The School of Greatness - 52 Why Play Is the New Hustle in Business with Charlie Hoehn

Episode Date: February 17, 2014

Charlie Hoehn has worked with some of the greatest authors of our times. People like Tim Ferriss, Seth Godin, Ramit Sethi and Tucker Max. During that time he has created some of the most successful launches ever. He found himself in massive breakdown and had to dig his way out. On this episode of the School of Greatness, Charlie teaches us, from personal experience, how to succeed in the new world of work.

This is episode number 52 with Charlie Hohn. How to Unlock Your Inner Greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Hey, what is up, greats? Thanks so much for tuning in today. I'm super pumped about this episode. It's with my good man, Charlie Hone, and it's all about why you need to play it away. And he's got a new book out called Play It Away, A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety. Now there's so many things that are happening

in a lot of entrepreneurs' lives. You've got the family, you've got the career, you've got the dream of your success, finances, everything else that's happening. And a lot of times, some of us forget that life is all about play. And Charlie has a very unique story and experiences that he shares in this episode. It's all about kind of his rise to the top in the career world in his 20s and how he became extremely depressed and had a lot of anxiety,

a lot of stress while working with some of the most influential people in the entrepreneurial business space. He worked with Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss, Tucker Max, Ramit Sethi, and supported them in a lot of their biggest launches, a lot of their number one book, number one New York Times bestselling book campaigns, events that they did. And he was part of the execution team for a lot of them in that. And he became very unhappy. And he realized that he was focusing a lot of his energy on work and making sure that he was getting results. And he really forgot about playing. He realized he wasn't playing anymore. And so this is a very interesting episode.

And I think it speaks true to a lot of us that we need to play. We need to have fun. We need to remember what life is all about. And so I'm very excited to introduce Charlie here in a second with this new book that he's got and this new message that he's sharing in this book. So stay tuned for that. With that, guys, let's go ahead and jump in right now with the one and only Charlie Cohn. And thanks again, everyone, for tuning in to the School of Greatness.

I've got a friend on who I haven't talked to actually in a while, and it's because he was going through a lot of anxiety and extremely stressed out, and he found his way back to living a life, a fulfilled life, having a lot of fun and stress-free. And so we're coming back on today to chat for the first time in a while because he's written a book about his entire journey, and it's called Play It Away, A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety. His name is Mr. Charlie Hone. What's up, my man?

Hey, Lewis. Thanks so much for having me on, dude. I'm excited, man, because we've known each other for probably, I think, four years, maybe even longer. And you used to work with a number of really influential individuals in the online business space and marketing space in general. Ramit Sethi, you worked with for a while. You also worked with Seth Godin, I believe, early on, and Tim Ferriss for some of his book marketing and the 4-Hour Chef apps and things like that. So you've worked with some amazing influential minds over the last five, six years. Isn't that right? Yeah.

I've had a lot of good fortune to work with. I started off in Colorado and I just kind of reached out to all of these guys who were in New York or San Francisco. And I was really fortunate to get in touch with them and to be able to work with them one-on-one. And you originally worked with Seth was kind of like how you got started, I think, right? Yeah, Seth was, that was a virtual internship. And I applied to that and got rejected. And then he opened it up to all the people who got rejected. And he said, I'll, you know, just I'll give you an assignment, you keep working on it throughout the week. And then I stuck with that for a couple months, and then got to meet him in New York and he helped the there were about a dozen of us who saw the virtual internship through to completion. Nice and then you and

then you started working with Ramit after that right? Yeah. And what were the stuff you're working on with him? I reached out to him originally to offer help with his online video. I noticed he was really good on video, but he never did it. And I said, dude, you got to do more of this. And if what's holding you back is not having a video editor or how big the files are, any of that, just let me take care of it for you. And so I started doing his video editing and taking care of that stuff. And then we started working on the plan for his, his book, the marketing plan. And I helped him market that. plan. And I helped him market that. And then he, he introduced me to Tim Ferriss. And around that time, I was also working with Tucker Max, the author of I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. And

yeah, so both of those guys recommended me to Tim. And I ended up working full time with him. For about how long? And I ended up working full time with him. For about how long? We started on a part time basis in, I think it was 2008. And we worked together, I think, for around three years or maybe even a little over that. And you worked with him for one or two books? I worked with him on, well, when I first came on, um, he had just released the second edition of the four hour work week. And so I helped him market the release of the

second edition. And then, um, I worked with him from start to finish pretty much on the four-hour body, just helping them edit it during the production and then launch it. And then I got a few months into the four-hour chef and then I quit. Gotcha. So you were basically responsible for a couple of big New York Times bestsellers with Tim's For Our Body. I guess we're not responsible, but you're on the team of really devising a great plan with these authors and then executing these plans, which that's where it doesn't matter if you have a great plan. It's all about having a great execution, in my opinion. And you were an essential part, ingredient of those plans and those executions.

You were on point with everything, with reaching out to people, with having the press information, with everything they needed. You were there. We actually did a video about this I think three years ago or something where we talk about how to market a book. Number one New York Times bestseller because you've done a couple of them. to market a book number one new york time bestseller because you've done a couple of them and uh that's the video has actually been you know a great resource for a lot of authors uh from all of your information yeah i should say uh that these guys all had platforms before me they would have done fine right um and i but you know they needed help and I was able to come to them with a very specific outline of what I could offer that was immediately understandable from their perspective as,

oh, this guy can help me get through this with less pain and end up selling hopefully more books. So I mean I get I think sometimes more credit than I deserve. But I did hustle and I did work really hard to get in those positions. So at the same time, I got to take it. Exactly, yeah. And then you stopped working with Tim. And I remember all this happening because we were at –

Yeah, we talked on the phone about this. Yeah, we were at Tim's event as well. Tim had a big event about book marketing. And you were there really supporting that entire event as well and making that happen. And I remember seeing you there and just thinking that you looked so stressed out, man. I was like, man, this guy looks exhausted. It looks like his heart is racing constantly. There's the weight of the world is on his shoulders.

And, you know, we talked about it a little bit. And you were like, you wanted to write a book. I said, what is it you really want to do? And you had like, I think I have like 100 ideas that I've written down for businesses that I want to do. And I want to write a book and this and that. But you were still kind of unclear. But you quit. And then you started working with another friend of mine, Chad,

on AppEmpire. So why did you decide to work with AppEmpire, which ended up being a multimillionaire business in basically the first year? Why did you end up doing that? I was, you know, we talked when I was in San Francisco and I was kind of lost and you gave me some, um, really good advice. I remember because I was talking about this stuff and I was saying, you know, I feel like I have to become this successful entrepreneur. And you were like, what is it that you would actually do if like money and prestige wasn't an issue like what is it that you actually really enjoy doing and I thought about it for a second and I said you know I really like making people laugh like I really just enjoy that and if I could I would do something in that realm. And it's funny, you know, before we

started this podcast, we were talking about, now I've been doing improv comedy for several months and for the first time in my life. And that's just been great. But to get back to your question, why I started working with Chad, I was really unclear what I wanted to do. I just felt like I was being pulled in all these different directions. And then Chad approached me and he said, you know, I want to start an app company. And I knew he'd done really well. But he was like, I want to start something that I'm not going to sell. And I want to be working with my friends. And so Chad and I started getting lunches and stuff together and talking about this. And I had developed an app called Negotiate It with Ramin.

And the app is basically just the counter scripts that you can read to companies and like your cell phone bill company and your cable bill you call them up and you you basically get money back just by reading these scripts in this app and I didn't know how to market that. So I said to Chad, I'll help you market your book if you teach me everything you know about apps and how to market them. And so I came up with, you know, part, I looked at his marketing plan and revised it and helped him there and um yeah then we we started working together and we enjoyed it and um the three of us jason adams was the other one we all kind of talked about co-founding a company together and it did pretty well and then i i ended up quitting that as well. Now, which company was that? Was that AppEmpire or is that just something?

Yeah, it's kind of an umbrella company. They made an information product that teaches people how to start their own app business. A lot of people want to know how to do that. And that ended up selling a couple million dollars in sales, I think, in the first year, right? In 10 days. Wow. Yeah, it did really well. There was a lot of demand for it.

It was an expensive product. This wasn't like a $2,000 product. You were part owner in that? No. So you were part owner in that or what was your... No, I mean, my role was I said, you know, I was getting paid well per month. And I, you know, I just said, let's go month to month while we're starting this because I don't want to, you know, immediately jump into equity talk and residuals and all that because I want to make sure we're all like on the same page. And so we ended up working together for a few months and I was helping them with basically

day to day operations. And we were just seeing, we were just feeling that each other out to see what this would be like, because frankly, I, I wasn't sure, you know, I, I wasn't sure. I didn't know Chad or Jason super well. I know both of them pretty well now, but I wasn't sure if it was the right move. It was initially really appealing and exciting to me because I was like, oh man, Facebook just acquired Instagram for a billion dollars and Draw Something got bought by Zynga for $250 million. And that was my mindset at the time. I was just like, this is the fastest growing industry in the history of capitalism. I'm living the dream. I could co-found an app company with two of my friends and we could just work. We could just make games and fun apps and stuff all day long and I thought you know that was what I needed to be doing I thought that was the next natural step I needed to take in my career to like feel good about myself I guess and so why did you quit it it just didn't feel right

it never really resonated like I don't really care about apps you know i don't i don't and it took me a long time to realize that and the apps that i was making i was just like man i don't think there's a single one of these i would use wow like i used negotiate it because i was like this is a a practical app. It's useful to have. Um, but there was nothing I would get really amped up about. And you know, the apps just aren't really anything I, I care about. I, I like, um, I like books, I like film, um, but not apps. And my ideas just weren't that good. Hmm. I'm going to be honest. Uh, okay. So you quit ideas just weren't that good.

Way to be honest. Uh, okay. So you quit because you didn't like apps and uh, what was next then? What did you, what did you realize? What realization did you come to? Ah, the realization I came to, well, I mean that kind of ratcheted up my anxiety to the highest level because I you know at the time I didn't have the really the self-awareness of like why am I doing this stuff and it was like a status play it was prestige it was a money play and it was like all the wrong reasons what about the happiness

play exactly that was lacking and you know it's's funny because I went into hibernation mode. I moved to Colorado and I was like, all right, I'm going to write my book, you know, because a part of me, I was like, I know that, you know, I've been working on this book for five years and I know I'm never going to write this if I actually reach the success I think I need to reach in order to be taken seriously as an author. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the book I was working on was based on like an e-book I wrote years ago called Recession Proof Graduate. And it's just how to get any job you want basically.

And it's just how to get any job you want, basically. Because the methods and techniques I was using, I noticed a lot of people were using to get themselves these amazing gigs. Like our friend Ryan Holiday, who at 23 was director of marketing for American Apparel. So I started working on that book. I moved back to Colorado and was living in a ski town writing every day. And again, it was the same problem. I was writing that book, but I wasn't in a great state of mind. It wasn't a happy state of mind. I wasn't pursuing my own happiness.

I was doing it because I thought I had to. I still didn't know what I should be doing. There was all this anxiety while I was making this, this first book. And when I showed it to people, um, to a few of my author friends, they all said the same thing. They were like, there's this one section that's really good, but it doesn't belong in the book. And that was the section on overcoming anxiety, because I felt like that section I wrote at the time, a lot of it was like therapeutic. It was like, OK, I tried a bunch of things. This was the stuff that actually helped and worked. And but, you know, there were still some missing pieces to it. I still didn't understand why it didn't feel great and, uh, or the way I used to. And, um, so what happened in that book? That book, um, I cut out that section. Um, and then the, what happened to, uh, the first book that I originally worked on, uh, it's still on the back burner because what happened was

I moved down to Austin and when I first arrived down here I wasn't feeling too great still. And then I was just trying to get my groove back basically and then there was this one night where I read just by random chance, I read this book called Play by Stuart Brown. It's one of those books that came at the exact right time in my life that just like complete it was it it just hit me so hard what I'd been doing wrong for so long was just I was chronically depriving myself of play I was constantly rejecting every opportunity to have

like guilt-free fun because everything I was doing was like this has got to earn me money this has got to advance my career this has got to like it was all about doing more and more and more and I never like accounted for like just having fun just doing things for the sake of doing them and that's like that mentality that state of mind was how I'd always been. I'd never really been serious up until recently. And that was that mentality was how I got those jobs in the first place. Like I viewed life as a series of opportunities to have fun. And so when I was approaching Ramit and Tucker and and tim for me that was fun because i was i was

getting to think of ways to make their customers happier and to and to play a game of my own you know and then at some point i just started taking all of it very seriously this is interesting though So Play A lot of people take their career And business very seriously And it stresses them out They get burned out They have depression

They create cancers in their bodies They get sick, they get overweight Because they're just working constantly They don't sleep So how important is play in the workplace i think it's everything i mean i i think it's it's not only a state of mind but like it's also an action that you have to take because the way that we work now is so foreign to how human beings would actually behave. You know, the way we evolved was to move and to have fun and to do these, like in the hunter gatherer times, like kids would play pretty much all day.

And now they sit in a classroom staring at screens because that's actually preparing them for adulthood that's how adults behave so we sit in chairs all day indoors depriving ourself of fresh air sunlight movement and we take everything we do so seriously so So I found when I started playing, like the first real play moment I had where I was like, I'm going to make a conscious effort to play was when this guy introduced his friend to me through email and said, you guys, you guys really ought to meet. And his friend wrote back and he said hey charlie we should grab coffee sometime and i wrote back to him like we i did you know it's nice to meet you but let's not grab coffee let's go to the park and play catch and um and when we did that and he was so happy that i

responded with that because no one ever responds to that. But when we did that, both of us actually had a genuine bond and there was no pressure to talk the whole time. There was no pressure to impress each other. This subtle game that everyone does when they're in these business meetings was like, I'm higher status, you're lower status sort of thing. It's just constant. And it was just nice. It was relaxing. And when I came off of that, when we were done playing catch, I noticed how much lighter and happier I felt. And for the first time, I noticed like, I was aware that I was, you know, being more flirtatious and I was more likely to prank.

I was like pranking my friends and, um, it's, I just had this playful energy that I just had been lacking for a long time. And, um, yeah, it was just nice. And what I noticed over time was how much it affected my productivity and how necessary it was to have that downtime. So sleep is so beneficial for us because it gives our brain a chance to digest everything that's been coming in throughout the day and actually process it and kind of do a cleanup, like a reset. We need sleep, but we also need play because when you're moving around, you can't be thinking about stuff. So it gives your brain another chance to relax and you're moving around and it's, it's releasing all these positive feelings inside of you. And I remember, um, my friend, uh, um, I had two friends, actually, um, my friend and she was just zoned out. She texted me one day. She's like, I'm trying

to get through my work, but I can't because I'm so bored that I've been staring at a turtle swimming by nearby for the last hour. So we went to the park and played with an aerobie flying ring, which is basically a flying disc that goes really fast and far and is hard to control. So you have to sprint around after it and we played for a couple hours and she texted me the next day and she was like it's crazy to me how like I gave myself permission and just take a day off and have fun and it's made work today easier than ever basically and my friend Aaron did the same thing.

And we just noticed that taking time off to have fun and do fun stuff with your friends without feeling bad about it, knowing that it's a necessity and not an escape, it impacted our work. It made us more creative, more productive. It made work easier and faster. So interesting that it is such a simple concept to just play is something that can help you in all areas of your life and especially in your career and relieving stress, anxiety by simply just playing. And do you have a, you know, what about people who are like, well, you know, this is serious for me because I got to make money.

I've got kids, I've got responsibilities, I got bills. And if I don't focus and if I'm not serious with my career and really taking these calculated steps, then how am I going to like provide for my basic needs, provide for my family and get the, you know, acknowledgement I want, I guess, in my career? So what do you say to people like that who are stressed because they need to focus and they need time off because if you get in that mode where you're taking everything so seriously, no matter what happens, you're probably not going to die. You're probably not going to suffer too, too much. And you need that time off to decompress and actually enjoy life.

Because when you get around people and you have this guilt-free fun with them, playing, doing something that everyone enjoys where you're not being a perfectionist and you're not so caught up in the outcome and you're just enjoying the moment, you actually get to bond with those people and you form friendships with them. And that's what prevents anxiety is actually feeling like you're a part of a group that loves you, that you can have fun with and trust. And I forget who said this, but one author did a bunch of research on happiness. And he found that the people who reported the highest degrees of happiness, the top 10%, there was only one thing that they had in common,

and it was the quality of their relationships. And you can't get quality relationships exclusively from working all the time or just from talking over coffee all the time or from going to seminars and handing out your business cards. You actually have to bond with people. My best friends from high school are the people I played sports with for years. And I guarantee you can say the same, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And you get to bond over an activity that you enjoy and you get to see each other fail in a way that's totally harmless and funny and you just form this unique bond that you can only have by playing and and when you have that bond you actually have relationships with these people and they're more likely to introduce you to unique opportunities because you have a great you have a deeper connection with them yeah yeah and they're more likely to trust you so i think not everyone's playing the same game of i have to take this very seriously and i have to stare at my computer all day long and interact

with people through screens and that's perfectly acceptable. And you can not only distinguish yourself by actually going out and playing face to face in the real world with them, but you can actually form real meaningful relationships with these people. So what's a, so what, what steps can someone take if they're super stressed out, living in in anxiety never play because they've just been focused on working and making money and and achieving that type of financial status what are some things they can do to get started playing where they're guilt-free when they do this because that's probably a lot of people's concern is that they play they feel like it's they're they feel very guilty especially if it's during the work day right and then if they're after work and they've got kids they can't go play you know on their own

or whatever because they feel guilty or they could play with their kids right right yeah um yeah this is a good question i think the first thing they should do is write up their play history. And what that is, is all the activities that they voluntarily turn to for fun repeatedly when they were growing up. So for me, that was, you know, team sports and playing catch. But it was also making people laugh. I would do film sketches and I would write stand-up comedy jokes and I would go to stand-up comedy events. I loved building things with my hands. I loved assembling furniture

or building furniture from scratch. And I really loved what I realized, the one game that I played more than anything else all throughout my life up until several years ago was home run derby. My friends and I would always play it. Like we would just go in somebody's big backyard with a bucket of tennis balls and just hit home runs.

And it was so much fun. So I went through my play history and I just picked my top things that I did, my top activities. And then I scheduled in my calendar every day to do one of those things for 20 minutes. I would really take that seriously. And I know it's kind of weird to schedule it in your calendar because it's like, play is supposed to be spontaneous and everything. But if you're chronically play deprived, then you need to cut out a section of time during the day

where you're like, all right, I'm just going to play ping pong with my friend. And like, sit down and have a talk with your friend and be like, look, this is a priority for me. Life is too serious. And I need a way to decompress. Can you help me? Because I'm really stressed out. And I would love to make this a commitment on a day to day basis. to make this a commitment on a day-to-day basis. And I think my favorite play toy that you can get for under $10 is that Aerobie flying ring because you have to run around after it. So it's a good,

you're getting your heart racing. And so it's actually a form of exercise and you have to play with a friend to make it fun. So I think it's just baby steps. Instead of getting coffee with somebody, play catch with them. Right. And on the cover of your book, you actually have you and another guy playing catch with a a suit or with the tie on yeah and uh i thought it was pretty interesting it kind of reminds me of field of dreams yeah that's that's

exactly what i went for actually did you see the post i did i did not see the post you did i did a post on how how i designed my book cover and the two elements that i took in or the three elements I took into account, or the three pieces of art, were Field of Dreams, Big Fish, and Where the Wild Things Are. And the spirit of those movies is so ingrained in my mind and the imagery. And all of them encapsulate play and nostalgia for me. So that's what I was going for now it's a great cover thanks i don't know who who's the the gentleman is that uh that's my dad okay yeah that's what i figured that's pretty interesting field of dreams right there yeah cool uh and he's actually got a catcher's bit which is funny ray can sell. That's funny.

So you just gave some steps on how you can kind of get started. And in your book, you've got a four-week plan for health and happiness. And you talk about how you change the world, which I want to type into in a second. But what I want to know is if you started off, how old are you now, Charlie? 27. So if you started off when you were 21, playing for a living, as opposed to trying to create this financial success and this status or achievements in the business world, if you started out playing and kind of doing what you love every single day, with the acting, the improv, the script writing and playing, would you be as financially successful as you are today?

I wouldn't call myself financially successful by any stretch. I mean, I've made decent money in the past, but yeah, I want to be clear. I don't have as much money as you think I might have, but would I be where I am if I'd started with like the other forms of play is the question, right? Um, I don't know where I would be. I think my, my, what, what, when I was making this book, when, when I started looking into, you know, people who'd emphasize the importance of play in doing stuff that's really fun, I started finding that they were some of the most successful and influential and innovative people. I don't know if I would be doing what I'm doing now, but I know that I started by thinking of who can I work with that can teach me what I want to learn that will be cool and fun for me to do. And I started not thinking how much money I can get

because I was working with a lot of these guys for free for a long time. And I started from that place of what is going to be fun for me while enabling me to become an entrepreneur, because that's in my mind, like inventors and entrepreneurs, I thought were so cool. And I've, I've always been that way. I've always thought that. But I, yeah, I don't know if I would be doing just stand up or, or film. I'm not sure. I mean, I explored film for a while. And now I'm exploring improv. I have tons and tons of interests. And I have tons of things that I do for fun. So it's really tough to say. I mean, books, writing is, is, can be really fun for me. And reading is, can be really fun for me too. So I don't know. Well, what about changing the world? How do we change the world?

So the way you change the world, I think we're living in one of the most like anxious periods of time. One of the more anxious periods of time in recent history, because everything is connected now all around the world and we're, you know, constantly attached to screens. And there's a lot. We all have access to the same information, basically. And a lot of that information is scary. And it's uncertain.

And it talks about the future and how scary it's going to be. And it's really easy to fall into this trap of constant fear about the future and the doom and gloom and the end is near and all this stuff. And I got into that trap for a while and it was not because that information is necessarily completely accurate, but it's because I was isolated and alone and taking everything very seriously and I was just on the constant lookout for threats to my survival and when I started playing again that went away and you know I you know, life isn't about success and prestige. Life is about connection. It's a ride.

It's a gift. You know, it's not supposed to be how can I not lose. It's supposed to be about being in the moment. And I think the way you change the world is by asking those people who are afraid and anxious, and you can see it on their face, you can see it in their eyes, to be a part of your group and to play. And when you do that,

you can help them remember what it's like to be a kid again and remember that the world is their playground, Help them remember what it's like to be a kid again. And remember that the world is their playground, not the prison that they think it is. I like that. It's interesting. I just read an article recently on Huffington Post that talked about global game changers reveal what success looks like in their 20s

and how that has changed. And it reminds me a lot of this conversation. And there's a lot of people, a lot of well-known people, Tyra Banks was mentioned on there, Ariana Huffington and Richard Branson, things like that mentioned on there, you know, in their 20s, it was mostly the synopsis was mostly that it was about climbing the ladder, uh, gaining material things, money, uh, achievements, things like that. And then afterwards, they realized that going into their 30s, that they're very sleep deprived, having a lot of anxiety, stressed out constantly, losing on a connection. And when they would achieve these financial results or these material results, they were found very unfulfilled and unhappy after a period of time.

And so what started shifting was more of connection and impact and giving to the community, to the world, and to others. And that's what really made them successful and made them feel fulfilled was that sense of giving and community and living in the moment and, you know, in connection, which is what you said is the most,

you know, one of the most important things. Right. And, um, you've got a really good four week game plan for, you know, how to play and how to get rid of anxiety and things like that.

And looking through it, it's, it's really practical. There's a lot of great tips and steps and suggestions, which I think are extremely valuable for people who may be clueless or may think, you know, I don't have the time to do this. Or, you know, again, I need to be serious. I need to make money. I got to support my family. But I really encourage you guys to check this out because of this four-week game plan that Charlie has. It's really very practical and it's something that anyone can do little bits of it at a time as needed. And you give steps on what to do, how much it costs, when to do it, resources, and things

like that, which I think are extremely valuable. And it's really cool that you've decided to write about this and be kind of a messenger for a lot of people, specifically entrepreneurs, who are stressed out a lot. Yeah. And people who stress and anxiety are really the cause of a lot of illness. Yeah. And disease. And unhappiness.

And unhappiness. So there's no point in being unhappy. I mean, we, like you said, we've only got one life that we, that we know of. So let's make it happy. Yeah. And you know, for, for all the anxious people out there, you know, when, when people say like, there's, you know, just be happy, you know, there's no point in like taking life so seriously. It's really hard for an anxious people to hear that because they're like, I know, but I can't help but be terrified and worry and living in constant dread. And the way you can inoculate that is by incorporating guilt-free fun back into your life, not just the action, but the state of mind. And that's the thing I really want to impart on people.

It's like play is not only the thing that you do, but it's the way that you think. It's the way you approach the world. I like that a lot. I believe that's mostly how I live my life. Yeah, you're a good example. I feel very relaxed and inspired and energized throughout all my days. Again, there's probably a lot of moments where I falter and get stressed out.

But for the most part, when I'm playing, especially in the summer, it's my intention to go outside and play basketball for about three hours a night, pick up basketball here in West Hollywood. And, uh, you know, I'm working out a lot and I'm playing,

uh, handball and I'm, I'm striving for the Olympic dream of playing handball and I'm playing a lot. And it's, it's fun because you get to connect, you get to sweat, you get to be in the moment.

And whenever I'm playing, I'm in flow. And it's the most powerful uh it's the play slips you into flow and flow is the most amazing feeling in the world it's uh something that athletes strive to be in all the time authors you know musicians actors When people are in flow, it's one of the most amazing feelings in the world. It makes you feel the most alive, the most excited, energized, passionate. And it's like time slows down

and speeds up at the same time. Right, you can lean into life rather than timidly tipping your toes out into it. It's, it's an amazing feeling. And the only way to really create that is by being, uh, is allowing yourself to surrender to play, um, or to surrender to the moment and, and let go of everything else you're thinking about and focus only on that moment with your entire way of being, your body, your energy, your thoughts, your entire heart, everything. So I'm really grateful that you decided to write this book finally. And I think it's perfect timing for you.

And you've done all the hard work. You've dealt with enough anxiety and stress over the years to be credible enough to write this. So I appreciate you for coming together with this. And it's not a long read either. No. It's very quick. Yeah, I wanted to get to the point as quickly as I could with this book

because anxious people want to cut to the point as quickly as I could with, uh, with this book because anxious people want to the chase. Um, but yeah, man, it's, uh, it's, it's really, really crazy with this book because it came out of another book. And I think this one's not only better, but it's just like, it's something I love. Like when, when I flipped through it, I'm like, God, it just, this is so good that something so good came out of so much pain. And, um, I think it's going to help a lot of people who need it. Interesting, man. I love it. Where, uh, where can we find this? You will be able to pick up the book on Amazon as a paperback or a Kindle. It will also be on iBooks. And I'm also selling the PDF, the DRM-free PDF on Gumroad.

So if you want to just, if that's too much to handle, you can find links and stuff really easily on my website, charliehone.com. And that's H-O-E-H-N. We'll have it all over at the show notes at lewishouse.com. But I appreciate it, man. And I want to wrap up with the final question. Yeah, thanks so much. I got one more question for you. Okay. That's what I ask everyone. And it's what's your definition of greatness? okay that's what i ask everyone and it's what's your definition of greatness being your best and being the best most authentic version of yourself um which is really hard to do the way we're brought up but i think for me to tie it back into what we've been talking about play brings out the best version of myself the greatest version when i allow myself to tie it back into what we've been talking about, play brings out the best version of myself, the greatest version,

when I allow myself to do it. And I think that goes with everybody. I agree. I love it, man. CharlieHohn.com. Make sure to pick up the book. It's an awesome read for really letting go of your stress and anxiety

and bringing play back in your life. So I appreciate you, man. And I'm super grateful for you for this. And I know it's going to help a lot of people. So, uh, thanks so much. And we'll definitely, we'll definitely talk to you soon, man. All right, man. Thanks so much. There you have it. Thanks so much for listening today. Again, Charlie is a great guy and has an amazing story of what he's created in his 20s.

But really what he realized is that it comes down to leaving a bigger impact and making sure you're taking care of yourself and playing and having fun with other people, creating this community around play as opposed to around, let's just have coffee and be serious and network and trade business cards. But really, why don't we play and have fun around this and build a deeper bond, deeper trust, deeper relationship around the idea

of play? I think it's brilliant and it's a way I try to live my life as well. So if you enjoyed this, then make sure to check out Charlie's site over at charliehone.com. We've got all the show notes over at schoolofgreatness.com or lewishouse.com and just check out the episode with Charlie Hone

on the podcast section. And if you enjoyed this or you think maybe you've got some workaholic friends yourself who could apply some play in their life, then go ahead and share this with your friends. Go ahead and send an email, promote it on Twitter or Facebook or anywhere else online that you see fit. And I appreciate you for sharing this and constantly listening.

We've got some amazing episodes coming up. And if you have yet to listen to any previous episodes, make sure to go back into the archives and check it out. There's some great guests on here over at the School of Greatness. And we're going to continue to bring you some of the top guests and influencers and inspiring minds in the world. So stay tuned. Make sure to subscribe over on SoundCloud, Stitcher, or iTunes.

And subscribe to the newsletter over at lewishouse.com. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I love you. And make sure to go out there and do something great. When stress does hit you, how many of you will admit that after 9-11, maybe you had a little stress? Can I see your hands, please? All right.

Let me tell you something, folks. If you take the word stressed and spell it backwards, it's desserts. When you respond to life instead of react to it, react is negative. You get sick, go to the doctor. She gives you a prescription, says, see me tomorrow. You walk in the next day. She said, oh, it's not working. We, we got to have to change their prescription. You get a little nervous, but as you smile and say, Hey, it's working. And so you have just, she's just

responded and you feel better because now you see some real hope in order to get ahead in life. But I don't care how optimistic you are. And incidentally, for what it's worth, I am an optimist. I'd take my last $2 and buy a money belt with it. I mean, that's the way I'm put together. I'd go after Moby Dick and Robo and take the tartar sauce with me. Your optimism is an important fact of life. Thank you.