The School of Greatness - 545 Rupi Kaur on Love and Pain, Suffering and Joy

Episode Date: October 4, 2017

"Suffering and joy are the exact same thing." - Rupi Kaur If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/545

This is episode number 545 with number one New York Times best-selling author, Rupi Kaur. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. If you were born with the weakness to fall, you were born with the strength to rise.

Rupi Kaur. I'm very excited about this episode. Love connecting with Rupi in Toronto when I got to interview her. And she is a number one New York Times bestselling author and illustrator of two collections of poetry. After completing her degree in rhetoric studies, she published her first collection of poems, Milk and Honey, in 2014. The internationally acclaimed collection sold well over a million

copies, gracing the New York Times bestseller list week after week over a year. It has since been translated into over 30 languages, and her long-awaited second collection, The Sun and Her Flowers, was published in 2017. Through this collection, she continues to explore a variety of themes ranging from love, loss, trauma, healing, femininity, migration, revolution. Rupia has performed her poetry across the world. Her photography and art direction are warmly embraced and she hopes to continue this expression for years to come.

And I was so delighted connecting with her. And if you are on the show notes at lewishouse.com slash 545, you can see the full video. You can see the book that's out right now. Make sure to get a copy. Just loved everything about her. She's got a massive audience on Instagram. So make sure to check out more about her.

But in this interview, we talk about how she handled expectations for the second book to do as well as her first book. Also, why our idea of success is so skewed, the relationship between suffering and joy, what causes us to become our own enemy, and how to teach yourself to write from a place of love versus pain. And is that possible for us? Very excited about this.

Before we dive in, I want to give a shout out to our fan and review of the week. This is from Bryn and Baby Riley, who says, I listen to this with my kids in the car on the way to school so everyone starts the day in a good mood. I own my own business and work from home. So this gets my mind going and my kids love it. So it's now just a daily routine. My kids are only eight and four, but we have plenty of good tips and advice on this podcast that we can discuss.

It's motivating and gets me thinking about ways I can improve. And the advice is just so good. Guests are diverse and I learn something useful every time. Thank you for being an above average lifestyle coach. So Bryn and baby Riley listening from the car. We appreciate you. Thanks so much for your review and for being the fan of the week. And if you guys want a chance of being a fan of the week as well and getting a shout out

on the podcast, then go to the podcast app over on iTunes right now or on your podcast app on your phone. And it's easier than ever to leave a review. Just scroll down on the School of Greatness and you can see where you can leave a review right there. You just click one button, leave a review, and away you go. So thank you again, Bryn and baby Riley.

All right, guys, I'm super pumped. Love this interview with Rupi. Make sure to tag me and Rupi on Instagram story on Twitter, everywhere on social media right now. I am Lewis Howes. She is Rupi K-A-U-R underscore. And she's got over 1.6 million followers on Instagram and she has some amazing content there. So screenshot this podcast right now. Tag me at Lewis Howes at Rupee K-A-U-R underscore on Instagram and I'm excited to connect with you more over there. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Rupee Core. Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about where we are right now.

We're in Toronto and I'm with Rupee Core. So thank you so much for... Thank you for having me. Welcome me into your city and I'm excited to do this. We met a couple months ago in Los Angeles at the YouTube space. There was an event that Lilly Singh was putting on. We were both there on different panels. Yeah yeah and that's when I really started to learn more about you and became fascinated with your story your work and

how many how many people you've been impacting it's been amazing what you've been up to and all of my followers especially the female followers love you so I'm excited to share that with them this interview and you've got a new book out called the Sun and her flowers which is out now so make sure you guys go get this book it's really cool and you had another book that came out a couple years ago correct and what was that one called so the first book that I released was called milk and honey and it I actually self published the first one in 2014 and later on in, it was picked up by a publisher and brought kind of worldwide to all bookstores. Amazing.

Yeah. And were you doing Instagram before that and kind of just sharing your poetry? Yeah. Instagram was actually the last kind of social media platform I was practicing with. The first one was like I just had a, for years I had kind of like a private blog for my like paintings and my artwork because I was like, that's the direction I want to go in. And eventually that turned into more of a poetry blog where I would actually record the poetry. And like, I kept trying these different mediums. Like spoken word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like nothing was sticking until I think I came up with the concept

of kind of the design or visual elements of what you see on Instagram today. Yeah. Yeah. Now, there's not many mainstream poets in the world, right? There's not many people who have a massive following who are doing poetry. Are there others that you know of?

There are a few. There are? There are. Or maybe because, I don't know, it's just like the world that you know of? There are a few. There are? There are. Or maybe because, I don't know, it's just like the world that I'm from. But you're right. Like in the mainstream world of thing, like poetry doesn't really, it's not there. It's not the thing that, you know, you're going to get together with friends on Friday night and talk about, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you think you made this kind of mainstream? I have no idea. Is it even mainstream? If it is, that's cool. I think what you've done has picked up in a massive way for so many people where they're just obsessed with your information, your lessons.

And I think what we were talking about before is you were mentioning how you still don't have anything figured out. No. And it's a way for you to kind of express what you're going through, right? Yeah. At the time. Is that how you do your poetry? Yeah.

Yeah. It's like, like I said before, it's all just a side effect of what's happening in life. And the poetry is the response. Things happen around you. We all respond to them. And I have very emotional responses to a lot of things that are going on. And poetry is emotion for me. And so I always say that the poems actually write themselves in my mind and in my body before they're out on paper.

So I kind of already know what I'm about to write. The poem's already done by the time I get to my pen and paper and to the table to write it out. You've thought of it in your mind. Yeah. You started speaking it out to yourself. Kind of. Or it's like, you know when a song is on the radio and it's so irritating but it plays on and on and on in your head and you can't get it out? There's a lot of poems that kind of came to life that way.

It was like a 13-line thought that just kept going and going. And it was like, write write me write me write me and I was like no no no like nobody cares about you like you are not an interesting thought and it's funny because like eventually I have to write it down just to get it out of my system and move on to something else but it's those pieces the ones that are you know write me write me write me they're the ones that I think people really enjoy the most. But you've written, what, hundreds, thousands of these shorter little poems, right? Thousands?

I think that when I go into maybe even thousands now, because it's kind of like my writing process is very fluid and very natural. I free write every single day. It's kind of like journaling. And so sometimes a thought is two lines. Sometimes it's three pages. And only when it kind of something just jumps right at me, will I then take it, transport it to like a phone or a laptop actually, and then edit, revise, edit, revise. But I usually, like when I started to write The Sun and Her Flowers, I was like, yeah, like I just signed a book deal. Now I have to do this. I had to go, I had to print out all the work that I had done. And in my mind, I was like,

you suck. Like you have done nothing for the past two years. How are you going to write a book? Except sell a million copies. I know. And that's what I'm battling with right now. Like I'm unable to sit with all I've done and I keep pushing myself to do more, which I don't know if, I don't think it's been like a very healthy experience, but I arrived at writing this book with hundreds and hundreds of pages already written. Um, stuff that I'd been just, you know, journaling for the past couple of years. Yeah. Do you feel pressure to kind of do better than

what you did before? Oh my god. So much. It's just so... Because it kind of just took off, right? You sold over a million copies. Two million. Two million copies you sold? Two million and still going strong. It just, I think two weeks ago it was back on number one on New York Times bestseller list.

And it's been going for over 70 weeks. And it's like a train that won't stop. And you're like, okay, like, we need to refill the gas tank. You need to stop. But it's like, nope. And it just keeps going and going and going. It's been wild. So how do you set yourself up for this then emotionally for not being attached to the results?

Because I'm assuming you want it to do well. You want it to sell as well or maybe better or you have expectations. Yeah. So how do you? Kind of like I think I had expectations and pressure in like two different ways in terms of I pressure myself through the art and then even put myself and compare myself to the first book and so one reason I think that I waited so long and finally became ready to share this was because I didn't really want to create Milk and Honey number two. That's so unfair to a

book that is so that's given me so much. And I didn't want to, you know, kind of reproduce and repackage it and just send that out into the world. And it took time to really come into like a whole different world, which is The Sun and Her Flowers. And that's what I wanted to do, right? Like I wanted to create something different, but still stay true to the roots. But the funny thing is when I started to write The Sun and her flowers, I was like, oh no, no, no

No, this isn't the same now what's gonna happen? like everyone's gonna be like, you know, we didn't come here for this and there was that fear as well and then It's so funny because our idea of success becomes so skewed. So I was so unable to write for so long, it felt like I had my hands tied behind my back because I told myself this book would not be a success unless it also sold 2 million copies. Minimum, if not more. And that it also was, you know, got the same accolades and awards that Milk and Honey did. Hit number one and all these other things. Yeah, and so, and it was like that for months it left me like unable to be creative

and unable to make anything and I would just like curl up into a ball and cry all the time. But I think that's so unfair and we, that's so unfair. It's unfair to the art. It's unfair to the people that we share it with and to ourselves. Yeah, I had Liz Gilbert on Eat, Pray, Love. You know Liz? And she had mentioned how, you know, her first, Eat, Pray, Love was this massive hit.

There was a movie with. That TED Talk. Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah. It helped me through so much. How she was like, my best work is behind me probably. Or how it's, you know, how am I ever going to do this again?

And being okay with it and just working on the art. So why don't you, I mean, you talked about, you know, the art and the poems come from how you're feeling in the world, right? From different things you're reacting to. What was the earlier things in your life when you started doing poetry that you were reacting to? What were those things in your life when you started doing poetry that you were reacting to? What were those things in the world? I guess some of the earlier things for sure, and you see this through Milk and Honey, were how I was being treated as a woman in my world and how the women around me were being treated. And that sort of tension between them having to fight for their space was really what pushed me into writing

poetry. So I was writing a lot about early on, it was, I think 100% of my poems were about the domestic violence that women experience, whether it was within my community or other communities, or the sexual abuse that I saw the sisters around me experience. So it was really just fighting and trying to navigate those issues, I think. I never thought that I'd be able to write love poetry or heartbreak poetry, you know, or even like in this new book, there's like pieces about death and so many other expansive topics. But that point when I started out, I was like, I will never be able to write anything other than this because I needed to navigate that so much. Was there anything you were facing personally or was it more experiences from other friends and family members?

So it was definitely some things I was also experiencing, but it was also what other people were experiencing. And everybody always asks, like, okay, so, so, like, is this page about you? Or is it about, like, your cousin or your sister? But I always tell readers, like, I think it's unfair if I tell you what's what because I want you to see yourself in the work that's most important. That's the point of sharing, I think. Yeah. Well, what are some of the moments that are intimate and personal to you?

Can you share some of those? Or you felt maybe you were attacked in a certain way or judged in a certain way, where you started expressing on personal things? Yeah, so you mean in the poetry or in general life? In general. So I guess in all the themes that I cover, I've always had some sort of very personal experience

with that and if we're talking about violence I was with somebody who was extremely violent to me what at a very young age in a relationship and so a lot of chapter three covers those grounds and then there's just like early teens early teens and then was this an older person who was violent? Kind of. I was like, oh, I'm in love. But it's because my concept of love at that moment, like I was so hungry for affection because I'd never experienced any. Really?

That anybody who gave me anything. And I feel like these people, they know exactly who to find and who to prey on. And so I was stuck in this thing for like a very long time and unable to kind of let go. But it was actually when I let go of that experience, I think I let go of it in like the 12th grade. And that's when I turned to writing 100%. And I like within that month, I was doing things I would never do, like going to open mic nights and performing my poetry, when in fact I was very much like fly on the wall and like to be invisible. And then there's other parts where you'll see in Milk and Honey,

I do write a lot about body hair and those kind of things. And that's been a really big issue in general, just being a woman, but even like being a brown woman and we have like dark black hair and a lot of it sometimes. And so, yeah, um, being picked on by women and men and really trying to battle myself. Um, because I think there was battling other people was one thing, but really questioning myself, like, why am I doing this? Like, wouldn't I have more fun just running around outside rather than me being up in here, like, waxing for hours? And so really coming to terms with my own beauty standards rather than accepting what society's pushed on me as, like, what's normal. Because it's normal in their eyes to not have any, but the universe says that it's absolutely normal.

It's growing back for a reason. Yeah, so I kind of like, even in the pieces that I might not have experienced or it's my mom's experience or my sister's, there's always a little personal touch to it. I'm always able to kind of... You resonate in some way. Yeah, yeah. It's affected you personally somehow. Of course, yeah. Maybe not as dramatic as someone else of resonate. Yeah. Yeah. It's affected you personally. Of course. Yeah. Maybe not as dramatic as someone else's experience. Exactly. Exactly. How did you feel like you were

able to get out of this relationship that wasn't really supporting you? Oh my God. I don't know. Was it, was it physically abusive or verbally abusive or just holding you back in certain ways? It was all the abuses there are. Physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually, like all the abuses wrapped up with a really bow with like thorns on it. And so, no, no, not a pretty one. And I still sometimes, it's so funny because the human mind is such an interesting thing because there are so many days I wake up now and I'm like, that happened? Because my mind has like blocked out those memories. And there are some moments where, you know, I will be writing a piece and some memories do come back and I'll go into a panic like, oh, my God, that was real. And I have to calm myself

down. But I think about, I really think it was a miracle that saved me because at the point that I got out of it, like I didn't have support from anywhere. Like my friends had turned on me. Like I didn't have any like support from, cause, cause this guy was just like brainwashing everyone, including me most of all, and just isolating me from my loved ones, whether that was family and everything. And I was at such a, for somebody so young to experience such trauma, I was not in my own anymore. And so I wasn't able to, like I was, I had a very weak like mental state at that moment. And so I always say like it was really a miracle that saved me. Because I'd hit, there was like rock bottom was here, and then I was here.

Really? I didn't even find, there was no reason to live, for me at least. Wow. And that's what I thought. But something happened. And I remember a cousin of mine named Gagan, who I love so much, she was one of the few people to give it to me straight. Everyone else would be like, you know, I had a couple of very strong friends and they'd always

like, you know, be there to hold me. But she came in and she was like, I am sick of this shit. She's like, I am so tired. Of hearing you for like a year or whatever. For like three years. This guy is an awful human being and I am done. And she just yelled at me. So you were still with him during this process. At this point, we had a very, it was interesting because he would ask me to do something I was very uncomfortable with. And then the cycle would begin. I would say no.

And he would get me to do it by like leaving me. And like cutting me out for two weeks. And then, of course, I would end up giving in because that like it was like an addiction. It's like a drug, right? And so this was like another one of his things. He was like, all right, leaving. And I was like, oh, no, like I just it's fine. It's fine.

It's fine. Like convincing myself that I should just do whatever it is. And she was like, no, like I am not having it anymore. And something clicked right then in the middle of, there was like love in that, like in her passion, in her anger was like so much love and something clicked in me and was like, oh, we're never turning back. And I never did. And that's why I say it was a miracle

because I don't know how it happened, but the universe, something aligned and was like, okay, we're done. I think if we get to a point where it's just enough is enough. Enough is enough. Enough pain. It's like, okay, I'm just over suffering. Yeah. And it's like, there is nothing left to lose now.

Like the only way we can go is up. And that's it. So it was like baby steps. Wow. And up and up and up we went. Would you say that time was kind of like the lowest moments for you or the darkest moments for you? It's funny because I think so. But then.

Then the next guy. Oh, yeah. But not really. I don't think anything hopefully will repeat itself to be as traumatic as that moment. Because it was so prolonged and there was so much mess and stuff like, I think I've shared probably 0.2% of it, not even. Maybe I will one day share more through my writing. But it's funny because once we experience something and once we overcome it, we almost forget how difficult it was when you put time, like with that gap. And especially because my mind is, like,

really just blocked out so many of those memories. But I think we go through different versions of suffering. And one thing I really have seen in the last, like, year or two, and I do write about it in The Sun and Her Flowers, is that the idea of becoming your own enemy and me becoming that in the last little while is almost more painful than any external factors trying to attack me.

And I tried not to write about that because I was like, who cares about that? But I ended up writing an entire chapter about it and it's what I've really taught myself in the last two years. Like I worked so hard on, you know, trying to really respond to these other negative factors. But then it came to a point where I became my own worst enemy. And that was probably the most painful and is the most painful thing of all.

Wow. Do you think you'd be able to have as much an impact without going through that much challenge, pain, suffering? Do you think your work would be as powerful? I don't know. I don't even know if I would be writing if it weren't for those moments, right? So are you grateful for that experience? I am. Like I would say I have no regrets, even like before that there's been things and after that there's been things but i've taught myself like there are no regrets and all things happen for a reason and a wonderful thing that i do i don't know if it's healthy or

not is like anytime something terrible happens i always respond to it with art so me exactly so going through that and ending that responded with like I responded with that by going to my first ever like open mic night and starting to do this thing on a regular basis. I don't know if I would have done that otherwise. And I remember there's other things that happened after that. And every time things went wrong, I would just do something else. Like then I started a blog and then something else went wrong. And then I was like, okay, whatever. I'm going to start doing this.

And then I started my Instagram, and then other things went wrong. And it was like life became so bad that I was like, forget about it. I'm just going to publish this goddamn book because that's how I kind of deal with stuff and work through things. I have to keep myself really busy. It's like your therapy, yeah. It is, yeah. Do you feel like you have to go through challenges every single year to create then um do you think you'll be able to create from a place of love I think so and that was a challenge

like after the success of milk and honey like I gained a lot of stability that I didn't have that my family didn't have like Like financial stability. Financial stability, emotional stability. You know, it's interesting because I came to a place that was, there was lots of love and everything had settled finally after so long. And it was a moment that I'd been looking forward to forever. It's a moment that you would dream of. But then I was scared because I was like, oh, my God. But, like, if I'm not suffering, then how will I write again, you know?

And then I would, like, go out and search for suffering and create situations. Really? Sabotage yourself. You know, I'd be, like, trying to, like, fight with my friends just to be like, yeah, like, it's going to give me something, you know, like, move me. But what I realized was, like like that's so not true. And that's like working from a place of trauma and suffering. And we do not have to do that anymore.

And it is very possible to write from a place of love. It's just we have to teach ourselves how to do that. Because for so long, what I did, yeah, like we learned to teach ourselves to write through the suffering because that's what we're trying to write through and now I have to like reprogram myself to write through a place of like love or happiness or whatever that is because it's so possible why didn't you feel like you had the acceptance or the acknowledgement or love or the friendship or the support growing up um I definitely had the. I think I've always been so fortunate to have a group, what sometimes it was one person, sometimes it was three, but a small group of really, really, really strong women around me who are always there to hold me and support me.

And there's, you see that love in my writing. But I come from a South Asian family, and sometimes we find it very difficult to say I love you or talk about our feelings. Those things don't happen. It's kind of very rigid. And so growing up in America, I don't know how my experience, like my cousin's experience is growing up in India are probably different because that's the system they're used to.

But growing up here, it was like, okay, this is how it is at home. But then when I go to school, I see all the other parents hugging their kids and being like, oh, I love you and patting them on their head. And I'm like, oh, does that mean my parents don't love me? And so that was really, really challenging because my parents love me beyond words. And that's, you know, but they can't say that. But instead they show it in different ways. They couldn't say I loved you. No, they can't say it.

Still. No, it's like not, they don't say it. But then you have to really look for it in their actions. And it's always there, whether it's like my dad calling me every single day and being like are you okay is anyone bothering you and you know that's what he thinks of like while he's like on the road he's a truck driver and so um he's like on the road and he's always like calling me and he's coming up with ideas for like all this stuff and making sure that i'm okay and or even like even like him, he's never been like, oh, I am so proud of you for writing this book or whatever it is. Right. But I think the man

carries around a hundred copies of the book in a backpack because now every time I go to a grocery store or like a bank or something like that in Brampton, they, Brampton's my hometown. Um, they'll all be like, oh my God, hey, how's it going? Your dad was in here. He told us all this. Congratulations. And so I'm like, oh my God, Dad, you're embarrassing me.

That's great. That's what you're supposed to do, though. Yeah, exactly. What do you think is the difference between surviving and living fully? I don't know if there's a difference between them. Aren't they kind of like the same thing? I used to think that when, this was when I was a lot younger, that you would get to a certain place where you survived everything

and then you could just be happy. And I realized that that's not the way it is anymore. Living means to survive, whether it's small battles or big battles. There's always battles. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think is the biggest challenge that you face right now with everything that's happening in the world?

What's the thing that's affecting you the most? Me. I am- Whether it's happening to you or just in the world. It's happening in me. Yes. I mean, maybe not something's attacking you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, in the world, you're seeing things happen.

Yeah. What's having the biggest effect on you? I think I've had to really unplug from what's sometimes going on in the world. Because what I do and what a lot of other people do is like, oh, my goodness, this is happening. And it's a buildup. And we're like, we need to know, is there justice? Is there going to be justice?

So for so long, I would have my phone over here and I would just be like freaking out because you want to make change happen. And you're like, what can I do? How can I help? What can I do? What can I help? And for me, it just became really, really bad for my mind because I was like, okay, I'm not doing enough.

I should be out there. I should be protesting. I'm not doing enough. I should be out there. I should be protesting. I should be doing this. I should be, you know, giving more money to that and more money over here. And then I had to just be like, okay, we need to breathe and we need to meditate and we need to relax and unplug. And so I've done that. And that's my way of like unplugging, making sure that I'm mentally at a point where I can actually offer some sort of sustainable assistance and allyship and help. Do you think it's possible to end our suffering? No. No.

I think that suffering and pain, suffering and joy are the exact same thing. They're like married to one another, like life and death. And that's why whenever I suffer whenever suffering comes I like welcome it it actually makes me excited because I'm like okay happen to me because you know what at the end of you it's like the moon and the sun you know one goes down the other rises so well suffering will come up but eventually it's going to go for go for a little nap and then the joy comes it's going to go for a little nap, and then the joy comes. It's going to go for a little nap, and I think it's very, very cyclical.

Yeah. So I think there cannot be one without the other. I think we need suffering. Of course. Really? I think that if there wasn't suffering, would we really, really appreciate the joy? I don't think so. Well, I think we could also experience adversity and challenges and not have to suffer through them.

Yes, I think – Where we're like paralyzed and just like – No. How do I get out of this dark place? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think my version of suffering is definitely not like, oh, my God, we're in this dark place. But, yeah, like challenges and adversity. Adversity and challenges, yes.

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I mean. What do you think we can do to set ourselves up to win on a daily basis? To be more grounded, grateful, even in chaos that's happening in our lives. I think the first thing that comes to mind is like taking responsibility. First, you take responsibility and then you forgive yourself. Because it's hard to take responsibility because then you can fall into the pattern of being like, oh, I took responsibility of this thing.

Oh, my God, it's all my fault. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? But you have to take responsibility and be like, okay, it's okay. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. This happens to everybody. And it's taking responsibility of the little things. I think those are what boggle us down the most.

It's like when we get upset at other people or other things for not doing the things we should have done for ourselves. And so if we can take responsibility for that and then forgive ourselves, then I think we can move in a more positive way. Yeah. Is there anything you haven't forgiven yourself for? I am currently working on forgiving myself

for being too hard on myself. Yeah. I think that's the only thing I currently working on forgiving myself for being too hard on myself. Yeah, I think that's the only thing I'm working on that I have not forgiven myself for. Why haven't you? Because I didn't really know. I thought that being so difficult on yourself was like a good, good thing, which it is, you know, but to a certain limit, and I think I crossed that limit to a point where everything that I did, I saw it as not good enough or just in a really negative light. I finished writing The Sun and Her Flowers, and then everyone was like, okay, you should just relax and take a break. And so then I was like, okay, let me go do that. And so for a week, not even for a week, I think it was the second day in where I was just trying to do the whole Netflix and hanging out thing.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And I had a breakdown, and I was like like, oh my God, I've accomplished nothing this entire year. What did I do? I just sat around all the time. I just ate and I just watched movies and everyone around me was like, but like, didn't you just finish writing an entire book? And that's when I was like, oh, okay., now we're getting carried away. So now I'm backtracking and really trying to figure out why I do or say these things to myself and how I can really fix that. Sure. Yeah.

Is there anything else in the world you haven't forgiven? I don't know. I feel like responding to that will require deeper thought. Yeah. It will require art. Yeah, yeah. How can we start to love ourselves if we are stuck in this cycle of self-hatred? I think that the self-hatred is always like it goes back to thought.

And what I've been learning from the people around me is that you have to go back to the thought and fix the thought first. Does that mean change the story about the thought? Or first of all, be aware of the thought. Be aware of the fact that these are the thoughts you're having and that they're negative or whatever they are. And once you become more self-aware of them, then how can we change them? And then thoughts, it's all kind of a pattern. then how can we change them? And then thoughts, like it's all kind of a pattern, you know.

Thoughts, if you can change your thoughts, they'll affect your actions and then how you feel about yourself and then how you treat other people and it's all like a chain of events. But I think it all goes back to thought. Yeah. I'd love for you to read the poem, can you? Yes. You had one picked out, right? Yep.

It's one of my favorites. What's the context behind this one the context is when did you write it what were you feeling yeah so this is what happened two stories when I milk and honey was published through AMP in 2015 it was November and after, I wasn't able to write for a year. Like I just, I think life changed so quickly and I did not know, and I was not equipped with the tools to deal with that. And so I wasn't able to practice my art. And that was really challenging because then I went into a really dark place because I was like, oh

my God, it just started and it's already over. Like I'll never be able to create again. And it was so scary. And whereas, you know, everybody else around me, the publishers, the agents of all the folks, the wonderful team that I have, they were like nudging me and they're like, oh, so like about that second book though, you want to work on this like deal or not? And all these people online were like, you know, you don't post work online anymore. You know, you're going to be forgotten. Someone else is going to replace you. And I was like, oh, my God, sick.

I couldn't move out of bed for days. And so that's what inspired this piece. And a conversation that one of my really good friends had with a woman who was 50. that one of my really good friends had with a woman who was 50. And she was like, life is the greatest thing now than it's ever been before. And that really opened my lens up. Because before that, I was living in a place of what those people were saying, that you better grasp your moment right now or it's all going to be gone.

Whereas this woman was like, life just started and it's a freaking ball and it's fantastic. And so I wrote this piece and it's called Timeless. They convinced me I only had a few good years left before I was replaced by a girl younger than me. As though men yield power with age, but women grow into irrelevance. They can keep their lies for I have just gotten started. I feel as though I just left the womb. My 20s are the warm-up for what I'm really about to do. Wait till you see me in my 30s. Now that will be a proper introduction to the nasty, wild woman in me How can I leave before the party started? Rehearsals begin at 40 I ripen with age

I do not come with an expiry date And now, for the main event, curtains up at 50 Let's begin the show Ooh, I like it, that's cool Thank you. Yeah, we snap, we snap. Focus lamps. I wanna ask you a few more questions before we finish up,

but I'm curious, is there any question you wish people would ask you more that they don't ask? No. No, okay. Yeah, I feel like I get a lot of questions and I try to answer all of them. Good, Good. But do you think there's any questions that people don't really ask me?

I'm just curious. You know, I never know what people – is there anything you wish you could talk more about that you don't feel like you get to talk about or that people miss? Maybe they're not asking. Maybe there's something that you're really thinking about in your mind a lot that people just aren't aware of, that you wish they would ask you about. Yeah. Or you wish you would talk about more. I think I really enjoy talking about kind of the process of writing and the process of designing and just, and maybe I haven't found the space to talk about all of that. But for me, poetry is the words, but it's also so much more than that. And it's about how a book feels

and the paper the texture and the color and i always want to create an entire universe yeah i mean you have this unique i feel like everyone's trying to copy this now this is you know what i mean right i was definitely not the first person to create it but but it's like so clean and then you do all your own drawings right i do illustrate it illustrations. Yeah, illustrations. And is it bad if I call it drawing? Is that like, okay. I'm like an ignorant artist. That's also one thing. Everyone is like super scared to just be open around me because they're like, oh, no, no, no.

We've got to like be like, you know, we can't offend her. But I'm like, dude, it's chill. See whatever you want. And were you always into art at a very young age as well? Yeah, I've been drawing. I used to actually do, like, very hyper-realistic sketches and, like, acrylic paintings since I was, like, from the age of five. And I always thought that that would be my, like, line of work. But then I found poetry.

And the reason I brought the illustrations in was because I felt like I cheated on my, like, first love. And I, like, found this, like, new sexy form new sexy form who captivated all of my attention. And I was like, this is a little bit unfair now. Because I left the art behind. And so, and then I brought the idea of the illustrations and married the two. I think it's powerful. I mean, especially to kind of go on a different topic,

there's so many people who are artists or musicians who feel like they can't make money or can't build a business or can't do something and you're doing short little poems with little illustrations and you're making a lot of money and building a massive brand and audience around something that people think you can't do which I think is just a powerful example I think that if I think like if we shed what it is whether it's the poetry the illustrations or everything I think anything is done with real honesty it's gonna work and like with the poetry is like the poetry is just one medium of me expressing myself but I think that the reason

it's worked is not because of the illustrations not because it's short or not because it's packaged in a certain way I think it's because it's me being so honest with myself and that's what I hear from readers all the time like this is exactly what I was feeling or thinking but I just like didn't know how to say it and so that type of honesty really can get you far and you see that in musicians and painters and dancers and like all the arts, yeah. Do you have a routine in the morning or where you are writing every single day at a certain time to help you cultivate this?

Or is it just comes at random? In my dream world, I wake up every day and I have a light breakfast and then I have my tea and then nobody calls me, nobody bothers me. I don't have email going like beep beep beep beep and I sit and I have like two to three hours to just calmly write um never happened bro it only it it hasn't happened in the last little while um it gets difficult because then it's like you're trying to juggle for me I think the challenge is I'm

trying to juggle being maintaining the art and the creativity, which is the root of everything, and that is the most important thing to me. But also now managing this business that just happened to appear, and I have to take advantage of that and really cultivate that as well. And so learning how to balance that

with developing a team and creating gifts. Manage people, hire people and everything. So were you working before or were you in college when it was all? I was, I published it and I was still in college. And so you didn't have like a job before? No, I mean, I've worked since I was 14. And my program was really, really interesting because it was like a cooperative program. And so I was getting my degree, but I also had to complete my degree. I had to do five different work placements in different areas. And so many of those gave me the tools for actually self-publishing the first book. The design jobs helped me learn how to use Illustrator and InDesign.

And the web development jobs helped me really really mastered like the illustrations and that sort of things but yeah I was still I think when it came out I was in my last semester and like this was a moment like I thought nobody knew about it so like I secretly published it in the corner and then I went to class the next day and was just like walking around and like eventually people just started to be like yo like you did that and then i was like this is super embarrassing because like i feel like i'm so honest in my work and when we are you know at school or whatever areas we really hide a lot of ourselves yeah yeah i want to i want to put you on the spot for a moment okay and see what you can create I want to ask you to either maybe

you already have a poem memorized. Oh, no. Yeah, okay. Or just a message that you can turn into a poem. Okay.

I can't freestyle. You can't freestyle? It's all written stuff? It could be something that just, you know, already have then. Okay. Or a message.

Okay. It can just be a message. It doesn't have to be a poem. For, help me out here. For women. Okay. Who maybe have gone through a similar experience as you. Mm a message. Okay. It can just be a message. It doesn't have to be a poem. Okay. Help me out here. For women who maybe have gone through a similar experience as you or have gone through a challenging relationship where they felt stuck and trapped. Yeah. Yeah.

For women who feel like they've been put down in certain ways in society, bullied, shamed, whatever it may be. Similar experiences that you've felt. Yeah. What would you share with women? Whether it's just your own thoughts, a poem you want to make up on the spot. Okay. So one thing I always share, because I'm really bad at making up poems on the spot,

is that whether you have nothing or whether you have everything, there's hardships, I think, in everybody's lives. And everybody's going through them. But what always I've seen to be true and what helps me is like we always go outside to find power and to really figure out the answers but the power that you need and the answers that you need guess what like they're already in you and you have to reach out and like that is it so you've come like pretty packaged with the answer and the powers to reach out and like that is it. So you've come like pre-packaged with the answer and the powers to do anything you want and you just got to grab it and run.

I love that one. What about for humanity in general? Oh, no. There's so much happening. What's a message you would say? Let's say this. Let's say everyone in the world was able to listen to this right now. And you could share a message with the world was able to listen to this right now. And you could share a message

with the world about humanity. I think that one thing I've been trying to figure out how things could be better. How could things be different? And I think two things. I think we can listen a lot more and talk a little bit less.

I think we should listen to each other and we should be kinder to each other. And I think those two things paired together will hopefully one day help us understand and accept one another. Because we are so different and I know it's so cliche, but these things are cliche because they're true.

We're also very similar. And so we need to listen more, shut up a little bit more, and be a lot nicer than we are. Of course, of course. This is a question nicer than we are. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. This is a question I ask at the end called the three truths.

Okay. And imagine this is your last day many years from now. Okay. You've lived the life you want. You've written every poem, done all the artwork. Any dream you've had, you've made it come true. Okay. Had the perfect life. Yeah made it come true. Okay. Have the perfect life.

Yeah. That you want. Okay. But for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created is erased. Art, poems, videos, gone. Oh, okay. And you have a piece of paper and a pen to write down your three truths. The three things you know to be true or the

lessons that you would leave behind to the rest of us. What would you say? Again, I'm putting you on the spot. What would you say are your three truths? I think about this often, actually. Do you? Yeah, I do. I would say, I don't know if these are going to be three things, but it's things that people

have already said, so it's not original at all. But for me, it's happiness is the most important thing, and it does not come from any amount of success or any amount of money or any amount of fame. And so work on that. And at the end of your life, I imagine myself at the end of your life, like when I, I imagine myself at the end of my life, and I know this to be true, that these books and the things that I create or the things that I buy or whatever are not going to be the things that fill me. And I really hope at that point that I've really cultivated a relationship with myself and my loved ones and found happiness in that. And like, that's what's going to complete me. Yeah. Yeah.

Those are great. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Rupi, for opening up, for sharing your voice with the world, for using your pain and making it into your purpose to inspire other people and to support so many men and women who are going through hard times, to give them that inspiration, that moment, that catalyst that can wake them up and move them forward in a more powerful, loving way. So I acknowledge you for sharing your gifts. Make sure you guys get the book, The Sun and Her Flowers. Really powerful, very inspiring. Check her out on Instagram.

If you want to learn more, you can get more of a teaser there about her book um what else where else can we connect with you what else can we do where you like to hang out online besides instagram your website i've been doing a lot of non-hanging out online actually that's good yeah i used to hang out yeah i used to be on the internet all the time and it used to make me really upset when I got really busy because I had such a strong connection, like a one-on-one connection with, like, my Tumblr readers. And, you know, I was always, like, writing letters to them and this and that. But it's become so hard to do that in the online atmosphere. So now what I'm trying to do is figure out how to have that in real life. that in the online atmosphere. So now what I'm trying to do is figure out how to have that in real life. And that means trying to be in a healthy place where I can do as many

shows as possible and like meet people. I think I just want to meet everybody and like hold their hands and be like, hey, like how's it going? Let's just crack some jokes and have a good time. And I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Like, yeah, that would be really cool. Do a book tour. I'm doing one, but even beyond that, I'm like, okay, how can we do better and bigger? And, like, you know, I'm in Toronto, and our Toronto ticket sales went on sale.

The show went on sale today, and I think we're basically out of tickets. And now I'm, like, telling my team, I'm going to go back and tell them, we need to book the biggest space ever, and it needs to be free because I want all of Toronto there because I really want to just be able to give back and meet these wonderful people. Amazing. Amazing. Make sure you guys get the book. The final question is what's your definition of greatness? I think my definition of greatness is figuring out what you want and then working towards that, whatever that is, and being kind in how you do that.

If you can do that, you can strive for whatever you want to do and be kind to the world around you, you are great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Oh, I love this one. Make sure you guys share it with your friends. Take a screenshot of the podcast app right now that you're listening to, the School of Greatness podcast with Rupi Kaur.

And share it out. Post it on Instagram, Instagram story, Twitter, Facebook. Connect with me and let me know the thing you enjoyed the most about this. There's quotes back on lewishouse.com slash 545 from some of the quotes of today's interview where you can tweet those out, take a screenshot, post them on Instagram for your own creative content to inspire others. And tag me at lewishouse and at rupee, K-A-U-R underscore, on Instagram to connect with both of us. I appreciate you guys very much. And this episode, to check out the full show notes, all the stuff we talked about in here,

the full video with me and Rupi, go to lewishowes.com slash 545. You'll see some great quotes there as well. Pick up her book. It's a game changer. And I hope you guys enjoy it. Again, a great quote from Rupi. If you were born with the weakness to fall, you were born

with the strength to rise. I love you guys. And you were born with greatness inside of you. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.