men have been sexually

abused i did not know that one in six one in six.org it's got all the information and the research behind it and there's not a platform for men specifically masculine men to talk about this and that's why i think it's really important that you have this platform that you're able to share openly and vulnerably because it's going to serve a lot of important that you have this platform that you're able to share openly and vulnerably because it's going to serve a lot of men who didn't even know that they're even allowed to talk about it or how to process it or

what's available on the other side. What are the resources? Because how do you process that at four years old and five years old? You don't because mine was a non-family member too. You think about that. And then, you know, again, the fear of being a father creeps up because my son is my daughter. Yes. Oh. And so now my wife's like, why are you so because I'm really overprotective.

And it's because of what I walk through and I don't want to live my life in fear. And so we deal with that on the show. It's deep. My wife said, I didn't even know that. Some things that came out. And I didn't realize I hadn't told her. But the truth is, it's hard to unearth and unpack that stuff. It's really hard.

It's a very vulnerable place. Yeah, you don't know where to start. You don't know who to start with. Where do you think you'd be today if you had the greatest father in the world who was super healthy and always there for you? You achieved what you wanted in college. You finished. You had all the things you wanted growing up. You weren't sexually abused.

You had all this support and love. Where would you be right now at your age i would be a very successful lawyer with a trophy wife and empty kids because i would have determined that My value was based in things. Every deficit, every place of failure, every empty chair made me who I am right now. Everything that I am is because of everything that was not. All of the empty places have given me the empathy, the compassion and the grace to be able to connect to people from different backgrounds and walks of life and find common ground and value. I absolutely believe that had I pursued my original vision for my life away from the calling that God placed on my life. I'd still be alive, but I'd be far less empathetic, material driven. And I certainly would not have had the same level of impact.

I think brokenness is the prerequisite to greatness i think we're supposed to give three truths that i slipped up and gave out one that's all right i'll come back to all right yeah don't worry about it but just i really believe that the life as currently lived is exactly what i needed to experience to have it because I don't know how my life will be defined will it be defined by one moment or will it be defined by the longevity of you know a sustained level of doing good things over a long period of time. I don't know how that's going to shake out. But if my life is defined by one moment, let it be that I was selfless in that moment

and that I was sacrificial in that moment and that I extended grace in that moment. Not that I made a ton of money and I'm hiding behind my accolades as an indicator of my inner value. I know right now, if nothing else happens, that I am loved, I am valued, and I have contributed to the betterment of other human beings. I know that. I don't want to die right now because I want to raise my kids and walk my daughter down the aisle. But if I did, I would die

knowing that with the little bit of resource and the natural gifts God gave me, I did my best to maximize them so other people could be blessed. Yeah, that's great. Now, a lot of people in your church and just off the street, I'm assuming, ask you a lot of questions. They come to you for advice. They want feedback. They want support on their challenge in their life, right? What is the question you wish all these people would be asking you? Is there one question that you think that would be the best for them as opposed to all these needs they have,

but they should be really thinking about something else? If so, what would that be? That's good. Let me get some water on this. Can get some water let me think lubricated you know that's premium alkalized water there's this vegan water christine it's just gmo gluten-free um it's a question they should be asking i think the first question that they should be asking is am i loved i think that's the foundational question when you come to the revelation that who you are as you are

is okay that you are loved it changes the dynamic because a lot of religious thought is based around you are broken. You need to be fixed as opposed to you are loved. And there are things you need to know so that you can unlock the potential of who you are. That's a different mindset because one is rooted in brokenness, which leads to shame, which leads to guilt, which leads to the reminders of all the things of yourself that you're not proud of. But the other one says, I start at love. I started, I'm accepted. I started, I am approved. I'm a start. I started, I am accepted in the beloved as scripture says. And so I start from a position of, I am right now loved as I am. And I think people need to ask that question first. Am I loved?

Once they get the revelation that, yes, you are loved, then it says, oh, I can take the pressure off of trying to perform. Oh, I can take the pressure off of trying to figure out where I'm going next. Because I, again, we're talking about in Christian thought for people who come to me as a pastor. And I'm localizing it to that, to the faith community, because there may be those who don't subscribe to faith and that's okay. But for those who come to me, my first thing is the first question you need to ask is, am I loved? And then once you realize that you are, everything else changes. Once you know you're loved by an eternal God that created you, who sacrificed for you to live an abundant life, here's what happens. Your value increases, your self-awareness increases,

your strength to make the tough decisions increases. So you won't stay in a broken relationship forever because you don't need to. I don't have to stay this big to prove something or to nurse my addictions or my broken areas. I don't need to. I'm loved. And does it happen overnight? No. But it is the question that I even have to wrestle with because I told you I struggle with daddy issues. Am I accepted?

Am I approved? Am I loved because I told you I struggle with daddy issues. Am I accepted? Am I approved? Am I loved? That's where I struggle. So I medicate that pain through food. I medicate that pain. It feels good, man. It does. I could eat donuts all day.

That's the second donut reference, bro. You have any vegan gluten-free donuts around here? We got some vegan bars or something. Come on, man. I'll take one. But I think that's the first question. and then the second one is what's my purpose what am I here for there's so many people struggling with what life is like what am I supposed to be doing there are people who get a degree in a certain

field and then they end up not wanting to work in that field how well I don't know what the percentages are but so many people change their major midstream. Why? Because you're still developing. People are searching for purpose at this point because we realize that the accumulation of things doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What's your purpose?

My purpose is to be a bridge, to let people know that they are loved by God, that what Jesus did is not localized to a single group of individuals who think they have the market on faith and religion, but that God loved the world that he gave his son. And this is the life that I've chosen to live, to extend grace to every human being. Every human being has equal value. Every human being has the right to self-determination. Every human being has autonomy. And in that, you love, you celebrate, you cover, you extend grace, you forgive, you fight for those who can't fight for themselves. And I think my purpose is not talking about it

it's living it yeah and I've had to learn how to do that I've had to learn how to connect with those who may not see life through my lens I've had to learn how to see other perspectives that's what life is and I've learned how much god loves other people by looking at how much love he's extended to me because i know me and i know the areas where i fail yeah and in myself in my own humanity i don't deserve to hold a microphone but i've been gifted and i humbly say that i've been gifted to share that and it keeps you humble it keeps you real low to the ground you can always tell somebody who's close to God by the way they treat people they don't think they need when you're around somebody who can talk down to

people and think they're better than people and they say they're an individual of faith, you know that they haven't matured. You know that it's a lie because when you've encountered God, you love everybody. You have grace for everybody because you know what he had grace for you in. And I think that for me is my purpose, that you are loved, you are accepted, and that what Jesus did finished it. But also make it fun. Life doesn't have to be deep, man. I like to laugh. That's why you're so effective on stage and when you preach because you're bringing humor. You're bringing not just this serious darkness all the time.

It's like you have to be a certain way. It's like we can have fun and play and be joyful and expressive because that's what life's all about. That's what life's all about. And it brings a lightheartedness to things. Obviously, there's moments for being serious and being in tune to the moment, but I think we're here to play. I believe that we're here to play and have fun and be childlike until we're dead

and express that childlike you know experience that's what brings creativity joy passion uh you know it's what brings people together i think so i love that i'm glad you're doing it man uh a few few final questions for you one is what are I'm grateful for. The revelation that the validation I need doesn't exist outside my home. I'm grateful for my family. Here's why I was in Cape Town, South Africa a week and a half ago. I'm sitting looking at whales in the ocean from my balcony. Very sweet.

And it was unbelievable. I'm looking at Lion's Head Mountain. Table Mountain is behind me. The Twelve Apostle Peaks are behind me. The most beautiful natural scenery I've ever seen. And I was as lonely as I've ever been in my life a week and a half ago a week and a half ago because my wife was in la and my children were in texas and i said i don't want to experience these things without my family anymore this is a stunning revelation for me because I was 37

when I got married. So I know how to be alone. I didn't have success in relationships. Relationships were my blind spot. And so I didn't, I don't know how to stay. I know how to leave. And so 400,000 miles I flew last year, 350 the year before while still being full time at Lakewood wow you're machined I guess or I was running from something so then I realized I want to be home

now I'm preaching at one of the biggest conferences in the world and it was a wonderful experience but it was there was a part of it that was hollow because the people that matter the most weren't there yeah and that's when i knew i was growing up because in the early parts of my marriage i would get on a plane and wouldn't think twice didn't care didn't know that it had an emotional impact on my wife that i would leave didn't know

that sometimes she'd be afraid to be in the house by herself. Then we had our son about a year and four months into the marriage. And so now I'm traveling full time and she's in this big old house with a little baby and she's nervous because people have been breaking in around the neighborhood and I'm like, you're going to be fine. That's very dismissive of her emotions and of a baby. So over time now, what didn't matter now absolutely matters. And so I told my wife, I'll never be gone that long again without y'all. That's a huge awakening for a man that lived isolated and emotionally disconnected. And I think a part of me wanted to keep distance uh from my wife and kids just in case i failed just in case i fail ah just in case i mess up like my dad did

don't get too close to me so that way it won't be as hard painful yeah now it's like y'all get close to me because I am going to fail, but we're going to stay together. Yeah, that's cool. You know, so that to me has been the biggest thing that my family means more to me

than opportunity. Wow. The book is called? I Am Number Eight. I Am Number Eight. You can get it anywhere online, Barnes & Noble, all that good stuff, right?

Yeah, man. What's your website? JohnGrayWorld.com. JohnGrayWorld.com, G-R-A-Y, correct? And you got all your books and everything there, I'm assuming, as well, right? This is my first book. First one. First of many to come.

Thank you. I received that one, buddy. Yeah, man. And I've got other resources of me preaching on there. Of course. I think links to music, because I sing, too. You're amazing. This guy Of course. I think links to music because I sing too. You're amazing. This guy's unbelievable.

If you want to hear him sing Whitney Houston sometime. Bro, I'm finishing my record up tomorrow. Shut up. My new record. Here in LA? Yeah. Dude, I got to hear it. Oh, I'm going to give you a pre-release copy.

I would have been. All right. I'm not lying. I've seen a lot of speakers. You're one of the best entertainers that can land a message who is funny and can sing and can dance and do it all. Thank you, bro. And rap and poems and preach.

I was just blown away, man. Thank you, man. I was like, I got to get you on sometime, so I'm glad we got you on now. Imagine for 60 seconds that this microphone is connected to every person in the world. And you've got 60 seconds. They all put on headphones, and there's only one direct line from them, and it's to you.

And you've got 60 seconds to share a message that they will all hear right now. It'll be translated in their language. They'll understand it if they're two years old, they're a baby, whatever. They're all going to understand what you say. And you'll only get the opportunity to say it to them once. What would you say? Your life is not accidental. You were created on purpose, with purpose. Every painful place, every broken moment, every closed door door every opportunity that looks like it missed every

person that ever hurt abused misused you were actually allowed into your space to give you a heart of compassion love humility and grace for those around you. You have a purpose greater than your pain, and you have a future greater than your past. God created you in love, and you are loved by he who made you. And your life and your legacy will outlast your years on this earth. Drop the mic. I like it. Here it is. I would ask your three truths, but I think you covered a lot of the good stuff in there. So before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, John, for your incredible openness, your love, all that you give to the world, your ability to be aware of everything that you get to work on and not act like you're holier than thou with

everyone, and your commitment to constantly making an impact on the world, but also on the most important people, which is yourself and your family. So I think you're an incredible example of how we should all be living. Thank you for that, man. Yeah, man. Thank you. And one year from today, I'm going to hold you to it. One year.

That's one of the missing elements, right? One year. Krispy Kreme party on me. I will have a box of Krispy Kremes with you. After the weigh-in. After the weigh-in. After the weigh-in. Don't let me hear one G.

239.9. Final question. And again, make sure you guys watch the show on Oprah on OWN, which depending on when this comes out, you'll be able to watch the replays online or you'll be able to search for it. Get the book, johngrayworld.com as well. The final question is,

what is your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is extending yourself to others so that they can become everything they were created to be. My greatness won't be defined by my achievements, but by the achievements of those who came into contact with me. John Gray. Ohio love, baby.

Ohio love. Ohio love. Thanks, man. There you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this one with Pastor John Gray and the face of the Oprah Winfrey Network's new show, The Book of John Gray. Make sure to go watch the show.

It's pretty powerful. I've watched a few of them so far. Really love what he's up to. And check out his new book, I Am Number Eight. So excited about what he's up to. Make sure to his new book, I Am Number 8. So excited about what he's up to. Make sure to follow him on Instagram and Twitter and all those places online. Tag me on Instagram at Lewis Howes. Share this message out over there on Twitter and Facebook.

It's lewishowes.com slash 488. Again, lewishowes.com slash 488. Share it out with your friends if you felt this would inspire them or give them some lessons or teachings to help them unlock their inner greatness. You're going to get a 20% off discount on your underwear. You'll be donating to an amazing cause. Go there right now. I'm telling you they're the best pair of underwear I've ever had. MeUndies.com.

I love you guys so much. telling you they're the best pair of underwear I've ever had. MeUndies.com slash greatness now. I love you guys so much. We are on a mission to impact and inspire 100 million people, to show them how to live a fuller life, doing what they love, making a full-time income, and making an impact on the people around them. And you're a part of this process. It's all started with one episode about four and a half years ago. We're almost getting close to 500 episodes, guys. I can't even believe it, how far we've come together and where we're heading together.

Make sure to continue to share these out with your friends if you find them helpful and inspiring in any way, as that's what continues to build the movement. Over 2 million downloads a month right now. It continues to grow all because of you. We've got some big people coming up, big topics, so pumped, and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Outro Music