The School of Greatness - 550 Make Love Last with Jefferson Bethke

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

"Love, at its core, is about seeking the highest good of the other." - Jefferson Bethke If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/550

This is episode number 550 with Jeff Bethke. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. There's a great quote out there that says, you don't marry someone you can live with.

You marry the person you cannot live without. We've got Jeff Bethke in the house, and he is a blogger, author, massive YouTuber, podcast host, husband, dad. He's got over a million followers online, and I was first in tune to who he was about five years ago when he put a video out that went viral called Why I Hate Religion. And it was before its time. It was a powerful video that kind of shook the world and was a spoken word of poetry. And I thought it was really interesting and insightful, how thoughtful he was. So it was fun for me to connect with him in person and have him on the

podcast. And some of his YouTube videos have been viewed tens of millions of times. And he's got a book out called Love That Lasts. And what we cover today are why marriages aren't lasting these days. Now, he's a millennial, and we're talking about this from a millennial point of view as well. Also, how men can be vulnerable and strong for their partner, the relationship between vulnerability and power, why marriage will not solve your problems. Oh, this is a big one and something that I see a lot of people getting married and then they get divorced within a few years. They think it's going to solve their problems and it doesn't.

Also, whatever you pour your energy into, you will receive back from. That and so much more in this episode. Also, big shout out to the fan and review of the week. This is from Yuri, who said, I always find great, great pieces of advice that help me focus on the inside and why it's so important to always start from within in anything. Thanks so much for the heart and soul that have been put on every show to help us listeners. Now it's time. It's time to go out there and do something great. So Yuri, thank you so much for leaving a review over on iTunes and for being the fan of the week.

And if you guys want to get your chance of getting a shout out of the fan of the week, all you gotta do is go over to your podcast app over on your iPhone or on iTunes and you can leave a review right there and get your chance to be a fan shout-out of the week. This full interview, show notes, and video is back at lewishouse.com slash 550.

So make sure to take a screenshot of this. Tag Jeff over on Instagram and Twitter as well as you're listening to this and let him know what you think about it. And let me know as well, at lewishouse. And again, the link is lewishowes.com slash 550. And without further ado, let's dive into this episode with the one, the only, Jeff Bethke.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got Jeff Bethke in the house, man. Good to see you, brother. In from Maui for the day, flying out after this. And you've got this new book out called Love That Lasts, How We Discover God's Better Way for Love, Dating, Marriage, and Sex. And you lost your virginity when you were 16 in the back of a car in a church parking lot to someone who wasn't your girlfriend. Is that right? I mean, that is the first three sentences of the book. Yes. Yeah, yep. Okay.

Now, 16, man. That's actually before me. I was 18. I remember saying, I wanted to have sex, obviously, when I was younger. Yeah. I was like, there was a senior girl

who was literally the hottest girl in the school. And she kept flirting with me all the time when I was a freshman. And I was so intimidated. I was so nervous. I had no clue what I was doing. Yeah. And there was an opportunity to go out into the woods, right? And have some fun. And I couldn't do it. Like something inside of me was like too scared or maybe it was my, you know, my moral values at the time was like, well, I'm going to wait or whatever.

It just didn't seem right. It felt right, but it didn't seem right. So I was like, well, I'm going to wait or whatever. It just didn't seem right. It felt right, but it didn't seem right. So I was conflicted. And I waited until I was 18. I was like, I'm going to wait until I'm with someone who I really care about. Yeah, totally. And until I'm an adult. Totally. Right?

But you didn't do that. No, and that's what I talk about in the book. And then the line right after the ones you just read basically says, you know, I don't say that to shock anyone. I say that's just normal. You know, statistics are showing it's 15, 16 on average. And then there's actually even some trends now, I think, because we've kind of reached the logical conclusion of an over-sexualized culture where now the trend is actually going down. It's been going up for like 50 years of like, it's been getting sooner and sooner for, you know, young adults, teenagers and all that.

Like 12, 13, 14. Yeah, but now it's starting to go down. No. Because I feel like there's almost like a, and I think it was an Atlantic article just recently that talked about there's almost so much of an oversaturation. Kids are almost over it by this point because by the time they're 15 and actually have any opportunity in that sense, we're so oversexualized with pornography and movies and shows and all that that it's almost desensitized intimacy.

And that's what I talk about in the book because it really kills intimacy in a relationship and marriage and stuff like that, that whole thought line, but yeah, it's just interesting trends for sure. Wow. It's crazy, man. Now who taught you about relationships? No one. That's what I talk about. I think I have a chapter on, you know, being addicted to porn for eight plus years, which is again, you know, speaking of that, there's, there's, I didn't put this in the book, but I just recently read, there was a guy who wanted to study effects of pornography on the brain. And so he tried, he's like, okay, well to do that, there's, there's, I didn't put this in the book, but I just recently read, there was a guy who wanted to study effects of pornography on the brain. And so he tried, he's like, okay, well to do that, like any good person who studies humans, you got to find two

sample sizes, right? You got to find someone who has been exposed and someone who hasn't been exposed. He had to quit the study because he couldn't find anyone who had never had, you know, basically who had never watched in any serious way in a large portion. And then I have another couple of chapters on fatherlessness. And so, and I talk about that of like, we are apprentices of something, right? Like I think we grow up latching onto something and we want to replicate, we attach and replicate. Like I want to be like you. I want to look like you. I want to talk like you want to act like you. And I do think fathers have a huge vital role in our lives to show not just men, but also children and gentlewomen, sons, daughters, wisdom and imparting how to find wholeness, how to find flourishing, how to find life.

And when we don't, I mean, we're at the point of statistically being so dramatically fatherless, you know, that it's just, it's interesting how it's affecting us. And that's what I talk about is no one taught me. So then you just kind of play catch up where you kind of just say, I'll just do what feels right, looks right, all that stuff. Seems cool, whatever. Totally. And so you kind of just go in that regard. And what do you mean we're being fatherless? What do you mean?

Well, I mean, and just statistically, I think it's somewhere in the 60%, 70% range of at least 60% or 70% of people in one point in their life will not have a dad in the home you know growing up all the way to 18 oh really yeah that's for 18 yeah exactly like 60 to 70 percent yeah not 60 or 70 percent how our father is the whole life but at least in some season in their 18 year children life it's somewhere in that range which is crazy what's the season mean like a couple months a year i think just probably like either like you know the dad leaves at 12 or something or the dad might leave at three come back at at six, just an extended season of like, they've had not talking about divorce where you're splitting time, but someone leaves for an extended period of time. Well, yeah. Just like they don't have a father in their life. They don't have a presence in their life. Um, and I think that has huge implications in the same way. What if a mother,

you know, and so, yeah. And so, uh, yeah. So I talk about that a lot in the book, how you just get to the place of just saying, well, I'm just going to try to figure it out on my own. And a lot of millennials, myself included, are trial and error, right? I'm going to try it, try it. And that's what I talk about in the book. Try it, try it, try it. And then we get into our mid-20s and then there's this kind of shattering moment of, oh man, the last seven, the last six, the last eight years just completely put me on a really unhealthy trajectory. And now I'm finally starting to realize that I use the analogy in the first chapter of Jenga, right? A lot of us are playing like emotional, spiritual, sexual Jenga, where it's like we pull out these pieces, which every time you pull out a piece, it makes the whole thing weaker. And I consider kind of that whole tower, our humanness, right? And we keep making these choices. But when we pull that piece out that direct second, after we pull it out, it doesn't fall. And so we go, Oh, okay. Like I'm fine, right? I'm fine. Keep doing it. We'll keep doing it. And then, okay, I'm fine. And then every time you do it, you're actually making your humanness weaker and weaker and weaker. And then it comes crashing down in your twenties. And that's when you realize,

oh yeah, the pieces I pulled out back then, the pieces I'm pulling out in college pieces, I'm pulling out in my young professional life are, was what actually made the crumble happen. And that's kind of what I talk about in there or that was my story. So then I just try to unravel that. What were you taking out? I mean, I think there's a lot of things, obviously I talk about sexuality in there, pornography, pornography, even just the more big picture ideas that you can't really tangibly put down of just trying to find wholeness and identity in the wrong things. For me, that was a sport. I was a baseball guy through and through, wanted to get drafted, wanted to play in the big leagues. I made it all the way through college,

played it in college, and that became a place of like, kid, that, you know, we would never say this language, but I was very much a slave to baseball. Meaning like the, how I did on the baseball field dictated my worth, my happiness, my worth, my, how my weeks went. Like you could like, like I, like my, my week was good or bad based or not. If I was a pitcher, um, if I had a good game or not. Right. And I think that's, you realize kind of how weak that is that, um, I was defining my whole life by this little nine-inch round thing. Isn't it funny that sometimes when I would win a game and we would do so well, but if I messed up on one thing and felt embarrassed, that would also ruin my week? Even if we won and even if I did well, and most of the time it's like if I still messed up or felt like I wasn't totally who I should have been. Totally. And I think that's in a lot of different realms of life, but specifically in a more athletic culture,

because a lot of people who go that route do have this. I know I did this tendency to try to strive for perfection, strive for a certain level that maybe you can't always achieve. And so there's going to be a lot of disconnect, cognitive dissonance and failure, which then you have to walk through. And again, no one there to shepherd you through that. And what about your father experience? What was that like? So my dad's around, love him. We have a relationship now, but growing up, I'm so growing up, never my mom and dad never got married. They, I have a sister who's five years older, and then five, and then they never got married then. And then my dad got custody of my sister. And then five years later, they got back together and had me. And so I just

grew up with a single mom, My sister grew up with my dad. I grew up with my mom. And I would kind of do the every other weekend like custody thing, you know, where I just go see my dad for a weekend and we had a good time and stuff. But yeah, not a strong presence in my life. Not certainly a presence of me asking for wisdom or insight or like that shepherding kind of mentality of just bringing me along in a gentle, tender way to teach me about life. And so I'm, to some degree, it was a bummer, but I'm actually, I think it makes me so grateful now having a son and a daughter wanting to just see, man,

I can be such a tender, gentle presence in their life. And I'm just super excited for that, you know, of knowing what I missed out on and how being able to actually gift that to another person, multiple persons, maybe even more if we have more kids is really exciting to me. Yeah. What do you think you missed out on? I think, I think again, that main thing, you just don't have a teacher. Like you don't realize, I mean, we don't realize that, you know, before 50 years ago, thousands of years, thousands of cultures, all religions, like predominantly had a patriarch in the family. And I don't, that word today is kind of almost like a swear word. And I agree with how it is, you know, used today of, you know,

this kind of the slave master dad and all that sense. I don't mean that. I just mean literally like this guy over the family that had a vision for the family, had a vision for the marriage, wanted to love his kids, serve his kids, bring them up in truth and grace and, you know, insight and wisdom and bless them and train them up. And so, yeah, I think that's what you miss out on. You just miss out on all those micro little million things over 20 years. You know, if you think about 18 years before you leave the house, it's hard to even quantify, but I think it's everyone who has grown up without a dad or even had a struggled relationship with their dad can say that obviously affects them. Yeah. What would you say are the things that you learn or what would you say are the things that you learn or what

what would you say the things that your dad supported you with the most growing up and what are the things that you that you wish he would have supported you on uh i love my dad and i would say he was um good at um and and this this also has some problematicness to it but he was good at showing his affection through things. I mean, I don't always think that is the best way. Gifts and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I get that, right? Like if I had a son that I didn't see for two weeks,

then I would want to make those 48 hours just straight birthday parties, right? Just like ragers. And we're just going to go all out. We're going, we're going to eat the cake. We're going to go to the Lego store. We're going to go to this. And I get that. Like that makes logical sense to want to do that. If you only have your kid for 48 hours every couple of

weeks, um, because you know, you have these finite moments to try to create an impression, create a relationship and, um, and especially a dad's heart to provide and a dad's heart for provision. But I think sometimes, you know, any kids who's been in that situation realizes, no, I wanted your heart. I wanted you to connect with me. I wanted you to give me wisdom and insight and ask me the hard questions and not let me kind of go through life blindfolded or dark or, uh, unaware. Right. And, um, and the cool part is I think, you know, and this is through, I think I've heard you talk about mentorship, you know, on your, your stuff. And, uh, you know, it took me a while, but then, you know, you know, I'm so grateful now of almost what I would almost call like emotional and spiritual fathers now, right? People that have,

man, have really, really helped me and come alongside me and say, hey, here's, you know, I've been married for 30 years. Here's a couple of pieces of advice, you know, and I've been running this business for 30 years. Here's a couple pieces of advice. And so I think now in my young 20s, I think I'm very much looking for that. And it's been, and then to see how, oh, this is how it should be, right? That we are created for this kind of like, up and down apprenticeship relationship. And I think that's how all of life gets passed down. And it's tended to be through the family. But I also think it's cool that there's, you know, a ton of opportunities to get it through just community and friends and people. Yeah. Why do you think that your parents never got married?

I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to ask that question. I don't. Well, it might have been partly age. My mom was like 18 in that realm and my dad was like 30 something. So that has its own set of problems. And so yeah, I think it's somewhere in that realm. But my wife always laughs at me. She's like, you never ask any of the questions. And I'm kind of like, not like I'm trying to hide from it or anything. I just kind of like grew up with that reality. And so I just assumed this is normal, this is reality. And so then I'm starting to realize through her saying, oh, you know, ask the same questions.

I mean, not realizing having an answer. I'm like, oh, I never asked. And so I'm in this kind of season of like trying to figure that out too. And it's, and there's some cool insight, you know, when you talk to your mom and you talk to your dad and say, hey, why'd you do this? Why'd you do that? Because again, learning from people who've gone before you,

including your parents is really pivotal. Why is marriage important to you right now? Yeah. And so marriage is super important to me because I'm married, I would probably say, with kids. And I think everyone has a different philosophy of life. But for me, I've found a lot of joy from not everyone needs to be married, right? I think everyone needs to be the best version of themselves, whether you're single, engaged, dating, married, old, young, white, black, you know, uh, artist, businessman, whatever,

be the best version of you that you can be. But for me, I'm married and this is what I do. And so for me, I I've starting to realize that there's a lot of joy in, um, like I, and I've even started to kind of study a little bit of just kind of past society civilizations, that there's a lot to be said of the marriage unit and the family unit to some degree as an epicenter that flows out into good business, good art, good culture creating. And that's what I feel like I'm learning right now is I feel like a lot of dads sacrifice their families and their marriage on the altar of work and success and all these things when I'm saying, okay, if I can be the best dad and husband, then first of all, that's all I care about, right? Like I don't care if I'm famous in

the world. I care I'm famous to my two kids. But then on top of that, I also think when I am the best version of myself in the family unit, in the marriage unit, then I also feel like that frees me up in an emotional, healthy way to bless and turn around and give culture something that's worth receiving. Because I feel like if you're doing the opposite,

sacrificing them for going your dreams, your visions or whatever, then I also think first of all, that's kind of like cheap. And I don't think the art speaks for itself and usually doesn't last. Or at least that's maybe just me. But when I see someone who's really successful, I say, what's your definition of success? You might have a lot of money, but your kids and your wife hate you. Right?

That doesn't seem awesome to me. But yeah. There's a way to create a win-win where you can not sacrifice your dreams. Totally. Where you could actually impact the world and actually serve a larger family as opposed to stay stuck with three people that need 100% of your attention and time 24 hours a day. What is that doing to you? And robbing the world of your gifts. Totally. And thanks for asking the clarifying question, because I agree. I'm definitely not this juxtaposition of either,

or I just think it's, what's the line, right? What's the kind of this natural progression. And for me, it's if you have a family and you're married, not if you aren't, if you have a family and you're married,

when you work on this, I think you will see blessing coming over here. I think you will see your business get better, your art, get better, your relational dynamics with your employees, get better. And think about how, I mean, even get really meta for a second, right? Talk about the,

the, the, the identity of a family. Most families who are very strong and who are very understand kind of what a marriage and a family is. Those are usually the people that, you know, pass on empires for generations, right? Like some of the biggest business we know, like the boardroom is usually a family, right? And a lot of us are actually trying to, we work for the company to serve their family's vision, right? Even though you would never say that because that's the family's name is not on the thing, but a lot of times it actually is the last name of the company. So I think, yeah, I think there's something to be said of just a bigger vision. And I think it comes down to multiplication or addition, right? So for me, I believe that in 50 years, because a lot of us

don't have long enough vision. We just, we want to try to get everything we can, build as much as we can by the time we die. I believe by the time I die, hopefully there's still two, three, 400 years of multiplication that's going to happen after that because of the 80 years of foundation I've set, right? We don't have a long enough vision. And the thing that happens because of that is what happens is a lot of us don't have that vision. And so we don't create processes and things to make that happen. When in reality, if you like multiplication is a better addition, what I meant by that is, you know, if I'm going to pour into these two kids, these three kids, these four kids, this family, my wife, you know, our vision as a family, I do believe a couple hundred

years from now that if they're doing that, if they get that vision, if they get that, and then they also turn around and then multiply that and go affect two people with that vision, that's multiplication. And you just do the math like 50, a hundred years from now, that's thousands and thousands of dozens of thousands of people. But if you just try to add people, meaning just like, I'm just going to add employees and go out and employ addition, never gets you nearly as far as a multiplication does. Why do you think, uh, so many marriages aren't working? You know, I think it's more than 50% divorce rate. I'm roughly, I'm not sure. And then

you probably ask the people that are married, you know, what are ones of them are actually successful in terms of thriving and feel supported and feel loved and, you know, still intimate in a loving way, you know, maybe 50% of those. I don't know. So is marriage something that we should all be striving for? And is it still relevant to where we're at in our lives? Totally. Based on the history of what marriage was intended for. Totally. Definitely not think it's something everyone should strive for.

Definitely at the camp of just like, do your thing, you know, like whatever you want to do, go do it. But a lot of people do have the desire. A lot of people want to get married. A lot of people want to build a family and have dreams and visions of that. And so what I would say to those people, if there's a specific group of people listening who either don't believe anymore or having a hard spot, I mean, to ask why our marriage is not successful.

I mean, that's like, shoot, there's a, we could talk for 10 million hours, right? But I'll try to, I'll try to, the most common theme that I usually see. And by the way, it sounds, it feels so awkward talking about relationships, you know, in an expert fashion when I'm like 28. And, you know, it's like, we almost joked that this book should have been called love that last question mark. Right. It's like, we don't know. Right. How long have you been married for? Five years. Yeah. But there is like, it's this tension of like, we have no idea and we want to sit in that humility. But there is, like, it's this tension of, like, we have no idea, and we want to sit in that humility. But there is, I think, something to be said of, okay, we are building processes, and we are putting our life on a trajectory that we are starting to see fruit from that a lot of our peers and a lot of my friends are not falling into, right?

A lot of my friends, you know, divorced within two years. Yeah, really. And pornography addiction just blowing up their marriage. Especially in, like, the church world? Sometimes. Totally, and pornography addiction, just blowing up the marriage, especially in like the church world or sometimes. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and sadly, it's just as common. Yeah. But, um, so yeah, so I'm not saying we're experts in any regards, but I do think we're starting to learn a thing or two. And one thing I've realized is five years of marriage is pretty successful in terms of like most people getting divorced. Yeah. To me, I feel like, man, we're still babies, which we are, but you're right. According

to, you know, that's like the Hollywood marriage right there, right? It's like, you've been married a long time. If you've been married seven years, I think that's what they call like the magic seven. So we're almost there. Well, what I would say is there's, there's this, there's this idea and this concept of confusion between covenant relationships, contract relationships. And this is one of the biggest things that I think has destroyed a lot of marriages. And what I mean by that is there's only two human relationships in all of life. It's covenant relationships, contract relationships. Let me break that down. Contract relationship is any relationship you have with another person. That one we get. It's any relationship you have with a person where

there's a contract involved, where there's an agreement involved that you're going to keep up your behavior. And then that will be the glue for the relationship. Or another way I put it is like the behavior is stronger than the promise, right? Like I promised to give you a job, but if your behavior is bad enough, you're fired, right? That's like at our jobs, you know, whereas, so it's like, that's a contract relationship. That's normal. That's fine. That's great. But that should be in its context, in its zone. The hard part is when we take that into covenant relationships, there's only two covenant relationships in all of life. And that's the marriage and that's only two covenant relationships in all of life.

And that's the marriage and that's the parent kid relationship. And a covenant is the exact opposite, right? So this one is behavior stronger than the promise. This one's promise stronger than the behavior, right? Like, like when's the last time like 10 year old Johnny spills Fruity Loops on the floor and you go, oh, you stupid idiot. Get out of the family. I never want to see you again.

You're fired. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like, give me your uniform back. Give me your name tag back. I'll take that last name. Thanks for having it for a couple of years, but you're good. Right. No one does that. But what happens is the huge confusion happened. And this is partly, you can probably

trace it to the industrial revolution. You can probably change it to the sexual revolution. You can probably change it to just around the globalization of the world in like the forties and fifties. But we have taken this contract relationships and put that not into the parent kid one yet, but it has definitely infected marriages. Right. In the sense of like, that's actually what we believe about really a better marriage. It's a contract, right? And it's like, if you mess up bad enough, see ya. I don't, I don't want to hang out with you anymore. And like, oh, you, your life's falling to pieces. No, I'm good. Sign that. I'm glad we signed the prenup, right? So you're saying it should be a covenant relationship, meaning it's not a contract, not a contract relationship, or I was, I think it's best.

And it fires on all cylinders when it's a covenant relationship and here's why here's when the rubber meets the road first of all make it clear as day i'm not talking about the exceptions of like you know domestic violence and abuse and uh serial adultery not talking about that i'm talking about the marriages where they basically just say like it it got really hard and it was not fulfilling me i need to go and that's what a lot of people say right i was even just at the airport a little bit ago and that's what literally someone said. I was hearing them over talk to a couple and he's like, eh, we didn't love each other anymore. It's like, well, what? Last time I checked, it's an action, not a feeling. But we have to work on that because it does feel like a feeling in our culture, right? And so we have to

work on making an action. Back to the covenant thing. Here's where the rubber meets the road, right? In a contract, you can never truly be you, right? Think about that. Like marriage was created to be this bed of a lack of a better term, or the center of intimacy of like, this is going to be the place where you are going to be known so deeply more than any other relationship you have in your life, right? And that is going to be a place of flourishing and of health and of beauty that's going to make you go out into all your other relationships and have a lot of vitality and life and strength. But contract, you can never be honest because why, if you're, if you're bad enough and if you're honest enough, and if you take off the mask and you're truly vulnerable,

well, then you're fired. Right? Like, Oh, I didn't sign up for that. I didn't sign up for that. But, but, but the power of a covenant relationship is when they take off the mask, you say, I still see you, I still want you, and I'm not going anywhere. And anyone who's ever had any experience with that, not even in marriage, but just in any setting of like friendship, parents, whatever, of like you take off the mask and you feel like you had a moment of vulnerability and someone receives you in that, that is one of the most powerful moments of your life, hands down, right? So imagine a relationship where you're together 50 years and you have that day in, day out, day in, day out. That's super, super powerful. But because we have a contract relationship, we're never honest and it blocks

intimacy, hurts the relationship, and you can never be vulnerable and you can never be honest. And that's, I think that misunderstanding has caused a lot of pain in relationships because I know for me and my wife, like there's no one who will ever know me better than her, ever. Even five years in, she knows things that no one will ever know. She knows how I operate more than anyone. And the reason is because we've committed when we promised to each other five years ago that we are going to hide nothing. We're going to be radically on the table with everything and honest and vulnerable. And there's these moments where we look at each other and again, you say, honest and vulnerable. And there's these moments where we look at each other and again, you say, I receive you in that. It's kind of like, you know, for lack

of a better term, it's like this, this nakedness. Right. And I think that's what marriage is. It's supposed to be this, you're supposed to be able to have this relationship of nakedness where they see everything that you are emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and they say, I still want you. And then take sex for that, by the way, that's a really fun picture of sex of like, okay, then sex becomes an outplay of that dance, right? Sex is not this thing to give you a bunch of pleasure, but sex is just the kind of the cherry on top to play that drama out of like sex is these two bodies coming together saying,

I see all that you are and I still want to be one with you. And I think that's a really, really powerful recipe for a successful marriage. Wow. What are some of the things that you share, the radically honest things that you share with your wife that maybe you wouldn't share with others? Yeah. I mean, obviously there's, I can't actually think of anything right now specifically that like, you know, just like, Oh, I've shared the specific fact with her that no one knows, but I would say, yeah, there's a level. Do you share like, like feelings of like,

Oh, there's a woman over there that I'm like super attracted to. Like, would you say something like that? If it's in your mind, like, Oh, let me be honest. I think we have a, there's a woman over there that I'm like super attracted to. Like, would you say something like that if it's in your mind? Like, oh, let me be honest. I think we have a concept of radical honesty in our marriage. And so, yeah, if something like that came along, then, yeah, I think I would be. I think of more the things that more play out day in and day out for us is the feelings of like our, you know, I kind of call it the like the little boy and the little girl, right? Like inside of us, the insecurities, how I'm feeling and like the things that I would never share, the things that I tried to use my life to cover up.

Those are those moments of, um, she knows like my triggers. She knows, um, the things that I am ashamed of. She knows the things that I'm really ashamed of. Well, I mean, again, I can't think of any specific example. I'm trying to think. No, it's a good question. Um, I think insecurity would be the biggest one that plays out most often in our relationship. And I think that's a true insecure. It just, in general, I think a lot of people do one that plays out most often in our relationship. And I think that's true. You feel insecure? Just in general. I think a lot of people do. Well, don't project.

No, totally. I think everyone asks similar questions, and I ask these too, of who am I? Why am I here? Am I good? I think specifically men, and I'd love to even hear with your research in the book, we kind of ask these questions of, am I good enough? Do I actually have what it takes? I have this burning desire in me to create, to build, to do something, to lead. Can I actually do it? Now, again, we don't ever just voice that

in the boardroom or whatever, but I think having those seasons or moments. And I've even talked about in the book, I've had seasons of clinical depression. And so to be able to have someone that you can be that radically vulnerable and honest with is really powerful but you know and someone who supports you in those moments that doesn't just make you wrong or make you totally bring you down and thanks for reminding me say man up totally yeah and thanks for reminding me of that like that's what that's why it's scary like it's not like oh this is all lovey fuzzy and you're so it's scary to be vulnerable because there's always the possibility of that person on the other side saying, No, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. And I think but but here's, here's the choice every person watching has to make if you want to

know true love. And I don't mean relationally, I just mean, like the capacity of humans to love, right friends, people, relationships, the thing that gives you that feeling of like, not just feeling but that like, you know, you're created for this capacity of love. To know that you have to be vulnerable. I think it was C.S. Lewis, the famous author in the, you know, fifties wrote Chronicles of Narnia and a bunch of other famous books, fiction and nonfiction who said to love is to be vulnerable. And he kind of goes on this riff after that, where he basically says like, you got a choice. You can totally be non-vulnerable. You can take your heart and put it up in a cage and lock it up and make sure no one ever touches it.

No one ever sees it. The minute anyone even gets close or sniffs out some vulnerability in you, you run away and you break that relationship. He goes, you can do that. You'll never know love though. Like you can do that. Go ahead. But you'll never know the true capacity for human relationships because it's a trade-off. To be vulnerable is to know true love. And you have to be coming from a place of security and wholeness to be able to put yourself in that vulnerable position. And so that's usually what I tell people first too, is like, yeah, it is scary, but you also have to know that no matter who it is, even spouse included, which I talked about too, like Alyssa is not the end all be all voice over me. And I

know that sounds weird, but what I mean by that is like she, even at the end of the day, like I'm not a slave to her reaction to me. Does that make sense? And so I think with that, when you're secure in that, then that can open you up to do it more. And then it creates this really beautiful cycle. Yeah. How much is too vulnerable in a relationship when, when women, you know, let me speak in general terms.

Some women say they want their man to be open and vulnerable and to share what's on their mind and do these things. But then when they hear them being vulnerable over and over, they're like, okay, actually, you know, I need you to be a little stronger. I need you to be stable for me. I need you to be strong. I need you to be here. Because if you're really weak right now, then I'm not going to feel secure in my life. And I need you to, like like not say that anymore totally you know it's kind of this conflict that men would go through at times right again not all men we have to be the stable anchor yeah and so women will say sometimes

that they want certain things but then when you give it to them and they say actually just man up like yeah can't show emotion right now like i need you to be strong totally otherwise i'm gonna break down totally how does a a man negotiate uh uh navigate that situation where they feel like okay i want to be open and not like lock my heart away and share with the most intimate person in my life yeah but uh she's telling me i'm wrong for this like don't do this don't do this don't do this yeah and't do this. Don't do this. Yeah. And it's constantly in conflict. Yeah. So how can a man show up powerfully and vulnerable so that he feels heard and seen? And how can women support the men in their lives to be that as well? Yeah. That's a good question.

I don't know if I fully know the answer, but I would say that the paradox that I guess plays out, at least in our marriage and marriages of our friends and people I've heard that are older than us is there's this weird thing. I think sometimes that's a, and this is a little different, but sometimes we believe the lie of like, we can't be honest because like what you said, we need to hold the family together. But there's this power of like, um, leading with vulnerability creates, and I'm not saying that like the family, the guys, the head of it, you know, but I'm just meaning like you can lead.

And as an example to your, your kids and your wife and your family, I'm in regards to vulnerability. And it's a bummer if the wife reacts like that, if there's marriage, there's marriages in this room and I get that. And I mean, listening, uh, that's hard because then what that says that, that, what that does is that stops the cycle of vulnerability. If you share, and then a lot of us have this as kids, this happens with parents, right? Like we, we,

you have the dad who just says like, shut up, get over it, stop crying, which is so brutal to kids. Right. And so detrimental to their life. Um,

and that a lot of us have are still unpacking in our twenties, but I think it's, and it's because that vulnerability cycle was cut off by someone not receiving the vulnerability. So that's hard. And I get that. And that happens, but you kind of then have to get back to the security of yourself. And like I said, in that wholeness and flourishing.

But what I would say is don't always buy the lie though, too, of like, like basically what I'm saying is when it plays out with us, it's like, sometimes I'll do that. I'll share and be honest and vulnerable. I'm really struggling with this or man, I, I'm, I feel a little uneasy about this decision we might make or whatever. Unless it says, Oh, thanks. Like I was feeling that too, but I didn't know until you said it, or I wasn't sure. Or like basically vulnerability has this power to draw others out. And it's kind of like, I think it goes with anyone listening for business, right? Like, like I want to work for a boss who he goes first, right? Like if someone's going to walk into the fire, he goes first. If someone's going to be vulnerable, he goes first, right? Rather than this boss that just demands something from his employees that he'll never do. And I think that comes with

the vulnerability and a lot of other traits that we have an opportunity as men to actually lead with that vulnerability. And it's so countercultural, right? Like for a man to be vulnerable, when I actually think a man being vulnerable is a sense, is a picture of power, right? That it's not just a man being vulnerable, but that's is a picture of power, right? That it's not just a man being vulnerable, but that's actually a powerful man who's very secure in himself. Yeah. A man who can cry, a man who can be emotional, a man who can feel, because we're taught so from such a young age, do not feel, do not feel. And I think that's super, super hurtful and super

detrimental to our society. Yeah. What about millennial marriages? You know, we talked about how people get married and then they're divorced within a couple of years. It's kind of the trend right now. Why do people get married so quickly when they actually don't know anything about this person? Totally. Yeah.

You know, you meet them for six months or a year and you think you know everything about them or it's like you have this connection totally why get married so quickly when you're just like well we know we know what do you really know yeah no totally it's one year yeah i mean people live together for a lifetime with their kids and they don't know still about like who they are and constantly growing and evolving. What would you say it would be sound wisdom to set millennial couples up for long-lasting success in terms of like staying together and feeling like they're thriving in their love? What would you suggest?

Don't go into, again, this is speaking just people who if that's the desire that they want to, you know, they want to get married. It's a goal of theirs. Don't go into it looking for something I cannot give. Marriage will not fully satisfy you. Marriage will not be the answer to all your problems. Marriage will actually be the opposite. Like if you got problems, marriage is going to expose them. If you have bad parts about yourself, marriage is going to make

those more amplified. Um, if you have a little bit of an anger problem, get married. You have a big anger problem. Um, you got a little bit of a porn addiction, get married. You have a worse porn addiction. Um, you know, be really frustrated with your kids and just kind of be a domineering leader, get married, that'll be worse. It actually kind of pulls these things out and that gets to the goal of marriage. To me, I don't see goal, the marriage is like, this is going to lead to my ultimate fulfillment and happiness. Those are byproducts, those do happen in a healthier relationship and I'm so thankful

for them. I see marriage as primarily not only the vehicle of vulnerability, but the primary vehicle for making me into who I want to be. Because when you have someone that close to you, when you have someone that close to you and you're waking up next to them every single day, you cannot hide anymore. Which means they're very easily and quickly going to see all your shortcomings, all your failures, and all of that junk that you can kind of hide from friends, family, the internet, employees, whatever. And so, but marriage, you just can't functionally do it when you're in that close of a space. And what it does then is it brings these things to the surface.

And for me, like I welcome that. Me and Alyssa very quickly from the beginning said that is one of the goals of marriage is this is going to bring this stuff up. And now I'm going to know what I need to work on. Now I'm going to know what I need to grow at. When I'm going to know what like, oh, that's actually like we have things in us that we're able to mute and sanitize that are actually worse in the depths of our soul than we think. And I think marriage is a really good opportunity to see what those things are. And for me, when you welcome it, then you realize like, man, I, like I, and I'm functionally saying, I think I've grown more in the last five years than I have in my entire life. And I think that's mainly why, because

I'm so able to have a partner along with me in this journey who we are able to kind of, it's kind of like, you know, like, you know, you sharpen a knife with another sharp thing or with another hard piece of iron or something like that. It takes these two things to sharpen each other. And that's what I think marriage should be. And you'll be severely disappointed if you get married thinking it'll just lead to all your fulfillment and happiness. And then that happens. And that's where most of the divorces come from is that huge cognitive dissonance and disconnect from, oh my goodness, I didn't sign up for this. And I think just being aware of what you're actually getting into is then like, oh yeah, this is hard. And this is a hard season. And man,

we're financially bootstrapped. And man, the kids are being really tough right now. And man, relationally, our marriage is not, we're not connecting. I don't see you. We're just busy. But when you realize the actual big picture, meta picture of what's going on, I think it allows you to walk through it. Just the awareness is like 90% of it, if that makes sense. So yeah, that's what I would say to that. And then practically speaking,

how do you make sure you're not getting in something crazy? I always tell, you know, you know, my friends who are dating and not married or even just looking or whatever, I just tell them like, like hang out with your, like hang out with that person with your friends, like, because that'll show you their true selves, right? Like, like you're with your, like hang out with that person with your friends, like, because that'll show you their true selves, right? Like, like you're like the, your boyfriend is a different

guy when he's with your girlfriends than when you're just making out and watching a Netflix movie late at night, right? Like it's like, it'll, it, that won't show you what marriage is going to do for you, right? The, the Netflix and chill. What'll show you what marriage is actually going to be like is hanging out in community with other people. Same goes with parents, right? Like I always tell ladies, like if you want to know, if you want to know what your boyfriend is probably going to be like five years in marriage, look how he treats his mom. Guaranteed. It'll be an exact picture of how he treats you. Right? Because once the fuzziness wears off and the butterflies wear off and it's just a covenant relationship, which a parent-kid relationship is, that's how he's going to treat you. And another way to say it too is like,

I always try to tell ladies like, how should you know if you should break up with someone or if you guys good news or bad news? Imagine having a kid that's exactly like your boyfriend and if that makes you cringe, you should probably break up. If you have a son, if you know your son's going to grow up to be just like your boyfriend in 20 years and that makes you cringe, you should probably break up. Like if you have a, if you, if you have a son, if you know your son's going to grow up to be just like your boyfriend in 20 years and that makes you cringe, then yeah, that's probably not a healthy relationship. Right. Right. Um, you should say like, yeah, he's not perfect and he's not awesome and he's a lot of failures, but I want, I, he, he's, he's, you know, leads with truth and he leads with love. Right. And he leads with passion and all those things. So yeah, that's what I would say to that practically, if that helps. What would you say is the biggest

inner demon that you're facing right now? Good question. That's coming up in your relationship in your life. That's your good question. That's being amplified because of marriage. It's a really good question. Right now I'd probably say, I mean, it doesn't, I'm not trying trying to neutralize it in any sense because we've worked through some serious big things previously in our marriage. But the one right now doesn't sound as big, but I do feel like just, man, lack of discipline. And I know that sounds weird, but marriage just exposes how- Like sloppiness.

Yeah, sloppiness. That's a good word of just like, man, I, like I am responsible for like, not just myself anymore. Right. And like putting food in the kid's mouth and stuff like that. And you just realize how your little decisions are amplified, right? Like I, yes, sloppiness and just having be organized and to be disciplined. And, and it doesn't sound like an inner demon, but it kind of is because it actually can wreak some serious havoc on your life. In regards to just being, it just exposes it, right. Just expose it. And earlier in life, I would probably earlier in our marriage, I'd probably say a more serious one would probably

be, um, just like I, I, uh, the, the lack of father in the home led to some, um, not unhealth, like super unhealthy emotional patterns, but just like, um, I didn't know how to fight well. And I mean, and then, and here's, and here's what I always tell couples now of like every couple is going to fight. Yes.

You just need to learn how to fight well and healthy. What would that, what did that look like then for you? I was, I was very much like, and it was out of insecurity. It took me a couple of years to realize this. I would be the person where me and Alyssa would get in an argument.

I, um, she's the person, I'm the person where I like to finish it. And remember, you know, like just, I'm right. Yeah. Last word. Totally. Like, and I, I want to finish it. I want to say the last word.

And also I don't want you to have like an hour, uh, to like go process it and come back. Like I'm, I'm, I'm geared up right now. Like we need to finish this talk. Yeah. Complete it. So I can just move on. Cause if we don't, then it's just, my head's just buzzing. Well, like, right. But she is the opposite, right? She's the opposite where she can't have, she doesn't like to have a constructive conversation until she's had some serious time to process. It's the worst way to come back. Exactly. And I'm just like a verbal throw up her, right? And so it's just talk about a recipe for not success right there, right? Like that, that is the one where the arguments were, you don't realize these again, big picture things

that are playing out, but that's the dance that played out with every argument with us of like, no, like you got to like stay here. And then she feels very much like, no, I just need time to process. Like you're killing me, you know? And then I'm just like, what are you talking about? Just like, we're talking, just answer the question or whatever, you know, everyone's been there who has that relational dynamic. And, but I took, you got to dig, right? And so I started to dig and I realized, okay, a lot of that's insecurity. Partially it's my personality. I like to finish just conversations. So my brain's not going crazy. Partially it was insecurity of like, I think, I think I traced it to fatherlessness. Um, kind of the abandonment of me growing up, not in a super healthy environment home. And what I mean by that is like, no, I was really fearful that if she walks away and this isn't finished, like we're not good. Like I didn't like leaving it on uneven terms. Does that make sense? Because that terrified me. Well, what if like, you know what I mean? Like it kind of brought up Does that make sense? Because that terrified me. Well, what if, like, you know what I mean? Like it kind of brought up all that kid stuff of like, oh, is she gonna, you know, abandon me or abandonment issues and leaving issues and rejection issues,

all that stuff that bubbles that up. And so that's a really good example. I think of the question you asked of like that amplify that. And we've been processing it together and it takes time, but it's, man, you just see it once, once you label things, once you see it, man, that's, again, that's 90% of the battle. It's like, we're just like, oh, no, go process, go chill. Like I need to work on myself. Like that's, that's a lie. I'm believing right now that's playing out in this argument. Right. So yeah. What would you say is missing in your marriage? Sleep, right? You got three-year-old and a one-year-old. No, what's missing in a marriage? I think a ton, right? Like I just so want to grow and learn and learn from people who have gone before us. And not just in marriage, but I mean, just again, as an entrepreneur, a businessman, hopefully a leader, hopefully a good dad. So I would say just a bajillion things. I can't think

of anything right now, but everything. That's what I'm going to say. Like I, I, so I feel like, I feel like I wake up almost feeling like the day is about trying to learn more, acquire more, get more, and not in the sense of wealth or success, but I want to continue to grow. Right. If you could scale your marriage from a one to ten, ten being fairy tales. Just killing it. Like unicorn. Yeah, the Disney movies, right? Yes, exactly.

Like Unicorn. Yeah, the Disney movies, right? Yes, exactly. Where would you rank your marriage life with all the kids, with this, with everything that's happening? Where would you rank it with your situation where you guys are at? It doesn't mean like you got to be killing it financially, killing it here for it to be a 10. You mean just kind of like the pulse? Yeah, yeah.

Where would you rank it? And let's start with that first. That's a really good question. I don't know, man. Tough, tough question. Like, rank your marriage. But I get the question. I'd probably say I feel like we're at an 8 right now.

And what would it take for it to be a 10? I think every marriage who brings kids into the relationship can understand this. You almost have to start back at zero. Like, it's not just like adding the kids, but it's like, okay, we have to learn a whole new rhythm, a whole new way of living a whole new way. And I think the one thing that every marriage can relate to with young kids is like, you lose your connect time, right? You lose, like, what I like to say is like, a lot of times marriages are facing, um, out into the world. They're facing, like they have a mission. It's either the kids or the job or whatever. And you're facing out into the world. They're facing like they have a mission. It's either the kids or the job or whatever. And you're facing out into the world.

But what you realize is if you're always shoulder to shoulder facing out into the world and you're not looking eye to eye, then you're going to lose intimacy, right? You're going to have, you're going to be going on a fun mission and it's going to be fulfilling, but you're going to, you also need the eye to eye. You need the shoulder to shoulder and you need the eye to eye. And I think the eye to eye is what gets lost a lot of times with the young kids, just purely out of function. Like you're literally just feeding them and wiping the diapers and throwing it away and

doing this. And then you, it's six o'clock. You're like, I'm ready for bed. Right. You know? Yeah, exactly. But I think really making it such a priority, anyone who has kids out there to make, and this is what I like to say, like me and Alyssa like to say, we are not, we are not afraid

to be honest with our kids that the marriage is more important than them. And what I mean by that is like, they're going to leave, hopefully the marriage doesn't, right? Like they are going to leave, the marriage will not leave. And what happens is a lot of families who put so much centering on this, this is more like, you know, not unhealthy families, but this one happens usually in the ones that have the picture of a healthy family of like the suburbia, the kids go to soccer and have all these things. And the kids, the kids are just so surrounded with love and encouragement, but almost suffocates them. And then what happens is the kids go off to college. And then the parents are like, who are you? Oh, I think I've seen you before. Did I meet you like 20 years ago? Right. And it's like, that's pretty much what happens. You just like, you have not connected with your

spouse like 20 years. And so, um, we are very honest to say like, no, we're going on a date night and we're not going to see you tonight, you like, our grandma's coming over. And to be able to carve intentional time, we also do this thing once a week where we pretty much call, I just call it like our marriage journal. And we just have these seven questions we ask ourself every week. Carve out time, go to a coffee shop, do it late at night while you're watching Netflix, whatever it is, but get out the notebook and ask you and be intentional with your relationship. Because whenever you're pouring into, you will receive a pouring out back, whatever you're pouring into, whatever you're dumping your energy into, you will get returns. And so

make sure those things are the right things. Yeah. Hmm. Uh, how does religion, um, support or hurt marriages? Good question. Um, oh yeah, there's a bunch of different ways to answer that one. Um, I think, see, and I'll say this and this is, and it's no, people only have to spend five seconds on YouTube to realize I'm the crazy Jesus guy. So it's like, there's no, there's no, um, hiding that there. I like to say, yes, it is very, very weird and ridiculous to say, I follow a guy 2,000 years ago, blue collar rabbi, peasant worker who died, you know, was basically executed by, you know, Julius Caesar. Like, I know that's very weird to say, not as weird to, you know, pretty much worship alcohol, sex or money or success, which a lot of other millions of people do. And they don't think that's weird.

But anyways, moving on. What I would say is, so with that, like, go back to the covenant contract thing, right? say is, so with that, like, go back to the covenant contract thing, right? When I talk about the covenant contract, that's a huge thing that I think also totally manifests itself in religion with marriage, right? Like, here's what I hear. Me personally, being a follower of Jesus, I understand that God's relationship with me is a covenant, not a contract. And again, think of how many people think God or why they said bye to him as a kid or left Sunday school or whatever. They usually think God's a contract, right? Like, like if you mess up bad enough, God doesn't want you anymore. Like he's just going to throw the towel on you and you're not really that awesome. Yeah. You're going to

hell, all that stuff. When I think God's a covenant God and he, that, that word literally comes from the Bible hundreds of times. And again, it's that same concept of, I think God wants that drama to play out of like, I love you with a covenantal love. And again, it's that same concept of, I think God wants that drama to play out of like, I love you with a covenantal love. And then what happens is then you realize, okay, then I can be vulnerable and honest with him and receive that, be who I am right now in my messiness, in my frailty, and then walk into freedom. And I think that's that whole dynamic, that plus the marriage, plus that just plays out like crazy. And I think, you know, at least the Christian tradition would make the argument that God set up marriage to be a divine drama of the outplay of him and us, right? There's this like that dynamic of the husband and wife to yet coming together as one, the covenantal love.

And God gets almost like God was kind of, you know, in Genesis, like pulling back the curtain and kind of saying, you know, like, hey, this is what I'm like. I kind of want to put something down there for you guys to kind of maybe get an idea of what I'm like. And so, boom, there's a marriage, right? The way you guys love each other, the way you guys forgive each other, the way you guys never leave each other, that is what I'm like. And, man, you might not agree with that, but, man, that certainly is not usually the people's first thought of when they think of religion or, you know, Christianity or whatever. So, yeah, but that's what I would say. Yeah. thought of when they think of religion or you know christianity or whatever so but yeah but that's what i would say yeah i love the deep you're scaring me with the size and the deep breath

but i do like them um how do people get the courage to speak up about the values that they have, even if they're not popular values. Good question. Or even if it's going to hurt someone or upset someone. Yeah, I think you just have to be coming from an anchored place. Like I said, the first question you always have to ask is, here's a better way to put it, if you live by people's approval, you will die by their rejection, hands down, hands down, right? So you need to ask yourself,

do I live by people's approval? Does what people say about me actually give me like, does that actually what fills the gas tank for me to run? And a lot of people, yes. A lot of people, that's why they're trying to build big businesses. That's why they're trying to make a really perfect suburbia family. That's why they want would, so that someone out there will say that they're loved and awesome and affirmed and great and whatever. That's, you got to ask that question first, because that's a really bad place to be. No one, it's unhealthy, it's hard, and it doesn't lead to any joy, right? Anyone who's been in that cycle, myself included, of living for the praise of other people, it doesn't get you anywhere. And it's kind of like the carrot on the stick, you know, it's just right out in front of you and you feel like you can

never get it. And then on top of that, the minute they reject you, devastated, devastated. When in reality, if you're more centered, more anchored and more whole in yourself and not tied to them, then I think what that does is in that frees you up to be honest and share and have courage and still do it kindly and gently and not just be crazy, you know, like a lot of, but, uh, um, but yeah, you can do it from a healthier place where you realize like, oh yeah, that does hurt. Like I wanted that friendship. Um, I really liked that person. Um, oh man, that was really hard to share with my parents, but I'm in a good place still. And that, that, that's different.

What do you get to step into to become a better man? What do you mean? What's the thing that you haven't stepped into yet that will make you a better man, a better husband, a better father in the world? Oh, I don't know. How would you answer that? And I just mean, cause I'm trying to like, think of like, yeah, where I would go or what you mean? I'd probably say, you know, having more courage in certain situations and you know yeah not being afraid of reactions or something like that okay now you know having kind of that i would probably say um similar but then also a little more tied to like risk in general of just like, um,

not being afraid to, to risk. I think again, and having to pre, you know, know this in myself that if I can get my place self to a healthy place, then you can risk more because you know, it's not the end all be all still being smart with that risk. But I think a lot of times anyone who's had a significant season of insecurity, whether that's a parent that was never around or whatever, you really struggle with risk because risk is the thing that can hurt you, right? If you risk, well, you might lose it all. You might lose it all.

You might go off the cliff. You might be rejected. You might whatever. So I'd say risk. I think I'm still really kind of in the middle of that one, not over it for sure. Yeah. That's a good one.

If men grow up without fathers, and I think you said 60, 70% of men. At least at some point, at some point, uh, what's the best solution for, for younger boys to learn healthy views of masculinity, find a dad and just like straight up,

just go put it on a telephone pole, right? Go put it on like Craigslist dad. Yeah. Seriously. Like, like, like,

here's my number. Exactly. And you mean the more appropriate term we usually use for that is like mentor, spiritual father, but go find it. Like, there's so many people who have lived such amazing, beautiful lives who I know having talked to a lot of old people, cause I'm such a believer in mentorship, old people, like it's just some demographic out there. Um, older people is they want, like they've earned it. They want to give it to someone like they've lived a beautiful and amazing life. Not everyone, but the people who have, and you like, basically

here's another way I put it and kind of what I did. Like I found a, like we, I literally found a family and a dad that I wanted to be like, and then I just said, can I, can we come hang out? Can we come to dinner? Can we chill? Can we talk after the kids go down? Can I call you? Can I, can we Skype? Just, you got to go for it. Right. And what that does is that has had profound implications, not only in my marriage, but manhood and stuff of that nature. So like, yeah, go find someone who you want to be like and ask them to take you under their wing. And I think, again, we've lost, we're so individualistic in the West. This has literally been something for thousands of years that cultures, that's how they've actually passed on information is mentorship and apprenticeship.

Even skills, like literally think about every, the way the blacksmith got his skill was because the blacksmith before him. And so, and we're really good at that. Guys are really good at that with business, but I think we can do a lot better about like the man's, the man's heart, the man's brain, the man's like, I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better husband. I just want to be a better man. Like I want to be kinder, more gentle. I want to just risk more. I want to love more. I want to be more adventurous. Then go find that person and go ask

them, Hey, can we just kick it once a week or twice a week? What do you think is your definition of masculinity? What should it be? Oh, that's a good question. Um, there's a lot of different ways to go with that one too. For me, the first thing that popped in my head was Jesus. Now that sounds interesting. Um, but, and think about how counter, think about how Jesus is not your average man. The dude cried. The dude seemed like, I mean, first of all, the dude got murdered by Rome. Like he didn't, you know, pick up a sword and go dominate anyone. Um, he didn't launch some huge business. All his followers left him right at the point of his death. But I think the gentleness, the tenderness, and the vision of him, his visionariness. I mean,

even if you don't agree with what he said, it's clear he's a historical figure, insane amount of documents on him. Just like he clearly was able to be secure in himself and have a vision that no one else was buying into and still stayed firm and anchored. Right. And so I think of that and I mean, and look how radical he was too, right? We're talking first century. You know, women were seen as second class citizens, even actual, like they couldn't actually even give testimony in court because it wasn't valid. A lot of other different things in the first century. And then you got this guy, Jesus, who comes along and is basically like, you know, hanging out with them, talking to them,

blessing them, having dinner with them, doing, breaking down all the social barriers, right? And just saying like, no, that's dumb, right? And so I think I look at how he treated women, how he treated the lower, the orphans. I mean, not women, but like the lower of society of like orphans and prostitutes and the aliens and people who a lot of times our society can discard. And to me, that's the definition of masculinity of like, okay, you have, your job is to go help and love and bless and serve, not try to make something big for yourself. Basically, this whole life was a life of service. And that's kind of how I define masculinity. Or another way to put it is, you know, there's this crazy story where Jesus washes his disciples'

feet, right? And again, first century, you know, they got their air Hebrews on, you know, like these sandals just walking in the dust and the dirt. There's pigs and animals, you know, crapping on the street. And that's just like on their feet. And it's disgusting, right? It's literally like, there's not just, I mean, people eat feet today. And we're like the most hygienic culture ever.

Think about 2000 years ago when it was just sandals and dirt, no showers, you know, an animal stuff. Um, and so it was, it was actually a job reserved for servants, a hundred percent servants, no one like you didn't talk to the servant. They would come in under the table. I think about just how shameful it is under the table. Um, wash your feet. And Jesus at this one story with his 12 followers gets down on his hands and knees and washes Peter's feet. And then Peter is so repulsed by it because of the like, whoa, you're this head guy. Like, no, he goes like, no, don't, don't like, don't do this. This is weird. And then Jesus says, if you don't let me do this, you have no part with me. Like leave, if you won't let me do this. And then when he's done, he says,

and as I have done this, so should you. And to me, again, that's that picture of like, that's a true man, a man of service of making himself low to lift others up. And a lot of times we re invert that with manhood, right? We invert like, I'm all about dominating and powerful, and I'm awesome. And I'm up here and look at me, and I'm going to crush everyone beneath me who's weak. That's like, that's just like fake, cheap, stupid power, right? And stupid, masculine, stupid masculinity, that's usually coming from a place of them not, you usually coming from the insecurity other places where they haven't healed in their past but yeah that's what i think of is there anything you haven't healed from yet in your past i think i've done some serious work uh the last couple years so i don't

know if i can think of anything dramatically but i do think there's always an ongoing journey i think the fatherlessness stuff can sneak up. I think the insecurity stuff can sneak up. Yeah, I think of all that kind of stuff of like, yeah, definitely still a journey, still a process, still in growth. And yeah, hopefully it'll be better tomorrow than today. Yeah, yeah. A couple of questions left for you guys, but make sure you guys get this book,

Love That Lasts, how we discovered God's better way for love, dating, marriage, and sex. Make sure you guys pick it up. Awesome read. A lot of cool stuff in here. Thanks, man. Final couple questions. This one is called The Three Truths. Oh.

And you've got a lot of, in the intro of this interview, I'll talk about all the videos you've done and how I first discovered you from the Jesus Not Religion video years ago. And I remember it being kind of like leading the way for these types of videos and this type of content before its time years ago. Now everyone's doing that type of stuff. Yeah, the spoken word, more artistic, yeah. But let's say this is your last day many years from now. And you've written every book you wanted to write

and done every video you want to do, and all the things you wanted to create you did. But for whatever reason, they're erased from time. No one has a copy of anything or can watch anything. And you have a piece of paper and a pen, and you get to write down the three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced. This would be your mentorship that you would pass on to the world.

What would be your three truths or three lessons? Man, see, that's why you're the best interviewer right there. Um, oh, first one, uh, I would say is love God, love others. It puts everything in its rightful place. It seems to kind of, so I almost have this like a, you know, picture of everything kind of go just coming together and just snapping in place when you are, when there's an appropriate relationship with God, healthy, and then specifically loving others, love your neighbor as yourself, meaning like every person that you encounter today is another person with another story who is not someone to be commodified, objectified, or taken advantage of, or used and abused, but is actually an opportunity for you to love and serve them. Second thing I would probably say

is, I'd probably say stop drinking the toilet water. And what I mean by that is, so many of us go our whole lives, whole lives, 60, 70, 80 years drinking the toilet water. And what I mean by that is, if we're in a desert, right? Like if you just put me in, you know, I don't know, some desert and you know, some field in Arizona or something like that. And I'm just about to, you know, there's no water, there's nothing to drink. There's no food. I'm dying of thirst. I haven't seen anyone. And I'm basically, you know, just that picture of just like the last day I am legend status, right? Whatever. Um, if you're in that setting and you know, you're about to die, uh, and a toilet bowl shows up, like you're going to drink that toilet water and it's going to be incredible,

right? Like that's going to be the best toilet water you probably ever drank. It's going to taste really good. And you're gonna be so glad that that toilet showed up. But if you're back home at your house and you're just kicking it and you're just like, oh, I'm thirsty. Where do you go? Right. You don't go to the bathroom. You go to the like the fridge, right. Or the sink. And what I mean by that is, and on top of that too, you don't, you don't go by, you know, you, when you're walking by the bathroom, you don't walk by the bathroom and say, okay, don't drink the toilet water. Don't drink the toilet. You're just like, no, that's gross. Right. And what I mean by that is because you have a superior pleasure. You have a superior thing that dwarfs the desire and the allure of the toilet water. And a lot of people, because we're

emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically in a desert, then when the crap comes along, we not only drink it, but we actually in that context thinks it tastes good, right? Like, you know, you can take super obvious examples like one night stands or something like that, right? Of just like, people do that because it feels good. There's some, it's giving you something, right? And it's, and it's giving, it's meeting some type of desire. But at the end of the day, it's not that it's like, you know, to take the religion, religious conversation, it's not like, oh, you're going to hell if you have a one night stand. And so like, don't do it. It's like, no, you just, when you have something better, you don't walk by that. You just go, no, I'm good. I don't need the toilet. Right. And so I think that's something I always tell

people is like, you got to find the true water. You got to find the true water. What is that for you? What's that place of wholeness and flourishing and centeredness? Um, cause when you have that, it dwarfs all the stuff that you're probably trying really, really hard sometimes to say no to. Um, and it just becomes a lot different conversation. And then lastly, what would be number three? Number three, I'd probably say, um, dude, these are good. These are good. Um, I don't know. Like, I mean, no like i mean no i mean like not this is what i said i mean these questions i'm like this is so good i you're making me think now i'm gonna go home and write you an email and say here's my third one i'd probably say the third one um

have the right definition of love have the right definition of love. That will change everything. Most people think love's a feeling or, and most people think love is about getting what you can get. When in, I've found a profound implication and a profound life transformation when I realized love at its core is about seeking the highest good of the other. So it's not about taking, it's about giving. highest good of the other. So it's not about taking, it's about giving. It's not about receiving, but it's about serving. And there's this secret backwards math equation that that's the, if you want the recipe for joy and you're looking for it, go there, go serve other people, go love other people, go lift up other people, go sacrifice yourself on behalf of their dreams, their visions, their goals, and what they want. And you'll see that there's the joy of that. And obviously, I don't mean the acceptance of someone trying to abuse you and take advantage

of you. I just mean go use your life for others. And you'll be surprised at how the thing you were looking for when you were trying to grab everything yourself, you found it in that option, not the one where you're trying to clutch and grab for it for yourself. So that's what I would say. Those are cool, man. It's good.

I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Jeff, for your ability to make an impact in people's lives through your message, through your videos, your books, through your experience and through sharing your experience with others, because it's not easy to talk about all the things that are going wrong or that you're your shortcomings and talk about those things openly but you're making an impact through all the work you're doing and i appreciate it man especially for millennials who maybe feel the most uncertain about marriage relationships love intimacy yeah and that was our hope with the book as we just kind of like i told you like we know nothing right like love the last question mark should be the real title but i just realized man

like my our peers friends you know like people that i'm in the community and life with we're all asking really similar questions and so if we have even like two cents of value then i just wanted to hopefully get it out there i love it make sure you guys get the book love it last where can we connect online with you my man just yeah search jefferson bethke or alissa bethke anywhere youtube social media you know, Insta Stories. Where do you like to hang out the most? Probably Instagram and YouTube. Yeah.

That's what I'd say. Yeah. It is. It is. Awesome, man. Okay, final question. What's your definition of greatness? I thought you were like wrapping it up and like,

and let's throw up another bomb. Definition of greatness. Definition of greatness. definition of greatness. Okay. This one might take a few minutes to break down, but I do feel like this one is something that really was helpful to me. And again, not to be the crazy Jesus guy, but let's go case study status. Okay. So we got two first century giants, Julius Caesar, Jesus, right? Historically speaking, who cares what they say, what you believe about them, if you want to follow them or not. Two giants in the first century. We know their names 2000 years later. Who else can you really say that of, you know, about even our lives is not

going to have that kind of impact most likely. We write about them. We talk about them. They both very much seemed to have a vision for the world and go for something. Let's compare the two, right? So you look at Julius Caesar, you look at Jesus. They both had a vision for the world. Jesus would obviously say something like the kingdom of God and kind of bringing restoration and peace and healing and blessing back to the earth would be his. And you have Julius Caesar, you could call it the Pax Romana, right? Everyone knows that, the peace of Rome, meaning like I'm going to... So similar, they sound similar, right? Like I'm going to bring in peace, I'm going to bring in order, I'm going to bring in everything to

full fruition. So those seem similar. Okay, so now how did they achieve their similar, right? Like I'm going to bring in peace. I'm going to bring in order. I'm going to bring in everything to full fruition. So those seem similar. Okay. So now how did they achieve their visions? Right now I would say very, very polar oppositely, right? So, so you got Caesar over here who said, okay, I have this vision and I'm going to get that vision. How? By killing people, by literally I'm going to, or by the sword, whatever you want to call it, or by violence or by coercion. Like I'm going to make people come under my reign and rule to achieve this vision, right? That's why they were one of the most military successful, you know, societies we've ever had. They expanded and their empire was bigger than one of the ones, you know, any we've probably ever seen before with a couple rivals. And so that was how he

wanted to achieve his vision. And that's how he went forward, is dominating coercion, violence, and just trying to grasp and grab for it. But then you look at Jesus, okay, vision of the world, similar but different, peace, blessing, restoration of the world. And you look at him, okay, how did he achieve his vision, right? So he seemed to be the very polar opposite. He said, okay, I'm not going to kill for what I believe. I'm actually going to die for what I believe. Which, by the way, make those like, I want to be a person who dies for what I believe, not kill what I, for what I believe. Right. And metaphorically speaking, killing for what you believe is very easy. Trying to go grab it and take it and force it. Anyone can do that. Right. Try to actually have the courage to die for what you believe. That's a lot harder. It's

a lot harder. He said, I'm going to, I'm not going to kill for what I believe. I'm going to die for what I believe. Right. And then he goes and says, I'm not going to use violence. I'm not going to kill for what I believe. I'm going to die for what I believe. Right. And then he goes and says, I'm not going to use violence. I'm actually going to, or coercion or force. I'm going to woo. Right. You look at all these things, these sayings of Jesus. He never once says you need to balance submission. You need to do this, right. Or else you're going to get put up on a stake outside of the main highway coming into the city. But that sounds a lot like this guy over here. Right. He never does that. He actually says, no, no, no. Here's my vision. I want to give you peace. I want to give you blessing. I want to give you joy. I want to give you a better vision for human flourishing and for yourself. Do you want in, right? He keeps setting these tables.

He has this picture of this table of like, you're invited to the table to feast with me, to have a relationship with me. You don't have to, you don't have to at all. Caesar doesn't do that. He forces, he courses, and he does that. And then again, would you ever see Caesar washing anyone's feet? Probably not, right? Now think about impact then again, would you ever see Caesar washing anyone's feet? Probably not, right? Now think about impact, right? So you got these two polar opposite guys. This one says, I'm going to die for what I believe. And then think about how these two visions actually clashed.

Like who actually killed this guy over here? This guy, right? Like the actual most brutal torture instrument ever invented by a human brain was invented by the Romans, crucifixion, right? And crucifixion, you actually didn't even die by being nailed to the cross. You died by asphyxiation. You died by suffocation because you were literally just hanging there where your lungs would start to collapse after about a day or two. They purposely invented it to bring the most pain

and torture on someone. And Jesus actually comes basically into the head of that spear. And at that moment, who does it look like? Whose vision one looks like this guy's one, right? Looks like Caesar's one looks like the force, the coercion, the power one. And then you got over here. I mean, look 2000 years later. So now, now that was so in that day, it looks like this guy won 2000 years later. I mean, you can argue, obviously, you know, it still looks like there's a lot of crap out in the world. But from an argue, just from a pure impact standpoint, you got to say Jesus, you got to say Jesus, billions of followers, billions, right? So even if you disagree with them, even if you think he's

just nonsense and crazy, you also have to agree with the fact he had a much, much, much bigger impact than the guy who believed in force and coercion and power and killing for what he believes. And so that's how I define greatness. I think, man, there's only two visions in the world, and I'm going to stay in this lane, right? The lane of service, the lane of sacrifice, the lane of not killing but dying for what I believe. And I think the numbers even speak for itself from a pure impact standpoint. It seems like even though in that moment, he might have lost, it seems like in that moment, there's a lot of people still talking about Jesus, not a very many people talking about Caesar, you know, or at least his vision. So, yeah, that's what I would say. Greatness. Great definition and probably the longest,

Jeff. I appreciate you so much. You're good. You're good, brother. Appreciate you. And there you have it, my friends. If you enjoyed this one one make sure to let me know and share it with your friends lewishouse.com slash 550 tag myself at lewishouse and jeff over on social media and let us know what you enjoyed about this the most once again i hope you guys enjoyed this one it means a lot to me that you continue to listen we've got some massive interviews coming up and also a lot of you have been requesting for me to do more solo rounds so i promise i'll be doing more of that here in the coming weeks as well got some big things to talk about from the recap of summit of greatness and how it all went down also so many other things that are happening behind the scenes that i want to share with you

but they just haven't come out yet and I can't say them yet. So make sure to stay tuned for the following weeks of episodes. It's going to be a blast guys in the next couple of weeks. So thank you guys again for all that you do to make a difference in your lives and in the world. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.