The School of Greatness - 541 Gretchen Rubin: Happiness, Habits and Understanding Human Nature

Episode Date: September 25, 2017

"Greatness is living up to your aims for yourself." - Gretchen Rubin If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/541 ...

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is episode number 541 with the number one New York Times best-selling author, Gretchen Rubin. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Donald Miller said, when you stop expecting people to be perfect, you can like them for who they are.
Starting point is 00:00:41 And welcome to this episode with the sensational Gretchen Rubin. If you don't know who she is, she is the author of several books, including the blockbuster New York Times bestsellers, Better Than Before, The Happiness Project, and Happier at Home. She has an enormous readership, both in print and online online and her books have sold almost 3 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. Now she hosts the popular weekly podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Fast Company named Gretchen to its list of the most creative people in business and she's a member of Oprah's Super Soul 100. She's also a three-time number one New York Times best-selling author. And I'm so excited about our interview today. She's in the Greatness Studio. And some of the
Starting point is 00:01:31 big things we talk about are the four tendencies that human beings have with their personality and how this affects you at home, at work, and in your life. We talk about what these four tendencies are, how you can understand which one you are and understand what everyone else is around you. We talk about the best way to tell someone how to work with your personality type, why people are the way they are, the four ways people respond to certain expectations.
Starting point is 00:02:00 That and so much more in episode number 541. If you want to watch the full video interview make sure to check out the full show notes at lewishouse.com slash 541 there are a lot of great quotes over there on the show notes make sure to tweet them out tag your friends on twitter instagram facebook and tag me as well when you're posting this so i can connect with you on social media and say thank you for listening all right right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this one all about happiness and understanding human nature. Episode number 541 with the one, the only Gretchen Rubin. Welcome back and more to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the legendary Gretchen Rubin in the house.
Starting point is 00:02:42 I like being legendary. Thank you. Good to see you. Double like being legendary. Thank you. Double high five. Double high five. I'm excited that you're here. The last time you were on was a couple years ago. But it wasn't in person. It was over Skype, I believe.
Starting point is 00:02:56 Yeah, now I'm hearing your fabulous setup here. Yes. In the middle of the gorgeous LA. It's just like you read about. Greatness headquarters. Greatness headquarters. Yes, it lives up to it. Hopefully.
Starting point is 00:03:09 We're always trying to improve. Yeah, that high bar but i think i think you meet it the word is is a high standard it is because you can't have average stuff if you're trying to be great yeah yeah you can't have the mediocre you can't do it but um you've you've impacted so many people's lives over the last many years um with all your. What is this? Your sixth book now? Seventh book. This is actually like my eighth or ninth book because I started writing a lot before. I had a lot of books come out before anybody sort of realized it. You knew about it. Yes.
Starting point is 00:03:33 But in here, I think it shows like six previous books. Is that right? These six books. I hope they listed them all. One, two, three, four, five, six. So this is my... What? They messed up all the books that you wrote.
Starting point is 00:03:46 They missed a book. Oh, my gosh. No way. This is why I don't like seeing finished books. Oh, trust me. Listen. Oh, my gosh. I cannot believe it.
Starting point is 00:03:56 Let me show you something. I am super annoyed. Let me show you something. Oh, my... You know what? It's one of my... Well, I love all the books that I wrote, but it's 40 Ways to Look at Winston Churchill,
Starting point is 00:04:04 which is such a wonderful book that I wrote. Oh's 40 ways to look at Winston Churchill which is such a wonderful book that I wrote oh my gosh that's just making a note right now I just made a note I am
Starting point is 00:04:09 just yeah yeah let the record reflect that I'm writing myself an irate note I'm gonna show you this so when I got my copy and this is an advanced copy
Starting point is 00:04:16 see I don't even like looking at the final copy because you always see something that's wrong and it's too late to fix it it's the first pages first
Starting point is 00:04:21 it's the first thing you see I'll show you this so okay good right when I right when I opened I was like okay this looks nice the first thing you see it's i'll show you this so okay right when i right when i opened i was like okay this looks nice the first page it looks nice the second page can you do you notice anything here that usually wouldn't be on this page your dedication see she got it right away the dedicate the dedication is on the copyright page
Starting point is 00:04:43 i've never seen that before. And I was like, how do we miss this? Because you'd think it's something so simple that would have its own page, right? But I'm going to tell you how we're going to reframe this to make ourselves happier. So there's a belief, and I don't know if it's true, but that in certain folk cultures, like the Amish or whomever, I've heard it attributed to different cultures, that when people are making something, say they're making a quilt or they're making a piece of furniture, they deliberately introduce a mistake to show that man cannot aspire to the perfection of God. And so this is just how you show that you're acknowledging
Starting point is 00:05:18 that nothing can be perfect. And so I think you have something that's not perfect. I have something that's not perfect i have something that's not perfect and we're gonna embrace this maybe we'll make it into a little game for our our readers like find the imperfection okay find the mistake in the first five pages something something is missing something is wrong so i brought this to your attention you didn't know this well i mean i give you props for being detail-oriented man because that's like one of my favorite books that i've ever written and it's not listed there oh my gosh you know I think what it was is they didn't list profane waste which is a very odd
Starting point is 00:05:49 it's like an art essay that I did in collaboration with an with an artist and so I think that got dropped and so I was so busy putting that in that I didn't check to see if all the books were in because you're just like oh they forgot this one so let's add it yeah but despite that mistake it's an amazing book that will change everybody's lives so that's okay which one that one and this one so it's at it yeah but despite that mistake it's an amazing book that will change everybody's lives so that's okay which one that one and this one yes this one yes exactly why will it change everyone's lives self-knowledge i mean i really think when people know about the four tendencies they really do um in my vanity i have to believe that they really do see themselves differently and more clearly and then they understand other people better too. And they can see how to set up situations in a way that just allows everybody to, to thrive.
Starting point is 00:06:32 Less than a thrive, but it's also give you like peace of mind and clarity or what is it? What's the main thing it does for you? Well, part of, well, it's peace of mind, but it's, and it's also compassion. It's like, I understand, like I, like you're struggling with something that's easy for me instead of feeling disdain for you or being puzzled or frustrated that you're not following through in a way that would make sense to me. I think, oh, well, somebody else just needs things to be set up in a different way. So let's set up this situation in a way that is going to allow
Starting point is 00:06:59 you to thrive. The fact that I wouldn't need this to be set up this way doesn't really matter. It's like, okay, well, you need something different from what I need. So, okay, well, let's just the fact that I wouldn't need this to be set up this way doesn't really matter it's like okay well you need something different from what I need so okay well let's just figure that out yeah and Christine was going over these these tendencies and she is the what do you the upholder obliger obliger okay well that's the biggest tendency that's the one the most people fit into so it makes sense she said she's uh said when there's challenges or rules that other people give her, she lives up to it. But if she sets her own rules, she's like, eh, I can slide on these things. That's obliger.
Starting point is 00:07:33 Right? Yeah. She's like, that's me. That is the definition of obliger. And then what am I, Christine? I'm a rebel? If somebody asks or tells you to do something, you're very likely to resist? Yeah, I'm likely to resist yeah i'm likely to
Starting point is 00:07:45 resist unless i it's like my idea that's right see rebels can do anything they want to do so should i go my way should i go through the framework yes okay so it has to do with how people respond to expectations outer expectations like a work deadline or a request from a friend and or inner expectations your own desire to keep a new year's resolution your own desire to uh start but write a novel in your free time so upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations they meet the work deadline they keep the new year's resolution without much of us upholders upholders anything that they set for themselves or anyone else asked them to do they do yes yeah okay so like why do they do that hermione granger is like the most right now is probably the most famous upholder in the world uh then questioners questioners question all expectations
Starting point is 00:08:30 they'll do something if they think it makes sense so they make everything an inner expectation if it meets their standard they will meet it no problem if it fails their standard they will resist they hate anything arbitrary inefficient or unjustified whenever anybody uses the word arbitrary it's like a big warning sign. It's a big signal that they're a questioner. Then obligers. So this is Christine, obliger. They readily meet outer expectations,
Starting point is 00:08:52 but they struggle to meet inner expectations. Like I had a friend who said, oh, well, when I was on a track team, I never missed track practice, so why can't I go running now? It's like, oh, well, when you had a team and a coach waiting for you, you had no trouble showing up.
Starting point is 00:09:04 But when you're just trying to go running on your own you struggle right and then finally rebels lewis you're a rebel so rebels resist all expectations outer and inner alike they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time if you ask or tell them to do something they're very likely to resist typically they don't even want to tell themselves what to do like like they might not say like i'm not going to sign up for a 10 a.m spin class on saturday because i don't know what i'm going to feel like doing on saturday i don't like planning anything that's the thing spontaneity wait until the last minute then i'll plan and commit yeah no um a lot of um spontaneity again like there's certain things that people say and you're like
Starting point is 00:09:36 that's a tip-off spot when anybody's trying to talk about like it's important to be spontaneous i'm like i bet you're a rebel someone who likes to schedule out a year in advance who is that well that could be upholders or questioners or obligers, though it's very typical of upholders. But the thing about rebels, and I think you're a great example of this, Lewis, is they can do anything they want to do. They can do anything they choose to do. You and I are both friends with Chris Guillebeau. Great, brilliant, great guy. He's a rebel. Because once they make up their mind, they they can do anything but the fact that you're telling them to do something is not going to make them do it
Starting point is 00:10:08 and might make them be like you know what you're not the boss of me I'm not going to do that right now or I'm not going to do it at all because it's almost reverse psychology you tell me I can't do something then I'm going to rebel against you
Starting point is 00:10:18 and say you know what I'm going to show you so in that people can use that so for instance let's say you have a rebel in your life and you want to encourage that person to quit smoking. You wouldn't say you have to quit. You wouldn't say you should quit. You shouldn't say the doctor says you have to quit.
Starting point is 00:10:32 You shouldn't say you promised me you'd quit. I bet you can't quit though. Yeah. I like you. You've been smoking 10 years. You're addicted, man. There's no way you can quit. There's no way you can get big.
Starting point is 00:10:42 Tobacco's got you right where they want you. You're pouring money into their pockets. Yeah even bother don't even try you can't don't even try yeah keep smoking yeah yeah big tobacco you're the guy they're depending on yeah yeah you're you're stuck you can't quit yeah and then often they'll do something in their own way too like doing a typical cessation program they're like like, no, I'm going to just go hardcore and quit overnight or I'll have my own system for doing it. So that's- Come up with a process for them that works. They want to do it their way.
Starting point is 00:11:12 Yeah, that's totally true. So sometimes you could say, well, sometimes this works for some people or some people like this. And I've seen people have success with this. And maybe you want to think about this when you're thinking about what would work for you. But then it's just whatever you think,
Starting point is 00:11:22 whatever works for you. And I've seen you do amazing things in your time. If you make up your mind that you want to quit, I don't know, maybe you could quit because I've seen you do some pretty powerful stuff when that's what you want. So when you make up your mind, you know, that kind of thing.
Starting point is 00:11:37 Are we born with these tendencies? Yes. Or are we, we are? I think we're, I think they're inborn. I think they're part of our, our personality. Or is it triggers of things that happened in our childhood? I don't think so. That make us start resisting and reacting and then we become rebellious or whatever now?
Starting point is 00:11:51 I really think that these are inborn. You're not one at 20 and one at 40. You're not one at work and one at home. They're really hardwired into your personality. You never change. Can you never change from being a questioner and upholder? Well, okay. So one big question in sort of personality studies is, do people change? And I think in my observation, for the most part,
Starting point is 00:12:09 most people do not change. Like you recognize the person at maybe eight years old that they would be at 58. Like they're basically the same person. And I think for those kinds of people, you stay within your tendency. With time and experience and wisdom, you might be able to use your tendency to your advantage. Or maybe if you're in a culture, like if you're in North Korea, being a questioner, you're going to tamp that down. If you're in Silicon Valley, you might get rewarded for it. Every once in a while, there are people who go through truly personality altering events. Maybe it's a severe trauma. It's a brush with death. It's a serious bout of addiction. It's, you know, you go on a medication
Starting point is 00:12:51 that really fundamentally changes the way your personality comes out. Or something so extraordinary happens to you, like, oh my gosh, you were pretty much a normal person, and now you're Diana, Princess of Wales. And that is such an extraordinarily distorting thing to happen to somebody that i think then then people's tendencies can kind of slip out of place but i think for the basic person who's more or less the same person that they were um you're
Starting point is 00:13:16 stuck you're not stuck you're born with a tendency and you can yes can people choose to change if they want to they say you know what i don't like being a rebel i want to be an upholder so this gets to another big question which is can you really change your inborn nature and the fact is if you even can which debatable if you can't it's very very hard and takes a long time and is an enormous struggle right but it's super easy to change your circumstances so what i say about the four tendencies is if there's something you don't like about your tendency just fix it from the outside like figure Like figure out the hack in your circumstances to get you wherever you want to go. So if you're an obliger and you're, so obligers, if they want to meet inner expectations, if they want to meet their own expectations for themselves, what they need is outer accountability. That is
Starting point is 00:13:58 the solution that will always work. So if you want to, if you want to read a book, join a book group. If you want to exercise, join an exercise class. There's a million ways to create outer accountability once you realize it. And sometimes obligers will say to me, well, I don't want to have to rely on outer expectations. I want to be able to just have my own inner expectations. I don't want outer accountability. And you won't get anything done. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:14:18 I'm just like, well, there's a quick, easy way to do this and to get done what you want to get done. Or you could spend a lot of time trying to deeply change yourself, which I think seems incredibly frustrating and probably not even possible. So why not do the quick, easy thing? And that's one of the things I like about the four tendencies framework is that it really does suggest fairly simple solutions to common problems. Once you realize what the issue is, it's like, oh, okay, I see how people like me solve problems like this. It's not so hard. Yeah. What advice do you give for people who don't understand the tendencies?
Starting point is 00:14:53 Like, let's say I understand these, but you don't. Right, yeah. How am I supposed to connect with you so that you understand my tendency and what I'm going to need to be able to effectively be a better leader with me or communicate with me or understand who I am. We're not just clashing. Right. Well, I think one of the things that happens with the four tendencies is a lot of times people don't understand what actually they need. So let's say you're a questioner and you're having a lot of conflict with your boss. What you might not understand is happening is,
Starting point is 00:15:24 okay, you're like, okay, I am as a questioner need to have robust justification for everything if I'm going to get with the program. And so I'm asking you question after question after question because I don't understand a decision that you made. Okay, I as your boss am perceiving you as being obstructionist, insubordinate. Why are you questioning my judgment? I'm feeling thin-skinned and defensive because I feel like here's somebody who's really refusing to accept my authority. So we have a conflict. Whereas if I'm the questioner, I could be like, okay, I see that this is something that comes up sometimes with questioners. We questioners sometimes drain and overwhelm people with our questions.
Starting point is 00:15:58 I need to think of a way to be more constructive in the way that I'm approaching my boss because I can see that this is causing a problem. Or I as a boss could say, this guy has a pain in my neck, but he's probably like this all the time with everybody he ever runs into. He has all these questions. There might be other people here who have questions. So why don't I say like, hey, team, if you feel like you understand
Starting point is 00:16:19 why we picked this software program, you do not need to come to the meeting. If you don't want to know more, that's fine. But if you feel like you would really like to come to the meeting. You know, if you're not, if you don't want to know more, that's fine. But if you feel like you would really like for us to take some time an afternoon this week, and I'm going to really sit down and take you through the logic and the reasons that corporate used in order to pick the software. If you feel like you have questions that haven't been answered, I'd be happy to take your questions. So it's like, okay, I don't have to take it personally.
Starting point is 00:16:43 This guy isn't, you know, he's not trying to be disrespectful. He just needs answers. So it's like once you realize that's what's going on, it's easy to see. But it's not like both of those players need to have the other person understand. They just have to be like,
Starting point is 00:16:59 oh, I see how I'm reacting to this person. Got it, got it. How did you do the research for this to figure these out? You know, I'm like a street scientist. So I'm always to this person. Got it, got it. How did you do the research for this to figure these out? You know, I'm like a street scientist. So I'm always just like looking around. It's, it's anecdata. I'm looking, you know, looking to try to understand what I see around me.
Starting point is 00:17:13 And one of the, I had this giant lightning bolt when very normal, ordinary moment of my life where I was having lunch with a friend and she said something that is very, it's like something that a lot, it's like something that a lot of people have said similar things. When she said, I don't understand. When I was on the high school track team, I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? And that was the thing that really got me noticing patterns.
Starting point is 00:17:39 And then I started noticing that, like some people, if you say, well, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions? Some people would say, oh, well, I would keep a resolution whenever it made sense for me, but I wouldn't do it on January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date. So would that be a rebel then? That'd be a questioner. Questioner. Because arbitrary is the key.
Starting point is 00:17:59 Yeah, it's like I would do it whenever it makes sense because that's like what's more efficient, but I'm not going to wait. I'm not going to do it when everyone else does it. I want to do it when I want to do it. That's true because that's what's more efficient. I was thinking, I'm not going to do it when everyone else does it. I want to do it when I want to do it. That's true. That's what I was hearing. But also, rebels often will say things like, I would never bind myself to New Year's resolution. If I want to do something, I'll do it.
Starting point is 00:18:14 If I don't want to do it, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to tell myself I'm going to do it. And in fact, rebels will often say that if they do try to make a resolution, then they rebel against it. So if they're like, oh, I'm giving up bread, then they run out the next day and buy a giant loaf of sourdough bread. Or it's like, oh, I'm going to make a to-do list and do everything on my to-do list. It's like, no, I'm not going to do anything on my to-do list. But so I started noticing these patterns and it took me a long time to sort of figure out how all the pieces fit together. And it was really when I understood that the core
Starting point is 00:18:41 idea is this idea of expectation, which is such a boring word. I was like searching for a synonym that sounded like juicier, but it really does come down to this outer and inner expectations. And once you see that, then all these patterns that seem very disconnected, all of a sudden makes sense. Expectations is just like the killer of community. It's like the killer of relationships. When people have an expectation that's not understanding the other person's expectation and it's not met or it is met, I feel like so much conflict happens when people aren't aware of expectations or they're not clearly defined. Yes, yes, absolutely.
Starting point is 00:19:15 It's challenging. It is challenging. But when we can understand the tendencies, we're going to understand someone's expectations of them, I feel like, right? Yes, yes, yes. Well, and it's also I think it highlights exactly your point, which is that it's very important to think about the role they're playing. Don't have them be implicit or assumed or not discussed.
Starting point is 00:19:34 It's like if you want, if you have something that you want to have happen, you need to spell that out. You know, it's like, well, if I load the dishwasher, I expect you to unload it. And then we can have a conversation about it. But it's like, don't just expect that somebody is going to volunteer and understand that this is how all right-minded people behave. They might not. What makes you so curious about these things?
Starting point is 00:19:54 Like about, you know, the happiness project, this, all the stuff you've been doing. Why are you so curious to know all these things? I think this has just always been my subject. And all my books, including the one that's not listed in my book, my name, my latest book, it's all about human nature. It's like trying to understand, um, why are people the, how, what, what are we like? Why do we do what we do? How, how can people change? Like why can people change sometimes, but not other times? Why are people alike and different? I don't know. It's always been the thing that's most
Starting point is 00:20:24 interested me. In fact, it was so interesting to me. It didn't occur to me that it was an interest. It just seemed like the thing that everybody in the world was interested in. It didn't seem like a specialty in a way. It took me a while to realize like, oh, this is a subject. Yeah. Were you always curious as a kid too? Just about these things, people and observing people? Well, I've always been a huge reader. And so I think that's how it comes out. It's just always wanting to read more and more and more. Because that's a great way to learn about human nature is through reading.
Starting point is 00:20:54 You still read a lot today? I do. I do read a lot. Every week, a new book, two books. Yes. And in fact, on my Facebook page, every Sunday night, I do a thing, a hashtag Gretchen Rubin Reads, where all I do is post a picture Gretchen Rubin reads where I just I all I do is post a picture of the books that I've read that week and I always this is one of the things I did
Starting point is 00:21:10 for the happiness project is I stopped reading any book that I don't like so if I if you see it in the stack it means I liked it well enough to finish it um but I don't otherwise editorialize about it because it would just be I read a lot so it would just take too much time to write like a little thing do you speed read at all or do you actually like read it word for word? Do you skip over stuff and kind of like first chapter, last chapter? No, I mean, I don't, I'm certainly not trained in speed reading. I don't do anything that's officially speed reading. I must read pretty fast because I feel like I never have time to read. It's like this huge thing that I'm constantly working on in my book, Happier at Home, And also, better than before, I'll bet habits.
Starting point is 00:21:45 I talked a lot about the habits of reading more, which is a habit that a lot of people want. I feel like I'm never reading. And yet I do read several books a week. So I must be reading some time, some fairly fast. But I really feel like I'm always fighting to have that. But one of the things I love about a book tour, I don't know how you, when you go book tour how you use your time but a friend of mine gave me a great piece of advice she's like when I travel for business I only read for pleasure so she never tries to work on a plane when she's traveling for work she's like that's my time to read for fun it's totally transformed
Starting point is 00:22:17 my travel because instead of either working or feeling guilty about not working I'm like I'm just gonna I have this huge stack of books that I'm gonna I'm for pleasure yes, I'm like, I'm just gonna, I have this huge stack of books that I'm gonna, I'm, For pleasure. Yes, that I'm slowly reading on my book tour because I love reading on airplanes.
Starting point is 00:22:29 It's one of my favorite, favorite times because you're not interrupted. Yeah. It's quiet. You're just like, you've got nowhere else to go. You don't have to jump up
Starting point is 00:22:37 and deal with anything. You're just in your seat. You're not waiting for the Wi-Fi to load while you get your emails. No. Sitting there for five minutes for one email
Starting point is 00:22:43 and frustrated. Yeah. Like me last night. Oh yeah. I know that feeling or it's just like loading loading loading loading and everyone else get off wi-fi yeah i know um no but so yeah so i've been uh i love getting the chance to do some hardcore reading what brings you the most joy in your life reading reading this reading reading and writing probably i mean my family of course and my friends but i mean like my family i mean i feel like that's like understood it's like that's always like let's can we stipulate to the fact that um people are the
Starting point is 00:23:15 most important but in terms of activities reading and writing reading and writing reason most joy i mean i i am a person of very narrow interests i like that's basically the only thing i like to do is read and write. Is there anything that you're afraid to write about? Interesting question. I wouldn't write about something that would cause extreme distress to somebody close to me. You mean revealing something
Starting point is 00:23:39 or talk about them in a way that would hurt them? Right. And actually, nothing's really happened in my life. There's nothing I would disclose. There's no secret that I would reveal but if I was going to be like snarky I mean one of the things that I'm sure as a writer you felt this too you can get your digs in like there's sometimes you know you're like or or even to characterize something I mean it's it's interesting to me but um like my husband never reads anything that I write which some people find shocking I totally get it because it's like going inside someone's head in a way. It feels like in a way you've crossed a barrier that's
Starting point is 00:24:10 usually there. And I think for my husband, that just gives him the heebie-jeebies. So I wouldn't want to write something that would be really just for whatever reason, some observation or something that would just be hurtful to somebody. I write about happiness. I don't want to create tremendous unhappiness to the people I love by saying something. But A.J. Jacobs told me a good trick. This is good for any aspiring writers out there. I just got a new book in the mail today. Yeah. I love A.J. Jacobs. He's the funniest guy. And so he writes a lot of like, not so much now, but at one point he was writing a lot of celebrity profiles. And he he also writes um a lot about his own family he's written unflattering things about members of his own family and i was like well
Starting point is 00:24:48 how did that go over he said well i've learned this that if whenever you write about somebody you write about in some way that they're very attractive they will forgive you anything so it's like he said all these kind of mean things about one member of his family but he was like described him as lean or something like that and you're're like, Oh, all is forgiven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I don't want to get into that kind of thing. What about, um, any other fears that you have right now that you're facing since you're so focused on happiness a lot and talking about these things, is there anything that you're afraid of tackling any topics you're afraid of tackling? It's funny. I don't really, I don't know.
Starting point is 00:25:25 I'd have to think about that because what I feel more is like the pull to write about so many things. And I guess my fear is like, I don't want to commit to something that's not big enough. Like lately I've been wanting to write little books. Like I wrote this little book, which I haven't dealt with, which I'm going to do once the Four Tendencies is sort of out in the world, called Outer Order, Inner Calm, which is all about sort of like outer order, which is just a subject that I love. It's little.
Starting point is 00:25:51 Outer order. Yeah. Because one of my secrets of adulthood is that outer order contributes to inner calm more than it should for most people. Not for everyone, certainly. But for most people, they feel more energetic, they feel calmer, they feel more creative when there's orderliness in their environment cleanliness order but which for different people some people want like absolutely nothing on their desk some people want neat piles i mean some people love abundance they
Starting point is 00:26:13 like profusion but they but nobody likes to have a lot of junk around or a lot of trash or like a bunch of stuff they don't use anymore they don't even like what is this cable i don't even know yeah it's just sitting there because i'm scared to throw it away because maybe it's useful but i haven't used it in two years but what do you do you know it's just on the counter get rid of that um so i have all these like little books and so i'm like well should i do a big book next or should i do a little book i had this idea for this i'm like i've been obsessed with the subject of color i'm like i want to write a little book about color which has nothing to do with anything and no one will read it except for me but i just feel this compulsion to write a little book about color, which has nothing to do with anything and no one will read it except for me. But I just feel this compulsion to write a little book about
Starting point is 00:26:47 color. So I'm sort of like trying to figure out, usually I'm hit by a lightning bolt and I know what I want to write. And I feel this compulsion to tackle a subject. And right now I'm feeling pulled in a lot of different directions. So that's what I'm trying to figure out. So you're not sure. Because they all feel interesting. And so I'm like, what do I do next? That's what I'm trying to figure out. So you're not sure. Because they all feel interesting. And so I'm like, what do I do next? That's what I'm trying to figure out. How many times a day do you get, what's next? When you come out with a book, do you get that a lot?
Starting point is 00:27:15 Two or three, yeah. What's next? This is out right now. I know. But what's next? I know, I know. This is what I'm focused on. Yeah, you're like, what's next?
Starting point is 00:27:22 This. Yes, yes. But a little book about color, I kind of like that idea. No, I'm obsessed with color. Well, one of the things I need to write first is the Four Tendencies Quiz for Children. This is something that I've been really, ever since the book has sort of been on the horizon, many, many people have asked me to write a quiz for it. Because I have this quiz, which is at happiercast.com slash quiz.
Starting point is 00:27:41 It's a short quiz for adults. Happiercast? Happiercast.com slash quiz. It's where you quiz for adults. Happier cast? Happiercast.com slash quiz. It's where you can get the one for adults. Yes. This quiz. Yeah, and I'm coming up on a million people having taken it, which is amazing.
Starting point is 00:27:52 I know, a huge number of people have taken it. That's a lot of data, right? Yeah. Well, I had to do a representative sample because, of course, the people taking the quiz, it's a biased sample, so you couldn't use that. But I did do a representative sample to solve for that problem. But so many people have said, oh, well, you create one for children. It's a challenge because, of course, an eight-year-old
Starting point is 00:28:12 is different from an 18-year-old. But so many people, either readers or podcast listeners of the Happier podcast, have sent me suggestions, like teachers and parents and coaches and instructors of scenarios that might work for children, but I need to sit down and do that. It won't take long, but it's going to take a lot of concentration because it's tricky. Writing the quiz took a long time. It's hard to think of scenarios that are universal enough that a lot of people respond to them, but that also show you the difference between the four tendencies.
Starting point is 00:28:43 It was a big intellectual challenge. Wow. And where do most of the people take the quiz from in the adult version? Is it from the U S mostly, or is it from all over the world? It's all over the world. I think it's mostly from the U S but, um, but no, I get people all the time from other, other, other countries. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever feel like you're going to run out of things to write about? No, I don't feel like that. You have like a list of a million ideas. I do. I do. I do feel like I have a million things. And then, and then things that like the four tendencies, I mean, so I was writing better than before, which was all about the 21 strategies we can use to make or break our habits. And it was in trying to understand how people successfully transform habits that I stumbled into the four tendencies.
Starting point is 00:29:21 So I had no idea that I was even going to write about it until that book came out and people were just deluging me with questions about The Four Tendencies. And finally I was like, well, this is the book that I need to write next. So it wasn't part of sort of a long trajectory. It kind of popped into view. Do you ever feel like your podcast
Starting point is 00:29:40 has taken off in a big way? Do you ever feel like your books will become less read and your podcast will become more popular? And does that scare you that your writing is gonna be less relevant or meaningful to people? You know, just like, oh, why read when I can just listen? Well, it's interesting that you say that because I have been very struck.
Starting point is 00:30:01 Because your podcast is blowing up, it's huge. The Happier podcast is, yes yes and a lot of people will say like they clearly know me first as a podcaster really they know you're first yeah yeah and then they're like oh and then i went and read your books or something like that whereas for me my my book identity is my central identity and my my identity as a writer to me is central but um what i've started to see is really, I want to reach people however they want to be reached. And some people want to read a book and some people want to watch a live video and some people want to listen to a podcast and some people want to read a blog post.
Starting point is 00:30:36 And a lot of times, you know, at one time in your life, something makes sense. And then at another time, you realize something else makes sense. Or you have a certain, like, let's say you're walking your dog. Well, walking your dog is a great time to listen to a podcast. It's not a great time to read a book or watch a video. And so now, oh, you have a new puppy. Well, guess what? You've got a lot of time to listen to podcasts or you've got a new long commute. But then let's say you don't have a commute. Now you've moved to New York City and you're on the train. Well, this is great. You have so much more time to read.
Starting point is 00:31:07 So now you're going to read. So I want to be able to reach people wherever they want to be in whatever form they like to get ideas. For me, the thing about writing is you can get it exactly right. When you're speaking, unless you script it out, it's not exactly right. You don't find the perfect verb. The way if you're writing, you can be like, oh, first I had, you know, ask, then I had grill, then I had demand. Like you can get it exactly the right word and you can lay out a big idea.
Starting point is 00:31:41 I mean, one of the things that I've heard about the four tendencies is we talk about it a lot on the podcast um on the happier podcast and i it was a chapter in better than before and now people are saying to me i thought i knew all about it because i've heard you talk about it i read better than before but now it's laid out in so much more nuance and complexity because a book you can really get into those yeah subtleties that it's very hard to do in other forms. All media have their strengths and for a book, a big idea, to really communicate at many levels,
Starting point is 00:32:14 you need to do that through writing. Now, The Adventist Project, was that four books ago? Three books ago. That was four books ago. And was that your most popular book? Yes. Your biggest selling? That was the one ago. And that was your, was that your most popular book? Yes. Your biggest selling?
Starting point is 00:32:26 That was the one that, yeah, most people identify me with. Yeah. And how do you feel when you come out with a, you have this mega hit, I think you had a couple million copies sold,
Starting point is 00:32:37 or, right? Yeah. Mega hit, and everyone identifies you as that person. How do you feel as a writer when you still have new ideas, when people still associate you with that one idea How do you feel as a writer when you still have new ideas, when people still associate you with that one idea
Starting point is 00:32:48 and you feel like, well, maybe I'm not selling as well with these new books or maybe that'll be my best book or most sold book. Do you have those conversations with yourself of, I think of Elizabeth Gilbert. Oh, right, yeah. She's like, my greatest book is behind me. Like, I'll never sell 10 million copies of a book again, probably. Maybe. Right. But most likely not. Right. I'm going to go to the Oscars again. Right. Well, you know, that's interesting, because I never really thought about that. I mean, to me, I feel I still feel very close to the Happiness Project. So it doesn't and it feels very integrated into what I'm doing now. So it doesn't I think sometimes if you've really moved on, and you're in a totally different subject, maybe that feels like a chapter of your life or something, you know, like it's
Starting point is 00:33:28 sort of like your former self. And when you're asked to talk about it, it's like being an employee of your former self. It's not like who you are right now. Whereas for me, the things that I talked about in the happiness project are still things that are very much part of what I'm talking about now. Yeah. And so it's all feels very integrated to me. And it's exciting to me that so many people read it or recognize it, but it feels very much of a piece of what I'm still interested in. I could see how that would be difficult
Starting point is 00:33:53 if you were, because I know a lot of nonfiction writers, and for many nonfiction writers, the pleasure comes from, oh, I'm going to learn all about this, and then I'm going to learn all about that, and I'm going to go from kind of one world to another world.
Starting point is 00:34:08 So that could be discouraging if you felt like everybody cared about this, but nobody cares about that. But for me, they all feel very tied together. But one of the interesting things, though, in reading, looking at the Happiness Project in retrospect, is the thing that puzzled me when that book came out is so many people said to me, but how did you get yourself to do all those things? How did you get yourself to keep all those resolutions? And I said, well, I just, I made resolutions that I thought would make me happier. And then if they did make me happier, I kept them. And then they would just look puzzled and they would say, right, but how did you get yourself to do them? I was like, I don't really understand what you're talking about. Now I know I'm an upholder. This is what upholders are good at setting out or meeting out or an inner expectations. Of course it was easy for me.
Starting point is 00:34:48 So now I understand like what all those people were saying. So I feel like I should write an epilogue. Like, by the way, if you're thinking, oh my gosh, how the heck do I get myself to put down my device? And she makes it sound so easy. I'm like, okay, now I have an answer for you. That's your next podcast. Yeah. There you go. Right. Your podcast. Talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say has been the biggest transformation for you from your first book to this book? Well, adding the podcast was a huge new aspect of my identity. Because now some people are finding you just from the podcast and they've never read a book of yours, right? Yeah. So that's interesting. That's probably the biggest transformation yeah yeah is this whole new because i was a blogger you know and i did the whole you know south by southwest and and and the world of podcasting really reminds me of the world of
Starting point is 00:35:34 blogging at a certain point but blogging is much closer to writing whereas i feel like podcasting is a whole different it's much more performativeative. So that's been a big transformation. And I do it with my sister. So this is a collaboration, whereas as a writer, I always work by myself. So that's been really exciting to have like a partner and to do something with her, which has been tremendously gratifying.
Starting point is 00:35:57 And it's also just like a different way of working that's really nice. What's the biggest lesson you've learned about yourself since launching the podcast? Did I say like too much yeah when you hear yourself yeah yeah yeah yeah I know
Starting point is 00:36:11 I know I know I know yes you say I know too much I know there you go yeah yes
Starting point is 00:36:18 everybody's got their tick their I know I'm sure Christine edits out everything of all my ticks all the time bro yeah
Starting point is 00:36:23 or maybe she doesn't. I don't listen to any of my episodes. Oh, that's interesting. I can't listen to them. I listen to them because I do the show notes. Well, Christine does it all. Okay, she does it. So thankfully she –
Starting point is 00:36:34 Okay, so you don't have to listen. She edits it. She listens. I record and then I pass it to her and then I promote it. I share it out. I think maybe I listen to like a couple of them like with Tony Robbins or something the first time I had him on or something where I was like, ooh, I want to hear this. Yeah. See how it out. I think maybe I listened to like a couple of them, like with Tony Robbins or something. The first time I had him on or something where I was like, Ooh,
Starting point is 00:36:46 I want to hear this. Yeah. See how it sounded, you know, cause I was so nervous or in the moment. Have you ever gone back to listen to like your first or your second episode? I'm terrified. Oh yeah.
Starting point is 00:36:56 I'm terrified. One of them was on my iPhone and it's just like loud noises all around. And yeah. Keeping it real. I don't think I have. Have I? No. She's like, that would know she's like that would
Starting point is 00:37:05 be a good that would be a good you should do that for like a big anniversary like for your 600th episode play the first one i'll probably just cringe so i can't believe i did this i do high intensity weight training and one uh one day my trainer was like i'm gonna set you at the weights that you trained at when you first came to this gym and i was just like they were whipping i mean i had gotten and it was so it was exciting to realize how much stronger that i got so i think sometimes it's good to go back and look where you started the progress because you forget you know with like when you're making gradual change sometimes it's easy to forget to say wow look i really have learned or really have improved or i really have created um you know move forward what's the biggest skill you would say that you've acquired since doing the podcast
Starting point is 00:37:48 or like the – not being aware that you say like a lot, but something that you've like – like a big lesson? One of the lessons that I've learned is that it's very hard to predict what's going to resonate most with people. And it's always – because sometimes my sister and I will be like, oh, we think this is something that we're going to get a big response to. And then it's wah-wah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:38:06 And sometimes we're right. And then sometimes it's just like people – so just to take the most mundane example. So my sister – so in the podcast, we always give our – we take turns giving ourselves a demerit, which is some mistake that we've made that has dragged down our happiness. So it's like learn a lesson. You made a mistake. Do better next time. happiness so it's like learn a lesson you made a mistake do better next time so one of the things elizabeth gave herself a demerit was she had like 40 children to a six-year-old's birthday party and she didn't write everybody a thank you note and i was like i contest that demerit because i don't
Starting point is 00:38:33 think you should have to do that i would not expect myself to do that they gave you the presents in person he thanked them in person it's just totally unrealistic to do this i'm like 40 handwritten 40 handwritten thank you notes i'm like i just a lot of no as an as an up. I'm like 40 handwritten. 40 handwritten. I'm like, I just, no, as an, as an upholder, I'm like, I just simply would not expect myself to do that. And,
Starting point is 00:38:48 and so, and this was just like a drive by conversation that we had, you know, it wasn't meant to be like, Ooh, this is the centerpiece of this conversation. And we were flooded. It turns out that people have so many nuanced views about thank you notes,
Starting point is 00:39:03 written thank you notes. Receiving gifts. Yeah. Yes yeah yes i mean it turned and it was just this giant thing and you realize i was like i'm walking through the world having no idea about how people think about things and here's how this happens too like with being an upholder so one of the things about upholders is they're very good at saying like sorry i can't do that it's like i'm sorry i can't do that because It's like, I'm sorry, I can't do that because I got to go for my runner. I'm sorry, I can't stay out late.
Starting point is 00:39:26 I got to go to bed on time. Um, and that can make them seem cold. But what it means is that they're very, they're very good at sort of saying to people you're pushing too hard or I can't meet, I can't meet that expectation. And I,
Starting point is 00:39:39 what I didn't realize is, and I, and I knew intellectually that for obligers particularly, it's difficult to do that but then I found out okay so I've been sending work emails over the weekend and it had literally never crossed my mind not to do that it wasn't like I was like I thought about it and I decided it was okay it was like it never occurred to me not to send work emails over the weekend because my view was read it over the weekend if you want answer it over the weekend if you want if you want to wait till monday morning that's fine too
Starting point is 00:40:08 like whatever you like whatever works for you is fine i just want to get it off my plate i'm thinking about it i'm just going to email you so i don't have to worry about it so i discover because this comes up kind of sideways in a conversation in the podcast with elizabeth and then we're flooded with emails with people being like oh my gosh i can't believe it my boss is always sending me emails or you know or my co-workers are sending me these emails it drives me crazy I'm so resentful it's like I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that and so many kind listeners um told me how to use delay delivery and outlook which I now know how to do and so now I delay delivery until and really like floods of emails go out at 6 a.m on Monday morning You'll write it and then you'll put archive it.
Starting point is 00:40:45 Yeah. No, I just put it. You just said delayed delivery and it will just go. No, I do it. Well, Outlook is how I do it. Gotcha. But this was something where I didn't know that this was a thing because it's not a thing for me.
Starting point is 00:41:01 So I didn't know that I was like tripping this wire in other people's heads. Because you're very entrepreneurial. Yeah. I'm not working in an official team. It's like a bunch of different people sort of cobbled together. I mean, not anybody's boss. But, you know, so I'm in kind of a – it's not like there's an office policy where we all sit down and say like, oh, we're all going to commit to not – to taking a real break. So I really learned
Starting point is 00:41:25 something from that conversation again kind of accidentally got into this territory of how the four tendencies come into play self-knowledge understanding how other people respond to things and i did not see it coming at all so what part of it is you just don't know i don't know yeah what's been the most popular episode ever well in my mind the most popular episode is episode 10 which was way back in the beginning which is when we recorded me cleaning my sister's closet in encino california it was just like me cleaning out her closet i laugh every time if i'm feeling blue i go listen to that one because it was so funny. For you, it's the most popular.
Starting point is 00:42:07 For me, it's the most popular. That's the one that's the most popular for me. What's the most downloaded one? Do you know? I don't know. Well, we did for our one year into your anniversary, we did like a roundup show that was like highlights. And so those are super popular just because those are like best of episodes. That's cool. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:42:21 We got to do more of those. They are really fun to do. Like every 50, we should do like the top 10 moments. You know what I mean? It is. I think it's nice. We also did it because for people who are coming new and they don't know where to start,
Starting point is 00:42:35 it's always kind of nice to have like a, you know, like pick and choose which one you want to do. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, where do you start? Okay,
Starting point is 00:42:40 we'll start with this one. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's right. What would you say you think about the most what do i think about the most isn't that an interesting question oh my gosh that's so thought-provoking i think about um i mean i think about people i'm like why are
Starting point is 00:43:00 you you know like i'll read a memoir and i'll be, you know, like that's, why did he do this? Or why, why did this happen? Or, um, I don't know. I'm always sort of looking up, looking, looking up for these patterns. It's funny. I take a lot of notes. I take gigantic amount of notes. Do you use a notepad or do you use an iPad? No, no, no.
Starting point is 00:43:17 No, I, well, no, I, I type it into my desktop. Um, my, no, my, my, my handwriting is so bad. I cannot, I cannot. I look like a six year old child. I know. I can't, I mean, you I know. You can't read it. I'm like, well, that's no good. And sometimes, often, I will take notes on something that I don't understand why I think it's important. I'll be like, I don't know why. That just seems notable, literally notable. So I take a note about it. And then sometimes months, weeks, years later, it will become clear to me why something is meaningful. And I mean, like, for example, with the Four Tendencies, there was the Stephen Spender,
Starting point is 00:43:56 Stephen Spender, who's a poet, wrote an autobiography. And as just kind of in passing, he was like, oh, and as happens with many soldiers, all his inner discipline had been destroyed by the discipline of the army or something like that, something to that effect. And I remember writing that down and being like, huh, huh. I wonder what's up with that. Like, is that true? Does the army destroy inner discipline by putting an outer discipline? Like if it's true about the army, is it true about other institutions? Do I think this is right? Is Steven Spender right or wrong? Like, you know, I just kind of pondered it for years. I didn't, I'm like, why do I even care? And then of course, it fits perfectly into the four tendencies, because it's like, it's about meeting expectations and like, and how
Starting point is 00:44:38 expectations are met or not met. So I was like, you know, years later, it was like, oh, mystery solved. But somehow I'd picked up on that there was something striking there yeah so i spent a lot of time looking for stuff like that like yeah i'm always on the lookout interesting stuff yeah no notable things yeah yeah like i just read phil knight's memoir about shoe dog i want to read that it's good i read it on an airplane on a business trip yeah yeah but not but yeah but it's pleasure and yeah no it's good i read it on an airplane on a business trip yeah yeah but not but yeah but it's pleasure and yeah no it's really good several people that said like oh you should just read it's such a good memoir it's really interesting because you're like hmm interesting guy interesting choices what are what are three books you think everyone should read
Starting point is 00:45:18 besides your own um i think everybody should read victor frankl's man's search for meaning it's a towering classic of world literature but it's also like an incredibly compelling Saj, you're on. I think everybody should read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. It's a towering classic of world literature, but it's also like an incredibly compelling page turner. It's beautiful. It's thought provoking. It's haunting. See, a lot of my favorite books are books that I can't in good conscience
Starting point is 00:45:39 suggest that other people read because they're not to every, like I love Samuel Johnson, but he's an 18th century essayist and that's just not or like benjamin franklin's autobiography i love it love it love it love it is everybody ready to read a book by a founding father it's not that accessible to all readers so those are some books that i would recommend um Um, but I'm, you know, it's hard to,
Starting point is 00:46:06 I don't know. I love so many books. It's just like my mind. I'm just staggering under the weight of everything. How many do you think you've read? Oh, a lot. I read a lot.
Starting point is 00:46:14 Thousands. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like all, all I like to do.
Starting point is 00:46:20 I don't, I'm not well rounded. So if that's basically all you do uh what's something about you that almost no one knows about you except for maybe your family well i drink a ton of caffeine copy tea diet coke but anybody who comes into anybody who's near me knows that so what's like some secret thing i don't know i don't gosh i have to think about these things um i failed the national math exam in high school whoa yes i was an a student in math because i just learned and and i failed because it meant the way the national math exam works it's
Starting point is 00:47:03 like and i think the SAT used to work like this I don't think it does anymore you got a base score of 200 and if you got something wrong you got more points deducted than if you left it blank so if you left if you walked in
Starting point is 00:47:13 put in your name and walked out you would have 200 points I had less than 200 points because I'd gotten so many wrong so I go in to talk to my math teacher I think I was a junior or senior
Starting point is 00:47:22 and I was like how do you explain this because I am an A student in math and I like could not not do this. And he goes, well, Gretchen, you don't really understand math. You're just memorizing how to do it. And I was literally like, I didn't know that there was any other thing to do. I thought that everybody just memorized how to do math. I didn't, like, it was so far out of my conception that you could understand math. And that's what this test was meant to do. You had to kind of improvise. You had to solve problems.
Starting point is 00:47:46 You had to apply math knowledge, which I was completely unable to do. So, but fortunately for me, I do not need to do high school math in my current everyday life. I'd be screwed. Yes, I know. Yeah. Oh, major school math, I'd be screwed. I know. Yeah, I'm like, the calculator in the phone is like a major
Starting point is 00:48:05 bone boon to mankind i remember i was sick i think i had like the measles or something i had some weird disease when i was like a kid is measles even a thing anymore people have that i don't think so but you could have had chicken i had measles yes that's very retro yeah it was like i was seven or something and i I remember I missed like fractions that week. Uh-oh. They come up a lot. Fractions, right? Yeah.
Starting point is 00:48:30 I missed the whole like week or two weeks of this. And I go back to school and they're going over fractions. And it's just like I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't get caught up. And it was like I never got caught up for the rest of my life. Yes. It was like that one thing held me. I was like, no.
Starting point is 00:48:44 Then it was algebra. Then it was whatever it was next. I was like i just give up no i'm just gonna cheat on everything no just to get by no it's like with a like a language if you're like i never really got the subjunctive you're like you kind of have to get that under your belt before you can move forward yeah no it is it's that kind of um it's tricky incremental knowledge yeah what would you say is the thing you're most proud of that people don't know about you oh um i'm most proud of something that you've done or been a part of that people don't know about maybe well i was editor-in-chief of the yale law journal when law school which is like a previous identity that I had. Which school? Yale Law School. Yale Law School.
Starting point is 00:49:25 That's a pretty big deal. Yeah. And that was, I was very proud of that, I have to say. That was, and that's something that's just like now is not really relevant to my life,
Starting point is 00:49:35 so people don't know it. Yale Law. Yeah. Yeah. You're a lawyer? Or you went to law school? Yeah, no, no. And I clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor.
Starting point is 00:49:42 But a lot of people know that I clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor. So that's something that's not new. Wow, cool. Yeah, I don't know and I clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor but a lot of people know that I clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor so that's not something that's not new. Wow, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I have a whole lawyerly path.
Starting point is 00:49:50 Wow. Lawyers are great writers. Well, it's funny because sometimes people will be like, lawyer turned writer, Gretchen Rubin and I'm like, is there a deadlier phrase
Starting point is 00:49:59 that you can use to describe anybody? It sounds so boring, right? Lawyer turned writer and in fact, I have a couple friends who are writers who won't admit that they went to law school. I'm like, you went sounds so boring, right? Lawyer turned writer. And in fact, I have a couple of friends who are writers who won't admit
Starting point is 00:50:07 that they went to law school. I'm like, you went to law school, right? And they're like, yeah, I keep that under my... Didn't Jonathan Fields go to law school too? Yeah, no, he was a lawyer.
Starting point is 00:50:14 Well, not 20 years. Rich Roll was a lawyer. Yes, he taught. He practiced real law for a real time. Long time. Yeah, he did. I mean,
Starting point is 00:50:21 then I was only there for like two years, three years. So I got out pretty quick. But yeah, no, there's a lot of us actually you're right there's a lot of us um because i think a lot of people and i think this this absolutely describes me is a lot of people go to law school not because they want to be lawyers but because they're like well i'm good at research and writing and it's a great education and it keeps my options open and i can always
Starting point is 00:50:40 change my mind later and so it's a lot of kind of writerly people who go to it. But then the fact is, I know a lot of people who love being lawyers, but there are people who want to be lawyers. Really? You know? Yeah. It's like if you want to be a lawyer, then you're happy being a lawyer. But if you didn't want to be a lawyer in the first place,
Starting point is 00:50:56 it's like, well, that may not work out. Yeah. Like people don't become sound engineers by drifting into it. It's like you pick that. You know, but a lot of people drift into law pick that you know but a lot of people drift into law that's true a lot of people drift into medicine this is something that i've learned since um in my in recent years which i was surprised by it seems so arduous to be a doctor seems like a lot of work it does and so i would think like well you'd have to want to be and also it's sort of
Starting point is 00:51:22 you just squeamishness and things like that but a lot of people are like oh both my parents were doctors you know everybody i know is a doctor i'm really good at math you know math and sciences and people always said oh you should be a doctor so i just sort of stumbled into it i'm like wow that is a long road i feel like you'd want to just have you have a passion for like helping people yeah you'd think yeah and that's why you choose to be a doctor but well but a lot of people drift into it it's interesting because every year i give a talk to this group of first-year students, first-year medical students. And it's been surprising to me how often they're kind of like,
Starting point is 00:51:51 eh, you know, I'm sort of here. I know. I'm like, this is a lot of time and energy and money, my friends. Like, I would get clarity on that right now. You know? Don't go all the way down this road. What's the dream you've always wanted to do that you haven't done yet oh have my own television show i think that would be fun
Starting point is 00:52:12 about what happiness how to be happier healthier more productive more creative and what are you waiting for uh i don't know i've like i don't know i have to i should pursue that why do you want to have a tv show just because it'd be another way to reach a lot of people. It's a very, very strong medium. Probably the strongest medium right now. I mean, if you say television to mean video content delivered to people on a screen, because even the word television now, it's like... It's changing.
Starting point is 00:52:39 I know somebody who's like, oh, we don't have televisions in our house. And I'm like, yeah, but I know your daughter watches five hours daughter watches five hours of video content yeah yeah like the fact that it's not called a television set it's the same thing yeah interesting yeah okay so why is that a big dream for you just because you want to reach more people yeah it'd be fun it's like a new world to conquer what's it gonna take to make that happen well i probably have to sit down and think about it first of all cool yeah all Yeah. All right. What would be the ideal network or placement for this show? Oh, I don't know.
Starting point is 00:53:09 I haven't thought about it. Yeah. What about a PBS special? Doing something like that, getting it started. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. I think there are a lot of authors that start with PBS and then it would be interesting.
Starting point is 00:53:19 Yeah. Cool. It's all changing very fast. It is. I mean, that's one of the things that's interesting. And all of it. I mean, television, radio, podcasting, publishing. It's all changing very fast. It is. That's one of the things that's interesting. And all of it. I mean, television, radio, podcasting, publishing. It's crazy.
Starting point is 00:53:29 Internet, magazines. Like, magazines, crazy what's happening there. It's all happening so fast, which is exciting because you do feel like you could get in there and really have fun and do new, innovative things and maybe have opportunities that you wouldn't have had like five or ten years ago. innovative things and maybe have opportunities that you wouldn't have had like five or ten years ago on the other hand it's changing so fast you really feel like you need to keep abreast of a lot of changes because everything it's not so clear how to get from
Starting point is 00:53:52 A to B because B is not where it was. It could change in a year it could change I mean even something like Facebook how do you use Facebook I mean that changes constantly constantly how you use Facebook. I want to dissect this and we'll wrap. Constantly how you use Facebook. I want to dissect this, and we'll wrap it up with a few final questions,
Starting point is 00:54:07 but I want to dissect this with books, newspapers, magazines, podcasts, TV. What are the main mediums are we consuming? I guess social media, but kind of the traditional stuff. Radio, newspapers, magazines, books, podcasts, TV. Well, podcast isn't traditional true it's been around for 10 years it's been kind of like it's like legacy media podcast yeah i know it's like what do you what do you see is in the future if you can kind of you know predict what do you think
Starting point is 00:54:41 is going to continue to accelerate? Are books going to continue to be popular for people or is it going to be more digital books? Is podcasts going to be more popular than radio? Is newspapers completely dead or magazines still going to be relevant? What do you think is going to be the most relevant media? Well, the thing is with all these things, it seems to me like people want to create it and people want to consume it. The problem is how do you get paid for it? So people want to write books and people want to read books. How do people get paid to write books? Because that's changing. People love to read news articles and people love to write news articles. But how do
Starting point is 00:55:19 you get the payment to the people who are writing them because like because there's so much changing in the world of advertising or just or you know how what you could charge what can you charge for a book what is the right price for a book it's hard to know so i feel like i don't even really know and i feel like we don't know i mean if people you know people describe snapchat to you would you be like oh this is going to be a big thing you'd be like what is that like there's no chance that's going to work out like what's the like there's no chance that's gonna work out like what's the point of that and then it's this huge thing and it might rise and fall in the space of two or three years so i don't know i think we don't even know ourselves it's just like the
Starting point is 00:55:52 smartphone until the smartphone was invented we had no idea of many things that we now crave and feel like are fundamental right yeah um but so i mean what's what's gonna you know what about augmented reality stuff I mean what's that is like a whole new how are driverless cars gonna affect media consumption I feel like that's gonna be a big change
Starting point is 00:56:14 I drove my a Tesla from San Diego to LA someone drove it and I was sitting in the passenger seat yeah it was like a service
Starting point is 00:56:22 like a Tesla loop thing it's called it's like Uber for Tesla oh okay it's like kind It's like Uber for Tesla. Oh, okay. It's like kind of a higher end service or whatever. And the guy literally
Starting point is 00:56:29 just takes his hand off the wheel and is driving for like an hour in the lane and it is, it's unbelievable. It's slowed down
Starting point is 00:56:36 so you're always three to four lengths behind the car in front of you. Were you nervous? I was like, this is crazy because there was some turns
Starting point is 00:56:42 and he's like, no, it picks it up. It like, all those sensors pick up the lane you're in and everything. And I was just like, he was just on his phone. You're kidding. I swear to you. Like no feet, no hands.
Starting point is 00:56:52 Just kind of like, yeah, you can just be on your phone. You can do this. Like the car's got it handled. I was like, this is crazy. So he didn't even really need to be there. Or he had to get you like on there and off there. Yeah, it's like turning lanes or something. You turn the lanes yourself.
Starting point is 00:57:04 You do some other things. But essentially, you could just put cruise control and push a button. And then you say, yeah, I want to be like seven lengths behind, car lengths behind. And it goes back to seven or whatever. Wow. It was unbelievable. That's the future. It was amazing.
Starting point is 00:57:18 I was like, this is cool. If it works, it's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was crazy. It was crazy yeah so anyways uh we're going off here i know but but so but i think that that i mean if you could be in a anytime you're in a car you could be watching a movie or reading a book or writing a book not stressing about traffic yeah no i mean it's just it's hard to imagine like what that's going to do to people. To their, yeah, because I mean, people love it. I mean, they have this,
Starting point is 00:57:49 we have this insatiable desire for information, for stories, you know, for entertainment, for education. And it's just going to be a whole, you know, a whole new opportunity to do it. So where's that going to go? I don't know. Oh, crazy. Do you feel like it's becoming easier for you to write and get your message
Starting point is 00:58:07 out there because you've had success in the past? Or do you feel like, because there's so much more competition, it's harder to get your message out there for a new book. Whereas maybe 10 years ago when you had a book and it was like, Oh, if you get it in the cover of the New York times, it's like going to blow up and that's all you need.
Starting point is 00:58:22 And you're a bestseller. And now, I don't know, is there a million books a year that come out? And so it's like gonna blow up and that's all you need and your bestseller and now I don't know is there a million books a year that come out and so it's like how do you compete with all these other topics and people well funnily enough I think both are true I think both of your both of your alternatives are true I think it is easier for me to get my word out because I do have you've got a more known yeah and that but then the other hand, I think it is hard because there's just so much stuff that is tugging at people's attention. And people aren't all showing up at the same places the way they once were. So both are true simultaneously. What are you doing differently as an author to get your message out there then?
Starting point is 00:59:01 To make sure that your books are being, you know, getting in the hands of people. One thing that I really strive to do is to have a direct connection with my readers and listeners. I want to directly connect with them. So I don't want to have to depend on the New York Times to review my book for you to hear about it.
Starting point is 00:59:19 Because I think you were just in there. I saw, right? You had like a big cover. The Wall Street Journal. Wall Street Journal. That was great. Thank you. Yes, thank you. That was awesome. Yeah, it was a was a big picture i was huge it was like full page my mother was like oh my gosh yeah um but uh
Starting point is 00:59:34 um so but that's what i think having a direct connection is having the direct connection because then you're not dependent on these on these uh middlemen who might support you might not it might not be the right thing for them so they're not going to pick it up maybe like every nobody's looking at this anymore it doesn't have the social power that it once had doesn't have it doesn't command the same attention that it once had so you've got a but you know it's like and then even to do that people are like oh the email list no people aren't answering their emails oh you got to have a facebook group you know all these that itself is is evolving all the time how do you maintain a direct constantly changing yeah but i'm lucky because my subject it's like when people people
Starting point is 01:00:14 have given me so much insight and observation and examples um so i think for some writers they in their heart of hearts they feel like it's a distraction to be connected to readers and listeners because they're sort of like, well, I just need to go up and do my thing. But for me, it's just, it's so illuminating. The feedback. Yeah. I mean, it's just like with The Four Tendencies, it's crammed with examples of people. And I could never have invented those examples because I just don't have the range of experience.
Starting point is 01:00:42 You know, like there's one, it was a woman talking about being a missionary, LDS missionary. I don't know what that was like. And here she is, or, you know, or somebody like a doctor talking about like examining different kinds of patients. I don't know what that's like. And so, but so it's kind of jumpstarts
Starting point is 01:00:57 my understanding of ideas because people are constantly, or like I remember with Better Than Before, I talked about how some people are abstainers and some people are moderators when it comes to strong temptation that some people for some people it's easier to have none than to have a little bit so when i first introduced this idea which i got from samuel johnson by the way um speaking of samuel johnson i thought i was in
Starting point is 01:01:16 the very very small minority i never heard anybody talking about this except in the except in the context of addiction true addiction alcohol addiction cigarette addiction there people are like yeah you have to give it up altogether. But with everything else, people are like, indulge a little bit. Moderation is pleasant to the wise. It's not healthy to be too rigid, all this stuff. And I was like, you know what? I can't hack it. It's too hard for me to have moderation. And then I was overwhelmed with people being like, oh my gosh, I'm exactly like you. I didn't know that there was, I thought it was just me. I thought something was wrong with me. My husband kept was wrong with me.
Starting point is 01:01:45 My husband kept telling me I should be able to have one brownie or my doctor kept telling me to have half a dish of ice cream or my best friend can have half a glass of wine. Why can't I? And I'm like, this is the way some people are. I'm like this.
Starting point is 01:02:00 And it was so reassuring for me to realize, oh, there's a ton of people like this. Maybe half the world is like this. I don't know. I can't never really tell the numbers. But I wouldn't have known, I wouldn't have understood that truth if I hadn't heard from people responding to it and saying, yes, this is how I experience this, you know, or not. And so I feel really lucky that for me,
Starting point is 01:02:25 it really feeds what my work. Sure. It's not a distraction. Yeah, that's great. Okay. Final four questions for you. Okay.
Starting point is 01:02:31 Is this a lightning round? Uh, maybe. Okay. Maybe. The first one is what's the question you wish everyone asked you that, but they never do. Oh,
Starting point is 01:02:41 you're asking all these thought provoking questions that I feel like I should have thought about for a month. What question do I wish... More people would ask you. Oh, yeah. Where can listeners learn more about your stuff? I like it when people ask that question. GretchenRubin.com.
Starting point is 01:02:55 What question do I wish people would ask me? I wish they would ask... A meaningful question. No, no, no. I get it. A meaningful question. I don't know. I get good questions.
Starting point is 01:03:06 Then what's your favorite question that you get? How can the four tendencies help people be happier, healthier, more productive, more creative? Because I feel like that goes to the heart of it. Because the whole point of this is to make your life better. It's not just to... It's just not idle curiosity. Though idle curiosity is fine too. I think sometimes it's like a BuzzFeed quiz. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun to have a, have vocabulary and to sort
Starting point is 01:03:29 of put yourself in a, in a category. But, um, do you feel like we answered that question? Yeah, I think we did. Okay, good. Just making sure. No, you got there right away. Yes. That's why I hesitated to bring it up. Cool. All right. Well, this is called the three truths. I can't remember if I asked you the last time, but we'll ask it again. If this was the last day for you on earth, many years from now, you've written every book you want to do. You did that big TV show that you always dreamed about. Anything else you imagine, it came true.
Starting point is 01:03:55 Okay. Everything. And yet it was all erased from history. All your books are gone. No one has access to any information you've ever put out there. Podcasts vanish. You had a piece of paper and a pen to write down the three lessons or the three truths that you knew to be true about all your experiences in life. This is the only thing that would be
Starting point is 01:04:15 remembered by you, these three truths. Okay. What are they? What would you write down? Okay. The first would be be Gretchen. That's my first personal commandment to be Gretchen. Everybody has to fill in their own name, but I think that is the, that is at the core of a happy, healthy, productive life. Be, know yourself, be yourself. One is the days are long, but the years are short, which is like, remember that everything passes, enjoy it while it lasts. And the third thing is one of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy. One of the best ways to make other people happy is to be happy yourself. Ta-da! Three truths. Okay, good. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:04:56 Those are good. Well, before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for helping so many people heal themselves. Because I feel like people suffer when they don't feel happy. They're suffering, they're going through pain, and when they don't know how to get out of it, they don't know how to find happiness within, they continue the suffering in other
Starting point is 01:05:17 people and they create suffering around them. Yes. So you've impacted so many people through giving them simple tools to make them heal and find happiness and joy. And it's spreading throughout the world. So I acknowledge you for helping so many people. Well, I so appreciate that.
Starting point is 01:05:33 I want to make sure everyone gets your book, The Four Tendencies. Make sure to pick it up. You can pick it up anywhere right now. GretchenRubin.com has more information. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, all that good stuff. We'll have it in the show notes as well. And the final question is, what's your definition of greatness? I think it's living up to your aims for yourself. And some people have very ambitious aims and some people have less ambitious aims. But if you live up to your aims for yourself, that's greatness. Double high five.
Starting point is 01:06:02 Double high five. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this one. Another powerful episode on the School of Greatness podcast. If this is your first time here, make sure to tag me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and let me know what you thought about this at Lewis Howes on social media. I'd love to connect with you and hear your feedback on this episode. Also make sure to subscribe and leave a review over on iTunes. The new podcast app on your iPhone allows you to easily click a five-star rating and leave a review now. Before it used to be really challenging to leave reviews. Now you just open up your app, scroll right to the podcast,
Starting point is 01:06:46 scroll down a little bit, and you'll see right there, click on five stars and leave a review. I'd love for you to do that and let me know when you do so I can connect with you and learn more about what you enjoyed about this episode. We're building a powerful movement, guys.
Starting point is 01:06:59 We can't do it without you. We need your support if we want to continue to inspire the world, entertain and educate with powerful ideas, showcase important people's messages and spread it to the world. So continue to share the message of greatness. If you want to learn more about the school of greatness, check out the full show notes at lewishouse.com slash 541. You can also check out the full video, all the links, make sure to grab a copy of Gretchen's new book. And if you do anything, just share it with one friend you think this would be invaluable for.
Starting point is 01:07:32 Again, it means the world to me that you listen. And every time you share, it helps us get the message out there just a little bit more. And Donald Miller said, When you stop expecting people to be perfect, you can like them for who they are. Make sure to take that today and think about the people in your life. Think about the intimate relationships. Think about your family relationships, your friendships, the people that you work with, the people that are actually closest to you all the time. Stop expecting people around you to be perfect and start seeing them for who they are.
Starting point is 01:08:06 Start seeing them for the good that they do have and start focusing on and acknowledging that in them right now. I love you guys and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.

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