The School of Greatness - 50 Simon Sinek: Why Leaders Eat Last

Episode Date: February 4, 2014

Simon Sinek is the mastermind behind Start with Why. His latest work, Leaders Eat Last, is another masterpiece on the topic of leadership. On this episode of the School of Greatness podcast, Lewis Howes and Simon go in-depth on the most pressing concerns for those seeking to create amazing, un-paralleled results with their lives and teams.

This is episode number 50 with Simon Sinek. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

What is up, greats? And thanks so much for tuning in today. We've got a special guest on today. His name is Mr. Simon Sinek. And some of you may recognize him from his book, Start With Why. And he is one of the most watched TED Talk speakers of all time with his video called How Great Leaders Inspire Action. And if you haven't seen that video, make sure to check that out. It's linked up on the show notes over at lewishouse.com.

But I'm very excited about this episode because we're talking about Leaders Eat Last is for those who want to feel they and their work matter and for those who want to inspire others to feel the same. I'm very excited to talk about this. We dive into a few very important things. One, towards the very end, which kind of stumped Simon for a second, and I'm excited to have you guys hear about it. What I really wanted to learn about,

we go into a lot of the stuff on leadership and why leaders need last and the importance of this, how that all began, where it came from. We talk about ego and conceit, where most people get it wrong about ego and leadership. But then towards the end, we talk about leadership and family and marriage and kids. And I asked him an important question. I thought to ask him, do you think you can achieve a huge mission in life and change the world and inspire the world

with a family while taking care of a family, raising a family, and being there for one other person? Can you fully lead the world on a huge mission? And his answer was pretty interesting. So make sure to stick around all the way to the very end to hear what Simon says. I'm very excited about this one. And let's go ahead and jump right in. What's up guys? Very excited about today's episode. We've got Simon Sinek

in the studio. What's up man? How you doing? Doing great. And this is actually the first time we've met in person. It is. Although we might've met at Summit Series a few years ago on the ship or something like that. I think I remember you amongst the other thousand people I met. Exactly. But I've obviously

heard of you from your hugely successful TED Talk which everyone talks about which we talk about Start With Why and I remember watching it and I was like,

wow, man, that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. A few years ago whenever that was and I think it's one of the top 10 or five most watched

TED Talks of all time which is pretty powerful. And I think it's one of the top 10 or five most watched TED Talks of all time, which is pretty powerful. I'm assuming there's been hundreds of them, especially TEDx Talks. So congratulations on all of your success.

Thank you. And you've got a new book out, which is Leaders Eat Last. Indeed. And I want to talk about this. Okay. Because when you go on an airplane, which you go on many,

they always say, make sure to put your own mask on first before you assist others. Now, why do you say leaders should in essentially put their mask on second and save someone, sacrifice your life, the most important miracle is you in the world and sacrifice it to give to others.

That's not quite what it means. It doesn't mean like, you know, give up your life necessarily, though sometimes it does, so that others may survive. But it's when it counts to sacrifice your interests so that others may survive or so others may succeed

that's what it's about and and sort of the closest analogy i can i can give you is like a parent right a parent feeds their child before they feed themselves now you would say that's ridiculous you have to eat you have to be fed if you're not fed then you won't be able to raise that's kind of not how it works right we feed our children first and uh the title actually came about um while i was doing the research and i had a meeting with a three-star general in the marine corps and was doing a bunch of research with the marines and asked him you know what makes the marines so good at what they do? And he said, officers eat last. And it's not just an idea, it's true. If you go to any chow hall on any Marine base anywhere in the world,

you will see them line up in rank order, most junior person first. And it's not in any rule book and no one tells them they have to do it. Really? It's just what happens and that last point as well um i don't know i can't speak i can't speak for the army i only know about this from the marines marines only got you um they may but i just don't know right um and so the like

again it's not any rule book and it's nobody tells them to do it that's just what happens it's just how it done it's just how it's done and the reason is for how they view the concept of leadership, which is we very often in the business world see leadership as something to achieve. And we see it as the person in charge. They view leadership as an honor and a responsibility to others. responsibility to others so for example if you visit ocs which is um officer um what is it officer i always forget it officer cadet school no whatever it is it's where the ocs is where they select their officers yeah train their officers you will you'll never hear this language you will never hear these marines say i am a leader of marines i believe i have what it takes to be a leader of marines i aspire to be a good leader of Marines, a leader. See, look, I even screwed up. You'll never hear them say, I am a leader. I aspire to be a good leader. I believe I have what it takes to be a

leader. You'll never hear those words. What you hear is, I'm a leader of Marines. I believe what I have it, what it takes to be a leader of Marines. I aspire to be a good leader of Marines. In other words, they don't even say, I am a leader. Like we in the business world say, I'm a leader. In the Marines, they say, I'm a leader of Marines. That's just how they say it. In other words, even in their vernacular, the concept of leadership is a responsibility to others.

And it's an amazing thing. Here's the best part, especially when this happens in the field. And I've heard of stories where when this happens in the field and i know i've heard of stories where this has happened in the field where um whoever's in charge eats last and actually goes without food because he had his many first and and then they get out into the field and all the men will bring a little bit of food and make sure that their leader gets fed wow and that's what happens when our leaders look after us, we look after our leaders.

And that becomes the symbiotic relationship. Interesting. So what do you think it takes to become a leader then? What type of qualities do they possess? You know, I love how everybody writes a book or an article about sort of the qualities of a leader. You have to have charisma. You have to have, you know, vision.

You have to have, yeah, sure. Some are better than others and those kinds of things you know some of those things i think are very superficial um the depth of leadership um i believe there's only one quality um and and that's courage it's the courage to put yourself after others it's the courage to sacrifice um when your life might be more comfortable more profitable easier better and yet when it counts you choose to sacrifice those things so that others may succeed or gain um just just like being a parent you. If you don't have kids, kids are really expensive. If you choose not,

employees are really expensive. If you choose not to have children, you can get a better car, you can get a bigger house, you can go on better vacations, you can get a nicer hotel room. More time. More time.

But if you choose to have a child, it makes all those things more difficult. You can't be as selfish. And there's certain sacrifices. And I think when, sort of it's funny, makes all those things more difficult. You can't be as selfish. And there's certain sacrifices. Yeah. And I think, I think when, sort of it's funny,

when the decision to have a baby is the wrong decision. Having the baby is the easy part. You know? It's the 18 years. It's the fun part. Right. Nobody should ever decide if they want to have a baby or not.

You know, what they should is decide if they want to raise a child. And it's the same for leadership. You don't decide to be the leader. You don't decide you want to be in charge. It's do you decide that you're going to commit to a lifetime of service to others? That's kind of what it boils down to.

And that's why not everybody's qualified to be a leader. It's not that everybody's... It's nothing to do with intelligence or charisma. It's because that decision to put others before yourself, that's hard. You can get your head cut off. I mean, if you speak out for the good of others, you could get fired.

But what you might do is give courage to others to then to follow what you started. But you might lose your head. Yeah, exactly. It's tough. I think about kids every now and then, and I feel like I'm too selfish right now to have kids. Exactly.

I love what I'm doing in my life and my time and my energy. It doesn't mean I don't want kids. It's nothing to do with children. It's nothing to do with whether you want kids or don't want kids. It's that you don't want to raise a child right now. Exactly. Exactly. The energy, I mean, I think it would be the most amazing thing in the world.

Yeah. They say the best birth control is other people's children. Yeah. Are hearing screaming babies on airplanes is the best birth control? Right. It's like I love children everywhere except on planes. Now, I want to talk to you about a couple things. Sure.

One, vulnerability. out a couple things sure one vulnerability do you believe a leader needs to be vulnerable in order to be a powerful leader and i know you talk about you're either a leader or you're not a leader right there's no such thing as a good leader well i mean look the of course there are variations in leadership but i've sort of given up the for the large part this idea of you know good and bad leaders you know i think everybody has the capacity for leadership everybody and by the for the large part this idea of good and bad leaders. I think everybody has the capacity for leadership, everybody. And by the way, leadership has nothing to do with rank or position.

You can be the top of the organization and not be a leader, and you can be at the bottom of the organization and absolutely be a leader. It's the choice to look after the person to the left of you and the person to the right of you. In an organization, if you also have authority, that's what rank person to the left of you and the person to the right of you at uh in a in an organization if you're also have authority that's what rank gives you then it means you can look after others at

scale right but it has nothing to do you know with leadership um per se but i believe i believe everyone has the capacity for leadership um but not everybody um has the courage to choose to do it, which is why there are few good leaders. There are few real leaders. Right, right. Now, are those great leaders that you talk about or that you believe in, do they express the qualities of vulnerability often, or do you think it's showing weakness? No, no.

There's a great irony, right is which is more than anything else the home the um homo sapiens of the social you know the human being we're social animals and more than anything we we crave the feeling of belonging we crave the feeling of being safe amongst our own um you know this is why you know um if you go to an event and you're by yourself and everyone's a stranger there and you sort of feel uncomfortable but if you see one familiar face that you've met this person before and you may not even like them you may not even know them but you recognize them you will make them you will make a beeline to them and be like hey you know for this very simple reason is it makes you feel safer yeah right um uh you know you you very often see neighborhoods form around, you know, common experience or common

backgrounds or, you know, race or religion, things like this is because we want to be around people who quote unquote kind of get us, you know, it makes us feel safer. And so this is the core of why homo sapiens, human beings have been successful as a species which is um when we form trust when we when we form trust we're willing to fall asleep at night with the absolute confidence that someone else will watch out for danger for us right interesting right and if we don't trust somebody then we won't fall asleep at night and ultimately the entire organization is weaker because of it right so when we each other, we're more likely to work together to protect ourselves from outside dangers

or seize opportunities. And does this vulnerability create trust? Correct, because when we willingly demonstrate vulnerability, what we're demonstrating is trust. So let's just stick with the falling asleep analogy. That I would fall asleep demonstrates to you, my tribe member, my colleague, that I'm putting myself in a position of great peril, vulnerability. I cannot defend myself.

I will be asleep because I know that you look after me, right? And the same goes for leadership. I was walking down Pennsylvania Avenue with a guy from Palestine, true story. And we stopped in front of the White House and we're standing there looking at the White House and he says to me, the president of the United States lives there. And I'm like, it's the White House. He's like, no, no, no.

The president of the United States lives right there. What he was saying is in democracies, we trust our leaders. And more importantly, our leaders trust us. Yes, we all know there's tons of security around the White House, but it's not visible. There's no razor wire. There's no guys walking around with submachine guns. There's no signs that say, you know, if you come here after 6 p.m., shoot to kill order. You know, like it doesn't, you could actually climb the fence. I mean, it's not a very daunting fence. And it's, in other words, the leader of our country

lets us come right up to his house where he actually lives. Like it's not a fake. He actually lives there, right? And we let him, they let us come up to the house. If you go to a dictatorship, you know, the people aren't allowed

within miles of the leader's house, the quote unquote leader, you know, the dictator's house. You know, there is there is razor wire there are tanks there are guys with machine guns and and so there is no expression of vulnerability right um so yes it is absolutely essential for leaders to demonstrate vulnerability because it that vulnerability must be mutual not only if you fall asleep will i promise to protect Not only if you fall asleep, will I promise to protect you, but if I fall asleep, I trust that you will protect me. And so this goes not only physically, but also emotionally. The leader who acts like they have all the answers, by the way, they don't, you know, leaves no opportunity for others to help. And so people don't. And it's not because people are difficult or don't want to help. It's because they've been given no opportunity to because apparently the guy knows it all.

And this was one of the biggest lessons I learned in my own life, which is when I struggled most in my life was when I thought I had to have all the answers because I was in charge, quote unquote. And if I didn't, I had to pretend that I did. I had to demonstrate confidence even if I didn't have any right the reality is the total opposite it's when you admit that you don't know something that other people will come to your aid not because you're vulnerable and but not because they want to intimidate you it's because you said you didn't know it and they do and they're like i know that i can totally do that for you like you can you know if you pretend that you know it it's not that people don't want to help. It's that they just didn't think you needed it. And so the opportunity to express vulnerability is paramount to the building of trust.

It doesn't happen overnight, like any relationship. I mean, think about boy meets girl, girl meets boy. You know, first, you know, you got for a drink. And everybody sort of shows off and, you know, puts their best face on. And then it's as you get to know the person so the walls come down a little bit you know the fears come out you know the insecurities come out and the things you don't like start to come out and you know and and it's and it's and in time you start to build a relationship the relationship between leader and follower and follower and leader is exactly the same thing it is a relationship and it is it is it takes time to nurture and look after so how does someone in the,

and it's born out of love, love, love. I mean, and I'm not being, I'm not being cheesy. No, I completely understand.

I mean, there's an amazing piece of footage. So there's a soldier who was just recently awarded the congressional medal of honor, which as we know is the highest medal in our land. He was embedded with a company of marines and something very bad happened you know the marines were overrun and he was carrying out the wounded to to get them out of out of the danger and one of the medevac helicopters that came in to take away the wounded sheer coincidence one of the medics had a GoPro camera on his helmet.

So there's this footage of this soldier carrying a Marine on his shoulder, lays him on the floor of the helicopter, bends down and kisses him on the forehead, and then walks away and goes back to rescue more it's all caught on you can watch it on youtube wow right now that's not love i don't know what it is right he bends down and kisses him on the forehead as if to say i gotcha we gotcha you know it's like you know it's what a parent does to their child they kiss them to say it's all right it's all right you know

when somebody's in the hospital when someone's in in pain, we touch them. We put our hand on their hand. We put our hand on their leg and we, you know, we rub them and we say, don't worry, you'll be okay. Like that sense of touch, that is the greatest expression of love ever there, if there ever was. And this opportunity, this demonstration of vulnerability, this is a soldier in combat. You know, most people don't realize this, but in the military, crying is just fine it's just fine you know it's they're they're i mean and the marines will call it off and they call it the intangibles but you know every now and then you will get a marine who will admit that the feeling they have is love it's brotherly love it's sisterly love it's love for each other and it's love for core it's love for my brothers and sisters and my family i mean that's that's what it is it's love it is it is the

feeling and i think that you have to build love you have to earn love you have to work towards love for the most successful profitable and by profitable i don't necessarily mean money but most sort of greatest opportunity for success relationships you know you you work towards love when you meet someone you you don't get it immediately and there's nothing you can say or do that will make it happen you earn it over time and you will screw things up on the way and it is hard and it is hard and it is hard but if you're both willing at some point in some strange weird way it's as if you like wake up and press a button it's as if you sort of like hit this belief button and instantaneously like oh my god you wake up and

we're like i i'm in love i don't even know how it happened or how i got here but i'm in love and then you find yourself being willing to do the most crazy irrational things because you are in love in other words irrational things like give up your comfort give up your safety give up your food country move across the country give up your food and eat last. Yeah. It is something that evolves. You'll do anything. Yeah. So the concept of eating last is not something that happens overnight. It is something that you work towards because it's based on trust, right?

So yes, vulnerability is king. Okay. I want to think this in many places, but I'm going to start with ego and love. Mm-hmm. So some people may think about leaders who have a big ego and there's a lot of leaders who do have a big ego i i think they all do yeah there's nothing wrong with that now there's nothing wrong with that but does that moment defines a great leader as someone who is egotistical believes they have it all figured

out and uh that's not what ego is that's what conceit is okay okay what's the difference between ego then or what is the definition of ego for you is belief in self okay right so it's not bad so if you only have a no uh i think some people look at ego as like a negative that's only because it's it's misused i mean think about it if you have the choice to have someone on your team there's only a finite number of personality types it. If you have the choice to have someone on your team, there's only a finite number of personality types, you know, so you have the choice. There's only three. You can have someone on your team who is not at all confident in their own ability. Or you can have someone who's very confident in their ability and thinks they're better than everyone else. Or you can have someone who's very confident in their ability and doesn't think they're better than everyone else who do you want on your team it's such a stupid question it's so obvious of course you want the person who's confident in their own ability and doesn't think they're better than everyone else right sure because i always want to grow and learn well

that's ego okay okay they have a strong ego what they don't have is conceit gotcha talk to the marines the marines think they are better than everyone else they do not think they're better than other marines okay in other words you a marine wants a marine on their team because he's he was he learned they train self-confidence i mean that's largely what happens in boot camp it's not this whole break them down build them up stuff it's not that what they take is people who are selfish like we all are you know we want to prove that we're good enough and they teach them that they will not succeed without the help of others and they teach who are selfish, like we all are. We want to prove that we're good enough. And they teach them that they will not succeed without the help of others.

And they teach them that they're capable of more than they thought they were. And they learn confidence, but they do not learn conceit. And so, yeah, to be a leader, you have to have ego because you have to have, what you don't want is conceit.

In other words, humility. The greatest definition of humility I ever heard was from Bob Gaylor, you have to have, um, what you don't want is conceit. In other words, humility. Um, the greatest definition of humility I ever heard was from Bob Gaylor, who was the fifth master Sergeant of the air force. And he said, do not confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others, right? So when people say, Oh no, you know, you pay them a compliment. They're like, no, no, that's not, no, you don't. That's, that's meekness. That's faking it. I mean, that, no, that's not, no, you don't, that's meekness. That's faking it. I mean, that's ridiculous. I've met some remarkable leaders whose egos are so outsized, I'm amazed they can fit in the room. Their heads are so big. But when you say, sir, I have an idea,

they go, let's hear it. And they don't want to debunk you and prove themselves right. They genuinely want to hear your ideas even though think even though they think they are so smart they are smart enough to know they don't know everything and they are smart enough to know that it's the solution from someone junior or someone from the outside that may be the thing that they're looking for that they neglected to see these people have huge egos what they lack is conceit and and so yeah i, I believe ego is very important. It's important. Belief in self. Belief in self. And by the way, you hope followers have ego. You hope leaders have ego. You want

everybody to have ego. You want everybody to have self-confidence. You want everybody to believe that they're capable of more than they thought. And by the way, the only way you'll ever learn that you're capable of more than you thought you were is if you have someone who's got your back. A teacher, a parent, a guardian, a leader, a leader a coach a boss it doesn't matter it's someone who said i will not let you fall i will not let you get hurt a parent ride the bicycle i can't do it yes you can i can't do it i will hold the back of the seat and then we turn around and you realize dad's not holding the back of the seat anymore and you realize you're capable of more than you thought you were same in everything it's someone who gave us a

chance because they believed in us they saw something we didn't think we saw um and they let go of the back of the seat and if we fell or if we screwed it up they go try again maybe they let go too soon you know it happens right it's not a perfect science so it's important to have ego to be a powerful leader but it's also important to have ego to be happens right it's not a perfect science so it's important to have ego to be a powerful leader but it's also important to have ego to be anybody okay it's important to be going to be anyone if you want to achieve any goal yeah and uh but to do it with humility yeah okay and by the way i'm saying these things in in i'm speaking idealistically sure obviously we all have our insecurities of course even people with huge egos have their dark sides and have their weaknesses.

Or the biggest insecurities, yeah. You know, and again, it goes back to vulnerability, which is, are those people with the big egos willing to tell you or share? And not with everybody. I don't believe in this, like, put it on YouTube, you know, write a blog about, you know, you can if you want. Very often, it empowers others. I know that when I've expressed the things that I struggle with, you know, people are immensely grateful. I get more responses for those postings because a, it demonstrates I'm human. Like, you know, people build up images of you or you build up an image of yourself that aren't true, but it also demonstrates

that everyone has a capacity to overcome these things. um but you know there are many other things that i don't share publicly but i do share them with people who i trust you care about yeah and and they keep me safe you ask my my team what's your job all of the you know my team who's closest to me they'll all say protect simon and they don't mean from they don't mean from the outside world. They mean I've expressed vulnerability to them. They know what I'm good at. They know what I'm bad at. They know what my Achilles heels are and, and, and they want me to be at my best. So we'll work together. We'll block and tackle, you know, where I'm, where I'm bad at something, somebody will jump in, you know, and, and, and the great irony of it is, is I see my job the same way. My job is to protect them,

to make sure that they can work to their greatest potential, you know, not put them in harm's way, you know, take risks every now and then and let them fail and be okay with that. And like, that's my job. Sure. You know? Why did you get into this work?

I fell into it. I tripped over something and I woke up, you know, like it was an accident. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was an accident. Really? Yeah. Was it an experience or something? There were two significant events. My books are semi-autobiographical.

It's not obvious, but they both are. It's like a Trojan horse. Yeah, pretty much. And that's why I take my work seriously is because it's deeply, deeply, deeply personal. So I can tell you there are two defining events that sort of set me on these, one that set me on the path and one that sort of kicked me in the ass. The first one was where Start With Why came from, right? My story is not that different from many others. I started a small business.

You know, I was doing strategic marketing consultants you know consulting it was great it was exciting and in my fourth year i lost my passion for what i was doing and struggled like you have no idea um i falsely in the u.s this is in the u.s yeah i falsely believed i had to have all the answers and if i didn't i pretended i did you know there's nothing wrong with the quality of work our company did good work we had amazing clients you know by all outside appearances i should have been very happy with my life i was making a living i was my own boss the american dream right um except i hated wake up in the waking up in the morning and i didn't want to do it and i lost confidence in myself and refused to tell anybody which means that nobody came to my aid which made it worse

and uh i was lonely and probably if i had to diagnose myself depressed you know it was a dark period i was paranoid i was convinced i was going to get evicted from my apartment i don't know why but i was you know i just i i became very isolated and there was thank goodness a confluence of events that came together that uh helped me see this pattern, this naturally occurring pattern that exists in biology, that every single organization on the planet, even our own careers, always functions on these three levels,

what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. And that's when I realized I have to have all three. I knew what I did. I could tell you how I did it, but I couldn't tell you why. I became obsessed. And it restored my passion to levels that I'd never experienced before. It just was an amazing and beautiful thing. Once you figured out your why.

Yeah, once I figured out my why. And more importantly, helped others how to figure out theirs. So as we do and we discover something beautiful, we tell our friends. So I told my friends. I mean, that's what we do. You see a great movie, you tell your friends to go see your, you know, it's like, that's what you do. So I told my friends. And my friends started making crazy life changes.

My friends invited me to their homes to share it with their friends. I would charge people a hundred bucks to find their wives, just doing it on the side. And I just kept getting more invitations and it just sort of grew very organically. And because I believed in it and because it was so personal to me, it was, it brought me unbelievable joy to do it. And you know, everything about it, you know, I got invited to do this TEDx talk, um, the 2011, 2009 yeah and i found out you know it was it was becoming popular on youtube which um was nice and i found out it was put on

ted.com the week it was put on ted.com i mean like i didn't have any like nobody called me to tell me you know um and i never expected it to grow as fast as it did there's no marketing plan behind it there's no social media strategy behind it you know the reason it's it's spread so far and wide is because of the generosity of others it's because somebody chose to send it to somebody who they believed it would resonate right um and that's sort of one of the lessons i learned early with this concept of why which is you show up to give you know so many people to show up show up to give. So many people show up to, and I've done a few TEDx's, and so I sort of meet the people who are there.

So many people show up for themselves because of the prestige or because they know that it'll boost their careers, which it does. They use it as a calling card to sell something. There's a lot of selfish motivations that go into these things especially now because it is such a powerful medium yeah um and it's really hard to still show up and say it doesn't matter i'm here for you i'm here to give and it wasn't about the audience it was just about those 35 50 people in the room and you know i

always try to tell people like if you go look at my ted talk the video quality is terrible there's like a mic yeah the microphone is like making noise at the beginning they actually change my mic in midstream and yet it becomes one of the most popular ted talks of all time in other words it's not about don't worry about the powerpoint yeah it's fine yeah like so you missed the page the end is not it's like it's okay you know and so it's it's terribly imperfect which i kind of love um but i'm i'm fully aware that the only reason that i enjoy any success is because of the generosity of others that's all so that was the first watershed event that sent me on this path um which was this darkness that i had to overcome and by the way i did not overcome it by myself it was the the love of close friends who came to me and said,

you're not okay. And we don't know what's wrong, but we got your back. How long were you depressed for? I mean, these things, you fall into them. You don't sort of trip into them. You sort of just slow. So I can tell you without a doubt, it was probably three months at least. I can remember September to December 05 pretty vividly.

The second event came in August of 2011. So here I am, sort of this whole why thing is moving fast. And I had the opportunity to go to Afghanistan with our United States Air Force. And everything went wrong on that trip. I remember hearing the story. It was a very intense trip and everything went wrong. And it was the experience I had there

that punched me in the face and really taught me what fulfillment means and where it comes from. And that kind of set me on the journey for this next book, this next story, this next chapter in my life. You know, all of my books are incomplete, you know, because they're stages of a journey, you know. And, you know, this sort of picks up where Start With Why leaves off,

and it's not finished. I don't know if I'll ever get to the next stage but it's incomplete right um but uh you know i i learned it hit me in the face and i became obsessed with understanding why why would these remarkable people trust each other with their lives why would they give their lives like who does that you know who volunteers the possibility of losing your life you have a family of kids so that the guy to the left of you and the guy to the right of you goes home to his or her kids and husband and wife you know it's like i didn't understand it and my initial conclusion was they're just better people that was my initial conclusion they're just better than us and the

concept of service in the military attracts them i don't know you know and the more i started to study and the more i started to learn i realized it wasn't the people it was the environment there's certain environments that can be created in which the natural reaction so we are reactive animals if you put us in the right environment you put us in any environment we will react to our environments you know that's who we are and so you can take a good you can take a good person and put them in a caustic environment with toxic leadership and those people are capable of horrible things right right like some of the things that happen you know you can you can be dramatic and talk about nazi germany or you can be less dramatic and talk about you know goldman sachs but you know in the investment banks the fact that some of these bankers were capable of making decisions that often knowingly weakened an economy, and ironically their own companies, they terribly, terribly, terribly selfish behaviors.

It's not because they're bad people. It's because the environments in which they work, the natural biological reaction to the environments is selfishness, paranoia, and cynicism. When we are in healthy environments, the natural reaction is trust and cooperation. And so that's what I learned, which is more often than not, those in the military find themselves in the right kind of environments in which trust and cooperation naturally thrive. trust and cooperation naturally thrive. Most corporate environments, strangely, most corporate environments are not. And this is not some case study thing.

It's not like I went around and looked at the best companies. The way I came to this realization was I went back to the Paleolithic era and said, okay, Homo sapien has only been on this planet for 50,000 years. Why did we survive and all the other hominids die? We coexisted with some of them. What is it that we were capable of or what did we possess? And it's not just our bigger brains, you know? Punch a guy in the face with a big brain, he's the one who falls over, you know? So it's like there could have been very strong animals that could have overwhelmed us, but they didn't, you know? And one of the main reasons we've survived and thrived is because we're social, we work together we're tribal yeah we are naturally tribal animals and what i

learned was that the natural environments that need to exist for us to trust and cooperate and and and overcome the dangers that threaten us and seize the opportunities are the exact same conditions that exist in great organizations and um and that's why they trust and cooperate so it's all environmental now what's your thoughts on emotional intelligence how important is it for a leader to be emotionally intelligent and how they respond to fears you know whatever may be anxiety stress to overcome yeah uh so i would i would call emotional intelligence something different okay right so let's talk about iq like sort of intelligence intelligence right i would equate intelligence with speaking right i'm going to tell you smart things right look how smart i am right don't get

me wrong really valuable yeah you kind of want smart people to tell you smart things. We're really glad that sort of Marie Curie kind of told us what she thought, you know? It's like, we're kind of glad that Alfred Nobel said something, you know? So there's nothing wrong with speaking, right? But intelligence, I equate to speaking, right? EQ, emotional intelligence, I equate to listening, right?

And so effective communication which is what we as social animals require is a combination of speaking and listening now we're all pretty good at speaking and we all like to speak um but you really we really have to learn to listen and listening is not the same as hearing. Listening is not even hearing all the words that are spoken. What they're not saying. Right. Listening is working hard to understand the meaning of what is being spoken.

And so when you talk about fear, anxiety, and all of these other things, that's what listening is. And I think effective leaders learn to listen. They learn to listen. They learn to hear what individuals or a group. This is, I think, where Steve Jobs' genius was. It's not that he was able to see the future. It's that he listened, right? It's that he was able to hear that people struggled with their technology. And he realized that if technology is to really be valuable in our lives, then we have to adapt the technology to fit the way we live our lives and not change

the way we live our lives to fit the technology. It's ridiculous. You should have to learn an entirely new language to use a PC. Why don't we make the PC fit the way we naturally think and do things? You know, which eventually Microsoft copied and called Windows, you know, that, you know, it was ridiculous that we couldn't even work the phones and you had to read a manual to use your phone. There's too many things. In other other words it's telling us that we have to change the way we live our lives to fit the technology he said one button okay they changed the technology to fit our lives he listened yeah it's it's called brilliant active listening um he was a brilliant listener you know for all his bombast he was a brilliant listener um and i think all good leaders are um

there's a great story of what listening means. Bob Chapman, this story is not in the book, but Bob Chapman is in the book. The CEO of a company in St. Louis. The company is called Barry Way Miller. Amazing company, amazing company. The people trust each other and look after each other. It's just the most incredible thing.

Anyway, Bob Chapman tells this story of how he learned what listening is. And he and his wife are having a baby and she calls down to him, Bob, come up, I want to ask you what you think of the wallpaper I chose for the nursery. Well, Bob, wanting to be a good listener, wanting to be a good husband,

turns off the game, you know. Good, it's good. He doesn't doesn't you know he doesn't scream out come down you know he gets up from his chair and goes upstairs repeats to himself what he's been asked tell me what you think of the wallpaper i'm going to be a good husband he walks in she holds up the wallpaper and says what do you think of the wallpaper i've chosen and he says um I don't like it, being honest. And she throws the paper at him. She throws the roll of wallpaper at him because he wasn't listening.

What he failed to hear was she was never asking what he thought of the wallpaper. What she was asking is, do you think I'm qualified to be the mother of our child? And he said, no, exactly. Because when somebody does that they say you know do i know what the right decisions are for our baby that's what that's what she's asking in this period of insecurity right and so what he should have done is held her close and said can you

believe we're having a baby i love you so much and then the next day say can we talk about the wallpaper? That's listening, right? That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So he got it wrong. And we're, you know, a lot of us are bad. And here's one of the greatest things. Here's one of the easiest tricks for listening. And again, listening is not repeating back what you heard.

You know, listening is understanding the motivation of why it was said in the first place, right? I like that. So I'll tell you a true story. So so i was i spoke at a large military event where there are what they call a rainbow force in the audience so members of all the different services all different uniforms in the audience and i told a story in fact it was the afghanistan story and there was a soldier who stood up and he was pretty senior as a colonel and sort of kind of went at me a little bit and i realized he

misunderstood something i said and so i attempted to clarify and he went at me again and and i attempted to clarify and he wouldn't let me and it started to get uncomfortable for me and it started to get pretty uncomfortable for the whole audience right and you know sort of eventually the event ended and the the general the general who invited me came up to me and said, I'm so sorry. You know, you're our guest. That shouldn't have happened. I will deal with it, he said. And I told the general, please don't deal with it.

What I want you to do is go ask that soldier if he's okay. In other words, the single greatest asset you have as a listener is empathy, right? So he didn't go yell at him and said who do you are what do you think you're doing embarrassing me embarrassing us like do you you know why did you do that he went up to the soldier afterwards i talked i talked to the general later he went up to the soldier and said are you okay how's your family and the soldier revealed that he was in he was in theater just a week before and saw some horrible things, and I touched a nerve. He was extremely apologetic as opposed to being defensive.

Right. And expressed how he was out of line instead of defending his actions and was grateful to that general for having concern for him. And so the way to listen is to have empathy. Like, what is the reason they're telling me this? That is powerful. It's much more powerful. And so, so by the way it goes both ways you know like our our leaders our bosses need to have empathy for us so when we screw up you don't fire somebody who has performance issues you ask them what's going on in their lives you know at the same time if our bosses berate us and yell us yell at us we don't say that guy's a. We go to our bosses and say, you okay?

Right? Empathy. Empathy is pretty much the only motivation for anything. That's powerful. Yeah. And again, it's really hard because sometimes people say things to you that are hurtful or personal or mean or out of line. You know? Do you have the capacity for empathy?

Do you have the capacity to hear what they're saying and express concern for the reason they may be saying it? Now, sometimes it's a personality clash. Sometimes there is nothing, you know? But leaders have empathy. That's what earns them the right to be called leaders. And again, remember, never confuse leadership with rank. It has nothing to do with it. And again, remember, never confuse leadership with rank. Has nothing to do with it.

Interesting. And the best leaders are followers. The best leaders are followers. And the best followers are leaders, right? Think about it. Great leaders follow something. Martin Luther King believed that there is a higher law. He believed that there was the laws of man

and the laws of a higher authority. And not until the laws of man were consistent with the laws of a higher authority would we live in a of man were consistent with the laws of a higher authority would we live in a just world he was a follower of the higher authority sure that's what made him the leader because he chose to follow wow right you know gandhi believed in a higher law we chose he chose to follow and so when we talk about servant leaders what we mean is it's not that they're here to serve per se. I mean, yes, it does. But what it means is they are in service. They are servants.

They are servants to a higher cause. To a purpose. We call it a vision, a purpose, religion, a spirit. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Something, yeah. But it provides guidance. I mean, think how we describe our own leaders. Why do you follow that?

He provides guidance. He provides direction. He tells us his vision. Well, what do you think the leaders are getting it from not from nothing right right um that's why vision in a company is so important because what are the leaders following right and without the vision they follow the results they follow the daily machinations of what and how yeah they follow the daily machinations of us of a stock value right that's what you're following like that's what giving your life purpose and you find i mean there's great research on this stanley milgram uh one of the paramount researchers on this that

when we have a sense of a higher authority be it a vision a purpose uh whatever it is um we're more likely to make the quote-unquote right. When we don't have a sense of a higher authority, we're more likely to listen to the authority figure that's standing in front of us. And so if you think about a lot of CEOs that quote unquote lack vision, in other words, nothing to follow, who do they listen to? Wall Street. Well, isn't that ironic that these people who call themselves leaders are actually doing as they're told by somebody else. So the best leaders are also followers, which means the best followers, the people devoted to a cause bigger than themselves become the leaders. So what are you following? I wake up every single day to inspire people to do

what inspires them. I fundamentally believe that fulfillment is a right and not a privilege. And I find it inadequate that only a few people get to wake up every morning and say, I love my job or I love my life. I find that terribly unfair. And it's not a lottery. It's not for the lucky few who get to discover it or find it. We are all entitled. We have a right to be fulfilled in life. And so I have a vision of a world in which the vast majority wake up every single day, inspired to go to work and come home every day fulfilled by the work that they do and feel safe while they're at work. It's not complicated. Um, um, and, and it takes great leaders to get us there and anyone can volunteer to be that leader. You know, we have to choose

to be the leader we wish we had. Um, and that is what I follow. That what I believe and that I that's what I work tirelessly towards and I'm looking to join the army and build the army of those who want to do it with me I mean you know it's a jigsaw puzzle you know no one piece makes up the whole puzzle right I only have one piece of the puzzle but you know how a jigsaw puzzle works right first you dump out all the pieces and then you put the picture against the wall or whatever against you know how a jigsaw puzzle works right first you dump out all the pieces and then you put the picture against the wall or whatever against you know and you look at the picture as you do the jigsaw puzzle you can't just take random pieces and make make you have to see what you're going towards so my job in this in this jigsaw puzzle is i'm the one pointing at the picture i'm the

one like i'm out there preaching. My talks, my writings, you know, my job in this team, in this army, is I'm the one pointing at the picture reminding of the thing we're trying to build,

reminding everybody of the thing we're trying to build. And then all I'm asking for is everybody who has a piece of the jokes or puzzle who they believe would help build this vision to just come down to the table

and just put it on the table and we'll find the right fit and we'll find where it goes. Like we'll that out together and by the way we don't need a complete puzzle to make the picture like we can have a sense of it mostly you know so we don't need to change the we don't need to change everybody we just need to get most of it right so yeah you know i i don't have a large corporation. Other people do. They have the opportunity to build an environment in which people feel safe. Do that. That's your piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

Other people are building tools to help those people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We all, if we believe in this picture, if we look at this picture and go, oh, that's pretty, then we have the responsibility to bring our pieces to the table. So what's your biggest fear in this vision, in this higher purpose? What's your fear, your personal fears? I mean, my fears are not that much different to everybody else's. I believe in momentum. I don't believe I'll ever achieve this vision

in my lifetime, but I would like to see that it's making some progress before I die. Like I'd like to see that it's making some progress before I die. Like I'd like to die and say, all right, it's going. So I guess I fear that it either won't find its momentum or if it does, that if I am incapable of releasing myself from it, then it'll die with me.

And I desperately don't want that to happen. I don't think that will happen. I don't know. My fears are like everybody else. I mean, they're pretty mundane. You know, I'm afraid that those who I've made myself vulnerable to will hurt me. I'm afraid that the risks I've taken

to expose myself to people and share them sort of my, you know, parts of me that are buried deep inside, that they will, you know, not me that are you know buried deep inside that they will you know not keep those things safe i don't think my fears are that different from anybody else's have you ever been married no no let me ask you a question about this am i gonna get myself in trouble is this is this where is this where i say something and will then never get married do you think you can be as big of a leader that you want to be being married yeah or does it all depend you know the choice to be a leader

is the choice to be a parent and so to actually be a parent or to be in a relationship and also be a leader means that you have two families, which means if sacrifice is the criteria for leadership, it's the criterion for leadership, the willingness to sacrifice, right? It means that sometimes you'll have to sacrifice one for the other and so i would imagine that it's about balance that your one family understands that you're responsible to your wife and maybe your kids or your husband and your kids and that they are willing to take one for the team now and then so that you can go look after that and likewise that your Take one for the team now and then so that you can go look after that. And likewise, that your family and your spouse understand that you are in service to that.

And your spouse is deeply, deeply supportive of that vision that you have. So I think the risk is in balance. And look, it is imperfect and it will go out of balance here and there. But yeah, it's entirely possible because people do it. I couldn't say it's impossible because there's empirical evidence to the contrary. I'm not, I'm not, I don't think at this point in my life, the funny thing is, it's funny you, you get, you're getting me thinking now, you know, I think when I was younger, I didn't have the capacity for both.

I didn't have the capacity for both. And I think there's a reason I'm not married, which is I wasn't willing to sacrifice the cause for the relationship. For one person. For one person. The relationship to me was always subordinate. And the good news is both I've learned that I can find balance. And I think also I've worked, I've made that, that I can, you know, find balance.

And I think also I've worked, I've made certain sacrifices in my life that, that the movement has found some momentum. In other words, I'm not the only person out there banging the drum. Right. Which affords me the freedom to go and love another and not just my cause. Cause on one hand,

I feel like having that love, you do crazy things and you fill yourself up. Yeah. You get on a plane and travel coast to coast to coast, but like that's stupid, you do crazy things. And you fill yourself up. Yeah, you get on a plane and travel coast to coast to coast. But that's stupid. Right, right, right. You fill yourself up, which could then, you could give that love away on a greater scale. Or if it's out of balance, that relationship,

it could also, if you're not a strong enough leader, I think everyone's going to be emotionally feeling something different when they're in a relationship, depending on how it's going. Will that take you back from your vision? and how long will that take you back for and is it worth it to have the love and then maybe well i think i think that i've the thing that i've learned is a great article that's floating on the internet right now about dating your spouse you know that i'm married and i'm dating somebody. Sure. I'm actually dating my spouse, you know? And I think that's such a great concept.

And I think the lesson that I've learned is that the person with whom I choose to share a life and who chooses to have me share theirs, you know, is every bit involved in my vision as I am involved in theirs, i.e. I feel safe and supported and feel that I can more likely achieve this mad vision of changing the world, you know, because they're in my life, not just in spite of them being in my life. And I, I, I think that has been the biggest thing I've learned in the past,

even just a couple of years, I think. And that's the mistake I've made in my previous relationship. So, you know, yeah. Who knows? Well, I think we have a whole nother conversation about this that I could go on. Oh, the time's up. Oh, look at that. Oh, too bad. I've got many other questions that I'd love to ask.

Definitely next time we actually get on and do this, which hopefully will come back, I want to talk about being of you know serving those who serve others yeah I really like that well that's what by the way that is what I've learned the definition of fulfillment is the definition of fulfillment is the willingness to serve those who serve others so it doesn't mean

blind service serving everybody doesn't mean everybody needs my help that's like you know that's like saying I love everyone on this planet it's just not true some of them are bastards and you just don't want to they just you don't love them you don't you don't even like them forget about love them like there are some people you just don't like and that's okay you know it's about serving those who serve others and that's what service is and this is why i'm sort of i have trouble with the self-help industry you know it's

it's it's the self-help industry is very emblematic of our society these days and the self-help industry. You know, the self-help industry is very emblematic of our society these days. And the self-help industry sort of started out around the 1970s and has grown exponentially year after year after year. And I can't help but enjoy the irony that if the self-help industry was working so well, wouldn't their revenues be in decline? You know, because it would be working, just saying.

You know, but, you know, we've become a very selfish society, which is what can i do to find the job i love what can i do to find my life purpose what can i do you know to you know lose 10 pounds and we've forgotten that fulfillment actually comes from what can i do to help the person next to me lose 10 pounds what can i do to help the person next to me find their life purpose what can i do to help the person next to me find the job that they love and that's where fulfillment comes from and i'll leave you with this which is that idea is not new and if you look at something like alcoholics anonymous which has been successful for over 80 years or something like that helping

people uh beat this addiction of alcoholism and it all boils down to the 12th step now we know the 12th we joke about the 12 step program and we all sort of joke about the first step you know admit you have a problem okay but it's the 12th step that matters the most it's it's the keystone and alcoholics anonymous knows that if people master all 11 steps but not the 12th the odds are pretty high that they're going to start drinking again but if they master the 12th step as well they will beat the disease what's the 12th step the 12th step is the commitment to help another alcoholic service being a mentor being whatever in other words the only way you beat the disease of alcoholism is when you choose to help someone else wow beat the disease

of alcoholism amazing and fulfillment is exactly the same. Amazing. I love it. Well, final question I ask everyone. Sure. What's your definition of greatness? I think we've just talked about it for an hour. Pick someone up.

My definition of greatness is the willingness to put your interests aside so that others may prevail. The willingness to put your own greatness aside so that others may prevail. The willingness to put your own greatness aside so that others may be great. Love it. Thanks, man. Where can we find you online and where can we get the book? All the standard places.

It's available at fine bookstores everywhere and some not so fine ones for that matter. Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and small local bookshops as well sometimes. What else? At Simon Sinek on Twitter. SimonSinek.com That's StartWithWhy.com

or LeadersEatLast.com both of those work. What else? The usual Facebook. Instagram. Instagram. All the usual. Make sure everyone goes out and buys the book

and I appreciate you for coming on and being so open and vulnerable and sharing your fears thanks for giving me a safe space appreciate it so there you have it guys thanks so much for checking this out again very interesting

all the stuff that Simon talks about. And what do you think about the last question that I asked about leadership and achieving your mission in life with kids and with marriage? What are your thoughts? Go ahead and leave your comments over at the show notes. You can head over to schoolofgreatness.com or lewishouse.com and check out the show notes with Simon. And leave a comment, share this with your friends on Twitter and Facebook,

and let me know what you think. With that, guys, I'm super pumped for what's to come with the School of Greatness podcast. We have some amazing guests coming up, and the year has just begun. So strap in and get ready for an amazing ride, and make sure to go out there and do something great. Be true to the game. Because the game will be true to you. If you try to shortcut the game, then the game's going to shortcut you.

If you put forth the effort, a good thing will be bestowed upon you. That's truly about the game's going to shortcut you. If you put forth the effort, you know, the good thing will be bestowed upon you. You know, that's truly about the game. And in some ways, that's about life too.